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Ok, this question seems fairly obvious, but it appears that I am not explaining the answer correctly (or, in fact, the rules are truly unclear).

As an example, a Marine player has a Terminator squad in Reserves. At the top of the Space Marine player's turn 2, he rolls a 4. Now, the player states he can wait until any time in his movement phase to actually try to bring them onto the table. This enables him to rush up a Bike Scout squad w/ a Teleport Homer (which was hiding out of LOS) close to the enemy lines and then the Terminators come in with the aid of the Homer.

We've read the section for Deep Strike and Reserves and he insists it is unclear that they have to be place on the table at the beginning of the turn, as soon as he rolls that they become available.

Are the Reserves and Deep Strike rules unclear? When exactly do Deep Strikers have to be placed on the table? The sequence of this can drastically alter games (think of a Lysanderwing with this ability).

Help would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

From page 85 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook:

When a reserve unit arrives, it must move on...

The unit arrives as soon as the successful roll is made.

i had that issue once before

see p 84/85 in the BBB read the note at the end of the reserve rule section

He has to have the bikes in position the turn before. and risk the shooting and failing the roll and having his bikes up Crap Creek sans paddle. Just because someone wishes it so, or thinks it'd be a "sensible thing", it does not make it so.

Of course in a GT you might end up just D6ing it, if you or the Judge can't find the relevant page of rules.

Ghaz is spot on.  Sadly, so is Killkrazy.

Unfortunately almost everyone playes reserves wrong, and does all the rolls, then moves the units on (or deep strikes them) afterward, when the rules clearly state, they must move on as soon as they are available.

Ultimately it is make a roll, move a unit on, make a roll... etc.  A player is not supposed to know how many reserves are coming on before they have to start commiting them! The best one can do is pick them in the order one wants to make the rolls in.

We've gone through this very section many times. Hopefully, I can break down the other person's arguement.

'You must roll for Reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available. You may not delay making the dice rolls or keep the reserves hanging around off-table until you decide you need them.'

His take on this is this: Page 84 under Reserves states you have to roll at the beginning you your turn (starting w/ Turn 2). Page 85-When it arrives, it has to come on per the mission requirements (location-usually your own board edge) or by Deep Strike. The 'note' at the bottom is not referring to the fact they have to come in at the beginning of the movement phase. It is indicating that you have to roll at the beginning of each turn, they have to be brought on as you can not decide it is not the right turn for them to come on (IE you successfully roll on turn 2, but don't put them out until turn 3).

He is of the opinion the special note does not refer to when in the movement phase they need to be deployed.

I've read this section dozens of times and I just can't figure out where he is coming from and the exact arguements you have posted is exactly what I've quoted. I was hoping I was missing something in my own interpretation, but I guess not.

Sigh, I guess I'll beat my head against a wall the next time this comes up.

Thanks for the help.

lets break this down for ya

"'You must roll for Reserves as soon as possible"

you roll for your reserves at the start of your turn and they become available upon the proper dice roll for that turn(starting on turn 2)

 

"and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available."

 

they become available as soon as you have made a succesful reserve roll at the start of you turn and thus must be brought in at that time(the start of your turn).

this means no turbo boosting with a telelport homer on a bike  or any other means you may think of that move them around after your succeful reserve roll

@Augustus. You are so right. I played in an RTT yesterday and 2 of the missions had escalation. Both games, my opponent did the reserves wrong and was shocked when I asked him to please place the reserve units as soon as he rolled for them instead of doing all the rolls and then moving the units on the board. Both players were unaware of the correct ruling and I had to show them. Both claimed that their way was not a big deal, but it certainly changed their tactics.

Darrian

It says to roll them all sepearately, which just means that you don't roll one die for all of them. So rolling them all before you place them is fine.

 Posted By skyth 08/07/2006 3:52 AM
It says to roll them all sepearately, which just means that you don't roll one die for all of them. So rolling them all before you place them is fine.

 

I agree .

 

Looks like I'm going to be unpopular here , so lets be clear on something , shall we?

40K IS NOT magic the gathering. 40K is organized into 3 broad phases with no general sub- phases , but rather active unit based sub-phases. Every phase gives the active player prefrence to the order each unit is activated (see pg 15 , 18 and 36).

On to the debate:

The Reserves rule states : Each selection ... is diced for separately at the start of the player's turn. (this would lead you to beleive before anything else is done as a sub-phase or first act of the phase, as the note tells you to roll as soon as possible) See the reserves table to find out when it is possible to roll.

If you make the roll (in a given turn) for any or all units you must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available. So , if you made the roll on turn two for your HQ unit the soonest it would be available (after the rolls at the start of the turn) would be the movement phase of turn two. Remember : Every phase gives the active player prefrence to the order each unit is activated (see pg 15 , 18 and 36). Nothing has changed this. No new sub phases were created. It falls to player option.

You can not keep units hanging around off-table until you need them so they MUST be brought on in the turn they arrive. Remember : Every phase gives the active player prefrence to the order each unit is activated (see pg 15 , 18 and 36).

Now we have always rolled , then placed , then on to movement but after reading the rules I do not think you must manditoraly place reserve unit before moveing other units. On a side note this seems to also apply to fleeing units ( you must roll at the start of the turn but only move them during the turn , as you activate that unit). Gives rise to some interesting possibilitys.

Sincity

 

Posted By Augustus 08/06/2006 4:12 AM

Ghaz is spot on.  Sadly, so is Killkrazy.

Unfortunately almost everyone playes reserves wrong, and does all the rolls, then moves the units on (or deep strikes them) afterward, when the rules clearly state, they must move on as soon as they are available.

Ultimately it is make a roll, move a unit on, make a roll... etc.  A player is not supposed to know how many reserves are coming on before they have to start commiting them! The best one can do is pick them in the order one wants to make the rolls in.

That's not technically correct either. You must make all of your reserve rolls at the start of the turn. So they all must be made at exactly the same time. It just happens to be convention that we roll one die after another because so few of us have that many different colored dice.

Rolling one, and moving it on and then rolling another is definitely not legal, as for that to happen you'd be in the movement phase, and wouldn't have rolled for all of your units at the start of the turn as the rules clearly say.

But it's pretty clear that you MUST move these units on as soon as they are available, and moving any other unit already on the table would not be doing that and hence is not legal.

I wonder if your opponent would let a chaos player roll reserves for summoning and then turboboost a bike icon into the center of his forces before actually deploying any demons.

I would guess no, but that's just me stereotyping space marine players again.

Demons are deployed before the movement phase, so the turbo boost would have to happen the turn before.

Demons are deployed before the movement phase, so the turbo boost would have to happen the turn before.

Daemons are summoned at the start of the turn (movement phase) just like normal Deep Strikers. However there is a restriction stating that the Icon must already be on the board at the start of the turn to be used for summoning.

So there is still no possible way to Turbo boost bikes from reserve and use them to summon on the same turn.

Posted By yakface 08/08/2006 2:28 PM

Demons are deployed before the movement phase, so the turbo boost would have to happen the turn before.

Daemons are summoned at the start of the turn (movement phase) just like normal Deep Strikers. However there is a restriction stating that the Icon must already be on the board at the start of the turn to be used for summoning.

So there is still no possible way to Turbo boost bikes from reserve and use them to summon on the same turn.

As he only mentioned the Demon summon roll, not a reserves roll for the biker, I was working with a bike on the table and some summoned Demons. With that in mind it sounded like he was proposing "moving" the summoned demons onto the table after the biker's movement since you do movement in order. Basically, you cannot turbo boost then summon, no matter where the biker starts.

Exactly my point snooggums. It's as rule-breaking as rolling your terminator reserve rolls, then turboboosting the teleport homer, then deploying the terminators from it.

I'm saying: if the space marine player that the op is mentioning wants it to be that way - just play some demon bomb vs. him and collect his sweet tears as you summon ridiculous hordes of demons with a little 24 extra inches on their charge.

they become available as soon as you have made a succesful reserve roll at the start of you turn and thus must be brought in at that time(the start of your turn).

By this logic they move on at the start of the turn, then gets to move again in the movement phase because they havent moved in that phase again.

Wow, I can move a monalith *finally* 12" and my Tau Hammerhead can effectively move 24" and *still* fire...

Seriously thou I feel the 'Move on as soon as possible' refers to that they must move on during that turn, you cannot hold them back unless you have a rule that says you can (webway portal etc)

I'm saying: if the space marine player that the op is mentioning wants it to be that way - just play some demon bomb vs. him and collect his sweet tears as you summon ridiculous hordes of demons with a little 24 extra inches on their charge.

You cannot do this as the Daemons are summoned at the start of the turn so by the time you get to the movement phase the Daemons have already been summoned, just like Deepstriking. Reserves move on in the actual movement phase in the order that the owning player wishes to (well the order bit is IMHO).

Wakka wakka!  Where's the smiley banging his head against the brick wall?