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I've done some experimenting since posting last time and I really like this setup in 1.5K. However, what would you go for when going up in points value? The list is really trimmed to fit 1500 points but the point limit going up opens some new possibilities. Would you just add more Rangers/Pathfinders and Jetbikes, or completely new units like mounted Dire Avengers, or perhaps Shining Spears, or Warp Spiders? Is anyone using Vypers? There's quite a few troop and fast attack slots still open. What should I pick with an additional 250/350 points, and why?

HQ:

Autarch: 145p
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Reaper launcher

Autarch: 145p
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Reaper launcher

Elites:

6 Harlequins: 162p
Shadowseer, Kiss x6

6 Harlequins: 162p
Shadowseer, Kiss x6

6 Fire Dragons: 96p

Troops:

6 Rangers: 114p

3 Jetbikes: 76p
Shuriken Cannon

Heavy Support:

Falcon: 210p
Shuriken Cannon x2, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones, Star Engines

Falcon: 195p
Shuriken Cannon x2, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon: 195p
Shuriken Cannon x2, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Total: 1500p

Rock dang solid.

The first thing I'd want to add is 2 more star engines and 3 vypers with star engines as well, just in case you play something that's got fast enough movers to block the falcons hatches. Even if they don't kill the falcons, they'll keep the harlies inside that way.

 

Reaper Launcher AND Lance? I thought the Bike meant you could only buy the one weapon... but I guess there's no reason not to... why not Mandiblasters to give an extra attack?

Small units of jetbikes are nice to keep your hatches covered. No one can crowd your hatch with 3 jetbikes riding behind your Falcons, and if they get charged, well... that's why God made Harlequins, right?

Two jetbike autarchs seems... excessive. Can you not drop one and buy a squad of Shining Spears or something?

Jetbikes aren't great for protecting those hatches. Anything fast will love to assault, wreck the bikes, then consolidate to block the hatch.

I love three seperate twoShuriCan Vipers at 180pts in the socring unit dominated game of 4th ed.

So why again can the bike autarch move and shoot the heavy weapon? I forgot...

BGB pg. 54, "Jetbikes: Shooting Phase"

fair enough - then again, it's the Autarch holding the thing, it's not a jetbike upgrade... which makes me wonder if that's how they intended it...which of course has nothing to do with the wording of their rules

2 small hawk squads with skyleap autarch, nice synergy with the autarchs for arriving on a a 2+ straight from turn 2, increase your anti horde capability nicely with a likely 2 pie plates a turn (and 2 shot guns if really want to stay on the ground), but also go well with the general falcon theme of points denial. followed by a small squad of shiny spears, again they nicely go with the autarchs for extra CC punch, which at 1850 pts I would think 2 small harlie squds may not always be able to handle without getting somewhat swamped. Might need to drop the star engines for all 3 units though.

Of course the Autarchs can move and shoot. What interests me at the moment is whether the Master Strategist bonus stacks. I think according to RAW I get +2 to my reserves rolls.

Why no Shining Spears instead of the second Autarch? Well, 145 points for a model that is ultra fast, cannot be always targeted by shooting because of being an IC, carries a BS6 heavy weapon and supports assault by hitting 5 times S6 I6 with a power weapon, and is capable of doing pop-up attacks is simply more powerful than a unit of its price.

Why no Mandiblasters? In 1500 points you can't always afford the extra tidbits you'd normally like. There's no way to get 20 points without sacrificing something more important.

Those Vypers sound like they could work, although the Star Engines on them seem rather expensive. What about deep striking Warp Spiders?

Posted By Therion- on 08/03/2007 2:03 PM
Of course the Autarchs can move and shoot. What interests me at the moment is whether the Master Strategist bonus stacks. I think according to RAW I get +2 to my reserves rolls.

I've always assumed it does, which is why i think 2 autarchs go well with the hawks for the ultimate in points denial. Pie plates and not even on board during opponents turn, not even falcons are that good at points denial - just the penultimate turn decision, risk the last jump and miss arriving on the last turn?

Hawks go against the grain of this list by putting a juicy target on the table barring a constant deepstrike (which is just not worth it for the points).

In thinking about it, I think the best all-around choice for this list would be to ditch a squad of harlies, replace it with fire dragons, and then fill out your counter-assault with shining spears (who can turboboost, making them unattractive targets for a lot of the game, and also can be used to help present a denied flank).

Waveserpents just continue to go against the grain by adding things for people to really rack points up on since they aren't nearly as invulnerable as falcons, and therefore their cargo is compromised. If you did go the WS route, I'd go storm guardians with fusion guns and no other upgrades.

I'd like to hear about some playtesting of the shining spears, though, because no one over here will try them out. The only consistent Eldar list I see is something like:

Yriel

1 x 5 striking scorpions w/exarch
2 x 6 fire dragons

a billion pathfinders

3 falcons with full kit

It's kind of weak against some lists, but it absolutely mauls godzilla nids.

Well if you think about it and I know you have; you've maxed out heavy slots, maxed out hq, and elites. The only units in the elites section worth taking are fire dragons and harlequins. So we won't change anything there. Your heavies could use more toys, star engines for sure. In looking at the fast attack choices, really they all suck. A vyper perhaps for scoring, but assuming that the only lists that are worth fretting over are nidzilla, shooty marines and perhaps for a short while slashwhip dumbness, you might consider a farseer w/ stones or eldrad. Marines may take more librarians to deal with the influx of choas, so this choice seems somewhat logical. So the Vyper might just be free points and does nothing the whole game. I advocate to ignore fast attack slots.

Your troops after possibly changing one of your autarchs for a psycker, really are the only area that you can move in. Both the rangers and the jetbikes as they sit scream, "Hi I'm the mandatory troop choices, I wouldn't be here but I'm forced to be" I suppose you could do something fun, upgrade to pathfinders, increase the jetbike squad to include a warlock with destructor and singing spear and add in dire avengers in a serpent depending onthe points of the game.

I've done quite well with the warlock jetbike squad, won't lie though, some games they really are the free points they appear to be, but having also decimated predators, vindicators, whirlwinds, baal preds, and other assorted vehicles inclduing a fire prism and a hammerhead they can occasionally do something right. In an unusual situation I had 2 jetbike squds drop their flamers on a single marine dev squad and vaporized the entire unit. I've never tried pathfinders but with most of the army aggressively in your opponents face, they won't be hunting the backfield to get to this rather immoblie unit. Dire avengers are an expensive investment in comparison to the rest of the possible units one may consider in the Eldar army, you have to take a wave serpent to get them where they need to be. In return 4.5 marines die, they do nothing to termiantors, obliterators, 2+ save TMC's and die like salmon swimming upstream. Still against hordes and a little "guide"ance they are amazing, and I've never felt cheated when taking dire avengers even when they die and do little in return.

Thats my 2 cents worth of thoughts.

The FAQ states the master strategist ability does not stack. Sorry!

I am looking at the list and feel it will do okay for friendlies but I think it could run up against some problems in a harder environment, especially against veterans. Certainly you can turn it up a notch. I say go for it.

- G

Turn it up a notch? I feel the list is as rock solid as any 1500p Eldar list possibly can be. If you feel differently, please share the wisdom with us.

Which FAQ by the way? I did not know an official Eldar FAQ was even out.

    Why do you have Rangers in this list? Are they useful for anything besides restricting enemy Infiltrators?

    It seems like a second squad of bikes would help you get the points you need to get those extra Star Engines and Mandiblasters.

My apology in regards to my statement of the FAQ addressing stacking master strategist. I had heard it was addressed but after taking another look I could not find anything on this subject. Sorry!

- G

Pull the rangers for another squad of jetbkes and you'll have enough for your mandiblasters. Rangers just plain aren't worth their points. Even Pathfinders aren't all that.

And drop an autuarch for Yriel.

- G

Posted By Longshot on 08/06/2007 4:54 PM
I'd like to hear about some playtesting of the shining spears, though, because no one over here will try them out.

 

I've had pretty good success with my Spears.  A unit of five with an exarch, skilled rider, and withdrawal is a pretty good unit for assaulting units you've worked over with Dire Avengers/Warp Spiders.  Add an Autarch into the unit and you really have a hard hitting (although fragile and expensive) assault unit. 

If you wanted to add something to the list in question a unit of Shining Spears is in my opinion a viable choice. 

Posted By Therion- on 08/03/2007 2:03 PM
Of course the Autarchs can move and shoot.

Hi folks, first post bt very long time lurker.

This has me confused, I know this should probably be in the rules discussion but as someone who wants to make the reaper lancher bike autarch conversion I can't help but notice that p.54 of BGB is not totally clear to me on this moving and shooting being allowed.

The pertinent part from the rulebook is,

'Each jetbike in a unit may fire with one weapon for each rider on the bike. If rapid fire weapons are mounted on a jetbike, then they are allowed to fire once up to maximum range even if the bike moved. In addition rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the jetbike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn'.

So, do we take the sentence starting 'In addition' as a stand alone rule allowing moving and shooting of heavy weapons - end of story?

Or do we think that moving and shooting of heavy weapons relates to jetbike mounted weapons, as in the previous sentence. The term 'in addition' certainly seems to ask you to take the previous sentence into account.

Sammael and jetbikes with heavy weapon upgrades are our only precedents I believe but in both those cases the heavy weapons are mounted on the vehicle so there's no problem. As far as i know this is the only example of a bike mounted unit capable of having a heavy weapon that is not mounted on a bike. Can a space maring on a bike holdng a rapid fire plasma gun fire one shot at 24 even if he moves? I thought non bike mounted weapons were still subject to move and fire restrictions.

I'd really like some opinions on this, I'd love to give my autarch the reaper launcher but if he can't move and fire it I'm not sure its worth it.

Yes. The two sentences both cover two different rules. First they tell you that you can fire mounted rapid fire weapons to maximum range even if you move, and the second tells you that you can even fire rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons and ASSAULT in the same turn. None of the aforementioned is allowed to normal infantry.

Sigh. Most people would argue that dumbing this game down has gone too far but if you can't understand such simple English maybe it hasn't. You're looking at a word and trying to imagine a special rule or condition that doesn't exist.

To clarify, what I really hate about discussing these rules is that people use the RAW argument whenever it suits them, and in other cases they try to construct a rule from the supposed intent of the designer. It's clear that according to the rules (as they are written) the heavy weapon doesn't have to be mounted on the Jetbike.

Therion, do you have to be a dick in every thread? MrJones may be wrong, but seeing as how he's the guy who wants to field the Reaper-wielding jetbike Autarch, not the guy facing it, it's absurd to accuse him of trying to bend RAW to his benefit. It's far more likely that he anticipates objections from his opponents, and wishes to clarify the issue before he tries it.

Ouch Therion, not sure that was strictly neccesary but i hope it made you feel better.

I brought this same question up with my gaming group (many tournament vets and otherwise intelligent people so please don't critisise them out of hand as well) and the discussion lasted a long time with much looking at rules and we didn't completely come to a conclusion so i thought I'd post a nice well thought out look at the main points from both sides. The dakka community is quite intelligent so I figured I'd get some nice, sensible, mature replies...

Incidentally, I play a similar list to the one you have posted Therion, 5 rangers never seems to be as useful as the cheaper bikes, any particular reasons for the choice?

 

There's always enough cover to fit one Ranger squad, and they do reasonable damage against Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants while holding up a table quarter. I would like to have 5 Pathfinders instead, but 6 Rangers for a slightly smaller price tag is almost as good.

I would suggest upgrading your rangers to pathfinders. That is pretty close to two wounds a turn on tyrants, ctan or other large monsters. I would also bump up the number of jetbikes to get enough firepower that they can actually do something.

Since you have already filled your HQ, Elites, and Heavy Support, you can only add fast attack and troops. Shining Spears and Warp Spiders would be your best bet for a fast attack choice. Spears, with one of your Autarchs, will make mincemeat out of most squads and allow you to back up your small Harlie units. An Exarch with a star lance also gives some anti-tank/dread capability, and you will want him anyway for withdraw.

Warp Spiders are good for shooting up units prior to assault by the Harlies, light tank hunting and instakilling gretchen and ripper swarms. Even with 2x Shurican Cannon on your Falcons, you will probably want to be able to whittle down units more before sending in your assault squads.

From limited experience with fielding a pretty similar list, here are some possebilities:

- Vengines are not mandatory. They dont help with scoring and are statistically rarely used. Think along the lines of "more boys less toys".

- You lack volume of fire against stuff like genestealers, so a unit of Avengers in a Serpent might help.

- Im not sure about vypers. They will compete for cover with your transports. Maybe not ideal.

- A single Prism can mess with your opponents unit-placement. If he starts to space everything up that helps a lot with flanking and picking assaults. So why not go for the full 10 Dragons in a Serpent and use the freed heavy slot for a Prism?

- Maybe the idea you will enjoy most: Eldred and Avatar combo. Doesnt seem to fit at first glance, but on a second look you get more rock hard point efficient units that mess with nids for example. Should help with deployment too.

I just wanted to bring this list back to the front for a specific question.

What lists do we think this list is going to have tough games against? How will it fare against the new Chaos, and the new-style Marine lists (ba/da), in particular? How about Nidzilla and Necrons, Tau?

It seems to me this is pretty much THE power list in modern 40k, but I may be missing something.

For my thoughts:

I cannot imagine any list either the BA or DA codex can put together standing a chance against this list. Simply not enough guns, and too many expensive, fragile units. They can't even keep falcons glanced reliably which means they'll get ripped apart by shooting.

Necrons I feel are going to be a very tough matchup for this, particularly at higher point levels but even at 1500. A typical 1500pt Necron list might be something like:

Lord w/veil+orb
2 x 6 Immortals
2 x 10 warriors
2 x 5 destroyers
1 x 7 scarabs

Puts out enough shots to keep the Falcons shaken most of the game, kills the rangers and Jetbikes in a round of shooting, and can - if allowed to do so - use scarabs to fend off the Autarchs. Can Veil out of combat with Harlequins and Orb to survive the assault.

I suspect Tau are going to be a tough list as well, with the ability to churn out a serious volume of shots - but the weakness that if they have any suits at all they're going to lose them all to Harlies (ouch). Mechanized Tau are going to be the absolute bane of this list because they can outshoot the Falcons and keep fire warriors in vehicles that you can't reliably pop.

Nidzilla I suspect will be a fairly easy game, depending on the number of gaunts they field. You will probably lose some harlies to shooting, but you'll take more points in big bugs with you than they cost, and once the gunfexes are gone the Falcons can start adding their shooting - plus the reaper autarchs winnowing through them.

Dark Eldar should be a fairly easy game for you, because while they can hurt your falcons, your Reaper Autarchs can go through their vehicles fairly easily and Harlequins can out-assault them on the charge when backed up by autarchs. Eventually you'll start getting some falcon shots and mop up from there.

I'm starting to wonder if this list will really shine as well at 1500 as it does at 1850/2k, where you can fill out the elements you're a tad light on - antivehicle in particular.

Actually DE is one hard game with Eldar, they take out vehicles very well and can easily be better in any assault.  Its 3+ armies i have no fear of with eldar. Tau is right about = and will collapse as soon as i get into cc.

I have a GT army ill post up that i just used in Chicago. i had 2 wins 2 losses and a draw. Not bad for my first gt with eldar. And the learning experiance was just amazing.  

6 harlequin is ok but id take a powerweapon since it wounds on 4 on the charge instead of just the rending 6, and normally no less than 7 harlequin also get rid of some of the kisses its over kill especially when that unit dies so easy. The 3 bikes would go and the autarchs would have to go in place of one hq (at least in this many points). 3 falcons is tough but would be almost impossible to place without being shot in the first turn  (do to the the weak terrain in tournies) if you dont  go first one at least maybe 2 would bite it.

As for vypers there was another eldar player that used a pair of them with 3 wraithlords and pathfinders and spyders and seer council that did well.

Uh, what? First you say he should get a Troupe Leader with PW (presumably to kill more stuff--though if you crunch the numbers, he only kills 0.5 of a MEq more on the charge!) and add more Harlies, then you say Kisses on all the Harlies is overkill? No dude, a Troupe Leader is overkill, Kisses are essential, and 7 Harlies are an invitation for your opponent to laugh at you and wonder what the hell you took an empty Falcon for.