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So I can't help but ponder the new Ork dex and how to re-organize my Mobz and everything. One thing I keep coming back to is the idea of Mob sizes and how big my Mobz should be to be optimal.

My main guess is between 20 and 30, specifically at those values.  30 Boyz brings a lot of durability but will weigh in about 230ish to a little more, pending upgrade costs.  20 Boyz similarly kitted will be about 170ish points. 

This is assuming that the Boyz are 6 points a pop, PK Nobz cost as now, gun costs are similar, etc. 

Here are the main pro's and con's I can think of (assuming Shoota Boyz):

Mobz of 30 Pros
-Insane amount of dice rolled at 18"
-Takes 15 deaths to become non-scoring, 21 to become affected by morale
-Insane tar-pit, even for the most potent CC units.

Mobz of 30 Cons
-Very high cost per unit
-Less scoring units overall
-Relatively small savings vs. multiple smaller units
-Hard to manuver 30 Boyz, let alone get them all into 18" range
-Less scoring units

Mobz of 20 Pros
-More Scoring Units
-More Power Klaw Nobz per army
-Easier to manuver
-Still decent tar pit, more units to counter charge with
-Can be transported via Battlewagon for Turn 1 shooting

Mobz of 20 Cons
-Marginally more Expensive (the only increase in cost is the points cost of the PK Nob, which is arguably points well spent)
-Much easier to neutralize: 11 Deaths to become non scoring and begin to be effected by morale
-Less dice rolled per unit at 18"


So yeah.  No idea about what I'm going to prefer as far as Mob sizes for Boyz. 30 is tempting for sheer durability purposes, and the incredible amount of dice rolled per shooting phase, but with Mobz of 20 I can get the same number of shots total, for minimal points increase, in more units, and I get more units out of the deal.  

Likewise if the enemy unit has something that can REALLY put out a lot of dakka (think Bladestorm, tornado squadron, etc), then if I have a mob of 20, he can only kill that many models, and I'm free to counter attack.  Basically, you get all the benefits of MSU by going with Mobz of 20.

So what do you guys think will be more beneficial in the long run for a horde army?

Well I think this is all a bit premature, so my generalizations are based more on the old codex than the rumored new rules.

I would put my money on mob sizes around 20. This allows you to lose ten models (gee...exactly the "minimum scoring" number), still roll Ld on Ld 10 (if the mob check rule doesn't change), and forces your opponent to really systematically destroy squads at a time to be truly effective with his firepower.

However, this is assuming no minimum-number-per-weapon-upgrade rules included in the unit entry (possible?).

Whenever I toyed around with possible Ork footslogger lists, I usually settled on one or two really large mobs to hold objectives and take ground as well as soak up remnants of partially destroyed mobs with minimal chance of falling back themselves. I would hedge my bets around this continuing to be an effective strategy for ork mobs. The rest of the list was filled out with "strike units," if you will, to provide a modicum of flexibility and prime-threat-responders. As you said yourself, particularly large mobs can quickly become unwieldy. Heck, I have trouble being effective with mobs of 20 guardians, and prefer to stick around half that number!

Personally, I would go for the squads of 20 for the reasons already suggested. Specifically More Power Klaws, easier to maneuver / Deploy, more options (Dividing Shots) i.e. less wasted shots at things like speeders etc. And a squad of 20 is still a big squad (even if they?re Orks). Besides, 6 squads of 20 shure looks better than 4 squads of 30.

Uriah

I would dearly love to deploy 30 man squads as it would give the regular armies I fight fits.  However 30 mob sized squads are a headache to manuver with sparse terrain.  Play someone who is terrain happy and its 45 minute movement phases.  If I could loot 3 vindicators and use them with apocolypse rules, I would just clear a path heh.  However if the rumor that one of your squads can be upgraded to ard boyz for +1 point each is true, I would run one 30 man slugga squad, as most of the time if that unit gets into h2h with anything over 15 boyz left its gonna wash over them.

But I want to fit some of the new fun stuff into my army, not just be 6 30 man squads with klaws and ghaz gettin us there turn 2.  Lootas look fantastic, stormboyz are a must, tankbustas I would like to fit in, and those wonderful new trukk models.

what about a unit of 24 shootaboyz?

Well shoota boyz are kind of useless now as they cost the same as sluggas and can only take special weapons if they are a ridiculous sze. I am still leaning towards smaller units around 16 or so, maybe even 12. That many units backed up by warbikes and trukk boyz as speedy units, killa kanz as fire magnets, and tankbustas and flashgitz to deliver firepower along with a mek retinue could be fun.

20 sounds optimal, or maybe 22 (lose 12 instead of 11 to be below half). They're T4 but they're also 6+ save, it's possible that squads of 30 are needed to get decent size squads in melee, especially with no more grot screen.

Maybe you can find an enterprising player to let you experiment? We know enough about the codex already.

I think something should be said about squads of 30 saving troops FoC space for stuff like trukk boyz, or larger point games where you just plain old need more boyz.

in 1500 I will easily be using all six troops squads if i take squads of 20 boyz.  Moving up to 2000 points i would basically have to up the squad size do 30.

I think the only  number that would be acceptable besides 20 and 30 would be 22, as less is uneffective as footsloggers, and taking more than 22 but less than thirty would be taking away from you heavy weapon potential.  22 increases the amount to be killed for scoring purposes by 1 and also makes it harder to stop them from being fearless by two (when compared to 20) for only 12 points.

Also for me it might depend on the KFF rules, if only one model in the unit needs to be in range for the whole squad then it would be easier to get fewer bigger squads in, while if every model that wants the save needs to be in the KFF range it wouldnt make a difference on squad size.  Overall I guess i would actually say that KFF would prefer larger squads, no matter how the rule plays out.

With all that factored in I will probably use squads of 20 in 1500 and squads of 30 in anything bigger.

Hmm, I'd go 18. 10 losses to drop from scoring status, which is also the point you have to actually worry about failing head checks. 20 if you get 1 special per 10 boys.

The problem with 30 is that while you are still fearless and leathal at below half, you can't score. That leaves 14 odd orks that *must* attack instead of take objectives.

I don't disagree that in larger games, the mobs are going to start pushing towards 30 to make room for more Boyz, but at 1500-1750 or even 1850 for that matter, I don't see this being an issue. There are plenty of things in the Ork list that will eat points fast. Theoretically, the Zaagstruk storm boyz mob will cost probably about 300 points, given what we know now. Considering that 120 Boyz with Rokkits and PK Nobz will be around 1k points, regardless if you use Mobz of 20 or 30, and you're looking at a small amount of wiggle room.

Double that when juicy tempting bits like Tankbustas or Lootas are rumored to be as much as an MEQ in points cost, and you're not going to fit all the gubbinz in an Ork list.

However, in considering all this, I really do think the idea of mobz of 20 are probably the best bet. More PK's, more scoring units, and most importantly more counter units for when the Front most mobs inevitably take it in the face from a rapid fire or nasty charge, it leaves you with enough units to counter with.

More will become clear as the codex comes out, but that won't stop me from thinking about how I'm going to run the army. :p

I would say "between 17 and 30". Because of ork morael you dont need even numbers and they are orks, they dont come in squads of ten, except in the boxset. The army would be better if you made mob sizes irregular. The biggest Nob has 29 boyz, the second Nob only 23, the third Nob is runtier but has a bigga klaw so he leads 26, the last Nob has 20 boyz, coz he cant get enough teef.

12, so they fit in trukks. Getting there is half the battle.

That's for Slugga Boyz, which while good, probably won't be as nasty as the horde of shootas will be, as they'll really suffer from Mech Skimmer lists as they do now.

Also, remember that according to the rumored rules, getting one special in a mob requires at least 10 orks. So if you want 3 special weapons as you field now, you have to take 30 orks. That may have a bearing on your decision making process, if it has not already.

Personally, I have mine organized into groups of 20 right now according to rumors. 20 is a good size, manueverable, only takes a little jogging around from my standard of 16 to 18 boyz, and if you want to you can give the nob a special to compliment your boyz you can - fluffy for Bad Moon players like myself. The cost is not too bad either.

I have a feeling that the sizes of the mobz will vary a little bit more now since trukk boyz are possibl troops - getting the most out of those 6 FoC slots is important, and if you have 60 odd points left and no Troops slots left, why not throw another 10 boyz into a mob?

perhaps one large unit of 30, with he other mobz being 20 strong is a good comprimise.

I've really been putting a lot of theorizing into this, trying to come up with my "goal" theory list to try and build, basically a shooty horde.

I have factored the idea that you need 10 Boyz per Special Weapon, so Mobz of 20 get 1 less gun. But on the whole, you start counting the number of Boyz you want, and out of the totals, running mobz of 20 or 30, you get the same number of specials in your army because of how the rules work out. As I said before, the only difference is the added cost of the extra PK Nob you get for your new Squad of 20. So you don't really lose any number of guns by going with smaller mobz as opposed to big ones.

Looking at how things will fit in for the horde army, I am leaning more and more towards 20 being the optimal size. Here's what I'm guess-hammering out to be a shooty 1500 point list for the Boyz:

Boss on Bike w/ PK and Cybork Body- Guess 150 or so (probably less, the current KoS one runs about 160 similarly equipped)

4x20 Shoota Boyz w/ PK Nob and 2 Rokkits - 166 x4 (assumes Rokkits stay same cost, PK and Nob upgrades stay as is)

20 Stormboyz+Zaagstruk - Guessing ~300 or so. I don't see Zaagstrukk costing more than 60-80 points, probably as high as 320 for the mob, but you can always drop a few boyz if necessary to make points.

2x12 Lootas - 180 x2 (Lootas are rumored to cost as much as an MEQ)

EDIT: Alternatively, with a relatively "Small" amount of Boyz slogging it, two KFF Meks could replace the Boss on Bike, depending on relative points costs and effectiveness of the Boss on Bike.

Probably will need fine tuning when the dex comes out, based on what options are available. But that's about what I'm gunning for for 1500. At 1750+ it starts getting much worse.

have you thought at all about running a mix? Put a 30 boy mob where you need the bulk, and keep a few 20 boy mobs in the other areas. Between HB Devs, predators, war walkers, etc. there are a few units that can really chew up the boys. Pop the big mob in front of it, and that unit either needs to shoot at that mob, or risk getting overrun.

I was thinking that at 1750, I'd probably throw down one big unit of 30, or a bunch of Killa Kanz.

Ok, the Kanz will be for fun, for tourney play, one big old unit of 30 to add on sounds right to me.

Around 1500 points, it seems like you're going to run out of points to cover all your bases to make a "balanced" list that can hope to handle the kind of things you'll find in the meta-game.

If you just mass Shootas, you will not be able to have enough firepower to put glances on Falcons/Hammerheads, or even regular tanks. It's just not going to be there, because as the game goes on, you will need to start focusing your Shootas at infantry to be effective, not be tempted to throw them at armor like you normally would on turns 1-2. So you need to dedicate points to anti-tank, particularly long range-anti-tank. Which is where you get the requirement to throw down Lootas, or possibly Big Gunz, I'm not sure yet which will be more cost-effective till the codex comes out or we get a leak.

Likewise, you could just mass more shootas if you dropped the Storm Boyz + Zaagstrukk, but they are an equalizer vs. armies that can outshoot or avoid you (Zillas, Necron Flying Circus, Suit Heavy Mech Tau, anything not in a Falcon in Mech Eldar).

I think the optimal number of Boyz is going to be very closely coupled to the points level you're playing at, combined with the kind of army you're going to run. If you say, wanted to run an all in your face sluggas horde, with Ghazgul to get you there on Turn 2 or 3, then sure Mobz of 30 Make a lot more sense, but for Shoota Boyz I'm thinking that until you really start to run out of points to get other required choices, you're not going to want to bump it up to 30 Boy Mobz.

The only way I really see 30 Boy mobz really coming into their own is when you DO just go for the shock of say 4x30 Shoota Boy mobz. It'd work out because it will likely take a ton of fire to make a mob go away, and as one mob advances, but doesn't run, you're still staring down a PK nob that will do damage, and the mob behind him.

It's just that at 1500 points, I don't see that being viable because of other factors in the meta-game. You need to be able to handle skimmers to at least keep them glanced the minute they're exposed, so you have to make room for things like Lootas, which cut into the overall count of Boyz.

Perhaps it was intentional, perhaps not, but the new Ork list looks like it will be uniquely suited to handle skimmer armies. Lootas can pump out a rediculous amount of autocannon fire for what is rumoured to be a fairly cheap amount of points. Tankbustas have auto-hitting POW 8 one-shot weapons (anti-tank squigs). The grabba claw vehicle upgrade looks like a viable method of immobilizing skimmers if rumours are true, making them easy pickings for all sorts of nastiness. And honestly, if you can get a mob of twenty boys with 2 nobs with PKs, you even have a decent enough chance of taking down a skimmer in assault. Enough orks on the table and skimmers may have difficulty staying out of the 13-18" assault range, and a pair of PK nobs get what, 10 STR 9 attacks with furious charge? Even if they're only hitting on 6s you're likely to get one or two hits.

Skimmers are going to have a much more difficult time with the new Orks than the old ones. Heck, the new Orks might be one of the best anti-skimmer armies in the game from what I can see.

Well with Tankbustas or Lootas rumored to cost as much as a Marine, it's not that cheap. 15 Lootas/Tankbustas will cost as much as a mob of 30 Boyz with PK Nob, and that's for a T4 unit with a 6+ Save. That makes me say "NO" to Tankbustas who have to get within 24" to get shots off, and have no transport per the rumors. Lootas also look "not so worth it" but when you go through the options the only decent long range anti-tank that we can touch is going to be Big Gunz or Lootas, with Maybe Kanz w/ Rokkits being decent since they're BS3, but they're still short ranged.

My main concern is Mech Tau, since getting glances on AV13 is going to be hard for almost anything in the Ork army, EXCEPT Lootas and Tankbustas.

At Marine prices, Tankbustas may be unworkable, but Lootas are still a good bargain IMO. Plonk them in decent cover and they should be fine.

Well that's the plan, and why they're in my 1500 "goal" Theory list. Use that 48" range and put them in Cover. Not a whole lot is going to shoot at them at that range without exposing themselves, and even with decent losses, you still can probably stick around and get a glance on whatever threw shots out to hurt you.

Still, my point is that you NEED something along those lines. My biggest worry against Mech Tau is railgun submunitions coming in and making them go splat. If I played Tau, or any other army, and had any idea about the new Orks, they are priority target #1.

Also the whole Grabbin Klaw thing is potentially a non-starter if you can't get it on Buggies. If you can put it on Trukks, then it's somewhat "OK", but then you're not going to be doing a horde style list anymore, and again while I think Trukk mounted lists can be successful, when you draw that Mech Tau opponent with SMS you may as well pack up and go home.

Maybe once we get the codex we can see about how well a Hybrid army will do between speed and shooty. I was thinking of running some Trukks as troops and Lootas for support as a "fun" army. Bout the only downside with running lots of trukks is that you almost always want a battlewagon of sorts for screening purposes, and then you want to throw an ordinance gun on there, and then you start putting out 150'ish points in what amounts to "Venom Cannon/Railgun/Gauss/Lascannon" Fodder.

Still the rumors are putting the base cost for an open topped Battlewagon with AV14/12/10 at 90 Points, which taken with minimal upgrades could be pretty useful, and another reason to consider 20 Boy Mobz:

20 Orks in cheapo battlewagon, zoom up 13" on turn 1, disembark, OPEN FIRE!

Now times that by 3, and you start to see the appeal.

What's more, units with that kind of range are, in the current metagame, generally AT, not AP, so it's not that common for opponents to have more than a couple of units that can trade fire with Lootas effectively.

And yeah, I wasn't challenging the general thrust of your argument.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 10/23/2007 12:40 PM

Not a whole lot is going to shoot at them at that range without exposing themselves, and even with decent losses, you still can probably stick around and get a glance on whatever threw shots out to hurt you.

What's more, units with that kind of range are, in the current metagame, generally AT, not AP, so it's not that common for opponents to have more than one unit that can trade fire with Lootas effectively.

And yeah, I wasn't challenging the general thrust of your argument.

Yeah, my only worry are Sniper Fex's (but the Barbed Strangler is 1 shot and at BS3), and Railhead Submunitions.  Even Terminators are going to struggle since by the time they deepstrike, there's a sea of Orks between them and the Lootas, making it hard to get within 24" if you deploy well enough.

Luckily, both of those are template based and if you deploy right and the cover is permitting, they're not so scary.

Sorry if I came across confrontational, I didn't think you were "challenging" the arguments I had there.  I guess it's just my posting style. My apologies.

Actually, your post didn't seem confrontational at all. The funny thing is that I said that as a clarification because from other posters' reactions, I've gotten the impression that I come across as more confrontational than I mean to be! Ha.

Regarding pieplates in general, I'd hope (if I were an Ork player, which I'm not) that between shelling the relatively dense Shootas that are probably not all in cover versus the less numerous Lootas, which are in cover, the opponent would often choose to shoot the Shootas.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 11:53 AM

Still the rumors are putting the base cost for an open topped Battlewagon with AV14/12/10 at 90 Points, which taken with minimal upgrades could be pretty useful, and another reason to consider 20 Boy Mobz:

20 Orks in cheapo battlewagon, zoom up 13" on turn 1, disembark, OPEN FIRE!

Now times that by 3, and you start to see the appeal.

  Now THAT'S what I'M talking 'bout!!!

@tegis - No problems. If I run the Orks with two Big Meks with KFF's (which should work out under 100 points for both if points stay relatively consistent), then all the boyz "in the open" should get a 5+ cover save. That should help when I'm only running 80 footsloggers.

I love saying that. "only running 80 footsloggers". It just makes me smile.

@Pariah - It IS cool as hell ain't it? It isn't too hard to hide 3 Leman Russ size tanks in deployment and rush out there for some "in your face" love. Problem being that once you roll up escalation that tactic becomes about as useful as a poopy flavored lolly pop.

Would be relatively great if GW continues with the trend of no-escalation at the GT's, but Ard Boyz dropped the notions of that I think.

With the renewed focus on mobs and the loss of the meat shield rule, will there still be a place for Gretchin in your armies?  I always liked the idea of using them as small and sneaky scoring units.  That particular seems like it would work even better with a few size 30 mobs running around.

Posted By Gitzbitah on 10/24/2007 5:41 AM
With the renewed focus on mobs and the loss of the meat shield rule, will there still be a place for Gretchin in your armies?  I always liked the idea of using them as small and sneaky scoring units.  That particular seems like it would work even better with a few size 30 mobs running around.

Probably not, unless a very substantial number of them can be upgraded to carry Grotzookas at a low points cost.

A sneaky scoring unit?  They die if something sneezes at them and their morale is crap, so they run.  Without the cover save bonus, I don't see myself including them, even at BS3.  Well unless you count Grots in Killa Kanz, but other than that, no.

Agreed for 30 grots worth of points now you can buy 15 boyz, with double toughness and better weaponry.  As vanilla troops there not even stallworthy like ripper swarms or scarab swarms.  Its just more models to have to move around an already crowded side for us.

While we're talking grotz, I was thinking of using a single file horizontal line of them across the battlefield, forcing leadership priority checks as a sort of unofficial screen.