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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

The Line of Sight rules on page 21 of the rulebook say: ". . .any models in the target unit that can't be seen by the attackers can't be hit or chosen as casualties (with the exception of barrage weapons - as explained later)."

The Check Range rules on page 22 of the rulebook say: "Any models in the target unit which are actually out of range can't be hit by the shooting."

The Casualty Removal rules on page 26 of the rulebook say: "The owning player can choose to remoe any models from the unit, providing they are within the line of fire and range of the attacker's weaponry."

The Blast Weapon rules on page 30 of the rulebook say: "The defending player may remove any casualties inflicted from the unit as a whole, not just from models beneath the Blast marker."

The Template Weapon rules on page 31 of the rulebook say: "As with blast weapons, casualties infilcted by template weapons do not have to be taken from amongst the models actually covered by the template, but most come from within range of the firer."

QUESTION: How do you play the casualty removal restictions regarding range and line of sight when dealing with basic Blast and Template weapons?

OPTION A. By the rules as written: casualties caused by Blast and Template weapons may be assigned to any model in the affected unit, provided that model is within range and line of sight of the firing model.

OPTION B. Casualties caused by Blast weapons may be assigned to any model in the affected unit regardless of whether that model is within range and line of sight of the firing model. Casualties caused by Template weapons may be assigned to any model in the affected unit (regardless of whether that model is within line of sight of the firing model) but must be taken from within range of the Template weapon.

OPTION C. Something else entirely. Reply exactly what it is in the thread below.

 

 

I will choose option C

Casualties caused by Blast weapons may be assigned to any model in the affected unit, provided that model is within range and line of sight of the firing model.

Casualties caused by Template weapons may be assigned to any model in the affected unit (regardless of whether that model is within line of sight of the firing model) but must be taken from within range of the Template weapon.

As you can see, this is a conglomeration of options A & B. I would have chosen A, but there is precedent because of a lack of LOS requirement for template weapons regarding bunkers (which definatly dont give LOS to the target) and because template weapons deny cover saves. To me, this seems to imply that template weapons ignore LOS for casualty removal beneath the template. (in otherwords, I can fire through a building with it)
As well, there is a justification of intent as well I will admit, because fire is such a fickle, uncontrollable destructive element of warfare, it goes where its own whim carries it, not the whim of those who create it.

So in short, within LOS and range for blast weapons, within range for template weapons.

I may interpret the RaW incorrectly here, but it feels right to me because of how templates work with bunkers. (and thus projecting that onto the rest of the battlefield, especially in COD)

Option C: (and this is a "how we play" interpretation. We know it's not support by pure RAW)

For blast weapons - Initial target point must be in range/LOS. Scatter (for non barage weapons) must be in LOS. (we allow scatter to take blasts out of range - the high explosive death is going to land SOMEWHERE) Casualtiy removal is from anywhere in the squad though, regardless of range/LOS.

Main reason - prevents certain types of sniping. Justification: The general rules on casualty removal. (and the RL excuse? well shrapnel can fly quite a ways from the detonation point. And if Jonesy the plasma gunner got hit, his buddy Johnny will pick up the plasma gun because he can.)

Template weapons - specifically the flamer template - we ONLY allow casualties from under the template. Once that template has been placed for maximum damage - any casualties can only be removed from the part of the squad under the template. If it's your commander/specailist/heavy weapon team, etc - tough noogies. It's the reward for using a flamer...

Justification - most "template" weapons are range "Template." We use casualty removal from ONLY under the template as a reward for getting close enough to use it. (RL excuse: No one in their right mind is going to run INTO the inferno that torched their buddies to recover the plasmagun.) Of course - this makes the Hellhound an AMAZING tank versus lighter infantry. We accept that as reasonable...

A: with a note that per the FAQ ordinance that scatters past range or out of LOS still counts as being in range, so they can be taken as far as the template edge reaches IF it scatters. Still removed from LOS only.

This particular poll is about blast and template weapons only. Ordnance weapons have their own separate poll.

A: I agree with snooggums that the only exception would be for Ordinance. Per page 1 (Shooting) of the main rulebook FAQ

Q. What happens when an Ordnance balst scatters out of LOS and/or Range (possibly onto a different unit)? Do the casualties have to be within range and LOS as per normal shooting rules, or do these not apply to a scattering Ordnance shot?

A. A scattering Ordnance shot can hit and kill models that are out of LOS and range. These models would of course get their cover saves for any intervening terrain.

Entirely different. Since it is a blast it can potentially catch a model under the blast template that is out of LOS. However the models must be in range of the weapon. For example...

X X X X X
_____

The X's represent models in a unit, and the _____ represents a wall. If I fire a blast into the 1 model I can see it can potentially hit the model next to it so either can be removed as a casualty. Second example...

x
x
x
p
X

The uppercase X represents the only model in range of the blast weapon, however due to size of the blast "p" is a potential casualty because he falls under the template even though technically he is out of range. So casualties would be removed as one or both of those models.

Blast Weapons - may remove casualties from anywhere in the squad, provided that said models are in range and line of sight. My group counts the center hole as the range limiter, meaning that models beyond it may only be killed if they are under the blast (wholly or partially, it doesn't matter.)

Ordnance Blast Weapons - I believe there was an FAQ saying that casualties could be taken from anywhere in the squad so long as they were within range, allowing for a cover save for intersecting terrain and such if the Large Blast scattered out of LOS

Template Weapons - casualties must be in range and in line of sight, period.


At least, that's the way our group plays.

CK

Posted By Personification on 08/30/2007 10:26 AM
Entirely different. Since it is a blast it can potentially catch a model under the blast template that is out of LOS. However the models must be in range of the weapon. For example...

X X X X X
_____

The X's represent models in a unit, and the _____ represents a wall. If I fire a blast into the 1 model I can see it can potentially hit the model next to it so either can be removed as a casualty. Second example...

x
x
x
p
X

The uppercase X represents the only model in range of the blast weapon, however due to size of the blast "p" is a potential casualty because he falls under the template even though technically he is out of range. So casualties would be removed as one or both of those models.

 

It's fine if you play this way (that's the whole point of this thread), but wahat you present clearly doesn't mesh with the actual rules as written. There is nothing in the rules that implies that models under the blast are suddenly counted as being within line of sight of the firing model and casualties inflicted by a blast weapon still follow all the normal casualty rules (including the fact that the casualty must be within line of sight of the firing model).

 

I know it isn't RAW, but I always played it as the center of the blast has to be put in LoS and Range, and if anything is unlucky enough to be under the marker they are potentially hit.\

Flame template though, that never came up. My Seraphim almost always hit everyone, or at least span the unit, with their flamers, but it makes sense that only things in range of the template can be damaged.

we play B

its a friendlier way to play

as long as you have the range take the wounds anywhere ion the squad that was hit.

Quick question: doesn't the "A" way of playing open the possibility of character sniping with the template weapons? I could potentially bring a model with a flamer in such a position that only the edge of the flamer touches one enemy model, say a character/special weapon/heavy weapon? I admit that such a thing is highly unlikely and would also result from but positioning by my adversary, but still possible, no?

Phil

Posted By boreas on 09/04/2007 5:54 AM
Quick question: doesn't the "A" way of playing open the possibility of character sniping with the template weapons? I could potentially bring a model with a flamer in such a position that only the edge of the flamer touches one enemy model, say a character/special weapon/heavy weapon? I admit that such a thing is highly unlikely and would also result from but positioning by my adversary, but still possible, no?

Phil

Yep, but this is just a variation of the standard 'range sniping' effect that occurs with all weapons that have a range.

I play it like hellfury, as do most people I know across the country and here is why:

A flamer has an approximatley 8" range. Visibility into area terrain is 6 inches. The things under the huge ball of flame/promethium are still affected by the it and don't get cover saves.

There are many times where someone has dropped a flamer into units in cover from the edge of that cover. This is generally the same interpretation at tourneys (including GT's).

Orion

I went with B, the fastest & simplest option. Also 'friendlier' in that the owner of the blasted squad can't really lose fists or killy weapons unless that's all that's left.

- Salvage

Huh, I was just re-reading the template bit, and noticed for the first time that while blasts need a 4+ to hit partially covered models, template weapons hit every model, even those partially covered, automatically.

Not 100% relevant, but I just had the little "The More You Know" star go above my head.

Was looking at the various template/blast marker rules to vote here and noticed something strange. There aren't any rules for applying wounds from an Ordinance weapon. The rules only state how scatter works - and the rules for Blast Weapons prohibit using that section to resolve Ordinance damage.

What gives?