Tyr13 wrote: To be fair, they *are* aliens. And theyve always had long arms and short legs, check out the Deadzone Grogans.
I have DZ models and that doesn't make me like them any more. Some of DZ aliens are great but I just can't stand mantic's idea that muscular humanoids need short legs and ape arms.
Hey guys. I just wanted to point out that the Puppet's War bag that is 60% off at Battle Foam's Black Friday Holiday sale (so it's $8 after discount) is 50mm thick and has card and dice storage, so you can fit an entire Deadzone team in there along with cards and dice. (Clip some of the foam walls for the taller/larger models)
Those grogans are awful. Good job I won't be playing extreme anyway. How long has dreadball been out? Before this is another year or two old I bet there will be another milking of dreadball with another 10+ teams.
NTRabbit wrote: ...but if they didn't release more teams, other people would come here and accuse them of abandoning the system and not supporting it enough.
This is the Kobayashi Maru...
That already happened, in the other thread. Someone complained they released Dreadball and then didn't support it.
Despite, Season 2. Then Season 3. Then Azure Forest. Then this.
I feel they have released to much stuff far to soon. They should off spread the releases out more. The original 12 teams were to many to begin with! I've list interest in the game at the mo because of this overload of DB stuff.
Mantic (well, Jake Thornton specifically) did actually listen to fan feedback of the game and have altered it accordingly with an FAQ*. That to me is a sign of a company supporting a game. I agree that we could have got along fine with just the first 2 seasons (certainly, that's all I play), but at least the other stuff, the Azure forest release etc. is there for people who want it.
What's going to be interesting now is how Mantic carries things going forward.
*Thinking specifically of the Judwan nerf, where the efficacy of that team was reduced following that race getting the top 3-4 positions in an official tournament and a lot of general comments on the Mantic forums.
Models look great and alot more dynamic than I was expecting, but that colour scheme is just horrible, makes them look like their made from play-dough.
Is it worth me updating the thread title for these pics?
I'm gonna see if I get my two sprues painted. If I have 10 painted peacekeepers staring me down, then I'll regret not getting more, but we'll see how that works out.
Yeah Ronnie mentioned in the Mantic radio podcast that hard plastic pathfinders are the second kit they want to do for DZ2 after Veermyn he also mentioned HIPs Asterism troops and Reb troops
overtyrant wrote: There sci-fi stuff is so much better then there fantasy stuff.
Funny I just said the same thing in the KoW thread. I'm not a fan of their fantasy ranges any of them but I like the majority of the Sci-Fi stuff. I guess whatever I save by dropping KoW and keeping DS at a base pledge will just get spent on DZ2 and Warpath anyway
The new industrial terrain is a nice addition and it's nice to see curve parts for a change the first lot are very angular.
overtyrant wrote: There sci-fi stuff is so much better then there fantasy stuff.
Funny I just said the same thing in the KoW thread. I'm not a fan of their fantasy ranges any of them but I like the majority of the Sci-Fi stuff. I guess whatever I save by dropping KoW and keeping DS at a base pledge will just get spent on DZ2 and Warpath anyway
The new industrial terrain is a nice addition and it's nice to see curve parts for a change the first lot are very angular.
I was actually thinking about dropping my $50 pledge as well as I'm just not feeling excited about KoWatm. I do like the terrain and boards, but there not from mantic...
Yep, count me as another who likes their sci-fi, not their fantasy. For me, "Mantica" is a bit too close to "Generica." Their sci-fi range borrows from other lines, of course, but I find that it also departs for them with more frequency, imagination, and success than their fantasy line does. Even the concept art for Warpath looks worlds better to me than the concepts that have debuted over the course of the second KOWKS. Better as in the difference between professional grade and amateur.
Wherever you stand, I think it's clear that Mantic's sci-fi line benefitted tremendously from going second, after they cut their teeth on the first KOW kickstarter. As a Mantic sci-fi fan, I'm very happy KOW happened first.
It's only fair to say that I prefer sci-fi anyway, though.
And to be even fairer, I have to say that the Nature army is looking like Mantic's best-designed KOW faction yet. I'm almost tempted to jump over the sci-fi fence for that one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Open Day photos are looking great so far. I love the Asterian designs particularly. Using robots as HIPS troopers is a smart move, as it doesn't invalidate the restic cyphers, which can still function as elite troopers. The Asterian tank looks lovely, too.
Some of the photos aren't really good enough to get a good bead on the models, though, so I look forward to seeing more. It's hard to tell much about the Koris yet, for example.
Blaine from the DKQ ks is up, along with some of the heroes:
The new Veermyn look good to me and I like that they are rather hairless I was worried I'd be stuck with a faction I didn't want like the marauders but I can definitely work with these. There are new Forgefathers proper ones not just redressed fantasy ones. Ronnie mentions in the BoW weekender that Deadzone Infestation is Veermyn versus Enforcer Pathfinders but as it's a mining colony the Brokkrs are also in the mix.
GrimDork wrote: Huh. Can't wait to hear how much people don't like the veermyn.
Look ok to me so far but those will come down to colors a bit for me.
Well... I never liked bare-armed rat dudes, I prefer a prevalence of fur. However they're creepier if there's more skin showing so some may like that.
The beast has potential, but that colored artwork towards the end... they look too... i dunno is it cute?
Steel warrior renders look good. Pretty similar to the current variety but with scifi bits rather than fantasy, so about right imo.
My 4-year-old, who has a good eye for these things, decided the Veer-myn look "dumb." On the other hand, he loves the "Beast." I'm a harder sell when it comes to large rat monsters; rat Ogres, Skaven abominations, etc. always looked stupid to me.
I prefer Remy's Veer-myn sculpts, and the arms are part of that - most of his Veer-myn arms are fully or partially covered with armor, rags, etc.. I agree with Grimdork that bare pumped up human arms don't work for me. Some HIPS Veer-myn could be useful to convert / play around with, though.
I have to agree that the artwork makes the Veer-myn look silly rather than menacing. (And while I'll readily admit that the idea of space ratmen is fundamentally silly, in sci-fi / fantasy, where most things are inherently absurd, presentation is everything. The right art can make them work.
The Steel warriors look good, as do the Pathfinders. Neither are that much different from things I already have in restic, though.
Yeah I'd be down for at least one of those. The aesterian tank is cool too. Actually so's the starwars hoverbike and the chunkier asterian cypher. Actually if that's a battledroid maybe it's just solely AI with no highly skilled pilot, more of a grunt unit.
Now that I'm over my earlier nerdgasm, I'd guess that these Cyphers are not remote piloted. These ones are probably generic grunt models while the previous Deadzone ones were more special forces types. Either way, I still really like them. Asterians continue to be my favorite non-human race, I think. Though, those new Forgefathers designs look great, too. I'm glad to see they decided to keep the enclosed helmets.
Are you sure they're the grunts? i thought those battle droids were supposed to be large walkers, ie the Asterian equivalent to the Striders, Stuntbot and Iron Ancestor
I was very disappointed with the Asterian droids i got from the KS. They look like they were whittled out of tiny match sticks. I would be much happier with the slightly rounder, slightly bulkier look shown above.
Wild woman druid looks interesting. Male druid looks boring...while suffering from Inexplicable And Impractical Adornment Syndrome.
I will keep my dollar in but with Mantic i have learned to wait for the final models to be shown.
I think I agree on the veermyn. One thing to be said about clean though is you can usually dirty it up. If I can't get over the bare arms, I may just have to sculpt some fur. Well assuming I get them, but they'll most likely be an integral component of the main pledge level.
I have no facts detailing the asterian battle droids as grunts, it was just my guess. Given the way other large asterian units look, the droid looks more like he's cypher sized than, say, the concept for the tank. Still speculation though.
I'd say Veermyn will be an intregal part of the Infestation box set but it's likely that existing owners won't need to get the box set just the updated rulebook (which all DZ1 backers will get as digital version anyway) and then add on as you like at the end of the day the box set pledge would probably still be the best value even if you don't particularly want some of it.
There's been a lot of requests for an Asterian large mech for Deadzone as they are the only faction without one but it would be slightly disappointing if it's just a bigger Cypher. It will be intersting to see what they do with the Asterian HIPS troops, the battle droids in HIPS and keeping the Cyphers in restic as elites probably makes most sense. Whatever they choose I've shelved plans to start my Asterians until after the DZ2 KS reveals all (no point painting restic troops if they get replaced with hard plastic which is why my Enforcers are waiting for wave 3 delivery)
The Warpath alpha rules are due on Christmas day according to Ronnie so that might reveal more.
Oh cool. I've got someone trying to play 40k with me and we were sticking to the 6th ed rules due to not wanting to buy the new book right away... Maybe we can try out the new warpath soon instead.
I'm sure I'll be ok with the veermyn, I may just not want to double them up like I did almost everything in wave 1/2.
GrimDork wrote: I think I agree on the veermyn. One thing to be said about clean though is you can usually dirty it up. If I can't get over the bare arms, I may just have to sculpt some fur.
Well sure, but it is still a bit strange as I think the current Veer-myn design is quite good. So I don't know why they decided to change it.
I'd be willing to bet money that the battle droids will be grunt troops, not Mechs. It makes sense. Doing the Cyphers over in HIPS is redundant and instantly turns the existing restic ones into a non-seller, so the Asterians need something else as a basic HIPS trooper. Doing what the Battle Droid concept as a Mech only makes the Asterians look even more uniform and less distinctive, as DaveC said. And "Battle Droids" smacks of Star Wars, where the term described grunt troops. That last one may be a bit of a stretch, but take a look at the Asterian flying bike and then tell me that Mantic never looked at Episode 1 when dreaming up their Asterian concepts.
For what it's worth, I prefer the new Droid design to the current Cyphers. It's my favorite image to come out of Open Day so far. It's labeled "Warpath," though, so I guess we won't be seeing any new Asterian forces anytime soon.
I'll keep an open mind about the Veer-myn until we see more of them. It might be worth my while to swap in some new arms, although I can't see myself bothering with sculpting on new fur.
In general, none of the Deadzone images - Veer-myn, Peacekeeper, or Brokkr - are grabbing me by the throat as "must haves." I like the two Peacekeepers I already have just fine (the Deadzone character and the female sniper). Those two add a nice bit of variety to my fully armored troopers, but I think I prefer the Peacekeepers as a spice rather than a main course. I love the standard Enforcer helmets, and would rather field a platoon of the fully armored guys than an entire squad of Peacekeepers. The Brokkrs (Steel Warriors) are of some interest, because if I add them in with the FF I already own, you get more variety than you usually would from a single unit type. On the other hand, between my current Steel Warriors and Stormrage Vets, they aren't different enough to be necessary purchases, either.
Nothing looks terrible, I'm just not very excited by what I've seen so far. I'll be following the KS closely to see how things evolve.
The Warpath battle droids and vehicles, on the other hand, look fantastic.
GrimDork wrote: I have no facts detailing the asterian battle droids as grunts, it was just my guess. Given the way other large asterian units look, the droid looks more like he's cypher sized than, say, the concept for the tank. Still speculation though.
To me the details (especially the feet), the proportions and thickness of the limbs, and the alternate CC arms with an integrated gun arm make me think it's going to be a walker, but it seems I'm just guessing as well
Still calling it, If that's a walker then more power to it... but I don't think it has enough of what I'd call "aesterian frills" to be as such. Should be interesting in either case! Especially in hard plastic.
GrimDork wrote: Oh cool. I've got someone trying to play 40k with me and we were sticking to the 6th ed rules due to not wanting to buy the new book right away... Maybe we can try out the new warpath soon instead.
I'm sure I'll be ok with the veermyn, I may just not want to double them up like I did almost everything in wave 1/2.
Ronnie said "New" Warpath won't ship until 2016, the rules development is still early on in the process, and their counting on the DZ2 to produce the pastic infantrly that would be required for a poper Warpath game.
GrimDork wrote: Ahh, I thought someone had said we'd see the rules out, well trial rules, by december or something.
I think trial rules were originally intended to be a bonus part of DZ2. It was unclear from yesterday's seminar whether that would still be the case, or whether it'll be a separate announcement at some point.
I can't see that at the moment, I did just sit through TheBeastsofWar Weekender: Ronnie Renton Talks Kings Of War & More!. Almost an hour of it is Ronnie talking, KoW2, DBE, DZ, DZ2, and Warpath. Warpath discussion starts 1:11:11.
Warpath is not going to be KoW in space, but still wants to be fast, simple, intutive.
Breaking the unit more important than casualties.
There will be wounds and suppression.
Taking over buildings, gaining ground, and objectives, likely to be a focus of game play.
He does say "end of the year" after DZ2, and DZ2 is January 2015
Quick start rules for free he is discussing are for DeadZone.
I think the implication was that although there won't be a public release of Warpath until 2016, the KS project to get it done is likely to be the third of three they do next year - three in a year is enough it seems, though I guess there's always the chance they'll do a 4th if they get another licence like Mars Attacks.
I've just watche the BoW Weekender, and I have to say the way Ronnie described the whole buildings clearing aspect of WP 2.0 sounds exactly like old school Space Marine writ big.
I didn't think I could get more excited for WP, but there you go.
Yeah if they've already got a fair amount of the core infantry tooled and the kickstarter is focusing on even more hard plastic and especially vehicles... boom.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How did the building clearing work in short? Are the buildings solid structures that don't require an interior to be modeled and then there's some form of rolling going on?
Watched BOW with Ronnie. Glad to hear I was wrong about the Asterian HIPS troopers being considered only for Warpath; sounds like they're going to be an "if we get that far" item for Deadzone 2.0 first.
How did the building clearing work in short? Are the buildings solid structures that don't require an interior to be modeled and then there's some form of rolling going on?
You're probably better watching the video than have me do a half-arsed job of explaining it (the 1:20 mark or thereabouts). But the gist as far as I can grasp it is if a squad can move 6" into a building they can contest it, cue internal firefight if an enemy force is inside with windows blowing out and bodies falling from the heights etc etc, and then the buildings become defendable firepoints, and as such are import topographical features in board control.
Actually no, I have more, but it does fit surprisingly well onto the 'average' grass/mud board scheme. Throw on some trees and you have a prefab colony on the edge of a logging forest.
Yeah the multi deadzone mats almost draw down your creativity a bit as they kind of slave your thinking into squares and cubes. I don't really have much of a fantasy board anymore but I may have to try setting my DZ terrain up on what's left of it to see how it looks.
Also, finishing some more terrain would be appropriate =/
Speaking of using DZ terrain on a regular board, when I was stuck ona train the otehr day I started theorising how to adapt DZ rules to a freeform board, I could kinda see how it could be done, mostly using the 3" cube idea as a measuring stick, basically using 3" as the standard measurement. So a short move was 3". a run 6", any weapon with a 6 cube range was 18", any blast weapon which effected one cube was a 3" blast radius, and so on.
Playing a 4x4 surface (such as the above board, I'd probably increase the blast radii and movement just to make up for what would be a more sparse board, but I reckon it could work.
One cube effect would be a 1,5" blast radius, but fair enough I think a few people on here discussed playing Deadzone like that about a year ago already - from what i recall they said it works pretty well.
GrimDork wrote: How did the building clearing work in short? Are the buildings solid structures that don't require an interior to be modelled and then there's some form of rolling going on?
They are handled in a fairly abstract way. I guess if you were thinking a cross between area terrain and entering a transport vehicle you would be thinking along the right lines (actually this is true of a lot of terrain). Disclaimer: many things could change between now and release, do not treat this as gospel but my personal feeling is that the interaction between units and terrain is well handled.
Could be similar to how Dropzone Commander handles buildings and iinfantry. If so I'm hoping we can destroy said buildings with the infantry still in it!
I've not had the chance to watch the weekenders yet, but it does sound fairly similar so far to the breach and clear rules BOW were discussing that were in the Aftermath game
As the sculptor of Mantic's plastic terrain kits, I approve of this sentiment.
Oh. Hello.
While we have you here. PVC pipe is cheap in any home improvement store. I'd prefer not to waste sprue space on those large tubes when they're readily available elsewhere.
As the sculptor of Mantic's plastic terrain kits, I approve of this sentiment.
Oh. Hello.
While we have you here. PVC pipe is cheap in any home improvement store. I'd prefer not to waste sprue space on those large tubes when they're readily available elsewhere.
Battlezones can easily be made out of foamboard and cardboard, no way they'll be a big seller, right?
I, too, would prefer a larger range or more volume of smaller gubbins, but I also know that I won't complain about having large details pipes when it comes down to it.
Nice work on the terrain, fancy stuff, I own far too much.
Battlezones can easily be made out of foamboard and cardboard, no way they'll be a big seller, right?
Oh, wait...
That's a stupid comparison. Buying battlezones saves you a lot of time and effort compared to scratch building, buying Mantic pipes will have a lot less payoff. Apart from probably nicely connecting to battlezone panels at end points, there won't be any additional functionality. Given that resources are limited, I'd rather have something with a better development cost vs hobby value added ratio.
Battlezones can easily be made out of foamboard and cardboard, no way they'll be a big seller, right?
Oh, wait...
That's a stupid comparison. Buying battlezones saves you a lot of time and effort compared to scratch building, buying Mantic pipes will have a lot less payoff. Apart from probably nicely connecting to battlezone panels at end points, there won't be any additional functionality. Given that resources are limited, I'd rather have something with a better development cost vs hobby value added ratio.
Perhaps the pipes will have a lot of functionality with the battlezone kits and higher levels of detail than a bit of pipe from the hardware store will.
The comparison is no more stupid than instantly dismissing something as a waste of time and resources just because a similar thing exists somewhere else.
You've got to realize they are selling a "sci fi industrial terrain set". A prominent feature of sci fi industrial terrain is massive fething pipes. If they DON'T have massive fething pipes in there, and say "here's everything but the massive fething pipes, which you need to go and buy at the hardware store", then that is a terrible marketing move.
Edit : Looking at the pipes more, there's all kinds of detail on there. You gonna add that to your hardware store pipes? Your job lot of conduit is to the Mantic pipes is as foamboard is to Battlezone tiles...
Silly Mantic included bases in their products. Don't they know that they could just send people to the hardware store to buy some sheet plastic and cut some bases out of that?
Battlezones can easily be made out of foamboard and cardboard, no way they'll be a big seller, right?
Oh, wait...
That's a stupid comparison. Buying battlezones saves you a lot of time and effort compared to scratch building, buying Mantic pipes will have a lot less payoff. Apart from probably nicely connecting to battlezone panels at end points, there won't be any additional functionality. Given that resources are limited, I'd rather have something with a better development cost vs hobby value added ratio.
I have no time and/or desire to go buy PVC pipe and cut it down and glue on crap in an effort to make it look like NOT pvc pipe which 100% of all other terrain I've seen that uses pvc pipe looks like crappy pvc pipe. I will buy the gak out of pipes that don't look like crappy pvc pipe.
So, Mantic could release battlezones with pipes and the free market will decide. You will not buy them, I will buy more than enough to cover you.
Very nice Evil & Chaos - now if you can just convince them to do a 1.5"x1.5" square panel and/or 1.5"x1.5" X frame I'd be set
For me personally it comes down to time versus money, I have little hobby time (or inclination) to spend scratch building but I have the funds to buy a kit that doesn't require a huge amount of work or time on my part sure I can buy hardware store pipe or sheets of mdf, insulating foam but just give me the finished version in a box and I'll pay the extra for that instead. Each to their own though perhaps the pipes will be a separate kit/sprue and the gubbins will be their own sprue an accessory frame 2 as it were.
The problem I have is that I still haven't assembled 80% of my Deadzone terrain (I did get like a dozen or more sets). Scratch building PVC pipe is laughable because I still haven't had time to assemble terrain which only requires a minimal amount of effort.
judgedoug wrote: The problem I have is that I still haven't assembled 80% of my Deadzone terrain (I did get like a dozen or more sets). Scratch building PVC pipe is laughable because I still haven't had time to assemble terrain which only requires a minimal amount of effort.
Just send it over to me. I'll assemble it for you and maybe send it back.
judgedoug wrote: The problem I have is that I still haven't assembled 80% of my Deadzone terrain (I did get like a dozen or more sets). Scratch building PVC pipe is laughable because I still haven't had time to assemble terrain which only requires a minimal amount of effort.
Just send it over to me. I'll assemble it for you and maybe send it back.
I hope to take a week off in January and "catch up" on my hobby stuff - if I can't get it assembled even then I may sell some of it just because it takes up SO much room.
judgedoug wrote: The problem I have is that I still haven't assembled 80% of my Deadzone terrain (I did get like a dozen or more sets). Scratch building PVC pipe is laughable because I still haven't had time to assemble terrain which only requires a minimal amount of effort.
Not to mention PVC pipe does not scale well with the terrain we have, whether it be Deadzone or GW terrain. I actually sell PVC pipe for a living (and all sorts of plumbing stuff) and even the smallest stuff just doesn't scale right. Especially the fittings ( 90's, tees etc.) which are just too big to scale with 28mm figures / terrain. I've tried many times. I'm glad Mantic is coming out with accessories for their own terrain. Just makes sense, really.
Yeah. I'm not going to the hardware store unless it's to actually do something productive around the house, otherwise the wife might start getting ideas about what I should actually be doing with my free time.
Give me my cheap restic sci fi pipes any day of the week.
I have no idea where people find PVC pipes thin enough to use for plumbing, like the small Mantic ones in the pic. I've been to 3 different hardware stores looking for PVC pipes and the thinnest ones are just thin enough to be used as sewer pipes, but that's it. ive seen drinking straws used as thin pipes, but that's fiddly at best. Also, PVC pipes don't have any rivets, valves, solder lines etc, and need work to look good.
Battlezones can easily be made out of foamboard and cardboard, no way they'll be a big seller, right?
Oh, wait...
That's a stupid comparison. Buying battlezones saves you a lot of time and effort compared to scratch building, buying Mantic pipes will have a lot less payoff. Apart from probably nicely connecting to battlezone panels at end points, there won't be any additional functionality. Given that resources are limited, I'd rather have something with a better development cost vs hobby value added ratio.
Perhaps the pipes will have a lot of functionality with the battlezone kits and higher levels of detail than a bit of pipe from the hardware store will.
The comparison is no more stupid than instantly dismissing something as a waste of time and resources just because a similar thing exists somewhere else.
You've got to realize they are selling a "sci fi industrial terrain set". A prominent feature of sci fi industrial terrain is massive fething pipes. If they DON'T have massive fething pipes in there, and say "here's everything but the massive fething pipes, which you need to go and buy at the hardware store", then that is a terrible marketing move.
Edit : Looking at the pipes more, there's all kinds of detail on there. You gonna add that to your hardware store pipes? Your job lot of conduit is to the Mantic pipes is as foamboard is to Battlezone tiles...
As someone who's used both straws and PVC pipes as well as pre-textured pipes (Pegasus Chemical plant kit) in terrain making I can attest that there is a great advantage to a reasonably priced plastic pipe kit that has texture (bands, rivets, etc) on it already. When building a good sized construction, it takes quite a bit of work to not only cut, but add the detailing to bring them to the same level of detail. Not that it can't be done, but plastic kit pieces are just so much easier to work with and save lot of time. If they are on a metric that combines well with the mantic terrain pieces, that's makes it an even better product.
If I'm going to use PVC, it's going to be for a large construction like an oil pipleline where the scale of the construction draws the eye away from the lack of finer detail. You see this alot in GW studio layouts and it looks quite good, but for a smaller construction or emplacement I'd definitely consider using the mantic pipes.
DBX started shipping this morning theres a video on facebook of all the packed boxes so far waiting for collection by Royal Mail. Wave 1 appears to be the same for everyone boxed game plus one or 2 bits so hopefully mispacks at a minimum.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Just after the KS for Kings of Hazzard: the Brutal Game of Fantasy Stunt Driving. Looking forward to the Kurt Russel/ Death Proof homage mini.
Don't forget the Death Race/ David Carradine mini as well!
Actually, your game sounds kind interesting... especially if it was done with a bit of cheesy 70s exploitation movie flair...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Just after the KS for Kings of Hazzard: the Brutal Game of Fantasy Stunt Driving. Looking forward to the Kurt Russel/ Death Proof homage mini.
Triszin wrote: So when does the KS start for Deadzone: Emergence? and Dreadball 2/warpaths?
If I was to hazard a guess, I would say March for Deadzone: Infestation, June for what I guess is another Dreadball project? And then October for Warpath. That fits their previous pattern, and I can't see them wanting to run a project as large as Warpath any closer to Xmas than that.
On BoW Ronnie was talking about 2015 being the year of Dreadball. Not sure if that means the middle project is another Dreadball one or not, so just a guess.
The KoW pledge manager is going to be open until January. I would have thought February at the earliest, especially if they need the extra lead time to get Veermyn and Asterian hard plastics in hand before hitting the go button on Warpath.
3 KS per year is what they seem to be planning for with Deadzone: Infestation starting in January (in the slot that KoW was supposed to take) and Warpath closer to the year end. Not sure what the third will be I don't think it's more Dreadball though there was a year and a half between the 2 Dreadball KS. DBX has to get it's retail releases in 2015 it's the only project ready to go to retail as both KoW and DS won't be ready until mid year at earliest, there's a little bit of Deadzone left to release and some Mars Attacks bits too. Not sure there's even much let to add to Dreadball to justify another KS does the game need another 12 teams for 37 in total
Ronnie addressed this in the seminar video. Basically they're not going to do it due to the little support space combat games get from the community, although if there is a big enough community push (as always with Mantic) they may do a small project in comjunction with FFG using their existing rules.
Enforcers dogfighting junky marauder ships and trying to stop plague-crewed ships from running blockades around deadzones? Ooooh yeah.
Plus the X-wing rules seem really nice. And mantic's scifi scene has already been pretty heavy into the cards so why stop now.
Not as sure about the newer system that comes with the big ships, but X-Wing seems pretty awesome but I'd like cheaper plastic/restic/metal ships that I get to paint myself that come from Mantic's warpath universe.
I'm not a fan of space combat games, but I'd think it would be better if it followed WP and more expansion to the background of the IP. Just my 2 pence.
There's a lot of neat mini-fluff on the x-wing cards, warpath needs some big books brimming with fluff (and good rules) but even little details and characters included on upgrades and character cards like in X-wing would be nice.
.Mikes. wrote: Basically they're not going to do it due to the little support space combat games get from the community,
Probably because GW was the only company to have made more than a half-assed attempt at it in the first place? BFG was pretty big until Specialist Games got axed.
Having played X-Wing a couple of times I feel it would be interesting to try a decent capital ship combat game, though I really like the dogfighting in X-wing. I'd take both , but if I had to pick the smaller scale would be more to my interest.
Alex C wrote: Maybe that Fantasy Deadzone they're definitely never going to make
They want to do it, but Jake doesn't have the bandwidth to work on it in the near future, so unless another designer appears with a solid concept it's not going to be soon.
Nobody really supports space combat because I dont think anyone has done it justice yet. I like Firestorm Armada but those ships are just too LOLHEWGE (though I do love painting them if you look at my gallery) and the ranges too large for a standard gaming table. It always ends up last two ships circling each other.
Now if they did it with smaller ships and ranges so you could actually do fleet manuevers it would be of interest,
I hope they get someone else other then Jake to do the rules for the KoW Deadzone version as it gives Mantic another games designer to work with (I know Alliesio does WP and KoW). They really could do with an in house games designer. Also I feel Jakes rules whilst good they aren't the best and I feel the force balance needs a lot of work (hello dz rebels and DB forge fathers I'm looking at you). They really need to lay of dreadball for a bit as well as deadzone (it doesn't need an add on just yet). Concentrate on getting Warpath ready and getting hard plastic kits out for Warpath and KoW. Even if you do a KS for just plastic sprues people will go mad for them.
Ronnie addressed this in the seminar video. Basically they're not going to do it due to the little support space combat games get from the community.
X-Wing is huge where I live, bigger than any Mantic game. I can see no reason not to make it happen. Ships cast in pre-assembled coloured plastic, get a whole fleet in a box for £15, that would be awesome.
Compel - Stick with Full Thrust, it is a great set of rules even if the book-keeping is a bit tricky. I recommend using the vector movement rules, they are pretty simple and lots of fun, really capture the motion of moving around in space. Use matchsticks to track your current vector, leaving them in place after you drift your ship, then make the thrust move with the ship and draw a line from the start and end points using a tape measure to give you your new vector (the angle of the tape measure) and your new drift speed (the distance on the tape measure).
I certainly feel that they need to get more rules staff on board - while there is something to be said for having a singular vision (as some of the better-known boardgame designers like Knizia or Daviau can demonstrate), a wargame is an inherently non-precise thing that needs a lot of brains throwing out ideas and finding problems.
I will say that Mantic's current approach for 'boardgame' rules makes it much more likely that the games I own will get played - if you understand Dreadball then it's much easier to understand Mars Attacks, if you understand Mars Attacks then Deadzone is only a bit more complex.
For what it's worth, I think that the current focus on boardgames/skirmish games is a good one. It enables them to create multiple full revenue-generating products and expansions (and with a lot of the content for the price, as the production costs have essentially already been paid), extends their brand and IP presence, and in some cases is actually creating content for the wargame-level stuff directly.
I do fully understand that this is frustrating if you have an attitude of "I'd really like to play your Sci-Fi wargame, please"! "Just a second, we need to wrap up shipping Deadzone first. Oh, and we need to deliver Mars Attacks. And Kings of War needs a little fleshing out. Can't forget about all of those Deadzone plastics! Ah, and we should really push for a Deazone expansion while we're at it. Will probably Kickstart Warpath at some point next year though! Of course, delivery will take 6+ months, so you probably won't see anything until 2016..."
From the comments this wave consists of the lithograph, transfer sheet and the boxed game with 2 bags of each team (10 per bag) (Convicts and Asterians only), 2 bags of Free Agents (9 per bag) Blaine and the Warden are also in this bag so apparently you get 2 of each and two bags of crates/scenery. Wave 2 which is the rest of Season 4 and some 3rd party bits to follow in January and wave 3 season 5 and 6 in May/June
DaveC wrote: DBX started shipping this morning theres a video on facebook of all the packed boxes so far waiting for collection by Royal Mail. Wave 1 appears to be the same for everyone boxed game plus one or 2 bits so hopefully mispacks at a minimum.
Pete Melvin wrote: Nobody really supports space combat because I dont think anyone has done it justice yet. I like Firestorm Armada but those ships are just too LOLHEWGE (though I do love painting them if you look at my gallery) and the ranges too large for a standard gaming table. It always ends up last two ships circling each other.
To be fair, I can't think of many games of BFG that didn't end in the same way.
Same too with a lot of naval games, I think it's just a consequence of any game where you have limited turn radius and template movement.
At a guess they will prioritise and finish DBX shipping first as everyone is getting the same its easy to pack plus they will want it in peoples hands by Christmas. Deadzone wave 3 has a lot of packing options even for the small amount of product offered it should follow straight after DBX some people might get it just before Christmas some after.
Mantic never seem to combine shipping for projects even if it would save them money I guess its just a packing headache to mix projects. I'm waiting on DBX, DZ wave 3 and a SciFi Christmas box the Christmas box shipped yesterday.
^The enforcer stuff is really promising, that dropship is fancy. And hard plastic not-spacemarine not-scouts are also quite fancy And the jetbike. Giving me a starwars hoverbike vibe which is... not a bad thing. Plus the Asterian stuff is even more esoteric than Eldar designs which is not a bad thing as far as this guy is concerned.
What's wrong with the fortified sets? I got a gakload of stuff in my MA pledge, and probably won't have the time to go through them until work wraps up for the year in a couple more weeks.
Was fortified available during the DZ Wave 2? I got a few scenery sets there, but nowhere near the amount I got in MA. feth, I hope I don't have to look through my DZW2 sets as well.
I got my Dreadball Extreme today. Not really looked properly, but the models look good, perhaps the detail of the faces are a little shallow but again that was a quick look.
pretre wrote: I'm betting that they miss one of my sets of enforcers because of the 'bonus starter' from Strike Team.
hah, I think I have the greatest chance of missing Enforcers. I bought INDIVIDUAL restic Enforcers from the FIRST Survey, which is supposed to translate to sprues somehow.
Shrug!
agnosto wrote: Since these are hard plastic on sprue, I'm looking forward to no missing parts survey....at least once.
I've had zombie and terrain sprues which were missing pieces off of them...
So did I, but they were in the box.
Mine were not in a couple cases. And I did look pretty hard.
But Sarah/Mantic did send replacements, so it all ended up fine.
Well crap, there goes my hope because I've had rotten luck with missing pieces from everything I've received from Mantic. They'll eventually sort everything out but I'll just wind up losing interest while they go through the process.
After seeing Ronnie and all those bags and boxes of DBX waiting to be mailed out, I'm hoping I get my copy before vacation really gets into full swing.
As nice as it will be to have those sprues of guys coming in, I have yet to paint a single Enforcer, and I don't see that changing any time soon, hard plastic or not, whereas DBX can probably hit the table the same day it arrives.
My scifi crazy box arrived overall I'm happy with the contents I got more than I paid in parts I want and the stuff I'm meh about I can still find a use for.
Contents of box labelled SF2 spoilers in case you want to be surprised
Spoiler:
1 ruined scenery sprue (sprue A&B)
1 connector sprue
2 Accessory sprues
1 Metal Chovar
1 Dozer Terraton MVP
Bag of 3 plague stage 3s
1 Praetorian MVP
1 Zzor Guard
Bag of Marauder commando and goblin sniper
1 marauder Warpath command frame
1 Maruader Bull vehicle
Got my DBX box today. Lovely stuff. The plastic crates caught my eye especially, they are a huge leap forward compared to the DZ accessory sprue and resin item crates. I hope we can get plastic item crates like these in DZ2.
Any idea why there was a second sheet of cardboard chits?
The one in the box was extremely well-cut, on slightly thinner cardboard - the tokens almost fall out on their own. The one outside the box was on thicker cardboard, with the standard two little tear points in the cutting.
It could just be that they changed their production method for the final retail product after the initial box assembly (which already didn't have all the models/rulebook in it), and packed in the updated sheets externally because it was easier than opening up the boxes to replace them. They actually changed materials in Dreadball on newer printings - the new tokens and cards are substantially nicer.
Do people have a list of what should be in the box? I have:
1 Bag Sponsors & Free Agents (11 models)
2 Bags Mixed Asterians & Convicts (20 models)
2 Bags Scenery
2 Token Sheets
2 Sheets of Transfers
1 Rulebook
1 Bag of dice
1 Set of cards (small)
1 Rubberised play mat
2 Sets of coloured bases (1 blue, 1 yellow)
I got mine the other day. Hate the half sized cards, honest to gods hate them. Is it just so they fit on the pitch? Money saving? Either way, to hell with their stupid half sized cards. If they release full sized real cards I will snap them up but meantime I suppose I'm reduced to squinting and asking people to read them for me. Rubbish.
Daedleh wrote: Because they've already done one with pictures of the sprues?
Because if they did then you'd be complaining that they're too busy sending out updates rather than sending out minis?
When have I ever said that? (the opposite: I think there should be updates constantly... like Mierce's kickstarters. Once a week, all the info from the previous week. Even if it's just a wip sculpt. Best Kickstarters ever run)
They've got the minis, they're giving them out to people. How hard is it to take some pics of assembled figs?
I should have been more specific with the sprues: we have only seen a shot of the badly cast Forge Guard sprue. Surely, with them available for order on the website, they have gotten them in the building, and can show us pics of the sprues and assembled Forge Guard.
I've been waiting to finish my Warpath Forge Fathers army for months now :/ (gray-white and orange color scheme)
I am with Judge on this, if you have a product in hand you should be chomping at the bit to show it off.
Yes they are busy with the Open Day and packing Dreadball X and posting Christmas orders but it seriously should not take more than 30 minutes of one persons time to get some decent pictures up of constructed minis.
It just makes people suspicious that there are issues with the sprues when there probably are none.
I mean, obviously I'm glad that they exist, and they gave some to some random people, who took a picture for it on their random blog, so that I can see one assembled Peacekeeper, and it looks good. And that's really nice and all. But I would like a big ol fat KS update saying "check out how awesome these dudes are! here's a bunch of pics showing 1237 different ways to assemble them with all these awesome bits! oh and here's some forge guard too bee tee dubs"
judgedoug wrote: I mean, obviously I'm glad that they exist, and they gave some to some random people, who took a picture for it on their random blog, so that I can see one assembled Peacekeeper, and it looks good. And that's really nice and all. But I would like a big ol fat KS update saying "check out how awesome these dudes are! here's a bunch of pics showing 1237 different ways to assemble them with all these awesome bits! oh and here's some forge guard too bee tee dubs"
And you wonder why I have such an aversion for all things Mantic now when I used to be a pretty big fan.
Edit:
They really are trying to just shoot themselves in the foot, continuously and with fantastic aim apparently.
judgedoug wrote: I mean, obviously I'm glad that they exist, and they gave some to some random people, who took a picture for it on their random blog, so that I can see one assembled Peacekeeper, and it looks good. And that's really nice and all. But I would like a big ol fat KS update saying "check out how awesome these dudes are! here's a bunch of pics showing 1237 different ways to assemble them with all these awesome bits! oh and here's some forge guard too bee tee dubs"
And you wonder why I have such an aversion for all things Mantic now when I used to be a pretty big fan.
Edit:
They really are trying to just shoot themselves in the foot, continuously and with fantastic aim apparently.
At what point did someone in Mantic say, "I know. Let's give some Peacekeepers to a random blog and post a link on our FB page so perhaps 100 people will see it... INSTEAD of sending pictures out in a Kickstarter update so everyone will see them and then go to the various online forums and repost the update and generate massive word of mouth about how cool they look! Definitely the former."
So, sorry to interrupt this uhh... I dunno what to call it, but anyway yeah soz and stuff...
DB rulebook for season 4 is now available to backers. There are concepts and models for fans... Were those uhh funded by the campaign? Were they something we could add on? Did they come in any pledge levels? They look kind of awesome and I want some.
Huh, probably skipped them. Well the shipping is in waves maybe they'll open another survey down the road. The heavyset guy with the beer can is priceless.
10 bucks for 3 fans, or 10 for 3 cheerleaders. I did not add them, and it seems now that it was a foolish choice not to. They look pretty sweet. So do the cheerleaders. Maybe if there's a second wave pledge manager like for deadzone... Hopefully they make it to retail too.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote:The image is restic enforcer, plastic peacekeeper, restic peacekeeper captain:
I went from being super enthusasitic about these coming to retail to contemplating a 6mm historical project with the money. It all just looks really soft. Especially the weapons and heads. The combat shields look excellent though, with the indents and details looking less rounded in. I love the torsos, legs and upper arms though. Some of the lower arms on some of them are super thin and small looking.
And now that I've watched the video all the way through, there is no way I'll be getting these. They intentionally smoothed over detail on the inside of some of the weapons where it'll be close to the torsos. This severely limits conversion potential:
Hmm. That is a bit of a shame. It will likely benefit the 'default poses' by allowing them to be tighter and whatnot, but it does limit conversion potential. I guess I'm glad I only ordered a couple sets which won't really need converting for originality.
For the 10 I have coming, I think I'll be quite pleased. But I guess if I want to chop some models up for crazy/dynamic poses, I'm best off sticking with space marines.
If they are cheap enough, I might get some and I'll cut off the arms right below the shoulders and find new heads and then I'll need to find lower arms and weapons.
frozenwastes wrote: If they are cheap enough, I might get some and I'll cut off the arms right below the shoulders and find new heads and then I'll need to find lower arms and weapons.
Why not just buy figures with heads and arms you like?
frozenwastes wrote: If they are cheap enough, I might get some and I'll cut off the arms right below the shoulders and find new heads and then I'll need to find lower arms and weapons.
Four dollars per mini.
Four dollars per mini.
It was worth repeating.
Still, I'll take all your unwanted melty-looking weapons for postage and maybe a bit more.
You guys are bitching over the arms on the sprue - that we already KNEW about? Should I refresh everyone's memories?
For literal feth's sake, guys.
Just as a reminder, since everyone has forgotten, you get SIX rifle arms, TWO heavy weapons arms - EIGHT right arms for FIVE Peacekeepers.
NOVEMBER 13 2014 - from this very thread, page 9, pics were posted, and everyone fawned over them. Why the sudden change? Note that you can clearly see the arms.
"These Enforcer Peacekeeper sprues are on a boat to us from the manufacturer and are due in at the start of the December. They will ship, alongside the Enforcer and Forge Guard sprues, plus anything you might have ordered in the third survey, as soon as the last component has arrived! "
Well to be fair it's more like 30 that all look five ways. So more six squads that all look the same, I guess.
Some of the arms probably aren't like that, but it seems like any of the rifles going across the chest will be.
*And now that I see the page flip and that it's really only 2/5 rifle arms, it's really even less bad. Even with space marines, the rifles and arms only fit so many ways and you'll still end up with similar/repeated poses if you have enough of them.
Actually yeah looking at the sprue closely... There are *six* rifle arms for some reason, plus an incinerator (ooh and laser). You could technically build a unit using none of the "bad arms" if you don't mind having a heavy weapon.
Yep never mind, I must just be grouchy today, looking at the sprues a second time has re-sold me on them.
GrimDork wrote: Well to be fair it's more like 30 that all look five ways. So more six squads that all look the same, I guess.
Some of the arms probably aren't like that, but it seems like any of the rifles going across the chest will be.
Five different torsos with different left/right leg combos and multiple extra weapons options you're going to assemble them all the same as clones of a set of five?
If you wanna complain about monopose, the thing to complain about is how the legs meet up with the bodies, those won't be nearly as variable as the arms.
But you ninja'ed me. I modified my post after I realized a page-flip and took a second look at the sprues (again). I still think the legs will be the weakest part but I was never worried about having clone units anyway. I was just replying to Agnosto there.
GrimDork wrote: If you wanna complain about monopose, the thing to complain about is how the legs meet up with the bodies, those won't be nearly as variable as the arms.
But you ninja'ed me. I modified my post after I realized a page-flip and took a second look at the sprues (again). I still think the legs will be the weakest part but I was never worried about having clone units anyway. I was just replying to Agnosto there.
Gotcha. I dunno, the fact we have separate left and right legs, and they are literally all different, .. how many different combinations is that? 125 just for torso/right leg/left leg alone? and then 625 total combinations including 6 rifles variants? That seems right on the money to me, way better than the Forge Father Steel Warriors sprue. I'm really happy I bought 15.
Actually, I'd like more. If anyone wants to sell them at KS price, $10 for five, I would like another 5 or 10. Any takers?
Daedleh wrote: Because they've already done one with pictures of the sprues?
Because if they did then you'd be complaining that they're too busy sending out updates rather than sending out minis?
Would anyone (with sense) really complain about either of those things? I mean, it's the internet, so someone will complain about any action or lack thereof - but the updates Doug suggested sounded quite reasonable.
We'll have to see how many leg combinations there *really* are though. I'm with you and I'm majority positive on the set. But this happened with the zombie sprues too. Some of the pieces just don't go together like you'd assume looking at the sprue. Several of the heads only match up well to one torso, and certain of the arms are the same way.
I think "kneeling legs guy" is only going to have one "real" leg combination. With cutting and maybe some minimal greenstuff work you can probably vary even that, but stock plastic and glue I think he's only gonna go one way well.
Again though, thanks for reposting the kit, I think I just caught the negativity bug earlier, lack of sunlight maybe
GrimDork wrote: We'll have to see how many leg combinations there *really* are though. I'm with you and I'm majority positive on the set. But this happened with the zombie sprues too. Some of the pieces just don't go together like you'd assume looking at the sprue. Several of the heads only match up well to one torso, and certain of the arms are the same way.
I think "kneeling legs guy" is only going to have one "real" leg combination. With cutting and maybe some minimal greenstuff work you can probably vary even that, but stock plastic and glue I think he's only gonna go one way well.
Even limiting certain legs to certain torsos, and hell, let's say certain arms to certain torsos, you're still looking at least a hundred combinations of just rifle guys alone.
But again, this is why I want Mantic to send us some nice high quality shots of assembled minis in, y'know, a KS update, and not some random video blog.
I doubt you'll be able to use each right leg with each left leg, but there will still be plenty of variation to play with. I really think these will look great when painted up in a good scheme.
RobertsMinis wrote: I doubt you'll be able to use each right leg with each left leg, but there will still be plenty of variation to play with. I really think these will look great when painted up in a good scheme.
And then cutting and GS will make the kits infinitely poseable, just as with current GW kits and really any other plastic kit, which is why plastics are so wonderful - easy to assemble as stock and easy to convert.
CptJake wrote: Why not just buy figures with heads and arms you like?
Why reward mediocrity like this?
I think the legs, torsos and shoulders are awesome. And I can't really think of a high tech looking suit of sci-fi power armour that will be nice and big and look good on 40mm warmachine style bases.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Four dollars per mini.
Four dollars per mini.
It was worth repeating.
Still, I'll take all your unwanted melty-looking weapons for postage and maybe a bit more.
If my local store can get them in for me at $20 per 5 (so probably $23.99 CAD) I'll probably grab a set and I'll post here about the arms/weapons. If a resin bitz manufacturer sold these torsos, legs and shoulders, I'd be interested just for those and that would cost more than these hard plastic ones.
judgedoug wrote:You guys are bitching over the arms on the sprue - that we already KNEW about? Should I refresh everyone's memories?
I'm sorry, but I'm not a serious Mantic follower. I pay attention here and there and have been waiting for a high res closeup of these miniatures. The previous images give a sense that there are flat spots on the inside of the guns and arms, but the video really showed what it was like.
And it's not just the flat detail less areas that make repositioning those arms pointless, it's also some of the design choices that I don't like. Like the tiny hands and thin arms on some arms but huge beefy ones on others. I get that it's like a GW terminator with one big marshmellow fist and one normal marine fist, but I don't like those either.
What I would love would be ten hands like the big punching fist and then I'd mount a gun onto one of their forearms. Maybe on the back, maybe underslung. That'd look awesome.
For people wanting these for Deadzone, I think they're decent. I don't like the mushy look of the details on some parts, but the price is right.
It's not... ideal? But it's two out of what maybe 8 right arms for 5 guys? So it's totally avoidable if you don't like it. Thinking back to the assembled guys we've seen so far (well masters) I do believe I like the poses those arms create. I'm just glad it's not the entire sprue.
GrimDork wrote: It's not... ideal? But it's two out of what maybe 8 right arms for 5 guys? So it's totally avoidable if you don't like it. Thinking back to the assembled guys we've seen so far (well masters) I do believe I like the poses those arms create. I'm just glad it's not the entire sprue.
Fair trade but why even have 2 like that? Would the simulation of a plastic army guy holding a gun at chest level and it not looking like it's growing out of his chest be too much to ask? Hell, GW get's that part right and they're run by a crowd of flying monkeys, circling Kirby's tower of doom.
Part of the problem here is that Mantic isn't giving us information, they're sending out production models to bloggers and we're getting snippets; I know they used to work for GW but their communication doesn't have to mirror that of their former employer... If the people in Mantic HQ would take the time to put some together and show everyone examples of what can be made from the kit.....yeah....almost seems to be a fair assessment.
That is also a fair point. I think they may end up being some of the cooler poses as far as actually aiming down the sights, but if that isn't the case then fail.
If I wanted them to be "as is" then I think they'll turn out fine. My hope for the kit was to do as much chopping and reposing as I remember doing back when I worked with GW marine plastics. Obviously it's not so bad not having a couple arm and weapon pieces you can't use except in the default pose, but given 3d design programs, I think it would have been possible to figure out how to keep all the detail and still make it fit in an aiming pose.
As it stands, I think these peacekeepers + resin weapon and arm parts will make a pretty awesome sci-fi power armour trooper, even if I don't like the design or detail on the mantic weapons.
I think that Mantic should have just gone with single arm firing poses. If you can't fire an assault rifle with one hand then your big bad power armor is insufficiently cool, and must be sent back to R&D immediately.
That being said, I think the compromise of shaving down the arm on the inside to get a firing pose was a reasonable one. Firing poses are hard to do in multipart plastic. I think it is disappointing, and will hurt the sales for the kit in the broader community a bit, but won't stop me from picking up the set at retail at some point.
Also, while I agree this is another "Mantic: Almost" I think they are getting closer and closer to a truly incredible plastic release. This is light years beyond their recent efforts. In another couple of years or so Mantic will release one of those kits that will keep selling for years to come and become a wargamer must have.
Also, while I agree this is another "Mantic: Almost" I think they are getting closer and closer to a truly incredible plastic release. This is light years beyond their recent efforts. In another couple of years or so Mantic will release one of those kits that will keep selling for years to come and become a wargamer must have.
So, this would be the Mantic Paradox, then? Just like Zeno's Paradox, each iteration Mantic is almost the rest of the way to the finish line?
I think it is disappointing, and will hurt the sales for the kit in the broader community a bit, but won't stop me from picking up the set at retail at some point.
.
Really? I would think the broader community wouldn't care as much as the peanut gallery on the Internet. People will see big chunky badass Sci Troopers and buy a couple of boxes.
Gallahad wrote: I think it is disappointing, and will hurt the sales for the kit in the broader community a bit, but won't stop me from picking up the set at retail at some point.
Really? I would think the broader community wouldn't care as much as the peanut gallery on the Internet. People will see big chunky badass Sci Troopers and buy a couple of boxes.
You don't think the broader community likes converting miniatures?
Hopefully someone can post photos of the actual miniatures from the base box - I'm actually quite impressed with them, although the slender true scale 28mm Asterians end up feeling tiny.
So have there been any updates from Mantic on when they might send W3 out? Because it's now mid-December, and with Christmas and such, it's feeling like they might be about to pull a "we started shipping in December" by getting one box out the door on New Year's Eve.
Grak the undisputed champion of the Furon arena, a hulking, dogged character that has spent his entire life playing for his Tsudochan task-maskers. In the arena, whether that’s the Furon games or the Tsudochan shipping him off to play on whatever backwater world is prepared to pay for his services, Grak is renowned for his immense strength, fully capable of picking up opposing players and hurling them across the pitch as if they were naught but a DreadBall...
agnosto wrote: Those dreadball minis look great in all the right over the top, SciFi ways.
Hey! No positive comments about Mantic products from you!
Hey, I don't hate everything that they do, I just thing their a group of well-meaning but largely incompetent people, in the business sense. For me, they're more miss than hit right now but maybe in 5-10years they'll be better at not hurting themselves...maybe some therapy in the form of hiring a real business manager would help them improve faster.
OT I like that Geldo too, put that on a plastic frame with weapon options and you have a better looking vespid than GW's.
All the alien races in DB allow Mantic to make some truly awesome mercenary units for Warpath if they choose to, a la Warmachine. That shark in particular. It's gone so far into silly it approached awesome from the other side.
Well mission control suggests Schnorkel or w/e will be in the second wave which is apparently in January (but I wonder...), but San-Gar (shark giant) looks more like wave 3 potentially in April or better.
And that's out to backers, not necessarily retail. But maybe gives you a bit of an idea.
The Saan-Gar (Shark) is wave 3 of the KS rumoured to be May/June to backers (some of wave 3 is still in design so it hasn't even hit production yet plus CNY and all that) so add 2 or 3 months for retail, Schnorkel is wave 2 in January so again add 2 or 3 months.
It's very true about some of these designs they've gone so over the top crazy with some them but it worked out great. Again their Sci-Fi stuff just seems to work out so much better than the fantasy stuff.
Awesome, Can't wait to get em. I love this route Mantic is going down. I am getting excited to see what Deadzone 2.0, then Warpath 2.0 Have in store for us. XD
Honestly, the biggest vibe I get from that power armored shark is the old Battle Beasts toys, in all the best ways possible. I will absolutely be picking one up in the near future, as I can't imagine a better not-teraton
I have to say - all three of those look really nice. The excellent paint obviously doesn't hurt, but the actual figures have turned out great. What material are those in?
I have to say - all three of those look really nice. The excellent paint obviously doesn't hurt, but the actual figures have turned out great. What material are those in?
I believe that there boardgame plastic the same as the mvp's in the wave 1 package.
Mission control says Grak and Schnorkel are in transit, and if that's Israla so is she.
If they're painted though, they're probably still masters.
If the eyes come out that well on squidlady and spoger in BGplastic, I'll be well pleased. If I have any complaints about some of the MA stuff it's weak facial features on some of the humans.
I dont know what you guys ae complaining about those peacekeepers...
Each sprue comes with bits for 5 guys, including 5 with combat shields, or 5 without. You have 2 "big guns" and 4 "1 arm rifles", in the sprue, and lastly, 2 options for "2 arms rifle", booth simplified for easy assembly...
It is not a GW or Dream Forge level of variety, but the price is also a fraction of those ones...
The Dwarf Wolf wrote: I dont know what you guys ae complaining about those peacekeepers...
Each sprue comes with bits for 5 guys, including 5 with combat shields, or 5 without. You have 2 "big guns" and 4 "1 arm rifles", in the sprue, and lastly, 2 options for "2 arms rifle", booth simplified for easy assembly...
It is not a GW or Dream Forge level of variety, but the price is also a fraction of those ones...
$31.50 for 20, highly detailed miniatures and enough extra bits to choke on. Interestingly enough, not a single melted weapon arm. Mantic should probably hire Mark to design their sprues for them.
The problem with the enforcers is that as a board game, the melted arm thing isn't an issue but if they're going to try and push this kind of lazy, cheap crap off on modelers and wargamers for an eventual Warpath release, people who are spoiled for choice already, they should have thought it through a bit more carefully.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote: I dont know what you guys ae complaining about those peacekeepers...
Each sprue comes with bits for 5 guys, including 5 with combat shields, or 5 without. You have 2 "big guns" and 4 "1 arm rifles", in the sprue, and lastly, 2 options for "2 arms rifle", booth simplified for easy assembly...
It is not a GW or Dream Forge level of variety, but the price is also a fraction of those ones...
A fraction of dreamforge prices? I suggest you look around a bit more.http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/35268/s/dfg-in-001/
$31.50 for 20, highly detailed miniatures and enough extra bits to choke on. Interestingly enough, not a single melted weapon arm. Mantic should probably hire Mark to design their sprues for them.
The problem with the enforcers is that as a board game, the melted arm thing isn't an issue but if they're going to try and push this kind of lazy, cheap crap off on modelers and wargamers for an eventual Warpath release, people who are spoiled for choice already, they should have thought it through a bit more carefully.
I think they've thought it through just fine for their plan. Sure it's not ideal for most of us, but they are making items that can be cross game compatible. People can buy bunches of these and get an army ready to go for beer and pretzel game night/launch of warpath free rules, OR I'm sure later on they will release more models to help flesh out the Warpath universe which will also be more detailed and more variety. They are just following the GW standard of make snap fit marines (3rd edition starter type) to get intrest in the game and get people playing/fund the growth. Then start making "blood enforcers", "dark enforcers", "Viking enforcers", "smurf enforcers" and " spiky enforcers". They are hitting their targets, just our idea of the target and theirs are not the same .
A fraction of dreamforge prices? I suggest you look around a bit more.http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/35268/s/dfg-in-001/
From my research Dreamforge and Mantic (and Warlord and Prodos) are more or less the same price for a basic box of troops, Mantic just scales a lot better when you start talking about 3+ boxes of troops and maybe a vehicle because they do better bulk discounts.
A fraction of dreamforge prices? I suggest you look around a bit more.http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/35268/s/dfg-in-001/
$31.50 for 20, highly detailed miniatures and enough extra bits to choke on. Interestingly enough, not a single melted weapon arm. Mantic should probably hire Mark to design their sprues for them.
The RRP for those is 42$ which Mantic beats with resin minis and when they hit plastic they are probably drop in price even more.
The problem with the enforcers is that as a board game, the melted arm thing isn't an issue but if they're going to try and push this kind of lazy, cheap crap off on modelers and wargamers for an eventual Warpath release, people who are spoiled for choice already, they should have thought it through a bit more carefully.
I don't see the problem with having some "melted" arms on the sprue, especially as those guns that have melted arms also have a hand sculpted to them so you are probably gonna want to stick the weapon the chest anyway.
A fraction of dreamforge prices? I suggest you look around a bit more.http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/35268/s/dfg-in-001/
From my research Dreamforge and Mantic (and Warlord and Prodos) are more or less the same price for a basic box of troops, Mantic just scales a lot better when you start talking about 3+ boxes of troops and maybe a vehicle because they do better bulk discounts.
They're cheaper because they don't offer anywhere near the options so they damn well better be cheaper.
DF, 10-man box $16.50 @ miniature market:
Mantic, 5-man peacekeeper box:
bear in mind sprue size for DF is substantially larger than Mantic's. I'm not sure what the price for the peacekeepers will be, I think someone mentioned $20 for the 5-man box at retail....There better be some massive bundle discounts to bring that down to DF levels.
edit: sorry, all of this is off topic so I'll just leave it at I value the DF models much higher than Mantic's. To each his/her own.
Yes, Dreamforge is awesome and if Mantic could get even close to what Mark puts into his stuff they'd print money. On the other hand, Mantic's release list for 2014 versus Dreamforge's list of releases is worth comparing too. Sure, awesome kits are great but there's something to be said for "good enough right now" too.
Looking at those arms, they appear to be "aiming down the sights" sort of arms. Does this mean that everyone with that arm will look similar? Sure. You know what else looks oddly similar? Any human aiming down the sights of a gun or firing from the shoulder; human anatomy is funny that way. Is it a bit lazy? Sure, but it works for that intended purpose. It DOES lower the value of the kits in comparison to other manufacturers who don't take such shortcuts, but I don't think it moves them into the realm of "garbage," especially at the prices you'll be able to acquire them at.
I think Mantic's motif is a steady stream of average stuff. Sometimes they get really good stuff (those DBX models are great, IMO...pending the transition to board game plastic being seen), sometimes they honk miserably (M@A, nuff said). Overall though, it's serviceable kits at a reasonable price. Not the best kits, not the best value but an okay combination of the two. Certainly we'd all benefit if they could step up the quality, but I'm happy enough with what's being shown. I'd like to know when I could expect to see it and some better shots as others have commented, but that's a different gripe...
Krinsath wrote: Yes, Dreamforge is awesome and if Mantic could get even close to what Mark puts into his stuff they'd print money. On the other hand, Mantic's release list for 2014 versus Dreamforge's list of releases is worth comparing too. Sure, awesome kits are great but there's something to be said for "good enough right now" too.
Looking at those arms, they appear to be "aiming down the sights" sort of arms. Does this mean that everyone with that arm will look similar? Sure. You know what else looks oddly similar? Any human aiming down the sights of a gun or firing from the shoulder; human anatomy is funny that way. Is it a bit lazy? Sure, but it works for that intended purpose. It DOES lower the value of the kits in comparison to other manufacturers who don't take such shortcuts, but I don't think it moves them into the realm of "garbage," especially at the prices you'll be able to acquire them at.
I think Mantic's motif is a steady stream of average stuff. Sometimes they get really good stuff (those DBX models are great, IMO...pending the transition to board game plastic being seen), sometimes they honk miserably (M@A, nuff said). Overall though, it's serviceable kits at a reasonable price. Not the best kits, not the best value but an okay combination of the two. Certainly we'd all benefit if they could step up the quality, but I'm happy enough with what's being shown. I'd like to know when I could expect to see it and some better shots as others have commented, but that's a different gripe...
All fair points. I guess I just come from the "if you're going to do, you might as well do it right" school of thought, which is how I was reared and apparently Mark is from the same school of thought. Sure he produces some fantastic kits but his release schedule is glacial but he's also a one man operation that had a $200k budget versus the more than a $1million for Mantic which meant he couldn't dictate terms to WGF on the release schedule.
On the kits themselves (dang I need to stop straying off-topic); I guess I'm just disappointed yet again by Mantic. They had an opportunity here, flush with cash from Kickstarter, to make something really fantastic. If it took investing some company money in addition to what they got from KS, they should have done it to make sure that they made something that wows. I think you're right in that they appear to be more concerned with producing average to below-average quality at an accelerated pace versus actually taking the time and effort to make something truly awesome.
As for the firing poses. I don't know about you, but when I fire a rifle, you can tell where my clothes end and the rifle begins, much like you can with any other company out there that doesn't go the lazy route and just makes what we've seen here. Again, for a boardgame, this is fine but if you're going to translate this into a Wargame, which I thought was the eventual intent (why else do plastic otherwise?), wargamers and modelers have different expectations and they should realize that.
I thought I heard somewhere perhaps it was even Ronnie himself said it that the DZ KS money wasn't enough to cover everything and they've put anther $80k or so in themselves since. It looks like they are restricted to that size of sprue and layout by their manufacturers capabilities. Extras would be great but I guess they are looking at it from a Warpath point of view - a mass of troops on table what each individual one looks like is less important than the overall look. which is how they seem to approach KoW as well - not to everyone's tastes mind. At $10 for 5 I consider these a good buy retail remains to be seen.
DaveC wrote: I thought I heard somewhere perhaps it was even Ronnie himself said it that the DZ KS money wasn't enough to cover everything and they've put anther $80k or so in themselves since
Doesn't sound likely.
Just look at what Dreamforge did with less than 1/5 of the Deadzone money: Two 28mm-scale hard plastic titans with dozens of alt weapon options, the same thing again tooled in 15mm, Eisenkern troops with more alt bits and weapons than you could ever use, same thing again for heavy armour dudes, same thing again for female troopers, as well as a few hard-plastic aliens for good measure. Oh, and that massive APC too, again with variant builds and options., etc.
I thought there was outside money added to the Dreamforge Kickstarter as well and even shares in the company given to Wargames Factory... Or so I was lead to believe.
Like I say just a vague recollection of some interview or other (plus Deadzone isn't just miniatures there's a whole game and all that goes with it to produce). Aren't WGF bank rolling some of the Dreamforge stuff against future sales? (EDIT I see RobertsMinis mentioned similar above me)
DaveC wrote: Like I say just a vague recollection of some interview or other Aren't WGF bank rolling some of the Dreamforge stuff against future sales? (EDIT I see RobertsMinis mentioned similar above me)
Never heard of that.
But let's just assume that DFG paid only the tooling from their KS, and financed everything else (KS-fees, shipping, packaging, design, postage, etc., etc.., etc.. by some other means).
If you roughly divide 1) Leviathan, 2) Mortis, 3) APC, 4) 15mm Titans, both variants, 5) Eisenkern + accessories, 6) other infantry + accessories by the 200.000 DFG got, that's just over 30.000 per multiple sprue kit tooled. The leviathan alone has .. um .. 6 or 8 large separate sprues?
If Mantic is spending 80.000 on a paltry little 3-sprue tooling like this, they need to punch somebody.
[edit]
And other companies seem to work in the same range.
Admittedly, it didn't fund, but Pro Gloria put a 30.000 EUR (!) price-tag on multi-sprue hard plastic Landsknecht troops with lots of options (incl. shipping, postage, fees, etc..).
So the tooling for a multi-pose, multi-part hard plastic infantry box with 3 sprues or so of the Space Marines/Enforcers/Eisenkern/Landsknecht caliber, is probably in the USD 30.000,- range at worst. Possibly lower.
DaveC wrote: Like I say just a vague recollection of some interview or other Aren't WGF bank rolling some of the Dreamforge stuff against future sales? (EDIT I see RobertsMinis mentioned similar above me)
Never heard of that.
But let's just assume that DFG paid only the tooling from their KS, and financed everything else (KS-fees, shipping, packaging, design, postage, etc., etc.., etc.. by some other means).
If you roughly divide 1) Leviathan, 2) Mortis, 3) APC, 4) 15mm Titans, both variants, 5) Eisenkern + accessories, 6) other infantry + accessories by the 200.000 DFG got, that's just over 30.000 per multiple sprue kit tooled. The leviathan alone has .. um .. 6 or 8 large separate sprues?
If Mantic is spending 80.000 on a paltry little 3-sprue tooling like this, they need to punch somebody.
Just to give you an idea of what it takes to make a kit like the APC; the time and resources required for such a large and complicated kit requires the dedicated effort of a skilled engineering staff many weeks of concentrated effort. The APC’s tool cost at retail would have been roughly 1/3 the total amount raised by the Kickstarter.
So clearly, it's not exactly cheap. Could Mantic have done better? If they wanted to spend more time probably, but they're also past when they thought this would be over with just to get this far. Again, time is not without value and at some point you hit a point of diminishing returns. Dreamforge has done awesome work at a decent price, but they've also had my money tied up for two years. Similar story with KD:M. You will notice in both of those campaigns a lot of backer fatigue due to the delays.
DaveC wrote: I thought I heard somewhere perhaps it was even Ronnie himself said it that the DZ KS money wasn't enough to cover everything and they've put anther $80k or so in themselves since
Doesn't sound likely.
Just look at what Dreamforge did with less than 1/5 of the Deadzone money: Two 28mm-scale hard plastic titans with dozens of alt weapon options, the same thing again tooled in 15mm, Eisenkern troops with more alt bits and weapons than you could ever use, same thing again for heavy armour dudes, same thing again for female troopers, as well as a few hard-plastic aliens for good measure. Oh, and that massive APC too, again with variant builds and options., etc.
Dreamforge took out a very substantial loan in addition to the KS money, got in on the ground floor with WGF so probably got rates that a new project would not be able to get, Has a project creator who is doing the 3d sculpting and fiddling fo back and forth on mould design and is running very, very late
so while superficially better value probably not a worthwhile comparison
Well... Dreamforge stuff is priced well, but until they significantly alter the aesthetic, the models do *nothing* for me. Seem like a good deal for people who like that not-ww2 vibe though.
agnosto wrote: I guess I just come from the "if you're going to do, you might as well do it right" school of thought, which is how I was reared and apparently Mark is from the same school of thought.
Which goes double when you're working in HIPS. These are kits that you could still be selling in fifteen years, so don't half-ass them. Every unit that needs a second kit later because you cut corners is a unit that never gets a first kit.
I haven't seen anyone do a proper unboxing of Dreadball Xtreme yet, so I figured that now that mine has arrived (after some drama with Royal Mail), I'll correct that.
First off, to add in a bit of context, I'll show off... The Shame.
These are the Deadzone Wave 2 models that I haven't got round to assembling yet. Fortunately, it's only a handful of actual models, with the rest being terrain.
However, Dreadball Xtreme! The box that arrived is surprisingly not that huge.
Opening it, it's very well packed.
After several minutes clearing out peanuts, I have:
So, there's some loose bits outside the box. - Including, 2 decal sheets, a set of tokens and a leaflet.
We've also got the box art photograph signed by a certain Ronnie.
And the rulebook itself. I was a little surprised to see it only included the rules for the first 2 sponsors, though. I'm going to wonder if there's enough variation with the free agents to keep people occupied for that.
Also loose in the box, were 2 accessory sets.
Also, the Free Agents set. This was unexpected, as I thought they would have come with the retail game. - Maybe it's just the individual Warden and Blaine models in the retail.
We then have, the box itself.
It's tightly packed, with the glorious mousemat mat and another leaflet. - Except, this time, the leaflet has the lovely lovely Mantic Points on the back of it!
The mat itself, is just awesome looking and is slightly smaller than the Deadzone one, at 22 inches. However, it's just glorious.
The mat is glorious, although I think the paint is rubbing off a bit.
I've been digesting my first game. I liked the gameplay a lot, although it will take some time go wrap my brain around. It's a very different game from anything I've played before.
I have two complaints. Feel free to chime in if I'm wrong.
1) Setup is long and tedious. We used the default teams, so usually it will take even longer with the army building added in. Before the game, you have to set up ~two dozen crates, first putting a random lid on them without looking at it, and working from a tiny, tiny setup diagram in the book. And there are 6 different layouts, so good luck learning them by heart.
2) There are a lot of meaningful tactical decision to make within a single Rush, but the game is so random that setting up any long-term strategy seems like an exercise in futility. It seems to me that the height of forward planning is "I have a few actions to spare this Rush, I'll spread out my guys a bit so I have better odds of being close to the next ball launch."
I've only really played the beta test version of the game so far but...
Point (1) does sound about right and similar to Deadzone although I guess good practice can make things go a bit quicker. - For example, putting the lids back on once you're done with the game so they're there ready for next time.
Point (2), you've got it nailed down pretty much exactly. It's usually the main point I make when talking to a Blood Bowl fan. Blood Bowl is a strategic game, you do the exact same predefined strategy (Dwarf cage etc), turn after turn and it's all about whether your chosen Strategy defeats your opponents strategy.
Dreadball, and dreadball Xtreme is all about the tactics as opposed to the strategy. You might have a vague plan depending on the opponents (kill the human strikers, for example), but it's all about adapting to the current situation and trying to maximise your odds of, whatever the game and opponent decides to throw at you, to put you in the best situation.
There's a second set of tokens in the box itself. I'm guessing the ones outside the box are incase any of the tokens there went missing. - As you can see, they fell out very easily.
The main box comes with an internal tray to help ensure that you're read to play. - It comes with 2 slots for your cards, plus a team tray and extra space at the back for the scenery.
Here are the 2 card types, Sabotage (I think this used to be called Dirty Tricks in the beta?) and Special Move cards. Unfortunately, Mantic have chosen a really very odd size for the cards that done fit the Fantasy Flight games 'mini american card game' sleeves. To be honest, this is really quite disappointing for me. Darn it, Mantic!
Shiny shiny new bases, 12 of each colour and some new dice as well. Helpfully, the base colours seem to match the colours on the mat. This is far better than me trying to use the GW glazes to colour my own bases.
We have the minis now. There's 2 identical bags, containing both Kalyishi and Convicts. - There's even 2 prone models for each team in each bag.
I'm guessing the retail set will just come with 8 models, plus the prones for each side. What is neat is the Grogan comes with alternative head/arms. 2 balls in the bag as well. - One thing I can't remember is if you might need 3 balls as well.
I suppose that's good for us in the Kickstarter, as we have 4 balls with the second bag. I've got to say, the Convicts really do look ace.
Here is a close up of the Kalyshi models. One thing I'm a little worried about when it comes to painting them, especially after undercoating them, is that the faces of the most lightly armoured type models may end up being very shallow. - I'll need to be very careful when undercoating these...
Unfortunately, Mantic didn't manage to make even this small dropoff be error free. - One of the Guard type models has had a missing arm. Yet another trip to the missing parts form for me, I'm afraid. It's good that the minis all come preassembled at least.
The 2 sets of scenery gives you plenty of crates and 4 scoring zones. - I'm guessing these will need to come in the retail box as well
They seem nicely detailed and I'm thinking these are proper 'hard' plastic as opposed to board game plastic. Though I don't think you need to glue any, and they just push fit together without glue. - Great for the boardgame-ey nature of the set.
Here are the closeup of the crate lids. - They even have the numbers sculpted on. If I remember right, that's the number of attack dice you roll.
And finally, here is the unboxed 'Free Agents' set. There's lots of weird, random aliens here, from Tree monsters to squid-spiders and the mighty Blaine. The detail on these really are great, even with the Zees and I can see people having a great time trying out all sorts of crazy colour schemes with the free agents.
And that's the Dreadball Xtreme Kickstarter Wave 1 unboxed!
edit: sorry, all of this is off topic so I'll just leave it at I value the DF models much higher than Mantic's. To each his/her own.
I love the Dreamforge plastics but I do not own any (any longer). I do not like the aesthetic in the least bit.
Which is why I do not own any Wargames Factory greatcoats.
The Enforcer design is far superior to the Eisenkern design. Hands down. Mailfaux plastics also look great but I own zero because I have no desire to own them or use them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Krinsath wrote: Yes, Dreamforge is awesome and if Mantic could get even close to what Mark puts into his stuff they'd print money. On the other hand, Mantic's release list for 2014 versus Dreamforge's list of releases is worth comparing too. Sure, awesome kits are great but there's something to be said for "good enough right now" too.
Well, did Dreamforge actually release anything in 2014?
agnosto wrote: On the kits themselves (dang I need to stop straying off-topic); I guess I'm just disappointed yet again by Mantic.
...
wargamers and modelers have different expectations and they should realize that.
Waiting and ready to buy your Peacekeepers!
A monopose kit would have done the exact same with those arms, except it would have been not multipose. They'd be unformed on the side that plugged into the chest. See: all monopose plastics in existence.
The Peacekeepers sprue gives you the option of either a monopose-shooting-rifle-pose or multipose dancing-a-jig poses. It is superior for me.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote: I dont know what you guys ae complaining about those peacekeepers...
Each sprue comes with bits for 5 guys, including 5 with combat shields, or 5 without. You have 2 "big guns" and 4 "1 arm rifles", in the sprue, and lastly, 2 options for "2 arms rifle", booth simplified for easy assembly...
It is not a GW or Dream Forge level of variety, but the price is also a fraction of those ones...
$31.50 for 20, highly detailed miniatures and enough extra bits to choke on. Interestingly enough, not a single melted weapon arm. Mantic should probably hire Mark to design their sprues for them.
The problem with the enforcers is that as a board game, the melted arm thing isn't an issue but if they're going to try and push this kind of lazy, cheap crap off on modelers and wargamers for an eventual Warpath release, people who are spoiled for choice already, they should have thought it through a bit more carefully.
I Agree with you here, i wished i had backed dream forge KS, instead of DZ (i must assume). My love is on Forge Fathers, and Mantic is only doying bad things with them since i give them money (the general size of the minis made me feel cheated, even the Iron Ancestor is so tiny you need to raise the base for him to stand like a dreadnought), and Forge Guard will eventually size up as regular marines, not the terminator sized things i was hoping for. What i to expect next? A wartank supposed to be a Land Raider but rhino sized?
Actually, i am very disapointed with DZ stuff, and seriosly considering sell my stuff for "KS price"...
It sucks that you ended up disappointed, but you wanted your dwarfs to be the same size as space marines and are put out that they're short? That Dwarfs are short. The Iron Ancestors are a bit smaller than dreadnoughts but whoever said they were supposed to be the same size? Smaller dude inside, different set up. I like my trio. Kind of wish I got one from the KS for the different parts but meh oh well.
The Iron Ancestors are my favourite Mantic model by far, I really, really like them. So far I have painted 2, and I know I have at least one more in my RLP pile... perhaps 2, I cant remember!
, but if I had to pick the smaller scale would be more to my interest.
