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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/defiancegames/28mm-power-armor-hardsuits-defiance-games?ref=recently_launched  28mm-scale UAMC Hardsuit Power Armor Figures The Hardsuit project is one that has generated a huge amount of interest from the wargames community and we are taking to Kickstarter to make sure we do it RIGHT! We know that these are our most anticipated figure set and we want to make sure we are ready for the surge of interest. This Kickstarter will help us gauge that interest with enough lead time to have everything perfect for our early 2014 launch. The sculpture is nearly 100% complete with a few tweaks to come for manufacturing purposes. In an ideal scenario our actual lead time to produce the figures - from 3D print through to production molds and boxed release - is about a month. We've added three additional months of cushion to guarantee that these are absolutely perfect and that we can meet the demand. Each box set of the UAMC Hardsuits will contain 8 figures (two 4 figure squads) with multiple weapons options. Our Hardsuits will be made with spin plastic. MSRP $29.95   Prototype Hardsuit w/ Grenade Launcher (not actual size) Painting by Max Martelli Well there it is, figures I really wanted, but a company that's had loads of problems delivering stuff both in terms of time and quality up to now ( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/400806.page), but has started to improve recently ( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1500/400806.page) not sure I'm brave enough to take the plunge (especially as I want to spend lots on the upcoming Darklands 2 KS) but I thought the Dakka public might want to know
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Post by: scarletsquig
Estimated Delivery: Feb 2014. 
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Post by: skrulnik
The render looks good. The prototype looks like it is carved out of wood or cast in dental plaster, like Hirst molds stuff.
I am not touching this KS.
If they finally hit the shelves, that would be cool.
But I will leave it to others to take that risk.
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Post by: Ouze
 skrulnik wrote:The render looks good. The prototype looks like it is carved out of wood or cast in dental plaster, like Hirst molds stuff.
I would have said shapeways myself.
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Post by: lasgunpacker
"spin plastic" means their Trollcast varient? Yeah, not as interested in that as good old fashioned styrene.
Seems like if someone is going to the trouble of creating a kickstarter (and giving kickstarter part of the money), then make the campaign a real goal, for hard styrene plastic molds, not for pocket change.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Styrene (or "good") plastic would have been ideal. At least this KS didn't just say "plastic" and leave the actual material to be an unpleasant surprise down the road. Also, did anyone else notice that the plastic UAMC Marines kit was not listed as one of the currently available kits? What's up with that?
Anyway, I think I'm in. $25 is pretty fair for the amount of entertainment this will provide, and I let all of you guys carry the tab for the Raging Heroes KS, so yeah...fair. If I ever get a box of hardsuits out of it, even better. They can guard the AoW dwarf standard bearer.
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Post by: Theophony
 Ouze wrote: skrulnik wrote:The render looks good. The prototype looks like it is carved out of wood or cast in dental plaster, like Hirst molds stuff.
I would have said shapeways myself.
In the q&a section someone asks about the height of the suit, and they say they are not certain as their prototype "test print" is still being tweaked. So I guess ou are right on target.
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Post by: Guildsman
This is a joke, right? They're actually launching a kickstarter?
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Post by: agnosto
This...will not....end well...
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Post by: Krinsath
It could end well, you never know! The design certainly looks more promising than most of their efforts.
I'm not willing to put money into the idea that it will end well, but I can entertain the idea of a reality where this marks the beginning of their journey into some semblance of a normal release schedule.
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Post by: insaniak
The design is cool, but the prototype really doesn't do a good job of selling it.
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Post by: agnosto
Based upon this particular company's modus operandi, their release date will actually be a year or two after the estimate they are providing; I wouldn't hold my breath that anything will come of this...
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Post by: BairdEC
That looks really similar to the designs in 6-Commando
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Post by: Theophony
The only way this could have been better is if it was an indigogo campaign the suits look great in design, but I can't wait to see his excuses a year from now.
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Post by: AlexHolker
Defiance Games wrote:We're... very aware of our limitations.
I think it would be more accurate to say they have delusions of mediocrity. Even if this was a Kickstarter for the XX Marines that we've been promised for longer than Defiance Games has exited, I still wouldn't pay for them until they'd been produced, shipped, and reviewed by a trustworthy third party.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
What the heck. I'm in for three boxes. They might make enough to produce the German mech. Who knows, the hard suits might look good with my THI suits from Sedition Wars.
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Post by: Necros
Gonna have to miss this one too, but good luck 
looks like they'll be funded quick.
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Post by: Dr Mathias
It's a shame that Defiance is still putting their faith in 'spincast plastic'. I'd have loved these in styrene. I think done right this concept would have made them good money.
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Post by: Absolutionis
That paint job is far too "chalky" to be advertising a model. I guess they don't have the actual plastic models yet, but that photo turns me off significantly.
They should file down the model to something acceptable. Perhaps even prime and wash it.
Additionally, a scale photo would be nice too. Place it next to existing models or a ruler.
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Post by: Splod
Seriously though... I'd love to get my hands on a few. But after the charlie foxtrot that was their Marines... And their bugs... And their Panzergrenadiers...
There isn't a bargepole long enough.
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Post by: judgedoug
Screw it, in for $25. Even if they suck, I can use the bits.
57811
Post by: Jehan-reznor
They look heavily "inspired" by Maschienen Krieger
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Post by: RiTides
skrulnik wrote:The render looks good. The prototype looks like it is carved out of wood or cast in dental plaster, like Hirst molds stuff.
I am not touching this KS.
If they finally hit the shelves, that would be cool.
But I will leave it to others to take that risk.
Agreed, ugh @ that prototype...
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Post by: noneoftheabove0
To all the haters: You can't say that just because literally every single other project they've done has been a disaster, this one is certain to fail. You can only say that the odds of them producing this model on time and correctly is so slim as to be insignificant and unreasonable to consider.
To all the supporters: You should never go to Vegas.
TL;DR Don't you dare judge this book by its contents.
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Post by: Barzam
I'm on the fence about this one. $25 is around retail, so I really wouldn't be losing all that much on it. I've loved that design since they showed it off and would love to have some. Seeing that they're still trying to push the Spincast garbage of theirs is a major turn off though. I never thought their marines looked all that bad though. The Germans were an amazing cluster feth, but the Chinese seem to have been a considerable improvement. Hell, the fact that they actually acknowledged that the Germans had issues at all was an amazing improvement on the company's part. I will say this though, the suit isn't over detailed like the Germans were, so I don't think we run nearly as high of a chance of getting the smudged, muddy details the Germans had and the parts look to be chunky enough that misalignments will be easier to fix.
Plus, I noticed that they actually intend to do the German mech in proper HARD PLASTIC! I'd be down for it in that case, assuming they can pull it off.
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Post by: HisDivineShadow
The concept looks fantastic, wish they'd translate some of that detail into the sculpt
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Post by: GalaxyGames
No.
Highly advise people away from this KS.. thats due to their track record. Thats just me though.
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Post by: warboss
The only way this campaign could be more fraught with danger would be if they teamed up with Felix of AOW in order to ensure on time delivery. I wish them well but, despite my interest in that design around 2 years ago, I'll have to see it in person or close ups of off the shelf models before I put any money down on them due to the rather variable casting quality of previous offerings.
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Post by: Splod
 warboss wrote:The only way this campaign could be more fraught with danger would be if they teamed up with Felix of AOW in order to ensure on time delivery.
Or our friend from Mierce and Maelstrom.
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Post by: Lockark
 Splod wrote: warboss wrote:The only way this campaign could be more fraught with danger would be if they teamed up with Felix of AOW in order to ensure on time delivery.
Or our friend from Mierce and Maelstrom.
Ice cold guys. Ice cold.
XD
Not necessarily disagreeing thow...
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Post by: warboss
Splod wrote: warboss wrote:The only way this campaign could be more fraught with danger would be if they teamed up with Felix of AOW in order to ensure on time delivery.
Or our friend from Mierce and Maelstrom.
I was more referring to the lateness of products being released. What you're describing is a whole other category of danger.
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Post by: carlos13th
I love the concept and the look of the hard suits but I don't trust the company to deliver.
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Post by: Denilsta
Splod wrote: warboss wrote:The only way this campaign could be more fraught with danger would be if they teamed up with Felix of AOW in order to ensure on time delivery.
Or our friend from Mierce and Maelstrom.
I completely disagree with the Mierce comment, I put about £1500 into their KS and they have produced simply stunning quality miniatures. Mierce have also delivered some of their KS pledges upto 4 months early and the communication and customer service is some of the best I have seen in 28 years in this hobby....and yes I did get caught up in the Maelstrom issues, but things/ can change.
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Post by: HisDivineShadow
I still don't understand how such a good render ends up such a bad print.
And their 'house pro painter' doesn't impress me
. I pledged for one. Can always back out.
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Post by: Barzam
 carlos13th wrote:I love the concept and the look of the hard suits but I don't trust the company to deliver.
Oh, they're deliver it. They haven't not delivered any of the stuff they've put into production. It's just a case of when you'll get it. That being said though, as I recall, their Chinese Militia was released fairly close to when they said they'd release it.
Slightly off topic and because the old thread is pretty damn old now, has anyone purchased the Aleutian Worms? I've never seen any photos of them besides the ones on their site. I'm rather curious how they turned out since they don't have so much surface detail, appear to be rather large, and don't have that many pieces.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
This is such a shamefully negative way to start a thread, guys.
I'd have loved me some hardsuits a few years back. But if it's 25$ for a box... I might as well just pay the extra 5$ shipping in February (of whichever year) when they actually have the product.
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Post by: judgedoug
Splod wrote: warboss wrote:The only way this campaign could be more fraught with danger would be if they teamed up with Felix of AOW in order to ensure on time delivery.
Or our friend from Mierce and Maelstrom.
Now I'm confused. The $600 or so I put into Mierce's kickstarter has been rewarded with the finest miniatures on the planet, delivered on time (or in some cases, months ahead of schedule).
Unless you're saying Defiance is like Mierce in that they did a complete 180 and are now trustworthy and produce amazingly detailed and affordable product?
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Post by: RiTides
Okay guys, it was one throwaway comment about Mierce that has dragged us all OT. Let's drop it- they have indeed excelled at their kickstarter fulfillment, despite past business errors. That's not what this thread is about and the point has been made... let's move on.
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Post by: CptJake
 Barzam wrote: carlos13th wrote:I love the concept and the look of the hard suits but I don't trust the company to deliver.
Oh, they're deliver it. They haven't not delivered any of the stuff they've put into production. It's just a case of when you'll get it.
Have they sent out the jeep things to folks who pre-ordered them yet?
Just curious.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Yeah... no way am I giving these guys any money in advance.
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Post by: CptJake
Kickstarter makes it perfect for Defiance. All the risk is assumed by the backers, who end up with little to no path of recourse should Defiance fail to deliver on the project.
Not that it could happen that way....
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Post by: winnertakesall
NEWS JUST IN FROM THEIR FACEBOOK:
ATTN: Defiance Games is under new management
Defiance Games is under new leadership. Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately. The new team at DFG consists of Max Martelli as Art Director, Darred Surin as Office Manager and Mark Loud as Production Manager.
Our top priority is to provide our customers with quality products at the best price possible. Our first focus will be on reliable service and good communication with our customers.
We encourage you to join us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter as well as joining our open forum at defiancegames.com. Each of us will be present and open to your comments and feedback in all of these outlets and we are looking forward to giving you all nothing short of our best.
Our recent foray into Kickstarter is our way of starting fresh with a product we know you all want. We understand everyone's hesitations but assure you that we will be working night and day to make this a home run for all of you.
- Gary Pelletier
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
The artwork is fantastic, the render is amazing, but the test piece just looks terrible. I don't know if it is the sculpting, the material, the painting, or a combination of all of the above. It looks unbalanced - you have the fantastic detailing on the legs and left arm, while the torso and weapon just look bland.
It's a shame because they could have been nice count-as Ogryns for Guard players.
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Post by: judgedoug
Tony's gone? Well my confidence in the company just quadrupled, just like with WGF when Tony "left" there.
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Post by: warboss
I wish them (and most importantly their customers) well but that message reminds me of a video game kickstarter that tried to distance itself mid-crowdfunding from its controversial founder. IIRC they tried it twice and it didn't work. The funding goals for this are obviously significantly lower though.
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Post by: rosafari
Goal exceeded and 61 backers already! Plus they can double their money selling the backer details to Nigerian 419ers
Highly suspect reshuffle too... and I love how everyone is either a director or a manager
78634
Post by: Max Martelli
Hey Everyone,
My name is Max Martelli, I am the new Art Director at Defiance Games and wanted to pass along an announcement from our new CEO Gary Pelletier. The announcement is as follows.
"ATTN: Defiance Games is under new management
Defiance Games is under new leadership. Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately. The new team at DFG consists of Max Martelli as Art Director, Darred Surin as Office Manager and Mark Loud as Production Manager.
Our top priority is to provide our customers with quality products at the best price possible. Our first focus will be on reliable service and good communication with our customers.
We encourage you to join us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter as well as joining our open forum at defiancegames.com. Each of us will be present and open to your comments and feedback in all of these outlets and we are looking forward to giving you all nothing short of our best.
Our recent foray into Kickstarter is our way of starting fresh with a product we know you all want. We understand everyone's hesitations but assure you that we will be working night and day to make this a home run for all of you.
- Gary Pelletier"
We understand everyone's reservations with this Kickstarter and the projected delivery date as well as any reservations you have with our current plastic. The new DFG team has been working long and hard these past couple of months to hammer out all of the faults in our production method which were evident in the release schedules and the quality of our previous sets. We would like to make this Kickstarter a way to build up the trust of anyone who may have lost it with our company in the past.
Thanks
-Max Martelli
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Post by: CptJake
Max, Welcome.
Hope your motto is something along the lines of Facta non Verba.
1478
Post by: warboss
 Max Martelli wrote:Hey Everyone,
My name is Max Martelli, I am the new Art Director at Defiance Games and wanted to pass along an announcement from our new CEO Gary Pelletier. The announcement is as follows.
"ATTN: Defiance Games is under new management
Defiance Games is under new leadership. Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately. The new team at DFG consists of Max Martelli as Art Director, Darred Surin as Office Manager and Mark Loud as Production Manager.
Our top priority is to provide our customers with quality products at the best price possible. Our first focus will be on reliable service and good communication with our customers.
We encourage you to join us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter as well as joining our open forum at defiancegames.com. Each of us will be present and open to your comments and feedback in all of these outlets and we are looking forward to giving you all nothing short of our best.
Our recent foray into Kickstarter is our way of starting fresh with a product we know you all want. We understand everyone's hesitations but assure you that we will be working night and day to make this a home run for all of you.
- Gary Pelletier"
We understand everyone's reservations with this Kickstarter and the projected delivery date as well as any reservations you have with our current plastic. The new DFG team has been working long and hard these past couple of months to hammer out all of the faults in our production method which were evident in the release schedules and the quality of our previous sets. We would like to make this Kickstarter a way to build up the trust of anyone who may have lost it with our company in the past.
Thanks
-Max Martelli
Welcome! I know it may not feel like it from the tone but people (including myself) do want to see these minis hit the shelves. I'm a bit surprised to see the announcement of this type of leadership shuffle only after the start of the Kickstarter as it feels like a response to criticism (don't know the timing of the actual change). Is Tony not involved in any way in directly running the company now? Is he "only" a silent owner now?
9394
Post by: Malika2
What is the problem with the spincast plastic?
51394
Post by: judgedoug
I like the spuncast plastic used for Red Box Games. As sharp as resin and way easier to work with than metal.
59176
Post by: Mathieu Raymond
It tends not to be minis that are as poseable as HIPS, superglue is required. The composition can vary greatly, from too hard, too brittle, too soft. The bubbles some of the chinese have shown are problematic, to say the least.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the material myself, as long as they are well cast. What would get me to pledge? Shots of the correct sizing test cast. If it is reasonably free of flaws.
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Post by: Breotan
 judgedoug wrote:I like the spuncast plastic used for Red Box Games. As sharp as resin...
These won't be. Even without seeing them, I can promise you that much at least.
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
I don't get all these people complaining about the prototype. It's a 3D print. 3D printers are still in their infant years and won't make anything that looks as good as hard plastic or resin for half a decade, if not more. There are higher quality 3D prints available, but they're very expensive for a prototype. This is what 3D printing looks like, folks.
I see the initial goal is already met, so good for them. Defiance have a new CEO so maybe that'll turn things around, but they've pretty much done dick all as far as actually producing kits or meeting the goals they've set til now. This just seems desperate.
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Post by: RiTides
No, it's what Cheap 3D printing looks like, as you say in your own post!
275
Post by: Taarnak
 Brother SRM wrote:I don't get all these people complaining about the prototype. It's a 3D print. 3D printers are still in their infant years and won't make anything that looks as good as hard plastic or resin for half a decade, if not more. There are higher quality 3D prints available, but they're very expensive for a prototype. This is what 3D printing looks like, folks.
I see the initial goal is already met, so good for them. Defiance have a new CEO so maybe that'll turn things around, but they've pretty much done dick all as far as actually producing kits or meeting the goals they've set til now. This just seems desperate.
Much higher quality 3D printing is readily available. There are printers that make prints that look as good, if not better than any "hard plastic" kits on the market. More expensive, yes, but easily there.
And I'm complaining about the prototype because it seems to be a general reflection of the company to date: rushed and shoddy. If they wanted to promote the figures well (especially for a KS where the cost could be easily absorbed) they should have stumped up for the higher quality print and a professional paint job.
To the new CEO: Where is Tony now? What is his continued involvement. Until you answer those questions, you will not have a shred of credibility in my eyes. Also, a little bit of advice: Don't skimp on getting figures done by high calibre artists. The Chinese figures that were recently released are mediocre, at best. Look to Mierce as an example of how one can pay more for higher quality which brings more customers.
Back to lurking...
~Eric
375
Post by: chris_valera
Max Martelli wrote:Hey Everyone,
My name is Max Martelli, I am the new Art Director at Defiance Games and wanted to pass along an announcement from our new CEO Gary Pelletier. The announcement is as follows.
"ATTN: Defiance Games is under new management
Defiance Games is under new leadership. Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately. The new team at DFG consists of Max Martelli as Art Director, Darred Surin as Office Manager and Mark Loud as Production Manager.
Our top priority is to provide our customers with quality products at the best price possible. Our first focus will be on reliable service and good communication with our customers.
We encourage you to join us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter as well as joining our open forum at defiancegames.com. Each of us will be present and open to your comments and feedback in all of these outlets and we are looking forward to giving you all nothing short of our best.
Our recent foray into Kickstarter is our way of starting fresh with a product we know you all want. We understand everyone's hesitations but assure you that we will be working night and day to make this a home run for all of you.
- Gary Pelletier"
We understand everyone's reservations with this Kickstarter and the projected delivery date as well as any reservations you have with our current plastic. The new DFG team has been working long and hard these past couple of months to hammer out all of the faults in our production method which were evident in the release schedules and the quality of our previous sets. We would like to make this Kickstarter a way to build up the trust of anyone who may have lost it with our company in the past.
Thanks
-Max Martelli
Any chance I could get unbanned from commenting on the Defiance games facebook?
Also, like others, I'm interested to know what happened to Tony.
--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com
20085
Post by: NoseGoblin
Max Martelli wrote:Hey Everyone,
My name is Max Martelli, I am the new Art Director at Defiance Games and wanted to pass along an announcement from our new CEO Gary Pelletier. The announcement is as follows.
"ATTN: Defiance Games is under new management
Defiance Games is under new leadership. Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately. The new team at DFG consists of Max Martelli as Art Director, Darred Surin as Office Manager and Mark Loud as Production Manager.
Our top priority is to provide our customers with quality products at the best price possible. Our first focus will be on reliable service and good communication with our customers.
We encourage you to join us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter as well as joining our open forum at defiancegames.com. Each of us will be present and open to your comments and feedback in all of these outlets and we are looking forward to giving you all nothing short of our best.
Our recent foray into Kickstarter is our way of starting fresh with a product we know you all want. We understand everyone's hesitations but assure you that we will be working night and day to make this a home run for all of you.
- Gary Pelletier"
We understand everyone's reservations with this Kickstarter and the projected delivery date as well as any reservations you have with our current plastic. The new DFG team has been working long and hard these past couple of months to hammer out all of the faults in our production method which were evident in the release schedules and the quality of our previous sets. We would like to make this Kickstarter a way to build up the trust of anyone who may have lost it with our company in the past.
Thanks
-Max Martelli
Sent you a PM....
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
 Mathieu Raymond wrote:It tends not to be minis that are as poseable as HIPS, superglue is required. The composition can vary greatly, from too hard, too brittle, too soft. The bubbles some of the chinese have shown are problematic, to say the least.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the material myself, as long as they are well cast. What would get me to pledge? Shots of the correct sizing test cast. If it is reasonably free of flaws.
I would need some shots in order to pledge for this KS as well, but I don't think any mini company would produce the kind I need.
seriously though, best of luck guys. The various delays of the past have made me really hesitant to order anything new from you (heck, I still haven't got my Gunny figure) but I'd still like to see you turn it around. The idea for the setting they had was a cool concept and I really wanted to see it succeed.
99
Post by: insaniak
Brother SRM wrote:I don't get all these people complaining about the prototype. It's a 3D print. 3D printers are still in their infant years and won't make anything that looks as good as hard plastic or resin for half a decade, if not more. There are higher quality 3D prints available, but they're very expensive for a prototype. This is what 3D printing looks like, folks.
No, this is what bad 3D printing looks like. Look at any Raging Heroes pre-release to see what 3D printing can look like.
The fact is, the prototype is currently all that we have to go on as to the final quality of the actual miniature. And if they're creating a master from a 3D print, and that's the best quality print they can do, that doesn't bode well for the final product...
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Post by: Malika2
Is that model printed FUD?
68139
Post by: Barzam
 insaniak wrote: Brother SRM wrote:I don't get all these people complaining about the prototype. It's a 3D print. 3D printers are still in their infant years and won't make anything that looks as good as hard plastic or resin for half a decade, if not more. There are higher quality 3D prints available, but they're very expensive for a prototype. This is what 3D printing looks like, folks.
No, this is what bad 3D printing looks like. Look at any Raging Heroes pre-release to see what 3D printing can look like.
The fact is, the prototype is currently all that we have to go on as to the final quality of the actual miniature. And if they're creating a master from a 3D print, and that's the best quality print they can do, that doesn't bode well for the final product...
Did you stop to think that this might not be the only print they had done? It's very likely that they did do a higher quality one, but they're using it to make the castings. You wouldn't want to paint up the one that you're casting from. That would be stupid. They probably had this cheaper one done as a mock up with the paintjob as a test to see how it'll look once painted. The toy industry does this all the time too, doing hand painted test samples and rough mock-ups to show the concept off.
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Post by: Shepherd23
Please tell me where to get better 3d printing done. I haven't found anyone who can print better and I have tried 6 different places! Everyone seems to have the same issues no matter the medium.
666
Post by: Necros
PM Sent
12313
Post by: Ouze
I bet you did, buddy. I did a doubletake when they referred to themselves as DFG myself. 
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Post by: Malika2
Shepherd23 wrote:Please tell me where to get better 3d printing done. I haven't found anyone who can print better and I have tried 6 different places! Everyone seems to have the same issues no matter the medium.
I'm curious about this as well. How is FUD by Shapeways for example? I also heard the guys behind Age of Tyrants work with a company who can print in the microns accurate!
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Post by: Makaleth
Ouze wrote:
I bet you did, buddy. I did a doubletake when they referred to themselves as DFG myself.
Yup, this exactly. Defiance Games not really a DFG... maybe DEF-G
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Post by: RiTides
Barzam wrote: insaniak wrote: Brother SRM wrote:I don't get all these people complaining about the prototype. It's a 3D print. 3D printers are still in their infant years and won't make anything that looks as good as hard plastic or resin for half a decade, if not more. There are higher quality 3D prints available, but they're very expensive for a prototype. This is what 3D printing looks like, folks.
No, this is what bad 3D printing looks like. Look at any Raging Heroes pre-release to see what 3D printing can look like.
The fact is, the prototype is currently all that we have to go on as to the final quality of the actual miniature. And if they're creating a master from a 3D print, and that's the best quality print they can do, that doesn't bode well for the final product...
Did you stop to think that this might not be the only print they had done? It's very likely that they did do a higher quality one, but they're using it to make the castings. You wouldn't want to paint up the one that you're casting from. That would be stupid. They probably had this cheaper one done as a mock up with the paintjob as a test to see how it'll look once painted. The toy industry does this all the time too, doing hand painted test samples and rough mock-ups to show the concept off.
If they do have a better unpainted 3D print, then they should show that one instead! Raging Heroes shows their master 3D Prints unpainted all the time and they look amazing! I think it's entirely possible that my Form 1 3D Printer could do a better job than the print pictured in the OP.
Here's just one example of a company that can do Much better than what was shown here: http://www.moddler.com/portfolio
The real issue with the 3D print pictured in the OP is the finish. Copying the image from the OP for reference:
You have to have a higher quality offering than that to get my money via a kickstarter these days... I don't know the exact cost of what moddler would charge to make a better print of this, but if they're not willing to invest that smaller amount upfront, it doesn't make me want to invest either. This is not mold tooling we're talking about, it's a single representative 3D print.
You guys are seriously underestimating the technology that is available, and even fairly affordable, for 3d printing now! Sorry for the mini-rant... but 3D printing is something I'm fairly passionate about
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Post by: warboss
 Malika2 wrote:Shepherd23 wrote:Please tell me where to get better 3d printing done. I haven't found anyone who can print better and I have tried 6 different places! Everyone seems to have the same issues no matter the medium.
I'm curious about this as well. How is FUD by Shapeways for example? I also heard the guys behind Age of Tyrants work with a company who can print in the microns accurate!
I'd put the detail at slightly worse than the old WOTC prepainted minis if you get a perfect print (at least as of about a year ago with FUD when I last used it). You have no way of controlling the orientation they place your design in the "pot" so to speak as they print multiple designs in one run. You'd think that they'd put the parts facing down, you know, facing down but they don't and if your most detailed surface is in the wrong direction you end up with half your model with a gritty surface texture similar to a bad primer job that is impossible to get off.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Shepherd23 wrote:Please tell me where to get better 3d printing done. I haven't found anyone who can print better and I have tried 6 different places! Everyone seems to have the same issues no matter the medium.
Assuming you're looking for a 3D print for a production mini
Have a read of what Andrew Rae of Statueque Miniatures writes about it, http://www.khorosho-productions.blogspot.co.uk/
he uses Timo Laumann who run a Envisiontec Perfactory machine which produces a superior print (not as cheap as many but really high quality), and I know quite a few of the boutique resin companies who work with 3D sculpts who go to places with the same machine
(but this sort of this is not going to be affordable for printing off a 3D file just to game with)
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
 RiTides wrote:
Sorry for the mini-rant... but 3D printing is something I'm fairly passionate about
Oh yes, you should see the thread in the DCM forum... on and on about it!
I kid, I kid. I'm just surprised by the relatively good results you got from your Form 1 after just a few days of playing with it. Is it a "sintering" process you have going on?
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Post by: NoseGoblin
 Makaleth wrote: Ouze wrote:
I bet you did, buddy. I did a doubletake when they referred to themselves as DFG myself.
Yup, this exactly. Defiance Games not really a DFG... maybe DEF-G
All worked out... no drama.
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Post by: insaniak
Barzam wrote:Did you stop to think that this might not be the only print they had done? It's very likely that they did do a higher quality one, but they're using it to make the castings. You wouldn't want to paint up the one that you're casting from. That would be stupid. .
No, I didn't stop to think about that. Because if they have a higher quality print, and chose to show photos of the lower quality one instead, that would be stupid. Unpainted pics of a high quality scan would have been infinitely better marketing than the grainy thing they showed here.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
^QFT. Although the community appreciates nicely painted examples, this was just too chalky to be taken seriously.
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Post by: noneoftheabove0
This may be an odd thing to note, but if you were doing a massive shift in leadership, in artists and virtually everything else, why would you keep the name Defiance Games, which has been virtually synonymous with boondoggle, rather than change the name to reflect a new business. I mean, I get wanting name recognition, but how far do you expect a name with so much negativity riding on it to get you? Everyone recognizes the name Brutus, but you probably don't want to name your son that. I should hope that a change in leadership creates a change in direction, and I hate to say, I am feeling something shockingly close to excitement.
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Post by: Barzam
Well, someone is willing to give Defiance another chance. They've already doubled their initial funding goal in two days. Not bad.
Still not sure if I really want to get suckered into this. Should I really take that chance?
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Post by: Malika2
warboss wrote: Malika2 wrote:Shepherd23 wrote:Please tell me where to get better 3d printing done. I haven't found anyone who can print better and I have tried 6 different places! Everyone seems to have the same issues no matter the medium.
I'm curious about this as well. How is FUD by Shapeways for example? I also heard the guys behind Age of Tyrants work with a company who can print in the microns accurate!
I'd put the detail at slightly worse than the old WOTC prepainted minis if you get a perfect print (at least as of about a year ago with FUD when I last used it). You have no way of controlling the orientation they place your design in the "pot" so to speak as they print multiple designs in one run. You'd think that they'd put the parts facing down, you know, facing down but they don't and if your most detailed surface is in the wrong direction you end up with half your model with a gritty surface texture similar to a bad primer job that is impossible to get off.
So what would you recommend that can both deliver the quality and still be at a reasonable price?
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Post by: CptJake
Barzam wrote:Well, someone is willing to give Defiance another chance. They've already doubled their initial funding goal in two days. Not bad.
Still not sure if I really want to get suckered into this. Should I really take that chance?
At $25 a set I would assume that retail price, even directly from Defiance, won't be too much worse (bug set currently list at about $30). From someplace like The Warstore I suspect you'll get them for the kickstarter $25 if/when they are actually in stock.
Even if you had to pay the full $30 to get them from Defiance if/when they were actually in stock you may be better off than letting Defiance hold your $25 indefinitely on the chance they will deliver a quality product (or ANY product).
Of course, at higher pledge levels the pricing gets better, but I still suspect discount retailers online will come close to meeting those prices.
Just my take.
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Post by: judgedoug
 CptJake wrote: Barzam wrote:Well, someone is willing to give Defiance another chance. They've already doubled their initial funding goal in two days. Not bad.
Still not sure if I really want to get suckered into this. Should I really take that chance?
At $25 a set I would assume that retail price, even directly from Defiance, won't be too much worse (bug set currently list at about $30). From someplace like The Warstore I suspect you'll get them for the kickstarter $25 if/when they are actually in stock.
Plus 6.95 for shipping.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'll gladly pay that "$6.95 Guaranteed to be in Stock When Ordered Tax" down the road!
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Post by: Gitkikka
Cue angry note from Tony, explaining how "they" stole his company from him.
New management or not, Defiance hasn't enough clout for me to even think about giving them money in advance.
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Post by: agnosto
 Alpharius wrote:I'll gladly pay that "$6.95 Guaranteed to be in Stock When Ordered Tax" down the road!
Versus their usual big banner, "In Stock!" before the mold is even made or the miniature finalized...
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
That's why when an online retailer lists them as "in stock", I'm more enclined to believe them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, I'm not sure I want to pay 25$ of shipping from the Warstore.
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Post by: judgedoug
Wouldn't it be great if Defiance pulled their crap together and in a year started churning out quality kits.
Then we'd know it was Tony phoenix magic. Start a company, grind it down, and then leave it in a state of disarray, only to have it rise from the ashes into something great.
Thanks for Wargames Factory, Tony!
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Post by: chris_valera
I'm not as negative as others, but I'll wait and see, with these hardsuit renders. If they can't be bothered to pony up the cash for a nice, well-done prototype, and can't be bothered pony up the cash to have it painted professionally, why should I buy it.
I wont pledge to the kickstarter, tehre's too much risk there.
Also, we still haven't found out what happened to Tony.
Regardless, I'd like to see these made, and I'd like to see Hudson's Bugs redone as a plastic sprue. If Kingdom Death can have plastic sprues made straight off of being a kickstarter, these guys have as good a chance as anyone.
Years from now, we'll look at this as being the halcyon days of wargaming, when anyone with a dream and a little bit of cash could get a kickstarter and make a kit.
--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com
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Post by: Alpharius
 agnosto wrote: Alpharius wrote:I'll gladly pay that "$6.95 Guaranteed to be in Stock When Ordered Tax" down the road!
Versus their usual big banner, "In Stock!" before the mold is even made or the miniature finalized...
..I meant 'in stock' from the Warstore, of course - sorry!
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Post by: legoburner
 chris_valera wrote:
Regardless, I'd like to see these made, and I'd like to see Hudson's Bugs redone as a plastic sprue. If Kingdom Death can have plastic sprues made straight off of being a kickstarter, these guys have as good a chance as anyone.
--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com
I've seen you mention KD having plastic sprues straight off being a kickstarter in a couple of places now - while that is somewhat true you are skipping over the fact that they raised over 2 million dollars and so had significant cash to throw around to meet their goal. That kind of money opens up a lot more options than the 4-5 figures we see from most wargaming kickstarters. Plastic is still very difficult to accomplish.
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Post by: agnosto
 Alpharius wrote: agnosto wrote: Alpharius wrote:I'll gladly pay that "$6.95 Guaranteed to be in Stock When Ordered Tax" down the road!
Versus their usual big banner, "In Stock!" before the mold is even made or the miniature finalized...
..I meant 'in stock' from the Warstore, of course - sorry!
Oh, no. I understood you; I should have been more clear that I was referring to DG.
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Post by: Barzam
German Panzer mecha goal has been met. I'm all for some of these since they're supposed to be hard plastic.
Defiance Games can always use PDC Gaming. They said they were open to casting for other companies.
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Post by: chris_valera
 legoburner wrote:I've seen you mention KD having plastic sprues straight off being a kickstarter in a couple of places now - while that is somewhat true
Some what true? It is true.
legoburner wrote:you are skipping over the fact that they raised over 2 million dollars and so had significant cash to throw around to meet their goal. That kind of money opens up a lot more options than the 4-5 figures we see from most wargaming kickstarters. Plastic is still very difficult to accomplish.
Alright, so they raised a ton of cash, allowing them to tool in plastic. Doesn't change the fact that Battletech is a veteran game, but still limping along with sculpts from the 80s. Infinity has a devoted fanbase as well.
If Infinity or Battletech came up with some strong concepts, had enough concept art and proof-of-concpet, and attracted enough backers, they could tool in plastic as well.
Defiance Games' repuatation works against it, in this regard. Not to many people will be eager to sign up for this merry-go-round again, and I doubt with their reputation they will attract enough backers. But if a few projects get completed on time, and on budget, or the concept is strong enough, they could tool in plastic as well.
As I said before, nothing is stopping them.
If people really went nuts over these hardsuits (they really are quite popular) and they raised enough cash, they could tool in plastic.
--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com
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Post by: RiTides
legoburner wrote: chris_valera wrote:
Regardless, I'd like to see these made, and I'd like to see Hudson's Bugs redone as a plastic sprue. If Kingdom Death can have plastic sprues made straight off of being a kickstarter, these guys have as good a chance as anyone.
--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com
I've seen you mention KD having plastic sprues straight off being a kickstarter in a couple of places now - while that is somewhat true you are skipping over the fact that they raised over 2 million dollars and so had significant cash to throw around to meet their goal. That kind of money opens up a lot more options than the 4-5 figures we see from most wargaming kickstarters. Plastic is still very difficult to accomplish.
Agreed! Plastic is still far off for most companies.
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Post by: warboss
People did go nuts for them... around 2010 or 2011 when they were first shown. Clearly that significant of a delay along with the subsequent "As the Mould Turns" soap opera drama has blunted interest somewhat.
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Post by: Shepherd23
The initial cost of tooling is a small fraction of the requirements to have plastic toys done. Just because someone gets 10's of thousands in a kickstarter doesn't mean that they can do plastic. You still have to contend with huge minimum initial orders and reorders. You need to pay for shipping from china (and the morality of producing in china if that's your thing), then you need to pay to warehouse all that stock until it sells.
After all this is considered, there is still that pesky little fact that plastic minis have limitations and some models aren't best produced in this medium. Maybe some companies stay with metal because they like the better detail. Plastic isn't always the answer.
Next, have you considered the economy of sales? If a company produces a set in plastic, they need to sell A LOT more of that plastic before they make a profit. Most companies in today's market won't sell that for years. So they need to pay even more to warehouse all that plastic. Resin and pewter are virtually a make to order with little warehousing needed. It is just more cost effective for most companies to NOT do plastic. There are very few exceptions to this.
Anyone who says that just because someone can afford to produce in plastic should do it is lacking all the facts.
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Post by: Barzam
Well, new stretch goals were added for additional left arm weapon options @$10k (which it's nearly met at this time) and a Heavy Weapon Hardsuit team at $12,500.
I'd say people are more than happy to try supporting them on this one. I've decided I will give them one more chance and I'll back at $65. I do want those German Mecha.
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Post by: Taarnak
Can someone see if you can get an answer on KS as to Tony's current involvement, please?
If they don't answer that question, you are all taking a larger risk than you would otherwise be...
~Eric
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Post by: privateherbert24
I'd never fund it, and as said that prototype scares me away. However, I did get a pack of their marines, and have found them very useful for guard bits and conversions, especially their armored legs. Plus they are fairly cheap models. Whatever happened to their Germans?
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Post by: warboss
If people want to fund it this early, so be it. I'm happy that they're helping bring that to the store shelf where I can evaluate it personally before buying.
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Post by: Shepherd23
 Taarnak wrote:Can someone see if you can get an answer on KS as to Tony's current involvement, please?
If they don't answer that question, you are all taking a larger risk than you would otherwise be...
~Eric
You could always just email them and ask them yourself. Their email is readily available and public knowledge. If you already have and recited no response, then ignore this message.
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Post by: Absolutionis
All you ever do is troll Defiance threads. There's a reason they banned you from their Facebook page.
Regardless of how many times you think they kicked your dog, if you hate the company that much, just ignore it.
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Post by: BrotherVord
The size looks to be about right for centurion proxies...I can see people converting the weapons from that set onto these things...I know that is love to see that
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Post by: Dr Mathias
I backed it. I like the look of the suits. I'd pay $4 each for them, from a vending machine and at the quality shown, without balking.
Tony stepping down from business decisions makes me feel about 500% more confident in this project. I'm not sure what his decision making role was, but his interactions with the gaming community sure made him seem like a loose cannon.
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Post by: shasolenzabi
In e-mails, Tony never struck as an intentionally bad guy, I feel he is getting a lot of heat for unlucky decisions and or seeing something new to try before working out some bugs in the production processes. I guess I got lucky or just timed my UAMC MArine purchase right as I had no delays or anything. I did note the delays in Bugs, other marine orders, and same with bugs and PZG orders.
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Post by: Bolognesus
At some point though, at the very least putting product for sale as "in stock" while any reasonable person in his place would have had to be aware that not only was that a lie, but no proven manner of production sufficient to ensure speedy delivery was in place either, qualifies as trading in bad faith.
And really, that's the least of my issues with his business dealings from a purely legal point of view.
A much lighter standard than that is to be applied in considering whether someone appears to be a 'reliable' (much higher qualification than "not in bad faith") trader, and he fails that miserably. Sorry, he is an intentionally bad guy. Not as his purpose in life, but he has to be sufficiently cognisant of his own incompetence for his actions to be considered "intentional" for all intents and purposes, IMO.
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Post by: CptJake
 shasolenzabi wrote:In e-mails, Tony never struck as an intentionally bad guy, I feel he is getting a lot of heat for unlucky decisions and or seeing something new to try before working out some bugs in the production processes. I guess I got lucky or just timed my UAMC MArine purchase right as I had no delays or anything. I did note the delays in Bugs, other marine orders, and same with bugs and PZG orders.
I wouldn't call repeated failure to meet stated time lines and quality levels 'unlucky'. I wouldn't call repeatedly accepting payment for preorders then failing to deliver 'unlucky'. I wouldn't call repeatedly stating or at least implying product was In Stock when in fact it was NOT in stock as 'unlucky'. I can think of several words to describe these, but 'unlucky' isn't one of them.
Then you can add in the 'blame everyone else and publically trash them' aspect of his existence.
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Post by: Bolognesus
Aww Jake, no you're just being entirely fair to him. You know he doesn't take well to that?
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Well, at any rate, they just passed their latest stretch goal 12.897$ dollars as of right now.
This has the potential of seriously going into delay territory at this point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldn't it be ironic if they had gotten rid of Tony completely and went back to Wargames Factory for plastic production?
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Post by: Forar
warboss wrote: People did go nuts for them... around 2010 or 2011 when they were first shown. Clearly that significant of a delay along with the subsequent "As the Mould Turns" soap opera drama has blunted interest somewhat.
As someone who wasn't around for those shenanigans, any chance there's a thread I might be able to read to bring myself up to speed. There's a lot of figurative knowing glances bouncing around, but not much in terms of detail as to what exactly everyone is so wary about. Edit: oh wow, 57 pages. This could take a while.
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Post by: Alpharius
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Well, at any rate, they just passed their latest stretch goal 12.897$ dollars as of right now.
This has the potential of seriously going into delay territory at this point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldn't it be ironic if they had gotten rid of Tony completely and went back to Wargames Factory for plastic production?
From a quality standpoint, that would be...great news!
Seriously!
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Post by: Barzam
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Well, at any rate, they just passed their latest stretch goal 12.897$ dollars as of right now.
This has the potential of seriously going into delay territory at this point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldn't it be ironic if they had gotten rid of Tony completely and went back to Wargames Factory for plastic production?
It'd be nice if it didn't go into delay territory seeing as it sounds like things are ready to go into production fairly soon. Let's hope they stick to their timetables.
And it'd be awesome if they went back to WGF for the plastic production!
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Post by: Dr Mathias
Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Wouldn't it be ironic if they had gotten rid of Tony completely and went back to Wargames Factory for plastic production?
Not only would it be ironic, the suits would be hard plastic and engineered well.
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Post by: Civik
As someone who ordered the original marines, the delays afterward were pretty damn terrible. I ordered through TWS and not direct because it's a helluva lot easier to trust them than a startup who after much delay produced their first plastics.
Waited a few months after pre-ordering and much shenannigans about orders going out, cancelled it. The plastic marines weren't bad and I've got 4 boxes of them(a buck a model wasn't bad!), but they seemed to completely fall apart on delivery and seemed to send whatever they could make to customers what felt like at random.
When even the die-hards started to doubt, the forums got shuttered. I think that's when I finally cancelled my bugs order. If you're willing to take a big risk with your money, I'd put vegas kinds of odds on seeing a return on it. Doesn't mean it won't happen, just that DefG has earned the skepticism people feel even if Tony is gone or at least away from decision making.
I wish them luck, but I wouldn't direct order from them.
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Post by: CptJake
 Civik wrote:
When even the die-hards started to doubt, the forums got shuttered. I think that's when I finally cancelled my bugs order. If you're willing to take a big risk with your money, I'd put vegas kinds of odds on seeing a return on it. Doesn't mean it won't happen, just that DefG has earned the skepticism people feel even if Tony is gone or at least away from PUBLIC decision making.
I wish them luck, but I wouldn't direct order from them.
We don't really know what his role is at this point. Just that his name is not being used.
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Post by: Sining
Considering there haven't been any angry rants on the web about how his company was stolen from him (yet again), I'd bet Tony is still in it somehow
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Which is nothing to inspire confidence, as noted above.
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
They've got a new stretch goal for female Marines.
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Post by: AlexHolker
Defiance Games wrote:STRETCH GOAL
$10,000
If we make over $10,000 with this project we will be releasing a Kickstarter exclusive LEFT ARM WEAPON OPTION for the UAMC HARDSUITS. This will include the equivalent of one box of Hardsuit arms.
Limited edition squad loadouts. Kickstarter exclusives sink to a new low.
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Post by: warboss
 AlexHolker wrote:Defiance Games wrote:STRETCH GOAL
$10,000
If we make over $10,000 with this project we will be releasing a Kickstarter exclusive LEFT ARM WEAPON OPTION for the UAMC HARDSUITS. This will include the equivalent of one box of Hardsuit arms.
Limited edition squad loadouts. Kickstarter exclusives sink to a new low.
I don't see how that is a big issue. Kickstarter exclusive models (or parts thereof) certainly isn't anything new. If anything, the lack of a popular official game to use them in would less any blow to non-backers down the line as they have no effect except visual. Even if there is a game to use these minis with, there is nothing stopping the company nor is it unfair if they release alternate versions of the KS exclusive weapons down the line.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Ooooh. Female marines. Yes, they're more expensive than the males, but if they are released in June/July, they might come before Dreamforge's Black Widows... I'm glad I didn't sell my squad of UAMC marines yet.
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Post by: warboss
It's odd that their marque pic is that chalky close up when this picture has apparently been floating around for at least a few months.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
I kind of hope their funding doesn't get much higher than the next stretch goal, so their obligations don't exceed their capabilities. Mantic's reputation has taken a hit from their sub-par KOW releases, and Defiance can't afford another big failure.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Those are some thunder-thighs. I like it.
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Post by: Xeno
warboss wrote:It's odd that their marque pic is that chalky close up when this picture has apparently been floating around for at least a few months.
Could just be a bad paint job. Too much paint, or low-quality paint, gives that chalky effect.
I'm guilty of both of these so I'm well aware of the effect
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Post by: Barzam
I don't know, but I kind of think that prototype right there might actually be the same one we saw painted.
Defiance put up a guide showing what rewards are included with each price tier. It looks like the $65 is going to be the sweet spot for this one.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
The wording for the backing tiers (since it is locked and can't be changed) leads to confusion, though.
Also, they haven't explained if they'll do wave shipping or wait until all of your rewards are completed before they ship?
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Post by: HisDivineShadow
That 'new' pic and the prototype shown cannot be the same thing. That one has detailing. They are either different, or that is literally the worst paint job I have ever seen. Especially from a 'house pro painter'
So that leads to only one logical conclusion. Why show a sub par early print prototype when they clearly have better already?
Do they want low expectations so that they can easily surpass them, in an attempt to repair image? I wouldn't be surprised now, if the things are 100% done and ready to go. So they can chill around, meet or beat their proposed deadline and delivery date and try to recoup face.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
At this point in time, I'd gladly welcome a Scotty from them.
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Post by: HisDivineShadow
I really toyed with using a Scotty metaphor in my post.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Mathieu Raymond wrote:The wording for the backing tiers (since it is locked and can't be changed) leads to confusion, though.
Also, they haven't explained if they'll do wave shipping or wait until all of your rewards are completed before they ship?
It all ships at the same time, when complete. Wave shipping is $10 extra.
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Post by: Shepherd23
 HisDivineShadow wrote:That 'new' pic and the prototype shown cannot be the same thing. That one has detailing. They are either different, or that is literally the worst paint job I have ever seen. Especially from a 'house pro painter'
So that leads to only one logical conclusion. Why show a sub par early print prototype when they clearly have better already?
Do they want low expectations so that they can easily surpass them, in an attempt to repair image? I wouldn't be surprised now, if the things are 100% done and ready to go. So they can chill around, meet or beat their proposed deadline and delivery date and try to recoup face.
I am betting that it is the paint job and not the "print". Maybe the "pro painter" is someone's brothers, sisters, cousins uncle and they had to use it in order to make the wife more tolerable? Or maybe someone needs new paint, or glasses.
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Post by: Azazelx
Barzam wrote:
Did you stop to think that this might not be the only print they had done? It's very likely that they did do a higher quality one, but they're using it to make the castings. You wouldn't want to paint up the one that you're casting from. That would be stupid. They probably had this cheaper one done as a mock up with the paintjob as a test to see how it'll look once painted. The toy industry does this all the time too, doing hand painted test samples and rough mock-ups to show the concept off.
Um. Get two of the HQ ones. Or three. Or six. They're asking for people's money upfront here, after all. A few hundred bucks for best-quality prints is a small investment, after all. Automatically Appended Next Post:  noneoftheabove0 wrote:This may be an odd thing to note, but if you were doing a massive shift in leadership, in artists and virtually everything else, why would you keep the name Defiance Games, which has been virtually synonymous with boondoggle, rather than change the name to reflect a new business. I mean, I get wanting name recognition, but how far do you expect a name with so much negativity riding on it to get you? Everyone recognizes the name Brutus, but you probably don't want to name your son that. I should hope that a change in leadership creates a change in direction, and I hate to say, I am feeling something shockingly close to excitement.
Judas Games?
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
^That's only if Tony has a say in the new company's name.
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Post by: mattl
Here in Boston, its actually easy enough to pick up Defiance models, so I'm backing this one for the hardsuits.
I wish them luck with the new company structure, I just wish the Kickstarter was more energetic.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
 mattl wrote:I wish them luck with the new company structure, I just wish the Kickstarter was more energetic.
It's probably for the best. A smallish, successful project will do a lot to repair their reputation. Compare Mantic's KoW Kickstarter, which resulted in a mixed-bag of minis (to put it generously), and turned off a lot of their backers.
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Post by: mattl
Yeah, I have a ton of stuff from the Mantic KoW Kickstarter (and Dreadball with LOKA & a LOT of Deadzone coming) -- some pretty bad hard plastic models, but generally their spincast stuff is good.
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Post by: lord marcus
 JoshInJapan wrote: mattl wrote:I wish them luck with the new company structure, I just wish the Kickstarter was more energetic.
It's probably for the best. A smallish, successful project will do a lot to repair their reputation. Compare Mantic's KoW Kickstarter, which resulted in a mixed-bag of minis (to put it generously), and turned off a lot of their backers.
Kings of war was their first kickstarter, and they have stated they were not completely prepared for the level of support they received.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
 lord marcus wrote: JoshInJapan wrote: mattl wrote:I wish them luck with the new company structure, I just wish the Kickstarter was more energetic.
It's probably for the best. A smallish, successful project will do a lot to repair their reputation. Compare Mantic's KoW Kickstarter, which resulted in a mixed-bag of minis (to put it generously), and turned off a lot of their backers.
Kings of war was their first kickstarter, and they have stated they were not completely prepared for the level of support they received.
I'm reminded of this fact every time I dig in the big box of random stuff I got for my pledge. If Defiance stays focused on the hard suits and walkers, they should be able to avoid the same fate.
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Post by: Ronin_eX
Honestly, I think the worst thing that can happen for a company new to KS is to have too much success. You end up over-promising on stretch goals, your cost and time estimates will be shot to  and you will likely be under the gun just to get the product out late and overbudget (and with the added time, shipping increases that weren't a factor when you drew up your plan can kill you). We already know that the more a KS makes, the more likely it will be late due to scope creep and the like. And newbies (to KS) make this worse by trying to set the world on fire with impressive stretch goals before realizing the work it will take.
SJG are industry vets, but their first KS hit this wall hard. They kept on stacking on stretches that increased the box size, they promised a plastic "garage" that ate up months of time trying to get a half-decent prototype back from the factory. Added size of the box meant they didn't have room to store it in their current facility, etc. and so on.
Had they simply met their goal and nothing more, it wouldn't have been as awesome, but we'd probably have it in October/November 2012 instead.
If this KS is slow, then that is probably a blessing to Defiance.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I'm excited that they are bringing back their plastic UAMC. I might have to nab a box of them in the pledge manager later.
There was a lot of criticism over that box when it was released, but I think it's held up very well and fits a niche that very few styrene kits can.
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Post by: Barzam
I'm glad to see the UAMC marines back too. Hopefully they haven't decided to spincast them as well. They're probably some of their best product.
I agree with the others, this is actually one of the few Kickstarters that shouldn't be a runaway success. I wonder if they realized that themselves and that's why they scheduled it to go live around the same time as Bones?
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
No, I think they just made that happen by having a realistic offering and not promising freebies up to your neck. Which is a smart way to go about it, honestly.
If my CC payment went through ok, I'm pledging for a single box. Not a huge commitment, and I can safely forget about them and be pleasantly surpised when they show up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh oh...
The pledge tier mentions free shipping to Canada, but KS asks me to pay extra for shipping. I emailed them...
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Post by: JoshInJapan
Less that 48 hours left, and the campaign looks to be set to end at a comfortably managable level. I would be perfectly happy with no more stretch goals if it means that they produce acceptable hard suit and mechs.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Yeah, but the fethed us real bad with a freebie, though! Straight from the Tony Reidy school of management, I would say.
They give every pledger a female NCO freebie. Which won't be ready until, what, august 2014? So even though the hardsuits are ready in February at the latest... you have to pay 10$ to get them before your "freebie" is ready.
I for one will say "no thanks!"
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Yeah, but the fethed us real bad with a freebie, though! Straight from the Tony Reidy school of management, I would say.
They give every pledger a female NCO freebie. Which won't be ready until, what, august 2014? So even though the hardsuits are ready in February at the latest... you have to pay 10$ to get them before your "freebie" is ready.
I for one will say "no thanks!"
It's funny that we all pretend those projected dates mean anything.
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Post by: plastictrees
"When the endless eye opens and the ancient ones stir in their crypts." would probably be less well received as a delivery date goal.
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Post by: AlexHolker
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Yeah, but the fethed us real bad with a freebie, though! Straight from the Tony Reidy school of management, I would say.
They give every pledger a female NCO freebie. Which won't be ready until, what, august 2014? So even though the hardsuits are ready in February at the latest... you have to pay 10$ to get them before your "freebie" is ready.
I for one will say "no thanks!"
If anyone's up for free female marines but doesn't want to wait an extra 4-6 months, maybe I could pay for the split.
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Post by: CptJake
 plastictrees wrote:"When the endless eye opens and the ancient ones stir in their crypts." would probably be less well received as a delivery date goal.
Perhaps, but with Defiance it may be more accurate.
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Post by: RiTides
Well done, plastictrees
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Post by: mattl
If they're smart, they'll have already padded those deadlines. I think Mantic said the same thing about Mars Attacks...
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Post by: Ouze
I think I'm going to back this even though I know, 100% with certainty, that this project is going to be an enormous source of drama, just like the Raging Heroes one.
I don't know why I do this, but eh.
Where do you guys think the sweet spot is if you want a little of everything, $90?
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Post by: warboss
JoshInJapan wrote:Less that 48 hours left, and the campaign looks to be set to end at a comfortably managable level. I would be perfectly happy with no more stretch goals if it means that they produce acceptable hard suit and mechs.
Coming out with just the SUV/armored car thing should have been manageable but apparently that ran into issues as well. Either way, I'm glad this is funded and I'll consider picking a box of battle eggs up once they hit the store shelves (but not sooner).
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Post by: adhuin
I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting: (2012 schedule)
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Post by: Eilif
warboss wrote: JoshInJapan wrote:Less that 48 hours left, and the campaign looks to be set to end at a comfortably managable level. I would be perfectly happy with no more stretch goals if it means that they produce acceptable hard suit and mechs.
Coming out with just the SUV/armored car thing should have been manageable but apparently that ran into issues as well. Either way, I'm glad this is funded and I'll consider picking a box of battle eggs up once they hit the store shelves (but not sooner).
My feelings exactly, warboss. I'd love to have some of the egg-suits, but this is a company that put out one good (not great, but still good) hard plastic product and followed it with three mediocre to poor "spin-plastic" products. I'll be waiting until these are produced, sold and independently reviewed before giving up one cent. Honestly, I'm flabbergasted that they're likely to break $ 40k. It baffles me that anyone would pay sight-unseen for a "spin-plastic" product from a company that still hasn't produced a good one, but I guess a perceived "bargain" is enough to make folks take the bait.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
AlexHolker wrote: Mathieu Raymond wrote:Yeah, but the fethed us real bad with a freebie, though! Straight from the Tony Reidy school of management, I would say.
They give every pledger a female NCO freebie. Which won't be ready until, what, august 2014? So even though the hardsuits are ready in February at the latest... you have to pay 10$ to get them before your "freebie" is ready.
I for one will say "no thanks!"
If anyone's up for free female marines but doesn't want to wait an extra 4-6 months, maybe I could pay for the split.
What are you proposing?
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Post by: AlexHolker
If somebody is getting a free squad of female Marines and NCO that they don't want and would delay their order by 4-6 months, I give them $20. In return, they pay Defiance $10 to split their order and send the second shipment to a new address - mine. Assuming Defiance are okay with that arrangement, we both come out $10 ahead.
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Post by: Ouze
You know what, I'm going to cancel my pledge after all. I don't really need the headache this is likely to cause, and I don't mind paying extra once they actually - someday - release products if they look good. I don't mind products being late, but some of the products these guys have dropped didn't resemble the concepts closely enough (Germans, for example).
I'm not bagging on the project and I'd like to buy them at some point but I think I want to see them first.
I'll spend the money on Maxmini instead, no shortage of stuff they have that I like.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
AlexHolker wrote:
If somebody is getting a free squad of female Marines and NCO that they don't want and would delay their order by 4-6 months, I give them $20. In return, they pay Defiance $10 to split their order and send the second shipment to a new address - mine. Assuming Defiance are okay with that arrangement, we both come out $10 ahead.
Except I wouldn't be getting a free squad of female marines... just the NCO. So it's 10$ for a single figure. I'm not sure you're willing to pay 20$ for a fig of spin-cast plastic, right? Automatically Appended Next Post: And I think I'm going to follow Ouze if I don't get an answer by tomorrow.
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Post by: Phobos
Interesting design but I'm not backing it.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I'm going to wait and check out Barzam's stuff before I consider purchasing my own.
These eggs give me such a Dorvack aesthetic I can't help but want one.
Will definitely be keeping an eye out for these things in the future. Hopefully not too far into the future.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
Less than 24 hours left, and no last-minute stretch goals. I guess they are running this one conservatively.
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Post by: noneoftheabove0
I remember that road map! God, I was so young and naive then. Anything was possible. The hot dogs were longer, the kool aid was sweeter and when DFG said they'd release a new box set every month to flesh out their ranges, I trusted them. Young love is beautiful that way.
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Post by: Barzam
Let's hope that they try extra hard to put out a decent quality product for this campaign. Hell, I won't even mind if this gets delayed if it means I get a better quality mini out of it.
And Tamburlaine, I am totally going to paint at least one of these things up in the red and white Nove colors.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Alex Holker: They responded to my query. If you're willing to pay for the shipping (5$ + from me to you); you've got yourself a brand you NCO figure. Think about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you want my assembled but unpainted marines as well?
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Post by: AlexHolker
Thank you for asking, Mathieu, but the squad of female Marines is the important bit, so I will not be taking you up on your offer.
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Post by: HisDivineShadow
noneoftheabove0 wrote:I remember that road map! God, I was so young and naive then. Anything was possible. The hot dogs were longer, the kool aid was sweeter and when DFG said they'd release a new box set every month to flesh out their ranges, I trusted them. Young love is beautiful that way.
Hey hey hey.
DFG is DreamForge Games. NOT Defiance Games.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
I just hope the female marines scale with the male ones and that the details and casting are acceptable, for your sake, Alex.
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Post by: CptJake
Mathieu Raymond wrote:I just hope the female marines scale with the male ones and that the details and casting are acceptable, for your sake, Alex.
General Gordon R. Sullivan wrote:Hope is not a method.
The General must have worked with Tony in the past.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
I moved on, gave up on hope. I settled on Dreamforge Eisenkern (which don't quite fit the visual I was going for, but the quality is amazing).
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Post by: shasolenzabi
Defiance Games is abbreviated as DG
Dream Forge Games gets the DFG and War Games Factory as WGF as opposed to Games-Workshop GW, let us have our abbreviations in order now shall we?
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Post by: Eilif
shasolenzabi wrote:Defiance Games is abbreviated as DG
Dream Forge Games gets the DFG and War Games Factory as WGF as opposed to Games-Workshop GW, let us have our abbreviations in order now shall we?
Since we're being picky, I've got to disagree with you about "Wargames Factory" Wargames in their useage is one word not two, so it should be WF (Maybe WgF?). This would put them at odds with "Wargames Foundry", but most folks just write (and call it) "Foundry" anyway.
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Post by: shasolenzabi
 Eilif wrote: shasolenzabi wrote:Defiance Games is abbreviated as DG
Dream Forge Games gets the DFG and War Games Factory as WGF as opposed to Games-Workshop GW, let us have our abbreviations in order now shall we?
Since we're being picky, I've got to disagree with you about "Wargames Factory" Wargames in their useage is one word not two, so it should be WF (Maybe WgF?). This would put them at odds with "Wargames Foundry", but most folks just write (and call it) "Foundry" anyway.
Long time no see Eiliff! how you doing? besides being ultra-picky with my use of WGF? I have seen even they prefer WGF and a good thing most refer to the other as Foundry as it seems more fitting.
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Post by: Noble713
I'm so glad I bought Maschinen Krieger 1/35 Fireball suits when I did.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/233869.page#629459
24 hardsuits for ~$20 TOTAL.
This Defiance product *looks* nice but .....count me amongst the skeptics for the delivery of a product that meets or exceeds expectations.
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Post by: paulson games
What's that giant flushing sound? $ 40k worth of people's money about to head down the loo?
I'm sure that this time he'll finally get it right and nobody will get burned. 
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I'm pretty optimistic. I think this thread's going to go to some hilarious places. My pledge will be totally worthwhile if someone creates a Tony Reidy "Gotcha!" meme complete with animated gif. Bonus points for any Admiral Ackbar cameo.
Honestly, though, I think I'll be pretty pleased with what I get from this KS in the fullness of time.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
They did pad their time estimate. So, who knows?
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Post by: Eilif
shasolenzabi wrote: Eilif wrote: shasolenzabi wrote:Defiance Games is abbreviated as DG
Dream Forge Games gets the DFG and War Games Factory as WGF as opposed to Games-Workshop GW, let us have our abbreviations in order now shall we?
Since we're being picky, I've got to disagree with you about "Wargames Factory" Wargames in their useage is one word not two, so it should be WF (Maybe WgF?). This would put them at odds with "Wargames Foundry", but most folks just write (and call it) "Foundry" anyway.
Long time no see Eiliff! how you doing? besides being ultra-picky with my use of WGF? I have seen even they prefer WGF and a good thing most refer to the other as Foundry as it seems more fitting.
Doing well. Been immersed in a summer of Song of Blades and Heroes with some Kings of War on the side.
Looking back, you're right. It does make more sense, seems to be the common usage and I think maybe I've even used WGF myself in postings. Oops...
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Post by: Alpharius
Oh, I think quite a few people know.
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Post by: agnosto
You'd at least get a possible tax deduction if you just gave your money to a deserving charity for all the good handing it over to these losers will do you...
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
No I can't, I'm in Canada. And I give to "charities" as it is. Since this is done, we should have it moved to Misc. Miniatures. no?
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Post by: Alpharius
Kickstarter complete - off to Misc. Games and Miniatures...
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Project Update #20: Updates and a new sketch
Posted by Defiance Games
Hey Everyone,
Just a quick update on a couple of things,
We are currently setting up a backer management system so expect something to be released soon. You will be able to add to your pledge as well for all of you who may have wanted to but didn't get a chance before the time ran out.
Also we've got a sketch for one of our exclusive figures!!
Good things on the way,
-Max
We'll see about that. They had hinted at a 1 month state of readiness for the Battle Eggs, but padding it just in case.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
That's all I'm in for. How I proceed depends on when I see those battle eggs.
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Post by: paulson games
From TMP the "change in management" ain't looking so pretty, I hope nobody here is too heavily invested in the KS.
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=294238&page=2
KenofYork 16 Oct 2013 6:34 p.m. PST
I would like to warn people that I have had an extremely unpleasant dealing with the new management. Be very careful about these guys. I am owed a lot of money and I have been informed that the new management will not pay debts owed by Tony. I have a very strong reason to believe the management shift was a shell game to make the kick starter look better. Can't prove it, but have a very strong feeling about it.
This company has been the worst dealings I have had in my limited time as a part time, one man plastic company. I will NEVER work with them again.
They had planned for me to make the plastic mech in the kick starter with out ever even talking to me about it. I found out I was the supplier after reading the kick starter and asking who was making it. I told them I would not be making anything for a company that owed me thousands of dollars and was making no attempt to pay. After I was paid for previous product I would be willing to look at the files and see what could be done. Well, they got a pile of money from kick starter and found someone else to make the mech. And they told me weeks ago they would be returning product, but they have not. This is NOT ok with me, but I have no choice. I would not have made the items if they had not ordered them. Still they have the items in their store, I have no money, and they are setting on almost $50,000 USD in kick starter money.
I am very sorry if this seems to be a bad business move to spread bad news about another company, but I am angry beyond the capacity for rational thought.
Be very careful dealing with them.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
What was the product?
Now I feel bad for supporting the KS.
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Post by: paulson games
Likely its the cargo containers that Ken was making for them. He'd supplied several thousand of them and if defiance can't pay for what they legally bought IMO it doesn't sound very good for them getting product to the people that pledged.
After two massive failures with their previous stuff I had no faith in them to do things right the third time. Ken is a stand up guy and provides a quality product. They should not be treating him that way and sure as heck need to pay their outstanding bill with him.
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Post by: CptJake
 paulson games wrote:Likely its the cargo containers that Ken was making for them. He'd supplied several thousand of them and if defiance can't pay for what they legally bought IMO it doesn't sound very good for them getting product to the people that pledged.
After two massive failures with their previous stuff I had no faith in them to do things right the third time. Ken is a stand up guy and provides a quality product. They should not be treating him that way and sure as heck need to pay their outstanding bill with him.
Actually, I suspect though they will continue to feth over suppliers and some customers, they will eventually deliver some product to at least some pledgers. I also suspect that they will poorly manage the KS funds and deliver a product that is lesser quality than backers expect, at a later date than expected. There will be some problem with 'suppliers' that prevents poor poor Defiance from delivering the Uber Product they intended to during the timeline they claimed they would. (wanna bet the poor schmuck who is owed money gets a share of the blame for 'failing to deliver' on his part of making the mech, even though he did not sign up to do so?)
Seriously, I am amazed folks decided to give them money ahead of time again. If the stove top burned your hand the first time you touched it, and is still glowing red, you can generally assume it will burn your hand the second time you touch it.
And the third.
And the fourth.
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Post by: carlos13th
I like the concept art on these but I am not willing to support the company. Would rather just wait until they are possibly released.
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Post by: Eilif
Well, it looks like DG is not only terrible at customer service, product delivery and quality control, now they're patently dishonest as well. They will be getting none of my money until they make things right with Ken.
Ken is a good guy that I have dealt with many times ordering bases and terrain from his shop "Proxie Models". His Customer service is great and I've always been treated well. For DG to screw over a one-man shop that likely doesn't have the resources to fight legally is wrong on so many levels.
I've been following the battle egg product for years since it was a L&U concept idea on the website (and later forums) of Wargames Factory. It really is the ideal armored suit for my Venturan infantry and fits well with the aesthetic of the other mechs I've made for them. Despite my refusal to buy sight unseen from a company with a poor quality history, I was more than willing to wait and see and buy it from a FLGS if it turns out well. After seeing their treatment of Ken, I think I can live without egg suits.
In the meantime, here's my plugs for Ken, a good guy making great affordable products right here in the USA.
Bases and building kits from his company Proxie Models:
http://proxiemodels.com/store2/
Rust Forge is a more affordable and reliable distributor of Ken's Shipping containers:
http://rustforge.com/commerce/index.php/28mm-terrain/cargo-containers/iso-shipping-container.html
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Oh for feth's sake.
I might as well write off my 25$ and forget about it. Live and learn.
So was Ken supposed to also make their JRAB/Humvee as well? If that's the case, I hope he didn't invest too much time in molds and such...
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
That's really bad news for Proxy
(although handing over product without substantial payment upfront was probably not a wise move)
He'd be wise to try legal action now while there is some KS cash around (if Defiance is the name on his contracts), even though that would probably kill any chance of the KS stuff getting produced
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Post by: Taarnak
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:That's really bad news for Proxy
(although handing over product without substantial payment upfront was probably not a wise move)
He'd be wise to try legal action now while there is some KS cash around (if Defiance is the name on his contracts), even though that would probably kill any chance of the KS stuff getting produced
That depends on what it would cost to take it to court. Might not be worth it.
Shame to hear this. I feel bad for Ken. Not surprised though...
~Eric
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Post by: Dr Mathias
I will admit to being a little surprised a few months ago, when Proxie and Defiance were forming some sort of relationship and the containers and barricades showed up for sale in the Defiance store. I pretty much assumed that Proxie was actively supporting a USA home grown company (Defiance). I figured maybe Ken knew something we didn't...
I have multiples of all of Proxie's 28mm offerings, I like them a lot, and really admire his tenacity and what he's trying to accomplish. I just received the new barricades yesterday.
I also backed the Defiance KS, and frankly knew that there was a really good chance I was flushing the money going into it. I thought it was worth a try, and worth trying to support them getting on their feet if they wanted to change.
I'm not hugely surprised by this, but it is really a damn shame. For some reason I place a lot of value on Ken's statement, I've been following his blog since it started, so I don't think he's blowing steam.
I was told that when Tony Reidy ran WGF, their shipping records were kept in a single Word text document. That was how organized and prepared to run a business they were. "New" Defiance is in a position now where they CANNOT afford to F up, they've got a lot of money on the public record and they WILL get sued over this if they fail to deliver. As far as I know, the 'company' has to pay debts, it doesn't matter who was the 'leader' so the 'we're not paying' strategy just doesn't seem viable. Unless there's no records.
WGF worked really hard to make things right with the customers that Reidy stiffed. If they didn't, it was because Tony's WGF had no records, and if they did, they didn't share them when the changeover took place.
Anxious to see what happens, although now we're on "Kickstarter Time', which always seems to be in a different continuum then our own.
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Post by: CptJake
 Dr Mathias wrote: "New" Defiance is in a position now where they CANNOT afford to F up, they've got a lot of money on the public record and they WILL get sued over this if they fail to deliver. As far as I know, the 'company' has to pay debts, it doesn't matter who was the 'leader' so the 'we're not paying' strategy just doesn't seem viable. Unless there's no records.
I disagree 100%. They can continue on the path they are on, and do fine, as evidenced by the fact that folks like you who knew of their past still backed the KS. Next time they will still have their hard core fans support and sucker in a bunch of new folks, and the folks like you were this time that decide to 'give them another chance' will add to their revenue.
You can't sue if a KS fails to deliver, ALL the risk is carried by the backers.
If Proxie can't afford the court case (or does not have written contracts and other documentation to back up their claim against Defiance), Defiance skates on that too.
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Post by: AlexHolker
CptJake wrote:You can't sue if a KS fails to deliver, ALL the risk is carried by the backers.
You're a sucker if you believe that. This is a pre-order and sold as a pre-order, and as such is subject to the same consumer protection laws as any other sale. The self-serving claim that the customer has no rights does not stand up to scrutiny.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
I can settle for a loss of 25$. Which is probably how they get away with it.
But to screw Ken over, that doesn't sit well with me. I do hope his contract is with Defiance and not in Tony's name. Again, I don't know how it works in the US or in international business law, but in Canada, the company is a "moral individual" (cue the Mitt Romney "Corportions are people, my friend" line) and must abide by a contract or be liable in court. And it's not like they haven't sold the containers, apparently they were shocked that many people ordered the 500$ deal.
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Post by: Dr Mathias
CptJake wrote:
They can continue on the path they are on, and do fine, as evidenced by the fact that folks like you who knew of their past still backed the KS. Next time they will still have their hard core fans support and sucker in a bunch of new folks, and the folks like you were this time that decide to 'give them another chance' will add to their revenue.
A personal weakness of mine is giving second chances to people and, sometimes, businesses. I was partly taken in by "Tony's Gone!" announcements, but I figured even if these powersuits turned out as Dollar Store quality the price was acceptable. I really didn't stop to consider that I might be actively supporting intentional charlatans. I kind of always imagined the "Old WGF" and "Old Defiance" crew (Reidy excepted) were good natured but bumbling doofuses when it came to business decisions, and that in general, groups of people can learn from mistakes.
I'll gladly accept 0.097% of the blame for keeping Defiance going, which is my percentage contribution to the KS.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
CptJake wrote: paulson games wrote:Likely its the cargo containers that Ken was making for them. He'd supplied several thousand of them and if defiance can't pay for what they legally bought IMO it doesn't sound very good for them getting product to the people that pledged.
After two massive failures with their previous stuff I had no faith in them to do things right the third time. Ken is a stand up guy and provides a quality product. They should not be treating him that way and sure as heck need to pay their outstanding bill with him.
Actually, I suspect though they will continue to feth over suppliers and some customers, they will eventually deliver some product to at least some pledgers. I also suspect that they will poorly manage the KS funds and deliver a product that is lesser quality than backers expect, at a later date than expected. There will be some problem with 'suppliers' that prevents poor poor Defiance from delivering the Uber Product they intended to during the timeline they claimed they would. (wanna bet the poor schmuck who is owed money gets a share of the blame for 'failing to deliver' on his part of making the mech, even though he did not sign up to do so?)
Seriously, I am amazed folks decided to give them money ahead of time again. If the stove top burned your hand the first time you touched it, and is still glowing red, you can generally assume it will burn your hand the second time you touch it.
And the third.
And the fourth.
I was afraid that no thread would ever come close to the greatness of the Raging Heroes thread, but then Defiance went all-in and put their (someone else's?) snarglies on the table. $25 is a small price to pay for Dakka immortality.
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Post by: Eilif
As far as KS accountability I'm afraid that CaptJake is probably correct.
While a backer(s) could conceivably go to court, maybe do a class action, etc, in practical terms, it's unlikely. It's a huge undertaking, with large legal fees, especially when most folks are only in a few tens of dollars. I haven't heard of many failure-to-deliver KS's that have resulted in legal action to get back the backer's $.
Also, the fact that the KS hit 50k, shows just how willing folks are to overlook a bad track record, or not research the company they are supporting.
DG is a company that released three subpar products in a row with three missed deadlines. Yet all it took was a new and unproven management team and the fact that they were rebadging Cargo containers (designed and produced by Proxie) and folks were willing to open their wallets for a moderate discount.
Mathieu Raymond wrote:
So was Ken supposed to also make their JRAB/Humvee as well? If that's the case, I hope he didn't invest too much time in molds and such...
From what has been said, I don't think so. Ken says that DG assumed he'd make their mechs without asking him, and when he refused to work on them without being paid for his containers they found someone else. I'm not sure who was doing the JRAB originally or who was going to make the new (plastic?) version.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
From the Book of Faces:
Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary
Followed by some comments asking why the response would take a week:
err... why wait a week? you owe Proxie Models money, right? so why not just pay them, and then announce that you've done so? i've bought several of your kits but will cease being a customer until this is resolved.
I think waiting a week will be too late, apart from the threads on various forums, it's now become an official news item on one of the wargames news sites. Far better to pay off Proxie for the cargo containers you've already sold right now and put an end to the gossip!
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Post by: warboss
I do hope that they resolve the issue of payment and don't just come out with a statement about it.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
I suspect that the response will take a week because that is when their next podcast is supposed to be released.
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Post by: Cypher-xv
And they gotta come up with really good BS. That takes time.
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Post by: Sining
Probably takes a week for them to get enough money to send proxie models a C&D lawyer letter just to intimidate the other guy -_-
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Post by: carlos13th
This has come up on their facebook.
Hello, I'm in a bit of an odd situation here. I was going to prepare a statement regarding Ken from Proxie models and his posts regarding our business transactions on various forums and release that statement next week along with our newest pod cast. Then, there were several messages asking me to comment now. So I did, and all my comments were twisted and spun as I'm sure this message will be as well. I'm damned if I speak up, I'm damned if I'm silent. It's a no win situation for me no matter what I do. But, I feel that I owe it to the customers who have stuck by us to explain what I can as best I can. So I'll do that.
Some think that this is some ploy from Tony Reidy and that you're all being tricked by him. It's not. Tony is out as far as running things.
We are currently in the midst of a company wide reorganization. Tony Reidy has nothing to do with any financial aspects of the company. That's all I can say until things are finalized. Once they are there will be a formal announcement.
I've been reading all the posts left here and elsewhere regarding Proxie-gate as we have come to call it here.
I'm going to say this final word regarding it and will be addressing it in next weeks pod cast then I'm dropping this subject and moving foreword. I'm looking ahead and not back. Take that how you want to.
I've considered all the rational, reasonable comments and realized I was wrong in my original decision. I'm sorry to Ken and to all of you. I believe that there were several misunderstandings on both sides and some things have been blown out of proportion. but it falls on me as I'm the one running things. I made what I thought was a good business decision at that moment but I was wrong. It was a bad call. People make mistakes.
I'll do my best to fix things with Ken if I possibly can.
We are a small company, I have three people in my staff that I have to think about and all the customers who have given us a second chance with the Kickstarter. I refuse to let this ruin that chance.
You, the customers, come first and I'm sorry I let myself get caught up in all this drama as it caused me to lose sight of what's really important, my team and my customers.
Someone from Defiance Games will be contacting Ken and attempt to remedy the situation. Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter. We have several sets to produce and it will be taking up all the Raised money to do that. Sculpts, molds, materials and shipping all add up fast.
Our intention is to fulfill the Kickstarter and move on from all this. We have a lot to do and we will show everyone that we are not the Old Defiance Games. It's possible that the shadows of the old company will haunt us forever. I hope that's not the case and I'll do everything I can to get past that. I understand we have a lot to prove and I know it's not going to be easy.
I also want to thank everyone for all the support I've gotten from friends, family and customers. I sincerely appreciate it. -Gary
For all its length it actually says very little.
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Post by: warboss
Not paying your supplier of one of the only new products you've offered over the past year is a " a good business decision at that moment"? I guess so in a cutthroat 1890's robber baron sort of way as long as he doesn't sue or the info doesn't go public.
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Post by: Ouze
I'm glad to hear it sounds like Ken will be made whole - I like his stuff a lot, and am a customer. I also feel a little relieved that I decided to withdraw my pledge on this; these guys really do seem quite shady.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
In the interest of fairness maybe we can wait until Ken updates his side of the story since this has been published?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well that didn't take as long as I thought:
KenofYork
Ok, here is a long response that I will post on the 2 other forums where this has bled over in to as well.
1. It seems ironic for Defiance to accuse Proxie of unethical business behavior. I wrestled with this for a long time because I knew it would reflect poorly on me to be seen attacking another company. I also considered it more unethical to remain silent and have others lose out. I made a decision and it seems to have stirred things up a bit.
2. Gary and me pretty much hate each other. If you read my blog you might have noticed a tendency to be a bit blunt. Gary seems to pride himself on his honesty and I sent him numerous e-mails accusing him of being a liar and a cheat. I was counting on this money to pay a major expense and it hurt my family to not be paid. I was angry and he took the brunt of it. The last message I sent him I asked for Tony to come back. Since Tony is blamed for everything from global warming to bad pop songs I think this really Bleeped texted him off. Tony is not as bad as he is made out, he was not operating in a vacuum at Defiance, and it is simply outrageous for him to be the sole focus of every problem.
3. All of my business is conducted by emails. Some one sends me an e-mail for an order, I make the stuff and e-mail them an invoice, they pay electronically, and we are all happy. I have never had a signed legal contract with any of my suppliers, or with any of my customers. The standard Defiance is trying to apply is absurd and I wonder how many other people in the industry really get a lawyer and have a legal document drawn up to place a simple order. I sent Gary the e-mails, but by this time we were pretty much done with each other. I called him my sworn foe, a term I have not used since that particularly troublesome NPC in a role play campaign about 25 years ago.
4. I am not getting paid, not now or never. I burnt that bridge, then blew it up with dynamite, then mined the water to prevent fording. Gary is ready to fight it out in court. I have contacted Tony and offered to buy Defiance so I can fire Gary. No really I did.
5. At this point I am ready to call it a day and have a drink or 5. Whatever. Life is too short for all this crap. Anger is not usually a part of my life and I need to get it out of me. So consider the matter closed and I will go about my business and they can go about theirs. People can decide who they want to deal with and who they do not want to deal with. I may look like an ass for exposing this, or Defiance may look like an ass for the way they acted. If I can save one person the frustration I have felt it will have been worth it.
Anyhow, I am finished with this and let's all get back to regular scheduled programing.
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Post by: -iPaint-
I'm always amazed at the amount of drama that surrounds Defiance Games, and how they tend to bring out the worst in the people that they do business with...
Props to Ken for bringing it to light. We'll see if DG makes good on their word.
Popcorn may be necessary for this thread.
~iPaint
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Post by: Alpharius
Really glad I didn't back this one, for a variety of reasons.
Still, best of luck to everyone who did!
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Update #21 Nov 7, 2013
Updates!
Hey All,
So sorry for the silence everyone. Though it is not an excuse to be silent here I have been under the weather for the past couple of weeks and we have had some internal issues we have been sorting through. We'll have a bigger update tomorrow with some more pics but here is a small taste of what we've had cooking.
-Max
Prelim Female Marine bodies ( WIP)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Update #22 Nov 8, 2013
Some more pics
The hardsuits are with the sculptor now being tweaked. I have a couple of screenshots from him below as well as another peek at our Female Marines.
note: the Female Marines are hand sculpted not digital printouts and they will not be included with these bases, they are still WIPs
approximate hardsuit size vs. UAMC Marines
pieced together NCO WIP
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Post by: CptJake
I bet a lot of folks are happy that is a WIP. Hopefully for folks that pre-ordered them a lot more W and P get done on that.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
It's good to see Rob Liefeld reaching out into a new medium.
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Post by: RiTides
CptJake wrote:I bet a lot of folks are happy that is a WIP. Hopefully for folks that pre-ordered them a lot more W and P get done on that.
Lol and agreed, unfortunately...
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
In the meatime... still no shots of the hardsuits except the tired old renders.
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Post by: plastictrees
Have they 'revealed' those screenshots before?
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Not the arm ones, but the missile pods had been released, and complete renders with a starry night background had also been released. Complete with breadknives as a CCW.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Just to make sure I reach all the peeps I can, I posted this in Discussions already:
A source that wishes to remain nameless (and I can't vouch for their credibility either, so salt if you wish) has confirmed that Tony was always in charge.
On top of that, and the alleged lawsuits, there is internal conflict for the control of Defiance.
Source says that the KS money is gone or will be in short order.
Maybe this plays into our confirmation bias about the company, but it certainly sounds plausible. And not even a PM will get me to reveal that source. I was trusted with this information, I shall be worthy of that trust.
It was a 30$ ill spent.
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Post by: Barzam
Well, I guess I'm not seeing any of that money. It'd be nice if they can at least somehow manage to deliver something to the people that backed the KS. Is there any way to get my money back now that it's all over?
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Post by: BrookM
You can always try and get a refund through your credit card company.
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Post by: Azazelx
Mathieu Raymond wrote:
A source that wishes to remain nameless (and I can't vouch for their credibility either, so salt if you wish) has confirmed that Tony was always in charge.
It was a 30$ ill spent.
No source needed. Those two points were always a given, as far as I was concerned...
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Call me an idealist... and a sucker I guess. I tend to be too forgiving and give people a chance. If only there was a way to enforce better business practices on the 'lectronic frontier...
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Post by: Azazelx
As penance, you must now buy something from Rustforge and something from Proxie Models...
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Post by: JoshInJapan
 Azazelx wrote:As penance, you must now buy something from Rustforge and something from Proxie Models...
I did both, despite the outrageous overseas postage. Very nice, and I may have to get some more stuff when I'm back in the US next month.
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Post by: scarletsquig
Well, there's a lot of people that will back them if they make another kickstarter because the made in America thing is very popular.
I don't think they have to worry too much, people have short memories.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
 BrookM wrote:You can always try and get a refund through your credit card company.
I think Kickstarter and Amazon might have an issue with that, though.
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Post by: warboss
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Call me an idealist... and a sucker I guess. I tend to be too forgiving and give people a chance. If only there was a way to enforce better business practices on the 'lectronic frontier...
If you feel the need to scratch that itch again, feel free to send me paypal cash and I'll give you something to forgive. Eh, like you said, you went in eyes wide open and technically nothing *YET* bad has happened.
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Post by: CptJake
warboss wrote:
If you feel the need to scratch that itch again, feel free to send me paypal cash and I'll give you something to forgive. Eh, like you said, you went in eyes wide open and technically nothing *YET* bad has happened.
Unless of course you look at it from the perspective of Proxie Models and Rustforge of course...
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Post by: Barzam
Who knows, maybe Tony will wind up getting ousted and we'll actually get the things we were promised. I mean, they have sent out updates since the KS ended. Why go to the effort if you're just going to screw over your backers?
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Post by: Taarnak
Barzam wrote:Who knows, maybe Tony will wind up getting ousted and we'll actually get the things we were promised. I mean, they have sent out updates since the KS ended. Why go to the effort if you're just going to screw over your backers?
To make it look like they are spending the money on the project as per the terms of use with KS?
I wouldn't hold my breath on Tony getting ousted. Knew it was a sham at the beginning of this KS and I wish more folks had listened.
I sincerely hope you get your product, but I suspect if you get anything it will be substandard, unfortunately.
~Eric
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Post by: CptJake
Taarnak wrote: Barzam wrote:Who knows, maybe Tony will wind up getting ousted and we'll actually get the things we were promised. I mean, they have sent out updates since the KS ended. Why go to the effort if you're just going to screw over your backers?
To make it look like they are spending the money on the project as per the terms of use with KS?
~Eric
Exactly. They will assuredly have some documentation to show they made a valiant effort to deliver and spent the funds in a legitimate attempt to do so. This will make it very difficult for backers to recoup any money lost. The longer the time between paying and asking your credit card company to reverse the charges also makes it hared to go that route (after 6 months it will prove very difficult in most cases).
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Post by: richred_uk
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/topics.mv?id=30
One by one the supporters of defiance draw back the curtains. If you don´t know, Mexican jack squint is Howard Whitehouse, the writer of the Alien wars rules defiance were setting their figures around.
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Post by: -iPaint-
Here's a direct link to the thread in question:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=327045
Really hope the people who backed this see some form of reward eventually - whether its actual miniatures, or just part of their pledge money that makes it back to them somehow.
I, however, stayed away from this KS like the plague, since anything Defiance Games* does seems to be absolute gak and takes forever to reach market.
~iPaint
*when ran under TtBHJ
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Update #23 Nov 18, 2013
Survey says...
Well, it doesn't anything right now because we are interested in getting your feedback. There are many of you who have been involved in many different Kickstarter's in the past. We have been looking at two survey management services/software: one is called After the Crowd and the other is called BackerKit.
If any of you have experience with these - or other methods - please let us know here. We want to finalize the survey and get it out to everyone ASAP as we move forward with the sets.
Also we are going to try to have regular updates here at least weekly - and hopefully more as we roll things out. Many of you have noticed we closed our online store for the time being as we are reorganizing things and want to focus 100% on the Kickstarter production. Although February seems like an eternity away, it will be on us quickly!
This was from late yesterday, I believe. Automatically Appended Next Post: Update #24 Nov 19, 2013
Hardsuit Progress and Next Steps
I just got off the phone with Nick Genovese who is sculpting some of the extra heads that will go in with the hardsuit sets. These are the operator heads - not the "head" of the suit itself. Those teeny bits of the project will be well in hand as Nick is great to work with and quite talented!
The heads are the only part of the set that will be sculpted by hand - the rest is all digital design which will require 3D printing to create masters.
Because of the high level of detail in the sculpts, we are going to 3D print them in wax.
Wax has the benefit of taking incredible amounts of detail and requires less clean up than other types of 3D printing but the downside is that the prints are VERY fragile. Because of this we're using the tried-and-true method to turn the wax prints into metal masters - lost wax investment casting. This process will let us print in wax - turn those prints into brass master casts - and then use those casts to build our final molds.
As we start this process we'll keep you updated with pics of the parts and show you how it's going. We're just finishing up the last tweaks to the 3D files to get them ready for the printing/investment casting service.
That all said, we have another question to ask everyone. During the Kickstarter there was a change to the hardsuits proposed and we want to make sure everyone has a chance to give feedback on this change: the final size of the hardsuits.
Alex Iglesias' concept art and first orthos showed the hardsuits being basically man-sized. They were designed to have an operator inside like so:
However, in designing the suits it ended up that the positioning of the arms would have to be altered in such a way that the operator would have to dislocate their shoulder and rip their arms off in order to fit into the actual arms of the suit! See here:
This was fine - it actually allowed us to have some interesting arm options. You can see at this point of design that the sizing is still meant to be basically man-sized.
But then during the Kickstarter there was an announcement that we'd be making the suits a larger size which would be more along these lines:
This is clearly much larger than what was originally envisioned by Alex. However, the beauty of 3D printing is that we can choose and print in any mm size we want it to be without having to change anything (there is one area that requires change which is the open cockpit - but that's a fairly minor detail compared to the whole suit)
Anyway, given all this we'd love to have your feedback as to what the final sizing should be. Neither choice will effect our timeline. We just want to know which size is most useful in your gaming and modeling? Which size will make you happy? Let us know!
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
So long as Tony doesn't try to tinker with the wax mix or the printing process the way he tinkered with the trollcast, then I'm sure it will all turn out...comedically tragic, really. But with less face-palming.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I hope they use this process on some upcoming Brazilian troops.
You know why.
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Post by: CptJake
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:So long as Tony doesn't try to tinker with the wax mix or the printing process the way he tinkered with the trollcast, then I'm sure it will all turn out...comedically tragic, really. But with less face-palming.
So long as the guy doing the heads decides to deliver his product before being paid and agrees not to sue for what he is owed, sounds like they have a plan.
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Post by: Azazelx
It really is like watching a slow-motion car crash ...on endless repeat.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Not to cast doubts, but is lost wax really an appropriate method for making miniature masters?
I've actually done it myself, but on a larger art piece (and in bronze, I think) that was then refinished with a grinder and sander. I'm very much not in the know on such things, but... it just seems like (given previous experience) this is adding a step that could potentially cause a real loss of detail.
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Post by: Bolognesus
They wouldn't be the only ones to do it (I believe Anvil does it as well?) and from what I've seen of those techniques, it works quite well. It's not going to produce masters which will stay good on their own but that's why you make a couple of master casts (among other reasons).
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Post by: CptJake
 Buzzsaw wrote:Not to cast doubts, but is lost wax really an appropriate method for making miniature masters?
I've actually done it myself, but on a larger art piece (and in bronze, I think) that was then refinished with a grinder and sander. I'm very much not in the know on such things, but... it just seems like (given previous experience) this is adding a step that could potentially cause a real loss of detail.
I know it is used in jewelry making, and for some relatively intricate pieces. I am more concerned with the sculptor. Being able to make rings does not necessarily translate to being able to sculpt 28mm faces.
Of course, betting on this working and actually getting to market, regardless of the sculpting or casting methods, would be silly.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
CptJake wrote: Buzzsaw wrote:Not to cast doubts, but is lost wax really an appropriate method for making miniature masters?
I've actually done it myself, but on a larger art piece (and in bronze, I think) that was then refinished with a grinder and sander. I'm very much not in the know on such things, but... it just seems like (given previous experience) this is adding a step that could potentially cause a real loss of detail.
I know it is used in jewelry making, and for some relatively intricate pieces. I am more concerned with the sculptor. Being able to make rings does not necessarily translate to being able to sculpt 28mm faces.
Of course, betting on this working and actually getting to market, regardless of the sculpting or casting methods, would be silly.
See, that's how I used it essentially, as it is used in jewelry casting. It works quite well there, but (as I understand this) an additional step is being added.
That is, we would make the wax part, then use that to make the negative mold, which would then be filled with the final molten metal mix.
Here, it seems an additional casting step is added: the wax will make a negative mold, which will be used to make a positive master, which will then be used to make a secondary set of negative molds.
Like I said though, while I felt the whole thing seems wonky, Bolognesus seems to be implying that other companies do it, so perhaps it's just fine.
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Post by: Dr Mathias
A master made from a lost wax method shouldn't have any mold lines- that's one advantage. I'm not worried about the level of detail.
Not sure how many gates they'd need, there are lots of things that can go wrong casting metal with lost wax and I'd be shocked if they get it right the first time. Hopefully they'll outsource a pro to do it, then the R&D is on them.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
No, it was on us, to the tune of 46K...
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Post by: Dr Mathias
Sorry, what I meant is that most companies are reputable and when they commit to something they try to get it right, even if it means extra work or investment. So, my hope is that Defiance found a jeweler that will produce the wax model, invest it, create the master, clean it, and send it back to Defiance.
Hopefully Defiance will send the cleaned master to someone else that can cast it. I don't want them trying to figure out how to switch Trollcast to Defiancecast or whatever the heck they were trying to do with their other abysmal attempts.
I don't have any confidence that Defiance can do any of those things competently on their own. And at this point, as far as we know, the only person that actually works for Defiance is Tony- based on Darred's blog, howard Whitehouse's statement on TMP, and Rust Forge's statement on Frother's. The recent Facebook responses sound exactly like Tony.
Kickstarter backers were bamboozled by the 'Tony's Gone!" announcement.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Indeed. I was just being facetious.
In the meantime, another update... on the update.
Update #25 Nov 21, 2013
An Update on an Update
This isn't really an update. I wanted to call attention to a comment we made in the last update (#24) about hardsuit sizing. We wanted to clarify the size that is being depicted in that bottom photo and call attention to the fact that it is around 47mm tall compared to the UAMC Marine figure next to it. As people are discussing the sizing we felt it was best to be as clear as possible as we're reading a lot of different #s being discussed.
Here's the link to the comment. Feel free to continue to chime in on that one:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/defiancegames/28mm-power-armor-hardsuits-defiance-games/posts/668177?cursor=5183230#comment-5183229
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Post by: carlos13th
Honestly may be worth trying to get your money back on this. Considering they were intentionally deceptive in regards to management.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Of my 25$, there are about 20$ left with my name still on it... I've made my peace and moved on. I just keep the thread updated for your enjoyment.
If I get crappy minis in the end, then it'll be nice for scenery or scenarios.
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Post by: RiTides
If you want a refund, and act quickly, it should still be possible to get one. NoseGoblin posted this in the thread in Dakka Discussions:
 NoseGoblin wrote:I was hoping that the company was turning over a new leaf but with all the recent news it seems that is not a possibility.
As a result I requested and was given a full refund.
NoseGoblin wrote:I contacted them and never received a reply. I then opened a ticket with Amazon Payments. I would imagine they still have some leeway in deciding that they will or will not give refunds so I am assuming they (Defiance) decided that they would approve the refund.
It seems he did it through "opening a ticket with Amazon Payments". That's not a method I'd heard of before, but it sounds like it might be similar to Paypal- you may have a window near the date of purchase in which to request a refund.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
But then who'll keep you entertained?
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Post by: AlexHolker
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Update #26 Nov 27, 2013
Pre-Turkey Day Update
5 comments Like 4 likes
For those of you who are celebrating tomorrow - Happy Thanksgiving! For those of you who are not we'll all make sure to have extra helpings in your honor! For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving
Thanks to everyone who posted to let us know your thoughts on the hardsuit sizing - it was very informative and helpful as we are moving everything forward. Here's a photo of the proposed hardsuit size next to a UAMC Marine figure to give you a real apples-to-apples comparison:
If everyone is happy with that - we'll be moving onto 3D prints and preparing for the tooling phase. Please feel free to comment again!
In other news, after reviewing the various options we're going to use FundaFull - http://www.fundafull.com - they had some features we liked and they're actually somewhat local to us so that's always a bonus! We're in the process of organizing it all and it *should* be ready to go after the holiday weekend if all goes according to plan.
As mentioned in a previous comment that you might have missed - Bob Naismith was partially done with the female Marines and we posted them up a bit prematurely. He is going back into them with a vengeance along with doing an additional original sculpt. We hope to see something back from him in a week or two and we'll pass it onto you as soon as we do!
Again for those of you celebrating Thanksgiving tomorrow - enjoy. For the rest of you have a great rest of the week and we'll be talking again soon! Automatically Appended Next Post: For my money's worth, I'll say this. It looks like the exact same suit, so I don't know if they are just doing this to give us the impression of having a few of them, but it is fishy.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
So, I haven't really heard back from Kickstarter about this. Some new stuff has come up since I reported the KS last time. Should I keep pursuing this?
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Post by: CptJake
Mathieu Raymond wrote:
For my money's worth, I'll say this. It looks like the exact same suit, so I don't know if they are just doing this to give us the impression of having a few of them, but it is fishy.
Of course it is fishy, it is Defiance.
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Post by: Dr Mathias
Yeah, it's the same figure that has already been shown before, they've just photographed it next to a physical marine.
A skeptic would suggest that they just went with the size they originally planned to do all along.
So, another not-really-updating-anything update although I do like seeing the power armor next to an actual marine and not a photoshop job.
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Post by: BrookM
Also, dem containers in the background.. 
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
At least they are now paid for containers.
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Post by: BrookM
Aye, at least that bit of misery got the morphine it needed.
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Post by: warboss
Mathieu Raymond wrote:
For my money's worth, I'll say this. It looks like the exact same suit, so I don't know if they are just doing this to give us the impression of having a few of them, but it is fishy.
Sure does look like the same. Same darker patch of ground to the right of the left most grass... same rocks behind each tuft of grass... I guess they just went with what they had planned all along!
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Post by: carlos13th
yeah looks like they stuck with the size. Not sure if thats because people said the size was good or because its less work.
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Post by: winnertakesall
I worked with DF a little bit in the past, just playtesting their rules and giving feedback on the early company, been in the email group ever since, jrecieved an email from Gary a few days ago, I hope it clears some things up:
Hey all.
I don't know how many people actually come our here but I wanted to update you all as best I could with the Situation at Defiance Games.
I know there's been a lot of confusion as to what's actually going on. The fact is that myself and the team that had been working on the Kickstarter have left the Company.
Tony is now running things and we're moving on. Howard has been around giving our team valued advice but otherwise he's been pretty much out of the company for a long time. I know he's asked Tony to remove his rules from the Website. He's moving on as well.
Take care.
Gary
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
Aside from all the other issues, it always amazes me just how crap their pictures are. It's not that hard! A cheap point-n-shoot with marco function and a cheap lightbox with lights can cost less than $200, and you get tons better photographs. Right now it's like their using a cameraphone with greasy fingerprints all over the lens. And don't even get me started on the lighting...
~Tim?
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Post by: carlos13th
 winnertakesall wrote:I worked with DF a little bit in the past, just playtesting their rules and giving feedback on the early company, been in the email group ever since, jrecieved an email from Gary a few days ago, I hope it clears some things up:
Hey all.
I don't know how many people actually come our here but I wanted to update you all as best I could with the Situation at Defiance Games.
I know there's been a lot of confusion as to what's actually going on. The fact is that myself and the team that had been working on the Kickstarter have left the Company.
Tony is now running things and we're moving on. Howard has been around giving our team valued advice but otherwise he's been pretty much out of the company for a long time. I know he's asked Tony to remove his rules from the Website. He's moving on as well.
Take care.
Gary
Why did Gary claim he was in charge and carry on with the kickstarter when this was clearly not the case. He was clearly part of this deception.
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Post by: Barzam
winnertakesall wrote:I worked with DF a little bit in the past, just playtesting their rules and giving feedback on the early company, been in the email group ever since, jrecieved an email from Gary a few days ago, I hope it clears some things up:
Hey all.
I don't know how many people actually come our here but I wanted to update you all as best I could with the Situation at Defiance Games.
I know there's been a lot of confusion as to what's actually going on. The fact is that myself and the team that had been working on the Kickstarter have left the Company.
Tony is now running things and we're moving on. Howard has been around giving our team valued advice but otherwise he's been pretty much out of the company for a long time. I know he's asked Tony to remove his rules from the Website. He's moving on as well.
Take care.
Gary
Okay, so what exactly does that mean for the backers exactly? Are they still supposedly going to fulfill the Kickstarter pledges or are they pushing it aside?
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Defiance games as a business did the KS so Defiance (with Tony as the owner from the sound of it) is the one who has to fulfil the KS
assuming it can (bringing in new staff/contractors as needed)
(Gary and the rest ran the KS as employees of Defiance but from the above they've all left)
if not and the money runs out either from being spent on getting the KS stuff done or from pre-existing debts then Defiance folds and the KS backers are out of luck
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
On the one hand, more diversity of products is always good... but at this point, we've wished well to this company, even when we snickered at their failures, for 2 years. Maybe it's just time for Defiance to just give it up. I'm sure there is a big bank in New York looking for someone with Tony's skills.
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Post by: legoburner
Has anyone actually checked defiance exists as a legal entity? I have heard that they've let companies lapse in the past in all but name and was curious if defiance was still a registered entity or not?
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Post by: richred_uk
Yes, they are registered as an llc in Wyoming which is supposed to have very lax rules for corporate governance and transparency. I don't have the link right now, it was deleted when posted on their Facebook page but Google will find it with some work. Automatically Appended Next Post: https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=090047168059237013184254039215154122145244098244
Found it again. I'm not sure how to get access to the documents listed in the history, it's not as user friendly as Companies House in the UK.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
They claim their copyright on theit own website as an LLC, but what do I know? Seriously, I have no idea how to check that up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd.
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Post by: Bolognesus
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Defiance games as a business did the KS so Defiance (with Tony as the owner from the sound of it) is the one who has to fulfil the KS
assuming it can (bringing in new staff/contractors as needed)
(Gary and the rest ran the KS as employees of Defiance but from the above they've all left)
if not and the money runs out either from being spent on getting the KS stuff done or from pre-existing debts then Defiance folds and the KS backers are out of luck
Actually, if Gary misrepresented himself as an executive of Defiance that is something which can potentially make him personally liable for obligations incurred on Defiance's behalf as such, if Defiance does not come through on them.
Kind of a tricky thing to argue (costly, mostly) so I don't think a KS project totalling <60K USD will warrant that, really.
Still, while I'd have to look up how the US (and wyoming specifically) handles this sort of thing exactly, he's not entirely clear AFAIK.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Also, does Kickstarter not have a bit of a responsibility in making sure those they allow to use their platform are legitimate businesses?
If there is no paper trail linking Gary to Defiance management, didn't KS fail in its due diligence? (I'm genuinely asking, I'm about to open the store and I can't spend too much time trawling KS policy)
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Post by: warboss
I thought the premise of KS was to allow individuals the funding necessary to form legitimate businesses and bring products to the market. Considering that one of the first kickstarters I heard of was a guy setting up a campaign to buy a sandwich that raised several thousand dollars after it went viral, I don't think that was a requirement. Putting in that requirement also opens them up to some more liability as they'd have some obligation to actually *CHECK* and see if the information submitted was real and not just fake (like the Munsters address I enter on web registration forms I don't care about) if they're vouching for kickstarters only being run by legitimate businesses. It's markedly better for them to just be a hands off portal where everyone can interact at their own risk.
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Post by: AlexHolker
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Also, does Kickstarter not have a bit of a responsibility in making sure those they allow to use their platform are legitimate businesses?
No, because it's not meant for legitimate businesses. The established businesses are the blow-ins here, not the start-ups and random schlubs.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Well they've done a KS update and have actual prints of the hardsuit to show
(and from the look of it decent ones too rather than fuzzy home 3D printer resolution)
also they say
Now that we have decided on the scale and have the final 3D prints, we just need to have them in hand to approve everything and we can then give the go-ahead to begin mold making.
The core Hardsuit set is the first for production (since the delivery date is February) but we are concurrently working with Bob Naismith on the female Marines, the heavy weapon options, the specialty figures, and the German Mech. As each of those projects move forward, we'll have more updates and more to show.
We have some more news to share in the next few days as well, but until then we'll leave you with a little teaser of something else that's in the works:
oh and they say the backer survays are due as soon as Funderfull does a software update
Am I surprised? yes actually, but a decent bit of progress for the backers
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Post by: Barzam
Hey, maybe this won't turn out to be money thrown away after all! This pleases me. If the final product looks at least as decent as those 3d prints, I might actually even wind up happy with what I get.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Why are they working on another sculpt? That's got to be costing them more money that they can't afford to spend if they're serious about this kickstarter.
Blargh. Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, they just responded to my concerns.
Hi [REDACTED] - the amount that was owed under the old management to Rust Forge and Proxie was actually very little. Not even 1/10th of the total. So no need to worry about that. We believe we are budgeting everything effectively.
The total focus right now is on the Kickstarter deliverables however we have had a legacy project in the works - our first alien race - and the sculptor is just now getting into it. This is an Edge Force (i.e. not a large set) and something that will follow on once the KS sets are finalized.
As you know we hope to beat the dates we've set and lead time for development can be long so it's important to have work in motion or we'll have a gap down the road that isn't good for the business.
Thanks for your concern - we're doing okay!
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Post by: RiTides
 warboss wrote: Mathieu Raymond wrote:
For my money's worth, I'll say this. It looks like the exact same suit, so I don't know if they are just doing this to give us the impression of having a few of them, but it is fishy.
Sure does look like the same. Same darker patch of ground to the right of the left most grass... same rocks behind each tuft of grass... I guess they just went with what they had planned all along!
It's the exact same model, lol... But as noted, at least the containers in the background of the new pic are now paid for
The 3d prints look good, for what it's worth.
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Post by: carlos13th
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Why are they working on another sculpt? That's got to be costing them more money that they can't afford to spend if they're serious about this kickstarter.
Blargh.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, they just responded to my concerns.
Hi [REDACTED] - the amount that was owed under the old management to Rust Forge and Proxie was actually very little. Not even 1/10th of the total. So no need to worry about that. We believe we are budgeting everything effectively.
The total focus right now is on the Kickstarter deliverables however we have had a legacy project in the works - our first alien race - and the sculptor is just now getting into it. This is an Edge Force (i.e. not a large set) and something that will follow on once the KS sets are finalized.
As you know we hope to beat the dates we've set and lead time for development can be long so it's important to have work in motion or we'll have a gap down the road that isn't good for the business.
Thanks for your concern - we're doing okay!
Still keeping up with the whole new management old management charade huh.
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Post by: AlexHolker
carlos13th wrote:Still keeping up with the whole new management old management charade huh.
They're not going to let Snowball off the hook that easily.
I also like how they're working on their third first alien race.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Darn, Alex beat me to it. I was going to say that if this was the first race Edge Force... then those were legged swamp worms... or something wittier. I swear.
If Defiance delivers a quality product on time... will this mean the end of the world as we know it?
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Post by: Barzam
Well, they're sending out pledge managers, so maybe Hell will freeze over. I got mine this morning. I think I may switch one of my hardsuits out for some UAMC Marines. That way I'll be sure to get at least something of decent quality if they actually deliver.
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Post by: carlos13th
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
The plot, like my waist, thickens.
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Post by: richred_uk
The ´new´ CEO has been working with Tony Reidy since the Wargames Factory days.
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Post by: warboss
A promotion to Red Shirt 1st class! I'm going to assume his first away mission with Captain Tony Kirk will be the next time questions/comments/complaints are raised.
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Post by: RiTides
The text for those who don't want to click:
WELCOMING NEW CEO JOHN MORSE TO DEFIANCE GAMES
We are pleased to announce that John Morse will become CEO of Defiance Games effective January 1st, 2014.
John has worked with Defiance previously in product development and other areas and has been heavily involved with the company over the last several weeks. He brings with him a variety of experience. In the course of his career he has held positions in client services, business development, new venture creation, and public and media relations for both start-up and Fortune 1000 companies. In 1998 he earned a Masters of Business Administration from the Sloan School at M.I.T.
John’s initial focus will be overseeing the fulfillment of our Kickstarter deliverables followed by the expansion of our product line. Although his official start date is January, John is currently transitioning into his new role and working with the Defiance team on all aspects of the business.
Please join us in welcoming John to Defiance Games!
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Post by: Barzam
That's fine. Maybe he can get Defiance to actually produce stuff on something resembling a regular schedule.
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Post by: motyak
Bets on how long he's 'in charge'?
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Post by: warboss
Till the next public fiasco?
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Post by: BrookM
Or maybe he has a certain someone's arm jammed up his rectum.
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Post by: richred_uk
Supposedly he has been named earlier as an owner of defiance. Would make sense to step in to protect your property if it's in Tony Reidy' s hands. As the owner of wargames factory proved.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Ooh, ooh, ooh! Can I be CEO next?
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Post by: CptJake
Yes, if you meet two conditions.
1. You are willing to do exactly what Tony says.
2. You are willing to lie to potential customers and suppliers in an attempt to steal their money or goods.
Being an actual legless reptile adds bonus points to your resume but is not required.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
I suddenly remembered this from old Francophone comedy:
"Come one, any @$$hole with money can rent a stadium.
*phone rings*
-Stadium?
-I'd like to rent your space.
-Do you have money?
-No, but I'm an @$$hole.
-Sir, it takes both, unfortunately.
I guess it looses a bit in the translation.
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Post by: richred_uk
Some interesting comments from Ed Fortae on Debacle Games on the Trollforged FB Page:
https://www.facebook.com/trollforgedminiatures
Have a look at the posts on 4th and 5th Jan
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Post by: RiTides
So we don't duplicate discussion, please direct posts about this over to where richred also posted this in the Dakka Discussions thread about Defiance:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/558217.page#6413718
And keep this thread for discussion of the Kickstarter / hardsuits... if/when they ever have more developments...
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
IF
That's a big if.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Honestly, I'm more upset about how Robotech Tactics is going. I put a lot more money in that and didn't hedge my expectations...
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Post by: paulson games
I have it on good authority that the prints that were revealed as "just having arrived" have been kicking around at DG for the better part of a year before they even launched their KS campaign. Gotta love false updates like that and the supposedly rescaled print that was dangled in the pics which is the same painted model they had before the KS as well.
Bob, never bank on Palladium, but that's for the other thread
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
It was quite obvious the rescale was nothing of the sort.
The prints picture, however, that is truly disappointing. Not unexpected, however, given who we're dealing with.
Who's the CEO this week?
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Did anyone else get the new Torn Armour update? Defiance Games killed their KS!
Dear Backers,
This is not an easy update to send out, but I have always been open, honest and transparent with you all and recently the Torn World team has had to have some very unpleasant conversations regarding “Torn Armor.”
We have hit a major obstacle here – which I will detail below – and it is only fair to be open and clear on the parties involved. I will simply layout the facts as they have occurred and you can form your own conclusions. What I will say is that ultimately you put your faith and trust in me to ensure that this project was delivered, and in that I have failed you. So while the Torn Armor team has hit unforeseen circumstances and been subjected to unprofessional behavior and broken promises, ultimately I am responsible and please direct your frustrations squarely towards me.
A Recap:
As you will remember, immediately after the Kickstarter ended last year we contacted the China-based companies to finalize our quotes, and were then informed that even though our quotes were less than 90 days old the new production prices, across the board, jumped by 30%. This caused us to seek an alternative production company and during this time one of our backers came forward with a recommendation. This recommendation was given and genuinely provided to help the project, but in hindsight it set us on an unfortunate path.
The company recommended is here in the United State, and this – if anything – I viewed as being beneficial. What I did not know, and honestly had no way of knowing, was that they were about to head into some very troubling times. This company is Defiance Games.
Back in June/July of last year I had my first contact with Defiance and after talking to them for a short while, I felt that it was a good solution and I felt confident that everything was still on track. But the intervening time has been nothing but stalls, delays, staffing shuffles, and sideways movement. They brought on a new CEO shortly after I signed contracts with them, which I found to be alarming, but was told that it was to improve the running of the company. They acknowledged that they had been experiencing turbulent times and the new CEO was to help get things back on track; I was reassured, numerous times and by their upper management that all was on track and schedule.
The team I had recently been introduced to and communicated with soon left and a new team was brought onboard. Again I got to meet them and again I was reassured that the changes were for the best. We were still prepping miniatures for mold production, deadlines and timelines were re-affirmed as being “November,” and while I was uncomfortable with the constant switching of staff, I felt that the wheels were moving and shortly we’d start seeing masters roll off the 3d printers. When this did not happen as promised I started updates regarding delays, later delivery timeframes and so on. I simply need time to sort out what was actually happening and where I might be able to adjust as needed.
Now while I am a patient person and I can be understanding the constant delays and lack of action from Defiance made me think that this was more than a “changing of the guard, or a that new production schedule was being implemented.” I realized there was something seriously wrong.
With our initial deadlines past and the old year ending I put them under great pressure to get things moving. With this pressure we saw the hoplite. He was great and Defiance confirmed that they could work with the model.
I believed we had a light at the end of the tunnel. With constant pressure and micro management on my end I cautiously believed we could get the project on a track towards completion.
It was at this time that Defiance stated that they would not produce any masters until they had finished a batch of models. They then informed us that the file format we had provided them, their choice, wasn’t going to work. This new format was already a replacement of the original format they said wouldn’t work, which again was their choice. Soon after this they started talking about “going back to the models from last October” It was at this time I knew we were going into a downward spiral of excuses and finger pointing.
Ironically their chief responsibility was the creation of a usable, printable, castable 3d miniature models. Early on, they informed me they were unable to work with my artist/modeler and they in turn chose the artist/modeler they wanted to work with. The file format wasn’t going to work!
Clearly we have a serious problem.
Get Another Production Company?
Last Friday I concluded that Defiance was completely unable to fulfill our needs and that I made a mistake in choosing them. Being noble and generous I would say that they truly felt like they could handle it, but the reality of the project – in addition to their own projects – was too much. There may well be other reasons.
I formally asked for our money back less the approved and agreed charges and after a weekend of badgering they told me on Monday that “We do not have the available cash on hand to return these funds at this time” and “We are gearing up here for our own releases to get new product to market and improve our cash flow.”
The Problem
And herein lies the problem: Defiance have not been able to produce the miniatures, but they are also unable to return the funds. And the funds are somewhat substantial.
Currently, we are reviewing all legal options, but I have very little faith that we will simply get this money back.
Torn Armor is effectively dead in the water.
Where Do We Go From Here?
Clearly our options are considerably broadened if Defiance returns our funds: Reaper Miniatures offered to help out, but without these funds allocated to the miniatures being able to fulfill on the miniatures is an impossibility.
The money lost is crippling, but it wasn’t everything and we can put the remaining funds to good use. Currently we are discussing offering partial refunds, creating the game-only tier (rules, maps, cards, units, dice) or simply staying in a holding pattern until there is news where our funds are returned, but this last option could honestly be something that dragged on for years and we are not a fan of that route.
This situation simply sucks.We have put in a lot of our own personal money into this, we created a dream and you – our incredible backers – were the best that anyone could have ever asked for. We all passionately worked together for the Kickstarter and I earned some good friends because of it, so to now be reduced to this a year later is utterly crushing.
I fought off this moment as long as I could, but I would not send out an update like this without firmly believing that we just ran into a brick wall.
Tl:dr
In a nutshell we have been screwed by our supplier and are now not able to fulfill this Kickstarter project. We are discussing all options at the moment, but do consider the miniatures portion of this project dead.
~ Natalya & the Torn World Team
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Did you also post this in the Dakka Discussion forum?
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
It seemed relevant to both threads. It's a good warning to the community and also sheds light on the behind the scenes shenanigans of this kickstarter.
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