28mm resin prehistoric mammals. $80.00 gets you all the critters pictured. Individual animal pledges are available as well.
Spoiler:
At this point, even at $15.00 you will be getting your pick of one of the original 8 choices, plus seven stretch goals (for free): 4 different terror birds, the cave lion, and a mammoth rat.
Samples of the currently sculpted freebies:
Spoiler:
$125 gets you near 40 figures, with doubles on a bunch of the larger animals. Here's all the current stretch goals they have pictures of. There's some missing even!
They seem to not want to say if the stretch goals are free or not...
If they are, I'm in.
EDIT: So they're free at "certain levels". Ok, which levels? Terror Bird was also stated as being an add-on, so likely the more popular ones will be paid and the lesser known ones will be the freebies...
Well, the very highest pledge level specifically states that it's for two copies of all models, including basic and epic stretch goals.
Depending on what is included at different levels, splitting that pledge with someone (so $112.50 apiece) could be the most cost effective way to go. That's only if this does well and starts unlocking stretch goals, though... personally I need to see a bit more first.
I really would like to see (at the very minimum) sculpts or renders of each of the animals before the campaign is done. At least the mammoth is being done by hand, so we can see how that will turn out. Plus it would be nice to see how they stack up to other games' figures.
They've got a lot of ambition, but unfortunately ambition only gets you so far on Kickstarter, especially with miniatures. At some point or another, you gotta show the goods if you really want people's money- especially with a new and unknown company.
I'd like to see some comparison pics next to other 28mm minis too. Their claims of "as big as a transport for warhammer or hordes" leaves it open to a lot of interpretation, especially considering hordes doesn't have transports, unless they mean "mounts"...
Also, the cartoony art is a bit weird. I'd prefer it to err on the side of realism.
I prefer things like this to be more realistic personally, especially if sure as encounters. An animal companion, sure why not? Are there pictures of any other sculpts? If they make them more realistic I'll gladly jump aboard, but as it stands now I may pass. I don't like kickstarters with just art. I like to see at least a couple sculpts first.
Dryaktylus wrote: Er... half of them aren't even remotely "Ice Age Mammals". And it's Uintatherium.
Are not all the creatures in the OP not mammals? Or is the issue "ice-age"? If so, it's just a common term that more people identify with than Cenozoic Era or Pleistocene.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also of note, at the bottom of the kickstarter page there are 3D models of some of the creatures(I would link but am currently mobile-only). It would appear that the Smilodon at least is keeping a more "cartoony" aesthetic.
Dryaktylus wrote: Er... half of them aren't even remotely "Ice Age Mammals". And it's Uintatherium.
Are not all the creatures in the OP not mammals? Or is the issue "ice-age"? If so, it's just a common term that more people identify with than Cenozoic Era or Pleistocene.
Sure, they're mammals, but several are from the Tertiary (or Palaeogene and early Neogene). And "Ice Age" as synonyme for the whole Cenozoic is just... well, okay, I studied this stuff, sorry.
Dryaktylus wrote: Er... half of them aren't even remotely "Ice Age Mammals". And it's Uintatherium.
Are not all the creatures in the OP not mammals? Or is the issue "ice-age"? If so, it's just a common term that more people identify with than Cenozoic Era or Pleistocene.
Sure, they're mammals, but several are from the Tertiary (or Palaeogene and early Neogene). And "Ice Age" as synonyme for the whole Cenozoic is just... well, okay, I studied this stuff, sorry.
Yeah, I used to be pretty big into it myself(more into Mesozoic really), but the kickstarter is just for the common layman. This aren't going to be museum quality pieces, and I doubt they're expecting quite a few paleontology buffs(not that I did anything more than very casual study in my free time).
So I sort of forgot to update this. A week to go, funded, more actual sculpts forthcoming. Everything is supposed to be hand sculpted for purposes of this KS.
Every pledge is getting one of these guys now.
And then you also get this guy as well, as long as you're pledging for an actual figure.
Plus when the total hits 7000 they will be including this cave lion sculpt for all pledgers as well.
I believe there will be a third free bird as well.
And here's some more samples of sculpts they are working on.
I'm curious what they're going to do with the Song of Blades and Heroes' designer. They've got him tapped for either their Doggerland game, or the sea monsters thing they're planning on doing in July or August, or some sort of gnome skirmish game, or something with these animals.
The Smilodon or Andrewsarchus are the ones I'm really interested in. I was trying to put together a lion themed SoBH warband as it was, and outside of my giant Mierce Fomorian cat, there aren't a lot of other options I've liked in way of big prehistoric hunting cats.
So over the last week or so, this has seen a lot of action.
Their epic stretch goals were hit, which were for every who pledged over $125. Then they decided to double a bunch of those. Then they added in a pile of figures.
Latest unlocks are the original 8 in the box, cave bear, the cave hyena, the giant ground sloth, a dinofelis, a dire wolf, an archaeotherium, a megistotherium, an embolotherium, a moetherium, a glyptodon, a gigantopithecus, an irish elk, and if things keep going like they are, a paraceratherium (a super huge land animal).
That's a lot of stuff.
This one is still probably a bit of a crap shoot- a lot of stuff for a little bit of money. I know the company is doing this primarily to get their name out their and generate a bit of publicity.
I read the title of this topic "8 figures for 15$" and clicked immediately since that would really be a bargain!
Misleading title however. It should read "1 figure for 15$". Or am I missing something...?
Looks like ADW is starting another KS in July. I'm kinda iffy about new companies that start a KS soon after their first one, and have enough miniatures as it is. I didn't like a few things about their presentation during their KS, I couldn't find enough information about the people behind the project to back the project, but I've been wrong before.
ADW Games and Game Designer Andrea Sfiligoi announce that they are bringing “Band of Gnomes”, a non-lethal miniature skirmish game full of fast-paced trickery, illusion, summoning, entrapment, odd magic, queer terrain, golems and elementals, to Kickstarter on July 21, 2014.
Rules for “Band of Gnomes” are being written by Andrea Sfiligoi, the Award-winning game designer behind Songs of Blades and Heroes, Of Gods And Mortals and Fistful of Kung Fu.
“We have chosen this as out next project because it is unique in format and does not compete with anything on the market,” says S.E. Lantry, the primary writer for ADW Games. “Plus, we have a lot of cool, surprising expansions already mapped out.”
Band of Gnomes will be set in ADW’s fantasy version of Doggerland, based on the lost landmass in the North Sea that joined Great Britain and Europe, during and after the last Ice Age.
Band of Gnomes will include rules for Ice Age Mammals miniatures in the Band of Gnomes Core Rule Book. The Core Set will include two Gnome factions, The Lighted Forest and The UnderMountain, and will include rules for terrain and Band of Gnomes battlemap-based games (Terrain and Battlemaps sold separately).
The company said they ran this KS as a bit of a loss leader, to get their name out their, all that jazz.
I agree, it was a crazy ridiculously good deal, far too good to be true.
I didn't put in for much, so we'll see what delivers in the end. The fact that a large portion of sculpts were never shown doesn't fill me with much confidence either.
I hope they find an audience for their Gnomes game. Not a fan of gnomes myself, but I do certainly love Sfiligoi's rulesets.
MIght want to contact one of the sculptors for the Ice Age campaign for their thoughts on ACW. I wrote to AS and he said he's not being paid upfront for his work, but from royalties et al. from the KS etc.
Fenris Games did the same for Cthulhu Wars, paying for the sculpting up front with Green Eye Games who ran the KS paying them off once the KS money came in
If the KS had gone badly they'd have had problems, but they believed in the project and were willing to take that chance
(but as with all things KS every potential backer has to decide how much 'risk' they are willing to take)
As I understand it, one of the sculptors for the Ice Age Miniatures got stiffed by ACW, and ACW may be a scam. I've asked the sculptor to post on Dakka about this.
ced1106 wrote: As I understand it, one of the sculptors for the Ice Age Miniatures got stiffed by ACW, and ACW may be a scam. I've asked the sculptor to post on Dakka about this.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Fenris Games did the same for Cthulhu Wars, paying for the sculpting up front with Green Eye Games who ran the KS paying them off once the KS money came in
Yeah, but I wouldn't compare GEG with ADW (or whoever the heck they are). Sandy Petersen *isn't* an established gaming company like CMON, but their KS campaigns and behavior during them didn't make me suspicious like ADW's did. Again, see the Reaper link I posted for more details.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Fenris Games did the same for Cthulhu Wars, paying for the sculpting up front with Green Eye Games who ran the KS paying them off once the KS money came in
Yeah, but I wouldn't compare GEG with ADW (or whoever the heck they are). Sandy Petersen *isn't* an established gaming company like CMON, but their KS campaigns and behavior during them didn't make me suspicious like ADW's did. Again, see the Reaper link I posted for more details.
Which has no info other than that the sculptor who did work for them before, doesn't do work for them now?
Whoopie Fething Doo.
There were also these two threads concerning the Ice Age Mammals KS, I don't know if that was what ced1106 meant to refer to. The first one got locked down and was heavily moderated and purged, though, so I'm not sure how much information it still contains.
I was highly skeptical of the Ice Age Mammals campaign when it was running, and I was really scratching my head at this ADW company. Since this discussion took place on the Reaper forums, the project creator seemed to think the critique was coming from a well established company who didn't want an upstart competitor to succeed (Reaper were in no way involved, other than stepping in to moderate that thread when it got out of hand). It was a strange discussion.
Hmm, I don't really have time to look into all that at the moment... but regardless, backing a SECOND campaign from this company less than a month after their first campaign ended? Wayyyyy too risky.
I still can't believe the prices listed here. The top pledge level is "Any 110 minis you want" for $500. What if someone selected 110 mammoths? They seriously can sell those for less than $5 each?
So far, I have yet to be scammed on Kickstarter (someone intentionally taking my money and not delivering) or even really been a part of anything that hasn't delivered or is in the process of delivering most of what they set out to do. But part of that is not backing campaigns that get in way over their heads... and promising massive models for under $5 is what I would call doing just that. No matter their intentions, that just sounds way too good to be true! Even as a loss leader.
Cyporiean wrote: Which has no info other than that the sculptor who did work for them before, doesn't do work for them now?
Whoopie Fething Doo.
Contact the sculptor directly. He doesn't work for them because he did sculpts for them for the Ice Age KS and was not paid for his work.
And. as RiTides and Trodax suggest, there're a few other behaviors on ADW's part that may be concerning. Such as, can you tell me how much actual miniatures project experience the ADW team has? Or who's even on their staff? No, the game designer and sculptors don't count.
Myself, I don't differentiate between a scammer and someone who incompetently runs a project and doesn't deliver satisfactory product. You lose your money either way.
And when it's my money that can get involved, I certainly give a fething doo! $$$
(Oh, and it probably doesn't help that stuff like this, Defiance Games, etc. doesn't help the category of small miniatures companies using KS.)
RiTides wrote: and promising massive models for under $5 is what I would call doing just that.
Is this the Mammoth you're talking about?
Spoiler:
It honestly doesn't look to be that big... Assuming the mold is made right, and it pours well, casts 100% of the time.. I could see it being under $5 worth of materials for Resin. Now that doesn't factor in labor or profit, but it'd be do able. You'd just need it be do done by someone who doesn't want to factor in those things...
Now there is a lot of bs on the KS page for sure... like the 'we don't use lead' lines, and this gem:
Spoiler:
Is this a woman run KS? Yes. This is a Project started by a woman, and the lead Sculptor is a woman. We are animal-friendly and we are women-in-gaming and women-in-business friendly. Messages that are hate-based, bullying or asking us to leave the business of making miniatures because we are women will be reported to KS immediately. And, to address such practices, and threats, which have occured by members of the KS, and the BigDaddy miniature and game community, we are organizing a "Play Fair" open letter with members of the world gaming community to address this very issue. Games are supposed to be fun. We do not tolerate hate, and neither should any member of the KS or game community.
This honestly speaks volumes about their lack of experience in the Tabletop Games industry... while there is a lot of sexism in the Video Games Industry, Tabletop is much much better about it.
Such as, can you tell me how much actual miniatures project experience the ADW team has? Or who's even on their staff? No, the game designer and sculptors don't count.
Which companies can *you* answer those questions about?
In my eyes, it wasn't any worse than that Artistic Justice's Fairy Tale Battle Royale, which for a measly 65 dollars you supposedly got 2000+ cards across 3 or 4 base games PLUS 40 28/35mm scale figures. With shipping included.
Of course we haven't actually seen that fulfilled, but progress does seem to slowly truck on (and they did say during the campaign that the sheer amount of unlocks was going to delay the game a HUGE amount).
We'll see how things go from here. Over the course of the day they've shown off some SUPER early sculpts, yet again not bothering to get a ruler in there. Or even lay one down in the photo.
I think these WIPs are a little too early to unleash on the world...
Spoiler:
Hopefully we will see something a bit more substantial as time progresses.
I shall continue to keep Dakka posted on how this all unfolds.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: In my eyes, it wasn't any worse than that Artistic Justice's Fairy Tale Battle Royale, which for a measly 65 dollars you supposedly got 2000+ cards across 3 or 4 base games PLUS 40 28/35mm scale figures. With shipping included.
Of course we haven't actually seen that fulfilled, but progress does seem to slowly truck on (and they did say during the campaign that the sheer amount of unlocks was going to delay the game a HUGE amount).
You know what, you're right about that; I was very skeptical and critical about the Fairy Tales KS when it was running too... and I've got to admit what I've seen so far looks pretty promising. Perhaps the Ice Age Mammals will turn out as a positive surprise as well; please do keep us posted!
I'd still advice against backing a second project started a month after the first one ended, though; that's just inviting grief. Two years ago I foolishly backed the Dwarf Gladiators by Eastern Front Studios started right after they ran Low Life, and a couple of months later they started their Midgard campaign. All three of those projects are still unfulfilled.
I wrote directly to both the Fairy Tales KS and Doggerland KS creators. With Fairy Tales, I asked how they could offer so much for so little, and he said their investors were taking a loss on the project. I think had I had more interest in the project, I would have pressed him to tell me more about these investors and what their post-KS business plan was. With Doggerland, I asked a few questions and suggested they should show off their rules. The reply was that they thought someone would steal their IP. If any of you are on BGG, you already know we've had several discussions about this sort of statement. She also said she was unaware of any KS that showed off the rules during their campaigns, and I know of at least one that did (one of the dungeon-themed dice games had *two* PnP games). Again, I would have shown her KS that did this, but I wasn't interested in a 15mm game, so didn't write back. Obviously, this response wasn't the only thing that made me hesitant to back the project.
My error about the designers and sculptors. I mean to say that if a designer or sculptor is not part of the management team of a project, their name is not part of my decision to back a crowdfunded project. Contracted sculptors and game designers often do work before getting paid, and can get the short end of a crowdfunded project. See: Doom that Came to Atlantic City and Ice Age Miniatures.
Finally, if you miss out on a terrific fantastic can't-miss must-have bargain on KS, another terrific fantastic can't-miss must-have bargain will be available soon enough. Any idea what I can do with 69 28mm doors?
Latest update has them switching from Sculpey to Castilene.
Slendertroll from the Reaper boards:
This again speaks to their overconfidence, in my opinion. Their original sculpts were in Sculpey, based on what they claim was "poor advice." First of all, to my knowledge, lots of sculptors and casters work with Sculpey, so I'm curious about that claim. Regardless, it seems like bad news that they just now discovered that this medium wasn't suitable for their needs--why didn't they do that research ahead of time?
They also still don't seem to be sure what their products are--Sculpey is commonly used because it holds the fine details needed for boutique miniatures, which they claim they are making. However, Castilene is apparently commonly used in toy prototyping, and I've never heard of a professional mini sculptor using it. Is this just another case of conflating toys and minis, or have they gone back to making children's toys, which they have periodically claimed these were? Is the process they describe as "toy prototyping" equivalent to mini sculpting? I wouldn't think so, but is that just unfamiliarity with the terminology on either of our parts?
Lastly, how can they possibly still be on schedule? It took them a month at least to build up that collection of (pretty quality) Sculpey minis--can they afford to lose that much time in their production schedule, will they have more sculptors working on them, or will they be rushing the new minis?
Frankly, at this point, I will be annoyed if everything works out perfectly for them. I'll feel bad for the backers if it doesn't, but it would frustrate me to no end if their behavior, both here and in their own comment section, was rewarded.
And here's the current Sea Monsters KickTraq chart...
Me too, Alex C. I'm expecting an Amy's Baking Company style meltdown...
I backed the mammals out of curiosity and only at a level that I could afford to spend for that level of entertainment. I was debating writing a response to the update ced1106 posted about, but don't have time.
ETA here's the text of the update:
Spoiler:
Hello All:
We have elected to resculpt the miniatures created in sculpy in Castilene, in order to save steps in creating masters that would need repair, and recasting. Castilene is the standard medium that is used the world over for toy prototyping. The sculpy route was chosen early on based on poor advice. We have corrected the path, at significant personal expense, because we are not going to produce and deliver inferior product.
Castilene has been ordered. We have spoken, at length to our casting consultant and to the manufacturer of Castilene.
The amount of time required (40-60 hours) for casting has not changed. The time required to resculpt will be around the same amount of time. So: most importantly- we are still on schedule.
Castilene sculpts will be posted as they are completed.
So: as the saying goes we request that everyone stay calm and carry on. We are making these decisions for the betterment of the project and the end result of same.
Regards,
Lars
Off the top of my head, I'm wondering...
- What was it about the miniatures that made them unacceptable?
- Does the 40 - 60 hours of time to cast include all miniatures? Or is that per mini?
- Does the 40 - 60 hours of casting time include process development, such as mold creation, including vent and feed placement, miniature cutting if necessary, and determining resin mix and cure times? How long is it expected that the process development will take?
Like I said, I'd post it just to see how combative, rude, and unprofessional that makes me, but don't have time to watch the meltdown!
If they are now resculpting everything they had done (including the sculpts they had that looked alright), but this time using the sculptor that's been doing their later work, then yeah, this does look like a train wreck. I bet a lot of people pledged for those sculpts they have on the KS main page (the mammoth, cave lion, terror bird; those are alright I think); if they will now be replaced with stuff sculpted like the Sea Bishop I can't see a lot of smiling happening.
And their currently ongoing KS, the Sea Monsters, seems to be in limbo. That's the campaign where they promised to automatically cancel if they didn't manage to produce all the sculpts before it ends. So much drama!
Gymnogyps, thank you for mentioning Amy's Baking Company, I was trying to figure out who Dina from ADW reminded me of and you hit the nail on the head!
And I don't mean that to sound like some sort of anti-women hate-speech, the exclamation point doesn't mean I'm shouting, and the capitalization is for grammatical correctness rather than indicating any sort of anger...
I realize during this time of transition in our Company - wherein we are changing sculptors and production methods- we have not been very attentive to this Campaign. We apologize.
We will be giving everyone who has Pledged, more than a single $, a single set of mushroom terrain and a single sea monster of your choice- in either Epic size (20-40') or Monster size (6-9') free of charge in October.
We will keep the KS running so we can run the survey upon completion and know where to send your freebies.
We are on schedule to deliver all of the minis in mid-October, btw. So, if you have Pledged. Never fear. We are on track, just swamped with internal changes at the end of the summer.
All the Best,
Lars
So, despite this KS being nowhere near funding and unlikely to fund, they will still have the capability to send freebies to backers?
I guess right now, if you want any of this stuff, you could pledge and hope it doesn't fund at which point you would be out $0 and get a mini and some scenery.
Alex C wrote: So, despite this KS being nowhere near funding and unlikely to fund, they will still have the capability to send freebies to backers?
Many first-time KS projects are losses. Even on Reaper's 3.4M Bones I, they made only 50K of "profit", which went directly back into the company (eg. for the injection mold machine).
The only other project I could find from ADW is its Evergreen Entertainment / Aquaplus alias reality show proposal for musicians. A KickStarter realilty show?
Alex C wrote: So, despite this KS being nowhere near funding and unlikely to fund, they will still have the capability to send freebies to backers?
Many first-time KS projects are losses. Even on Reaper's 3.4M Bones I, they made only 50K of "profit", which went directly back into the company (eg. for the injection mold machine).
The only other project I could find from ADW is its Evergreen Entertainment / Aquaplus alias reality show proposal for musicians. A KickStarter realilty show?
ADW's kickstarters are better than most reality shows I've seen...
Wait...
Are all these project fails actually some sort of reality show?
Feels like I need a Keanu Meme...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's a fun comment on Ice Age Mammals:
Quick survey: with our casting pro on-hand now, we have been asked the question: why not tin alloy for the basic eight + the birds?
Thoughts?
Answer: Because pledgers paid for resin?
So they've gone from hand-sculpted minis cast in resin to CAD minis with an eye to using tin.
I'd seriously be asking for a refund if I'd have pledged on this. They're not delivering the product they advertised.
Oh, it keeps getting better. Now they're saying several of the minis shown on the front page were sculpted in the "wrong scale", so Lord knows what you'll end up with if they actually deliver...
This is like one of those gifts that just keeps on giving!
Not only am I going to suck it up and take one for the team, but I'll go the distance, and PAINT whatever bulbous, play doh- like monstrosity they end up sending me!
For anyone who enjoys popcorn, the Reaper boards are doing a little searching on ADW past projects (book publishing, furniture, acting, and a reality show...).
I guess my money was well spent for the enjoyment this has brought about.
That Reaper thread is CRAY ZAY.
ADW... DAW... Dina Andrews Walker? Maybe this is all some elaborate Usual Suspects type deal and she's gone all Keyser Soze on us.
I'm starting to imagine this is all some sort of elaborate deomnic trap, that if solved, will send all sorts of nasty creatures after us for digging to deep into their rabbit hole.
I honestly can't believe that people are backing the Sea Monsters. It started out with the premise "sure, we are starting a new campaign while our previous Ice Age Mammals KS ending just two months ago are still undelivered, but here's the thing: if we haven't produced all the sculpts before this one ends, we promise to automatically cancel." But then they had a falling out with the sculptors, and so changed the whole thing to a freebie bonanza instead, under the banner "We are building the company by giving away miniatures". As I see it, they pretty much already did that with the Ice Age Mammals; I think it funded pretty much because of all the freebies they threw in (which they still have not delivered, or even sculpted). I've got to wonder, If they start another campaign with "freebies galore!" in two months, will people still be jumping on it?
If I'm reading things right, a $15 pledge now gets you 10 pieces of furniture, 10 big fungus minis, 3 giant crabs, 2 giant slugs, a giant waterbug and some maggots. What is it they say, if a deal sounds too good to be true... But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they actually have a big successful company behind this that can afford to pump money into the project in order to build goodwill. Maybe they will deliver all these fantastic miniatures into the hands of some very pleased backers. Maybe the whole gaming community has up until now been ripped off by miniature companies, because "it really isn't that expensive to produce these toys". Maybe I'm Cthulhu.
I guess the sculpting has improved slightly compared to the lumps of clay we've previously seen, I'll give them that; at least there is some kind of rudimentary form to the porcine whale and whatnot that's up on the main page.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh, I see now that the original Ice Age Mammals thread on the Reaper forum is again publicly viewable. Rereading it, it actually wasn't as bad as I had remembered, but they did display their arrogance pretty openly. I started getting skeptical about the whole KS on page 2 of that thread, and the Doggerland person (some guy named Scott) entered the discussion on page 4:
Also, if you want to see arrogant talk, go to the FAQ section at the bottom of the Ice Age Mammals KS main page. Reading through that makes me question my sanity when I'm at the same time staring at some of the sculpts they later displayed. Here's a little tidbit to whet your appetite:
So, yes. We respect our product We respect our work. We choose to aim high and stand behind our aim. And, boxes, rule cards, concept art, postcards, character sheets, they should all reflect a certain standard. We are mad. About quality and not letting adult, mature gamers down.
If you are looking for barely servicable, cheap, 7th generation replicas of used-up ideas, this is not the miniature line for you. We respect the intelligence of people that like to Play Fair and include play as part of their emotionally mature and creatively expanded lives. We are here to provide entertainment for that audience.
Glad to see the thread viewable again. It's not *that* uncivil, certainly better behaved than BGG and Dakka!
No luck finding info on Scott Lantry, since it's a common name and I didn't look *that* hard. Did he or ADW ever explain why they went into miniatures? Scott's postings seemed to say they selected miniatures less because the usual desire to see one of their creations in existence than because they though sculpting and casting miniatures was a simple task. Given their range of previous artistic projects (not that know how well they did with them) surely they could have done a KS in something they already knew. Certainly something like making a 28mm battlemap would be easier than miniatures, given (assuming?) their background in graphic design, although their lack of concept art in the sea monsters KS may be showing otherwise.
And did Lars ever reveal his last name? I though either he or Scott was Dina Andrew's husband. They and the fired part-timer all seem to behave the similarly -- more confident in the project than knowledgeable in it and/or defensive towards their backers and internet community.
I'd be very wary about handing over personal information to these people.
Tread carefully friends.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They're now trying to say that all the bad press is from established miniature companies bashing them because they are scared of the competition ADW brings...
To my knowledge, no miniatures company has taken any stance toward them, good or bad. Am I wrong?
Alex C wrote: They're now trying to say that all the bad press is from established miniature companies bashing them because they are scared of the competition ADW brings...
To my knowledge, no miniatures company has taken any stance toward them, good or bad. Am I wrong?
Possibly due to the Reaper threads? It's like people getting on here and saying "dakka" this and "dakka" that. Somehow anyone who posts on a message board suddenly becomes a mouthpiece for the entire community/company.
Yes, but to my knowledge nobody that works for Reaper ever made any comment, right?
Unless they think every forum member is a Reaper employee, which I can't say would really surprise me considering how little they seem to know about the gaming world...
Alex C wrote: Yes, but to my knowledge nobody that works for Reaper ever made any comment, right?
Unless they think every forum member is a Reaper employee, which I can't say would really surprise me considering how little they seem to know about the gaming world...
I would think that they are aware of it, the same as people who post here and make the same general, sweeping statements about "dakka." It sounds a lot better to say the industry is against you than saying, "A few forum posters don't like us."
It's quite bewildering that people keeps funding the kickstarters from these people.
It looks quite obvious that they are in way over their heads (if not completely looking to scam people outright).
Even if one disregards their their very questionable, aggressive and arrogant communication the whole premise of having a kickstarter in the first place seems inconsistent.
If the whole kickstarter model for them is just a big loss leader with tons of freebies and just made to get their name out there while the actual financial backing comes from other sources, why not produce the models and sell them at a initial artificially low price?
It's already obvious that they will not be able to back up their lofty claim from their first kickstarter and they just keep piling on freebies to new campaigns while still not really showing any progress.
EDIT:
Also it seems any critisism are met with some delusional rants about misogyny in gaming culture that have nothing to do with the actual issue at hand. While said misogyny might well be a real issue in gaming culture, the criticism against this company certainly have very little to do with the fact that some of it's representatives are women. They sure seems to have a rather warped view of their customers and think every other miniature company is out to get them due to sexism or something.
Lars wrote:While your comments and the comments on the various boards certainly fit into the current zeitgeist of harassing "outsiders", it will not effect our ability and commitment to produce intelligent and interesting miniatures.
Lars wrote:I have not read a single post on any board. As mentioned, I am focused on solutions and deadlines, John.
So if he has not read any post on any board, how can he comment on what those posts reflect?
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy.
Well, as a boardgamer, I asked for them to show their rules during their first KS. Here's the response I got:
"Re: rules. I can't think of one KS that has provided rules before printing. I think we have addressed "why" we do not release everything before the first manufacturing run in a previous comment-post, as well. It is just a dog-eat-dog world regarding IP of this sort. The vet on this one is about the art and the world. If you believe in our story, we will deliver. If you want to see the rules, we have a podcast from our designer launching tomorrow. It is always world-first and rules second with us. There are a lot of games out there that try to impress with new mechanics and have no new ideas. That is not our category."
Alex C wrote: I'd be very wary about handing over personal information to these people.
Ya know anything that we don't?
Because I do -- or rather, pinmini, their previous sculptor, on the Reaper forum does!
EDIT: jchunick said on the DF forums that he asked for a refund for his IAM pledge and hasn't received a reply. But what does *this* mean for Up Front?
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I mentioned in the comments about seeing the work they've got. Lars says people are telling him adamantly not to show anything off. Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy. Odd.
Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a minute...
Spoiler:
Very early WIP sculpts can look like total gak, and often should not be presented to the public.
Of course, by now, they should have a final sculpt or three that would be presentable.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy.
Well, as a boardgamer, I asked for them to show their rules during their first KS. Here's the response I got:
"Re: rules. I can't think of one KS that has provided rules before printing. I think we have addressed "why" we do not release everything before the first manufacturing run in a previous comment-post, as well. It is just a dog-eat-dog world regarding IP of this sort. The vet on this one is about the art and the world. If you believe in our story, we will deliver. If you want to see the rules, we have a podcast from our designer launching tomorrow. It is always world-first and rules second with us. There are a lot of games out there that try to impress with new mechanics and have no new ideas. That is not our category."
Alex C wrote: I'd be very wary about handing over personal information to these people.
Ya know anything that we don't?
Because I do -- or rather, pinmini, their previous sculptor, on the Reaper forum does!
EDIT: jchunick said on the DF forums that he asked for a refund for his IAM pledge and hasn't received a reply. But what does *this* mean for Up Front?
What exactly happened between pin mini and them anyway?
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I mentioned in the comments about seeing the work they've got.
Lars says people are telling him adamantly not to show anything off.
Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy.
Odd.
Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a minute...
Spoiler:
Very early WIP sculpts can look like total gak, and often should not be presented to the public.
Of course, by now, they should have a final sculpt or three that would be presentable.
As long as one can show some finished products that look good, and preferably a series of WIP pictures leading up to that finished sculpt, there shouldn't be much of a problem since then people can see that while early WIPs looks crude, they do morph into good end results. Right?
He was one of the original sculptors on the IAM project, and says he wasn't paid for his work, so he still has the sculpts -- which would explain why ADW isn't or wasn't showing the current IAM sculpts.
He was one of the original sculptors on the IAM project, and says he wasn't paid for his work, so he still has the sculpts -- which would explain why ADW isn't or wasn't showing the current IAM sculpts.
I guess it would also explain why everything they have shown after those original pictures looks like it has been sculpted by a bunch of kindergarten kids.
EDIT:
Actually if that is the case I'm leaning more towards these projects being actual scams rather than just being incompetently run.
Hire a sculptor to produce some actual good sculpts that entice people to back. Wet their appetite wiht promises of loads of cheap/free stuff. Mash out a few half assed sculpts to string people along enough that they back another project that does not have any quality stuff to tease people (Sea creatures KS), say they are WIP's and hope people believe that they will end up the same quality as the first sculpts.
So basicly all that talk about having all their artists "in house" was bullgak? Who the heck are these mythical employees and well treated artists the founders keep talking about then?!?!?!??!
Who are these sculptors they don't give a name to?
I haven't seen a company lie threw it's teeth this much since Defiance games and their failed Kickstarter.
I never even backed this project and I'm outraged by these goons.
I agree with zywuz, this has to have been a scam from the start. They have been double talking and trying to swindle the community from the start. Why else would they be lieing so much, and so combative to words people?
Oh wow. More drama in the comment section I see. They're really playing up the part as this fresh newcomer, who the big, corrupted companies in the miniature industry are trying really hard to stop, aren't they?
ced1106 wrote: Lars is their head sculptor, so I guess that's whom they're referring to as "in house".
No, it doesn't quite add up. Lars seems to be doing the sculpting now, but what they've said is that he was brought onboard at a later date to try to make things run more smoothly (this was after the Ice Age Mammals KS had ended, after some "part-timer" had been a little too aggressive towards a backer's concerns). And what we were told last week was that they now have to redo the sculpting on that KS, because they were "gamed by their freelance sculptors who they had hired online". Basically, they seem to be blaming the failure of the sculpts on these freelancers ("some of the sculpts were in the wrong scale, some were just really bad"). However, when that KS was running (i.e. before Lars), my impression was that they were really boastful of their in-house expertise. For example, this text about why they're doing everything in-house is from the FAQ section of the IAM KS (emphasis mine):
Why do you employ a sculptor full-time? And, what "dirty underbelly" of the miniature manufacturing world are you talking about?
We emply a full-time sculptor, and have transitioned our 3D team to hands-on sculpting. We did this because artist-owned companies maintain the highest artistic standards. There is no more creative force in the world then half a dozen artists trying to outdo the one next to them in friendly, creative competition.
Think Impressionist, Bauhaus, Cubism, Black Mountain College, the Beats, Southern California 70s film culture, the Ashcan school, Abstract Expressionism. etc. etc. etc.
Think early Dragon magazine! Or Dorothy Parker and the Vicious Circle.
Most of us, we, have standards we look up to, and after all this time the world has been making great strides in literature, art, computer, movies, social reform and tabletop gaming, we think it is time to push a little past the expected, and past the easy money made peddling bad product to good people.
So, yes: we invest in employees.
We do not work with freelancers, because they get paid once and their work is gone to them forever. We are still trying to figure that one out. Plus, the development time and communication between team memebers makes ADW a palce where ideas can come together very quickly.
We may work with artists on a specialized limited line in the future, but we will do so under a co-op, or profit sharing model, with open books.
Which touches on another reason small companies, like ADW, or individuals should worry about manufacturers. Remember those stories from the record companies in the 50s-80s where artist could not keep their masters, or their publishing rights?
There are few mini manufacturers that will own the master mould that he/she creates based on an artist's miniature sculpt. So, they have artist and small businesses over a barrel. In any business, there are people that violate basic business ethics. Lots of stories in the world and that is not one we want to particpate with, so be aware before dealiing with any of the big guys out there. They are not all above board and artist-friendly.
Business plan here: we have the best spin-casting equipment and we have a solid, proven sculptor and sculpting team that know how to produce world-class results.
We may set up a side business to help emerging sculptors. Something pro-artist. Where they keep the Masters. Stay tuned for that. And, let us know what you want our artists to think about as we move forward. We are here to provide unrivalled quality and we are here to entertain.
So, basically, they started out boasting of in-house expertise, but when people started complaining about the sculpts they turned around and said it was due to hiring some bad freelance sculptors, which had now been corrected. Of course, because of these unfortunate circumstances, they won't have time to have the sculpts ready before the Sea Monster KS ends tomorrow...
I know they said they have a Mythological Creatures KS planned for later this year, but I would be surprised if anyone heard any more from them after Sea Monsters ends. Things are heating up and it seems like an opportune time for them to take their money and run.
I'm still kinda hoping that there's a massive number of pledge trolls that pull their pledge right before it ends and takes the total beneath funding...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like Lars is fishing for personal info again by promising free toys. He's already done it with another backer, and of course there's the "even if it doesn't fund you'll get free stuff" promise that they made.
"Hey [insert name here], you're cool, I want to give you freebies! Now, if I could just take a few details..."
Alex C wrote: I know they said they have a Mythological Creatures KS planned for later this year, but I would be surprised if anyone heard any more from them after Sea Monsters ends. Things are heating up and it seems like an opportune time for them to take their money and run."
Yea, it's such a weird behavior from them I can't really decide if it's a pure scam or if they are just incompetent and delusional.
Their bizarre and aggressive behavior must have turned quite a number of people away and if they were just scamming shouldn't it be better to have as non confrontational approach as possible?
Trodax wrote: No, it doesn't quite add up. Lars seems to be doing the sculpting now, but what they've said is that he was brought onboard at a later date to try to make things run more smoothly
Yeah, that's what they said.
Did we ever find out Lars' last name or sculpting background? All I've found out is that he works regularly as an engineer. His behavior earlier towards backers was very similar to the part-timer, imo.
No points if you already know who'd tell you that Lars may or may not be Lars!
Ha, I was actually just thinking that these latest comments by Lars ("the big companies are out to get us") are very similar in tone and style to the stuff put down by the guy posting under the Doggerland name in this thread on the Reaper forum (he said his name was Scott Lantry):
And yeah, I've also been feeling a bit skeptical about that "part-timer who went out of line but is no longer with us"... seems to be pretty much the same aggressively defensive stance. Could we in fact be dealing with a one-man operation?
Are we sure that this doesn't come out of Texas and someone per chance called Daniel is involved. This has all the hallmarks of a scam - from changing story to persecution complex.
Seriously though - this is exactly why I don't back KS unless it is from an already established company. Yes, I get that it isn't the purpose of KS etc - but there are now far too many bad run/ fraudulently run campaigns that I don't really bother.
This Lars guy seems rather insistent on doing communications over thr phone rather than in the comments section of the Sea Monster KS
Also, as stated, I am an engineer, not really used to internet communications. So, there is the chance that what you read is not at all how I mean to sound. So: I am open to the more traditional phone call, if you wish to discuss anything about this project.
Will
I have invited you to call me. I am happy to discuss any subject.
Best
Lars
which seems rather backwards, since posting answers in the comments section reaches any backer that may have the same questions and worries.
Is this behavior something that's reminiscent of the infamous Mandelbaum?I never knew about those sordid affairs until they were over.
I have the feeling that the digging has just begun on this so called company. I wouldn't be one bit surprised to find out that this is a single person who has found a great new way to scam gamers.
"We do not work with freelancers, because they get paid once and their work is gone to them forever."
I don' t know what the second part of this sentence is meant to mean.
It also seems to conflict with their heroic stance against the artist crushing 'big guys' (which is a hilarious term to use in the world of miniature gaming).
It strikes me that they realised that freelance artists would have to be paid, whereas if they just push some putty around themselves they can save all that money for maintaining their artist commune...which may or may not be one person.
Funny. I can find absolutely nothing about this company other than what they have published (online not in bookstores), or what has been published about them in the 2 kickstarters.
You would think that a company with as many years of experience as they have would have something out there.
I find it disturbing that they are keeping all their "talented" artists names from being public. Seems to me, someone with that much talent would want to have their names everywhere.
inquisitorlewis wrote: Funny. I can find absolutely nothing about this company other than what they have published (online not in bookstores), or what has been published about them in the 2 kickstarters.
You would think that a company with as many years of experience as they have would have something out there.
I find it disturbing that they are keeping all their "talented" artists names from being public. Seems to me, someone with that much talent would want to have their names everywhere.
Don't forget their comment in the reaper thread that they were "shocked" that no one in the miniature gaming world had ever heard of them and bragging out how apparently they would with many different companies internationally in the past. Never said who these companies were or even what industry they were even working in....
As far as I can tell their is at least 2 people we can confirm are in this "company". Dina Andrews Walker, and who ever this Lars/Doggerland "gentleman" is. Their is a Facebook profile attached to the kickstarter/Dina Andrews Walker with posts to friends/family actively being made. Unless Lars/Doggerland is actually Dina?
Other then that, I doubt they have any "employees" like they claim to have.
I found this quote amusing:
"If you fail at delivering 2,000 minis in 75 calendar days, you are a fraud. there is a work ethic problem, or there is a intent to deceive. It is not the complexity of the process. I have sourced manufacturing and publishing services from vendors all over the world durin my professional life and I never saw excuses like I have seem on KS re: minis and game publishing. It jsut does not happen outside of games for some reason. And, not until the excuses we have all seen on KS Campaigns."
When is their 75 days up?
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
inquisitorlewis wrote: I found this quote amusing:
"If you fail at delivering 2,000 minis in 75 calendar days, you are a fraud. there is a work ethic problem, or there is a intent to deceive. It is not the complexity of the process. I have sourced manufacturing and publishing services from vendors all over the world durin my professional life and I never saw excuses like I have seem on KS re: minis and game publishing. It jsut does not happen outside of games for some reason. And, not until the excuses we have all seen on KS Campaigns."
When is their 75 days up?
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I just did the math. Apparently today.
XD
lmao, that's just perfect. lol
I'd love to see a bunch of people send this quote to them today.
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I surely cannot be the only one thinking this has Mandlebaum written all over it! From the mis-spellings through to avoidance, the circular double talk and the persecution claims.
inquisitorlewis wrote: I found this quote amusing:
"If you fail at delivering 2,000 minis in 75 calendar days, you are a fraud. there is a work ethic problem, or there is a intent to deceive. It is not the complexity of the process. I have sourced manufacturing and publishing services from vendors all over the world durin my professional life and I never saw excuses like I have seem on KS re: minis and game publishing. It jsut does not happen outside of games for some reason. And, not until the excuses we have all seen on KS Campaigns."
When is their 75 days up?
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I just did the math. Apparently today.
XD
lmao, that's just perfect. lol
I'd love to see a bunch of people send this quote to them today.
inquisitorlewis wrote: I found this quote amusing:
"If you fail at delivering 2,000 minis in 75 calendar days, you are a fraud. there is a work ethic problem, or there is a intent to deceive. It is not the complexity of the process. I have sourced manufacturing and publishing services from vendors all over the world durin my professional life and I never saw excuses like I have seem on KS re: minis and game publishing. It jsut does not happen outside of games for some reason. And, not until the excuses we have all seen on KS Campaigns."
When is their 75 days up?
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I just did the math. Apparently today.
XD
lmao, that's just perfect. lol
I'd love to see a bunch of people send this quote to them today.
inquisitorlewis wrote: I found this quote amusing:
"If you fail at delivering 2,000 minis in 75 calendar days, you are a fraud. there is a work ethic problem, or there is a intent to deceive. It is not the complexity of the process. I have sourced manufacturing and publishing services from vendors all over the world durin my professional life and I never saw excuses like I have seem on KS re: minis and game publishing. It jsut does not happen outside of games for some reason. And, not until the excuses we have all seen on KS Campaigns."
When is their 75 days up?
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I just did the math. Apparently today.
XD
lmao, that's just perfect. lol
I'd love to see a bunch of people send this quote to them today.
LOL!
That's awesome...
I am curious how long it is going to take "Lars"to show up here on Dakka with a furious rant. Seems as though they have stepped away from making any comments.
I am going to NYC next week. I am thinking of stopping by the CBS building and checking to see if this company actually exists.
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I surely cannot be the only one thinking this has Mandlebaum written all over it! From the mis-spellings through to avoidance, the circular double talk and the persecution claims.
Is the implication then that Daniel Mandelbaum basically scammed Dina Andrews Walker into being the face for his front?
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I surely cannot be the only one thinking this has Mandlebaum written all over it! From the mis-spellings through to avoidance, the circular double talk and the persecution claims.
Is the implication then that Daniel Mandelbaum basically scammed Dina Andrews Walker into being the face for his front?
Did I say Mandlebaum???
Is there any actual proof that this woman is actually involved with this company? I can't even find any information on this company. If I missed something, please be sure to point it out to me.
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I surely cannot be the only one thinking this has Mandlebaum written all over it! From the mis-spellings through to avoidance, the circular double talk and the persecution claims.
Is the implication then that Daniel Mandelbaum basically scammed Dina Andrews Walker into being the face for his front?
Did I say Mandlebaum???
Is there any actual proof that this woman is actually involved with this company? I can't even find any information on this company. If I missed something, please be sure to point it out to me.
She made a post thanking "crittohit.com" for spreading the word of her kickstarter on June 11.
Edit: I noticed thow that as you go father back, the posts start repeating on her face book page. This may be a glitch thow with face book. Other wise her time line appears to be going back to 2010.
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I surely cannot be the only one thinking this has Mandlebaum written all over it! From the mis-spellings through to avoidance, the circular double talk and the persecution claims.
Is the implication then that Daniel Mandelbaum basically scammed Dina Andrews Walker into being the face for his front?
Did I say Mandlebaum???
Is there any actual proof that this woman is actually involved with this company? I can't even find any information on this company. If I missed something, please be sure to point it out to me.
She made a post thanking "crittohit.com" for spreading the word of her kickstarter on June 11.
Couldn't anyone do that, using any name they wanted?
I am not trying to be a smartass. I just think a lot of people take things at face value, even after numerous red flags pop up everywhere.
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I surely cannot be the only one thinking this has Mandlebaum written all over it! From the mis-spellings through to avoidance, the circular double talk and the persecution claims.
Is the implication then that Daniel Mandelbaum basically scammed Dina Andrews Walker into being the face for his front?
Did I say Mandlebaum???
Is there any actual proof that this woman is actually involved with this company? I can't even find any information on this company. If I missed something, please be sure to point it out to me.
She made a post thanking "crittohit.com" for spreading the word of her kickstarter on June 11.
Couldn't anyone do that, using any name they wanted?
I am not trying to be a smartass. I just think a lot of people take things at face value, even after numerous red flags pop up everywhere.
Her time line goes back to 2010, so unless it's a stolen face book account, she dose seem to be a real person.
I'm not taking anything at face value mind you. I'm just saying to me it looks like as far as we have seen ADW games is at most only two people.
I find the amount of misspellings from this "high level executive" disturbing... and somehow so so familiar.
I surely cannot be the only one thinking this has Mandlebaum written all over it! From the mis-spellings through to avoidance, the circular double talk and the persecution claims.
Is the implication then that Daniel Mandelbaum basically scammed Dina Andrews Walker into being the face for his front?
Did I say Mandlebaum???
Is there any actual proof that this woman is actually involved with this company? I can't even find any information on this company. If I missed something, please be sure to point it out to me.
She made a post thanking "crittohit.com" for spreading the word of her kickstarter on June 11.
Couldn't anyone do that, using any name they wanted?
I am not trying to be a smartass. I just think a lot of people take things at face value, even after numerous red flags pop up everywhere.
Her time line goes back to 2010, so unless it's a stolen face book account, she dose seem to be a real person.
I'm not taking anything at face value mind you. I'm just saying to me it looks like as far as we have seen ADW games is at most only two people.
I guess time will tell. No matter what, it's another name about to be ruined in the gaming industry.
"If you fail at delivering 2,000 minis in 75 calendar days, you are a fraud. there is a work ethic problem, or there is a intent to deceive."
Those are your own words. It's been 75 days since this was funded. Just saying.
Response from the Dina Andrews Walker account, not sure of author:
I 100% agree. the freelancers we hired, who handed in wrong scale minis, or failed to hand in minis at all, did defraud us. We are still moving forward with new investment and new talent. Have to be careful out there.
I agree completely that the parallels with Mandlbehavior are quite interesting. Specifically, the wording, phasing, and tone of "Lars", "Dina" and "Scott" are all very similar and use very similar deflection techniques. I believe this sort of blame shifting, non-answer, confuse the issue response to questions is a very common tactic for people running a scam. However, this is also similar to the behavior shown by the owners of the previously mentioned Amy's Baking Company, which was not a scam, just very insecure people (likely to the point of pathology), taking any question, no matter how benign, as an all out assault personal attack.
So, I am not a sure this project is a scam quite yet, as in deliberately deceptive from the beginning. At this point, I believe this will be dragged out forever, with ADW never actually admitting lack of delivery. I highly doubt we'll see any minis because the project creators are not acknowledging their own arrogance is their biggest shortcoming. You can't fix a problem that doesn't exist!
"If you fail at delivering 2,000 minis in 75 calendar days, you are a fraud. there is a work ethic problem, or there is a intent to deceive."
Those are your own words. It's been 75 days since this was funded. Just saying.
Response from the Dina Andrews Walker account, not sure of author:
I 100% agree. the freelancers we hired, who handed in wrong scale minis, or failed to hand in minis at all, did defraud us. We are still moving forward with new investment and new talent. Have to be careful out there.
Anyone that buys into this BS any further is just asking to be ripped off.
Kickstarter is a shameful business who does nowhere near enough background checking on anyone they deal with. That is the reason I only kickstart projects brought fourth by businesses that are already established in the industry.
I don't think it's a scam. If you look at their previous activities, they've been in book publishing, furniture design, reality shows, acting... not exactly overlapping areas of expertise. Their attitude towards making miniatures as "trivial" and calling them "toys" show me that they don't know what they're doing before they do it. Dilettantish dabblers, if you will. They certainly have the spirit of entrepreneurship, but you need more than that to run a successful business.
I don't think KS needs to vet for scams, because it's not the scams which cause backers to be upset, it's mismanaged expectations and inability to satisfactorily manage a project. KS is not a store, except everyone treats it like one.
inquisitorlewis wrote: Funny. I can find absolutely nothing about this company other than what they have published (online not in bookstores), or what has been published about them in the 2 kickstarters.
You would think that a company with as many years of experience as they have would have something out there.
I find it disturbing that they are keeping all their "talented" artists names from being public. Seems to me, someone with that much talent would want to have their names everywhere.
The money pledged on the Kickstarter evidently goes to a company named Evergreen Entertainment Group LLC, and they have confirmed in the comments that this is the parent company of ADW Games. According to this page it was founded in 2009 and is based in LA (that page also lists a Dina Walker as a member of the company). I'm not sure what they have done, although I found this that links them to a TV company called AQUA+, which is based in NY. They seemed to have been involved in some kind of musical competition show that was supposed to film in Toronto in 2012.
Then there's the link to Food for Thought Productions, who seem to have been involved in some kind of scam in Vancouver back in 2009 (executive producer is a Dina Walker, producer is a Henry Kipling). This article also lists the people involved in Food for Thought. A link between Evergreen Entertainment and Food for Thought can be found through the Resonate Guitar Story Movie (screenplay by Henry Kipling). This page shows PBS warning people for scams, and lists both Evergreen Entertainment and Food for Thought.
The guy posting in the older Reaper thread and calling himself Scott Lantry claimed that ADW Games is a subsidiary of Weaver, Chester & Tweed LLC, a book publishing company. Their website is here and this page lists Dina Andrews Walker as the contact person. They are based in NY, and seem to have been founded in 2013. I'm really not sure what they have done, they say on their webpage that their books "can be found in academic, university, museum bookstores, as well as independent fine art and design book shops worldwide". It does look like there is a Scott Lantry working for Weaver, Chester & Tweed.
I really don't know. If these are outright scam artists, they seem to be reusing their names quite a lot and not hiding their tracks all that skillfully.
From what I see they are 4 hours from funding their sea monsters,dungeon furniture, big beasts, lollipops and anything that might grab your attention and convince you to put money on these people, lol!
I can't realise how all these good people backing this haven't read/heard/sniffed anything strange in this affair! It's been going on for some days, right?
The more I read about this stuff the more I'm getting convinced more and more people will eventually only back KSs from established companies who know their business, maybe to the point that being a total stranger will be meaningless if you ever want to run a succesful campaign.
I mean, if you actually want to raise more than a couple of grand...
Some of their most vocal supporters are prominent and experienced KS backers too. It's baffling. Maybe they have blinders on over their rose-tinted spectacles?
Only backing established companies will certainly be my rule of thumb going forward. I know it's "not what KS is for" but I'm getting less inclined to roll the dice (excuse the pun) on newbies to the industry, either because of fulfillment problems or doubt as to if fulfillment will happen at all.
And yes, KS is a risk, and it is one that I'm feeling less enthusiastic about with every passing day.
Well, I just backed the "formerly known as MegaMiniatures" KS, so I guess there are projects from established companies (or at least casters!) that are certainly projects that wouldn't have been made without backer support (the guy is semi-retired from miniature making, but wants to put out these specific mini's).
From seeing the Zombicide 3 KS, it's apparent to me that new backers are coming to KS all the time. Meanwhile, if someone is unwilling or unable to do a something as simple as a search on a creator or read the hard work others are willing to do for them, it's "out of the gene pool" time. I mean, someone posted a video rant quitting KS because of the Palladium project, which means he somehow missed Palladium's history and/or convinced himself that Ninja Division would be in charge (yeah, like Kevin Siembda would let that happen). No sure what to make of experienced backers funding the ADW folks.
Only irritation I have with KS are the "potato salad" backers, who fund a project fully or reasonably knowing that their funding only encourages projects like these to exist, when more deserving projects (or, gasp, charities) are out there. Of course, some people think our want for more man-dollies which will never be painted is a waste of money. Thankfully, I'm single.
With Stonehaven Miniatures, Impact Miniatures, Stonemaier Games, and now MegaMiniatures, I often rekindle my enthusiasm. Then ADW comes along.
Gymnogyps wrote: However, this is also similar to the behavior shown by the owners of the previously mentioned Amy's Baking Company, which was not a scam, just very insecure people (likely to the point of pathology), taking any question, no matter how benign, as an all out assault personal attack.
The implication with Amy's Baking company, is that it may actually a money laundering scheme. (Not proved, just suspected mind you)
inquisitorlewis wrote: Funny. I can find absolutely nothing about this company other than what they have published (online not in bookstores), or what has been published about them in the 2 kickstarters.
You would think that a company with as many years of experience as they have would have something out there.
I find it disturbing that they are keeping all their "talented" artists names from being public. Seems to me, someone with that much talent would want to have their names everywhere.
The money pledged on the Kickstarter evidently goes to a company named Evergreen Entertainment Group LLC, and they have confirmed in the comments that this is the parent company of ADW Games. According to this page it was founded in 2009 and is based in LA (that page also lists a Dina Walker as a member of the company). I'm not sure what they have done, although I found this that links them to a TV company called AQUA+, which is based in NY. They seemed to have been involved in some kind of musical competition show that was supposed to film in Toronto in 2012.
Then there's the link to Food for Thought Productions, who seem to have been involved in some kind of scam in Vancouver back in 2009 (executive producer is a Dina Walker, producer is a Henry Kipling). This article also lists the people involved in Food for Thought. A link between Evergreen Entertainment and Food for Thought can be found through the Resonate Guitar Story Movie (screenplay by Henry Kipling). This page shows PBS warning people for scams, and lists both Evergreen Entertainment and Food for Thought.
The guy posting in the older Reaper thread and calling himself Scott Lantry claimed that ADW Games is a subsidiary of Weaver, Chester & Tweed LLC, a book publishing company. Their website is here and this page lists Dina Andrews Walker as the contact person. They are based in NY, and seem to have been founded in 2013. I'm really not sure what they have done, they say on their webpage that their books "can be found in academic, university, museum bookstores, as well as independent fine art and design book shops worldwide". It does look like there is a Scott Lantry working for Weaver, Chester & Tweed.
I really don't know. If these are outright scam artists, they seem to be reusing their names quite a lot and not hiding their tracks all that skillfully.
Thanks for summing everything up so well. I eventually stumbled on all these things last evening as I read further.
Gymnogyps wrote:
Off the top of my head, I'm wondering...
- What was it about the miniatures that made them unacceptable?
The sculpting...?
Alex C wrote:Gymnogyps, thank you for mentioning Amy's Baking Company, I was trying to figure out who Dina from ADW reminded me of and you hit the nail on the head!
I had to google that. Yikes.
And I don't mean that to sound like some sort of anti-women hate-speech
No... she's not a flaky nut because she's a woman, she's a flaky nut because she's a flaky nut. (Or a scammer, as the case might be)
highlord tamburlaine wrote:I always thought most mini sculpts were done in Sculpey.
As mentioned, most are done in putty or some stronger polymer clay. Super Sculpey (the translucent pink stuff they used) is widely known and widely available, but it's notoriously brittle after baking. That was one of the first warning signs I saw as to the inexperience of these people. (besides the gak-awful sculpts and designs) That they were given 'bad advice' about it (implying they knew nothing about it) and switched to castilene only confirms that. Though... while castilene is a pro-quality product, and used by FW among others, I'm not entirely sure if it'd solve most of their inexperience problems. Being a kind of hardened wax consistency, I'd guess it needs it's own learning curve.
I'd love to know just what set of circumstances led them to the conclusion that sculpey was 'bad advice'.
Alex C wrote:
Oh, it keeps getting better. Now they're saying several of the minis shown on the front page were sculpted in the "wrong scale", so Lord knows what you'll end up with if they actually deliver...
Strewth.
Alex C wrote:Some of their most vocal supporters are prominent and experienced KS backers too. It's baffling.
Given how much money individual and collective gamers regularly fling at Kickstarters, including Defiance, I'm gonna say that 'experienced KS backer' implies no more nous and insight than 'experienced rube' or 'experienced village idiot'.
The rest of this topic causes me to shoot back and forth between astonishment* and schadenfreude. Now, I'm off to look at some Reaper forum topics.
*Though not so much surprise that this thing would collapse so readily. I got an inkling of that at the start.
Trodax wrote: The money pledged on the Kickstarter evidently goes to a company named Evergreen Entertainment Group LLC, and they have confirmed in the comments that this is the parent company of ADW Games.
...
Then there's the link to Food for Thought Productions, who seem to have been involved in some kind of scam in Vancouver back in 2009 (executive producer is a Dina Walker, producer is a Henry Kipling). This article also lists the people involved in Food for Thought. A link between Evergreen Entertainment and Food for Thought can be found through the Resonate Guitar Story Movie (screenplay by Henry Kipling). This page shows PBS warning people for scams, and lists both Evergreen Entertainment and Food for Thought.
Whoa. That's pretty damning, isn't it? If two companies you are connected to are listed by PBS are being scams... that's pretty blatant... and it seems the main company had a similar MO of trying to restore their credibility rather than going away / hiding who they were.
If anyone backs these guys they're just crazy
-------------
I just reported the project to Kickstarter with this text- if others want to do so, there is only 100 minutes left to try to catch it before it funds!
Dina Andrews Walker wrote:Hello Gentlemen
The timeline has been given several times.
As mentioned at least ten times, we rejected some bad sculpts, we had some bad hires, we rehired and are "fixing" sculpts with Casteline. The Casteline has not arrived in the studio. Once it does, we are maybe 40-60 hours away from completion of the sculpts. This has been explained several times. There is only one source for the wax. So, we wait until it arrives and set to work.
If you would like to see the 30+ sculpy armatures that are waiting, I can do that. However, everytime I do show a piece that is not finished there is an uproar. And, I would prefer not to show the pieces I rejected from freelancers, because there will be uproar.
I called about the wax yesterday and could only leave a message.
So the reiterate: 40-60 hours after the wax has been delivered for sculpting fixes. Not a single thing has changed re: to that.
If you are looking for sculpy armatures and ugly pieces that require fixing, please get a consensus from the 239 Pledgers that that is what you need to feel comfortable, because I have 30-40 emails saying "don't show works in progress!!!!!" And, they are all very adamant in their statements re: same.
Finally, try to email me directly or call me if you are feeling panic, or want to compare my efforts or story to some person unknown to me. I am a responsible professional adult and am happy to communicate in direct, responsible and mature business email or phone call at any regular business hour.
So there are 30+ sculpts now that's too hideous to show. But as soon as the Casteline arrives, these 30+ sculpts will go from too bad to be shown to fully finished in 40-60 hours; less than 2 hours per miniature. That's an impressive time frame to go from "unshowable" to fully finished.
Again this insistence of direct communication opposed to public. I suppose in order to have as little criticism as possible be showing so people don't get scared away from the sea monsters at the last moment.
If possible, try to report the new project to kickstarter at the link I posted above. They might not need to catch it before it funds- they might be able to refund the backers in the 2-week period before the funds get transferred from them to the creator. But, I think it'd be best if they caught it before it funds, which is in under 1.5 hours...
RiTides wrote: If possible, try to report the new project to kickstarter at the link I posted above. They might not need to catch it before it funds- they might be able to refund the backers in the 2-week period before the funds get transferred from them to the creator. But, I think it'd be best if they caught it before it funds, which is in under 1.5 hours...
Eh, I've yet to see that actually work when it comes to obvious scams on Kickstarter.
You need to start a crusade against a project to get it closed.
A main obstacle to having KS take action here is that ADW don't really obviously break any rules for the sea monsters KS.
For the Ica Age Mammals you could argue that they have been misleading people and misrepresenting facts by lying about freelancers and by not being able to provide the few good sculpts that they showed in the beginning (since they alledgedly haven't paid the sculptor and will have to let Lars ham out something hideous instead).
For the Sea Monsters KS, they haven't really made any promises to produce anything that doesn't look like crap. People has just pledged anyway for some reason (probably lured by promises of piles upon piles of miniatures).
Automatically Appended Next Post: O well, the Sea Monsters kickstarter is finished. May god have mercy on the backers...
I read through the comments on the Sea monster campain and apparently some time in the middle people got tired of them never showing any scuplts and being silent for over a week.
Then ADW come back and start posting other peoples 2d pictures and a blob of tinfoil, and people start funding again!
They haven't shown a single finished sculpt apart from those models from the Ice Age campaign (like the terrorbird) which seems to be sculpted by someone not on board on the project and people just kept on funding!
It's disturbing and amazing that the Sea Monster campaign got funded, and at 4500$ none the less!
Oh well, people will pledge on Potato Salad, I guess it was inevitable that this pile of gak got funded.
I see Lars is basically admitting that the IAM scale issue will result in smaller minis, and also that their option for "tin" miniatures was because that's what museums wanted. Really? Never seen a tin toy animal in a museum. Usually it's some form of plastic or rubber.
They are also supposedly coming back in November with a Carnival/Mythological kickstarter. Oh boy...
Since they're probably paying living expenses with this, it makes sense that they'd try again in a few months. I doubt that one will succeed, though, unless it's like a $1000 goal and achieved by friends backing it... this one is already 5x less than their previous total.
So here's Lars' comment ten hours ago about the freelancers from the Sea Monsters KS:
To be precise, the company initially hired several sculptors on contract, and on probationary terms. As reported, these were hires before I came aboard, and they were bad hires. The details (theft, fraud, breach, non-performance) have been outlined previously, and I will not go into those here. Bad hires did cost time, money and some ill-feelings with Pledgers. The company got in new investment and hired afresh, and I am putting more hours into the projects, as Fall/Winter are slower times in my primary industry (marine engineering consulting).
Many decisions were made before I came aboard based on one sculptor/consultant who later turned out to have have been misrepresenting their ability and knowledge to the company to get hired. Again, details have been discussed previously.
My two bits about companies and managing projects is that it's the manager's responsibility to hire the right employees. Sure, Kevin Siembda's employee stole 1M of assets from Palladium, but he was Kevin's hire and Kevin's close friend. Employees are a reflection of your company, and are the first contact your customers have with it. I see pros and cons of managers who have technical expertise in their fields, but I certainly see a pro in that a manager who has expertise can test applicants for knowledge in the field. Before Lars, ADW did not have such management expertise so did not hire the right people. Alternately, ADW *thought* they knew what they were doing, and the right people could not work with *them*. Considering how many wrong hires ADW had before Lars, I think this is the case. One bad hire is a mistake, several is a pattern. One question I had with the Robotech KS was "how the !@#$@ could Harmony Gold let Palladium keep the gaming rights to Robotech?" This led me to do some searching on Harmony Gold, and I had a pretty good answer. Fans of Robotech are upset with Harmony Gold as well. If great minds think alike, similar management styles end up in the same company. So that would explain how Lars behavior on the ADW KS is so similar to that of DAW or whoever else was answering the comments. (Of course, the other explanation is that he's the same person.)
It may be more than $17, but I'll throw my $30 at the KS of the guy who owned MegaMiniatures. He's only one guy, he knows how to run a miniatures project, he makes his own miniature molds, he casts them, too -- and I think his project is well within the spirit of crowdfunding.
So I see it got funded as expected yesterday. It will certainly be interesting to follow how this works out in the months to come; I'm still not sure if I think it will turn out to be an outright scam that never had any intent to deliver a product, or just some kind of semi-dishonest venture into the world of miniature making where they will actually be coming out with models, probably of a much lower quality than their backers are hoping for. But I do believe it will be one of the two, and I'm honestly leaning towards outright scam. At the very least, I find it hard to believe that everything they've said is true; that they have this big, multi-talented team that will be churning out world class sculpts at a never before seen pace.
But some of their backers certainly seem really enthusiastic, Or as one of them said yesterday:
I predict that there are going to be 134 very excited people in about 2-3 months time. And some very loyal customers to one of the greatest mini sculpting teams in the business.
It may be more than $17, but I'll throw my $30 at the KS of the guy who owned MegaMiniatures. He's only one guy, he knows how to run a miniatures project, he makes his own miniature molds, he casts them, too -- and I think his project is well within the spirit of crowdfunding.
Johnny has had a great name in the industry for many years. Unlike this company (ADW) that can't even site any experience.
It may be more than $17, but I'll throw my $30 at the KS of the guy who owned MegaMiniatures. He's only one guy, he knows how to run a miniatures project, he makes his own miniature molds, he casts them, too -- and I think his project is well within the spirit of crowdfunding.
Johnny has had a great name in the industry for many years. Unlike this company (ADW) that can't even site any experience.
What are you talking about? They have YEARS of experience in marketing for unnamed companies.... Don't you realize how shocked they were that people didn't know who they were? That their main company is listed on PBS as being related to scams....
I don't think they want us to know who they are at this point, despite how much boasting that we should. It's all just so shady.
T-Shirt! This is the level if you just want the high-quality Saber-Tooth Tiger T.
Estimated delivery: Sep 2014
Add $10 USD to ship outside the US
Wonder if 3 backers got their Ts.
I'm sure they're will be some sort of excuse why they couldn't even come up with that. Maybe the shipping container with all 3 tshirts in them were lost at sea.
To No Island Media: you owe Goldmines Film in Beijing a fee for the footage we shot for you, on good faith. You received the tapes from us more than a month ago and now do not respond to our requests for payment. Please contact before December 17 to avoid further action on our part.
T-Shirt! This is the level if you just want the high-quality Saber-Tooth Tiger T.
Estimated delivery: Sep 2014
Add $10 USD to ship outside the US
Wonder if 3 backers got their Ts.
I'm sure they're will be some sort of excuse why they couldn't even come up with that. Maybe the shipping container with all 3 tshirts in them were lost at sea.
ced1106 wrote: I can't find the discussion. Do you mean the Comments field? Do you think it was just deleted? Maybe ADW is treading this thread, after all!
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Announcement: No Island Media debt and copyright notice
Posted by Jeremy Goldkorn, December 18, 2006 09:59 AM
Film industry people beware!
No Island Media is a Canadian film company that specializes in documentaries about music and guitars. This company hired your correspondent's company Goldmines Film in November 2006 to shoot for a day at a musical instrument factory in China.
After completing the shoot and sending the tapes to No Island Media, they acknowledged receipt of the materials but did not pay as originally agreed — in their words "when we have received the tapes". They stopped answering emails and phone calls. When they resumed communication, they said there was an approval process and that we would not be paid until the footage had been approved. Sometime after that, they stopped all communication with Goldmines.
Lawyer's letters sent to No Island Media's stated address were returned undelivered.
No Island Media website is here. The people who communicated with Goldmines go by the names Dina Walker, Dani Cohen and Barry Rothman.
This announcement is a record of the payment failure, and a public notice that all copyrights of the completed footage are retained by Goldmines cameraman Luke Mines until such a time as payment has been completed. "
If this is true, I'd say their Kickstarters are not genuine but you know.
ced1106 wrote: I can't find the discussion. Do you mean the Comments field? Do you think it was just deleted? Maybe ADW is treading this thread, after all!
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Announcement: No Island Media debt and copyright notice
Posted by Jeremy Goldkorn, December 18, 2006 09:59 AM
Film industry people beware!
No Island Media is a Canadian film company that specializes in documentaries about music and guitars. This company hired your correspondent's company Goldmines Film in November 2006 to shoot for a day at a musical instrument factory in China.
After completing the shoot and sending the tapes to No Island Media, they acknowledged receipt of the materials but did not pay as originally agreed — in their words "when we have received the tapes". They stopped answering emails and phone calls. When they resumed communication, they said there was an approval process and that we would not be paid until the footage had been approved. Sometime after that, they stopped all communication with Goldmines.
Lawyer's letters sent to No Island Media's stated address were returned undelivered.
No Island Media website is here. The people who communicated with Goldmines go by the names Dina Walker, Dani Cohen and Barry Rothman.
This announcement is a record of the payment failure, and a public notice that all copyrights of the completed footage are retained by Goldmines cameraman Luke Mines until such a time as payment has been completed. "
If this is true, I'd say their Kickstarters are not genuine but you know.
I redigested the info and did a little additional searching, then posted the results on the Reaper forums, where we're doing some tracking down as well. Thanks for finally helping me find out who this Lars person is!!!
"ADW is, as stated on the website, a subsidiary of Weaver, Chester & Tweed, LLC, a bespoke book publishing company and exclusive publisher for the Moog Archives. Both are privately-held concerns. And, decisions are, yes, made by a Board of Directors." -Scott Larson
I haven't managed to find one single lick of information tying them to NYC as they claim. They are not registered for business in NY, and have no NY address.
At this point, I would not be surprised if they were running other crowd funding under other names and non-existing projects...
Probably Lars is running miniature KSes while Dina is pulling in money from other crowd funding.
I am totally convinced with what Lovejoy on Reaper Forum said :
"I would just remind you that in the Ice Age KS a lot of the offensive, vitriolic comments were signed Lars... He's not some troubleshooter who's been brought in, he was there from day one, messing things up and talking big along with the rest"
I believe who ever did the interview with Andrea Sfiligoi must be Lars.
If you listen to the voice behind IAM KS and Sea Monster KS videos, you can tell they are same. And I think Scott Lantry and Lars are same person as Ced1106 has mentioned.
My wife did a bit of digging and found a possible link to a "WBA Productions" out of Toronto. Associated names include Dina Walker, Lars Sunderflyrr, Henry Kipling, Trevor Andrews, Allen Romanasky and Earl Elliot. Info gleaned from Worldcat.com (library catalogue database).
Also there's Youtube videos for the No Island Media company...
Goblini wrote: At this point, I would not be surprised if they were running other crowd funding under other names and non-existing projects...
Probably Lars is running miniature KSes while Dina is pulling in money from other crowd funding.
I am totally convinced with what Lovejoy on Reaper Forum said :
"I would just remind you that in the Ice Age KS a lot of the offensive, vitriolic comments were signed Lars... He's not some troubleshooter who's been brought in, he was there from day one, messing things up and talking big along with the rest"
I believe who ever did the interview with Andrea Sfiligoi must be Lars.
If you listen to the voice behind IAM KS and Sea Monster KS videos, you can tell they are same. And I think Scott Lantry and Lars are same person as Ced1106 has mentioned.
Now, if i am not wrong on this, Lars is Liar
Actually Lars and his comments are the entire reason I started searching. I have just heard that kind of crap to many times before.
There is also Food for Thought Productions; the links are in the post I made on the previous page of this thread.
Thank you. I added that to the post.
In all seriousness, I hope I am totally wrong. I hope everyone gets their minis. I will certainly eat my words if it happens. I want more than anything for this company to prove me wrong.
In case I am right, I am gathering information. I happen to live in Delaware, and have no issues sending a huge report to the DE consumer fraud division. Since they are a DE registered business, it will be looked into. I have plenty of screen shots, in case things start seeing mysterious edits.
Thanks to the moderators for moving this thread to a more suitable forum.
That's weird. Every other legit miniatures company out there that I know of lists sculptors on their website, in sourcebooks or in magazines.
I assumed they had to provide sculptor names as part of the deal. Helps with promoting the artist and , if it's a good artist, promotes the miniatures too.
Never heard of legally having to keep the sculptors anonymous until these clowns turned up.
Those other two sculptors were probably anti-feminist conmen who turned in poor work, dropped a deuce on Lars' desk (which he promptly sculpted into a Sea Bishop), violated Dina's lemon-meringue pie and ran away with all the money in huge sacks with dollar signs on them.
Alex C wrote: Those other two sculptors were probably anti-feminist conmen who turned in poor work, dropped a deuce on Lars' desk (which he promptly sculpted into a Sea Bishop), violated Dina's lemon-meringue pie and ran away with all the money in huge sacks with dollar signs on them.
I see they seem to be taking the classic "baffle them with bullgak" approach by citing IP issues. No one except IP lawyers/specialists will ever be able to undermine that argument. Which is exactly why they are making it. They are dodging being able to provide a response... badly, but any attempt to argue will just get twistef into a black hole of pointless confusion. Which gets them what they want: not answering. Ugh.
Looks like I am sculpting the Kelpie tomorrow morning. one of our freelancers sent in a sea wolf sculpt, as well. Batteries died on the Fuji (why did they use AA batteries?), so I need to run to the store and get another pack."
Why hasn't any backer asked what happened to Kelpie and sea wolf?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
inquisitorlewis wrote: At this point I recommend everyone contact their credit card companies and start the process of a charge back.
Nah. The creators weren't sure how often they should post updates in the Updates messages, vs. the Comments, a common problem in KS. Post too often in the Updates, and some backers get upset. Post info in the Comments, and the other backers get upset. Jerks.
So ADW puts up a blog. I actually think that's a good idea, although it does put control in ADW's hands. (KS Commens and Updates cannot be deleted, or something like that.) I do think ADW is trying to put out good miniatures.
I don't think they'll succeed, but they're trying.
Your "legal" comment made me LOL... unfortunately I don't think there is any legal requirement, as in criminal. But there may be a KSTOS requirement. Is it rude? Is it discourteous? I think so. Only those with a very strong need to control discussion will make it so they can delete anything counter-message.
So this update is very interesting. I've been pondering it since it posted, and realized:
#1 with all the "only idiots can't fulfill minis kickstarters" (paraphrased) bluster, how many updates do they need?
#2 the sole reason to do this is to be able to delete, I mean, control, I mean, moderate the tone of discussions regarding the project. I recall a post from one of the project creators, in the kickstarter comments, about how they wished they could moderate or edit the discussion. I lol'd at the time, but now, refusal to engage anywhere but where they can control it? They've tried before ("legitimate" issues addressed via KSPM), and failed... so now this. They must be realizing that it is almost half-way through September* and gak may be about to hit the fan.
I suggest all backers continue to post comments / questions on the kickstarter page, because stuff doesn't "disappear" from there... And it seems people are commenting, a lot. Good.
*ETA - fulfillment is September, 2014, and they have been adamant that all is on time...
It does seem to be all about 'control' and having the ability to restrict conversation to 'approved' areas and to delete any comments that might expose some of the things that seem to be going on here...
Krampus on boardgamegeek said:
The only way to get your money back is either from an honest Project Creator , or dispute the charge with Amazon Payments.
And disputing a charge is not grounds for banning you from Amazon Payments or Kickstarter.
You may also be able to dispute the charges via Credit Card company if any of you used that. I know that doesn't help with paypal, but most CC companies are glad to help.
Yeah, this went down faster than I thought. If people act now, they should still be able to get their money back from the Sea Monster campaign, shouldn't they? I don't think moving their communication away from KS to their website (where people can't comment as of now, and even if they could ADW could delete) can be seen as anything else than them slowly backing away with the money.
And what utter bs they are pulling! We are getting flooded with emails demanding that we stop updating, it's just that the enormous silent majority of people with this opinion never comment on KS... Yeah right.
I've been following this since day 1 [and if you've read the Reaper threads then you've probably seen me posting there]
But I registered just to add something else to the excellent research you have going here, something to prove that the Lars you discovered and this Lars are most likely the same person
if you visit this page of their website: http://adwgames.com/doggerland.html you will see a breakdown of Families...including the Sunderflyrr Family
Which matches the Lars Sunderflyrr listed as a VP in one of those companies that were dug up. No Island Media, I think?
Anyways, thought I'd share, since it lends weight that this is all connected after all
Is it their latest campaign they've said they'll no longer update on the KS page, or the prior one? If it's the latest, KS won't have released the funds yet and might not like that if it gets pointed out to them...
RiTides wrote: Is it their latest campaign they've said they'll no longer update on the KS page, or the prior one? If it's the latest, KS won't have released the funds yet and might not like that if it gets pointed out to them...
If they've had an Amazon Payments account for 6+ months, they get the money right away.
I see they seem to be taking the classic "baffle them with bullgak" approach by citing IP issues. No one except IP lawyers/specialists will ever be able to undermine that argument. Which is exactly why they are making it. They are dodging being able to provide a response... badly, but any attempt to argue will just get twistef into a black hole of pointless confusion. Which gets them what they want: not answering. Ugh.
Edit- correct a typo.
Not a lawyer of any type but let me go ahead and undermine that for you: Unless they are claiming that they created their sculptors and their names, this is bs. They may have some contractual agreement preventing them from naming their sculptors, but it has feth all to do with IP.
Sirithiliel wrote: I've been following this since day 1 [and if you've read the Reaper threads then you've probably seen me posting there]
But I registered just to add something else to the excellent research you have going here, something to prove that the Lars you discovered and this Lars are most likely the same person
if you visit this page of their website: http://adwgames.com/doggerland.html you will see a breakdown of Families...including the Sunderflyrr Family
Which matches the Lars Sunderflyrr listed as a VP in one of those companies that were dug up. No Island Media, I think?
Anyways, thought I'd share, since it lends weight that this is all connected after all
Nice to see you here Sirithiliel! And a nice little fund there: the Sunderflyrr connection...
inquisitorlewis wrote: I suggest that everyone go together and FLOOD Amazon with complaints and charge backs.
I believe in democracy. If fair number of people flood Amazon and Kickstarter, They might care enough to do something about this.
Backers should team up and bring this issue to higher ups.
Sirithiliel wrote: I've been following this since day 1 [and if you've read the Reaper threads then you've probably seen me posting there]
But I registered just to add something else to the excellent research you have going here, something to prove that the Lars you discovered and this Lars are most likely the same person
if you visit this page of their website: http://adwgames.com/doggerland.html you will see a breakdown of Families...including the Sunderflyrr Family
Which matches the Lars Sunderflyrr listed as a VP in one of those companies that were dug up. No Island Media, I think?
Anyways, thought I'd share, since it lends weight that this is all connected after all
Nice to see you here Sirithiliel! And a nice little fund there: the Sunderflyrr connection...
I see someone on the kickstarter page is going to contact the BBB about this project.
It may be a good idea to file with the BBB against kickstarter as well. Both myself and RTides reported the Sea Monsters project while it was still active.
Kickstarter is partially responsible for this happening. They were totally negligent in background checks, and ignored reports informing them of the background of these scammers.
In a few of my early posts I hinted that I thought this was the actions of someone that has pulled scams on this community before. I no longer think that at all. I think these people (or one person) are new to this game.
Remember this. If you use their site to communicate with them, they can edit everything. They also now have all of your IP addresses. I recommend never using their site for anything.
The recent comments on the KS are curious...so Scott Lantry is replying to emails saying there is no refund policy?
Isn't Scott Lantry the aggressive part timer? Just trying to remember
EDIT:
In the Sea Serpent KS, they say:
"From S. Lantry, ADW Chairman:"
so he's not the part timer then...but he was the one making very unprofessional and aggressive comments in the locked Reaper thread. Very nice behavior for a Chairman, no? So he and a part timer both have poor social skills that are very similar to each other.
Sirithiliel wrote: The recent comments on the KS are curious...so Scott Lantry is replying to emails saying there is no refund policy?
Isn't Scott Lantry the aggressive part timer? Just trying to remember
EDIT:
In the Sea Serpent KS, they say:
"From S. Lantry, ADW Chairman:"
so he's not the part timer then...but he was the one making very unprofessional and aggressive comments in the locked Reaper thread. Very nice behavior for a Chairman, no? So he and a part timer both have poor social skills that are very similar to each other.
Scott Lantry is a contemporary sculpter, programmer, fine art and commercial photographer with over 25 years experience in photo and film production and post-production. With a M.A. in Art History and Humanities completed at an early age, Scott successfully worked, over the course of a quarter of a century, as an independent art director, photographer and media programmer for hundreds of internationally recognized brands and dozens of Fortune 500 companies in a diverse array of industry segments.
Automatically Appended Next Post: He must be the creator of the contemporary "Sea Rabbi "
I only know of him from his poor performance in that Reaper thread, good to know a bit more =)
You are welcome Sirithiel. I read what he was saying with such arrogance in Reaper Forum. He sounded like either he has split personality issue or bipolar.
Perhaps we could get the creators name added to the title of this thread? Stuff like that seems to be VERY helpful when doing google searches on a person.
In response to the various concerns and misunderstanding re: updates on IAM
1. I clearly stated that we would not be tending to the "Comment" section of the IAM KS. If it is unclear: we will be posting updates weekly on IAM KS, and updating more frequently on the adwgames.com site. A link has been provided for that update page several times.
2. I will post an "Update" every Friday until the miniatures have been delivered on both KS Campaigns;
3. The core duty before us, and we know this very well, is the move past the poor hiring choices that have put us behind schedule and move forward with new sculpts and more information. We chose the adwgames.com update page as the vehicle to achieve this, because It appears to the 5 people currently working on various aspects of this project, as if there is a small group of posting Pledgers on the IAM KS that sincerely hope we do not deliver, and are intent on driving hysteria towards that goal. That is counterproductive for our team and for the Pledgers that have placed their trust in us to fulfill. This is why we have chosen the new way of reporting progress outside of the comment section.
I'm half tempted to break this down and identify each of the mistruths, lies, etc but I think it speaks for itself. Massive backpedaling, undermining of backers with concerns, and dodging responsibility. It would be cute if people didn't have money on the line.
BTW, here's a great primer on identifying tactics of manipulators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation I like Simon's list in the "How Manipulators Control their Victims" section. There are several in this update... These two updates could almost be used as a classroom exercise in how to identify layered manipulation tactics!
Fortunately, several backers have commented on today's update, calling out the most obvious bull. Unfortunately, getting people to argue the bull is a tactic in and of itself to distract from the fact that they are not providing any actual information about the project!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well said, Jennifer Letts:
Jennifer Letts 6 minutes ago
The issue I am having is that what should be very simple project management questions are not being answered clearly or directly. Instead, we have in this very update more misdirection, lying, and playing the victim. These things have been very well spelled out by previous posters. I'd also like to add that classifying the very valid concerns of backers as "hysterical" is quite offensive and flat out sexist. The word "hysteria" is derogatory to women and implies that males are having womenly vapors over nothing.
You may think you've distracted us with this sort of hand waving. You haven't. You are not the victims here. You have been failing to manage your message and have been failing to provide clear, concrete answers to basic questions. As professionals with how many years combined experience, you should be used to dealing with shifting timelines and expectation management.
Also, until ADW provides an update to the "estimated delivery date", I am working under their repeated reassurances that this project is on time, meaning deadline is Oct 1.
Backers, please don't start ignoring the fact that they've repeatedly said that delivery is September, 2014. There has been no renogotiation of the contract terms to change that delivery date. in fact, all communication has indicated that this date is firm, not an estimate.
We, as backers, have a responsibility to hold project creators accountable. Even if it is by asking questions, repeatedly, until we get an answer. Project creators are also expected to communicate with backers, especially concerning any change in expected project delivery date.
"ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm half tempted to break this down and identify each of the mistruths, lies, etc but I think it speaks for itself. Massive backpedaling, undermining of backers with concerns, and dodging responsibility. It would be cute if people didn't have money on the line.
BTW, here's a great primer on identifying tactics of manipulators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation I like Simon's list in the "How Manipulators Control their Victims" section. There are several in this update... These two updates could almost be used as a classroom exercise in how to identify layered manipulation tactics!
Absolutely, they are professional scammers who knows how to manipulate people who are willing to help them then slap them on the face.
I feel I owe some gratitude to this thread, so I created an account to relate my interactions.
Asked for a refund from the creator, got nowhere.
Opened a KS ticket, went back and forth with them, no help.
So I called my CC company, described the situation, they reversed charges even though it had been 2+ months. Please note, your mileage may vary, I have had that particular CC for a very long time with zero incidents.
Thanks all.
PS: It seems that the people running this are now agreeing to anything in the Sea Monster comments, sculpts, base sizes, new things coming right out. It's not the 17th, how are they doing any of this without the correct sculpting material?
Welcome, Kajamo! Glad you joined us here, but sorry it was under these circumstances. It's great to hear you were successful with your card in getting a chargeback, though!
Kajamo wrote: I feel I owe some gratitude to this thread, so I created an account to relate my interactions.
Asked for a refund from the creator, got nowhere.
Opened a KS ticket, went back and forth with them, no help.
So I called my CC company, described the situation, they reversed charges even though it had been 2+ months. Please note, your mileage may vary, I have had that particular CC for a very long time with zero incidents.
Thanks all.
PS: It seems that the people running this are now agreeing to anything in the Sea Monster comments, sculpts, base sizes, new things coming right out. It's not the 17th, how are they doing any of this without the correct sculpting material?
Welcome to Dakka. Glad to hear you were successful getting your money back. I hope many more will be just as successful.
I just thought of a slang term that we can all add to our personal lexicons: Mandelbaum'd or Mandel-bombed: verb- To offer a product to the tabletop gaming community and demonstrate an ability to scam, not deliver, blame others (usually customers) for failure, defraud, and attempt to take advantage of others through social media or crowd-funding sites.. Ex. Dude, you've been Mandelbaum'd.
So what is with people who think they can pull this stuff? Is there a predilection in the way our (gamers) brains work that lead to such flights of fancy and delusions of grandeur cause people to have such issues, both on the supply and demand sides?
See also Tony Riedy formerly of Wargames Factory and Defiance Games.
Partial product development, partial delivery, mishandling of funds etc, why do we keep seeing this stuff happen? Are there that many people in our hobby with "imbalances in their humours"?
xraytango wrote: So what is with people who think they can pull this stuff?
If you look through the restored Reaper thread, you'll read Lars' comments that he thinks sculpting miniatures is an easy project.
The barrier to making metal and some resin miniatures *is* low, just a few hundred dollars for molds and supplies. However, *making* a miniature and sculpting one that people will buy are two different things.
Entrepreneurs need confidence to overcome obstacles that would stop other people, but sometimes this leads to overconfidence. Hoo boy does it.
xraytango wrote: So what is with people who think they can pull this stuff?
If you look through the restored Reaper thread, you'll read Lars' comments that he thinks sculpting miniatures is an easy project.
The barrier to making metal and some resin miniatures *is* low, just a few hundred dollars for molds and supplies. However, *making* a miniature and sculpting one that people will buy are two different things.
Entrepreneurs need confidence to overcome obstacles that would stop other people, but sometimes this leads to overconfidence. Hoo boy does it.
I'll check that out.
People don't understand the work that goes into design and sculpting. I did some Jersey Barriers for a company and they sell like hotcakes, you never know what is going to get peoples attention, but you can do your best and hope that hard work pays off.
The molds were probably more expensive than the sculpt, but I had an outlay of time, material, and brain-work to put it together, so yeah resin and metal molds are not as expensive as C-n-C metal tools but it still isn't an "easy" process.
Here's the original Reaper thread, this is where I first started getting real paranoid about these people. They were pretty arrogant about their ability to produce miniatures. My guess is they came into our little world after seeing some of the big KS campaigns (Kingdom Death, CMoN, Mantic), and thought it looked like an easy cash grab.
http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55475-ice-age-miniatures-kickstarter/
Kajamo, fantastic that you got your money back! I think you should definitely let others know it may be possible via the Kickstarter comments (I'm not a backer so can't post there).
Wow, I've been reading that. Looks like there was a lot of editing in that thread. I just read that there were evidently a lot of horrible things said by D. Walker about Reaper as a company and the people who run it. Those have evidently been redacted.
Someone like that has got some real issues.
And the folks at Reaper do as best a job as they can and have a pretty good outfit because of it, that lady had no idea of what she was saying!
Yea, they were bashing Reaper [and several forum users, including myself] in that thread before it got edited. Basically telling us we had no idea what we were talking about, making 'toys' [as they insisted on calling miniatures] was easy and we're all stupid. Went on and on about how we're flamers and etc.
By the way, I just found out that Kickstarter will be opening up business here in Sweden in October, so you can all look to the near future for some stiff ADW Games competition. Working title is: "World-class, appropriately scaled miniatures depicting IKEA furniture and pin-up Norse gods, superbly handcrafted by the creatively unbiased minds of Swedish preschoolers." A $1 funding goal, free world-wide shipping, full refund policy; I think it's going to be huge. What do you mean lack of detail?! That's nordic minimalism you ignorant fool! Lumps of clay, what are you talking about?! This is creative arts you brutish thug!
"terror birds, cave lion...etc not in scale"
So, I did some massive research on the yellow human miniature that is next to the terror birds and it turns out that the yellow human miniature is produced by
Hat.com under El cid2800 series(28mm) line:
The real tragedy of these people is that they will have consumed funds that could have supported actual, more modest kickstarters from people that actually seems to aim to bring new models to the market.
It's slightly depressing that the IAM and Sea monsters can rake in over 20 000 $, when smaller and infinatly more honest projects are uncertain to reach similar or much lower goals than the ADW kickstarters set out with:
28mm Orcs Orge miniature Native warriors and Spirit beasts
Zywus wrote: The real tragedy of these people is that they will have consumed funds that could have supported actual, more modest kickstarters from people that actually seems to aim to bring new models to the market.
It's slightly depressing that the IAM and Sea monsters can rake in over 20 000 $, when smaller and infinatly more honest projects are uncertain to reach similar or much lower goals than these kickstarters set out with:
28mm Orcs Orge miniature Native warriors and Spirit beasts
yeah, I agree. Backers should really think twice about when someone is offering 'freebies' with nasty attitude.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kevin Rau (Author of H.E.R.O. novels) 7 minutes ago
I think you guys are nuts. Don't pledge on Kickstarters any longer, it's that simple. There are no guaranteed timeframes, and there's nothing at all to show that they will not fulfill the miniatures. Sure, the exact ones shown are being redone in a different size, but it looks like they've got a consistent style, and have been far better at communication than most Kickstarters are.
Many, many, MANY Kickstarters run over their projected timeframes, and that includes experienced companies that know what to expect. KS is here to fund small companies that need to get started. Give them some time to fulfill it before you break out the pitchforks and torches.
Not mean to criticize Kev, but we should invite him to Reaper or Dakka forum. Seems that he is either ignoring or hasn't informed the fact that ADW Games is run by scammers
Zywus wrote: The real tragedy of these people is that they will have consumed funds that could have supported actual, more modest kickstarters from people that actually seems to aim to bring
Not mean to criticize Kev, but we should invite him to Reaper or Dakka forum. Seems that he is either ignoring or hasn't informed the fact that ADW Games is run by scammers
Well, at this point, I can only hope that they are making an honest attempt to kick off a sustainable business. None of the above looks promising.
I still hold to the 'let's see what they come up with' theory at this point, as any likelihood of recovering funds is negligible.
That throws away too much baby with the bathwater, IMO.
Not only have I found some really good deals on KS (eg. Zombicide Season 2, Reaper Bones I and II), but I've found miniature projects that I'd never even think existed (Impact Miniature's Big Lebowski miniatures). *BOTH* retail and KS projects get delayed. The big difference is that, with KS, you hand over your money sooner, so have more of an emotional stake in the project. Retail also has the advantage of "try before you buy", but you can't always do this (and a FLGS certainly won't let me try a bottle of hobby paint before buying it!). And, for some non-KS purchases and investments, you *DO* want perform as much research as possible, which is what you do with a KS project. I certainly agree that delays are to be expected, so if you want your man-dollies NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW, then, yeah, KS isn't for you. OTOH, If your painting queue is as long as mine, the mini's are still gonna arrive sooner than you have time to paint them!
Goblini wrote: Don't pledge on Kickstarters any longer, it's that simple.
That throws away too much baby with the bathwater, IMO.
Not only have I found some really good deals on KS (eg. Zombicide Season 2, Reaper Bones I and II), but I've found miniature projects that I'd never even think existed (Impact Miniature's Big Lebowski miniatures). *BOTH* retail and KS projects get delayed. The big difference is that, with KS, you hand over your money sooner, so have more of an emotional stake in the project. Retail also has the advantage of "try before you buy", but you can't always do this (and a FLGS certainly won't let me try a bottle of hobby paint before buying it!). And, for some non-KS purchases and investments, you *DO* want perform as much research as possible, which is what you do with a KS project. I certainly agree that delays are to be expected, so if you want your man-dollies NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW, then, yeah, KS isn't for you. OTOH, If your painting queue is as long as mine, the mini's are still gonna arrive sooner than you have time to paint them!
RR lives in MONTREAL, the same city as No Island Media, one of ADW's former incarnations, and JPM lives in Quebec, where Montreal is located.
Ced1106, I did not write "don't pledge on KS..."
Good job at locating the two artists. It will be super helpful if they could tell us what is happening with ADW Games/ behind the scene and their side of story. Anyone up for contacting the artists?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Trodax? Ced1106?
would you contact the artists?
If i was good at interviewing, I would but I am just not good at that.
Kajamo wrote: I submitted a Project Feedback Form on Kickstarter as part of my support ticket.
I had requested a refund through the "contact me" button, the creator passed me on to the Chairman (Scott Walker), who never responded. Shocking.
'Scott Walker' what the heck! Only thing i can think at the moment, they lied too many times that they even forgot their fake names they were supposed to be using
Automatically Appended Next Post: We should really get the artists on the line and kindly explain what really is going on with this mess.
Some movement the last couple of days. Updates copy-pasted below, spoilered due to size.
Spoiler:
Update #110
Sep 16 2014
New Schedule
Ladies and Gentlemen:
We're doing our best under less than ideal circumstances. We apologize for how communication has gotten out of hand and would like to start over. We're working hard to try to keep it from happening, but it is possible that delivery on this campaign will be delayed. We will continue to provide weekly updates, both with progress and with more information on whether a delay will happen.
Re: our progress while we wait for wax. The furniture and the mushrooms for Sea Monsters are all blocked out and just waiting for the final wax, as well as all of the IAM minis. So, if I really pump the caffeine with the team, I hope to get all giant sized sea-monsters completed, the furniture completed, the mushrooms completed, and for (for IAM) all terror birds and 4 IAM not previously seen completed within a week. It looks like we are on track to have all Sea Monster and IAM sculpts done by month's end, and cast immediately thereafter.
Update #111
Sep 17 2014
New Pics Friday and Sunday
(Finished) Megistotherium and Embolotherium sculpt photos will be uploaded here and on the adwgames.com site on Friday.
We appreciate your patience. We will be updating photos on IAM Tuesday and Friday of next week.
Update #112
Sep 17 2014
Wax is in the Office
Things move fast now. All of the miniatures have (proper-scale) sculpey armatures completed. It is all detailing now. Three guys. part time. Yes, we have another KS to complete, as well, but we will finish both before the end of the month. With casteline we will need to create silicon masters, so the models do not melt, and then go to the resin casting step. But, right now, we want to show you progress on the sculpts you have been waiting for. SO: as before: Friday and Sunday Updates. Thanks for holding in there.
I note there is not an updated estimated completion date, but the update states the project "may" run late. Now that they have the wax in-house, the estimates I recall was 40-60 hours to complete the sculpting, and 40-60 hours to cast everything. If those are person-hours, and more than one person is working, then it shouldn't take long at all real-time to turn around. Of course, I think the estimates are unrealistically optimistic, so...
Again, all we have are words at this point. I will be very interested to see the final sculpts tomorrow. Great job to all who have been continuing to investigate. "Trust, but verify" should really be the motto of kickstarter backers.
Frankly, i find their update message and picture really pretentious. Even if they present backer an update with better looking sculpts, that does not mean backers will be getting the sculpts. It almost looks to me as if they are trying to convince backers for their "Carnival" KS in October. Won't be surprised if they launch in October without IAM having delivered.
Frankly, i find their update message and picture really pretentious. Even if they present backer an update with better looking sculpts, that does not mean backers will be getting the sculpts. It almost looks to me as if they are trying to convince backers for their "Carnival" KS in October. Won't be surprised if they launch in October without IAM having delivered.
Look at the huge difference between their first kickstarter and their second kickstarter. The amount in pledges is HUGE!!! I imagine the 3rd will be even worse for them.
At this point this company has so much ill will, the comments section of the newest kickstarter will be a mess. I may actually pledge a dollar this time around. 1 dollar seems like a fair price to pay, just to be able to comment in the KS comments area.
Goblini wrote:We should really get the artists on the line and kindly explain what really is going on with this mess.
Hmm, perhaps. I might look into it later today if I have time.
I was thinking the other day that it would be interesting to hear Andrea Sfiligoi's (the author of Song and Blades and Heroes) side of the story. He had a collaboration going with ADW from the end of their first KS (they cancelled that campaign when they decided to switch systems, bringing Andrea onboard) until the middle of their third KS (which they cancelled a short while after Andrea dropped out). After he announced on Facebook that he was no longer part of the project, I have heard nothing more from him. What do you guys think?
Alpharius wrote:What's up with the thoughtfully included "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"?
Hey, I always break out that badboy, alongside a wooden tray and horse, whenever I'm about to paint or greenstuff something. I find it helps marvelously in getting those pretentious juices flowing.
Anyway, speaking of Andreas, I know his name attracted some backers, but another guideline I use for KS is "ignore the designer". The Doom that Came to Atlantic City is the best example. The designers themselves weren't involved with the project, and were also caught unawares when the creator said there was no money left and the game wouldn't be produced (there was plenty of money for the creator to try to start his own game business, of course). A minor brouhaha on BoardGameGeek was the designer's discussion of the game before it was KS'ed. BGG'ers assumed the bits that he discussed would be in the game before SG's, and were unhappy that the SG's "put parts of the game back in the box".
Goblini wrote:We should really get the artists on the line and kindly explain what really is going on with this mess.
"Hmm, perhaps. I might look into it later today if I have time."
Thank you Trodax, I saw your earlier posts on Reaper and Dakka and figured that you have the ability to see through things.
"I was thinking the other day that it would be interesting to hear Andrea Sfiligoi's (the author of Song and Blades and Heroes) side of the story. He had a collaboration going with ADW from the end of their first KS (they cancelled that campaign when they decided to switch systems, bringing Andrea onboard) until the middle of their third KS (which they cancelled a short while after Andrea dropped out). After he announced on Facebook that he was no longer part of the project, I have heard nothing more from him. What do you guys think?"
I surely believe Andrea had really good reason for leaving the project. He also is a backer in IAM KS. Not very sure if he is gonna tell us straight answer since he has reputation in this community. Bottom line, if he was gonna tell the reason for leaving the project, we would already have known about it. Though will be interesting to hear what was the real reason.
"
Alpharius wrote:What's up with the thoughtfully included "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"?
Hey, I always break out that badboy, alongside a wooden tray and horse, whenever I'm about to paint or greenstuff something. I find it helps marvelously in getting those pretentious juices flowing.
"Look at the huge difference between their first kickstarter and their second kickstarter. The amount in pledges is HUGE!!! I imagine the 3rd will be even worse for them.
At this point this company has so much ill will, the comments section of the newest kickstarter will be a mess. I may actually pledge a dollar this time around. 1 dollar seems like a fair price to pay, just to be able to comment in the KS comments area.
"
They literally called people pledging a dollar 'trolls' and totally ignored their comments.
i would not even waste a dollar on them.
The apology update (#110) has been bugging me, and I just realized why. It is essentially saying, "Sorry, I'll never do it again. Give me one more chance, baby. Let me make it up to you." They just needed to add, "It's not my fault I hit you! You just made me so mad!" to make it complete. It is just too textbook. We'll see if this time, they finally mean it.
Yeah, that phrase was intended to be a bit loaded, as in, "I'm saying I trust you for the sake of diplomacy, but I need proof to actually believe you."
Alpharius wrote: What's up with the thoughtfully included "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"?
I lol'd at the artfully staged photo as well. My first thought was that the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire was nicely symbolic. The internal politics, overwieldy size and impossible demands of governing/managing the empire, and failing infrastructure that I associate with the fall of Rome seems like it could represent the inner workings of ADW... but more likely, it was chosen because it was a pretty green color to go with the red-brown horse armature.
Trodax, I think any input from Andrea Sfiligoi would be great. I think there was a bit of info on the Band of Gnomes thread here on dakka, and that the announcement of him departing was on a facebook page...
Edit - misstated the book title. Egads, what a frightful error. I sincerely hope you kind chaps will forgive my transgression.
It is _very_ challenging to sculpt miniatures using only a copy of The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire and your own sense of self importance. This explains the WIPs that we've seen so far.
I, too, enjoyed the staged picture, with about everyone else on this page it seems (and no doubt many a lurker). Thanks for the entertainment all, although I'm sorry a few of you have money caught up in this!
When you see that much drama for of all things miniatures, its just time to sit back with a Coke and popcorn and watch the trains collide.
If you''ve backed them- Get out. GET OUT, NOW!
These are the same sorts of mutts that will bail on this KS, come back as Tom and Jerry productions and try to fleece more people for "project " money that will never produce a mouse fart.
Kickstarter, the gift that rewards shills, and bears absolutely no responsibility.
Updates are here on the two projects. It looks like waiting for that wax and bringing in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire really did the trick. </sarcasm>
Trodax wrote: Updates are here on the two projects. It looks like waiting for that wax and bringing in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire really did the trick. </sarcasm>
To be fair, the camera is a bespoke creation. 100% certified organic, handcrafted from responsibly-sourced materials and only accepts artisanal batteries. These can take quite a while to charge. Fortunately, placing a copy of Plato's Republic nearby can speed the process.
Of course, Pleebs like you wouldn't understand.
To be fair, the camera is a bespoke creation. 100% certified organic, handcrafted from responsibly-sourced materials and only accepts artisanal batteries. These can take quite a while to charge. Fortunately, placing a copy of Plato's Republic nearby can speed the process.
Of course, Pleebs like you wouldn't understand.
Obviously I need to go out and find a wooden horse. It's a step in the right direction to enhance my budding sculpting career
highlord tamburlaine wrote: If I do actually receive anything, I will purposefully create a P&M blog here and chronicle my efforts.
I won't do it for Darklands, or ShadowSea, or any of the myriad of bizarre figures clogging my desk.
But I'll do it for ADW.
They are that awesome.
God I wish they'd just pay the damned original sculptor and get this all sorted out.
Yeah, me too. I really wish we were getting those original sculpts used for marketing the campaign.
I, too will start a painting blog here for these miniatures, whatever it is that we end up with from this... I'm still waiting for the final sculpts before I make my final assessment, but dude. Not looking promising at all, at this point. Clearly I just don't have the artistic vision to fill in the gaps. Surely the quality of the sculpts will speak for themselves when painted!
inquisitorlewis wrote: I wonder if they're laughing at us as much as we are laughing at them.
I almost hope so.
I'd almost rather get trolled than have them have their heads so far off in the clouds believing that what they are offering is an acceptable alternative to what we were shown in the beginning.
inquisitorlewis wrote: I wonder if they're laughing at us as much as we are laughing at them.
I almost hope so.
I'd almost rather get trolled than have them have their heads so far off in the clouds believing that what they are offering is an acceptable alternative to what we were shown in the beginning.
Do you think they would be pissed if I contacted the original sculptor, and bought the sculpt? Maybe run a kickstarter of my own.
I do like that original Elasmotherium sculpt...and such a nice charging pose he had. I had originally pledged for him until that situation on the Reaper forums, and canceled as soon as i saw their attitude
inquisitorlewis wrote: Do you think they would be pissed if I contacted the original sculptor, and bought the sculpt? Maybe run a kickstarter of my own.
Can you really run a KS? Because I know pinmini on the Reaper forums sculpted gnomes that I'm guessing were originally for the ADW Band of Gnomes project, and has the Ice Age miniature animals.
Pinmini would have to have his contract reviewed by a lawyer to confirm that he owns the sculpts. Nobody owns the IP on ice age mammals, of course.
These pics remind me of resumes. The more inexperienced the person, the more stuff they put on their resume...
One thing I just noticed is that they seem to have done some pruning of their Kickstarter pages. The Ice Age Mammals page used to have an FAQ section where they, among other things, were saying that they don't work with freelancers (I quoted part of that on page 3 of this thread). And their first KS, Doggerland the skirmish game, I know used to have a section at the bottom where they stated that they have years of experience in the miniature industry, that they have been diligent in their efforts to check every step of the production in advance etc etc. Hmmm. I had actually assumed that this stuff was still up there because it isn't possible to alter the main page after a project is funded or cancelled. Seems I was wrong.
One thing I just noticed is that they seem to have done some pruning of their Kickstarter pages. The Ice Age Mammals page used to have an FAQ section where they, among other things, were saying that they don't work with freelancers (I quoted part of that on page 3 of this thread). And their first KS, Doggerland the skirmish game, I know used to have a section at the bottom where they stated that they have years of experience in the miniature industry, that they have been diligent in their efforts to check every step of the production in advance etc etc. Hmmm. I had actually assumed that this stuff was still up there because it isn't possible to alter the main page after a project is funded or cancelled. Seems I was wrong.
Way back machine should solve those edits easily enough.
Trodax wrote: I had actually assumed that this stuff was still up there because it isn't possible to alter the main page after a project is funded or cancelled. Seems I was wrong.
I believe its possible to modify to the FAQ, but the page itself it is not possible to change.
Oh, cool, had never heard of that. So going back to an older version of the Ice Age Mammals, it appears they have now removed the entire 'Risks and challenges' and 'FAQ' sections:
No luck in finding the old Doggerland KS page though I'm afraid. However, I'm sure that used to have a section at the bottom describing how professional and awesome their team is.
Oh, cool, had never heard of that. So going back to an older version of the Ice Age Mammals, it appears they have now removed the entire 'Risks and challenges' and 'FAQ' sections:
No luck in finding the old Doggerland KS page though I'm afraid. However, I'm sure that used to have a section at the bottom describing how professional and awesome their team is.
You seem to be mislooking or having an issue with your browser, the FAQ & Risks/Challenges sections are still present... As its not possible to edit a FAQ or the page _AT ALL_ after it funds. I just attempted to do so on one of my own projects and it just spits out a 'you can't do that' error.
Oh, cool, had never heard of that. So going back to an older version of the Ice Age Mammals, it appears they have now removed the entire 'Risks and challenges' and 'FAQ' sections:
No luck in finding the old Doggerland KS page though I'm afraid. However, I'm sure that used to have a section at the bottom describing how professional and awesome their team is.
You seem to be mislooking or having an issue with your browser, the FAQ & Risks/Challenges sections are still present... As its not possible to edit a FAQ or the page _AT ALL_ after it funds. I just attempted to do so on one of my own projects and it just spits out a 'you can't do that' error.
Oh, crap, sorry about that. I'm on my phone and those sections are found at the top of the page under their own little tabs; I missed that, I'm an idiot. It does make a lot of sense that you can't edit after funding, that is indeed what I had assumed.
Anyway, this was the section I went back to look at, where they in their very first KS claimed to have experience with producing miniatures. Considering the switching of sculpting media and the apparent confusion over the need to make masters and whatnot, this is sounding pretty arrogant, eh?
We have all worked with miniature manufacturers and printers in the past, for several decades, in fact, so we are well aware of the types of issues that may arise and we have been diligent in our pre-production process to ensure that their will be no delays in meeting all of our goals from our team. If there are any delays, for any reason, we will immediately inform all patrons, and make certain everyone is happy with the final outcome.
That being said, we are certain that we have all of our bases covered. We have been at this very long time.
Oh puke. Those are going to need much more than extra toes and a polish. They just took the crude sculpey 'armatures', stuck a thin, tight layer of wax over them, and prodded them with a sculpting tool for a bit. If it's not obvious to backers that these people have no idea what they're doing (despite the facepalming bit that Trodax just quoted, and the constant distracting flim-flam of castilene and d-limolene)... I dunno.
For one thing... that rhino (Elasmotherium? Coelodonta?)... Did they give it a ceratopsian-style head crest? They didn't realise that the raised rear of a rhino'sskull is backed up by an awful lot of muscle?
They're certainly entertaining and I don't think any professional miniatures company would drop their quality so much as to "rival" ADW...
Just LOOK at that fething monkey. Sweet mother of God. WTF are they thinking? Are they not even the slightest bit embarrassed? Bloody hell...
I know they're not "finished", but no amount of polishing that turd and drizzling lemon juice over it is going to make it appealing.
I really don't know if this is a scam or a bunch of ex-scammers trying to be legit, but whatever the feth it is, it's bloody hilarious and has brought new definition to the term "failboat".
It has to be a wind-up. Surely there is no way anyone could look at those miniatures and think that all they need is a final 'polish'... They barely qualify as armatures as they currently sit.
Goblini wrote: What is amazing about their updates is those five fans who always like whatever adw throws on their faces.
They are either pretend accounts from the creators, or just people trying to protect their investment. I guess some people just hope they receive anything. Even if it is malformed lumps of clay.
I love how they are foreshadowing the delays. It went from "we will finish everything over the weekend" to the latest from Lars:
"Lars] Finishing the sculpt tomorrow (Sunday). As mentioned. d-Limonene scheduled for last week of September."
So, that will probably have to dry for a few days, then the batteries in the camera will have died, the dog will have eaten the homework. And what do you want to bet the next Kickstarter will have started?
Kajamo wrote: I love how they are foreshadowing the delays. It went from "we will finish everything over the weekend" to the latest from Lars:
"Lars] Finishing the sculpt tomorrow (Sunday). As mentioned. d-Limonene scheduled for last week of September."
So, that will probably have to dry for a few days, then the batteries in the camera will have died, the dog will have eaten the homework. And what do you want to bet the next Kickstarter will have started?
yeah, seriously i am anticipating on what will be their next excuse for delay or bad sculpts.
They already used these excuses:
-Bad hires including sculptors stealing, handing in bad sculpts
-UPS or Fedex
-Size issue
-Sculpey
-Delay on castilene due to delivery guy's emergency
-Unproductive comments from backers
-Dental emergency
-Out of batteries x2
Am I missing any?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alex C wrote: They're certainly entertaining and I don't think any professional miniatures company would drop their quality so much as to "rival" ADW...
Just LOOK at that fething monkey. Sweet mother of God. WTF are they thinking? Are they not even the slightest bit embarrassed? Bloody hell...
I know they're not "finished", but no amount of polishing that turd and drizzling lemon juice over it is going to make it appealing.
I really don't know if this is a scam or a bunch of ex-scammers trying to be legit, but whatever the feth it is, it's bloody hilarious and has brought new definition to the term "failboat".
Those horses only have texture in the manes and tails, or in the saddle detail. Some of them don't even have mane/tail detail...
So, what they're saying, is that their models actually WON'T have texture?
on the subject of delays, I estimate something going wrong with the silicon molds. Just seems to be another way to delay =P Have something go wrong with that step, perhaps even ruining the masters
A new elephant-thing is up on the Ice Age Mammals. Really churning those turds out now!
Goblini wrote: yeah, seriously i am anticipating on what will be their next excuse for delay or bad sculpts.
They already used these excuses:
-Bad hires including sculptors stealing, handing in bad sculpts
-UPS or Fedex
-Size issue
-Sculpey
-Delay on castilene due to delivery guy's emergency
-Unproductive comments from backers
-Dental emergency
-Out of batteries x2
Am I missing any?
I think you covered it pretty well. There was potentially a new one in the making mentioned in the Sea Beasts comments today; they accidentally sent the survey out, for which Kickstarter only gives you one shot as far as I've understood it. I foresee substantial delays when people now will need to email their selections in...
Goblini wrote: Alex C, you never fail at making me laugh
Agreed, this piece had me cramping up pretty good!
1. Place them in the freezer for an hour.
2. Clean up any burrs or artifacts either with a razor or a heated tool.
3. Rub them with pan[t]yhose and a solvent.
4. ???
5. Profit!
Aside from the bizarre pantyhose comment, I find it weird and telling (as if we need more telling signs) that they're announcing all these minor steps in the process. Like they're trying to remember what to do next as much as (or more than) keeping the backers reassured and on side. Whereas a pro sculptor would probably just... do it.
... a maggot with a tongue that will eventually become the giant creature.
The tongue becomes the giant creature? What giant creature?
I have to admit I once sculpted something that looked a lot like those maggots.
Aside from the bizarre pantyhose comment, I find it weird and telling (as if we need more telling signs) that they're announcing all these minor steps in the process. Like they're trying to remember what to do next as much as (or more than) keeping the backers reassured and on side. Whereas a pro sculptor would probably just... do it..
It's not unusual for a sculptor to show a WIP sculpt and list what still needs to be done to it in order to allay concerns from people thinking it's further along than it actually is.
It's a little more unusual for a sculptor to show roughly fleshed out armatures and claim that they only need 'polishing' in order to become finished pieces.
Trodax wrote: A new elephant-thing is up on the Ice Age Mammals. Really churning those turds out now!
Goblini wrote: yeah, seriously i am anticipating on what will be their next excuse for delay or bad sculpts.
They already used these excuses:
-Bad hires including sculptors stealing, handing in bad sculpts
-UPS or Fedex
-Size issue
-Sculpey
-Delay on castilene due to delivery guy's emergency
-Unproductive comments from backers
-Dental emergency
-Out of batteries x2
Am I missing any?
I think you covered it pretty well. There was potentially a new one in the making mentioned in the Sea Beasts comments today; they accidentally sent the survey out, for which Kickstarter only gives you one shot as far as I've understood it. I foresee substantial delays when people now will need to email their selections in...
insaniak wrote: It's not unusual for a sculptor to show a WIP sculpt and list what still needs to be done to it in order to allay concerns from people thinking it's further along than it actually is.
I've done it myself. They still seem to go into an unusual level of moment-by-moment detail, though. "We have to put these in the freezer, guys. It's going to take a whole hour, so I'm afraid you're gonna hafta wait a bit for the next update..."
It's a little more unusual for a sculptor to show roughly fleshed out armatures and claim that they only need 'polishing' in order to become finished pieces.
That's just because the internet wasn't around in Michelangelo's days...he kept dragging around that big block of marble saying it only needs a little be of polishing to become a masterpiece...
This is really a minor thing, but I noticed that Lars (or whoever it is) used Canadian Google when posting a link in the comment section of the Sea Monsters yesterday. That's not damning in itself of course (unless you consider any connection to Canada to be tainted ), but it just made me try to think back. Have we seen any evidence contradicting the idea that what we're dealing with is a lone guy in an apartment somewhere in Canada, equipped with a computer, some clay and a box of props (a couple of books, wooden horse etc), rather than a big, highly experienced company located in a posh NYC office?
I just can't remember any instant where we have seen clear evidence that they have actually spent any money on this (other than perhaps buying those two boxes of Castilene). Sure, they've talked lots about their great casting facilities, but that's just it. Talked. When the Ice Age Mammals was running, they had some photos of sculpts from a decently talented sculptor, but as far as I've heard, rumor has it he or they were never paid for their services (most likely ADW never had those sculpts in hand of course, just the pictures, that's why they had to be "scrapped" due to scale issues and yaddayaddayadda). After those, every WIP posted has just been lumps of clay that could have been smudged together by anyone. They've said that they now have two new sculptors on hire, but have so far not shown any work from them (at least it looks to me like everything so far is probably done by the same person, despite them saying that they were going to "pump the team on caffeine in order to get everything done in a jiffy"). They are going to print T-shirts for their Ice Age Mammals campaign, but we haven't seen those either of course.
I should perhaps mention that I managed to get in contact with one of their former freelance artists, as we discussed earlier in this thread. A very nice guy, we've been chatting over the weekend, but it didn't add much either way. He was never paid, but that was part of the deal so it wasn't a scam (he worked on the KS campaigns that were cancelled, and was to receive payment only if they got funded). He had also thought the company a bit strange, and wondered why nothing could be found online concerning their supposedly very impressive achievments from the past.
We now know that the sculpts will be pretty terrible, that is quite plain to see. But even given that, I really highly doubt that they will be casting these and deliver them to backers. Given how many freebies they crammed into both their funded campaigns (hey, that's what got them funded, right?), it'll just have to cost them so much in materials and shipping fees. I'm also reminded that they have slammed that big "EU friendly" sticker on all their campaigns, but have never mentioned what it entails (usually, setting up a deal for EU friendly delivery is kind of a big deal for KS creators). I know they've been saying that they're running this as a loss leader in order to get established and build a reputation, but come on; the dude below is not something that will build a solid reputation. I just find it far, far more likely that they're just stringing people along.
OK, I'm hiding this behind spoiler tags as there could be children or elderly citizens with weak hearts watching.
Trodax wrote: I know they've been saying that they're running this as a loss leader in order to get established and build a reputation, but come on; the dude below is not something that will build a solid reputation. I just find it far, far more likely that they're just stringing people along.
OK, I'm hiding this behind spoiler tags as there could be children or elderly citizens with weak hearts watching.
Spoiler:
I have to admit, I have not been following this very closely, but surely the 'sculpt' in the spoiler pictures is just you joking around right? Taking 5-10 minutes with your kid's PlayDoh to make fun of the KS, right?
I mean really, there is no way they showed that as even a WIP towards fulfilling the KS.
Trodax wrote: This is really a minor thing, but I noticed that Lars (or whoever it is) used Canadian Google when posting a link in the comment section of the Sea Monsters yesterday. That's not damning in itself of course (unless you consider any connection to Canada to be tainted ), but it just made me try to think back. Have we seen any evidence contradicting the idea that what we're dealing with is a lone guy in an apartment somewhere in Canada, equipped with a computer, some clay and a box of props (a couple of books, wooden horse etc), rather than a big, highly experienced company located in a posh NYC office?
I just can't remember any instant where we have seen clear evidence that they have actually spent any money on this (other than perhaps buying those two boxes of Castilene). Sure, they've talked lots about their great casting facilities, but that's just it. Talked. When the Ice Age Mammals was running, they had some photos of sculpts from a decently talented sculptor, but as far as I've heard, rumor has it he or they were never paid for their services (most likely ADW never had those sculpts in hand of course, just the pictures, that's why they had to be "scrapped" due to scale issues and yaddayaddayadda). After those, every WIP posted has just been lumps of clay that could have been smudged together by anyone. They've said that they now have two new sculptors on hire, but have so far not shown any work from them (at least it looks to me like everything so far is probably done by the same person, despite them saying that they were going to "pump the team on caffeine in order to get everything done in a jiffy"). They are going to print T-shirts for their Ice Age Mammals campaign, but we haven't seen those either of course.
I should perhaps mention that I managed to get in contact with one of their former freelance artists, as we discussed earlier in this thread. A very nice guy, we've been chatting over the weekend, but it didn't add much either way. He was never paid, but that was part of the deal so it wasn't a scam (he worked on the KS campaigns that were cancelled, and was to receive payment only if they got funded). He had also thought the company a bit strange, and wondered why nothing could be found online concerning their supposedly very impressive achievments from the past.
We now know that the sculpts will be pretty terrible, that is quite plain to see. But even given that, I really highly doubt that they will be casting these and deliver them to backers. Given how many freebies they crammed into both their funded campaigns (hey, that's what got them funded, right?), it'll just have to cost them so much in materials and shipping fees. I'm also reminded that they have slammed that big "EU friendly" sticker on all their campaigns, but have never mentioned what it entails (usually, setting up a deal for EU friendly delivery is kind of a big deal for KS creators). I know they've been saying that they're running this as a loss leader in order to get established and build a reputation, but come on; the dude below is not something that will build a solid reputation.
Thank you for contacting an artist Todax. Doggerland and IAM had some good looking 2D concept art from various artists. After Bog launched, only concept art that is visible were the gnomes by Andrea Sfiligoi and 2D art that were previously shown in IAM KS and adw website. And Sea Monster KS has no 2D art beside google images. This tells me that artists were no longer there when Bog KS launched then Andrea also left.
So, Lars is in Canada? He also described himself a tall swede blond pony tail. I guess not.
too sweet
