This will be a tabletop dungeon crawler game, conceptually similar to Heroquest or Warhammer Quest, but building on the gameplay mechanics established in the Dwarf King's Hold series of board games.
Mantic Games wrote:Dungeon Saga: The Dwarf King’s Quest is the dungeon adventure board game for 2-5 players. The heroes must battle their way through 6 exciting scenarios, growing in strength and acquiring magical items, before eventually facing off against the Necromancer in a final exciting showdown between good and evil.
Will you fight back against the hordes of darkness, or will you let evil prevail?
The basic game will centre around 4 heroes entering an undead-infested dungeon, playing through a narrative series of linked scenarios, fighting skeletons and zombies and eventually facing tougher monsters such as Zombie Trolls and the Undead Dwarf King and his bodyguards.
- Core game will include 4 heroes and a horde of Undead to fight, along with the rules, scenario book and game tiles.
- In addition to this, the game will have a false bottom with a trapdoor which opens up to reveal an advanced rulebook and other interesting things that expand the game beyond the basic scenarios, such as rules for every Undead model in the Kings of War model range, generating dungeons and levelling up characters, using their gold to buy new items etc.
- Advanced rules will also include rules for new heroes, and rules for different classes that each race type can pick.
- There will be lots of different heroes, huge variety ranging from Halfling Thief to Warrior Nun to Lizardman Shapeshifter.
Current contents of the $100 "Dungeon Master" pledge level:(63 miniatures total)
List of stretch goals:
$50k: Game Funded.
$75k: 3 Armoured Zombies added to boxed game.
$100k: 3 Dwarf Revenants added to boxed game.
$125k: Undead Dwarf King added to boxed game.
$135k: Undead rules added to boxed game.
$150k: Kickstarter Exclusive Female Human Wizard added free to pledges of Dungeon Master.
$175k: 3 Ghosts added to boxed game.
$200k: 4 alternate resin heroes added as $25 optional add-on.
$225k: 3 Zombie Trolls added to boxed game.
$250k: Zombie Troll Shaman added to boxed game.
$260k: Halfling Thief added to boxed game.
$275k: Human Paladin added to boxed game.
$290k: Halfling Fighter added to boxed game.
adhuin wrote: Only 6 scenarios sounds bit too low.
That's only 2-3 board gaming nights for my group!
In the video Ronnie mentions that the 6 scenarios are for introducing new people to the rules of the game. Hopefully the advanced rulebook will have some more.
PS Love the Avatar - Day of the Tentacle was a classic!
adhuin wrote: Only 6 scenarios sounds bit too low.
That's only 2-3 board gaming nights for my group!
In the video Ronnie mentions that the 6 scenarios are for introducing new people to the rules of the game. Hopefully the advanced rulebook will have some more.
PS Love the Avatar - Day of the Tentacle was a classic!
Yep! The 6 scenarios are tutorials/beginner campaign rather than the full game. I don't know what the plans are for additional scenarios, but I would be extremely surprised if there weren't regular backer/$ stretch goals for additional scenarios. The "Book of Depravity" will also be a toolkit for making your own scenarios.
Also, in true Mantic style - the pictures don't do the models justice. The pictures merely show that the models look very nice, when in reality they are absolutely amazingly stunning.
Just making sure I am chiming in as i'll surely be a part of this thread for the weeks to come.
For what it is worth, I can drop one piece of info which is that a mid-run stretch-goal will likely be another fiction anthology (marking the first set in the KoW universe), as the normal slate of writers + editor are already talking (and so far every time I have gotten to work with Mantic, it has been an absolute blast. They are a joy to interact with).
Definitely enjoyed the previous KS threads, hopefully this one will be fun too.
As an opening point, I wonder why they have only artwork of the barbarian, dwarf and elf? The miniatures of those do exist, they were shown on the Beasts of War interview with Ronnie Renton the other day.
Pacific wrote: As an opening point, I wonder why they have only artwork of the barbarian, dwarf and elf? The miniatures of those do exist, they were shown on the Beasts of War interview with Ronnie Renton the other day.
Well it starts on a Monday so the weekend idea is out but it's never been confirmed if they are going to go with a different form of EB in future just ideas that got bounced around.
They acted like the sculpts would all be new.. I think. In the video, from scratch was mentioned.
Sounds neat, especially the combo platter of easy learn-to-play and book of depravity. I'll probably hit up the sweet spot pledge on the first day and see if they'll keep my interest.
I'm concerned if they do a warpath kickstarter this year I'll have spent money here that is rather spend there.. but we'll see.
Battle systems fantasy terrain, which should be coming up soonish, should end up fairly synergistic with this... except in terms of my wallet and affording both!
DaveC wrote: Well it starts on a Monday so the weekend idea is out but it's never been confirmed if they are going to go with a different form of EB in future just ideas that got bounced around.
Thanks. I'm not able to post on the Mantic blog, either. Can someone ask about the EB's?
Something must be up with Mantic's site/forums, too.
I had my password jacked up when I tried to log in.
Had to go through bother of requesting new one and I'm still locked out.
On another note, will these undead be hard plastic or restic?
Looking good, and I'm looking forward to this. I've been wanting a non-Descent intensity Dungeon crawler for awhile, and while I enjoyed the D&D games (Ravenloft, etc) I'm also after something else.
MYTH was an epic fail, and HQ25 was too much of a landmine to go in for in the end. With Mantic you also know they'll actually deliver the fething thing, too. Hoping that it stays modest here actually, without too much outlay, but I'm also willing to go in big.
I would like to stay right at the sweet spot. I just hope they don't do too many fantastic fantasy sculpts that I can't skip... or open up KoW stock for use with the book of depravity...
GrimDork wrote: I would like to stay right at the sweet spot. I just hope they don't do too many fantastic fantasy sculpts that I can't skip... or open up KoW stock for use with the book of depravity...
I kind of hope they do- then I'd have a reason to pick up those Mystery Boxes they keep selling every Xmas. It could be anything- it could even be a boat!
In this case the material should be good. We've seen the Mars Attacks production minis and they seem to be rather nice, this will use exactly the same material.. and by the time it gets made DBX will have been produced in the same material as well so they'll have plenty of experience with it.
The advantage of pre-assembled PVC is that you can take it straight out of the box and get playing, it is a material aimed squarely at the board gamer market.
Looks like they're even handling basing on these as well with sculpted dungeon floor detail on them.
Also, from an economic perspective, it makes sense for Mantic to be board gamer friendly.. Mars Attacks is *already* their best selling board game product purely on the backs of distributor orders (and possibly Topps pulling some strings there too).. the thing with all their previous games is a lot of distributors said no or only put in small orders due to the games requiring assembly with glue.
As someone with too many minis to paint already and pretty much zero free time, having a game that I can play without too much painting is great. I can see myself painting up the heroes, then spray black, drybrush bases heavily grey, drybrush rest of mini lightly with grey and then it being good to go with room to go back and finish the monsters some other time.
Heath Foley did quite a bit of art for this game, and the pieces I've seen look really, really great. Heath was also responsible for much of the Rebs art (if not all) in Deadzone.
If they can manage to clean up their abysmal casting and can translate Heath's art into miniature, there could be some really great models in this game. Unfortunately, that translation hasn't always been seamless for Mantic.
I get the feeling that Bob is just getting warmed up for this one
Cyporiean wrote:
Pacific wrote: As an opening point, I wonder why they have only artwork of the barbarian, dwarf and elf? The miniatures of those do exist, they were shown on the Beasts of War interview with Ronnie Renton the other day.
Maybe the painter isnt done yet?
Yes I wonder if that's it. Minis in the interview video were painted, but only viewing them from a distance I wonder if they are not 'studio standard'?
As ScarletSquig has said, comments from Mars Attack have been positive.
Just had a look at Boardgamegeek, and .. it actually looks pretty upbeat over there. I think this one is definitely aimed at the board gamers as well with the whole 'straight out of the box/no assembly required' thing.
I'm pretty excited about this one. I like the concept. I like the world of Mantica. I like most* of the sculpts. Mantic tends to run a good kickstarter with lots of ups and downs and fabulous prizes. What's not to be positive about?
*I might just have to replace the zombies with something else, anyway. Zombies are verboten in this house.
But I'm still not dropping $100 until I have my Mars Attacks figures in my hand and no sense of regret in my genechtagazoink heart.
So Mantic are just straight up making Warhammer Quest now?
You say that like it's a bad thing...........
The biggest thing for me is I don't want to hear stories (Myth....this product really exists right?) or find out once the product is in hand (Sedition Wars) that describing the rules as a "beta" set is being generous.
I think what worries me most about this is Jake Thornton doing the rules,
He's good, but he's got so much other stuff on his plate what with
polishing dreadball (where the later season teams need some tweeks)
Lots to do with Dreadball extreme
Fixing Deadzone where some of the stuff (mainly the rebels) just does not work, and that's before the later factions appear
Mars attacks and whatever fixes that needs once it's out in the wild (although I guess they may just let that sit as it's really meant to be a stand alone)
good as he is something has to suffer from all this split focus
Does Mantic really need to use Kickstarter? I thought it was intended for up and coming projects that couldn't be funded in any other way besides crowdsourcing. I refuse to believe that this is the only way mantic could bring this product to light, in fact it's not so much a kickstarter as it is a way of guaranteeing pre-orders for your new product. Poor show Mantic.
I think they probably do if they want to do anything 'large',
I'm sure most of their profit is being re-invested in what is basically a young company that's still growing (for example their move to a new site/new warehouse just recently)
traditional funding (eg borrowing from a bank) is not easy for something as niche as a gaming company (with assets that are hard to sell if they need to call in the loan)
and might let them make something comparible to the original Dwarf Kings Hold or Project Pandora,
or a Dreadball with only 2 teams (Ronnie has said that's what would have come out if the KS had failed, and maybe another couple in metal if theyreally wanted to roll the dice on the future of the business)
PapaSoul wrote: Does Mantic really need to use Kickstarter? I thought it was intended for up and coming projects that couldn't be funded in any other way besides crowdsourcing. I refuse to believe that this is the only way mantic could bring this product to light, in fact it's not so much a kickstarter as it is a way of guaranteeing pre-orders for your new product. Poor show Mantic.
Couldn't disagree with you more.
Our hobby is quite small. Even if Mantic is becoming one of the "bigger players," it's still very small.
I think using Kickstarter as a risk mitigation tool for your product is completely appropriate. So much so that I think GW should use it to produce their Specialist games and other "pet projects."
Given what Mantic were able to come up with pre-KS, and what they've been able to do with KS, I think it's a very reasonable way for them to grow their company and cover their production costs while getting a bigger "early adopter" presence for their retail products.
PapaSoul wrote: Does Mantic really need to use Kickstarter? I thought it was intended for up and coming projects that couldn't be funded in any other way besides crowdsourcing. I refuse to believe that this is the only way mantic could bring this product to light, in fact it's not so much a kickstarter as it is a way of guaranteeing pre-orders for your new product. Poor show Mantic.
Not this old chestnut again...
Mantic is still tiny in the grand scheme of things. While they are becoming a fairly big name, they only just surpassed 20 employees last year.
Mantic could probably bring this game to retail without KS, but would have to seriously compromise on components to do so. It would likely be closer to the original DKH where they reuse KoW miniatures rather than having specific board-game miniatures for it. What KS allows them to do is not only produce the minis specifically for the game (new sculpts, molds etc) but expand the game much faster than a retail release would allow, improve the components in the base game and get a community ready from the moment it launches.
So, Dreadball is often used as a case study. Mantic could have released it without KS. There would be a print run of 2000 copies which were estimated to take 12 months to sell. Two teams in plastic, two teams in metal. The game would be a slow seller because the community would take time to build up and it would likely be a year before Mantic could think about releasing anything new for it - and likely in metal rather than plastic.
The Kickstarter sold more than 3000 copies straight off the bat. It upgraded the core box with additional minis. It funded 10 teams in plastic, plus 12 boosters for those teams - most of which were in plastic - plus numerous MVPs, all in plastic. The rest of the first 6000 copy print run sold out through retail pre-orders. They are now on their 5th/6th(?) 6000 copy print run just over 18 months after release so about fifteen times more copies sold than their best projections if they did it directly to retail and with a solid, established community now in place.
The sequel is now being produced with another 12 teams, plus associated MVPs. Through retail release they would now only just be thinking about making the 7th and 8th teams for the original run. There's a good argument that without KS, Mantic wouldn't be able to build the community needed for such a game in such a short length of time so the game might not have been produced.
PapaSoul wrote: Does Mantic really need to use Kickstarter? I thought it was intended for up and coming projects that couldn't be funded in any other way besides crowdsourcing. I refuse to believe that this is the only way mantic could bring this product to light, in fact it's not so much a kickstarter as it is a way of guaranteeing pre-orders for your new product. Poor show Mantic.
Going the traditional route for a games company means you release a core set, then an expansion several months later. New releases trickle out which in turn leaves some substantial gaps in the line-up and has the added effect of putting the entire project at risk of failing due to an ill-timed release. The classic example is DreadBall, which Daedlah covered well enough. Keep in mind though that smaller runs would also drive up costs, since making thousands of something is cheaper per unit than making hundreds, and that cost invariably gets passed on to the consumer.
Trying to play alternate history for a moment, I'm not sure DeadZone would have all the different battlezone types if not for the KS, and their absence and needed on-going work for DZ might have complicated getting the license from Topps for MA. That in turn would push back production of that game, assuming they still eventually got the license, which would be a major loss to the company. It also begs the question of how DBX would have gone in terms of material had they not been doing the production work for MA and had some early results.
Instead, they're able to launch projects of significantly larger scope and, unlike many companies that use KS, carry them off in roughly the time they say they will. The consumer gets a goodly discount for the risks they're incurring, Mantic gets the benefits of scale, and the market gets a new fleshed-out game system. I'm not sure who's losing out completely here, though it does arguably suck for retailers depending how KS-involved the locals are.
I look forward to seeing the offering, but this is likely ill-timed for me financially. It would take an incredibly impressive pitch, which may end up happening, before I'd go in. Not sure I need to add yet more plastic to the growing pile glaring at me accusingly.
Krinsath wrote: (...) I'm not sure who's losing out completely here, though it does arguably suck for retailers depending how KS-involved the locals are.(...)y.
While on the face of it this is a concern, it hasn't materialised for any of Mantics projects. Both Dreadball and Deadzone sold more retail copies through their initial print run in the first month than they were projected to sell in the first twelve months, let alone additional sales for the extra teams/strike teams funded through KS.
Will hope to get an early bird on this. Depending what stretches there are, I may drop out later on if it does not develop in a way that gives me what I am looking for.
The one thing I hope they've learned about the EBs is not to create 2 (or more) levels you might possibly want so that people have to park them on separate accounts and then decide later thus artifically inflating the start and causing a drop off near the end. Have 1 level and stick with it. Gets everything levels are great but not from day 1 when there's no clue what it will contain at the end.
So Mantic are just straight up making Warhammer Quest now?
You say that like it's a bad thing...........
The biggest thing for me is I don't want to hear stories (Myth....this product really exists right?) or find out once the product is in hand (Sedition Wars) that describing the rules as a "beta" set is being generous.
I know it's off topic, but what happened to Myth? I remeber thinking it looked pretty cool...
On topic, this looks pretty cool. If it's like warhammer quest that'll be awesome, been playing that a lot on my iPad.
Krinsath wrote: (...) I'm not sure who's losing out completely here, though it does arguably suck for retailers depending how KS-involved the locals are.(...)y.
While on the face of it this is a concern, it hasn't materialised for any of Mantics projects. Both Dreadball and Deadzone sold more retail copies through their initial print run in the first month than they were projected to sell in the first twelve months, let alone additional sales for the extra teams/strike teams funded through KS.
As I said, it's an arguable concern and it's primarily going to be locality-specific. As the usage of Internet goods/services in an area goes up, demand for retailers goes down (in general, not just gaming). If a market has such a situation, buying into a KS as a store is risky because there's no way to compete on price with a KS and somewhat difficult to offer value adds to compete with discounters. If everyone in the area who would be interested already got what they wanted, a store can be left holding onto a lot of stock.
Bones is the classic example of that, but that one was wildly popular where a local market could be depleted. Obviously there's a nice sweet spot where a project is popular enough to have widespread notice but not popular enough to have saturated the market, and I'd not be surprised to find that Mantic typically falls into this category. However, if you had to say who "loses" in a KS project, the retail sector is the most likely to lose on a completed project.
To steer this back on topic, games like this are an interesting riddle for retail. On the one hand, it's a genre that's well-loved and existed forever and still generates lots of interest. On the other, it's a well-loved genre that already has shelf space in many stores with Descent (usually) and similar games which are already well-supported. How they entice store owners to give over some of that space when their post-KoWKS have been reasonably unique offerings will be interesting.
Seems like a project that's not going to have a lot of high cost variance between pledge levels that would cause a lot of pledge parking ie MA was $100($90)/$150($140)/$300, DBX was $100/$150($140)/$385($350)
I see this one being having a $40, $60 and $100 structure (ignoring the super high vanity pledges and the low pdf rules only pledges) with earlybirds $10 below. There's a small enough difference between them all that I can't see parking being a problem like it was the last two times.
Yeah, for sure. Though i wonder what the base price of the boxed game will be... 40 seems.. optimistic, unless you're talking about just getting the minis and some rules or something, then maybe not as much so.
I can probably stick out the sweet spot 100 pledge, as long as battle systems is gentle with their ideal sized fantasy range pledge.
They usually have a low-end buy-in, look at recon for dz and uhh.. whatever it was they had for the others, my mind blanks. I think dbx had a pretty small pledge too didn't it.
PapaSoul wrote: Does Mantic really need to use Kickstarter? I thought it was intended for up and coming projects that couldn't be funded in any other way besides crowdsourcing. I refuse to believe that this is the only way mantic could bring this product to light, in fact it's not so much a kickstarter as it is a way of guaranteeing pre-orders for your new product. Poor show Mantic.
If it works, and they can get it to the press, then on to the public I say !@#$ it, go for it. Why is it a poor show?
Have you put together any good games and set them to market in this economy lately?
I'm still waiting on my Mars Attacks, and I'm glad I put the breaks on getting just the base set. I have a few of these fantasy guys and an undead army that I have that was quite a bit undersized, if this game is to scale, I'm all up for it if the quality is more improved then their first KS project.
Good games being crowd sourced is a good idea. HOWEVER, if the figures are crap, that's where I would draw the line. If the project is crap, that's where I would draw the line. If the producer took the money, spent a few years on excuses, and KS still didn't do anything about it, that's where I would draw the line.
Mantic deliver- albeit shaky sometimes, but they are very personable, and don't mind discussing if something is gaked up. Unlike other companies and projects on the market. As long as your having that communication, there is nothing wrong with the funding, wherever it comes from.
So Mantic are just straight up making Warhammer Quest now?
You say that like it's a bad thing...........
The biggest thing for me is I don't want to hear stories (Myth....this product really exists right?) or find out once the product is in hand (Sedition Wars) that describing the rules as a "beta" set is being generous.
I know it's off topic, but what happened to Myth? I remeber thinking it looked pretty cool...
I don't know because peeps like myself outside North America haven't got even their wave 1 yet (though I think it's all coming as a single wave). Feedback on the rules seem generally to not have been well laid out and they did some videos to help explain them, they're reprinting some of the cards which will be availble at some future date somehow as well.
Myth is still perplexed with the distribution problem.
Merc's biggest issue? They have no experience in distribution on the scale that they are now playing at. If I were to advise them, I'd initiate them to get a distribution center with two or three specialists to focus on distribution. ( Warehouse with a direct account with either Fedex/ UPS/ DHL/ Postal service.) Two to three trucks to push product to the distribution centers, and two or three more keyboard crunchers to tally in the info for orders.)
As to what they are working with now, a team of monkeys couldn't gak it up any worse.
I/E reference the KS updates for how Gaked and inexperienced they are at distribution.
Serious as a heart attack, two kids and a dog could have figured it out by now, and everyone would have had product in hand by the first of the year. They are playing catch up, and wait and see while people get more PO'ed at them by the day.
PapaSoul wrote: Does Mantic really need to use Kickstarter? I thought it was intended for up and coming projects that couldn't be funded in any other way besides crowdsourcing. I refuse to believe that this is the only way mantic could bring this product to light, in fact it's not so much a kickstarter as it is a way of guaranteeing pre-orders for your new product. Poor show Mantic.
In the Beasts of War interview, Ronnie Renton said that, without the Mars KS, they could not have sold to international markets. Also, the retail demand was 5x the sales in the KS. Or something.
I checked out the Dreadball and Mars Attacks KS. Hope DSKS doesn't become *that* complicated. And still no info at how they're handling EB's. I'd rather have an idea of what time I should wake up (5:30am on a Monday??) than these dwarven runes...!
Already been confirmed that it's your standard normal EBs - limited number first come first served. Mantic are pretty good at adding additional ones on the first day so expect the first lot to be say $90 then the next to be $91 (or $95 depending on numbers) and so on. (note it's not even confirmed that the sweet spot is $100 yet it's a safe bet though).
PapaSoul wrote: Does Mantic really need to use Kickstarter? I thought it was intended for up and coming projects that couldn't be funded in any other way besides crowdsourcing. I refuse to believe that this is the only way mantic could bring this product to light, in fact it's not so much a kickstarter as it is a way of guaranteeing pre-orders for your new product. Poor show Mantic.
In the Beasts of War interview, Ronnie Renton said that, without the Mars KS, they could not have sold to international markets. Also, the retail demand was 5x the sales in the KS. Or something.
That was probably referring to dreadball which has sold 5x more at retail than they did on the ks.
Well they sold a ridiculous amount of mars attacks to retailers in other countries for the release, it's the biggest thing they've sold so far. If they were doing it piecemeal this probably wouldn't have happened.
I know it's off topic, but what happened to Myth? I remeber thinking it looked pretty cool...
I don't know because peeps like myself outside North America haven't got even their wave 1 yet (though I think it's all coming as a single wave). Feedback on the rules seem generally to not have been well laid out and they did some videos to help explain them, they're reprinting some of the cards which will be availble at some future date somehow as well.
I sold my pledge for what I paid for it. I would have taken the refund, otherwise. Even if I hadn't, I'd certainly be looking at the refund with this coming out now.
GrimDork wrote: Well they sold a ridiculous amount of mars attacks to retailers in other countries for the release, it's the biggest thing they've sold so far. If they were doing it piecemeal this probably wouldn't have happened.
Yeah I just thought there was probably confusion with the 5x number since we've known that dreadball has sold 5x at retail for a while now, would be a coincidence if MA sold a similar ratio.
The sculpts look better than usual for Mantic. I'm not sure I'll back as I already have many games to scratch the dungeon crawl itch. I think an option to get cheap undead miniatures from Mantic would be a good add on, upgrading your board game pieces to full miniatures that are still regarded as some of Mantics best work.
Zond wrote: The sculpts look better than usual for Mantic. I'm not sure I'll back as I already have many games to scratch the dungeon crawl itch. I think an option to get cheap undead miniatures from Mantic would be a good add on, upgrading your board game pieces to full miniatures that are still regarded as some of Mantics best work.
Are Mantic mini's less than average in quality? I've never backed their games before but this one has my attention. Is there a miniature line that their mini's can be compared against? Reaper/Zombicide?
That's all down to personal preference Malkaven. I don't think Mantic generally produce high quality sculpts, but they have the odd gem. Others will think differently. I'd just trawl their most recent kickstarter offerings and see if you like them.
Malkaven wrote: Are Mantic mini's less than average in quality? I've never backed their games before but this one has my attention. Is there a miniature line that their mini's can be compared against? Reaper/Zombicide?
Their undead line from Kings of War is very highly spoken of (don't own any yet myself), and that's pretty relevant to a game where the bad guys are all going to be undead, so that's a starting point.
Otherwise, complaints about restic and the "tiny leg trolls" aside, their sculpts are for the most part simply a matter of taste - the best example being the Elves, which I personally like, but some people hate because they're thin and graceful rather than solid and comically proportioned like the Elves from GW
I think the restic minis are fine if you're only trying to do 5-10 at a time and break for something different in between. And i've had a lot of fun working with their undead.
Spoiler:
Deadzone/warpath enforcers, painted really simply for quick tabletop action.
mantic undead along with a couple of older gw skeletons mixed in.
ecurtz wrote: They can be quite nice, but they've certainly never sent a bad sculpt back to be redone. I personally think the Reaper comparison is pretty good.
Agreed!
Mantic seems to not be able to receive a WIP (or maybe not ask/review WIPs?) from a sculptor, say "No, not quite!" and ask for it to be re-done/fixed.
ecurtz wrote: They can be quite nice, but they've certainly never sent a bad sculpt back to be redone. I personally think the Reaper comparison is pretty good.
Agreed!
Mantic seems to not be able to receive a WIP (or maybe not ask/review WIPs?) from a sculptor, say "No, not quite!" and ask for it to be re-done/fixed.
Maybe?
I dunno, how many objectively bad sculpts have they let through? This is before the production stage with mould lines and where the MaA went wrong too we're talking about. Tiny legged trolls, nuns on cats, anything else?
But good point - it might be more of an egregious mold line placement thing.
After all, art being a subjective thing and all that!
As I understand it Men at Arms were a good sculpt that got ruined in China translating from one program to another, they had no QA to check it after that stage, and then had the whole gakky production run done with no contractual ability to reject and have them redone for nothing on those grounds, live and learn thing.
From what I have seen Mantic's miniature style and moulding quality has improved with every release. While not perfect there has been marked and steady improvement.
Alpharius wrote: Mantic seems to not be able to receive a WIP (or maybe not ask/review WIPs?) from a sculptor, say "No, not quite!" and ask for it to be re-done/fixed.
I thought the only feedback Mantic ever gave to sculptors is "Make the arms bigger and the legs smaller!".
Alpharius wrote: Mantic seems to not be able to receive a WIP (or maybe not ask/review WIPs?) from a sculptor, say "No, not quite!" and ask for it to be re-done/fixed.
I thought the only feedback Mantic ever gave to sculptors is "Make the arms bigger and the legs smaller!".
I look forward to NOT-Warhammer quest at retail, once I can judge the materials visually. No amount of Kickstarter Handy-Js and puppies will get me to pre-buy a mantic product ever again.
Those two figures seen so far look nice. If they come without massive mold lines and sprue chunks taken out of the side of their face then I will be happy to get them!
Considering what a colossal failure MYTH has ended up being and the poor communication and shakiness of HQ25, there is a ball on a tee ready to be hit out of the park should someone be able to actually do it right.
Riquende wrote: I reckon they'll have spy cam on you to find out exactly where you'll be making the purchase, and get a really shonky copy there just in time.
I will be using a secret shopper program muhahahahahha. No way for the grand conspiracy to restic me up some massive mold lines!
Looks good! I hope the bases are included. We have heard that these are 'minimal assembly' miniatures - Practically any boardgame I can think of would already have the miniatures attached to the bases, so I'm guessing might well be the case with these too?
Does anyone know what route Mars Attacks took, might be some indication?
Pacific wrote: Looks good! I hope the bases are included. We have heard that these are 'minimal assembly' miniatures - Practically any boardgame I can think of would already have the miniatures attached to the bases, so I'm guessing might well be the case with these too?
Does anyone know what route Mars Attacks took, might be some indication?
Mars Attacks has integral bases the size of a regular 25mm circle base, fully expect the DKQ minis to have integral square bases the size of a normal 25mm square base as well
I'm hoping these dungeon cobble stone bases are included and not just tarted up advertising pieces by the Mantic painting team.
That's a good looking archer. I hope there are 2 different designs (I'd be delighted with 3, but would be amazed), then I'd get rid of my existing Mantic hybrids and start trying to make units out of them (hopefully we'll be able to add singles on the pledge manager).
Nice skeletal archer! I have a big mantic undead army already, but I'd be happy to add more to it. I hope those bases are 20mm, same as all the other undead though. And I hope they scale properly.
We'll see. I expect the material to be a little irritating. But I'm mostly interested in the game and tiles- I have enough fantasy miniatures to populate dungeons myself if I need to.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Base size is standard KOW manic supplied base for the unit type in KOW - Ronnie said multiple times/places these will fit in your KOW units easily.
Not hard to see how the KS could feature add ons like "20 skeleton archers" to get fantasy generic/KOW backers.
KoW plastic minis have a small circular base moulded as part of the miniature (which they can stand on their own, as in the Orginal DKH) that fits into a matching circular slot on larger 20mm or 25mm square bases. What that means is no premade cool cobblestone base. It would be a lot of work to saw each miniature off of its moulded on round base and mounting (pinning is probably best but you could get away with super gluring) on either a homemade or aftermarket cobblestone base.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This play test photo with Ronnie Renton, ?, and Jake Thornton was posted on the Mantic Blog. If you go to the orginal link and zoom in to the left of Ronnie Renton's arm (blue shirt) you can clearly see a sprue that has what looks to me like dungeon floor tiles and arches.
NTRabbit wrote: They're playing on card though, and have repeatedly ruled out plastic floor tiles
Agreed and I'd prefer card too. But there is no stopping this hype train! Choo CHOO! I am not familiar with the Sci-Fi terrian sets maybe they are from that?
This play test photo with Ronnie Renton, ?, and Jake Thornton was posted on the Mantic Blog. If you go to the orginal link and zoom in to the left of Ronnie Renton's arm (blue shirt) you can clearly see a sprue that has what looks to me like dungeon floor tiles and arches.
If mantic could make their deadzone/mars attacks terrain which all lay flat as dungeon floor opposed to walls, that would be awesome. I don't see why they would rule out plastic tiles when that is something they can actually do pretty well.
nkelsch wrote: If mantic could make their deadzone/mars attacks terrain which all lay flat as dungeon floor opposed to walls, that would be awesome. I don't see why they would rule out plastic tiles when that is something they can actually do pretty well.
Because they tested it, and apparently couldn't get them to lay flat once the dungeon reached a decent dize
That's why they need to make mousepad tiles.
You explore more bits as you lay down the next tile-pad(s).
Characters with a map or magic aid will allow you to peek at the next two tile-pad and to select the one you prefer to use.
In that image all the components are either KOW or the old Dwarf game.
My guess is that the figures are on a square base that glues on top of the current bases. No reason at all why the base of the pre assembled figures has to be round and to fit in with KOW it just needs to be the right size - they could do the base moulded like a dungeon floor and any gaps can be filled easily by people. Alternately, given we know the EB for this will be extra limited models as opposed to pricing - I would expect this to be a backer number or time limited as opposed to preset and this would also stop the Mantic KS trend of pledging £1 and getting the same benefits as people who pledged the full amount months before....
Mouse mat tiles were covered at the Open Day by Ronnie, so unless they have a change of heart then they are still a no due to cost, weight, no double sided printing, don't join up well, printing quality due to material.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Alternately, given we know the EB for this will be extra limited models as opposed to pricing - I would expect this to be a backer number or time limited as opposed to preset and this would also stop the Mantic KS trend of pledging £1 and getting the same benefits as people who pledged the full amount months before....
TwilightSparkles wrote: Alternately, given we know the EB for this will be extra limited models as opposed to pricing - I would expect this to be a backer number or time limited as opposed to preset and this would also stop the Mantic KS trend of pledging £1 and getting the same benefits as people who pledged the full amount months before....
I like the idea of Dwarf Kings Quest, but I'm realizing that it will take an impressive showing on Mantic's part to get me to back this, especially if the set spot buy in is $100.
After playing miniatures games for twenty years I have put together small collections of skeletons, zombies, dwarfs, orcs, etc. Even though these new skeletons look great, it would hurt the value for me if half the figures are undead.
As time has gone by I have come to have more specific desires for my new figures. Now I look for more unusual, or unique styled models. I backed the new SDE mostly because of the variety of plant monsters of which I currently have few. If DKQ is a generic fantasy starter game I will likely pas even though I'm sure it will do well.
Bases are 25mm, integral to the miniature so no gluing needed and they come textured.
It will be discounted Early Bird pledge level. It was mooted at the open day about including a figure for a weekend or something but it will be the standard amount of limited number, discounted pledge levels.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the painted wizard has been released...
Black Nexus wrote: Bases are 25mm, integral to the miniature so no gluing needed and they come textured.
It will be discounted Early Bird pledge level. It was mooted at the open day about including a figure for a weekend or something but it will be the standard amount of limited number, discounted pledge levels.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the painted wizard has been released...
If the bases are 25mm for everything then it will impact ease of things like the Undead being used in KoW armies.
Most infantry models in KoW (Orcs and some other infantry excepted) are on 20mm bases.
This is the first Mantic product that I'm thinking of backing, but I really don't know much about their quality. I have some idea regarding their miniatures since I can see pictures online so I know what to expect on that front. I was hoping to get some insight into the following:
1) How are their rules, especially in standalone games (ie Dreadball and Mars Attacks)?
2) Is their Kickstarter fulfillment usually satisfactory?
The rules are pretty good on the whole. On here, a lot of Fantasy players rave about Kings of War (and from my own look at it, it seems solid). Warpath is still in development so naturally has a few issues, but it is fun at least. Deadzone is just great, and I can't speak for the others.
As far as Kickstarter goes, I believe they have a better track record (timing wise) than most other wargaming KS .
I've heard very mixed reviews of their rules. It's hard to tell since their games are fairly new, so half the people I talk to are basing their opinion on just reading the rules, or playing a game once
I find the rules to be great. - There's a couple of things that can end up being a pain, but aside from that, rules are awesome.
And any major issues once identified are usually updated for free on the FAQs website and published in an Amendments section in whatever the next book release is.
I enjoy the heck out of Kings of War. It reminds me of the really old editions of Warhammer fantasy before it became herohammer, mathhammer, hordehammer or deathstarhammer. It flows smoothly and is quickly picked up. More of beer and pretzels games though so if your looking for something very detailed......keep looking
Galen wrote: I've heard very mixed reviews of their rules. It's hard to tell since their games are fairly new, so half the people I talk to are basing their opinion on just reading the rules, or playing a game once
I've played more games of Deadzone since it got Kickstarted than I have of 40k in the past 6 years.
It's a fantastic system with some balance issues. You need to outright ban 2 or 3 models, and a few aren't worth taking. Apart from that it's brilliant and by far the smoothest system released in the past 6 years that I've seen (and I'm the sort who even buys obscure no-name garage company pdfs off Wargames Vault)
Unix wrote: This is the first Mantic product that I'm thinking of backing, but I really don't know much about their quality. I have some idea regarding their miniatures since I can see pictures online so I know what to expect on that front. I was hoping to get some insight into the following:
1) How are their rules, especially in standalone games (ie Dreadball and Mars Attacks)?
2) Is their Kickstarter fulfillment usually satisfactory?
Rules are great (Mars Attacks is looking even better than Deadzone IMO, and Dreaball is an extremely good set of rules).
Kickstarter fulfillment is on time and has been very well received. Their first KS (Kings of War) was a bit shaky, and Dreadball had a few issues but since then it has largely been fine, with any delays being a month or two, and even then they split the shipment off to ship what they have in the warehouse immediately rather than waiting around for the final bits. There is none of the 6-12 month delay commonly seen in other Kickstarters.
My one question about “Dungeon Saga: Dwarf King’s Quest”. Is there a chance we will see stats/rules for classic monsters not currently in Mantic’s miniature line but that are staples of the dungeon crawling genre? i.e. manticores, griffins, dragons, hydras, Basilisk/cockatrice, Minotaurs, etc.
Jake Thornton says:
July 29, 2014 at 11:04 am
I’d like to see this sort of generic monster too. However, I think we’ll have to see where the Kickstarter goes on this one. The further it goes, the more we’ll add – it’s that simple.
Unix wrote: This is the first Mantic product that I'm thinking of backing, but I really don't know much about their quality. I have some idea regarding their miniatures since I can see pictures online so I know what to expect on that front. I was hoping to get some insight into the following:
1) How are their rules, especially in standalone games (ie Dreadball and Mars Attacks)?
2) Is their Kickstarter fulfillment usually satisfactory?
1) I haven't played any of their rules systems personally (lack of opponents and time) so I can't comment personally, but much of what I hear about the rules is very positive.
2)I consider Mantic to have the best track record so far in terms of fulfillment. They sent out some downright terrible models from their KoW kickstarter, but they were largely on time, and every kickstarter since then has been largely on time. You won't get any unexpected six month plus delays pledging to a Mantic Kickstarter.
I've only played a couple of games of Deadzone but really enjoyed it. It suffers a little bit for me as I already play Infinity, and both games fall into roughly the same 'genre' of small sci-fi skirmish games, even though they are very different realisations of that concept. Hope to play more though when the Forgefather set arrives!
Dreadball on the other hand is bloody fantastic. Really fast game, very quick to pick up and play, and just generally a great deal of fun. My only criticism is the crappy league system, which places as much importance on damage dealing to the other team as scoring. Gives away Jake not being a being a big (real) team sports fan I think, but otherwise a great game.
As for their Kickstarters I struggle to think of another wargames company that is so organised with them, has them so professionally laid out, and seems so adept at delivering the goods on time.
There were a few 'niggles' with Mantic when they first appeared, and as these have been solved new ones have appeared. But, that being said, you get the feeling of a genuine enthusiasm behind their releases, and a desire to improve. I'm pretty confident about this KS and think it will be well worth the money even as a standard-type pledge.
Bosses "monster heroes if you will": Banshee, Zombie Troll Shaman, Undead Dwarf King, Mortibus the Necromancer.
12. The core rules are the Dwarf King's Hold rules which are being refined and balanced. Core game play will be for everyone "children" and families. Advanced rules will be in blocks so you can choose which to add to the core basic game for added complexity.
The interview with Jake Thornton starts at: 15:30 ends at 34:12
I dunno. At least as far as Deadzone is concerned, it is pretty darn cinematic. - Dudes dashing from cover to cover. Peeking out to try to get that clear shot.
And then the grenades and blast weapons.... Oh the grenades....
I only meant it in reference to its use by a certain games company, something which has been generally understood to be a by-word for shoddy rule writing and a lack of concern for game balance.
Pacific wrote: I only meant it in reference to its use by a certain games company, something which has been generally understood to be a by-word for shoddy rule writing and a lack of concern for game balance.
(For those that missed that!)
It's past cinematic, and into "forging the narrative" now
Yeah, Deadzone is effortlessly cinematic in the true sense of the word.
When there's a huge mutated alien one square from clearing the board and scoring a couple of points, and a lowly human steps up at point-blank range, opens up with laser fire and somehow downs the monstrosity, that's cinematic. (even moreso when he did it again next turn!)
When a sniper needs to move but also has a perfect shot, so he pulls out a pistol and puts a bullet between the eyes of a rebel while darting across a rooftop, that's cinematic.
When a giant turtle-dinosaur goes mental and takes out half a squad in one round, that is cinematic!
So I'm really unfamiliar with PVC as a medium. What are pros and cons of it? Does it hold more or less detail than resin/metal and if so, how much? How about flash/mold lines? I have heard that it's pretty hard to remove it on PVC models.
I want to like this so much but the material is giving me second thoughts. Please try to convince me either way, yay or nay?
PVC is a versatile plastic, and it comes in a few different forms. The hardest form you'll find is used on the plumbing in an average house; the hardest form you'll find used in gaming is the material Warmahordes is made out of.
These minis are going to be a softer version of PVC - the detail is pretty good, but not quite as good as the best ABS plastic or resin. In contrast, they're bendy and able to take more punishment, which suits a boardgame. The flash and mould lines aren't difficult to clean up, there just tends to be more of it to clean up usually - however the Mars Attacks minis, which are due to reach backers soon and are identical in material and production to what DKQ is going to be, appeared to have little to no mould lines to clean.
These minis are going to be a softer version of PVC - the detail is pretty good, but not quite as good as the best ABS plastic or resin. In contrast, they're bendy and able to take more punishment, which suits a boardgame. The flash and mould lines aren't difficult to clean up, there just tends to be more of it to clean up usually - however the Mars Attacks minis, which are due to reach backers soon and are identical in material and production to what DKQ is going to be, appeared to have little to no mould lines to clean.
Are these 'restic' or are people trying to tell us why 'this time, it will be different' and we will see the same garbage figures with the same terrible material and casting process.
And I have seen some pretty terrible mold lines on Mars Attacks!
With mantic, it is Hard Plastic or go home. Every KS they claim to fix restic and it seems to not only not get fixed but get worse. So can you be clear? Renaming the material every KS to confuse people doesn't help.
heartserenade wrote: So I'm really unfamiliar with PVC as a medium. What are pros and cons of it? Does it hold more or less detail than resin/metal and if so, how much? How about flash/mold lines? I have heard that it's pretty hard to remove it on PVC models.
It's not impossible, but "you get what you pay for". I spend a *lot* of time trimming off mold lines from the soft boardgame plastic, because I own mini's through boardgames. I saw your best paint jobs, and, if you don't intend to play DS, I think you're better off paying for more expensive metal and resin. You could always just pledge and cancel towards the end it if you're not happy with what you're getting. I do hope they'll offer sprues of existing models as, say, cheap add-ons during the KS. I mean, DKH was originally made to use their existing miniatures, and DS was made to be compatible with KoW miniatures.
Are these 'restic' or are people trying to tell us why 'this time, it will be different' and we will see the same garbage figures with the same terrible material and casting process.
And I have seen some pretty terrible mold lines on Mars Attacks?
With mantic, it is Hard Plastic or go home. Every KS they claim to fix restic and it seems to not only not get fixed but get worse. So can you be clear? Renaming the material every KS to confuse people doesn't help.
This is the same material as Gears of War and Loka, but with an improved process for better detail that we should see in Mars Attacks and then DBX; this has been explained many times, but you do enjoy ignoring it. And I'm not sure which Mars Attacks minis you've looked at, but the pictures from the random box they had sent over from China looked pretty good to me.
As for your claim about hard plastic or go home, seeya later. There's nothing wrong with the restic in Deadzone, and the restic has been getting better - easy enough to compare across the timeline.
Are these 'restic' or are people trying to tell us why 'this time, it will be different' and we will see the same garbage figures with the same terrible material and casting process.
And I have seen some pretty terrible mold lines on Mars Attacks?
With mantic, it is Hard Plastic or go home. Every KS they claim to fix restic and it seems to not only not get fixed but get worse. So can you be clear? Renaming the material every KS to confuse people doesn't help.
This is the same material as Gears of War and Loka, but with an improved process for better detail; this has been explained many times, but you do enjoy ignoring it every time you drop by a Mantic thread to have a dig. And I'm not sure which Mars Attacks minis you've looked at, but the pictures from the random box they had sent over from China looked pretty good to me.
As for your claim about hard plastic or go home, seeya later. There's nothing wrong with the restic in Deadzone, and the restic has been getting better.
Except by all observable and impartial evidence, it isn't actually getting better. (IE: google "Deadzone Mold Lines" in google pictures) The material is fundamentally flawed. And by basically trying to mislead unaware posters who have seen the issues with restic and think PVC... it is new and better maybe? you don't do mantic any favors.
There is a large market for the next big Dungeon Crawler and the last two Big KS which attempted to fill the niche failed. Mantic is setting themselves to fail before they even take a swing because restic is terrible. Changing the names of the material to claim it is 'new' only misleads people and causes more harm than good.
So it looks like the model part of this game is 100% off limits due to the sub-standard material. Maybe they will release a 'rules only' at retail so if the rules are good, we can use other companies models.
heartserenade wrote: So I'm really unfamiliar with PVC as a medium. What are pros and cons of it? Does it hold more or less detail than resin/metal and if so, how much? How about flash/mold lines? I have heard that it's pretty hard to remove it on PVC models.
It's not impossible, but "you get what you pay for". I spend a *lot* of time trimming off mold lines from the soft boardgame plastic, because I own mini's through boardgames. I saw your best paint jobs, and, if you don't intend to play DS, I think you're better off paying for more expensive metal and resin. You could always just pledge and cancel towards the end it if you're not happy with what you're getting. I do hope they'll offer sprues of existing models as, say, cheap add-ons during the KS. I mean, DKH was originally made to use their existing miniatures, and DS was made to be compatible with KoW miniatures.
Eh, if it's not that expensive I can give it a shot, at least I can use them as unit fillers or just game tokens (or NPCs) for DnD. Hopefully I'll get pleasantly surprised by the quality.
Shame, because I really love the greens and would buy them in a heartbeat if they were made in metal or resin, but I guess those mediums are not optimal for boardgame play.
Is the material similar to the DnD minis line, by any chance?
Alpharius wrote: I'm all for giving them a chance here, but I think quite a bit of the restic in Deadzone was terrible.
The only things that given me trouble so far are Wrath and the Marauder Pyro, and I think they're just not quite designed right more than anything else.
Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!
I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?
Alpharius wrote: Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!
I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?
I'll pay that
Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.
Shadows of Brimstone is causing a bit of a ruckus over this issue - even though they commented mid-campaign that some/many of the miniatures would require assembly.
I'm just glad that there will be a lot of 'hard plastic' over there too!
Alpharius wrote: Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!
I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?
I'll pay that
Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.
Mold design is a result of sculpt, not material. Lots of companies have hard plastic single-piece models. They just have to have poses which work with a one-piece casting.
Yeah, to repeat (In the hopes that repetition works - it does for my dog...). This plastic nothing like restic at all. It's not a new, tweaked formula of restic. It is a completely different thing from it.
In saying that, I can see the concerns that the detail may be a little softer than what someone would be hoping for. However, having done a whole load of Star Trek Attack Wing repaints recently, even having only a few of the old Loka minis as an example in hand, I can say that this material is far better than whatever made up those ships.
And, of course, it's not as if a Barbarian, Elf archer, Dwarf soldier and Human wizard plus a few skeletons are the hardest miniatures to get a hold on in the world if it does all go horribly wrong (which I really doubt...)
I saw some awesome D&D-esque minis on sale at the Board Games Expo made for RPGs that were just gorgeous from Otherworld Miniatures. And seem relatively reasonably priced too, for major characters at least.
Alpharius wrote: Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!
I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?
Hard plastic tooling is good, but the sculpting can be off ie. Men at Arms. Think that was a poor translation of manual sculpting to digital, so it theoretically shouldn't happen again as I don't think they're doing that anymore?
Restic is basically guaranteed to have annoying and time consuming mould lines, but imo the casting quality - the crisp detail and what not - was really good on deadzone stuff. Better than it was in Dreadball thanks to being the second iteration of the restic formula. It probably vaires less than resin in casting quality from what I've seen, but more than plastic ofc.
This new (for them) PVC stuff is single piece, minimal to nonexistent mould lines but a little less sharp detail supposedly.
I'll add that Mantic has improved substantially based on criticism received:
- After changing material without telling us, they were much more upfront about it when we complained.
- After complaining about restic from Dreadball they improved the formula for Deadzone.
- After complaining about rushed products resulting in them being poor they've taken their time and gone back multiple times to ensure they're good - ie. the delayed 3rd wave of plastic enforcers compared to the dodgy Men at Arms.
They're still not perfect, but they've improved and done so in response to what problems we've had with them which I think is admirable. They're always on time or close to it (at least for the ones I've been in) which is rare with kickstarters. I can understand if people want to wait for retail or don't like the Mantic philosophy, but so long as we get good value with the kickstarter I'm still happy to back Mantic in them if I like the product.
I'm not familiar with Reaper Bones either. I know, SHOCK HORROR.
How about Dust Tactics? Similar to the plastic they use?
One thing I've noticed is that the greens hold better detail than the painted version, but only slightly less so. I'll still buy them if the price is right, but it's not like I'm aiming to give them the most superb of paintjobs. It's just a shame because I am in love with the green sculpts (yes, more than other barbarian/human cleric/human mage/elf archer models) and would buy them in a heartbeat if they came out in metal, hard resin or hard plastic.
Alpharius wrote: Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!
I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?
I'll pay that
Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.
Mold design is a result of sculpt, not material. Lots of companies have hard plastic single-piece models. They just have to have poses which work with a one-piece casting.
The problem with this is the tendency for poses to default to either the "I work for the council" one hand by the belt and the other holding a weapon vertically or the "squatting for a poo" look. See 4th ed warhammer speamen(elf or gobbo), softer materials and molds allow a lot more variety in single piece minatures
Another vote for the Deadzone Minis are Dreadful party.
My Stage 2s have halos around their faces, the Stage 1 is so bad I can't bring myself to talk about it. The Stage 3s are actually pretty decent, and I'm looking forward to finally getting some paint on them!
The Orx Big Suits... garbage. Not one piece fit where or how it should. They look sh*t too, compared to the Dreadball Orx. Why go for such a different aesthetic?
However this wildly off topic so let me jump back on to that train and say:
I'm all in for DKQ and I think Mantic will deliver. This sounds like a hugely ambitious project and with so many dissenters on their previous KS campaigns I think they may have listened.
Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.
Amazingly enough, I've had boardgames with hard plastic figures, some of which required assembly, I bought at a big retail store...
ANd I recently got the new Battlelore, which though softer plastic, does have a couple figures needing assembly.
I'm still not sure what Mantic has said to get everyone exited about this. Everyone wants a good dungeon crawl, but as we've seen those are easier said than done. What have they shown to put this on the rules/figure quality level of, say, Descent? Descent has nearly 50 figures and retails for $80. Heck, the D&D board game Wrath of Ashardalon comes with 39 figures, including a dragon mini for $65. Both include piles of dungeon tiles. For a $100 dollar price tag I would expect dungeon saga to include 60-80 figures or I don't know where the value is. And that would be at retail. I expect more value from a kickstarter.
Well, with the discussion of the 'sweet spot pledge' being 100 dollars, youd probably be talking about the equivalent of the game, plus 2 full expansions being that price by the end of the campaign.
I suppose you may be right that the 100 dollar point may scare people off before the stretch goals are unlocked. However they'll likely have a 'just the game' pledge level too.
Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.
Amazingly enough, I've had boardgames with hard plastic figures, some of which required assembly, I bought at a big retail store...
ANd I recently got the new Battlelore, which though softer plastic, does have a couple figures needing assembly.
Battlemasters hasn't been in print for like 20 years. It was also distributed and promoted by Milton Bradley who at the time was a major player in the retail toy market. My point is that the modern, industry wide trend in boardgames is softer plastic miniatures.
Galen wrote: I'm still not sure what Mantic has said to get everyone exited about this. Everyone wants a good dungeon crawl, but as we've seen those are easier said than done. What have they shown to put this on the rules/figure quality level of, say, Descent? Descent has nearly 50 figures and retails for $80. Heck, the D&D board game Wrath of Ashardalon comes with 39 figures, including a dragon mini for $65. Both include piles of dungeon tiles. For a $100 dollar price tag I would expect dungeon saga to include 60-80 figures or I don't know where the value is. And that would be at retail. I expect more value from a kickstarter.
Well we've not seen the entire DKQ set yet, so everyone should postpone judgement until further details of the Kickstarter are released. We know Mantic throw a lot of extras and add ons with their stretch goal rewards. Deadzone and Mars Attacks! are good examples of this.
I'm willing to wait and see. I just don't understand people that are excited to drop $100 after only seeing a handful of scuplts and next to no game mechanics.
I'd like to see a high model count, low sculpt count and then goals for alternate sculpts and the occasional freebie.
Galen wrote: I'm willing to wait and see. I just don't understand people that are excited to drop $100 after only seeing a handful of scuplts and next to no game mechanics.
I'd like to see a high model count, low sculpt count and then goals for alternate sculpts and the occasional freebie.
Dwarf King's Hold has been out for 3+ years. The game mechanics are not a secret.
Galen wrote: I'm willing to wait and see. I just don't understand people that are excited to drop $100 after only seeing a handful of scuplts and next to no game mechanics.
I'd like to see a high model count, low sculpt count and then goals for alternate sculpts and the occasional freebie.
If you are looking at it In a vacuum, sure its not a good deal as it stands. If you have ever been a part of any other Mantic KS (which a lot of us have) then you would know they always give you a TON of stuff for your money. Thats where the excitement is coming from. We don't know exactly whats coming, but we are almost certain (based on previous experience) that it will be a lot of it.
A big part of why this is enticing is the compatibility with Kings of War stuff for me. Rescue a Basilean Elohi with allied panther riding sisters in the middle of an undead infested dungeon? Count me in!
Looking at the greens, I think I find the painted versions iffy because I don't like the paintjob, especially on the faces. Nothing wrong with them but it made them look older than they should because of the contrast. For comparison:
Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.
Amazingly enough, I've had boardgames with hard plastic figures, some of which required assembly, I bought at a big retail store...
ANd I recently got the new Battlelore, which though softer plastic, does have a couple figures needing assembly.
Gone are the days when Milton Bradley can make a print run of 250,000 copies of a giant boardgame and expect to sell it on their brand name alone; also gone are the days when Avalon Hill can print 40,000 copies of Squad Leader without batting an eyelash (the current leader in hex and counter wargames, GMT, does print runs of 3000 copies).
Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.
Amazingly enough, I've had boardgames with hard plastic figures, some of which required assembly, I bought at a big retail store...
ANd I recently got the new Battlelore, which though softer plastic, does have a couple figures needing assembly.
Gone are the days when Milton Bradley can make a print run of 250,000 copies of a giant boardgame and expect to sell it on their brand name alone; also gone are the days when Avalon Hill can print 40,000 copies of Squad Leader without batting an eyelash (the current leader in hex and counter wargames, GMT, does print runs of 3000 copies).
I don't disagree, but I submit it has more to do with the economics of the situation dictating what materials and manufacturing techniques can pay off than 'Multi-part = bad'.
I also disliked the paint job, but find the minis to be amazing. Same issue as the werewolves for most, as well as a bunch of stuff GE had done (minotaurs, anyone?).
I don't disagree, but I submit it has more to do with the economics of the situation dictating what materials and manufacturing techniques can pay off than 'Multi-part = bad'.
What figures were multipart in Battlemasters? I mean, I have access to two sets, so lemme access my brain - cavalry were rider and horse.... I think the Ogre was a front and back. The castle, cannon's wheels... I think that's it? Plugging the models onto their bases doesn't really count, I wouldn't think.
But! While I also don't mind multipart minis, have you ever seen the cries and whines echo forth from Boardgamegeek whenever an anticipated board game gets released that has *gasp* assembly required?
I saw some dude playing Dreadball with figs without arms because he didn't want to assemble them. *edit* And that reminds me two weeks ago someone sold an unused copy of Dreadball at a local game-swap day because he's a board gamer and didn't want to assemble the figures - that was his reason. He expected them to be one piece. So my brother bought his copy of Dreadball for like twenty bucks.
Someone spent a solid week whining on the Myth boards on boardgamegeek that a free figure in Myth that was KS exclusive to backers only was going to be in metal and not plastic and didn't care that it wasn't economically viable to make a plastic figure for only a few hundred people, he just didn't want to have to deal with a metal figure and it wouldn't match his plastic figures and wah wah wahh
Seriously, board gamers are fussy. FUSSY.
I suppose the situation is that 1) boardgamers have a lot of games. Imagine that every $20-$40 you spent on the hobby resulted in a new game, and that's how quickly they accrue. And 2) boardgames are a social experience - ideally you want to have read the rules online while you're waiting for it to arrive, pop the box open and punch out some cardboard, and then have a nice evening with you and 5 other friends. High-quality miniatures only have a value for those that appreciate them, or want to paint them - otherwise they're just another hurdle that has to be surmounted before you can bring it to the table!
That said - yes, they can get extremely whiny! And I'm sure that's why Mars Attacks got so many more retail orders, and why Mantic's keen to stick to board game plastic for these things. You're never talking about the true mass market either way, but I imagine the potential boardgame audience is 4 or 5 times as much as the tabletop. If they can truly become a new HeroQuest for a new age, would be quite the thing!
Bioptic wrote: I suppose the situation is that 1) boardgamers have a lot of games. Imagine that every $20-$40 you spent on the hobby resulted in a new game, and that's how quickly they accrue. And 2) boardgames are a social experience - ideally you want to have read the rules online while you're waiting for it to arrive, pop the box open and punch out some cardboard, and then have a nice evening with you and 5 other friends. High-quality miniatures only have a value for those that appreciate them, or want to paint them - otherwise they're just another hurdle that has to be surmounted before you can bring it to the table!
And let's not forget to mention there are those board gamers that absolutely despise miniatures and will either a) only play games with - or b) replace a game's miniatures with - colored wooden blocks.
Bioptic wrote: That said - yes, they can get extremely whiny! And I'm sure that's why Mars Attacks got so many more retail orders, and why Mantic's keen to stick to board game plastic for these things. You're never talking about the true mass market either way, but I imagine the potential boardgame audience is 4 or 5 times as much as the tabletop. If they can truly become a new HeroQuest for a new age, would be quite the thing!
Oh, no doubt. I think most gaming stores make most of their money from the huge huge huge mainstream boardgames like Settlers, Pandemic, Smallword, Cards Against Humanity, etc. I would love to see Mantic have a HeroQuest-style game but do you think they have the ability to sell a half a million copies of a game over several years? We know Dreadball has had about 30,000-35,000 copies made in almost two years... Dungeon Saga would have to do 10x better _and_ get distributed in Toys R Us, Wal-Mart, Target, and whatever UK high street stores in order to have even a smidgen of the name recognition that HeroQuest once had. And while that'd be awesome I don't see Mantic being able to do that for many, many years.
What Reaper really needs to do is use their old Warlord ruleset with all their Bones stuff. Even modify it into a skirmish game if need be. I thought it could be adapted to dungeon crawling as well.
I think a lot of the anticipation here (for me at least) is that this is still being built on the foundations of the previous Dwarf King's Hold games. They're pretty solid rulesets. Some parts may be a bit clunkier than I like, but things flow smooth and quickly. My kids get it, and to me that's a pretty good sign when I'm not having to constantly re- explain everything.
There's also a bit of that Mantic Sweet Spot Syndrome getting me hyped. While most previous sweet spots were around 150, you tended to get quite a bit for what you spent- on average 40+ figures of varying shapes and sizes (and a fair assortment of unique sculpts), terrain, scenery accessories, expansions...
I am quite confident that we'll see something similar here as well.
I'm wondering what they'll have for the big show stopping big bad monster, like the Gargoyle from HeroQuest or all the other big critters dungeon crawlers seem to have. A dragon possibly?
judgedoug wrote: Oh, no doubt. I think most gaming stores make most of their money from the huge huge huge mainstream boardgames like Settlers, Pandemic, Smallword, Cards Against Humanity, etc. I would love to see Mantic have a HeroQuest-style game but do you think they have the ability to sell a half a million copies of a game over several years? We know Dreadball has had about 30,000-35,000 copies made in almost two years... Dungeon Saga would have to do 10x better _and_ get distributed in Toys R Us, Wal-Mart, Target, and whatever UK high street stores in order to have even a smidgen of the name recognition that HeroQuest once had. And while that'd be awesome I don't see Mantic being able to do that for many, many years.
Hasbro and the other big players dictate what goes on the shelves of department stores; I think it would be enough of a boon for the game to get onto the shelves of FLGSs that normally don't stock wargaming miniatures, ie practically everything in the Mantic catalogue
All this talk about big-box stores, etc... just reminds me how close our hobby game to broader success. Games like Heroscape were YAY close to doing something incredible, and now i'm perpetually chasing the dragon (so to speak) looking for that "cross-over" game which will help me generate new hobby-game players.
X-wing KIND of does it... Dreadball KIND of does it... Dust KIND of does it... etc.... but we still have yet to have someone throw money at really producing that big cross-over hit.
I asked Reaper about rereleasing Crypt of the Sorcerer/ Caverns of Doom, in all of its paint and play glory at the time of the release of Bones 1. They said they were working with the idea.
I think they might have issues in getting some paints and printing those box sets to be cost effective.
Surly a map and a couple of pages of rules can't be the thing to break the bank.
Worth considering that the overall retail landscape is not what it was when it was the time of Hero Quest and Space Crusade. Would it be healthy for Amazon, Walmart etc to stock this with the inevitable deep discounts further eroding FLGS high street and online sales?
Either way I think this will be Mantics highest KS yet and if they really go for it possibly the highest wargames KS....... The main barrier is that people increasingly realise they can pledge $1 then pay more much later..... So whilst I'll plead guilty to doing that done times on KS I think they need to offer a benefit to people who pledge up front the money for the level.
Chairman Aeon wrote: Heroes are a sausagefest. It's not 1985 anymore. I'm out for that reason alone.
Iain.
3 our of 8 heroes in the core box that we know about are female or 37% if you prefer. Female Basilian cleric (haven't seen the scuplt yet), halfling thief, Elf Ranger. One is an asexual reptile "lizardperson"of some sort.
heartserenade wrote: Looking at the greens, I think I find the painted versions iffy because I don't like the paintjob, especially on the faces. Nothing wrong with them but it made them look older than they should because of the contrast. For comparison:
Spoiler:
Those look like totally different miniatures than the painted ones. Has the PVC lost a lot of subtly on the original sculpts.
3 our of 8 heroes in the core box that we know about are female or 37% if you prefer. Female Basilian cleric (haven't seen the scuplt yet), halfling thief, Elf Ranger.
tgmoore wrote: 3 our of 8 heroes in the core box that we know about are female or 37% if you prefer. Female Basilian cleric (haven't seen the scuplt yet), halfling thief, Elf Ranger.
Elf Ranger didn't even look female until I saw the "green". Low quality pics made it look like the 4 heroes were all dudes that 13 year old boys* would be playing.
Iain.
* and nothing wrong with letting out your 13 year old boy every once in a while no matter what age and gender you are.
tgmoore wrote: 3 our of 8 heroes in the core box that we know about are female or 37% if you prefer. Female Basilian cleric (haven't seen the scuplt yet), halfling thief, Elf Ranger.
Elf Ranger didn't even look female until I saw the "green". Low quality pics made it look like the 4 heroes were all dudes that 13 year old boys* would be playing.
Iain.
* and nothing wrong with letting out your 13 year old boy every once in a while no matter what age and gender you are.
All of this information is contained in this thread regardless of pictures. I respectfully disagree that Madriga (Elf Archer) doesn't look female. But art is very much a matter of personal taste. I see now I will have to buy 2 copies to make up for your dislike of this project.
So since we don't have physical models yet, I made a photoshop study of what I can do to make the face look more feminine. Seems like it could be cured by tweaking the paintjob indeed. My problem with the original paintjob is the eyes are a bit too large, the pupils are like reptile eyes and the line on the cheek is too deep so it makes the figure look older.
Yeah, I'm obsessed with painting female miniature faces.
The boardgamegeek comments made me laugh. I was absolutely addicted to the Myth forums for weeks after I got my copy of that disaster of a game! I *loved* that thread o' nerdrage about the one metal figure in a sea of plastic!
(though admittedly that was a lame choice: tossing one painted metal figure into a box of plastic will all but guarantee that poor metal dude dies a slow death of chips and weird bends)
I doubt I'll back this. I'm not willing to back a mantic PVC kickstarter after being rather disappointed with now deadzone arrived and already having plenty to play and paint. I am interested in the game though and if it turns out well I will pick it up at retail.
I've played more games of Deadzone since it got Kickstarted than I have of 40k in the past 6 years.
It's a fantastic system with some balance issues. You need to outright ban 2 or 3 models, and a few aren't worth taking. Apart from that it's brilliant and by far the smoothest system released in the past 6 years that I've seen (and I'm the sort who even buys obscure no-name garage company pdfs off Wargames Vault)
Specifically which models?
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Pacific wrote: The problem is these days, every time you read this..
8. What sets Dungeon Saga apart from other dungeon crawlers is the cinematic quality to the action.
..the term has been damaged, and provokes this facial expression from most people reading it:
Oddly (or perhaps not!) I had the same reaction.
Did he throw in "forge your own narrative" when talking about how the same mission played out differently? - On that note, though - so do the D&D/Ravenloft type games play out differently in the same mission each time - that's because the dungeons are randomly generated, and so are the mobs. So, the result is.. you know.
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Paradigm wrote: Yeah, Deadzone is effortlessly cinematic in the true sense of the word.
When there's a huge mutated alien one square from clearing the board and scoring a couple of points, and a lowly human steps up at point-blank range, opens up with laser fire and somehow downs the monstrosity, that's cinematic. (even moreso when he did it again next turn!)
When a sniper needs to move but also has a perfect shot, so he pulls out a pistol and puts a bullet between the eyes of a rebel while darting across a rooftop, that's cinematic.
When a giant turtle-dinosaur goes mental and takes out half a squad in one round, that is cinematic!
Any minis game can be "cinematic". It just requires the imagi-nation to be active. Though really, none are actually cinematic in the true sense of the word.
I think Plague Swarms are usually the main complaints with Deadzone, plus the special character mercenaries should be more reserved for special games / events and campaigns - They tend to be very killy indeed in one-off games.
The Rebs team do have a harder time of it all (apparently intentionally).
Aside from that, the last major issue I'm aware of with Deadzone is people taking the mick with combos of multiple command actions and several mawbeasts.
Oh my.. the silhouette in the latest blog post... is that a not-drizzt? By thunder they better not! Those dirty temptresses I was gonna heavily consider skipping this one!
Rordin - Dwarf (EDIT: ok it didn't resize so spoiler tag it is)
Spoiler:
With that in mind, when we launch on Monday we will do so with just one Pledge Level – the Absolute Depravity level. This is to make it really easy to identify which is the sweet spot pledge level that will get all the cool freebies unlocked in it! It will be available for $100.
One pledge level only's been a CoolMiniOrNot staple lately, doubtless because research showed that backers were starting to get quite confused with all of the options! Hopefully it will also limit the backsliding that's been going on.
Another common tactic is to have the base pledge for $100, then another $50 for the 'Big Expansion', which may or may not have additional freebies added in. So you still get your $150 bedrock, but have a reduced level for the more price-sensitive.
GrimDork wrote: Oh my.. the silhouette in the latest blog post... is that a not-drizzt? By thunder they better not! Those dirty temptresses I was gonna heavily consider skipping this one!
Mumblegrumble razzlefrazzle.
Looks like a roughish dual wielding type hero is coming. Keldan.
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squall018 wrote: Is the bottom picture of the old DKH board or prototypes of the new one?
Those are new tiles. There weren't long single square tiles in Dwarf King's Hold.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
We must have only one version of a game per genre! This game is based on DKH series which for me plays much faster than Descent. And certainly less counters.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
We must have only one version of a game per genre! This game is based on DKH series which for me plays much faster than Descent. And certainly less counters.
Well, my nerd closet does have a maximum capacity, thanks for the added snark.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
We must have only one version of a game per genre! This game is based on DKH series which for me plays much faster than Descent. And certainly less counters.
Well, my nerd closet does have a maximum capacity, thanks for the added snark.
I do appreciate the actual answer.
No snarkiness intended or implied. I think your question an irrelevant one. Every popular game is followed by similar games. Descent hardly invented the Dungeon crawl genre.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
We must have only one version of a game per genre! This game is based on DKH series which for me plays much faster than Descent. And certainly less counters.
Well, my nerd closet does have a maximum capacity, thanks for the added snark.
I do appreciate the actual answer.
No snarkiness intended or implied. I think your question an irrelevant one. Every popular game is followed by similar games. Descent hardly invented the Dungeon crawl genre.
It is not irrelevant. If I already have a game in the genre, wanting to know why This One is also worth buying makes sense. If I have limited funds, even if I don't already have a game in this genre but want one, wanting to know why This One is the one to dedicate my resources to makes sense.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
We must have only one version of a game per genre! This game is based on DKH series which for me plays much faster than Descent. And certainly less counters.
Well, my nerd closet does have a maximum capacity, thanks for the added snark.
I do appreciate the actual answer.
No snarkiness intended or implied. I think your question an irrelevant one. Every popular game is followed by similar games. Descent hardly invented the Dungeon crawl genre.
Of course I disagree because there is absolutely no need for me to purchase another game, particularly one that is currently listed as going to be more expensive than the original, that produces the exact same experience. Thus my question as to what this game will provide that the other does not. If it's just rules, I can download the free rules, or buy them later if they aren't free, from the Mantic website and try them with Descent minis. Minis? I've tons of great minis from a number of sources. Dungeon tiles? Loads of those out there and very inexpensive.
So, again, what will this game provide that other games do not? Keep in mind I'm not saying the game shouldn't exist, competition is healthy, but if someone already owns Descent (in my case both versions) with all the minis and tiles, etc, why should I plunk down my money for this product.
In summary, I would like to know the extent to how different of a gaming experience and how different this product will be when compared to what appears to be a nearly identical, pre-existing product. If you don't know the answer just state so, there's no reason to state the question is irrelevant; it may very well be to you but obviously is not to me...which is why I asked it.
Faster gameplay than Descent
Co op of some sort
official sandbox mode to build in your own quests/ campaign
official stats for all of Mantic's fantasy lines (I can't help but want Martian stats since they cross over with everything anyways)
dwarven undead
reptile hero
ninjas (?)
Have they said if the map is going to be completely built at the beginning of the scenario (like Descent 2.0), or where you build it as you explore (Ravenloft, Descent 1.0, WHQ, other things)?
I'm really interested in a thoughtful response to agnosto's question, as detailed as possible, because I really DON'T like Descent. DKQ would have to be very different to grab my interest.
I think it's in Mantic's best interest to make this as clear as possible anyway. If you want to say that there hasn't been an entry level heroquest-esque boardgame since forever and we're here to fill that void, Descent is the elephant in the room. If it doesn't fit that bill but DKQ will, I want to know why. (I never played heroquest, but Descent bores the heck out of me.)
Bioptic wrote: One pledge level only's been a CoolMiniOrNot staple lately, doubtless because research showed that backers were starting to get quite confused with all of the options! Hopefully it will also limit the backsliding that's been going on.
Another common tactic is to have the base pledge for $100, then another $50 for the 'Big Expansion', which may or may not have additional freebies added in. So you still get your $150 bedrock, but have a reduced level for the more price-sensitive.
I don't agree on this (but then again that's just me), I like the fact there are multiple pledge levels. If you (and by "you" I mean any person) get confused on the pledge levels, maybe you should simply dedicate just a little more time to read what you are pledging for.
Thanks Highlord Tamburlaine that was helpful. I'll continue to watch for further information before deciding to buy or not.
Another concern is whether or not this will eventually be cheaper through discount sellers like Miniature Market than through the Kickstarter. Mantic has been hit or miss in this regard. They often provide great deals overall in their Kickstarter but some individual models/sets wind up cheaper at MM and other places.
I'll have to take a proper look at the contents and what not but as it stands from the vague picture that without stretch gaols this will not be worth £75.00. Obviously I'll chip in but we will have to see if I stay in.
Thing is, not that much is known about the project right now - probably best to wait the 3 days until it launches, where more concrete facts will be known! It will mainly differ from Descent in speed (although there is an 'advanced mode'), the option to play fully co-op, and the instant expandability - you won't be limited to new monsters in expansion packs.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
Hmm, I think Descent 2nd is pretty but is overtly cumbersome, with too many tokens and counters and plays more like a board game version of a fantasy combat MMO mixed with D&D 4th edition.
So, for me, Descent is the exact opposite of what I personally want out of a dungeon crawler game. I'm hoping Dungeon Saga does that - light enough for beer and pretzels with a little deeper long-term/campaign system. We'll see though.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
Hmm, I think Descent 2nd is pretty but is overtly cumbersome, with too many tokens and counters and plays more like a board game version of a fantasy combat MMO mixed with D&D 4th edition.
So, for me, Descent is the exact opposite of what I personally want out of a dungeon crawler game. I'm hoping Dungeon Saga does that - light enough for beer and pretzels with a little deeper long-term/campaign system. We'll see though.
I agree to a great extent and an easy to play and set-up game that has some depth without being clunky would draw me in.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
We must have only one version of a game per genre! This game is based on DKH series which for me plays much faster than Descent. And certainly less counters.
Well, my nerd closet does have a maximum capacity, thanks for the added snark.
I do appreciate the actual answer.
No snarkiness intended or implied. I think your question an irrelevant one. Every popular game is followed by similar games. Descent hardly invented the Dungeon crawl genre.
Of course I disagree because there is absolutely no need for me to purchase another game, particularly one that is currently listed as going to be more expensive than the original, that produces the exact same experience. Thus my question as to what this game will provide that the other does not. If it's just rules, I can download the free rules, or buy them later if they aren't free, from the Mantic website and try them with Descent minis. Minis? I've tons of great minis from a number of sources. Dungeon tiles? Loads of those out there and very inexpensive.
So, again, what will this game provide that other games do not? Keep in mind I'm not saying the game shouldn't exist, competition is healthy, but if someone already owns Descent (in my case both versions) with all the minis and tiles, etc, why should I plunk down my money for this product.
In summary, I would like to know the extent to how different of a gaming experience and how different this product will be when compared to what appears to be a nearly identical, pre-existing product. If you don't know the answer just state so, there's no reason to state the question is irrelevant; it may very well be to you but obviously is not to me...which is why I asked it.
If you like using existing miniatures and components there is probably little "need" for you to buy into this Kickstarter. The majority of my hobby purchases are not based on the concept of need. I don't "need" another Leman Russ tank but for I continue to collect, paint and play with them for fun.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
Hmm, I think Descent 2nd is pretty but is overtly cumbersome, with too many tokens and counters and plays more like a board game version of a fantasy combat MMO mixed with D&D 4th edition.
So, for me, Descent is the exact opposite of what I personally want out of a dungeon crawler game. I'm hoping Dungeon Saga does that - light enough for beer and pretzels with a little deeper long-term/campaign system. We'll see though.
I agree to a great extent and an easy to play and set-up game that has some depth without being clunky would draw me in.
Why would that matter? You can use free to download rules and existing miniatures and components?
If you like using existing miniatures and components there is probably little "need" for you to buy into this Kickstarter. The majority of my hobby purchases are not based on the concept of need. I don't "need" another Leman Russ tank but for I continue to collect, paint and play with them for fun.
Wow, you're just determined to be unpleasant. Look, I'm sorry if my question somehow insulted you. If it helps, replace my use of the word "need" with the word "reason".
I unfortunately have an expansive nerd budget so I'm running out of space and already have several games collecting dust in my afore mentioned bursting nerd closet and want to be "sold" on the game thus the impetus of my question; I already own everything Descent related so asked what's significantly different about this game to encourage me to buy it. If you don't know and/or don't want to answer, fine; however, there's no need to be unpleasant about a simple, innocent question.
If you like using existing miniatures and components there is probably little "need" for you to buy into this Kickstarter. The majority of my hobby purchases are not based on the concept of need. I don't "need" another Leman Russ tank but for I continue to collect, paint and play with them for fun.
Wow, you're just determined to be unpleasant. Look, I'm sorry if my question somehow insulted you. If it helps, replace my use of the word "need" with the word "reason".
I unfortunately have an expansive nerd budget so I'm running out of space and already have several games collecting dust in my afore mentioned bursting nerd closet and want to be "sold" on the game thus the impetus of my question; I already own everything Descent related so asked what's significantly different about this game to encourage me to buy it. If you don't know and/or don't want to answer, fine; however, there's no need to be unpleasant about a simple, innocent question.
There is no intended malice in my opinions. You are assigning that attribute. I apologize if I have offended you.
1. Dungeon Saga component wise will be very similar to other miniature dungeon crawlers. As it will have tiles, dice, miniatures, cards, etc. With free rules and color printer an enterprising person could easily replicate all paper/card parts and rules. If you are ok with using 100% stand in miniatures there is probably little reason to buy into the DKQ KS. This logically leaves two parties. Those that don't have lots of minis/components or want more and those that like buying or collecting new or different (aesthetically) games.
2. The rules are based on the existing Dwarf King's Hold game which is a rather fast playing, dare I say beer and pretzels squad based, objective driven, skrimish wargame in a dungeon. You could accquire a copy of the Dwarf Kings Hold rules (I don't believe they are a free download atm) you could print counters and use your own dice to play with your Descent stuff.
tgmoore wrote: There is no intended malice in my opinions. You are assigning that attribute.
Not trying to broaden the conflict, but as an outside observer I too read your statements as being antagonistic, and I'm far from the first person who would side with agnosto (especially in a Mantic thread). Again, not trying to make this into a thing, but offering the feedback that your tone is evidently coming across very different from what you intend (a known flaw of text-based communication), and some adjustment to writing style might be beneficial as a result.
On topic, I too am curious about what the distinguishing traits of this versus Descent or HeroQuest would be. While you typically don't ever want to mention your competition by name, Mantic would be well-served by having that question answered because it's going to come up. Hopefully they have realized this and we'll get a full answer on August 4th when it goes live.
Unfortunately at this stage it would take some awesome answers to get me in at the KS phase; eBay and my interest in FoW has tapped out the "money I'll throw down a hole" category of the budget.
Thank you for the information. I've never played DKH and so have no experience with the rules. As you and others have mentioned that it's quick-playing.
Do you know how the dungeon tiles compare with Descent? Quality, size, etc. Match, close or completely different? I ask because the pics make them appear rather thin, comparatively speaking.
agnosto wrote: Thank you for the information. I've never played DKH and so have no experience with the rules. As you and others have mentioned that it's quick-playing.
Do you know how the dungeon tiles compare with Descent? Quality, size, etc. Match, close or completely different? I ask because the pics make them appear rather thin, comparatively speaking.
Dwarf King's Hold had serviceable but lower quality thinner tiles. My main gripe about DKH was the very low quality of the boxes which were too thin. Mantic has stated repeatedly that they intend to make the tiles thicker for Dungeon Sagas and I believe in the last Podcast they mention they would be the same quality as the last (limited edition) iteration of Space Hulk. I will speculate that the tiles shown pre-KS thus far do look thin and my suspecion is it these are just printed out card stock. Gluing card stock to foam board would be better looking probably. One trick I use with all my tiles is to ink the edges with a perminate marker in brown or black. Also playing on a black table or tablecloth looks better imo
Take a peek at the designer's blog, Quirkworthy. No ninja's, however.
While I've found reviews for the original DKH, I haven't found comparisons between DKH and Descent. Also, after reading the designer's blog, I'm sorta under the impression that DS is different enough from DKH.
My concern is that the casual boardgamers will be put off by a campaign targeted towards Mantic hardcore (EB's and overwhelming add-ons), while the hobbyists will be less interested in the boardgamer-oriented miniatures (integrated miniatures, generic fantasy genre). It's a little frustrating that Mantic's spent more time on the teaser campaign than the campaign itself. Good video with BoW, tho.
agnosto wrote: So, what does this bring that my copy of Descent 2nd doesn't?
Hmm, I think Descent 2nd is pretty but is overtly cumbersome, with too many tokens and counters and plays more like a board game version of a fantasy combat MMO mixed with D&D 4th edition.
So, for me, Descent is the exact opposite of what I personally want out of a dungeon crawler game. I'm hoping Dungeon Saga does that - light enough for beer and pretzels with a little deeper long-term/campaign system. We'll see though.
I agree to a great extent and an easy to play and set-up game that has some depth without being clunky would draw me in.
That's what I'm hoping for...
I've played a fair bit of descent, and I think it's lacking a certain ... something. I'm not sure if 'fun' is the right word? It feels like it has been made for the BGG hardcore crowd, rather than something for a few mates on a sat night - it doesn't leave much space on a table for beer and peanuts for one!
I've played a fair bit of descent, and I think it's lacking a certain ... something. I'm not sure if 'fun' is the right word? It feels like it has been made for the BGG hardcore crowd, rather than something for a few mates on a sat night - it doesn't leave much space on a table for beer and peanuts for one!
To be fair, v2 produced much smaller maps and was more beer friendly (at least for us). We dropped our D&D 3.5 campaign in favor of Descent on the simple basis of it being beer friendly.
Sculpts:
I like the frat-boy zombie, it looks like he's going to give someone a bro-hug.
I still need to see better pictures of the dual wielding swardsmang, i can't tell if he's Drizz't inspired or just similar. Everything looks good, i'll probably pledge but Idunno, this looks like something i'd rather pick up at retail just for the sake of actually picking up a mantic product at retail.
I'm just trying to figure out why there was that ninja sculpt back at the open day.
Seems like a perfect add on hero to me, unless Thorton shot that down on his blog. Haven't had a chance to check, and probably won't until Sunday night.
agnosto wrote: For me, and I know many won't agree, prepainted minis would be an auto-buy. I'm so OCD that I actually painted my Descent minis....
Good point. Too bad the WizKids / Wizards / Paizo prepaints don't come with stat cards for the D&D Adventure System games.
fwiw, The Dungeon Command Heart of Cormyr has hero prepaints of the Elf, Dwarf, and Wizard (in lovely purple) but not a barbarian. Not sure about DC's Undead Horde miniatures.
agnosto wrote: Thank you for the information. I've never played DKH and so have no experience with the rules. As you and others have mentioned that it's quick-playing.
Just for reference, my gaming group played DKH Green Menace this week and completed 4 games in about 2 and a half hours, with no previous knowledge of the rules.
The opposed dice rolling system in the current DKH rules kinda sucks (you have to pair off the highest dice on each side rather than just difference in successes), hoping they switch to dreadball and deadzone style.
I actually never got to play it again, despite my enthusiasm - that was one of the last gaming conventions I got to go to and then I moved country (twice!) and haven't settled with a face to face group who would enjoy playing it. Maybe I can convince my girlfriend to play it with me :(
Gah! I was hoping the Troll Shaman might not look so "mantic-troll". Stupid knock kneed trolls! I hate them. Worst Trolls on the market.
Yeah, I had the same major issue with the Opposing Rolls in Green Menace.
However, I was playing it *after* Dreadball/Deadzone, so I sort of picked up the similiarities and the DKH mechanic really did feel like a prototype / precursor to the dreadball/deadzones.
I liked the addition of Samurai and ninjas from the far east back in DnD 3/3.5. I also developed my own "Germanic/Teutonic" human culture with variances on paladins, clerics and warrior classes to more accurately represent them which I really enjoyed. The more I look into FFG and DKH, the more excited I am to get back into RPGs. Looking forward to seeing what DnD5 has to offer too after the many things in DnD 4th that I really didn't like, despite liking some aspects of it.
The new battlesystems terrain will be essential to my enjoyment of this KS too though I think.
BS terrain is definitely where it's at for me, just some cardboard floor tiles like what I think we're getting here s serviceable but the BS terrain is just so much mooe immersive. Maybe the basic starter and any extra rules would be what I'd go for, but no extra mantic terrain here. It would be amazing if they did a deal and sold a kit with BS terrain instead.
Now, that, I might back. Though it would be expensive to get the DS game AND 200something dollars of sweet spot battle systems pledge. Or whatever it was, it was not-insignificant.
DKH is my stand by game. We love it. My concern with this game is that as a co-op it won't have the finely crafted scenarios that years on I am still enjoying and playing.
The biggest negative though was the card terrain - very poor. I am on the verge of making some permanent maps for each scenario.
It is very different to descent. 2 player game, one person running scenario, the other paying against it - initially with the stock force, later expansion allowed a bidding system to take it on with less. Mechanics were opposed dice rolls, pairing highest with highest and so on down, only the active model can cause damage (so not a case of getting to attack and kill yourself). Best described as a tactical squad game where model placement, choices between movement and attacking, less activations than the models you have, bottlenecks, etc were all important.
Grab an electronic copy of the rules (dwarfs and undead are simplest and fastest, orcs and elves game is more complex and challenging), use your existing stuff, but match the maps in the book and have a go. Some scenarios seem very unbalanced until you crack a counter tactic, which leads to other tactics etc.
I would have loved a deluxe DKH box, the three games rolled into one, single piece mini's for all, decent map tiles etc. As that was somewhat unrealistic I hope this campaign goes far enough so it can include the DKH stuff as an integral addon.
Azazelx wrote: I'm not going to complain too much about slightly soft-appearing details on boardgame plastic figures that have been blown up to 4x their actual size.
Mantic really does have a habit of releasing giant pics of figures that are only an inch tall but display as ten inches tall on my giant monitor.
That figure looks like he's got a hangnail on his pinkie finger, I'm not sure I can back a Kickstarter for heroes that don't practice proper cuticle maintenance. Plus the detail looks really soft on their eyelashes.
It's hardly a complaint, it's an observation. Or in Mantic games case a feature. :-P Although there are many comparable high quality board game pieces out there that aren't as soft. Anyway it will be auto funded in minutes so no need to wish them luck. :-)
Hahah always fun riding a Mantic kickstarter. Bets on this one being smaller than usual? Doesn't seem like there'd be much reason to go deep. I guess they could package kings of war armies with it for use as grooblies ; )
I think they had said it was meant to be a smaller kick starter... but I kind oof wonder if it really will. Its a proper board game, if they present it right... won't need deep pockets, there will be more backers than usual.
Wasn't Dreadball Extreme supposedly a "small" kickstarter?
I agree. This has potential to bring backer volume in rather than big pledgers if they have all the boardgamer's criteria checked off prior to starting.
Edit- So here's that ninja photo I remembered seeing. Any further word on where this came from? It was posted around the same time as the Open Day stuff, in the Mantic thread, by Scarlet Squig no less.
That is NOT a halfling, and I am NOT crazy for having thought there was a Mantic ninja floating around out there.
Crazy for other things... sure. But not for Mantic ninjas.
That looks pretty sweet. Like an elven assassin or something. Loads of neat little details like the ninja throwing knives and the little bottle on his belt/sash.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I agree. This has potential to bring backer volume in rather than big pledgers if they have all the boardgamer's criteria checked off prior to starting.
Take a look at DKH on BGG, and you'll find very few posts, less than three pages for the three DKH products. Compare this to 40+ pages for Super Dungeon Explore before their Forgotten Kings KS.
Mantic's including EB's, so I'm already hearing the BGG rallying cry of "I'll wait until retail". If Mantic sticks to their add-on laden miniatures-oriented KS, rather than use a more boardgame one (eg. FK or Z3), they're going to attract miniature gamers, rather than boardgamers. How much do miniature gamers want integrated miniatures? Will Mantic offer their existing sprues as cheap add-ons?
The teaser campaign has been ridiculously uninformative. Pictures of miniatures and tiles do not equate to gameplay. Why should I pick up this dungeoncrawler when I'm already sunk into Descent and Super Dungeon Explore? Tell me that, Mantic.
Still, if they resort to the tried-and-true tactic of ZOMG FREE MINIATURES, like Myth, Zombicide, and other KS I've fallen for, easily 1M there. And who knows if the HeroQuest 25th edition campaign set up interest in an entry-level dungeoncrawler.
It's a heroquest style game from a company 99.9% likely to fulfill! Unlike hq25.
That's one reason. Rules? Didn't hurt Kingdom Death. KS management? Again, lateness us not rare but the openness mantic shows with that is - and they usually compensate in other ways like enhance value e. G Mars Attacks saw the first 2500 get Tiger Corps free, 5 minis, which has turned into 10 post KS, plus more scenery than promised and Novas Virae set has more in it that promised as well.
Breotan wrote: They get no more money from me until their previous KS are fulfilled.
Which KS (goodies) exactly are you waiting for? And how late is Mantic when it comes to fulfilling their KSs?
PS. I have no doubt this will fund very quickly today, but them losing potential backers for such reasons draws a question mark for future campaigns...
They haven't fulfilled Dreadball Xtreme but then again it hasn't hit the estimated date of fulfillment yet. They said they're shipping Mars attack this month which is on time in terms of the estimated date on KS. They haven't finished fulfilling Deadzone but that one was split into waves which I think was made clear to backers during the KS itself.
I think bringing out a solid boardgame that just gets mini gamers backing would be ideal for Mantic.
They want a) community of interest, b) lots of stuff on interwebs in terms of variants, painting guides, etc - wargamers are great at this and c) retail sales.
Most specialist retailers don't want to touch KS gear with a long stick for fear they have no remaining market. Enough interest to show a market, lots of content creation and evidence of demand would be fantastic for both parties.
Mantic should really use this to de-risk the creation of a top class product that they can shift in places like initially games shops till the kinks are gone and then Argos.
Breotan wrote: They get no more money from me until their previous KS are fulfilled.
Dreadball - fulfilled on time
Kings of War - fulfilled on time
Deadzone - Wave 1 fulfilled on time, Wave 2 shipping now (about a month delay), small number of models (<5% delayed) until October acter taming on feedback from backers
Mars Attacks - due August, on schedule to start shipping at the end of the month
Dreadball Extreme - due November, last update is that it's on schedule
There's lots of things you can say about Mantic, but not fulfilling is definitely not one of them. They've got the best record of any kickstarter miniatures company i can think of by far. On many other kickstarters it seems like 6 to 12 month delay is normal - that's simply not the case with Mantic.
TwilightSparkles wrote: It's a heroquest style game from a company 99.9% likely to fulfill! Unlike hq25.
That does nothing to answer the question, which was
ced1106 wrote: Why should I pick up this dungeoncrawler when I'm already sunk into Descent and Super Dungeon Explore? Tell me that, Mantic.
No one doubted they would fulfill pledges. The issue is Why THIS game over or in addition to others in the genre?
In fairness, the campaign hasn't even started yet. You'll see what the deal is, what the models, tiles, rules etc are like in a few hours. Then you can decide.
In fairness, they could have showcased some rules mechanisms or game play features along with the minis in the teasers.
And in fairness, the question asked is what they really do need to answer, it has been asked a few times. Hopefully Mantic does really show why This Game is the one to get or is worth getting in addition to the others.
But... does Mantic need to get them onboard? Selling to the fanatics now, combined with Mantics excellent policy of not having a wall of exclusive models that stuff players getting in later ( I hate that...), means it could be more accessible later with reviews and played examples knocking around web, and you have an easier time than releasing half finished rules now and engaging in endless debate.
I think with this product Mantic really want retail sales as I reckon the end result is a viable cheap to produce box set, not an Ogre like monstrosity or a code-tastic dreadball situation (I know retailers who can't face the number of SKU's for that game and won't stock it).
