When I saw the new army bundles GW have released for Christmas I was pretty impressed, there's a lot of great themed armies there and most of them actually adhere to the FOC.

I've been eyeing up Militarum Tempestus for a while and when I saw the airborne assault bundle I got a little excited and assumed being that as it was a bundle and its Christmas there'd be some kind of discount. Being the cautious buyer I am I ran the numbers anyway and found out it was the exact same cost as buying everything individually.

What's up with this? Are they preying on less cautious peoples assumptions? I feel no rush to buy it if its the exact same price as normal. It doesn't make much sense.

After writing this I'm not sure what kind of response I expect and realise I'm just having a winge but hey.

Thoughts?

The one-click web bundles are just advertising. They might help someone who is ignorant to what’s what buy a themed gift for someone who plays. But if you want savings, get something that has its own box. There are a number of them out there.

First time looking at the "deals" on GW's store?

 SilverMK2 wrote:
First time looking at the "deals" on GW's store?

First time any of them have caught my interest enough to consider them. Usually they always include some useless models which I don't look twice at however these Christmas ones actually have some good collections.

If they knocked 10% off for buying the bundles I'd be all over some of them like the farsight enclaves, airborne assault or even the battleforce.

Clearly GW doesn't embrace the Christmas spirit much

GW's bundle packages have never had savings.

The only things which ever had savings were the battleforces/battalion boxes.

 Grey Templar wrote:
GW's bundle packages have never had savings.

The only things which ever had savings were the battleforces/battalion boxes.

Well the bundles when they originally launched Apoc were actually good savings. FW still understands this "discount" concept.

I have never really understood this myself. It is just easier for a buyer I guess to get a number of things with one click. Seems like it should have some kind of discount attached as well. The logic kind of escapes me. If there was some kind of deal on these I might be willing to buy, but because there is not, it does not create a sense of urgency in me to buy before the deal goes away. Then again I did not go to school for marketing, so maybe I am a simpleton when it comes to these kinds of things.

I think their idea is to trap people who think "there must be a saving in buying this bundle" but never actually check out the cost of the bundle.

Uncle Fester wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
GW's bundle packages have never had savings.

The only things which ever had savings were the battleforces/battalion boxes.

Well the bundles when they originally launched Apoc were actually good savings. FW still understands this "discount" concept.

And all of those bundles came in their own box, like the "Militarum Tempestus Storm Scions" boxed set.

As Nevelon mentioned, if it does not have its own box then it's just saving you from exceeding your government mandated Internet Clicks limit.

Taffy17 wrote:
When I saw the new army bundles GW have released for Christmas I was pretty impressed, there's a lot of great themed armies there and most of them actually adhere to the FOC.

I've been eyeing up Militarum Tempestus for a while and when I saw the airborne assault bundle I got a little excited and assumed being that as it was a bundle and its Christmas there'd be some kind of discount. Being the cautious buyer I am I ran the numbers anyway and found out it was the exact same cost as buying everything individually.

What's up with this? Are they preying on less cautious peoples assumptions? I feel no rush to buy it if its the exact same price as normal. It doesn't make much sense.

After writing this I'm not sure what kind of response I expect and realise I'm just having a winge but hey.

Thoughts?

Some of the boxes have a small discount, others a little bit more, and many have no discount at all. I guess, the good news, it's never more expensive lol. On the bright side, some of the unit + tank bundles are a little cheaper at my FLGS than buying them split up. It might be only $5 between the pair, but the unit + vehicle bundles I'm more likely to want both.

This is in contrast with some "good buys" -- of dubious value, because you have to want most of the stuff out of the box:

- New big paint set is 160 paints for $560, or $3.50 each, individually, they're $4.00
- Eldar battleforce is $115, guardian squad is $36, avengers $35, vyper $30, wave serpent $45 = $146
- The new DA Expansion is a big savings, compared to the parts separately (you basically get the bike command squad free)

The problem is, the paint set is only helpful if you don't have any (or much) citadel paint; the Eldar BF isn't useful if you want to put fire dragons into the WS; the DA expansion might be great if you wanted those units, which are fantastic models, but it's a pretty weird mix to want to buy together (especially since core DV comes with terminators and bikes already).

The bundles on the site are never a discount, they do have the battle force boxes like this eldar one: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Eldar-Battleforce

It is $115 US, the same stuff would be $145.75 US, so definitely some savings on that.

The Tyranid wrath of the hive mind is $165 US the components would be $210.84
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Wrath-of-the-Hive-Mind

Did some rough math for the gaunts as they sell them in boxes of 12 and the box set comes with an even 20.

So some of the box sets do you give you a decent savings.

Savings on units that aren't used in good lists aren't much of a saving.

It is still a decent way to build up a list, tyranid warriors I know aren't great but they are needed for many of the better formations like the living artillery node. I know a lot of people who field units that are not competitive because they like them and care more about having fun than winning every game, especially in friendly games.

The Ork Mekmob is pretty good at 20% off, with mostly good units, with the possible exception being the deff dread.

GW offers two types of bundles, and they don't tell you with words which is which.

one is a boxed deal which contains all the sprues and what not 1 box designed for the models.

the other is a collection of boxes that make a 'web bundle'

the first is at a discount for some amount- some of them range from a $3.00 discount to a $70.00 discount.

the web bundle is not at any discount, and is just a quick way to purchase a lot of separate boxes at standard msrp that make up their idea of a collection.

In GW's own words, a discount would devalue the product and it is worth paying full price for, ergo the "one click collections" do not save you any money at all.

Why the actual battleforce/battalion/etc. boxes don't adhere to that rule is anyone's guess, but the above has been their official reasoning.

Talys wrote:

Some of the boxes have a small discount, others a little bit more, and many have no discount at all. I guess, the good news, it's never more expensive lol.

OH how WRONG you are. I can't remember which bundle it was, but it actually costed more to buy the one click bundle than buying it separately. I guess you are paying for less mouse clicks. LOL.

OH yeah, not one BUNDLE deal ever gave cost savings. Some of the battle boxes or what ever they are called have some good savings, but no Bundle deals that I know of ever gave savings. Most costed the same and as I said before, one or maybe even two or three costed more.

Davor wrote:

Talys wrote:

Some of the boxes have a small discount, others a little bit more, and many have no discount at all. I guess, the good news, it's never more expensive lol.

OH how WRONG you are. I can't remember which bundle it was, but it actually costed more to buy the one click bundle than buying it separately. I guess you are paying for less mouse clicks. LOL.

OH yeah, not one BUNDLE deal ever gave cost savings. Some of the battle boxes or what ever they are called have some good savings, but no Bundle deals that I know of ever gave savings. Most costed the same and as I said before, one or maybe even two or three costed more.

If I remember right chaos daemons cost more if you bought the bundle. they changed it pretty fast though.

www.darksphere.co.uk

Enjoy!

Buyers are not entitled to discounts just because they want them. Get over it.

Most of the world doesn't give you free product just because you buy a bunch. If I buy a T-shirt from Macy's, the 100th shirt costs the same as the first, and if I buy an ounce of gold, it costs the same per ounce as my hundreth ounce, and the last gallon of diesel fuel from the pump costs the same as the first.

If anything, I'm somewhat surprised that they don't charge you more per unit the more you buy, as you're depleting what has to be a relatively minimal stock.

You misunderstand OP. They do understand the concept of bulk buys. They just think that's stupid. Why should they have to lose money on a £50 Stormraven simply because it was bought alongside 3 Land Raiders, which also cost 50? Why should they only recieve 150 for 200 worth of stuff? Very logical. What they don't understand is that OTHER businesses are well-off enough to afford this so the consumer naturally expects this. The one thing Kirby doesn't never ever take into account is the random variable: people's stupidity.

The OP doesn't understand the idea of buying in bulk. Buying 4 Tactical Squads is not buying in bulk, that's buying 4 Tactical Squads. Buying 10,000 Tactical Squads is buying in bulk. Why don't you phone them and see if they will do you a discount on THAT order?

Might be GW is worried about people buying the big boxes at a discount and selling the individual units on ebay. They would still be making money off the original sale but lose out on that little extra bit. They seem to have a thing against other people selling their products on-line.

 Ailaros wrote:
Buyers are not entitled to discounts just because they want them. Get over it.

Most of the world doesn't give you free product just because you buy a bunch. If I buy a T-shirt from Macy's, the 100th shirt costs the same as the first, and if I buy an ounce of gold, it costs the same per ounce as my hundreth ounce, and the last gallon of diesel fuel from the pump costs the same as the first.

If anything, I'm somewhat surprised that they don't charge you more per unit the more you buy, as you're depleting what has to be a relatively minimal stock.

It is a pretty common thing for such "bundles" to be cheaper than just buying the things together. GW even does this with their battleforces (and rarely, megaforces) and a few other things. The way they create these is just a bit silly, especially since they're advertised in the same way that new releases are, as if they're something worth getting excited about. There's absolutely no bonus for buying these things in a bundle, not even an exclusive miniature or bit like with the Reclusiarch Command Squad. It's rather strange.

 Ailaros wrote:
Buyers are not entitled to discounts just because they want them. Get over it.

Most of the world doesn't give you free product just because you buy a bunch. If I buy a T-shirt from Macy's, the 100th shirt costs the same as the first, and if I buy an ounce of gold, it costs the same per ounce as my hundreth ounce, and the last gallon of diesel fuel from the pump costs the same as the first.

If anything, I'm somewhat surprised that they don't charge you more per unit the more you buy, as you're depleting what has to be a relatively minimal stock.

I used to work at a Macy's. Pretty damn sure if someone came in and said they were thinking about buying 100 shirts, but they were price-comparing with JC Pennies or something, we would've offered a few shirts free or SOMETHING to get his money in our till and not theirs. If they were designer shirts, they probably would've quickly dropped an offer of like 25% off to not lose that sale. Designer clothes have huge markups, so that might be something like a $2000 discount for 100 of them. (Store would still make more than that off the sale.)
Additionally they could win themselves some customer loyalty by having good deals, which can be literally worth it's weight in money.

So yes, after many years in retail and retail management, I am also confused when I see a bundle offer of any kind that doesn't actually offer a discount. It goes against pretty much all modern sales wisdom.

Protip: next time you call a pizza place looking for even 3 or more pizzas, get the manager, be really bro chill with him, and then ask if there's a way to get your pizza at a discount. If he's actual salary management and not just some shift leader, he'll generally do something for you.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Buyers are not entitled to discounts just because they want them. Get over it.

Most of the world doesn't give you free product just because you buy a bunch. If I buy a T-shirt from Macy's, the 100th shirt costs the same as the first, and if I buy an ounce of gold, it costs the same per ounce as my hundreth ounce, and the last gallon of diesel fuel from the pump costs the same as the first.

If anything, I'm somewhat surprised that they don't charge you more per unit the more you buy, as you're depleting what has to be a relatively minimal stock.

It is a pretty common thing for such "bundles" to be cheaper than just buying the things together. GW even does this with their battleforces (and rarely, megaforces) and a few other things.

The new "Megaforces"(things like the Warhost of Naggaroth, the Dwarf Battleline, Tyranid Swarm, Wrath of the Hive Mind, etc) actually all have pretty good savings.
I know the Warhost is $170 retail but the product within is $212.50. That savings works out to another box at least of something for your Dark Elves.

 Ailaros wrote:
Most of the world doesn't give you free product just because you buy a bunch. If I buy a T-shirt from Macy's, the 100th shirt costs the same as the first, and if I buy an ounce of gold, it costs the same per ounce as my hundreth ounce, and the last gallon of diesel fuel from the pump costs the same as the first.

Actually I'd say most of the world does. I'm not familiar with Macy's, but most clothes retailers will offer you a discount if you buy in bulk. If you ring up and say "I have a club/group/society and we need a giant pile of shirts, what can you do for me?" I'd say many places would offer you a discount.

If you want to buy an ounce of gold, you will struggle to find someone who will sell it to you at the market rate. If you want to buy a few pounds of gold, you're much more likely to find people willing to sell close to the market rate.

Fuel? My mate runs a fleet of trucks and gets discounts at certain stations because of that. I can guarantee if fuel stations expected to only sell 1 gallon per transaction, the price would be even higher.

That's not even touching on all the stores that offer rewards cards if you keep purchasing from them you get extra discounts or free sandwiches or your 6th haircut free or whatever (even GW used to have rewards cards where if you bought a certain amount of stuff you'd get something).

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Buyers are not entitled to discounts just because they want them. Get over it.

Most of the world doesn't give you free product just because you buy a bunch. If I buy a T-shirt from Macy's, the 100th shirt costs the same as the first, and if I buy an ounce of gold, it costs the same per ounce as my hundreth ounce, and the last gallon of diesel fuel from the pump costs the same as the first.

If anything, I'm somewhat surprised that they don't charge you more per unit the more you buy, as you're depleting what has to be a relatively minimal stock.

I used to work at a Macy's. Pretty damn sure if someone came in and said they were thinking about buying 100 shirts, but they were price-comparing with JC Pennies or something, we would've offered a few shirts free or SOMETHING to get his money in our till and not theirs. If they were designer shirts, they probably would've quickly dropped an offer of like 25% off to not lose that sale. Designer clothes have huge markups, so that might be something like a $2000 discount for 100 of them. (Store would still make more than that off the sale.)
Additionally they could win themselves some customer loyalty by having good deals, which can be literally worth it's weight in money.

So yes, after many years in retail and retail management, I am also confused when I see a bundle offer of any kind that doesn't actually offer a discount. It goes against pretty much all modern sales wisdom.

Protip: next time you call a pizza place looking for even 3 or more pizzas, get the manager, be really bro chill with him, and then ask if there's a way to get your pizza at a discount. If he's actual salary management and not just some shift leader, he'll generally do something for you.

Yes indeed.

The purpose of bundles is to offer a discount that doesn't look like a discount, in order to sell an item without devaluing its normal retail price.

For example typically there are bundle deals for PlayStation and Xbox where you get the console and a game for less than the price of the console and game separately, but the purpose is to sell you the console because you will buy more games for it later on.

GW doesn't have that kind of an angle really.

Yeah, there definitely seems to be two minds about this issue. I ran into this on eBay last week. I messaged a guy and asked him if he would be willing to hash out a reduced rate if I bought in bulk, and he acted like I asked to watch his wife shower. But the practice is common enough that if you run into someone childish enough to act like that, you can just take your business on down the road and be pretty sure of finding someone who will slide you a deal.

The SM battle company actually costs 7$ more than buying everything alone. They love playing the marine players.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, there definitely seems to be two minds about this issue. I ran into this on eBay last week. I messaged a guy and asked him if he would be willing to hash out a reduced rate if I bought in bulk, and he acted like I asked to watch his wife shower. But the practice is common enough that if you run into someone childish enough to act like that, you can just take your business on down the road and be pretty sure of finding someone who will slide you a deal.

And then I got a very nice price off eBay from one of the Korean vendors when I enquired about buying 24 tank models. I'm sure he usually sells them 1 or 2 at a time, but for my 24 I got a good rate and a good postage rate. He sold a lot more product in one hit than he usually does, and also gets all my repeat business for model kits that he stocks.

There are good value console bundles all the time. That's pretty much the definition of a "bundle" in mainstream retail for whatever product. In GW's case, the one-click bundles play on consumer ignorance, and the assumption of the same kinds of retail savings, since the chances of wanting all of those exact kits is often very low. Ironically, the closest that GW tends to come to a "bundle" are the various starter sets (Dark Millenium, etc) and now apparently the expansions that I haven't seen yet. Sanctus Reach would be another example, but they pulled the amazing disappearing limited edition trick on that one.

 Ailaros wrote:
Buyers are not entitled to discounts just because they want them. Get over it.

Most of the world doesn't give you free product just because you buy a bunch. If I buy a T-shirt from Macy's, the 100th shirt costs the same as the first, and if I buy an ounce of gold, it costs the same per ounce as my hundreth ounce, and the last gallon of diesel fuel from the pump costs the same as the first.

If anything, I'm somewhat surprised that they don't charge you more per unit the more you buy, as you're depleting what has to be a relatively minimal stock.

Because of competition. They're losing sales so sometimes companies throw in something a bit more to sweeten the deal. Heck, when I was in Japan, I'd be surprised if I didn't get something for free. I bought a lot of CD's over there and they'd come with random stuff like mini posters, key chains, mousepads, etc. It's a way to draw attention to your product and push the "maybes" over to the "Yes" group.
What GW still doesn't realize is that they are competing for people's money against other companies' games.
Seeing as how huge expensive armies turn many people away, offering a discount on buying a lot would be a good way to convince a potential customer.
"40k's too expensive!"
"Yeah, but if you buy these bundles, it's a lot cheaper."
"Oh, right on!"

Now, if discounts is the way to go, I don't know. But GW needs to start getting competitive and soon.

 Deadshot wrote:
You misunderstand OP. They do understand the concept of bulk buys. They just think that's stupid. Why should they have to lose money on a £50 Stormraven simply because it was bought alongside 3 Land Raiders, which also cost 50? Why should they only recieve 150 for 200 worth of stuff? Very logical. What they don't understand is that OTHER businesses are well-off enough to afford this so the consumer naturally expects this. The one thing Kirby doesn't never ever take into account is the random variable: people's stupidity.

Did you ever take a course on economics out of curiosity?

GW did try bulk deals with the first release of apocalypse, and apparently failed hard because the evil online retailers were undercutting the already undercut boxes. GW feeling like they had been taken advantage of vowed never to give their crummy jerk customers deals again.

Around 2007 (WH40k 5th ed.), Apocalypse was introduced and GW offered many formation bundles with deals.

http://www.astronomican.com/showthread.php?4689-New-40K-Apocalypse-Sneak-Peeks/page2

03-08-2007 Re:New 40K Apocalypse Sneak Peeks
Looking at the armoured interdiction force that is supposedly $90, and the cost of the three tanks together is $120, so actually the deals are looking pretty outstanding.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/173447.page

[i]2007/07/22 23:23:14 UltraMarc- I don't know if this has been confirmed yet but the CAN $ for the Baneblade will be $95.00 CAN. The box will be 3 for the price of two so it will be $190 CAN.

Anyway, there was some evidence of getting people to buy large items by giving a discount.

They understood the concept back then, but have decided "one-click" purchases are value added enough now.

 Ravenous D wrote:
GW did try bulk deals with the first release of apocalypse, and apparently failed hard because the evil online retailers were undercutting the already undercut boxes. GW feeling like they had been taken advantage of vowed never to give their crummy jerk customers deals again.

Yes, those thieving online retailers and their filthy discounts! If only they could all be shut down.

 Talizvar wrote:
Around 2007 (WH40k 5th ed.), Apocalypse was introduced and GW offered many formation bundles with deals.

http://www.astronomican.com/showthread.php?4689-New-40K-Apocalypse-Sneak-Peeks/page2

03-08-2007 Re:New 40K Apocalypse Sneak Peeks
Looking at the armoured interdiction force that is supposedly $90, and the cost of the three tanks together is $120, so actually the deals are looking pretty outstanding.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/173447.page

[i]2007/07/22 23:23:14 UltraMarc- I don't know if this has been confirmed yet but the CAN $ for the Baneblade will be $95.00 CAN. The box will be 3 for the price of two so it will be $190 CAN.

Anyway, there was some evidence of getting people to buy large items by giving a discount.

They understood the concept back then, but have decided "one-click" purchases are value added enough now.

Those apoc bundles earned them a LOT of $. They got people started buying armies they never would have otherwise. Without the guard one, I never ever would have started a guard army. Since getting it, I have plunked down a huge amount of money to supplement what I got then so overall, they made a killing on me and I'm sure that I'm far from the only one.

This is the single most annoying thing for me about GW as a retailer. It suggests that they think I'm stupid and can't be bothered to add the different costs together.

 scottmmmm wrote:
This is the single most annoying thing for me about GW as a retailer. It suggests that they think I'm stupid and can't be bothered to add the different costs together.

That *IS* what they think. You should be buying their products because they are GW products, not because you think there is a cost savings. I'd wager they feel that if you look for/expect a discount, you aren't the kind of customer they want as you should be ready to pay any price for the "best miniatures in the world".

I am very reminded of an episode of Hotel Hell with Gordon Ramsay where he's talking to this wealthy, snobbish, pretentious hotel owner about his beautiful but empty hotel that is losing money. The rooms are like $300 a night and there's a three course meal that's like $75 per person, and when Gordon asks him about the locals thinking the price is too high he says something to the effect of "We haven't identified the right kind of clientele yet" to which Gordon looks at him incredulously and asks what he means, and he says something like "The kind of people who can afford paying $75 for a three course dinner".

That's how I imagine GW to operate. The right kind of customer is one who doesn't care about the price, they care about getting the figures.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
You misunderstand OP. They do understand the concept of bulk buys. They just think that's stupid. Why should they have to lose money on a £50 Stormraven simply because it was bought alongside 3 Land Raiders, which also cost 50? Why should they only recieve 150 for 200 worth of stuff? Very logical. What they don't understand is that OTHER businesses are well-off enough to afford this so the consumer naturally expects this. The one thing Kirby doesn't never ever take into account is the random variable: people's stupidity.

Did you ever take a course on economics out of curiosity?

No, but its just basic sense. If I'm a company, and I can be making a potential 200GBP gross profit when 4 items are bought, so why should I settle for only getting 150? As far as me, the company is concerned, I've just lost money because I've had to give away a Land Raider (or half or quarter let's say) simply because the customer decided that buying 4 wasn't worth the price of 4. Kirby and his lot at GWHQ still operate in the mindset of the 19th Century. As far as they are concerned, there is no "Other retailer." With a clothes store, if you see a shirt for 50, but another store has it for 30, you just switch. GW don't believe that the same thing happens in Wargaming. They genuinely think that the customer loves 40k and the sun shines out of Kirby's backside. They don't understand that customers will change to Warmahordes or Infinity, and they're only response is "That's not 40k though?" They don't get that people just want models and games, not a brand.
The other thing they don't get is how people are stupid enough to simply believe they are entitled to a discount for any reason.

 Deadshot wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
You misunderstand OP. They do understand the concept of bulk buys. They just think that's stupid. Why should they have to lose money on a £50 Stormraven simply because it was bought alongside 3 Land Raiders, which also cost 50? Why should they only recieve 150 for 200 worth of stuff? Very logical. What they don't understand is that OTHER businesses are well-off enough to afford this so the consumer naturally expects this. The one thing Kirby doesn't never ever take into account is the random variable: people's stupidity.

Did you ever take a course on economics out of curiosity?

No, but its just basic sense. If I'm a company, and I can be making a potential 200GBP gross profit when 4 items are bought, so why should I settle for only getting 150? As far as me, the company is concerned, I've just lost money because I've had to give away a Land Raider (or half or quarter let's say) simply because the customer decided that buying 4 wasn't worth the price of 4. Kirby and his lot at GWHQ still operate in the mindset of the 19th Century. As far as they are concerned, there is no "Other retailer." With a clothes store, if you see a shirt for 50, but another store has it for 30, you just switch. GW don't believe that the same thing happens in Wargaming. They genuinely think that the customer loves 40k and the sun shines out of Kirby's backside. They don't understand that customers will change to Warmahordes or Infinity, and they're only response is "That's not 40k though?" They don't get that people just want models and games, not a brand.
The other thing they don't get is how people are stupid enough to simply believe they are entitled to a discount for any reason.

So you really don't know about the economic benefits of Bulk buying with the Economy of Scale then.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
You misunderstand OP. They do understand the concept of bulk buys. They just think that's stupid. Why should they have to lose money on a £50 Stormraven simply because it was bought alongside 3 Land Raiders, which also cost 50? Why should they only recieve 150 for 200 worth of stuff? Very logical. What they don't understand is that OTHER businesses are well-off enough to afford this so the consumer naturally expects this. The one thing Kirby doesn't never ever take into account is the random variable: people's stupidity.

Did you ever take a course on economics out of curiosity?

No, but its just basic sense. If I'm a company, and I can be making a potential 200GBP gross profit when 4 items are bought, so why should I settle for only getting 150? As far as me, the company is concerned, I've just lost money because I've had to give away a Land Raider (or half or quarter let's say) simply because the customer decided that buying 4 wasn't worth the price of 4. Kirby and his lot at GWHQ still operate in the mindset of the 19th Century. As far as they are concerned, there is no "Other retailer." With a clothes store, if you see a shirt for 50, but another store has it for 30, you just switch. GW don't believe that the same thing happens in Wargaming. They genuinely think that the customer loves 40k and the sun shines out of Kirby's backside. They don't understand that customers will change to Warmahordes or Infinity, and they're only response is "That's not 40k though?" They don't get that people just want models and games, not a brand.
The other thing they don't get is how people are stupid enough to simply believe they are entitled to a discount for any reason.

So you really don't know about the economic benefits of Bulk buying with the Economy of Scale then.

Nor do I care. I'm simply here to say why GW think the way they do.

 Deadshot wrote:
The one thing Kirby doesn't never ever take into account is the random variable: people's stupidity.

I wasn't sure at first if this was a very subtle form of irony, playing on the fact that according to a large swathe of evidence, Kirby himself is an enormous idiot. I realise from your subsequent posts that you were in fact very serious.

On topic, I don't think it's expected that companies offer a discount. My policy when dealing with people who ask me for discounts is that we only give them to people who don't ask! However, it's a very common business practice to have sales or offer discounts from time to time.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 scottmmmm wrote:
This is the single most annoying thing for me about GW as a retailer. It suggests that they think I'm stupid and can't be bothered to add the different costs together.

That *IS* what they think. You should be buying their products because they are GW products, not because you think there is a cost savings. I'd wager they feel that if you look for/expect a discount, you aren't the kind of customer they want as you should be ready to pay any price for the "best miniatures in the world".

I am very reminded of an episode of Hotel Hell with Gordon Ramsay where he's talking to this wealthy, snobbish, pretentious hotel owner about his beautiful but empty hotel that is losing money. The rooms are like $300 a night and there's a three course meal that's like $75 per person, and when Gordon asks him about the locals thinking the price is too high he says something to the effect of "We haven't identified the right kind of clientele yet" to which Gordon looks at him incredulously and asks what he means, and he says something like "The kind of people who can afford paying $75 for a three course dinner".

That's how I imagine GW to operate. The right kind of customer is one who doesn't care about the price, they care about getting the figures.

Good analogy. It's weird though. Sci-Fi/fantasy fans are not stupid on average, so why would they come to that conclusion? The only other answer I can think of is that they just don't think it's worth discounting most of these bundles (my understanding is that some do actually offer a saving vs individual purchases, but it's the vast minority). It ties in with what you say, I suppose - "you're going to buy them anyway because it's a GW product, why bother discounting".

Reminds me of Apple too actually.

I don't think anyone is saying "no fair! where's my discount!"

Its just that themed bundles with a small discount on the price is an excellent way to make money, particularly for a product line where choosing your own theme/tactics is a big part of the appeal.

As the OP said about looking at the air assault bundle, the idea of that set is cool and draws people in, and knocking £10 or whatever off the price suggests despite the large cost its a great deal - value for money + one click convenience = that browser spends £190 on your website instead of picking up a single £25 box set.

I'm not saying this from a buyer perspective, GW can do what they want but I know shop chains who live off selling expensive luxury items that are constantly (and I mean without end) having 'sales'. Being 100% cynical, taking a small reduction in profit on an individual item knowing that item will sell much better is just business sense.

I've read a little on GW's finances but are their profit margins so thin such tactics are dangerous to their well being?

master of asgard wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The one thing Kirby doesn't never ever take into account is the random variable: people's stupidity.

I wasn't sure at first if this was a very subtle form of irony, playing on the fact that according to a large swathe of evidence, Kirby himself is an enormous idiot. I realise from your subsequent posts that you were in fact very serious.

On topic, I don't think it's expected that companies offer a discount. My policy when dealing with people who ask me for discounts is that we only give them to people who don't ask! However, it's a very common business practice to have sales or offer discounts from time to time.

Oh no, it was both. Kirby is an absolute moron if he thinks he can get away with running numbers and not taking into account the one thing no-one can control, which is human ideas and stupidity, entitlement, confusion. Human reaction is literally random.

It is completely expected. Since the bundles with no savings came out people have flocked to Dakka to scream and rage "GW, Y U No DISCOINT?!" Because they have been bred to believe that buying in bulk or as a package should come with a discount. If people didn't expect it this thread wouldn't be here.

 scottmmmm wrote:
nalogy. It's weird though. Sci-Fi/fantasy fans are not stupid on average, so why would they come to that conclusion? The only other answer I can think of is that they just don't think it's worth discounting most of these bundles (my understanding is that some do actually offer a saving vs individual purchases, but it's the vast minority). It ties in with what you say, I suppose - "you're going to buy them anyway because it's a GW product, why bother discounting".

Reminds me of Apple too actually.

Answered your own question. Its not that they think sci-fi/fantasy fans are dumb its that they know they are obsessive.

 Deadshot wrote:


Oh no, it was both. Kirby is an absolute moron if he thinks he can get away with running numbers and not taking into account the one thing no-one can control, which is human ideas and stupidity, entitlement, confusion. Human reaction is literally random.

It is completely expected. Since the bundles with no savings came out people have flocked to Dakka to scream and rage "GW, Y U No DISCOINT?!" Because they have been bred to believe that buying in bulk or as a package should come with a discount. If people didn't expect it this thread wouldn't be here.

Yeah, its called 'competition'.

When all your competitors are offering something that you're not, why would you be surprised consumers would want that company to compete?

But its probably easier for you to just make blanket statements and insult people freely.

 Ailaros wrote:
Buyers are not entitled to discounts just because they want them. Get over it.

Most of the world doesn't give you free product just because you buy a bunch. If I buy a T-shirt from Macy's, the 100th shirt costs the same as the first, and if I buy an ounce of gold, it costs the same per ounce as my hundreth ounce, and the last gallon of diesel fuel from the pump costs the same as the first.

If anything, I'm somewhat surprised that they don't charge you more per unit the more you buy, as you're depleting what has to be a relatively minimal stock.

I have a waterstones card. Every 10th book gets me money off.
I have a shell fuel card, spending so much gets me vouchers for money off.
I have a Tesco and Morrisons card. Spending so much gets me vouchers for money off.
I have a Subway card. 10th sub is free.
I have a chinese buffet card, every 10th visit is free.
I bought 18 cans of coke yesterday as it was buy two (six packs) get one free.
I bought 3 Wispa Golds today at the garage as it was 46p each or 3 for a pound.

See where I'm going with this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just in case - most of the world DOES give you discount if you buy in bulk.

Also forgot to mention how I often shop at fish and meat markets as well as Macro because everything is much cheaper... simply because you are buying in bulk.

 Deadshot wrote:

master of asgard wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The one thing Kirby doesn't never ever take into account is the random variable: people's stupidity.

I wasn't sure at first if this was a very subtle form of irony, playing on the fact that according to a large swathe of evidence, Kirby himself is an enormous idiot. I realise from your subsequent posts that you were in fact very serious.

On topic, I don't think it's expected that companies offer a discount. My policy when dealing with people who ask me for discounts is that we only give them to people who don't ask! However, it's a very common business practice to have sales or offer discounts from time to time.

Oh no, it was both. Kirby is an absolute moron if he thinks he can get away with running numbers and not taking into account the one thing no-one can control, which is human ideas and stupidity, entitlement, confusion. Human reaction is literally random.

It is completely expected. Since the bundles with no savings came out people have flocked to Dakka to scream and rage "GW, Y U No DISCOINT?!" Because they have been bred to believe that buying in bulk or as a package should come with a discount. If people didn't expect it this thread wouldn't be here.

Perhaps people expect a discount when buying more stuff because it's the industry standard in retail, especially luxury brands like GW likes to think of themselves as. If I buy a 6 pack of beer, it's more expensive per bottle than if I bought a 12 pack. Lots of clothing retailers have sales if you buy more than a certain dollar amount of product. It's simple, it gets the customers to spend more money. An item sold at 30% markup is better than an item sitting on your shelf collecting dust at 50% markup. For a company like GW experiencing declining revenue and a shrinking customer base, you would think they would have sales. It's just good business sense.

Poly Ranger wrote:See where I'm going with this?

That gas stations are willing to give discounts on cheap stuff, and to jack up their prices on everybody else so they can "reward" loyalty by merely charging full price?

Yes, perhaps if you talk to a manager about buying something in ACTUAL bulk, you might be able to get a discount. Going to the manufacturer's retail site and demanding the second one of something cheaper just because you already bought another one isn't even remotely the same thing.

This is all just an entitlement mentality, nothing more. Just because some people run a retail operation in a certain way doesn't mean everyone else must, or even should, run it the same way. Especially when, as mentioned, it's in the minority. Just because you most frequently visit a convenience store doesn't mean that most businesses use that model.

 Ailaros wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:See where I'm going with this?

That gas stations are willing to give discounts on cheap stuff, and to jack up their prices on everybody else so they can "reward" loyalty by merely charging full price?

Yes, perhaps if you talk to a manager about buying something in ACTUAL bulk, you might be able to get a discount. Going to the manufacturer's retail site and demanding the second one of something cheaper just because you already bought another one isn't even remotely the same thing.

This is all just an entitlement mentality, nothing more. Just because some people run a retail operation in a certain way doesn't mean everyone else must, or even should, run it the same way. Especially when, as mentioned, it's in the minority. Just because you most frequently visit a convenience store doesn't mean that most businesses use that model.

Oh, I see!

We're buying stuff wrong everybody!

 Ailaros wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:See where I'm going with this?

That gas stations are willing to give discounts on cheap stuff, and to jack up their prices on everybody else so they can "reward" loyalty by merely charging full price?

Yes, perhaps if you talk to a manager about buying something in ACTUAL bulk, you might be able to get a discount. Going to the manufacturer's retail site and demanding the second one of something cheaper just because you already bought another one isn't even remotely the same thing.

This is all just an entitlement mentality, nothing more. Just because some people run a retail operation in a certain way doesn't mean everyone else must, or even should, run it the same way. Especially when, as mentioned, it's in the minority. Just because you most frequently visit a convenience store doesn't mean that most businesses use that model.

Except EVERY business uses the idea of sales to their advantage. It's called pushing product. GW just happens to not understand this. In a hobby where players are "obsessive" and part of the hobby is to collect a massive army, why wouldn't you encourage people to spend $500 with a discount as opposed to them spending $100 or $200 with no discount?

Seriously?

People don't understand this?

Its a simple concept, a box of 24 cans does not cost as much as 24 individual cans. A big mac, a large fries and a large drink do not cost as much as a large big mac meal deal.

GW are looking at the situation as if our purchase is a sure thing and so there is no need for an incentive. Most other companies in any industry that involves selling things work the other way, offering incentives to buy as much of their products as possible while ignoring that extra 5% they could be making per sale.

As a simple example what's better, selling 1 item at $50 or selling 3 items at $120. If the item costs you $10 to produce you're looking at a difference in profit of $40 compared to $90.

I honestly can't think of any company or industry that doesn't understand this right now.

Blacksails wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Oh no, it was both. Kirby is an absolute moron if he thinks he can get away with running numbers and not taking into account the one thing no-one can control, which is human ideas and stupidity, entitlement, confusion. Human reaction is literally random.

It is completely expected. Since the bundles with no savings came out people have flocked to Dakka to scream and rage "GW, Y U No DISCOINT?!" Because they have been bred to believe that buying in bulk or as a package should come with a discount. If people didn't expect it this thread wouldn't be here.

Yeah, its called 'competition'.

When all your competitors are offering something that you're not, why would you be surprised consumers would want that company to compete?

But its probably easier for you to just make blanket statements and insult people freely.

I'm not surprised that they want it, just surprised at how entitled people are that they think they have a right to saving money at any stage. GW have set a price and said "This is worth X. If you want it you need to pay X." Very simple. Sure, its overpriced, but as with anything, if you don't feel it has a value to you of X, don't pay.

And yes, definitely easier. Also factual. The intelligence of a person is directly proportional to the amount of free cash in their pocket and inversely proportional the number of people in their mob. If someone thinks something will cost them a large percentage of their money, they start thinking with their wallets instead of logic and reason. If someone has 20 people all screaming that the redshirt is doing them over on prices, everyone becomes too dumb to stop and think that if they d9n't like it they can just go somewhere else, instead of burning the poor minimum wager for a witch.

Toofast wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

master of asgard wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The one thing Kirby doesn't never ever take into account is the random variable: people's stupidity.

I wasn't sure at first if this was a very subtle form of irony, playing on the fact that according to a large swathe of evidence, Kirby himself is an enormous idiot. I realise from your subsequent posts that you were in fact very serious.

On topic, I don't think it's expected that companies offer a discount. My policy when dealing with people who ask me for discounts is that we only give them to people who don't ask! However, it's a very common business practice to have sales or offer discounts from time to time.

Oh no, it was both. Kirby is an absolute moron if he thinks he can get away with running numbers and not taking into account the one thing no-one can control, which is human ideas and stupidity, entitlement, confusion. Human reaction is literally random.

It is completely expected. Since the bundles with no savings came out people have flocked to Dakka to scream and rage "GW, Y U No DISCOINT?!" Because they have been bred to believe that buying in bulk or as a package should come with a discount. If people didn't expect it this thread wouldn't be here.

Perhaps people expect a discount when buying more stuff because it's the industry standard in retail, especially luxury brands like GW likes to think of themselves as. If I buy a 6 pack of beer, it's more expensive per bottle than if I bought a 12 pack. Lots of clothing retailers have sales if you buy more than a certain dollar amount of product. It's simple, it gets the customers to spend more money. An item sold at 30% markup is better than an item sitting on your shelf collecting dust at 50% markup. For a company like GW experiencing declining revenue and a shrinking customer base, you would think they would have sales. It's just good business sense.

Good business sense is something GW seem to have a lack of. GW just see numbers on a page. To them a sale means a potential loss in
Potential gross income, as they sell £200 worth of product for £180. On the surface that looks absolutely stupid, loss of money. And as Ive been saying all alone, Kirby, because we know Kirby has marvellous business management and customer relations skills, does not take into account the fact that sales = repeat customers, and that £180 this time means £2000+ over the next few years, all for the loss of £20 or £30 once in a blue moon. Per person.

 Ailaros wrote:
This is all just an entitlement mentality, nothing more.

No it's not, it's reality. You are doing the retailer a favour by buying in bulk. The retailer does you a favour by offering you discounts and benefits. This is how it works more often than not. Hell, I'm not even a retailer, but we offer services on a day by day basis. If someone employs our services for several days instead of just one, we offer them a discount, we go the extra mile to tailor our services to them, we are more inclined to put in a few hours of overtime to make sure they're going away happy.

It's not entitlement mentality at all. It's the reality of how goods and services work, if you buy in bulk you are making the retailer more money faster and for less work.

When a retailer offers a bundle that gives no discount it's not only surprising for people but it's insulting the customer base's intelligence.

GW act like selling miniatures would be awesome if it weren't for all the pesky customers getting in the way of those wallets.

I have a waterstones card. Every 10th book gets me money off.
I have a shell fuel card, spending so much gets me vouchers for money off.
I have a Tesco and Morrisons card. Spending so much gets me vouchers for money off.
I have a Subway card. 10th sub is free.
I have a chinese buffet card, every 10th visit is free.
I bought 18 cans of coke yesterday as it was buy two (six packs) get one free.
I bought 3 Wispa Golds today at the garage as it was 46p each or 3 for a pound.

See where I'm going with this?
▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪
Yea but heres the kicker every discount in your list is for repeat useage and heres where gw is diffrent there product is not a buy use and gone like your list (minus waterstones) its buy and thats it the same product you bought say 10 years ago is still as usable now as it was then and (could) be as useable in another 10 years.id like to see your sub do that, so gw need to make as mmuch on each sale as possible. So no discount. I'd like discount but it is what it is and there still 100 mill+ in profit so they must be doing something right.

(Braced for whiteknight accusations and deluge of fiscal reports.)

Skullhammer wrote:

I have a waterstones card. Every 10th book gets me money off.
I have a shell fuel card, spending so much gets me vouchers for money off.
I have a Tesco and Morrisons card. Spending so much gets me vouchers for money off.
I have a Subway card. 10th sub is free.
I have a chinese buffet card, every 10th visit is free.
I bought 18 cans of coke yesterday as it was buy two (six packs) get one free.
I bought 3 Wispa Golds today at the garage as it was 46p each or 3 for a pound.

See where I'm going with this?
▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪
Yea but heres the kicker every discount in your list is for repeat useage and heres where gw is diffrent there product is not a buy use and gone like your list (minus waterstones) its buy and thats it the same product you bought say 10 years ago is still as usable now as it was then and (could) be as useable in another 10 years.id like to see your sub do that, so gw need to make as mmuch on each sale as possible. So no discount. I'd like discount but it is what it is and there still 100 mill+ in profit so they must be doing something right.

(Braced for whiteknight accusations and deluge of fiscal reports.)

The reason most the discounts are for repeat usage is because they are mostly services that you wouldn't want to buy in bulk. You don't buy 10 subs in one hit... but if you did they'd offer you the 10th one free as well.

You also ignored the 3 for the price of 2 cokes and 3 Wispa Golds (whatever the hell those are ).

Maaaaaaaany places offer savings for bulk (and even if they don't advertise it, if you ask you'll often get it), just as many places offer savings for return customers.

GW offer neither because they treat their customer base as price insensitive crack addicts who will buy it regardless of what they charge while ignoring that their customer base is shrinking and/or buying less.

(braced for GW hater allegations because apparently it's cool to disregard people before they've even had a chance to reply).

Businesses only do this because it is successful. As has been said before, even GW do this.

The problem with these bundles is a combination of two things; the implication that GW think people will buy them without checking the price (that their customers are stupid and they can make money on this), and how they treat the bundles as something exciting or a "release". It's bizarre.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Businesses only do this because it is successful. As has been said before, even GW do this.

The problem with these bundles is a combination of two things; the implication that GW think people will buy them without checking the price (that their customers are stupid and they can make money on this), and how they treat the bundles as something exciting or a "release". It's bizarre.

I mostly just see it as an insulting waste of time. Of course you're going to check the price, you'd be silly to do otherwise. So you go to the effort of adding up all the individual components and see the pricing is no different, it's hard to think anything other than "awesome, I just wasted my time to find out GW think I'm a fething moron" I know that's what I felt the first time I added up one of those bundles and saw the price was identical

I can only imagine they do it to catch the odd person who doesn't check (though for the amount of money they ask I can't imagine there are too many like that). At first I thought it might just be to show how cool a whole army or formation looks... but then I think it'd put more people off with the sticker shock of realising just how much an army costs when it's all done.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Did you ever take a course on economics out of curiosity?

Especially if someone took some economics he should understand why GW are acting the way they do. The relevant keywords are "demand function", "price elasticity", "opportunity/alternative costs" and "lock-in effect".

GW's advantage is - counterintuitively - that their prices are so high. Those who actually decide to get into the hobby and start an army have invested a considerable amount of money. Now the so called lock-in effect is simply that you can't just buy a few miniatures from another supplier and use them with your existing ones to play - you're locked with GW if you want to further use your previous 40k things.

The demand function in economics states (simplified) that you can either set a price and get a specific amount of demand in your market, or you want a specific amount of demand and have to set your price accordingly. What GW are doing is clearly setting the price. Price elasticity is a measure for telling how much more people will buy from you if you lower your prices or how much less if you raise them. Taken together you can find the settings for price and demand that optimise your turnover.

So what GW have with their customers is some sort of virtual monopoly, due to the lock-in. Sure, they will lose some customers at a given price level, but this is far less elastic ("price elastic") than in most other markets, cause the decision is not to go to a different supplier for an interchangeable good, but instead stopping 40k. And while some do this and/or do not buy stuff anymore from them, the tolerance with the rest is rather high, due to the high alternative costs (such people usually get called "fanboys" on internet boards ).

Most of the examples given in this thread do not really work. Gas stations have to do promotion actions and give aggregated rebates since the gas they are selling is interchangeable. You don't care from which station you get it. Same with Cinemas, you can see the same film. And so on.

So yes, in many cases bulk offers are a viable strategy. But I hope I could give you an understanding of a possible economic explanation of GW's behaviour.

That you might be pissing off those who you shouldn't piss off is a totally different story, though

I don't think anybody has doubted that they have a reason, just that their reason is ridiculous and just shows, IMHO, how out of touch and "ivory tower" they think they are. It's not only insulting to see a "collection" with zero savings, but it's also mind-numbingly stupid to present front and center such high prices for ultimately not a lot of things. A lot of their collections, not even getting into the outright insane "Who on earth would actually do this?" things like the entire SM Chapter for like ~$15,000, do nothing but show how expensive they really are. When you see something like 50 figures and 4 vehicles for $500 it makes you scratch your head because that's an awful small amount of models for a very high price that borders on ridiculous to expect someone has enough disposable income to just drop it in one shot on the collection versus buying the parts individually at a slower pace.

That last thing is what really gets me. I don't get who they are marketing those collections to. Not even getting into their prices, it's at least reasonable to expect somebody to make a purchase here and there for $100 or so, even a bit more than that if it's buying a bunch of things to get the core of an army. But paying a huge amount of money out of the door, especially for their collections which generally aren't even that good a selection for someone building a force, seems like it's just out there to be out there in the hopes some rich kid or person sees it and buys it just because they have that much money burning a hole in their pocket.

Here's something for you to consider. What constitues a discount?

How are GW being stupid and being out of touch in an "ivory tower"? That is ridiculous.

Think about it this way: If you want to field 2000 points why should they offer a discount? It is not a bulk purchase, it is one army.

One army.

Now if you were buying enough models to field ten 2000 point armies you might have a remote chance but what you think is bulk is, in reality, a simple small purchase.

I think your expectations are not really proportionate to the idea of what a "bulk" buy really is.

The easiest explanation would be that there are enough people buying it to justify doing those actions. Which would ultimately prove them right.

In the video game business, in conferences/talks it was always said that in Free 2 Play games you should always put in some ridiculously expensive (digital) item in your in game shop, since even if it is only 0.1% of all customers buying it, the turnover will already be more than 200 customers spending only 0.50 in average.

I guess we can assume that it pays for GW, or they wouldn't do it.

GW do offer bulk discounts to other traders, but what a regular collector calls 'bulk' probably isn't enough to peek their interest. Unlike many other commodities, such as food or electronics, miniatures don't really 'expire'. They also have a relatively high second hand value, and can even increase in value once OOP. If they gave large discount on armies then they would just get gobbled up by resellers and gaming groups splitting stuff, which would eat into their own sales. Most of their revenue comes from new players too. They expect to sell each person at least one army. It doesn't make sense for them to let people buy their entire collection at a discount.

I'm surprised they don't offer more of a discount on stuff like paint, but I don't see much point in discounting miniatures that they were probably going to sell anyway at full price.

You're conflating "discounts" with "wholesale."

GW offer their products at 40% off RRP before tax to third party retailers, in the context of this thread we're more realistically talking about 10-20% off.

Based on their own figures, they essentially double their money on their wholesale prices, so offering a discount to encourage greater spending and generate a little goodwill isn't really beyond them.

 Murenius wrote:
The easiest explanation would be that there are enough people buying it to justify doing those actions. Which would ultimately prove them right.

Given how rapidly their sales are falling I daresay GW have been proven very very wrong on this count.

I did not take any economics but some social psychology courses!
So did some research:

http://onlinebusiness.volusion.com/articles/using-the-psychology-of-discounts-to-make-more-money/
GW does remove the expectation of discounts which is a potential pitfall as outlined above.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/consumed/201209/differentiating-discounts
https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20130828112507-5670386-fuzzy-math-what-makes-something-seem-like-a-good-deal

https://medium.com/marketing-psychology/how-to-influence-consumer-buying-decisions-6aa4d51a598f
I like this article, think if GW increases prices across the board, waits a few months, then drops the price.
No "sale" just a change that is comparatively less than before.

http://trustedadvisor.com/articles/discounting-price-value-and-psychology
This completely backs-up the reasoning for no discounts.

http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2013/07/the-psychology-behind-steams-summer-sale/
Interesting techniques of putting things on sale, once a year and make it appear "random", "limited time".
Less "entitlement" behavior from the customer.

https://shopventory.com/blog/laws-of-price-strategy/
Some considerations for setting pricing, again, something GW appears to be following.

Just adds some bitterness to seeing GW is "doing it right" in some ways.

In a way, reading these articles we "deserve" the pricing we get due to the nature of customer we are.

It looks like the only logical reason for their decline is due to losing market share which this article outlines quite well:
http://hosted.comm100.com/knowledgebase/7-Ways-to-Increase-Market-Share-of-Business_A188.aspx?id=188&siteid=95439

Thanks all, this was of some interest!
Some of our "arguing" is understandable since much consumer behavior appears illogical (gasp!) and it is proven we are not reasonable when we set out to by our man dollies.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Given how rapidly their sales are falling I daresay GW have been proven very very wrong on this count.

Doesn't necessarily have a direct relation. Sales could be falling in other areas, but be ok with those bundles. Also, what the guy above said, a generally decreasing market or market share would result in falling sales throughout all sales channels.

 Azreal13 wrote:
discount to encourage greater spending.

If that were something they were interested in then they would do it across their entire range. Discounting army bundles would just enable customers to buy their stuff cheaper, which would essentially be the same thing.

It was not my intention to mislead. I was just pointing out that they may not consider an army bundle significant enough 'bulk' to discount. Wholesale is still a type of discount, which is presumably grounded in the idea of shifting a more significant amount (or range) of stock. While I understand there is a distinction, I don't think it is relevant. The end result in terms of money and stock is the same.

Around the initial launch of apoc a few years ago as their old retailer discount was much easier to get and if you brought in big enough numbers more generous. This lead to a large number of online only retailers selling at a big discount. This was further compounded by a small subset of retailers selling the sprues from the big apoc discount boxes separately doubling down on the discount (note this was against trading terms even then, most would stop once caught). Not every guard player wants or needs 9 leman russes at once, most would buy at least one at a compound discount of over 40%.

When GW had a rethink over their dealings with online retailers tightening up the trading terms and reducing discounts they also cut back on most of the discount boxes as well. We've seen a long price readjustment upwards from GW since this period and more and more restrictive online terms for retailers. I suspect this period they considered how much cash they were losing "letting" other people sell their goods as one online store is as good as another for a customer when the product and the price is the same, and decided that they wanted a far bigger piece of that pie. An online only store wouldn't help grow the hobby in an area or be anywhere near the hard work that a good FLGS is.

The final stage is to offer either additional value (that stupid cardboard box or the badges for example), loyalty schemes (service skulls) or discounts. Discounts are going to be tricky in the EU as there are rules, but elsewhere it seems to be fair game.

Buy two - get two full price!

And this is why I will never buy anything direct from GW. Massively overcosted.

I seriously wonder how they ever sell anything direct when you can just go to an independent and get stuff 25% cheaper. Or in my case, ebay.

Sad thing is I remember back in the day a lot of deals they would have in the back of White Dwarf. Armies at like 30% or more, buy two boxes get the third 50% off, not to mention that you could call up the Mail Order Trolls and sometimes they could get manager approval to give you a discount or deal on something if you were buying in bulk. Like hey I'm starting a new army and buying $200 worth of stuff, maybe throw in a free blister pack with a commander, or give me the codex at half price. And they would do that stuff all the time.

Of course that was also when their stuff was reasonably priced. When they increased the scale of the game, prices should have stayed roughly the same as they were then. $25 for 10 guys would be fine even nowadays.

Do you realize that $25 in 1995 had the same buying power as $38.82 in 2014, due to inflation?

So the current tactical marine squad for $40 is the same worth as $25.76 in 1995.

 Smacks wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
discount to encourage greater spending.

If that were something they were interested in then they would do it across their entire range. Discounting army bundles would just enable customers to buy their stuff cheaper, which would essentially be the same thing.

It was not my intention to mislead. I was just pointing out that they may not consider an army bundle significant enough 'bulk' to discount. Wholesale is still a type of discount, which is presumably grounded in the idea of shifting a more significant amount (or range) of stock. While I understand there is a distinction, I don't think it is relevant. The end result in terms of money and stock is the same.

Technically yes, but I've held trade accounts where I've set them up on the off chance of needing an alternate supply, and never used them, equally, if I called one of those accounts up and ordered one, low value item on one occasion, I'd still pay the wholesale price. Now, it isn't unusual for wholesalers to offer bulk discounts either, and I believe there is a tier system with GW for independents to that effect, but while. Bulk discount and wholesale do have a lot in common, they are different animals.

With regard to discounted army bundles, that isn't necessarily the only way to do things. Take the Land Raider for instance, they're what, £45 a pop right now? So you charge £90 for two, but perhaps £110 for three. By GW's own figures, a Land Raider costs them about £10 to make (actually a lot less, because I'm sure the Land Raider kit has long since recovered it's development and tooling costs, but we'll stick to averages for simplicity)

So two Land Raiders = £52 gross profit approximately at RRP once VAT and production costs have been accounted for.

Now, if I need two Land Raiders in this hypothetical situation, disregarding outside factors such as other retailers offering discounts etc, what incentive do I have to buy a third? Absolutely none.

Now, if there's a three pack available, that essentially offers the third kit for half price, the dynamics of my decision making as a customer change. I only require two, but for a relatively small amount extra, I can has three. The financials still work in GW's favour, they are making more money selling you three than selling you two, but simultaneously I'm gaining from the deal too. So I decide to spend £20 extra than I intended, I get an extra LR and GW earn more cash.

This is why discounts are a good thing, they encourage the customer to spend more, but solicit a feeling of good will at the same time because they're getting increased value, and make the company more too.

GW don't appear to share that attitude, they appear to view selling a third kit at a discount as money lost, rather than money gained, because why wouldn't you buy three anyway?

Of course, if I wanted three Land Raiders, then GW have made less from me than they would if selling me three single kits, but then you have to factor in all the intangibles - am I predisposed to spend more in the future because I feel better treated as a customer? Do I spend just as much anyway on some other products because the cash is now "free money?" Do I start a whole new army because the multi purchase discounts tip the cost in favour of what I can spend and result in me spending hundreds of pounds?

One cannot ever accurately assess how much or how little of an impact those sort of factors have, because one cannot accurately assess all of the product one doesn't sell,but these sorts of factors are definitely at play.

Now, I'm not saying every single item that GW sell should be offered at a discount if bought in multiples, but to offer key things that are required to build a typical army as a multi buy discount makes sense for all involved. Someone at GW obviously agrees, we've seen the squad + transport deals recently, hell, it isn't even alien to GW, Rhinos used to come three to a box, and further development in that direction is likely to be positive for everyone.

 Murenius wrote:
Do you realize that $25 in 1995 had the same buying power as $38.82 in 2014, due to inflation?

So the current tactical marine squad for $40 is the same worth as $25.76 in 1995.

I was making the point that they've always been overpriced, but $25 would be acceptable today as opposed to 10 years ago.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Murenius wrote:
Do you realize that $25 in 1995 had the same buying power as $38.82 in 2014, due to inflation?
So the current tactical marine squad for $40 is the same worth as $25.76 in 1995.

I was making the point that they've always been overpriced, but $25 would be acceptable today as opposed to 10 years ago.

What is difficult is to compare what is "fair" pricing, some quotes from my above links:

Price-Quality Effect- Customers worry less about the price if higher prices denote higher quality. Creating a perception of exclusivity, rareness or quality will persuade the buyer to be ok spending more. The product itself doesn’t need to be of the highest quality. If the branding denotes a high-quality ethos, customers will spend.

Looks like Kirby is trying this method to justify cost, all we have to do is believe him...

And plenty of people do, just check out the most-recent "why do you like 40K?" threads.

And obviously they do this well since we've got a lot of people here who claim to be pissed off by GW, yet spend their precious life time bashing them instead of just ignoring it. I guess that's part of why GW feel like they can get away with everything - people not talking about their stuff is worse than people trash talking about it.

 Murenius wrote:
And obviously they do this well since we've got a lot of people here who claim to be pissed off by GW, yet spend their precious life time bashing them instead of just ignoring it. I guess that's part of why GW feel like they can get away with everything - people not talking about their stuff is worse than people trash talking about it.

Likelihood is that for every person on here grandstanding about how gak GW are and how they're quitting, there's a good number more that simply slip quietly away.

 Murenius wrote:
And obviously they do this well since we've got a lot of people here who claim to be pissed off by GW, yet spend their precious life time bashing them instead of just ignoring it. I guess that's part of why GW feel like they can get away with everything - people not talking about their stuff is worse than people trash talking about it.

Seriously, why does every pro-GW post inevitably boil down to dismissing anyone critical about the company as haters who just bash GW to bash GW?

GW is acting as if it is operating in a vacuum, that nobody else operates in their market. That way there is no need to compete and offer deals, etc to win and retain custom.

In the strict sense they are right, in that nobody else makes actual 40K miniatures BUT there are many competing wargames which GW customers can switch to playing.

GW clearly take the attitude that their own brand is so much better, in terms of quality and range of figures, fluff, community, etc, etc that they are not really competing with the 'lesser' games, that people who are 'fickle' enough to move aren't worth retaining.

Either that or they take the Aston Martin approach, that their's is the luxury brand in the market, the aspirational range and to discount actually undermines that. Let the 'lesser' brands compete and scrabble for business, our stuff sells itself and gamers aspire to the luxury element, showing off their wealth and success by buying GW products. If they want to position themselves in that niche then they actively don't want either to enter any kind of discounting as it devalues the luxury element or want those customers, "if you have to ask the price you can't afford it".

Sadly I think they are mistaken. They have locked themselves into a position where they don't and won't discount, but have not achieved the desired luxury, aspirational position. Their drop in sales indicates that their prices, offering and/or business practices are putting off customers.

For my money they are a company locked into an old-fashioned position. They were the only game in town for years, their products were so far ahead that they were aspirational, serious gamers wanted their figures which were hugely superior in design and quality than others. Their products sold themselves. their management took this for granted and a few years ago decided to take advantage and begin a steep price increase. Their timing was wrong. This came at the time when PP and others were starting to really get going and there now was an alternative. Any players not absolutely loyal to GW who wanted to just play a wargame and collect minis could switch and the price pressure encouraged them to do so.

Since then the situation has only grown worse, high prices and no offers have locked them into a reliance on charging large sums in order to keep up profits and pay dividends. Any sane company with some operating capital and no debts would respond to falling sales by trying to broaden sales, looking for strategies to increase sales even if it meant less unit profit. Their management must know that they need to broaden their sales base and actual sales numbers. Otherwise they will become dependent totally upon high prices to keep them afloat and their room for manoeuvre will be gone.

Personally I have zero interest in anyone else's games, it's GW or nought for me. However, many of my friends don't feel like that. They like games and aren't totally wedded to GW's brand and background. They are willing to switch if they feel they can get more bang for their bucks, so guess what - they've switched. They don't aspire to return to GW forced away by a lack of wealth on their part but always aspiring to be GW buyers. They see PP and see less £$ and go for it.

GW had a golden opportunity to open up to outside influences and learn from experts in other retail fields, infuse themselves with new blood and change things - they needed a new CEO. BUT instead of sensibly looking outside and recruiting, a brave and sensible company would have poached the CEO of the most successful rival who'd eaten into their profits, learn and adapt. The fact that they promoted from within is a poor reflection. 20% sales fall, so let's have more of the same? Are they mad? Clearly the guy is Tom's puppet and he will continue in charge from behind the scenes.

The way they run the company still leads me to believe that the senior people see it as a mine. they have no interest or empathy with games and merely bought it as a vehicle to maximise their pensions. Bizarre shenanigans like spending £4m on a website that should have been far cheaper suggest clever-clever money flows, etc. I'm not suggesting any wrongdoing, merely a leadership who see GW as a way to mine out cash for their pensions. They don't care what happens after they retire, there is no long-term planning as far as I can see. They operate like a firm trying to maximise profit now sacrificing long term growth and stability. It's as if the price rises coincide with someone at the top thinking "I'm not getting any younger, let's go up a gear and take as much as possible before I have to retire".

However, there are some encouraging signs for me. The new release schedule, the End Times, etc. Miniature quality is as high as it's ever been. Still the CEO thing left me stunned and upset if I'm honest. I genuinely fear that GW have lost their chance of reform and survival, picked Tom's clone and effectively committed long-term suicide.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Seriously, why does every pro-GW post inevitably boil down to dismissing anyone critical about the company as haters who just bash GW to bash GW?

I'm not pro-GW. I just see the world in a bit more complex way than "pro GW" and "contra GW". I never stated that I find it good what GW does. In fact I'd prefer cheaper models and more friends in the hobby. But I understand why they do their strategy. And I hate it when people try to make the world easier for themselves by ignoring facts and dividing everything in "for me" and "against me".

 Azreal13 wrote:
Now, if there's a three pack available, that essentially offers the third kit for half price, the dynamics of my decision making as a customer change. I only require two, but for a relatively small amount extra, I can has three. The financials still work in GW's favour, they are making more money selling you three than selling you two, but simultaneously I'm gaining from the deal too. So I decide to spend £20 extra than I intended, I get an extra LR and GW earn more cash.

I would just buy three and put one on ebay for ~£30, or go splitsies with a friend. As I said before, landraiders don't expire, and there would probably be enough people selling their extra that you would never be able to NOT get a new land raider for £30. Why would anyone buy the £45 one? It's just gonna eat straight back into their own sales.

You can't underestimate this. The thriving 2nd hand market is a big issue for GW. Stuff that's 20 years old and painted is still circulating, being stripped down and resold, competing with new stuff.

I don't disagree that discounts generally would lead to more sales. If land raiders were £15 each I'd probably buy about ten. At £25 each I'd get a couple. At £45 I won't buy any. I have always wanted one, but I never quite felt they were worth splurging on. I don't know what the optimum price point is. My instinct tells me that it is a lot less than they are charging now, but I see a lot of people on dakka who are still buying and starting new armies, so what do I know? If their current price is optimal, then I see no reason to undermine that by offering discounts and saturating the market further with cheap stuff.

A thriving second hand market cannot exist without a thriving primary market.

Where would all those Land Raiders people are buying on eBay for £30 come from?

If people weren't buying them new from GW, then the supply would start to dry up, prices would rise and people would start buying them new again.

The web bundles shouldn't be thought of in the context of "3 for the price of 2" style offers, but more akin to a mannequin in a shop window wearing a combination of clothing items to show the consumer what a whole "outfit" may look like.

 Bottle wrote:
The web bundles shouldn't be thought of in the context of "3 for the price of 2" style offers, but more akin to a mannequin in a shop window wearing a combination of clothing items to show the consumer what a whole "outfit" may look like.

Meh...I think its a bit dishonest. I don't begrudge them the right to do it or anything, but when people see bundles, they assume discounts, and it's a pretty clear trap for people without enough common sense to check the pricing, or especially for people unfamiliar with the game trying to drop a load for that special 40k gamer in their life.

Its an impulse buy sell. Or a knowledge-less customer sell.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
This is all just an entitlement mentality, nothing more.

No it's not, it's reality. You are doing the retailer a favour by buying in bulk. The retailer does you a favour by offering you discounts and benefits. This is how it works more often than not. Hell, I'm not even a retailer, but we offer services on a day by day basis. If someone employs our services for several days instead of just one, we offer them a discount, we go the extra mile to tailor our services to them, we are more inclined to put in a few hours of overtime to make sure they're going away happy.

It's not entitlement mentality at all. It's the reality of how goods and services work, if you buy in bulk you are making the retailer more money faster and for less work.

When a retailer offers a bundle that gives no discount it's not only surprising for people but it's insulting the customer base's intelligence.

GW act like selling miniatures would be awesome if it weren't for all the pesky customers getting in the way of those wallets.

Several times in the past I have advanced the notion is that GW's ideal business model would to have a web store and customers put their credit card in and spend money.

The money goes to GW's account, nno models or rules result, and that is Teh HHHobby.

 Azreal13 wrote:
A thriving second hand market cannot exist without a thriving primary market.

Where would all those Land Raiders people are buying on eBay for £30 come from?

As I said, land raiders don't expire. I've bought and sold stuff on ebay that I know has been owned multiple times. But that is beside the point. I already explained where the £30 land raiders come from. They come from people buying the cheaper three pack and splitting it instead of buying three single packs.

If people weren't buying them new from GW, then the supply would start to dry up, prices would rise and people would start buying them new again.

I didn't say people wouldn't buy new. I said they wouldn't buy new for £45.

GW is expensive enough that many people will view bulk buying and splitting as a means of saving money. This means rather than selling more land raiders, they would just be selling roughly the same amount for less money. A few extra impulse buys probably isn't going to offset all the people who would stop buying a single pack for £45.

 Bottle wrote:
The web bundles shouldn't be thought of in the context of "3 for the price of 2" style offers, but more akin to a mannequin in a shop window wearing a combination of clothing items to show the consumer what a whole "outfit" may look like.

I agree. But I also think there should be two styles. The web bundle like you said, that provides a "complete" army with no savings. But there should also be a Battleforce that provides certain units, say 2 Rhinos and 2 tac quads or something) for 75-80% of the price.

 Murenius wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Given how rapidly their sales are falling I daresay GW have been proven very very wrong on this count.

Doesn't necessarily have a direct relation. Sales could be falling in other areas, but be ok with those bundles. Also, what the guy above said, a generally decreasing market or market share would result in falling sales throughout all sales channels.

My point was that these bundles with no discounts where part of a larger business plan and general mentality that they are a boutique company and sales would undermine that somehow.

Given that GW has seen no growth beyond inflation and then the crash of the last financial report during a period where the wider tabletop hobby has been experiencing unprecidented growth I think I can objectively say GWs current business plan is failing.

One could argue that if they did offer a sale or something they would be doing even worse than they are now but I'd argue the burden of proof is on the person claiming competing in a market would be worse than not.

I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

 jason1977 wrote:
I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

+1..... many times over.

Even special order items don't take long to get in and are 15-25% off. And my local GW store employee is a dick.

However, GW store are fun to go into to drool at boxes and plan out the next several years of my free time

 jason1977 wrote:
I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

I get a good discount at my flgs. Not as good as I'd get on ebay, but fair. That considered, the added benefit of contributing to my local economy and helping to keep afloat a local independent gaming shop, which, to be honest, I play at rarely, but is available for almost any immediate hobby needs I may have, is worth the extra money every time.

 jasper76 wrote:

 jason1977 wrote:
I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

I get a good discount at my flgs. Not as good as I'd get on ebay, but fair. That considered, the added benefit of contributing to my local economy and helping to keep afloat a local independent gaming shop, which, to be honest, I play at rarely, but is available for almost any immediate hobby needs I may have, is worth the extra money every time.

Plus, they probably carry non-GW stuff

Talys wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 jason1977 wrote:
I fposted before sorry:
\
Never buy direct from GW unless you have too.

Visit your local gaming store. They should offer a discount. Yes, GW does see the money in the end but not with whatever markup they charge for a direct sale. Plus by going local, it doesnt get lost in shipping.

I get a good discount at my flgs. Not as good as I'd get on ebay, but fair. That considered, the added benefit of contributing to my local economy and helping to keep afloat a local independent gaming shop, which, to be honest, I play at rarely, but is available for almost any immediate hobby needs I may have, is worth the extra money every time.

Plus, they probably carry non-GW stuff

Oh yeah...I dare say, they carry mostly non-GW stuff, but they always have plenty of each and every non-special order GW box on stock, plus a lovely resale bin where the seller names their own price

<---removed local plug, in case the GW cops are on patrol --->

Talys wrote:Even special order items don't take long to get in and are 15-25% off.

My local places don't offer discount on direct only stuff as the wholesale price is higher so they can't offer the same discounts. Unless by "special order items" you just mean regular order items that they don't have on the shelf.

If it's not on the shelf I don't order stuff in any more as GW so often screws around with my FLGS and takes ages to deliver the product.

Murenius wrote:The relevant keywords are "demand function", "price elasticity", "opportunity/alternative costs" and "lock-in effect".

I think the lock in effect for GW is overstated. There is definitely a group of 40k crack addicts who will just keep buying GW stuff, not denying that, but I think there's a huge group of people who have bought 1 or 2 boxes of stuff then gone no further with it. I know tons of people who when you mention Warhammer will tell you they've bought some things but didn't continue with it. Peoples' houses I've gone in and seen boxes with the GW branding and I ask them about it and they say that's all they have.

I don't think GW have the luxury of thinking that a couple of sales means they've locked in a customer.

As for the other stuff, that's all up for debate. We know GW think their customers are price insensitive and their supply/demand curve is a vertical line of constant quantity, yet anecdotally we see people quitting because of the price all the time. Just because there's a group of addicts who are price insensitive doesn't mean the customer base as a whole is price insensitive.

But it's all conjecture, all we know is GW has been moving less product at a higher price from their reports, we don't know if they have less customers (and I doubt they know either) or the exact cause of it (and again I doubt they know either).

It's sad that GW doesn't give ANYTHING back to the consumer at all. I bought a bunch of the apoc formations as well as two of the SM battle companies (I really should have stopped at one). But they were really good deals.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But it's all conjecture, all we know is GW has been moving less product at a higher price from their reports, we don't know if they have less customers (and I doubt they know either) or the exact cause of it (and again I doubt they know either).

Their revenue and profits are declining, and as you say they're moving less product at higher prices. Its simple maths: they have less customers. People who continue to play the game but don't buy anything from them aren't customers. Whether they know why or not is an interesting question, but i'm more interested in knowing if they care. The explanation i've heard that makes the most sense to me suggests that they don't.

 Torga_DW wrote:
Its simple maths: they have less customers.

My point was that the only thing we know is they are selling less product, the rest is conjecture... you can't say they definitely have less customers without more information than we have. I tend to think they do have less customers, but there's no way to tell if they have the same number (or possibly even more) customers who are just buying less.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Its simple maths: they have less customers.

My point was that the only thing we know is they are selling less product, the rest is conjecture... you can't say they definitely have less customers without more information than we have. I tend to think they do have less customers, but there's no way to tell if they have the same number (or possibly even more) customers who are just buying less.

Possibly, i fail to grasp the logic that would indicate this though. They're selling less product at higher prices and making less money, i don't see how that indicates the same level (or possibly even more) of customers. Not trying to be snarky with that, i just don't see how it's plausible. Especially when rival companies are growing. The problem with the price rises is it makes it harder for people to make the small impulse buys and remain a customer because there's literally nothing within that price range except paint.

 Torga_DW wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Its simple maths: they have less customers.

My point was that the only thing we know is they are selling less product, the rest is conjecture... you can't say they definitely have less customers without more information than we have. I tend to think they do have less customers, but there's no way to tell if they have the same number (or possibly even more) customers who are just buying less.

Possibly, i fail to grasp the logic that would indicate this though. They're selling less product at higher prices and making less money, i don't see how that indicates the same level (or possibly even more) of customers. Not trying to be snarky with that, i just don't see how it's plausible. Especially when rival companies are growing. The problem with the price rises is it makes it harder for people to make the small impulse buys and remain a customer because there's literally nothing within that price range except paint.

It's not overly hard to explain why it might be the case (and I'm not saying it is the case), but GW are the largest company in wargaming, if they are starting to reach the point of saturation where most people who would be interested in wargaming are already wargamers and already know of 40k through video games and what not, so they can't massively grow their customer base any more like they did in the 90's. Existing customers may buy less because their own collections are large, so they only buy the odd thing as they need it rather than entire armies. If they then lose customers at the same or lower rate as they gain new ones, they would maintain the same (or possibly larger) customer base while selling less to each individual customer.

Because GW are the largest company, it's not hard to imagine that they could be approaching saturation while other smaller companies are not.

I'm not saying that's definitely what's happening, but customer retention is a very important factor yet a difficult thing to actually quantify. I'm sure there's many people who already own one or more 40k/WHFB army, GW did the work of getting them in to the hobby but now that they already have 40k/WHFB collections they are more likely to spend money on other non-GW things.

If GW would sell stuff for a reasonable price (and not two or three times more), it's pretty likely people would buy a couple more boxes than they actually need. With so messed up prices, it's likely they actually buy less. Not to mention starting whole new armies.

Since after the initial investment plastic frames production cost is dirt cheap, gw could actually do that.

I feel like if GW dropped their prices their sales would increase more than enough to compensate. I'm shocked their not testing this more.

GW's problem is 4 fold

High Prices: Not much to explain. People want cheaper stuff.

Competitors and discount retailers: They provide alternate models at cheaper prices and the same GW models at a cheaper price. This encourages people to move away from GW Direct. This also includes things such as video games and other forms of entertainment like Netflix which people in the last 10 years have been using instead of the models of old.

Loss of customers and revenue: As high prices drive customers to other companies, revenue goes down. As customers go discount, profit drops accordingly. Think about it. If every customer suddenly switched from buying everything Direct to a 10% discount retailer, gross income drops 10% on sales. As the money coming in lowers.

Shareholders and private investments and greed on accoiunt of the company owners like Kirby: As money coming in drops, that is less money for the share holders and the investors dry up, which means the company goes down the toilet and Kirby can no longer line his pockets with 20s and wipe his backside with £5s. Therefore, in order to maintain the same income or higher, they must raise prices. This in turn creates high prices in a perpetual cycle.



The only way I see for the death spin to stop is for the guys at the top to stop being greedy, take a hit to their pockets and actually take some time to grow the customer base by lowering prices. GW like to think they are the big dogs but in reality they are terriers fighting against packs of rats (small and numerous, nothing to do with their ethics or whatever), bullying puppies and kittens and living in the shadow of German Shepherds.

Ok, well lets say for what ever reason GW can't/won't reduce their prices. Does anyone have any ideas how else they might be able to add value to their product?

loyalty cards? Christmas sales? get a paint pot half price with each box etc

Taffy17 wrote:
Ok, well lets say for what ever reason GW can't/won't reduce their prices. Does anyone have any ideas how else they might be able to add value to their product?

loyalty cards? Christmas sales? get a paint pot half price with each box etc

Add more figures? Instead of 5 for $50 (Sternguard) give 10. Provide everything needed to make a complete unit with all the options in the box (e.g. If I buy a tactical squad give me one of each heavy weapon).

That's the second biggest problem (first being the shoddy rules). It's not so much the prices as it is what you get for the money. For whatever reason, right or wrong, GW feels like they are ripping you off and deliberately giving you less figures/useful options to push you to buy multiple boxes and therefore spend more.

I have zero problem buying a $50 box for Warmahordes because it feels like good value: I get the full unit, not the minimum, and I can field them with everything I need (in part because they don't have "1 model can have X at +Y points"), and they represent a nice piece of an army. Buying a $50 box from GW feels like you're getting a lot less, because:

A) You're likely only getting the minimal number of models, so you'd need to buy a second box to make a full squad, and most of the time you want a full squad.
B) You probably do not get all of the available options on the sprue, so you'll have to buy another box or even a different box (e.g. Devastator Squad) to outfit the squad with what you want, and the options you can field out of the box nobody in their right mind would really field if they cared about the game
C) The squad represents only a small portion of your force and there's a lot of duplication in regular squads, so it feels like you're just spending a lot of money to get more of the same thing to bulk out your force, not because they are actually useful.

That's not even getting into things like solos/smaller units from PP costing a lot less than GW's single characters and the like, and the current ridiculousness of making everything limited and selling out in minutes/hours. It all just in general adds to this feeling that GW considers you to be an idiot who drools over everything they make and feel that you must buy it right now because it's GW and it's awesome, and who cares if you need to buy 2 boxes to make one unit because the figures are so shiny and pretty and the best in the universe. They don't make you feel like a customer, they make you feel like a mark who is getting conned by a snake oil salesman.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Ok, well lets say for what ever reason GW can't/won't reduce their prices. Does anyone have any ideas how else they might be able to add value to their product?

loyalty cards? Christmas sales? get a paint pot half price with each box etc

Add more figures? Instead of 5 for $50 (Sternguard) give 10. Provide everything needed to make a complete unit with all the options in the box (e.g. If I buy a tactical squad give me one of each heavy weapon).

That's the second biggest problem (first being the shoddy rules). It's not so much the prices as it is what you get for the money. For whatever reason, right or wrong, GW feels like they are ripping you off and deliberately giving you less figures/useful options to push you to buy multiple boxes and therefore spend more.

I have zero problem buying a $50 box for Warmahordes because it feels like good value: I get the full unit, not the minimum, and I can field them with everything I need (in part because they don't have "1 model can have X at +Y points"), and they represent a nice piece of an army. Buying a $50 box from GW feels like you're getting a lot less, because:

A) You're likely only getting the minimal number of models, so you'd need to buy a second box to make a full squad, and most of the time you want a full squad.
B) You probably do not get all of the available options on the sprue, so you'll have to buy another box or even a different box (e.g. Devastator Squad) to outfit the squad with what you want, and the options you can field out of the box nobody in their right mind would really field if they cared about the game
C) The squad represents only a small portion of your force and there's a lot of duplication in regular squads, so it feels like you're just spending a lot of money to get more of the same thing to bulk out your force, not because they are actually useful.

That's not even getting into things like solos/smaller units from PP costing a lot less than GW's single characters and the like, and the current ridiculousness of making everything limited and selling out in minutes/hours. It all just in general adds to this feeling that GW considers you to be an idiot who drools over everything they make and feel that you must buy it right now because it's GW and it's awesome, and who cares if you need to buy 2 boxes to make one unit because the figures are so shiny and pretty and the best in the universe. They don't make you feel like a customer, they make you feel like a mark who is getting conned by a snake oil salesman.

This.

For a decent size IG force you'll need a lot of guys. For 1000 points you'll need around 50, that's 5 boxes, and for this you get no special weapons (only the two lamest ones) no heavy weapons. You can't make veterans out of the box (no carapace armor, no melta bomb, no demolition charge, no camo cloak, no plasma, no melta, no sniper). You have 5 boxes, all containing basic options. And with that you don't have an army, you have your most basic troop choice's cheapest half.

You need a lot of boxes, the boxes come with lame options, and the boxes are expensive. This is wrong on all the ways possible. You can't be this stupid by yourself, you need to intentionally mess this up. And this is true on nearly all and every level where gw operates.

Not to mention that you often need/want transport vehicles which cost almost as much (sometimes more, sometimes? less) as the box itself, so before you even get into needing multiple boxes, you need to buy double (once for the unit, once for the transport). So that just adds more to the idea that you aren't treated like a customer, you're treated like a sucker who will pay anything and is too stupid to realize you're paying 3+ times for a single unit that represents like 1/10th of your force, so in reality you are paying 3+ multiple times over.

Well, GW seems to clearly think they are selling a premium item and do not want to devalue it through sales and set unreasonable customer expectations.

We now boil down to two customer types:
1) Those who have many models, enough for full forces and are "locked in" the hobby and need to spend to be current (updates of codex's, rules and new models).
2) New hobbyists who do not know of the upkeep costs and are attracted to the introductory game sets that are somewhat competitive in price. Then they become like customer type #1 since they are now invested into the hobby.

The loud complaining that have been referenced is us old guys who remember GW "doing it right" in the past and keep believing (hoping?) those times could come again.

It seems sad as my very large 40k collection gathers dust as I dust-off Battletech, actively play X-wing (with great joy) and just got my starter set of Warmachine and (gasp!) find the tactics more competitive and fun than what I am used to. I had sold-off a full Tau force once, and gave away an Eldar force to a cousin short on cash but long on interest: I regretted both of those instances. I will not sell off my collections ever.

So I will always be willing to point out possible ways GW could go, since I have the models, only need to be enticed by a half decent game rule-set. Large sales like buy 3 and get at the price of 2 (2 1/2 maybe?) will always be of interest and cause someone like me to think of opening up my wallet.

I actually was in a weird situation because I was a veteran gamer but all my models (well, the vast majority) were destroyed in a flood, so when I wanted to play 40k again I had to basically start from scratch, and the "new" GW quickly turned me off from the idea completely because it wasn't the company that I had remembered. Even if I used the bit of figures I still have, the cost would be crazy for ultimately a small amount more.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I actually was in a weird situation because I was a veteran gamer but all my models (well, the vast majority) were destroyed in a flood, so when I wanted to play 40k again I had to basically start from scratch, and the "new" GW quickly turned me off from the idea completely because it wasn't the company that I had remembered. Even if I used the bit of figures I still have, the cost would be crazy for ultimately a small amount more.

In the same position as you I would probably "jazz-hands" and go to something completely different.
There would be an improper sense of frustration I would think.
Yeah, a flood wrecking what I have now... no, best not to dwell on it.

 Talizvar wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I actually was in a weird situation because I was a veteran gamer but all my models (well, the vast majority) were destroyed in a flood, so when I wanted to play 40k again I had to basically start from scratch, and the "new" GW quickly turned me off from the idea completely because it wasn't the company that I had remembered. Even if I used the bit of figures I still have, the cost would be crazy for ultimately a small amount more.

In the same position as you I would probably "jazz-hands" and go to something completely different.
There would be an improper sense of frustration I would think.
Yeah, a flood wrecking what I have now... no, best not to dwell on it.

That's basically why I do not play 40k. It's not so much that I don't want to, but I can't justify spending that kind of money on an overall lackluster game. I play Warmachine instead because, while it often doesn't feel as enjoyable, it feels much better overall and, as I stated above, I don't feel like the company is trying to nickle and dime me into spending a truckload of money on basic things.

I look for example at the recent Blood Angel miniatures and while they look cool, I then immediately think of how little that actually is and how much more I'll need to buy to get a playable force for game night at the 40k-centric FLGS, and then I say "Feth that!" once I see what it would cost me. Same thing happened with the Dark Eldar, and Space Wolves, and Crimson Slaughter, etc. I look at the figures, think they do look cool, and then grimace when I determine what extra I need.

If the miniature count was like it used to be in 2nd edition, then their pricing on things would be just about acceptable, a little high but not crazy. Their boxed sets would shoot up in value, but you'd need less so they would view it overall as being a net loss.

Edit: Whoops, wrong thread! I need sleep

I don't think so seeing as SW didn't.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think their idea is to trap people who think "there must be a saving in buying this bundle" but never actually check out the cost of the bundle.

It's entirely this.

pm713 wrote:
I don't think so seeing as SW didn't.

Space Wolves don't use the Tactical Kit though. Besides, wrong thread, thought this was the BA rumours.

The firebase support cadre, although not a set like the one you are describing did provide some savings. It is a formation for tau, I picked up at gw store, $285, included 6 broadsides($300 retail) and a riptide($85).

"Battleforce" boxes are another example of how you can get new models for less than standard retail.

Those of you looking for deals and not able to find them aren't looking hard enough.

Does gw give good deals? Never. You pay more for the models than their weight in gold by a substantial margin.

But I love the "universe" so I keep playing...and paying.

Epartalis wrote:
The firebase support cadre, although not a set like the one you are describing did provide some savings. It is a formation for tau, I picked up at gw store, $285, included 6 broadsides($300 retail) and a riptide($85).

"Battleforce" boxes are another example of how you can get new models for less than standard retail.

Those of you looking for deals and not able to find them aren't looking hard enough.

Does gw give good deals? Never. You pay more for the models than their weight in gold by a substantial margin.

But I love the "universe" so I keep playing...and paying.

It's not a matter of not being able to find them, it's the fact that the company touts their figures as some exotic luxury item when they're plastic multi-part kits the same as other models, but they cost about twice more (and you need a lot more) because reasons.

I get good deals when I order the bundles through my LGS. Although I am of the opinion that most of the gw models are reasonably priced with the exception of the individual special characters and some of the forge world stuff. From what I have seen from the various offerings of other companies are higher prices with fewer part options.
I will defend the comment of "40k a lackluster game" by saying a powered armored Space Marine would own any steampunk/Goldberg machine in real life!

Why how do they supply more parts. If you want to play IG you have to recast plasmaguns and meltaguns. If you buy a tac the weapons you want to use them are in the devastator box, so you have to buy two boxs to get 1 unit.

Makumba wrote:
Why how do they supply more parts. If you want to play IG you have to recast plasmaguns and meltaguns. If you buy a tac the weapons you want to use them are in the devastator box, so you have to buy two boxs to get 1 unit.

That second part is IMHO one of the worst grievances that GW does. There is ZERO reason for that other than to push you to buy a second pricey box to make a single unit.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Why how do they supply more parts. If you want to play IG you have to recast plasmaguns and meltaguns. If you buy a tac the weapons you want to use them are in the devastator box, so you have to buy two boxs to get 1 unit.

That second part is IMHO one of the worst grievances that GW does. There is ZERO reason for that other than to push you to buy a second pricey box to make a single unit.

You know what would be good? Micro-sprues, little blister packs containing an individual heavy weapon guy. It would be overpriced but it would be cheaper than buying an entire new squad.

 Jape wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Why how do they supply more parts. If you want to play IG you have to recast plasmaguns and meltaguns. If you buy a tac the weapons you want to use them are in the devastator box, so you have to buy two boxs to get 1 unit.

That second part is IMHO one of the worst grievances that GW does. There is ZERO reason for that other than to push you to buy a second pricey box to make a single unit.

You know what would be good? Micro-sprues, little blister packs containing an individual heavy weapon guy. It would be overpriced but it would be cheaper than buying an entire new squad.

Funny they used to have those. Came with one heavy and one regular bolter guy.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Jape wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Why how do they supply more parts. If you want to play IG you have to recast plasmaguns and meltaguns. If you buy a tac the weapons you want to use them are in the devastator box, so you have to buy two boxs to get 1 unit.

That second part is IMHO one of the worst grievances that GW does. There is ZERO reason for that other than to push you to buy a second pricey box to make a single unit.

You know what would be good? Micro-sprues, little blister packs containing an individual heavy weapon guy. It would be overpriced but it would be cheaper than buying an entire new squad.

Funny they used to have those. Came with one heavy and one regular bolter guy.

Funny, I still have 3 blister packs of one metal heavy bolter guy each I was planning to use for Deathwatch models.
I guess we could only see micro-sprues now, since metal is out of the question.

Wait, so Forge World sells a combination package that includes one Reaver and two Warhound titans! http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Forge__World_Bundles/VENATARII_REAVER_TITAN_MANIPLE_1.html

For those who have cash to burn... But the best part? It cost more than buying the three titan individually? How big of an eff-you is that?!

 jabbakahut wrote:
Wait, so Forge World sells a combination package that includes one Reaver and two Warhound titans! http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Forge__World_Bundles/VENATARII_REAVER_TITAN_MANIPLE_1.html

For those who have cash to burn... But the best part? It cost more than buying the three titan individually? How big of an eff-you is that?!

Did you include the price of the weapon arms?

I looked at one of the FW three knight Titan deals and it was like 60 pounds cheaper than buying three individually. So it seems FW doesn't think that discounts devalue the product, but the inferior regular GW kits are somehow devalued by discounts...

The Stormclaw set is quite good value. Went halfs on it with a friend, effectively got 2 squads that would normally amount to €67 plus a limited edition HQ, all for €50. Needless to say I was happy with that.
the Dark Vengeance set is excellent value too. I bought this to trade it on, and was impressed with the quantity and quality of the figures. The downside is the minis are fixed pose 3 to 6 parts, so not very customisation / conversion friendly.

But for the main part you're correct. "Buy this entire IG tank battalion -and we'll give you one free tank commander and a set of decals" Even if I was inclined to buy such a vast quantity of models, The incentive they're giving me to buy such a bundle is pathetic.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 jabbakahut wrote:
Wait, so Forge World sells a combination package that includes one Reaver and two Warhound titans! http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Forge__World_Bundles/VENATARII_REAVER_TITAN_MANIPLE_1.html

For those who have cash to burn... But the best part? It cost more than buying the three titan individually? How big of an eff-you is that?!

Did you include the price of the weapon arms?

Yes. It's a few pounds cheaper to buy them individually. Go check yourself. I ran it twice and got the same results.

 jabbakahut wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 jabbakahut wrote:
Wait, so Forge World sells a combination package that includes one Reaver and two Warhound titans! http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Forge__World_Bundles/VENATARII_REAVER_TITAN_MANIPLE_1.html

For those who have cash to burn... But the best part? It cost more than buying the three titan individually? How big of an eff-you is that?!

Did you include the price of the weapon arms?

Yes. It's a few pounds cheaper to buy them individually. Go check yourself. I ran it twice and got the same results.

I think you did it wrong.



MARS PATTERN REAVER TITAN (BODY ONLY) (IA-TTN-E-032)
£438.00


REAVER TITAN APOCALYPSE MISSILE LAUNCHER (CARAPACE ONLY) (IA-TTN-E-033)
£55.50


REAVER TITAN LASER BLASTER (ARM ONLY) (IA-TTN-E-035)
£55.50


REAVER TITAN GATLING BLASTER (ARM ONLY) (IA-TTN-E-034)
£55.50


MARS PATTERN WARHOUND TITAN BODY (IA-TTN-E-038)
£526.00


MARS PATTERN PLASMA BLASTGUN (RIGHT ARM) (IA-TTN-E-040)
£39.00


MARS PATTERN VULCAN MEGA BOLTER (LEFT ARM) (IA-TTN-E-039)
£39.00


MARS PATTERN TURBO LASER (IA-TTN-E-051)
£39.00


MARS PATTERN INFERNO CANNON (IA-TTN-E-050)
£39.00



Totals

Subtotal : £1286.50

Estimated delivery : £0.00

Total : £1286.50


You probably forgot a Warhound body. This math says it's a savings of 160 of those squiggly British moneys.

Yeah, as with many other things, FW do bundles in what might be considered the conventional sense, much like doing previews and many other things that GW proper don't, and despite charging a premium that would make Bernie Madoff blush, have substantially fewer issues with their public relations than GW pretty much anywhere you go.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

I think you did it wrong.

You are correct sir, I didn't add it wrong though. I just looked at it wrong. I saw 1286 and somehow thought it was 1126, which is 2 less than the package of 1128. I didn't write the numbers down, I tried doing it in my head, and when I did it twice and thought the result was the same...

So hey, it's about 150 off, which is about 13% discount.

Not bad, and I don't know FW overhead, I would think 10% is a standard starting discount, and 20% is a pretty nice discount, so 13 is in there somewhere. But can't I get 20% off the top of GW stuff if I buy from an independent online store? If that's the case I would hope for 30% off if I'm dropping near a grand in one purchase.

Nope, the only place to buy FW is from FW, so they don't have the same commercial pressures as standard GW, ergo it genuinely is good for them to offer a discount, because their situation is somewhat more of a bubble than mainstream GW.

 jabbakahut wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

I think you did it wrong.

You are correct sir, I didn't add it wrong though. I just looked at it wrong. I saw 1286 and somehow thought it was 1126, which is 2 less than the package of 1128. I didn't write the numbers down, I tried doing it in my head, and when I did it twice and thought the result was the same...

So hey, it's about 150 off, which is about 13% discount.

Not bad, and I don't know FW overhead, I would think 10% is a standard starting discount, and 20% is a pretty nice discount, so 13 is in there somewhere. But can't I get 20% off the top of GW stuff if I buy from an independent online store? If that's the case I would hope for 30% off if I'm dropping near a grand in one purchase.

I've never even contemplated such a large purchase, but I do wonder what progress you could make calling them up and pitching a deeper discount.

That was my biggest laugh about the "Entire Ultramarines Chapter!" bundle. If you were really predisposed and adequately funded to drop over ten thousand dollars on a single purchase, one would imagine you'd hold a certain amount of bargaining power. Like buying a car with cash versus financing, etc.

GW's trash, what did you expect?

 masterdrom wrote:
GW's trash, what did you expect?

Yeah, really objective and useful.

 masterdrom wrote:
GW's trash, what did you expect?

See, it's posts like this which is the reason why people dismiss valid criticism as just ranting/whining. Please try to refrain from doing this in the future, it makes everybody look bad.

Oh, wow. You spend in the range of 1300 GBP and they offer you like 10%. Ain't that incredible... I don't think that forgeworld understands the concept of buying in bulk any better than GW.

As for the required weapons for squads - Forgeworld (and some 3rd party suppliers) offer weapon sprues. The prices are horrendous if you ask me, but hey, it's that or buying other boxes.

Funny though, how even chinese recasters are willing to offer you another 10-15 % off, while GW won't shed a dime on a 300-500€ package.