So I often see this discussion and it generally boils down to "If the store goes out of business you'll have no place to play" and while I agree in part, at some point IMHO it has to come down to what you're spending versus saving a lot by ordering online, even without getting into possible logisctics like the store having trouble getting orders from distributors.
So is there really any other argument that can be put forth besides buying from a place you want to stay open? For instance, I just recently looked at some Warmachine things I wanted to order. Now, my store gives a 10% discount, but they also have to charge 7% sales tax, so in reality I'm only getting 3% off of retail. I calculated what I wanted to buy and it basically came out to $284.91 retail. Factoring in my local store's discount but paying sales tax, it came to $274.37, or a savings of around $10. Compare that with ordering from a well-known online store that offers a 30% discount and free 2-day shipping, it comes to $199.44, or a savings of almost $75 more than buying locally; for that price I could buy another unit plus additional things!
Those savings, to me, far outweigh paying $75 more just to buy them from a local shop. If the savings was closer together it might be a harder choice, but really there's no comparison there that I can tell. Loyalty to a store is one thing, but when you're saving almost $100 off a $300 order?
I've started just ordering the cheap things locally, because the savings are minuscule, but ordering anything like $50 or more online where I get a hefty discount as well as free shipping. I just can't justify saving less than $11 versus saving over $85 on the same order.
So if you buy online, and you game primarily 'in store', then how do you expect the store to stay open and provide you space to play? By selling you marked-up retail snickers bars? Your 17 cents 3 times a month really goes a long way to justifying keeping a large part of the store space open.
If you don't play at a store and don't need it for your gaming space, then you have no reason to make sure they exist via contributing your business.
It is the difference between people who go out to eat and pay a higher price and 20% tip vs those who buy food and take it home to cook themselves... If you want a restaurant to serve your needs, then you have to go there and pay the premium... otherwise be happy clipping coupons and eating at home.
I try to buy locally, but will order if they don't stock something I like. I don't really play in shops, but I like having them nearby to visit. I also don't like online ordering because it is inconvenient for me to have things delivered where I live.
nkelsch wrote: So if you buy online, and you game primarily 'in store', then how do you expect the store to stay open and provide you space to play? By selling you marked-up retail snickers bars? Your 17 cents 3 times a month really goes a long way to justifying keeping a large part of the store space open.
If you don't play at a store and don't need it for your gaming space, then you have no reason to make sure they exist via contributing your business.
It is the difference between people who go out to eat and pay a higher price and 20% tip vs those who buy food and take it home to cook themselves... If you want a restaurant to serve your needs, then you have to go there and pay the premium... otherwise be happy clipping coupons and eating at home.
This is valid but IMHO only to a point. I mean there's a huge difference in saving $75, if the savings was like $20 or even $30 it'd be like okay, it's a small price to pay for supporting the local shop. But at $75 it becomes a lot more of a "Why the hell am I paying $75 more for worse service" kind of thing. At least to me. That's a lot of money in the context of the game.
I care that the stores stay in business but at the end of the day I care about my money more. When I spend a day gaming at the store I'll usually buy a kit. I consider it like this.
I probably could have gotten it 25% less but I get to take it home and build it right away plus I got to play all day in someones shop. It's worth the 25% and it helps the store out a little bit.
However - 90% of the stuff I get is going to be from ebay or some other source.
I think it's easy to enough to make weekly impulse purchases at a store (paint, a blister or two, so on) and then make your big online savings when starting a new army, or game, or whatever. That way, even if you are paying more for your small purchases, in the grand scheme of things there won't be too much of a difference.
There's no law that says you have to decide on one method of purchasing for all your hobby spending ever.
Having said that, I don't have an LGS so buy it all online.
I like my FLGS and the people there, so buying stuff there is a small price to pay. I typically buy GW stuff online, but things I don't mind paying retail for, like X-wing, terrain, brushes, paint and 'I want it now' purchases make up the bulk of my game store purchases.
Help the local store where you can and impulse buy there.
Big items like an Imperial Knight you MUST shop around.
They just cost too much to throw your money away.
It really depends on your conscience, they are a business not a charity or your friends so some thought must be given if their level of service deserves support.
First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
Ahem....anyway there is also the concept of convenience and utility to add in.
Shops good it you want stuff.....NOW!
They are also vital if you are in need of a zone of manly mandollies in a day that might otherwise be taken up with being dragged around the shops lying about how good the Mrs looks in something stupid.
Also you don't have to deal with the random professionalism of delivery couriers, who might deliver the parcel on time to someone else, deliver late but pretend you weren't in before (you were but they said you weren't!), put your parcel through a grater or possibly maybe deliver it to you assuming the online store has the item/the wherewithal to send it out quickly.
Finally there is the point at which 10-15% off really doesn't mean much. Its nice oh yes, but really if you like having a games shop near your where you can see like minded freaks, actually handle what you want to buy, a few quid less in your pocket is a small price to pay.
notprop wrote: First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
Ahem....anyway there is also the concept of convenience and utility to add in.
Shops good it you want stuff.....NOW!
They are also vital if you are in need of a zone of manly mandollies in a day that might otherwise be taken up with being dragged around the shops lying about how good the Mrs looks in something stupid.
Also you don't have to deal with the random professionalism of delivery couriers, who might deliver the parcel on time to someone else, deliver late but pretend you weren't in before (you were but they said you weren't!), put your parcel through a grater or possibly maybe deliver it to you assuming the online store has the item/the wherewithal to send it out quickly.
Finally there is the point at which 10-15% off really doesn't mean much. Its nice oh yes, but really if you like having a games shop near your where you can see like minded freaks, actually handle what you want to buy, a few quid less in your pocket is a small price to pay.
QFT.
My favorite is parking a big parcel in the middle of your porch in broad daylight just prior to when school lets out the kids... parcel? I did not receive no stinking parcel!!??
Meeting my "peers" in a hobby store is so soothing, I meet people with a "passion" for gaming that makes me feel sooooo normal.
Dragging the Mrs into a hobby store causes her about as much pain as 10 of hers for you... priceless.
(What is that smell?, What IS this stuff??, People leave their children unattended here???, What, that ONE card, is $40???? How much are your models again?????, Why are these guys smiling at me and winking at you??????)
notprop wrote: First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
There are a lot of reasons... We have different tax rates per types of products, different items can have different tax rates depending on who sells them, Different states, cities and so on have different tax rates but prices may cross multiple states or cities with individual tax rates, many shoppers may show tax-exempt ID and get the products without tax at the register.
Here is an example: My parents live in a beach community. They have Best buy. Best Buy has multiple stores. They have an 'east coast' advertisement and commercial which says a DVD is 19.99$
Their state has 6% sales tax, The City has 10% sales tax. Other states have other various taxes. Depending where you purchase the item, your tax is different. So it is impossible to have a standard 'price' to advertise when it would either need to be various price to include the appropriate tax.
notprop wrote: First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
There are a lot of reasons... We have different tax rates per types of products, different items can have different tax rates depending on who sells them, Different states, cities and so on have different tax rates but prices may cross multiple states or cities with individual tax rates, many shoppers may show tax-exempt ID and get the products without tax at the register.
Here is an example: My parents live in a beach community. They have Best buy. Best Buy has multiple stores. They have an 'east coast' advertisement and commercial which says a DVD is 19.99$
Their state has 6% sales tax, The City has 10% sales tax. Other states have other various taxes. Depending where you purchase the item, your tax is different. So it is impossible to have a standard 'price' to advertise when it would either need to be various price to include the appropriate tax.
Do not bore me with "facts" and "logic", its stupid and annoying.
Just stop it.
Here's a "fact". You know Bin Laden was a cool guy once but he snapped when he bought a $5 pack of smokes and it cost $5.37. Poor feller only had $5 tucked in his Pyjamas. Talk about embarrassing, you can see why he flipped. Shame he held a grudge like that but the point stands.......
notprop wrote: First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
There are a lot of reasons... We have different tax rates per types of products, different items can have different tax rates depending on who sells them, Different states, cities and so on have different tax rates but prices may cross multiple states or cities with individual tax rates, many shoppers may show tax-exempt ID and get the products without tax at the register.
Here is an example: My parents live in a beach community. They have Best buy. Best Buy has multiple stores. They have an 'east coast' advertisement and commercial which says a DVD is 19.99$
Their state has 6% sales tax, The City has 10% sales tax. Other states have other various taxes. Depending where you purchase the item, your tax is different. So it is impossible to have a standard 'price' to advertise when it would either need to be various price to include the appropriate tax.
Do not bore me with "facts" and "logic", its stupid and annoying.
Just stop it.
Here's a "fact". You know Bin Laden was a cool guy once but he snapped when he bought a $5 pack of smokes and it cost $5.37. Poor feller only had $5 tucked in his Pyjamas. Talk about embarrassing, you can see why he flipped. Shame he held a grudge like that but the point stands.......
The real reason is you are likely to buy less if the tax is included on the labeled price. The price looks lower so you think it cost less subconsciously. How would they be able to play their 1.99 and 5.99 games if they had to include tax in the price shown?
I recently came to the conclusion that my passion for miniatures is less about gaming and more about having a hobby. I'm definitely not the type just trying to get a game from anybody and everybody. So the LGS has little appeal for me as a social space. I therefore look at a LGS like any other store: it's a matter of inventory and price. When it comes to inventory, LGS rarely have anything I am looking for as someone who does not play 40k, WM/H, or CCGs. When it comes to price, we need to face facts: retail pricing is premium pricing -- there better be something on the consumer-side to justify marking up the product. The usual justification for me is instant gratification. For others, it might be a warm feeling toward the business.
I buy online for the 25-30% off. If the FLGS I go to shuts down, I guess I'll go to one of the other FLGS. There's 8 within 20 miles of me that carry 40k/WMH and always have people playing there. When 6 go out of business because of jerks like me, I'll start buying stuff locally to make sure the last 2 stay open. Some of them give 10% off, but our tax here is almost 10% (thanks to everyone in this state living off the government and selling dime bags) so 10% discount puts you back to MSRP. For stores that don't have a 10% discount, I'm paying 40% more than I would online where there's no sales tax and I get free shipping. No matter how much I love a store, I'm not paying almost double for the same product unless it's something I cant wait for (paint) or is sold out online (skaven dice).
Toofast wrote: I buy online for the 25-30% off. If the FLGS I go to shuts down, I guess I'll go to one of the other FLGS. There's 8 within 20 miles of me that carry 40k/WMH and always have people playing there. When 6 go out of business because of jerks like me, I'll start buying stuff locally to make sure the last 2 stay open. Some of them give 10% off, but our tax here is almost 10% (thanks to everyone in this state living off the government and selling dime bags) so 10% discount puts you back to MSRP. For stores that don't have a 10% discount, I'm paying 40% more than I would online where there's no sales tax and I get free shipping. No matter how much I love a store, I'm not paying almost double for the same product unless it's something I cant wait for (paint) or is sold out online (skaven dice).
That's exactly my point. With 7% sales tax, a 10% discount is a joke and barely anything. For little things here and there sure, but for major purchases? Why would I spend more money when I can spend less and use what I saved to get something additional?
My flgs saved me. I was wreckin' myself with the booze, the women, the securities, snorting resin just to make my eyes water. Then I walked into the hobby shop and learned that I could be free--that I didn't need chemicals or drama or chlamydia to spend hundreds of dollars on my own shame. Now I'm cleanish and sober and a neurotic hoarder who makes others deeply uncomfortable. At my flgs, I belong
Really, though, I just like to get away and make some impulse purchases. Whenever they offer to order something in, I just look at them, they look at me, and we both laugh.
Dragging the Mrs into a hobby store causes her about as much pain as 10 of hers for you... priceless.
(What is that smell?, What IS this stuff??, People leave their children unattended here???, What, that ONE card, is $40???? How much are your models again?????, Why are these guys smiling at me and winking at you??????)
This right here is worth 25%. There are only two places on this Earth where I am guaranteed some time to myself: 1) The bathroom; 2) The hobby shop. I'm afraid if I ever use the bathroom at the hobby shop, I might drop out of this reality altogether into some sort of hyperbolic time chamber.
Also, there's a pedicure shop next door, which is a ploy worthy of Lex Luthor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toofast wrote: For stores that don't have a 10% discount, I'm paying 40% more than I would online
Not even close. You seem to be assuming 30% discount, so let's roll with that. If you compare a purchase with MSRP at $100, online you would spend $70 and in the store you would spend $110, a difference of $40. $40 is 57% of $70. So, you would be spending 57% more than you have to, which is a pretty big argument against buying in your local store.
Side thought: It's worth asking if they'll meet you in the middle on large orders. Maybe the shop always runs 10% off, but if you're going to place a $300 order, let them know your situation and see if they'll meet you at 15 or 20% off. Most stores will take a lesser sale over no sale at all. Worst case scenario they say no.
Just don't abuse it and try to do it all the time - just bring it up when you're placing big orders at once, not for every pot of paint.
Toofast wrote: I buy online for the 25-30% off. If the FLGS I go to shuts down, I guess I'll go to one of the other FLGS. There's 8 within 20 miles of me that carry 40k/WMH and always have people playing there. When 6 go out of business because of jerks like me, I'll start buying stuff locally to make sure the last 2 stay open. Some of them give 10% off, but our tax here is almost 10% (thanks to everyone in this state living off the government and selling dime bags) so 10% discount puts you back to MSRP. For stores that don't have a 10% discount, I'm paying 40% more than I would online where there's no sales tax and I get free shipping. No matter how much I love a store, I'm not paying almost double for the same product unless it's something I cant wait for (paint) or is sold out online (skaven dice).
The irony of you calling people in your state mooches and 'living off the government' when you are basically doing the exact same thing with gaming and FLGS where you are entitled to have your gaming subsidized while everyone else foots the bill by paying where they play.
Maybe stores will get smart and just simply ban you.
First of all, the stores also sell MtG, Yu gi oh, board games, etc. They aren't going to live or die on 40k/WMH sales. Second, how am I doing the same thing? If they wanted to charge me for table space I would happily pay for it. I could rent a table all day every day and still save money. It's their choice to determine how much they want to charge for their products/services and it's my choice as to where I spend my money. I'm not paying $110 for a $70 item. I'm not going to throw $40-80 a week out the window for no reason. If the stores want my money they will either change their prices or charge for tables. They're free to ban me if they wish and I'm free to shop elsewhere.
A game store is a business, not a charity. If they want my business, they need to offer me something to earn it. In this day and age they're competing with 30% and basically unlimited stock and guaranteed stock. Obviously they can't compete with that, but there has to be something more than "I have game tables" IMHO. Years ago this wasn't the case, but this is the 21st century. Just offering space doesn't cut it anymore.
The ultimate question is, do you have an alternate place to play at if the game store goes under because you're buying stuff online?
If the game store goes under and there's no alternate place to play, how much good does saving that money do you? You wind up wasting ALL the money you spent on the game because it's now just a bunch of paperweights.
Riquende wrote: I think it's easy to enough to make weekly impulse purchases at a store (paint, a blister or two, so on) and then make your big online savings when starting a new army, or game, or whatever. That way, even if you are paying more for your small purchases, in the grand scheme of things there won't be too much of a difference.
There's no law that says you have to decide on one method of purchasing for all your hobby spending ever.
Having said that, I don't have an LGS so buy it all online.
I'm in the same boat. Did have two stores within a 30-40 minute drive, now one is gone and the other has been neutered to the point that it's not worth the visit.
Don't think the situation is good in the UK for FLGS, as far as I know we have lost in just the past few years (maybe more?)
- Cut & Thrust
- Total Wargamer
- Maelstrom Games
Essentially, the goverment has done sweet feth-all to try and help retailers compete with online business, and it seems (looking at the state of the high street in most towns) local councils would rather have a row of closed down stores and charity shops than reduce rates or introduce schemes to pull punters into town such as free parking for shoppers. Wargaming stores seem to have been a casualty along with many others.
Toofast wrote: . They're free to ban me if they wish and I'm free to shop elsewhere. I still don't see how me spending money I worked for at the places with the best prices can be equated to people who sit on the couch all day, eat everything in baby mommas fridge and sell dime bags on the corner to go buy king cobra and black n milds.
But... you are not an actual customer... So taking your money 'elsewhere' is an empty threat because you are ALREADY shopping elsewhere. And you would pay 5$ for table usage but not 5$ on product markup? I declare shenanigans on your attitude that you actually would be ok with a pay to play model.
You are basically using "services" without contributing to them and acting like you are entitled to those services that are supported by other people. Exactly the attitude of your fictional (and somewhat bigoted) caricature of the people you claim to support with your taxes.
Essentially the other people who 'pay where they pay' are taxpayers and you are the welfare queen getting a free place to game without contributing to society or paying taxes.
For me, it depends on my mood. If it is a huge order and I'm able to buy it online for a huge discount I will. Likewise, if I dont feel like waiting and can buy it local for a smaller discount, I'll do it that way as well. If it just a small item and I'm buy it full price local, it might be cheaper and easier than buying online with the shipping cost added in....So many variables.
In general. I've found that local stores that offer a discount stay in business longer and actually make MORE money than one that sells at full price because they sell more volume. If more followed that example, we wouldnt even be having this discussion. lol
I support my FLGS whenever and however I can, even if that means spending a little extra money.
Do I sometimes buy stuff online? I sure do because it's hard not to, especially with Amazon Prime or if I need something he doesn't stock. He has a large, clean, well run, and well stocked store; easily one of the nicest shops I've been to, if not the nicest. He gets to know his customers, he's involved in the local gaming groups, and it's always free to play in his store. Hell, he didn't even charge for the X-wing store championship last weekend, and we had 29 people playing! That means he ate the cost of the tournament kit and chose not to recoup that money and then some (I've read elsewhere that stores have been charging up to $20 to play in the championships). The other day he was handing out 10% off coupons to our X-wing group just because they came in to play some casual games.
The main reason I support him is because those are my principles: as a local small business owner, he's part of the same community I am and I want him to be successful. He takes care of the gamers and hobbyists in the area and I'm compelled to return the favor.
I'd have to say it really depends on what I'm buying. There are some things I need to buy, but I can't seem to find online. So I go to my local store to have them order it for me, and eat the price difference. They do offer a 20% discount on models, so it's helpful. But with 8% tax, it sort of helps.
It's boiled down to saving money. I hate to cut from the stores profits, but I don't make a boatload of money, so I need to save where I can. Granted, I buy mostly anything EXCEPT models from them. I play a lot of the revamped Dragon Ball Z card game, so I buy all my packs from them. I also buy various board games and the like. But when it comes to plastic crack, Ebay is really the only place I'll buy.
There aren't many places in my area to play, and of them, the more well stocked one only gives a 5% discount on GW items, which gets above RSVP with tax. They even charge $4 per Vallejo paint dropper.
They make most of their money on MTG, so much of their miniature stock doesn't move.
I have no desire to buy through them if I can get it cheaper from GW direct
I always support my local store, but I don't do big purchases and never really have. my purchases are generally in the $50-$100au range, and the two stores I go to already do 10%-15% off. When you consider I'm also not paying shipping, I generally come out even.
But then, I'm also not buying from the usual suspects for gouging customers - the stuff I buy is generally pretty spot on for exchange rate prices. If I was buying GW stuff I'd probably go to mostly online.
Every time we have this discussion, there is a disconnect between the people who use the store to game and those that don't. I live in an area where the game stores are spread out and the people I play with are generally an hour's drive away. I buy from the FLGS, because if I want to have a place to play with buddies that's relatively convenient for both of us, then I need to put some money in the owner's pocket. If I had no use for open gaming tables, then I could shop online conscience-free.
If you use the store's tables, then shop there more often than not. If you don't, shop anywhere you like. Simple.
Also, America doesn't have sales tax baked-in to the price like the UK/Eurozone because our sales tax is decided upon by the local or state government. But don't worry, our federal government LOVES the idea of VAT, so I would imagine they'll figure out away to slip it by us in some new law in the near future...
the_Armyman wrote: Every time we have this discussion, there is a disconnect between the people who use the store to game and those that don't. I live in an area where the game stores are spread out and the people I play with are generally an hour's drive away. I buy from the FLGS, because if I want to have a place to play with buddies that's relatively convenient for both of us, then I need to put some money in the owner's pocket. If I had no use for open gaming tables, then I could shop online conscience-free.
If you use the store's tables, then shop there more often than not. If you don't, shop anywhere you like. Simple.
Also, America doesn't have sales tax baked-in to the price like the UK/Eurozone because our sales tax is decided upon by the local or state government. But don't worry, our federal government LOVES the idea of VAT, so I would imagine they'll figure out away to slip it by us in some new law in the near future...
The thing is, your mileage varies in this argument. There is no one correct answer. Telling people how they should be spending their money is no one's right. My local store makes their money off trading card games. Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, specifically. The war games are more of a niche that the majority of their customer base doesn't partake in, though the store does supply the paints and has SOME kits in store, though will place the orders in for stuff at the 20% discount. I'll buy SOME models from the store, but you have to understand, it isn't that we don't WANT to buy from stores. It's that most of us CAN'T afford to. Even at the discounts given.
GW is to blame for their absurd prices. It's unreasonable to buy market retail, even with a small cut by the store. I can buy used or broken models(and fix them) for under 50% of what it would cost new if I dig hard enough (And I DO, because my money is important). I like to support my store, but I do it in other ways. I partake in their events, i buy my other hobbies from them because they are reasonably priced, etc. If people have only GW stores, I feel for you. I'm lucky I don't have em. I'll support the local guys but I'll do it without giving GW much of my money due to their overall poor business practices.
My closest store doesn't charge for table time. I get to enjoy their store, their tables, and their space for free.They don't offer any discount, furthermore they are not open to any discount even on large orders. The store is "okay", the owner is a good guy, but 40k is not a priority as I know it doesn't generate profit for him. I buy my white dwarfs from him, some glue and random bits and kits.
I do most of my large purchases that are in excess of $200 online. Now to sound like a hypocrite:
Not buying from your local store actually is akin to outsourcing/firing of senior workers we are seeing in some job sectors. Why the heck would I pay a local Software Engineer when I can outsource it and save 40% easily, or better yet hire a fresh faced college grad 20% less.
Would you still feel the same if someone said "hey we are letting you go, someone will do your job for 20% less", and at the end of the day its just business.
A lot of people especially in the states have seen this over the past few years. Just my two cents and lets not forget this is a hobby not a life necessity. Oh and few in this thread reminded me of this
the_Armyman wrote: Every time we have this discussion, there is a disconnect between the people who use the store to game and those that don't. I live in an area where the game stores are spread out and the people I play with are generally an hour's drive away. I buy from the FLGS, because if I want to have a place to play with buddies that's relatively convenient for both of us, then I need to put some money in the owner's pocket. If I had no use for open gaming tables, then I could shop online conscience-free.
If you use the store's tables, then shop there more often than not. If you don't, shop anywhere you like. Simple.
Also, America doesn't have sales tax baked-in to the price like the UK/Eurozone because our sales tax is decided upon by the local or state government. But don't worry, our federal government LOVES the idea of VAT, so I would imagine they'll figure out away to slip it by us in some new law in the near future...
The thing is, your mileage varies in this argument. There is no one correct answer. Telling people how they should be spending their money is no one's right. My local store makes their money off trading card games. Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, specifically. The war games are more of a niche that the majority of their customer base doesn't partake in, though the store does supply the paints and has SOME kits in store, though will place the orders in for stuff at the 20% discount. I'll buy SOME models from the store, but you have to understand, it isn't that we don't WANT to buy from stores. It's that most of us CAN'T afford to. Even at the discounts given.
You're correct, it's not my right to tell you how to spend your money. Not sure why that needed to be said, but there it is. As for card games, I'm sure quite a lot of gaming stores are riding that wave right now. But I bet if you asked the owner if he wouldn't mind making money off his other products, he'd be down for that, too!
GW is to blame for their absurd prices. It's unreasonable to buy market retail, even with a small cut by the store. I can buy used or broken models(and fix them) for under 50% of what it would cost new if I dig hard enough (And I DO, because my money is important). I like to support my store, but I do it in other ways. I partake in their events, i buy my other hobbies from them because they are reasonably priced, etc. If people have only GW stores, I feel for you. I'm lucky I don't have em. I'll support the local guys but I'll do it without giving GW much of my money due to their overall poor business practices.
Firstly, if you support you store in other purchases, great. As long as you feel that these ancillary purchases are putting money in a local guy's pocket, then that's the right thing to be doing. However, when you buy a GW product from ANYWHERE, GW makes its money whether you save a percentage or not. You're not "sticking it to them" by purchasing with a discount. If you're truly angry at GW, then stop buying their products. You're not an addict.
Also not that the tables seem to see more action from the card gamers than they do the wargamers.
However, even with a 15-20% discount, the sapce for tables is more than paid for through volume of sales. The entire pay full price plus tax for everything to support your store is faulty. A store that has a discount sells a greater volume than the store that sells at full price so the overall end profit is higher for them. The key is finding the percentage that maximises this end profit maximum. It is not just the "principles" of the consumers that needs to be looked at but also the "principles" of the sellers as well. Those who offer discounts or other perks have more of us players buy from them so they come out further ahead by offering them.
the_Armyman wrote: Every time we have this discussion, there is a disconnect between the people who use the store to game and those that don't. I live in an area where the game stores are spread out and the people I play with are generally an hour's drive away. I buy from the FLGS, because if I want to have a place to play with buddies that's relatively convenient for both of us, then I need to put some money in the owner's pocket. If I had no use for open gaming tables, then I could shop online conscience-free.
If you use the store's tables, then shop there more often than not. If you don't, shop anywhere you like. Simple.
Also, America doesn't have sales tax baked-in to the price like the UK/Eurozone because our sales tax is decided upon by the local or state government. But don't worry, our federal government LOVES the idea of VAT, so I would imagine they'll figure out away to slip it by us in some new law in the near future...
The thing is, your mileage varies in this argument. There is no one correct answer. Telling people how they should be spending their money is no one's right. My local store makes their money off trading card games. Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh, specifically. The war games are more of a niche that the majority of their customer base doesn't partake in, though the store does supply the paints and has SOME kits in store, though will place the orders in for stuff at the 20% discount. I'll buy SOME models from the store, but you have to understand, it isn't that we don't WANT to buy from stores. It's that most of us CAN'T afford to. Even at the discounts given.
You're correct, it's not my right to tell you how to spend your money. Not sure why that needed to be said, but there it is. As for card games, I'm sure quite a lot of gaming stores are riding that wave right now. But I bet if you asked the owner if he wouldn't mind making money off his other products, he'd be down for that, too!
GW is to blame for their absurd prices. It's unreasonable to buy market retail, even with a small cut by the store. I can buy used or broken models(and fix them) for under 50% of what it would cost new if I dig hard enough (And I DO, because my money is important). I like to support my store, but I do it in other ways. I partake in their events, i buy my other hobbies from them because they are reasonably priced, etc. If people have only GW stores, I feel for you. I'm lucky I don't have em. I'll support the local guys but I'll do it without giving GW much of my money due to their overall poor business practices.
Firstly, if you support you store in other purchases, great. As long as you feel that these ancillary purchases are putting money in a local guy's pocket, then that's the right thing to be doing. However, when you buy a GW product from ANYWHERE, GW makes its money whether you save a percentage or not. You're not "sticking it to them" by purchasing with a discount. If you're truly angry at GW, then stop buying their products. You're not an addict.
No, I'm sticking it to them by buying from people who quite the game or are looking to change factions. GW gets not a penny from my purchases on Ebay. (Unless in a roundabout way they do because the guy I bought from spends that money on GW, but that's besides the point. They LOSE revenue because I wont pay THEM for my models)
WayneTheGame wrote: A game store is a business, not a charity. If they want my business, they need to offer me something to earn it. In this day and age they're competing with 30% and basically unlimited stock and guaranteed stock. Obviously they can't compete with that, but there has to be something more than "I have game tables" IMHO. Years ago this wasn't the case, but this is the 21st century. Just offering space doesn't cut it anymore.
If they are a business, and not a charity, then why are they offering you game tables for free?
I think this is part of a social contract, and if you don't participate, then you are being selfish. This is being a free rider on the people who DO support the store.
They offer you game tables in order to get your business. If you don't like that arrangement, stop playing there.
The wait staff at your restaurant isn't a charity either. They aren't bringing you food and drink because they like you. While you aren't legally required to tip them, you should. If you think tipping is moronic and '20th century', stop eating at restaurants. Don't screw over the waitstaff because you disagree with the restaurant business model.
Similarly, the game store doesn't charge for tables. It relies on the good faith of people playing there to support it with purchases. If you disagree with that business model, stop playing at the tables. Don't screw over the arrangement that works for the rest of us because you don't agree with it. If enough people think that 'what I am legally obliged to do' is all the game stores can expect, you can expect free gaming tables to disappear.
I'm not saying that the guy who could save $75 should eat it and shop locally. I don't make ALL my purchases at my LGS, but I do make regular purchases there, and I do make significant purchases there (I'm not just buying a candy bar). The game store isn't giving me my own personal table, but I'm contributing to repaying them for the tables they provide for everyone.
It just reminds me of the guy who shows up to the party with nothing, and eats the food and drinks that everyone else brought.
This debate usually gets heated. Here's my take. tl:dr - do you go there a lot ? Do you like it being there? You should probably buy there, and no not just paint and a No Quarter or White Dwarf.
If you don't go there a lot (this would be roughly defined as, give or take, less than 1/4 of your games are played on the premises), or have no LGS. Buy online to your hearts content.
If you buy online and go to the store to play most of your games there (over half), despite whatever you tell yourself, you're a mooch. You do not add to the ambiance. You do not add to the "draw" because there's people in there. You're mooching heat, you're mooching electricity. Plain and simple. You are using their tables and space as your own hangout, and not contributing to money generating services the store has (product on the shelf or via special order) as the main method by which it provides those tables. What's worse, the people that work and go to the store know it. Every week when you show up with your shiny new stuff you didn't buy there, they know. You're not nearly as slick as you think you are. Buying a soda and a 3 buck pot of paint and maybe your NQ or WD in there is not support. It's staving off self imposed dousche chills by the slimmest margin.
Rest of this post will be behind spoiler tag as it's long.
I used to have no LGS for a long time, and we played at my house 100% of the time. During this time i bought exclusively online. When i discovered the LGS i go to now, at first i went there once in a great while to pick something up, but not anything remotely approaching regularity. I bought mostly still online, and felt no remorse, as i was visiting the store probably with a duration of time between visits measured in months.
In the winter months i do probably 90% of my minis gaming at the local store. This is because my gaming space is currently unheated basement, and as it's a walkout, it gets chilly in there where I live (like, high forties, which is chilly enough to not be fun to play in! Unfortunately finishing my Nerd Lair (NOT a man cave!) is probably about 2 years away, as if i'm going to do it, dammit imma do it right).
Come spring its probably a 50/50 split. Come summer, its my house all the time, as that unheated basement is nice and cool, and we grill up steaks, burgers, dogs, and brats, and drink beer, two things i can't do at my LGS. Well, i mean, i could grill steaks there, but i'm not buying for everyone. It's Ribeye or Filet or go home. Ditto on beer ; Beer snob and proud.
Fall is back to 50/50.
So it's roughly half the time give or take. That's a big chunk of my gaming time spend at the local shop!
Then there's these factors:
1) My LGS offers a 10% discount after buying 100 bucks culmulative worth of stuff, with no upper cap on the 10% discount purchase. Bring in your receipts, and voila, 10% off. They also have some KICKASS sales every now and then. As in i usually save up a few hundred bucks JUST to spend on their drool worthy black friday sales (last score i got was 60% off an acquila strongpoint).
2) They cater to me. Whenever i come in, there's a table for me and my friend ; even on the mornings where both Pokemon and a Warmachine / Hordes tourney is on. I have literally never walked in and NOT had a place to play, even if that means setting up another table for me, which is really nice.
3) They cater to me. When i order something from them, they order it right away, and they proactively tell me when it's in. THe one time there's been an issue, they took the ball and ran with it, and kept me up to speed without ever having to request an update.
4) They cater to me. When i bring my kid in, if someone starts firing off F bombs, they squash that gak. My boy's 7 and he comes with me from 12-6 to play pokemon, and then we promptly leave. Mostly for family dinner, but also as a nod to the whole "the older guys need time to be not on guard too). I have a mouth like a sailor, but not around my kid. I know my kid is not other people's responsibility, but if we can just not fire off F-bombs like an MG42, that's be great. Also, for those that say "your kids virgin ears are not my problem". Truth. I will not deny that. However my kids virgin ears are the stores problem if i stop coming in because people can't keep from teaching my kid new epithets. Because if i don't come in with him, i don't show up as much, and if i don't show up as much, i'm not buying as much.
And i buy a lot. So yes it's not an individuals problem. The store might think differently.
5) They cater to me. It's in a nice clean place, well lit and ventilated, bathroom is never a disaster, and right next door is a pizza shop with the tastiest goddamn chicken fingers in BBQ-Tobasco-Vinegar-Chipotle sauce. Seriously, i'm salivating right now thinking about it.
6) They cater to me. I gak you not, every damn time i walk in, they remember my name (priceless!), and usually come over and ask me something about my army, even though the Fantasy scene at my shop is quite small. I really, really appreciate that. They also know me and my habits, and the managers always chat me up about Fantasy, again, despite there being not much of a a scene.
Notice a theme here ? I don't own it, but it's "my" LGS. I play there a lot. So for me, personally, I buy at least 90+ % of stuff from there, and the only stuff i don't buy from them are OOP stuff i can't get anymore that i trade for on bartertown, or stuff they can't get through their distribution chain (which i also then usually trade for on bartertown).
So yeah, i buy most of my stuff there because i want it to be there next week when i go there. And the week after that. And after that... and the only way i can do that is to make sure that i'm spending what i spend on minis in their shop to help their cashflow, so the place i love to go to to play WHFB, 40k, X-wing, the occasional game of magic, pokemon for my son, and probably in the not too distant future, Warmachine again, is still there the next time I go.
You need to remember that the game tables are not being offered "for free". Stores with game tables also sell snacks or at least drinks which is added income. The space required to house the tables are paid for by the seating for events such as tournaments and so forth. It is also paid for by the profits from the sale of full priced items. Now, if the items were sold at a discount or there were other perks the stores would have VERY little competition from the online retailers as the prices would be near the same and the customer would not have to wait. The additional revenue/profits that this would get them would be gravy.
There are 3 stores near me, one with retail, the other is the infamous Frontline gaming. I buy only fRob frontline. Because if I'm going to order something, I might as well get a discount.
I only visit the others. One is the big honcho around. People come from San jose. And he is an ass. He acts that if you don't buy from him, you are preventing his kid from going to college.
hotsauceman1 wrote: There are 3 stores near me, one with retail, the other is the infamous Frontline gaming. I buy only fRob frontline. Because if I'm going to order something, I might as well get a discount.
I only visit the others. One is the big honcho around. People come from San jose. And he is an ass. He acts that if you don't buy from him, you are preventing his kid from going to college.
As long as you don't game in his store or on his tables... then you don't have a problem then and his kid can work at burger king because you don't game in his store. If you buy from an online discounter and then openly game frequently in the 'other guys' store... you are the ass... not him for calling you out on it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Oh I game there, alot. With armies purchased from his competition. I also love it when I win his tournamenuts and get free stuff from him.
Then that makes you the ass then. You are the worst type of person. He is right to call you out. He should probably ban you from his store to make room for paying customers.
Thats where the rub comes in. If the store offers you a discount, treats customers good, you WONT want to buy online because you can get the stuff at the store for the same price as online and why wait? Especially if the store is good to you. This will mean that as a side effect, the store will sell more items and have a greater profit at the end of the day.
Huh, whoda thunk it? A win/win for everyone.
The availability of tables does not even factor in. If they have tables, they would have them even if they didnt sell miniatures as they are mainly provided for card players.
You also need to remember that if they have tables, YOU are doing THEM a favor by playing there just as much as they are doing you one by having them as it gives them free advertising and gives them free demo games in order to sell more product. You arent charging them for your services of giving them free advertising and demo games are you?
The ideal is a you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours where you get the combination of both opposing views. The whole "you must pay full retail and buy everything off me or else" view and the "I'll never buy anything and instead mooch off you" views are not the way to go. It is in the grey between where both sides are happy and profitable.
Or he should offer discounts and incentives for me to buy there the discount store is a town over, he is literally down the street.
he should also stock more, if I have to order, I'm going to discount because they take just as long
If the tournaments have their own fees, then the tournament fee can be assumed to cover all of its own costs. If he is paying to play, then there should be no further obligation to buy from the store.
OTOH, if it's a store league with weekly games, and no fees, then he should be expected to buy his league army / additions from the store.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If the tournaments have their own fees, then the tournament fee can be assumed to cover all of its own costs. If he is paying to play, then there should be no further obligation to buy from the store.
OTOH, if it's a store league with weekly games, and no fees, then he should be expected to buy his league army / additions from the store.
Sound I also not use forge world because it was not bought in his store?
EVIL INC wrote:Also not that the tables seem to see more action from the card gamers than they do the wargamers.
However, even with a 15-20% discount, the sapce for tables is more than paid for through volume of sales. The entire pay full price plus tax for everything to support your store is faulty. A store that has a discount sells a greater volume than the store that sells at full price so the overall end profit is higher for them. The key is finding the percentage that maximises this end profit maximum. It is not just the "principles" of the consumers that needs to be looked at but also the "principles" of the sellers as well. Those who offer discounts or other perks have more of us players buy from them so they come out further ahead by offering them.
Ask mikhaila how he feels about discounts. I don't ask my FLGS owner for discounts, just like I don't ask for a discount from my grocery store, convenence store, or any other retail store I shop at. If your FLGS offers you a discount freely, then that's his/her business decision and hopefully they've done their due diligence on how that impacts their ability to stay in business.
Melevolence wrote:
No, I'm sticking it to them by buying from people who quite the game or are looking to change factions. GW gets not a penny from my purchases on Ebay. (Unless in a roundabout way they do because the guy I bought from spends that money on GW, but that's besides the point. They LOSE revenue because I wont pay THEM for my models)
Hey, second-hand models are cool by me. I buy a ton of them out of my FLGS' trade-in bin. But even I understand that second-hand models don't necessarily stop GW from getting your money. As you pointed out, you're just buying GW by proxy rather than just handing them the money yourself.
The point is to support your shop if you game there; however, if they don't sell it, you can't buy it. It's not your fault they don't stock what you're buying. But if they are stocking it, and you're buying one, then you should make the effort to give them your business.
Do your friends buy their stuff there ? (i swear, i'm not trying to entrap you, despite my clear position in my earlier post, this is not what i'm driving at... i am trying to understand.... i actually find it IMPOSSIBLE to go to stores owned or frequented by people i don't like).
Remember Rule #1, please, or the thread will not be able to remain open... it's possible to have a spirited debate without resorting to insults! Thanks.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Even though I can get it cheaper? With no detriment. Not even waiting? And evenot if I hate the owner?
Why play at his store if you hate him ?
hotsauceman1 wrote:My friends game there.
LOL. This is why I love the Internet. Let's simultaneously pretend like I have no other options, then vociferously debate the people who try to provide me with reasons why I have other options.
Your house? Their house? Build your own table? Buy a gaming mat? Maybe?
I'm not going to argue with anyone about where they choose to buy, but I think everyone should at least consider the following
1) Do you game at a FLGS?
2) How much is having a FLGS around worth to you?
3) Are you spending that much at your FLGS?
4) If not, Why?
For my self, My club usually meets at home and rarely games at a FLGS. I'm there about once every 2 months. If they went away it wouldn't affect my gaming much, and they don't carry much that I want to buy. Still, I like them, appreciate gaming there, and I buy and sell good amount stuff at their bi-annual auction, so I try and buy something most times I'm there.
However, I have no qualms about 95% of the rest of what I buy being online and/or used.
For those who game regularly at a FLGS, but do most of their shopping online, that's your choice, but don't whine that you have nowhere to play if they close.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yes they do. I do not. The owner is a hypocrite and insulted friends of mine. He is so far up in the clouds, he can't see the ground.
Fair enough.
I don't agree with your choice, but i don't have to, it's not mine and you probably don't care, which is cool.
I just wanted to wrap my head around why you'd go to a store owned by someone you dislike. The friends / playgroup thing I get. But egads, i would try to steer my buds to other venues.
Went to a locale for a while where i pretty much couldn't stand most of the people there (and the feeling was mutual!), but this was before i bought my house and before the new shop i go to opened up so there wasn't much choice. Only other alternative was about a 90 minute ride away at the time, or a shop about an hour away that had exactly two tables, one of which was usually used as the store owners and employees painting table.
I think the key term here is "FLGS". I support local stores as often as I can, but if a store owner is unfriendly / unreasonable / etc, it doesn't make sense to pay massively more than you could otherwise to support them. Unfortunately, our local store has fallen into the "UFLGS" category for some time, and it's surrounded by other high quality stores, to boot. They're reforming somewhat, and to recognize that gesture, I preordered all of my Star Wars Armada items through them... but for a long time it was nearly impossible to support them for the game systems we play (i.e. they refused to stock the items most of us wanted to buy, warmachine/hordes, and if you ordered something they didn't have in stock, would take weeks to get it to you).
So, all that to say, there are two sides to this coin, and they hinge on the store being a place that you want to support, and their providing the opportunity to buy things for the game systems you play. Almost all the stores I have attended have fallen into that category, and even with the one I described above, I have still done my best to support them at times... but customer relations is just that, a relationship, and the store owner should be catering to what the local playerbase wants to buy / play, who then in turn should support their store when possible.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I have tried. They are caught up in the cult that is the owner.
Are they the same friends that the owner insulted ?
And also, can you expound on Cult of Personality of the owner ? (this one i ask, because .... i find that i like store owners that are businessmen first, gamers second. My favorite LGS manager around doesn't play mini or card games, just the occasional board game or stuff like Gloom and Werewolf. At the same time, the man has an encylopedic knowledge of what his customers like, don't like, play, don't play, and most importantly... might play. The guys that run shops that spend the first 15 minutes telling me about the highly implausible game results they had with custom made house rules completely ignoring my at turns wincing and then nonplussed facial expressions... not so much).
JohnHwangDD wrote: BTW, if you don't like the owner / whatever, don't go there. I wouldn't patronize a shop that I didn't like, even if my friends liked it.
I totally disagree here - the absolute only reason I attend the store I do now, when I have other high quality stores in range, is that I like the group of gamers who go there. If it closed, they'd be forced to go to one of the other stores, and I'd be set . But for me, my group is the highest priority, so I'm going to game wherever the group does, rather than where I might personally prefer.
JohnHwangDD wrote: BTW, if you don't like the owner / whatever, don't go there. I wouldn't patronize a shop that I didn't like, even if my friends liked it.
But for me, my group is the highest priority, so I'm going to game wherever the group does, rather than where I might personally prefer.
Sorry, far be it for me to tell another man how he needs to spend his free time. If you can stomach it, rock on!
hotsauceman1 wrote: I have tried. They are caught up in the cult that is the owner.
Are they the same friends that the owner insulted ?
And also, can you expound on Cult of Personality of the owner ? (this one i ask, because .... i find that i like store owners that are businessmen first, gamers second. My favorite LGS manager around doesn't play mini or card games, just the occasional board game or stuff like Gloom and Werewolf. At the same time, the man has an encylopedic knowledge of what his customers like, don't like, play, don't play, and most importantly... might play. The guys that run shops that spend the first 15 minutes telling me about the highly implausible game results they had with custom made house rules completely ignoring my at turns wincing and then nonplussed facial expressions... not so much).
No to the first.
The reason people like and respect him is he has ran the longest running game store In quite awhile. Ten years. He is able to convince people to do so much. including a kick starter for an expansion which has been delayed by years now. I can go off on him and his store, his guilt tripping, his sabotaging get of products he doesn't like, and several things. But I'm not in the mood
EVIL INC wrote: Thats where the rub comes in. If the store offers you a discount, treats customers good, you WONT want to buy online because you can get the stuff at the store for the same price as online and why wait? Especially if the store is good to you. This will mean that as a side effect, the store will sell more items and have a greater profit at the end of the day.
Huh, whoda thunk it? A win/win for everyone.
The availability of tables does not even factor in. If they have tables, they would have them even if they didnt sell miniatures as they are mainly provided for card players.
You also need to remember that if they have tables, YOU are doing THEM a favor by playing there just as much as they are doing you one by having them as it gives them free advertising and gives them free demo games in order to sell more product. You arent charging them for your services of giving them free advertising and demo games are you?
I like how the Tick rationalizes why the dog needs him... Claiming the tables are 'there anyways' so unpaying customers have a right to them is absurd and why wargammers are losing out to card gamers and being banished to Tuesday night opposed to open gaming on weekends... because they don't pull their weight.
And you are not doing anyone a favor with your 'my existence contributes! You should pay me to game here!'
You would be better to admit you are a souless mooch and a deadbeat like hotsauce than do disingenuous back-flips of logic to justify why you are morally entitled to be a mooch.
Just a suggestion. The insulting tone of your post does you no favors just as the insulting name calling does not. Being civil and polite goes a lot further in terms of maintaining a civil and courteous conversation. But I am not a mod and think they can do their job so will not try to do it for them. Just offering that up as a tip from one friend to another. On to the topic at hand....
No one is saying that unpaying customers are the ole users of the tables. Honestly, have many decades have you been playing the game? In all of these years, have you never once (not even a single time) se people wander in just to look around and stop by your table to comment on how well your army was painted? Or asked you questions about the game or anything of that nature? This is what is generally called free advertising and while the people are looking at your stuff and asking you questions, the store owner is able to attend to other customers. Likewise, the store is more likely to make a sale off that person because it is a "player" talking the game up instead of the "store owner pushing it to make a sale".No one is saying the store should pay you for that service. Bringing it up and acting as though someone did is a strawman argument.
I only pointed out that the street goes both ways.
Tics and dogs.. You will have to explain that analogy because in this conversation, there are no animals unless you count us as human beings and the fact that the cavelry models or whatnot are animal model representations. Unless of course you are referring to the store as being a the dog and customers as being the ticks. Normally, I would assume that that is what you meant but I think you are much more intelligent than that and would never use that analogy as it would be demeaning to you. This because it would be referring to all customers as ticks or bloodsucking parasites. Do you consider yourself that when you make a purchase? Or when you go to the grocery store to buy food for your family? How about the store itself when it buys from a distributer and shops around to find which distributer offers them the greatest discount? How about your employer when they hire employees who will work for the least amount of money?
What store do you game at that you are not allowed to play on weekends? Surely that would be an anecdotal instance because in my own anecdotal examples i could give, it would be yugio on thursdays, MTG on fridays, warhammer/40k on wedsndays and weekends being whatever event happens to be held. Usully us games and paying customers deciding that based on what events we want to organize and run for the shop. Of course, this does not mean MTG players cant play on wed or thurs or wargamers cant play on thurs or fri. But all customers "carry their weight" as we all purchase from the store and contribute in non-purchase ways as well.
Of course, I'm still trying to figure out how making purchases from a store and then playing there with my "toys" afterwards helping the store make further sales is being a "souless mooch doing backflips".
I think a customer SHOULD buy what they are able to from the store they play at. Likewise, i also think that if you are running a store, you should have some sort of economic experience and training to understand the basic principles of.
1. customer service- reating people with dignity and respect
2. economs nd math understanding that by selling at a discount, you sell in greater volume (almost exponentially) so that your end profit is much greater.
Again, the end result is that both the customer and seller can work together where BOTH can maximize both their ''bang for their buck" and "end profit" respectively.
Way I see it, buying from your FLGS is like buying drinks at your local bar. Sure, I'm paying 2-3 times more for beer at the bar than I would if I sat and drank at home, but the benefit of atmosphere/shared space with friends and such (sometimes) outweighs the added cost.
hotsauceman1 wrote: But here is one thing, he used to have a loyalty program, but is now bringing it back, at 300$ buy in, with no benefits known of yet.
... has to be SOME benefit... i mean, no one in their right mind forks over 300 bucks for nothing in a game store. Whoever this guy is, he's not Jim Jones. Though, on the safe side, avoid any free proffered cool aid at his store.
Haight wrote: I just wanted to wrap my head around why you'd go to a store owned by someone you dislike. .
What makes disliking the owner a reason to not go to the store? His opinion of the owner doesn't change the existence of tables to play on, or put different stock on the shelves.
notprop wrote: First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
Because sales tax vary from state to state. Some cities even have an additional sales tax on top of the state tax.
notprop wrote: First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
Because sales tax vary from state to state. Some cities even have an additional sales tax on top of the state tax.
Which explains why the amount you're handing over at the register varies from place to place.
It doesn't explain why the price tag on the item in front of you doesn't have the actual price you're about to pay on it.
Haight wrote: I just wanted to wrap my head around why you'd go to a store owned by someone you dislike. .
What makes disliking the owner a reason to not go to the store? His opinion of the owner doesn't change the existence of tables to play on, or put different stock on the shelves.
Well, for one, there's other stores. My buds and I, if one of us HATED someone at a store, we'd go elsewhere.
Two... i'm 35. Conflict for it's own sake is in my rearview mirror. Once upon a time i'd have gone to every tournament the guy had and did my damnedst to win it, and shown up with models i didn't buy from him. .
And then I got to a point where i realized i was the only one taking note of all this caustic activity.
At the risk of going all deep thoughts... spending energy on hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
EDIT: line two should have had "from him" at the end,
Because absolutely nobody does it. None. Not the 'Mom & Pop' stores to the national retailers like Wal-Mart. If one store did, no one would shop there because everyone would think that's the retail price without taxes. That is the norm in the United States.
Ask mikhaila how he feels about discounts. I don't ask my FLGS owner for discounts, just like I don't ask for a discount from my grocery store, convenence store, or any other retail store I shop at. If your FLGS offers you a discount freely, then that's his/her business decision and hopefully they've done their due diligence on how that impacts their ability to stay in business.
In our service driven economy you don't ask for discounts where you can? I get its very hard at a national chain, but a local store the worst then can say is no. Hell, not negotiating cost/price on things you can is just throwing money away. I am honestly interested not trying to be a dick.
Out of curiosity is it not the norm for people to pay for table time? One store a bit farther from me charges $5 for the day but its in store credit.
Ghaz wrote: That is the norm in the United States.
Yes, we get that. The question was 'Why?'... because to those of us from places where the price on the shelf is the price you pay, it seems a really awkward and un-customer-friendly practice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dameanone wrote: In our service driven economy you don't ask for discounts where you can?
Most people won't ask for a discount, no.
If you want my business, put the actual price you want me to pay on your goods. If the price you will accept is lower than your ticket price, then you should have put that lower price on there to start with. Don't waste my time with price negotiations.
Out of curiosity is it not the norm for people to pay for table time?
Some places do. Most (from my experience) don't.
It's a somewhat divisive topic. Some players are totally ok with the idea, some will flat-out refuse to pay for a table.
To my mind, the best middle ground is for stores to push organised play as much as possible. Allow free use of the tables when there is no event running, but use as many tournies, campaigns, leagues, classes, etc as you can schedule in to actually pay for the table space.
If you want my business, put the actual price you want me to pay on your goods. If the price you will accept is lower than your ticket price, then you should have put that lower price on there to start with. Don't waste my time with price negotiations.
See I get that for piecemeal things. But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks? Maybe I am missing the point too much. If you mean just basic retail items sure, but negotiation happens in all forms of business.
dameanone wrote: But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks?
Uh... yes? If that's his price, then why would I expect to get it for anything different?
...but negotiation happens in all forms of business.
I get that it does happen. I just have no interest in it. I'm going to go with whoever offers me the better deal with the least amount of work on my part.
Ghaz wrote: That is the norm in the United States.
Yes, we get that. The question was 'Why?'... because to those of us from places where the price on the shelf is the price you pay, it seems a really awkward and un-customer-friendly practice.
Because that's the way its always been and it teaches Little Timmy to do percentages to figure out if he has enough cash if he wants to buy something. Its probably because there's no law dictating that the advertised price include sales tax on anything (other than gasoline) and some charitable organizations (churches, etc.) are tax-exempt. Absolutely no one here finds it awkward or an unfriendly practice to the customer, its just the way the world works.
notprop wrote: First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
Because sales tax vary from state to state. Some cities even have an additional sales tax on top of the state tax.
Which explains why the amount you're handing over at the register varies from place to place.
It doesn't explain why the price tag on the item in front of you doesn't have the actual price you're about to pay on it.
It's about transparency. Everywhere you go in Oz, you know that you're going to pay sales tax no matter what. So, it doesn't matter to you. You're desensitized to the tax. In America, you can literally cross an invisible line (or purchase two different items in the same store), and you'll pay no tax. So, an item I buy in County A may be taxed at 8%. If I drive a few more minutes, County B may offer that same item at no tax. County B probably wants you to know this. I know what the item costs without tax, so I can make a fair comparison on cost.
VAT is an invisible tax and to my mind as a Yank, seems an underhanded way to tax a citizen.
dameanone wrote: But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks?
Uh... yes? If that's his price, then why would I expect to get it for anything different?
...but negotiation happens in all forms of business.
I get that it does happen. I just have no interest in it. I'm going to go with whoever offers me the better deal with the least amount of work on my part.
I agree. I see the process of getting estimates and going with that can do the best job at the lowest price as a form of negotiations.
You shouldnt have to go into a store and ask for a discount. I go into the different stores and see for myself which has discounts and go with the ones with the owest prices combined with the best customer service (those are also where I will play as to me it doesnt make sense to buy at one store and play in a different one.
Natural selection handles it all eventually anyways. I've seen stores go out of business because they refused to offer discounts/gaming areas and had poor customer service and i have seen stores go out of business because they went too far in the other direction. The ones that prosper find the happy medium where both the store and the customer get what they want, the highest possible number on their respective bottom line. The whole "store vs customer" argument causes both to lose at the outset. What should be debated is "how can we BOTH win?"
Squidmanlolz, Love your sig picture. Suddenly i want to see a Commissar Cain movie starring him lol.
dameanone wrote: But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks?
Uh... yes? If that's his price, then why would I expect to get it for anything different?
...but negotiation happens in all forms of business.
I get that it does happen. I just have no interest in it. I'm going to go with whoever offers me the better deal with the least amount of work on my part.
Tend to agree. I have no interest in dealing with the process, or negotiating prices at all.
The only exception is when I am spending a lot of money (not talking about plumbers here...). When I routinely made large miniature orders, I would take my list to the store - and tell them how much I was going to pay. It wasn't a negotiating. I knew (roughly) what he paid, I knew what I thought was a fair profit on the transaction. I had no interest in arguing the issue. If they said no - I left. There are more than enough companies who will take the deal. You would be surprised how many of them changed their mind before I made it to the door.
notprop wrote: First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
Because sales tax vary from state to state. Some cities even have an additional sales tax on top of the state tax.
Which explains why the amount you're handing over at the register varies from place to place.
It doesn't explain why the price tag on the item in front of you doesn't have the actual price you're about to pay on it.
It's about transparency. Everywhere you go in Oz, you know that you're going to pay sales tax no matter what. So, it doesn't matter to you. You're desensitized to the tax. In America, you can literally cross an invisible line (or purchase two different items in the same store), and you'll pay no tax. So, an item I buy in County A may be taxed at 8%. If I drive a few more minutes, County B may offer that same item at no tax. County B probably wants you to know this. I know what the item costs without tax, so I can make a fair comparison on cost.
VAT is an invisible tax and to my mind as a Yank, seems an underhanded way to tax a citizen.
And I much prefer seeing the tax (well, don't like seeing it - but...you know). Personally though, I would much prefer to see the taxes made even more transparent. Go to fill up with gas...$10 worth of gas, $10 worth of taxes. Buy a 6 pack of beer to watch the game...$3 in beer, $1 in exise taxes, $0.5 sales tax... It would help people better understand just how often the government is reaching into their wallets.
Toofast wrote: . They're free to ban me if they wish and I'm free to shop elsewhere. I still don't see how me spending money I worked for at the places with the best prices can be equated to people who sit on the couch all day, eat everything in baby mommas fridge and sell dime bags on the corner to go buy king cobra and black n milds.
But... you are not an actual customer... So taking your money 'elsewhere' is an empty threat because you are ALREADY shopping elsewhere. And you would pay 5$ for table usage but not 5$ on product markup? I declare shenanigans on your attitude that you actually would be ok with a pay to play model.
You are basically using "services" without contributing to them and acting like you are entitled to those services that are supported by other people. Exactly the attitude of your fictional (and somewhat bigoted) caricature of the people you claim to support with your taxes.
Essentially the other people who 'pay where they pay' are taxpayers and you are the welfare queen getting a free place to game without contributing to society or paying taxes.
I would be a customer if the price was even somewhat competitive. I spend around $100 when I make a purchase, that's a lot more than a $5 markup. We've all done the math, it's nearly a $40 difference on a $100 purchase. I would be paying 57% more for the same product. I have a realm of battle table. All of my friends have terrain . We call each other and meet at the store anyway. If I get banned from the store (which the owner has already said he won't do. He wants people to come in, play and have fun even if they aren't buying, it makes the other people in the store more likely to try/buy whatever game we're playing) I will have the games at my house with the same people and nicer looking terrain. We just prefer the social aspect of the store and the owner enjoys having us. We've gotten a lot of new people into WMH who are too impatient to order online. They buy everything at the shop so they can build it and start testing it out.
Ghaz wrote: That is the norm in the United States.
Yes, we get that. The question was 'Why?'... because to those of us from places where the price on the shelf is the price you pay, it seems a really awkward and un-customer-friendly practice.
Because that's the way its always been and it teaches Little Timmy to do percentages to figure out if he has enough cash if he wants to buy something. Its probably because there's no law dictating that the advertised price include sales tax on anything (other than gasoline) and some charitable organizations (churches, etc.) are tax-exempt. Absolutely no one here finds it awkward or an unfriendly practice to the customer, its just the way the world works.
I lived in the states for a while and I found it annoying, I mentioned it to my American friends and their response was basically "that's just the way it works... but you're right it'd be better if they just told you what you were going to pay". It also wasn't consistent, some places DID list the price including tax, other places didn't.
It's probably less annoying when you pay everything by card, because whatever it just goes on your card. It's more annoying when you are paying things in cash. It would be nice if they listed both price with and without tax, but if it's one or the other I'd prefer with tax.
But anyway, I'm not really sure what this has to do with the original topic because I came in to this conversation late
As for the original topic, I don't really think I should feel compelled to try and uphold the business practices of my FLGS. If they find they aren't making money off their tables it's up to them to change their business practices to make it profitable, not up to me to support it. Relying on your customer to feel compelled to buy things to use the tables is IMO a bad business practice.
dameanone wrote: But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks?
Uh... yes? If that's his price, then why would I expect to get it for anything different?
...but negotiation happens in all forms of business.
I get that it does happen. I just have no interest in it. I'm going to go with whoever offers me the better deal with the least amount of work on my part.
Not sure about New Zealand, but here in the states if you're not negotiating with your contractors, or at the very very very least, getting multiple quotes to use as negotiation leverage, you are getting raped on the price.
Particularly emergency service contractors (like HVAC when your heat or AC isn't working, Plumbing when you have a leak if its a nasty one, pest removal when there's an angry raccooon on the loose in your attic, etc).
Most of the subs i know (and i work in the construction industry) that do single point spot service calls like this build in a gigantic amount of margin for two reasons: First it is unlikely you'll get repeat business in the near future ; once the probelm is fixed, its fixed. And two, they expect you're going to haggle, so they bump the price up.
Most subs i know have a markup factor of 2.5 on materials, and 2.0 on actual labor costs (though it matters shop to shop, of course). So there's room there. If you can get 10-15% off, you're probably getting a good deal.
However the model is much, much different than the MSRP model. There are still list prices and multipliers and markups at work, but there is no place where the faucet manufacturer says "If i ever leak, i recommend that my faucets leak be charged to the owner at a rate of 75".
It's a tempting model to use, but it's not accurate. One is a good, the other is a skilled trade service. One does not involve labor at the point of contact with product, one does. Etc etc.
Ghaz wrote: That is the norm in the United States.
Yes, we get that. The question was 'Why?'... because to those of us from places where the price on the shelf is the price you pay, it seems a really awkward and un-customer-friendly practice.
Because that's the way its always been and it teaches Little Timmy to do percentages to figure out if he has enough cash if he wants to buy something. Its probably because there's no law dictating that the advertised price include sales tax on anything (other than gasoline) and some charitable organizations (churches, etc.) are tax-exempt. Absolutely no one here finds it awkward or an unfriendly practice to the customer, its just the way the world works.
I lived in the states for a while and I found it annoying, I mentioned it to my American friends and their response was basically "that's just the way it works... but you're right it'd be better if they just told you what you were going to pay". It also wasn't consistent, some places DID list the price including tax, other places didn't.
It's probably less annoying when you pay everything by card, because whatever it just goes on your card. It's more annoying when you are paying things in cash. It would be nice if they listed both price with and without tax, but if it's one or the other I'd prefer with tax.
But anyway, I'm not really sure what this has to do with the original topic because I came in to this conversation late
As for the original topic, I don't really think I should feel compelled to try and uphold the business practices of my FLGS. If they find they aren't making money off their tables it's up to them to change their business practices to make it profitable, not up to me to support it. Relying on your customer to feel compelled to buy things to use the tables is IMO a bad business practice.
Side note.... there's a movement to do just this ; have a price on an item, or its scannable with smart-phone barcode, etc., reflect all prices. Would be very nice. Particularly when you live somewhere like me, where if you drive 90 minutes, you can be in 6 different states, and between them they have 5 different rates of sales tax.
You can have different rates of sales tax between countries in the EU but it doesn't really bother anyone that much that it's not made explicit to you here. Some EU countries are quite tiny so it's easy to cross from one to another.
I find it interesting and weird that you guys have a different system. It would allow me to show off my brilliant ability to do percentages quickly in my head though!
On discounts, it's been my experience that discounts are pretty rare in Europe, at least at the shops I have gone to. The one in Essex I frequented had a small discount, and I did buy a lot of stuff there, but I played there regularly so I would have spent without the discount. My "local" here in Germany does not discount unless it's trying to clear stock, and on some stuff like the Bones dragon I bought you are paying over the MSRP because they convert directly from Dollars to Euros. I don't speak German well enough to gauge if they are particularly friendly or not, but they don't need to be really in my face to have my business. I just like having somewhere to wander in and browse, and perhaps bump into likeminded people. It's much the same as I feel about bookshops. I would not like it if all the retail premises became warehouses on industrial estates because for the things I am interested in the activity of wandering around and seeing if anything catches my eye is quite enjoyable.
I think store credit for table space is a good idea. Like make a purchase or pay $5 and get the table for X amount of time. Our shop in Dublin used to do that and I had no problem with it. I guess the gamers in the US might feel more (oooh, controversial word ) entitled to free table space. (Oh, did he go there? He went there. Don't take it too hard guys )
As a store owner, posts like this make me sick. I honestly never understand why a game store is treated different to any other business with people whining about the prices to our faces.
That being said, why should you support a store vs going online
1. Game support. If the store supports the games with tournaments, campaigns, leagues etc.
2. Player introduction. Playing at home is neat and all but stores are what creates new players and keeps the hobby alive. You can buy online, but I imagine the interest waits fast if you can't find regular games.
3. Employee knowledge. Game stores should have extensive knowledge to help you find games, learn games and the like. Saving YOU time.
4. The store should have great service (honestly, that should go without saying)
5. It's part of the community. This is up to you, and tbh, is the same for any small business. It's part of your local community. Money you spend there. Goes to local roads, local schools and the like.
Topics like this never work though. People who buy online, tend to only buy online. People who find value in their store, buy there.
For those who assuage their guilt by saying "oh, I buy a pot of paint or candy bar once a month, that's enough right?" It's not. If you buy everything online and use store tables, and that store has good service, good terrain, is clean and the rest, then it deserves your money and has done more than enough to earn it. You are just being a leech by ignoring this.
Re: table space the big thing that I've seen is that in the US a game store is expected to provide table space, it's part of what they offer besides just stock. A store that didn't have any tables would likely not be in business very long, because they offer basically nothing, and then are just a hobby store not a game store (the type that sells model kits). The only store I ever went to that didn't have space was basically like that, it was specialized in model kits and had I think a few Reaper miniatures and D&D magazines and paint (Ral Partha, back then) which was it. Other than buying things once in a while there was no reason to bother going to the place. That's very unlike Europe where you have more clubs that rent halls or similar places and have members pay dues to cover it, and a shop is just where you buy things.
My big issue though is that when I compare saving a chunk of money buying online versus paying a lot more locally, the question that springs to my mind is what benefit does buying it locally offer me? I have to wait a week or more, assuming what I want can be ordered from the distributor. I have to (in my case) remember to check with the owner to make sure it actually came in or risk it being put on the shelf for anyone to buy (this has happened to myself and several others more than a few times), and when it does arrive I'm saving like $10 at best. Or I can order online, get a 30% discount, know it's in stock, and get it in 3 days. The store loses on basically every count beyond what is essentially sympathy.
I generally buy small things there, like (since I play Warmachine) the $9.99 or even $14.99 blisters with characters. Sometimes I'll buy a box if it's there already and I don't want to wait. But I can't bring myself to essentially waste a lot of money by going through hoops to order a big item or multiple items from the store because there's basically no benefit to me and only drawbacks: Wait time, paying more, never sure if the item is in stock, etc.
That's lose-lose to me.
One thing that another store does, which I would be cool with (I don't go there though as they are focused on 40k and nothing else) is they have a basically $20/month "club" that you can buy into and it gives you I think 20% discount, like preference when it comes to tables (not sure what that means, like if you can show up and kick walk-ins off of a table), and some unrelated stuff for Magic. I'd pay for something like that at a store to "cover" my game time.
Sergeant Horse wrote: As a store owner, posts like this make me sick. I honestly never understand why a game store is treated different to any other business with people whining about the prices to our faces.
That being said, why should you support a store vs going online
1. Game support. If the store supports the games with tournaments, campaigns, leagues etc.
2. Player introduction. Playing at home is neat and all but stores are what creates new players and keeps the hobby alive. You can buy online, but I imagine the interest waits fast if you can't find regular games.
3. Employee knowledge. Game stores should have extensive knowledge to help you find games, learn games and the like. Saving YOU time.
4. The store should have great service (honestly, that should go without saying)
5. It's part of the community. This is up to you, and tbh, is the same for any small business. It's part of your local community. Money you spend there. Goes to local roads, local schools and the like.
Topics like this never work though. People who buy online, tend to only buy online. People who find value in their store, buy there.
For those who assuage their guilt by saying "oh, I buy a pot of paint or candy bar once a month, that's enough right?" It's not. If you buy everything online and use store tables, and that store has good service, good terrain, is clean and the rest, then it deserves your money and has done more than enough to earn it. You are just being a leech by ignoring this.
But as a store owner how do you feel about people who already have established armies and don't really need to add anything to them? Do you expect them to buy junk they don't need out of obligation?
I'm fully happy for a store to charge for tables, or do something like starting a club with a membership fee and that fee will be reimbursed through store vouchers or anything like that. If I play in a store I'd much rather just pay the owner $30 (or whatever) to use the tables and have it reimbursed if I do decide to buy something than buy $50 worth of stuff that I either don't need or could get much cheaper elsewhere and only $20 goes to the store owner anyway.
It has nothing to do with guilt and I think you'll find most people who don't want to buy at an expensive FLGS they play at aren't doing it because they want to be leeches but rather because we don't want to play guesswork like "err, so how much do I need to buy this month to be pulling my weight?". If an FLGS can't justify tables because not enough people are buying product then I expect the FLGS owner to come up with a better business plan, I don't expect to have to burn money trying to uphold a business plan I don't even agree with.
If you find no value in any of my points, then playing at a store isnt for you.
Really? "Guesswork?"
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm curious as to what you'd like to see added to a business plan that you feel a store is lacking besides what I posted
As a store owner, what do you feel you provide BEYOND just a place to play? In my opinion that's not enough anymore. You're competing with a hefty discount and guaranteed stock from ordering online.
The way I see it I have two choices:
1) Order from the store, hope what I want is in stock with the distributor, hope that my shop can order it, hope it arrives (I've ordered things and they've never shown up), hope that I get told that it arrived so it doesn't go to someone else (I've found at least 2-3 things I've ordered just placed out on the shelf when I was never even told it came in), and last but not least pay basically full retail because of a tiny discount and sales tax
or
2) Order online, save 30%, know it's in stock, typically get free shipping, and then know it'll arrive within 3-4 days because the online store sends it priority mail, and save enough money to maybe buy another unit that I was on the fence about.
That's no contest to me. The store basically only offers tables, nothing else of value, and I don't think that's enough to get 100% of my business. Some things here and there, sure, but not everything. Important things that are either very expensive or that I need right away I'd always choose to order online, because either I'm saving a ton of money and/or because I'll get them fast. Things I don't really need or aren't crazy expensive, sure I'll order them from the local store.
I don't NEVER buy locally. Just not the important things. A $50 box is maybe the upper limit of what I'd consider buying/ordering at the store. Multiple things though tend to get ordered online just for the discount on them all (which often makes at least one of the things free essentially)
Your store is not a charity. Unless they are really hurting for money and you like everything about them, then don't buy stuff in general, unless you need too.
WayneTheGame wrote: As a store owner, what do you feel you provide BEYOND just a place to play? In my opinion that's not enough anymore. You're competing with a hefty discount and guaranteed stock from ordering online.
The way I see it I have two choices:
1) Order from the store, hope what I want is in stock with the distributor, hope that my shop can order it, hope it arrives (I've ordered things and they've never shown up), hope that I get told that it arrived so it doesn't go to someone else (I've found at least 2-3 things I've ordered just placed out on the shelf when I was never even told it came in), and last but not least pay basically full retail because of a tiny discount and sales tax
or
2) Order online, save 30%, know it's in stock, typically get free shipping, and then know it'll arrive within 3-4 days because the online store sends it priority mail, and save enough money to maybe buy another unit that I was on the fence about.
That's no contest to me. The store basically only offers tables, nothing else of value, and I don't think that's enough to get 100% of my business. Some things here and there, sure, but not everything. Important things that are either very expensive or that I need right away I'd always choose to order online, because either I'm saving a ton of money and/or because I'll get them fast. Things I don't really need or aren't crazy expensive, sure I'll order them from the local store.
You mean besides the things I posted? Events. Tournaments, campaigns. Extensive knowledge. Customer service, new players. A meeting space, an ear to listen to your woes, social acceptance. I can go on
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol, gamers be hard to please
Automatically Appended Next Post: Last night I ran an X Wing tournament. We had 26 people show up. That is a store service. You got to meet and hang with 26 like minded people. Try doing that in your garage .
Now the question is, does that equate to value towards the discount difference to you? If not, why not?
I also ran a modern tournament with 21 people, yesterday a standard with 23. Saturday, we had a Store Championship with 47 for Netrunner..all store services
Automatically Appended Next Post: I regularly make lists and talk forces for hours on end with people (for some things I honetly don't care about). I help them choose the right unit for their army, speak on the pros and cons. That's a service the same as a Best Buy salesperson talking to you about a TV
Sergeant Horse wrote: If you find no value in any of my points, then playing at a store isnt for you.
Really? "Guesswork?"
You didn't address the question I asked either:
EDIT: But as a store owner how do you feel about people who already have established armies and don't really need to add anything to them? Do you expect them to buy junk they don't need out of obligation? I see you answered that in a separate post.
Also, I do actually play in stores, or did at least, I play so little these days I probably don't classify anymore But one of the stores I used to play in had a lot of tables and would rent them out to groups, so you could play on them freely during the day but most evenings it was booked out by one of the local clubs. The other store I played in I do often buy stuff from, but that's because they have prices that are competitive and they are conveniently located.
I'm curious as to what you'd like to see added to a business plan that you feel a store is lacking besides what I posted
Well like I said, if the store owner feels that they aren't making enough off tables they can try something else, as far as I can see it's the store owner's responsibility to have a financially viable system for handling their tables.
WayneTheGame wrote: As a store owner, what do you feel you provide BEYOND just a place to play? In my opinion that's not enough anymore. You're competing with a hefty discount and guaranteed stock from ordering online.
The way I see it I have two choices:
1) Order from the store, hope what I want is in stock with the distributor, hope that my shop can order it, hope it arrives (I've ordered things and they've never shown up), hope that I get told that it arrived so it doesn't go to someone else (I've found at least 2-3 things I've ordered just placed out on the shelf when I was never even told it came in), and last but not least pay basically full retail because of a tiny discount and sales tax
or
2) Order online, save 30%, know it's in stock, typically get free shipping, and then know it'll arrive within 3-4 days because the online store sends it priority mail, and save enough money to maybe buy another unit that I was on the fence about.
That's no contest to me. The store basically only offers tables, nothing else of value, and I don't think that's enough to get 100% of my business. Some things here and there, sure, but not everything. Important things that are either very expensive or that I need right away I'd always choose to order online, because either I'm saving a ton of money and/or because I'll get them fast. Things I don't really need or aren't crazy expensive, sure I'll order them from the local store.
You mean besides the things I posted? Events. Tournaments, campaigns. Extensive knowledge. Customer service, new players. A meeting space, an ear to listen to your woes, social acceptance. I can go on
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol, gamers be hard to please
Automatically Appended Next Post: Last night I ran an X Wing tournament. We had 26 people show up. That is a store service. You got to meet and hang with 26 like minded people. Try doing that in your garage .
Now the question is, does that equate to value towards the discount difference to you? If not, why not?
Have an exalt. This is a great series of points.
I've known a lot of store owners. They are part Sam from Cheers, part psychologist, part pubescent advisor on the strange mystical creature known as the Girl, they are certainly unpaid daycare on weekends. That last one... i don't leave my son at the store unattended when he plays pokemon, but i literally see lots of parents drop their kids off at 11:00 am, and come get 'em at 5-6 pm.
THis is on top of the goods and services and expertise the store provides.
I mean... honestly... no one is going to change anyone's mind here on this topic. But stores offer a LOT more than just product on a rack to me. Which is why i buy there. I like taking my son to the store so he can pokemon where i can keep an eye on him while my buds and i play some WHFB. While i can game at my house, as i mentioned it sucks in winter time as the space is unheated currently, and i have a dog and a missus as well which can lead to distractions. Also to anyone say "well i don't have kids so i don't care". Fair. Were you ever one of these drop off kids ? Then you benefited, whether you're willing to admit it or not.
I also think that referring to stores as charities is a bit harsh. It's just that they offer a product, and the product tends to glaze over all the other services by virtue of the fact its a retailer, and we're not used to service oriented retail. The product is the cashflow driver, not the services, the services are what keep you coming back. Unfortunately the product is expensive and available on line for moderately cheaper. That's the conundrum. Paying 80 bucks or 100 bucks as a choice has a way of making you forget all the benefits of store patronage.
Sergeant Horse wrote: Last night I ran an X Wing tournament. We had 26 people show up. That is a store service. You got to meet and hang with 26 like minded people. Try doing that in your garage .
Now the question is, does that equate to value towards the discount difference to you? If not, why not?
Nope, it doesn't. It doesn't because while it might be nice that the store is doing that... there are also local clubs that I can arrange games and tournaments through.
I regularly make lists and talk forces for hours on end with people (for some things I honetly don't care about). I help them choose the right unit for their army, speak on the pros and cons. That's a service the same as a Best Buy salesperson talking to you about a TV
I find this a separate issue. If I go in to a store and ask for advice it's usually because I intend to buy from that store. My local hobby store (doesn't deal in wargames, just planes/cars/remote control/etc) I'll often go in and ask the guy for advice on what techniques to use, what products he recommends, and I'll buy the stuff he convinces me is worth buying (and he doesn't waste my time/money trying to sell me junk I don't need).
For the most part though... I don't ask shop keepers for advice. Most advice a shop attendant will give you, you could have not only learned but surpassed with 15 minutes of googling. The reason I ask that specific guy at the hobby shop questions is because he has some incredible looking models in his display cabinet that I know he did himself.
But anyway, I don't consider the service of asking a shop keeper for advice and buying products at the shop based on the advice the same as buying from the store you play at. The latter has a far larger disconnect, weeks or months will pass between me buying models and playing with them, sometimes I'll go months without playing a game but will be buying product, sometimes I'll go months without buying but still playing regularly, sometimes I'll do neither for months at a time.
I think tables in a FLGS are more akin to pool tables in a pub. It might be a free pool table, if so, cool, if I want to buy a drink while I play pool I'll do that, but I won't feel compelled to sit down and have a whole meal just because the pool table was free. Maybe they charge a dollar or two per game, if so, cool, if I want to play pool I'll pay the price to play it.
I'm not going to feel guilty when I order stuff online instead of the FLGS I play at because if the FLGS wanted money out of me directly for using their tables then I'd pay it (as long as it was still good value), if they want me to buy product they need to offer me something compelling to do that, which frankly when it comes to wargames is simply a competitive price and a convenient location.
Sergeant Horse wrote: Last night I ran an X Wing tournament. We had 26 people show up. That is a store service. You got to meet and hang with 26 like minded people. Try doing that in your garage .
Now the question is, does that equate to value towards the discount difference to you? If not, why not?
Nope, it doesn't. It doesn't because while it might be nice that the store is doing that... there are also local clubs that I can arrange games and tournaments through.
I regularly make lists and talk forces for hours on end with people (for some things I honetly don't care about). I help them choose the right unit for their army, speak on the pros and cons. That's a service the same as a Best Buy salesperson talking to you about a TV
I find this a separate issue. If I go in to a store and ask for advice it's usually because I intend to buy from that store. My local hobby store (doesn't deal in wargames, just planes/cars/remote control/etc) I'll often go in and ask the guy for advice on what techniques to use, what products he recommends, and I'll buy the stuff he convinces me is worth buying (and he doesn't waste my time/money trying to sell me junk I don't need).
For the most part though... I don't ask shop keepers for advice. Most advice a shop attendant will give you, you could have not only learned but surpassed with 15 minutes of googling. The reason I ask that specific guy at the hobby shop questions is because he has some incredible looking models in his display cabinet that I know he did himself.
But anyway, I don't consider the service of asking a shop keeper for advice and buying products at the shop based on the advice the same as buying from the store you play at. The latter has a far larger disconnect, weeks or months will pass between me buying models and playing with them, sometimes I'll go months without playing a game but will be buying product, sometimes I'll go months without buying but still playing regularly, sometimes I'll do neither for months at a time.
I think tables in a FLGS are more akin to pool tables in a pub. It might be a free pool table, if so, cool, if I want to buy a drink while I play pool I'll do that, but I won't feel compelled to sit down and have a whole meal just because the pool table was free. Maybe they charge a dollar or two per game, if so, cool, if I want to play pool I'll pay the price to play it.
I'm not going to feel guilty when I order stuff online instead of the FLGS I play at because if the FLGS wanted money out of me directly for using their tables then I'd pay it (as long as it was still good value), if they want me to buy product they need to offer me something compelling to do that, which frankly when it comes to wargames is simply a competitive price and a convenient location.
And there in is the burn. You don't consider our service a service, so game stores are not for you.
Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.
Not sure about New Zealand, but here in the states if you're not negotiating with your contractors, or at the very very very least, getting multiple quotes to use as negotiation leverage, you are getting raped on the price.
Particularly emergency service contractors (like HVAC when your heat or AC isn't working, Plumbing when you have a leak if its a nasty one, pest removal when there's an angry raccooon on the loose in your attic, etc).
Most of the subs i know (and i work in the construction industry) that do single point spot service calls like this build in a gigantic amount of margin for two reasons: First it is unlikely you'll get repeat business in the near future ; once the probelm is fixed, its fixed. And two, they expect you're going to haggle, so they bump the price up.
Most subs i know have a markup factor of 2.5 on materials, and 2.0 on actual labor costs (though it matters shop to shop, of course). So there's room there. If you can get 10-15% off, you're probably getting a good deal.
However the model is much, much different than the MSRP model. There are still list prices and multipliers and markups at work, but there is no place where the faucet manufacturer says "If i ever leak, i recommend that my faucets leak be charged to the owner at a rate of 75".
It's a tempting model to use, but it's not accurate. One is a good, the other is a skilled trade service. One does not involve labor at the point of contact with product, one does. Etc etc.
This 100%. But it can also apply to tangible goods. A car? Do you walk into a dealership and just pay list? In most dealerships in the states if that's a yes, the salesperson is going to laugh hysterically once you leave. I work in IT and I expect service/products to be negotiated. Whether its $500 or $5000. Worst case scenario the answer you will get is "no, or that's the best price I can offer"
One thing that people need to remember and understand.
Is that if you feel you don't need game stores, they also probably also don't need you.
The people who feel like they are helping a charity, probably are, as that store is most likely not being ran like a business.
If you come into my store with an entirely net bought army, spend your time complaining to me about prices, stock etc, then don't be surprised when I smile, shrug my shoulders at you and disengage to talk to somebody worth my time and effort. Will you feel put out? Possibly. Will it make you shop online more? Probably, but then, you were going to anyway
Sergeant Horse wrote: Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.
I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sergeant Horse wrote: If you come into my store with an entirely net bought army, spend your time complaining to me about prices, stock etc, then don't be surprised when I smile, shrug my shoulders at you and disengage to talk to somebody worth my time and effort. Will you feel put out? Possibly. Will it make you shop online more? Probably, but then, you were going to anyway
Oh that's fine then because I probably never would have engaged you in conversation anyway I have no problem with you trying to sell to people who are looking to buy instead of casually chatting with me, lol.
Sergeant Horse wrote: Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.
I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt
I'm pretty sure people do. But then, what do I know, I only see it on a daily basis.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sergeant Horse wrote: If you come into my store with an entirely net bought army, spend your time complaining to me about prices, stock etc, then don't be surprised when I smile, shrug my shoulders at you and disengage to talk to somebody worth my time and effort. Will you feel put out? Possibly. Will it make you shop online more? Probably, but then, you were going to anyway
Oh that's fine then because I probably never would have engaged you in conversation anyway I have no problem with you trying to sell to people who are looking to buy instead of casually chatting with me, lol.
Casually chatting is different to listening to you complain.
Also, you strike me as someone who falls into the "Doesn't need a game store" category.
Not sure about New Zealand, but here in the states if you're not negotiating with your contractors, or at the very very very least, getting multiple quotes to use as negotiation leverage, you are getting raped on the price.
Particularly emergency service contractors (like HVAC when your heat or AC isn't working, Plumbing when you have a leak if its a nasty one, pest removal when there's an angry raccooon on the loose in your attic, etc).
Most of the subs i know (and i work in the construction industry) that do single point spot service calls like this build in a gigantic amount of margin for two reasons: First it is unlikely you'll get repeat business in the near future ; once the probelm is fixed, its fixed. And two, they expect you're going to haggle, so they bump the price up.
Most subs i know have a markup factor of 2.5 on materials, and 2.0 on actual labor costs (though it matters shop to shop, of course). So there's room there. If you can get 10-15% off, you're probably getting a good deal.
However the model is much, much different than the MSRP model. There are still list prices and multipliers and markups at work, but there is no place where the faucet manufacturer says "If i ever leak, i recommend that my faucets leak be charged to the owner at a rate of 75".
It's a tempting model to use, but it's not accurate. One is a good, the other is a skilled trade service. One does not involve labor at the point of contact with product, one does. Etc etc.
This 100%. But it can also apply to tangible goods. A car? Do you walk into a dealership and just pay list? In most dealerships in the states if that's a yes, the salesperson is going to laugh hysterically once you leave. I work in IT and I expect service/products to be negotiated. Whether its $500 or $5000. Worst case scenario the answer you will get is "no, or that's the best price I can offer"
It all depends on what you're buying. If you're just getting an off the shelf product, I wouldn't imagine there'd be much negotiating going on, you either pay it or you go elsewhere.
When it comes to very expensive items like cars or if you're buying in bulk, that's where negotiation comes in a bit more.
If I'm just buying a box of models off the shelf, I'll either pay the price listed or I'll move on, If I'm buying $1000 worth of models I might try and negotiate a discount because I know they're making more than a few bucks off me.
As for plumbers and whatnot... errr... I don't really know what convention is here because I so rarely get people in to do work. I think about 6 years ago I had an electrician in to do some work. I imagine if you're employing someone who has a very high hourly rate AND is charging a large markup on their parts I might consider trying to negotiate a better price. But it comes up so rarely I don't really know, lol.
Sometimes me and a friend have chipped in to buy say €120 worth of models, and the FLGS have offered a discount to make it worth our while. Foe less than that, its all online stores for me unfortunately.
For most entertainment spending I try to buy from local businesses at least half the time. I get some videos from my local store even though Netflix is cheaper. Likewise I order about half my books through the store, even though it costs me €1-€2 more per book. However I don't have that option with 40k, as its astronomically more expensive than anything else I buy.
I generally have no problem with people buying from online if they don't play in store.
However, if you use a store's gaming space regularly, even just to hang out with friends, you should try to buy there within reason.
Most stores these days have reward/discount programs too. My local store that I frequent has a 10% loyalty program, and an additional 5%-10% off special orders and pre-orders. This easily narrows the gap between online ordering to a 5%-10% difference.
I'd gladly pay that 5-10% over discounter prices for a well maintained play space in my area, it's hard here to get together at a someone's house due to logistics or families.
Sergeant Horse wrote: Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.
I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt
I'm pretty sure people do. But then, what do I know, I only see it on a daily basis.
You do? How does this guilt manifest itself? Are you sure it's not just social awkwardness? Or people just not wanting to talk to you? People might feel no guilt at playing at a store they don't buy from, it doesn't mean they want to have to be confronted about it by a store owner.
People actually do that? They come in to your store and complain about the prices to you? I feel like you must live in a strange place with strange people
Also, you strike me as someone who falls into the "Doesn't need a game store" category.
No I don't really need a store, I do need somewhere to play, and the two can often overlap.
A store can be a good place to game and I won't feel guilty if I don't buy from the store nor will I feel offended if the store owner decides they need to make money off tables by charging for their use or charging a membership fee to use the tables.
Sergeant Horse wrote: Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.
I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt
I'm pretty sure people do. But then, what do I know, I only see it on a daily basis.
You do? How does this guilt manifest itself? Are you sure it's not just social awkwardness? Or people just not wanting to talk to you? People might feel no guilt at playing at a store they don't buy from, it doesn't mean they want to have to be confronted about it by a store owner.
People actually do that? They come in to your store and complain about the prices to you? I feel like you must live in a strange place with strange people
Also, you strike me as someone who falls into the "Doesn't need a game store" category.
No I don't really need a store, I do need somewhere to play, and the two can often overlap.
A store can be a good place to game and I won't feel guilty if I don't buy from the store nor will I feel offended if the store owner decides they need to make money off tables by charging for their use or charging a membership fee to use the tables.
Who says I confront them about it I do get people that apologise to me for buying online, I tell them, I'd rather just not be told.
By the way, tables fees do not work. They are a deathknell for a store. So with that being off the table, what do you do to pay for this place to play? Or do you just use it until it's gone and then wonder what happened.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The funny thing is, in all this, nobody has actually posted exactly WHAT they expect a store to offer (besides matching online prices which is a no go) to make them support local otyher than what I posted above
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I'll just check back in 8 hours and see if somebody does
If I'm just buying a box of models off the shelf, I'll either pay the price listed or I'll move on, If I'm buying $1000 worth of models I might try and negotiate a discount because I know they're making more than a few bucks off me.
As for plumbers and whatnot... errr... I don't really know what convention is here because I so rarely get people in to do work. I think about 6 years ago I had an electrician in to do some work. I imagine if you're employing someone who has a very high hourly rate AND is charging a large markup on their parts I might consider trying to negotiate a better price. But it comes up so rarely I don't really know, lol.
Yea man thats what I was trying to say. I wont haggle for a single box, but if I want to drop $500 on models I will at least ask if they are willing to give a discount.
By the way, tables fees do not work. They are a deathknell for a store. So with that being off the table, what do you do to pay for this place to play? Or do you just use it until it's gone and then wonder what happened.
Is that in your area? By me its unusual to not charge a table fee. In fact the most popular place outside of NYC in this area charges $5 for the day (its store credit). They regularly have 15-20 people playing.
If I'm just buying a box of models off the shelf, I'll either pay the price listed or I'll move on, If I'm buying $1000 worth of models I might try and negotiate a discount because I know they're making more than a few bucks off me.
As for plumbers and whatnot... errr... I don't really know what convention is here because I so rarely get people in to do work. I think about 6 years ago I had an electrician in to do some work. I imagine if you're employing someone who has a very high hourly rate AND is charging a large markup on their parts I might consider trying to negotiate a better price. But it comes up so rarely I don't really know, lol.
Yea man thats what I was trying to say. I wont haggle for a single box, but if I want to drop $500 on models I will at least ask if they are willing to give a discount.
Haight wrote: I just wanted to wrap my head around why you'd go to a store owned by someone you dislike. .
What makes disliking the owner a reason to not go to the store? His opinion of the owner doesn't change the existence of tables to play on, or put different stock on the shelves.
I completely stopped all purchases from a store when I got fired by one of the three owners for calling him out on fudging tournament results and screwing over one of my friends for first, just because the guy liked somebody else better. And yes, before you ask, I ran the tournaments. I knew the placements of the players. He fired me, I quit going and convinced my friends to quit going. Warhammer died almost overnight in his store.
If you hate a store owner, it's damn good reason not to go there: why help line his pocket? That's madness. But don't play there either. Eventually, something will set one of you off. And it's his store: I don't think he'd be the one asked to leave if an argument got heated enough that it could potentially lead to law officers being involved.
Sergeant Horse wrote: By the way, tables fees do not work. They are a deathknell for a store. So with that being off the table, what do you do to pay for this place to play? Or do you just use it until it's gone and then wonder what happened.
I dunno, the store near me seemed to do okay charging clubs to use the store tables in the evening and charging entrance fees to tournaments, and I think for the most part only a fraction of people who buy in a store use the tables casually anyway. I think you could do fees in a way that doesn't hurt your customer base too much (though certainly you could be stupid about it and do it in a way that does ).
The funny thing is, in all this, nobody has actually posted exactly WHAT they expect a store to offer (besides matching online prices which is a no go) to make them support local otyher than what I posted above
I'm pretty sure I did mention it somewhere... to support my local store they need to be competitively priced and located in a convenient place so that I'm not going out of my way. Not price matched, but just competitive, my FLGS has ~12% discount on GW prices which doesn't match or beat online prices but it's good enough for me to go there for the convenience of being able to grab stuff on my way home from work.
Typically I'm not going to go to a store, see a product, then go home and buy online just to save myself a few bucks, though I will if it's a decent amount of money like on a bulk purchase. So maybe if there were sign above the counter "Ask about discounts on bulk products!" I might be more inclined to do that as well. But the fact is I don't usually buy bulk any more because I already have too many models, so whether I buy from my local store or buy online mostly comes down to availability, none of the local stores stock much WW2 stuff and that's mostly what I've bought recently, so it's all come from online.
Sergeant Horse wrote: By the way, tables fees do not work. They are a deathknell for a store. So with that being off the table, what do you do to pay for this place to play? Or do you just use it until it's gone and then wonder what happened.
I dunno, the store near me seemed to do okay charging clubs to use the store tables in the evening and charging entrance fees to tournaments, and I think for the most part only a fraction of people who buy in a store use the tables casually anyway. I think you could do fees in a way that doesn't hurt your customer base too much (though certainly you could be stupid about it and do it in a way that does ).
The funny thing is, in all this, nobody has actually posted exactly WHAT they expect a store to offer (besides matching online prices which is a no go) to make them support local otyher than what I posted above
I'm pretty sure I did mention it somewhere... to support my local store they need to be competitively priced and located in a convenient place so that I'm not going out of my way. Not price matched, but just competitive, my FLGS has ~12% discount on GW prices which doesn't match or beat online prices but it's good enough for me to go there for the convenience of being able to grab stuff on my way home from work.
Typically I'm not going to go to a store, see a product, then go home and buy online just to save myself a few bucks, though I will if it's a decent amount of money like on a bulk purchase. So maybe if there were sign above the counter "Ask about discounts on bulk products!" I might be more inclined to do that as well. But the fact is I don't usually buy bulk any more because I already have too many models, so whether I buy from my local store or buy online mostly comes down to availability, none of the local stores stock much WW2 stuff and that's mostly what I've bought recently, so it's all come from online.
So good location and good stock? That's reasonable. A store should have good stock. There's actually some people who make the point that inventory kills a business, but in hobby sales, it's a must.
As to the discount, 10%-15% overall is fine, and offering bigger for bigger purchases is possible. Though you have to remember, if you spend $100 in a store, about $15 of that is actual profit after costs, so that 10% discount is 66% of the profit gone.
I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing
Sergeant Horse wrote: I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing
I'm sure if varies across both countries. I imagine in cities with smaller domestic properties people would be more inclined to pay. In country areas where people have larger houses it's probably harder to get people to pay for tables (but on the flip side the extra store area to have tables probably doesn't cost as much either). I live in a suburban area over here, many people do have the space for tables in their houses, but I'd say most of my gaming mates don't have space for a 6x4 table, maybe a 4x4.
So, how do you feel then about buying some things at the store and some things external? As I said, the issue usually only comes up with very expensive figures or a large bulk purchase. Impulse buys or things like character blisters, even regular unit boxes, I'll often ask my store to order. But if I'm placing a $300 order, I'll save a ton more ordering online than ordering from the store, nevermind the fact that some of the items might not be in stock with the distributor so I won't be able to get them all at once.
WayneTheGame wrote: So, how do you feel then about buying some things at the store and some things external? As I said, the issue usually only comes up with very expensive figures or a large bulk purchase. Impulse buys or things like character blisters, even regular unit boxes, I'll often ask my store to order. But if I'm placing a $300 order, I'll save a ton more ordering online than ordering from the store, nevermind the fact that some of the items might not be in stock with the distributor so I won't be able to get them all at once.
I don't like it (No store owner would) but I accept it happens and don't begrudge anybody, nor make a big deal about it. However, if you came to me and said, hey man, I'm buying $300 stuff, anything you can do, I'd probably work something out
I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing
Really? Again the most popular store in my area charges $5 in store credit to play, and they have a huge following. I am more then happy to pay for a store with good customer service, nice terrain, a large gaming area and an owner who cares.
Go into NYC or the boroughs a lot of places you are lucky if you are only paying $15 for a table that is not store credit.
I think really the business model for local game stores are changing and should change. If you expect to be retail and make money in a online global economy.... you are doing it wrong. You have too much associated risk with vendors like games workshop who can cut you off at any minutes notice and resrict your potential to sell (via online). You have issues with getting enough stock in your store or limited stock in your store (magic or PP).
Honestly you are better off selling the snickers bar. You can always get stock and you don't have issues.
What I am saying is you will see and probably more store owners should look at selling food first (the probably high a higher mark up too) . Creating a great gaming environment.
The shops that seem to do well follow this model with having secondary items such as MTG and 40k as selling points.
Giga bites cafe and Emerald Tavern are two great stores that I know that follow this model.
Sergeant Horse wrote: As to the discount, 10%-15% overall is fine, and offering bigger for bigger purchases is possible. Though you have to remember, if you spend $100 in a store, about $15 of that is actual profit after costs, so that 10% discount is 66% of the profit gone.
Thank you for saying this, Sergeant Horse. The average person who walks into a gaming store has no clue about the margins on GW. They see a $50 boxed set, and assume that the owner is making $25 on that box. It's actually closer to $5.
I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing
Charging for tables can work, but it has to be done from the start, and it has to work in a way where the staff is not put into an adversarial relationship to the customer: the staff should not be fee collectors. I've never paid for table space, but if it was done correctly, I wouldn't have a problem with a token amount. But again, once I'm paying for a service, I expect the tables to be in good condition and broken terrain to be repaired/replaced. So, is this new expectation and the costs associated with it worth the nominal fee? I don't know.
Sergeant Horse wrote: As to the discount, 10%-15% overall is fine, and offering bigger for bigger purchases is possible. Though you have to remember, if you spend $100 in a store, about $15 of that is actual profit after costs, so that 10% discount is 66% of the profit gone.
Thank you for saying this, Sergeant Horse. The average person who walks into a gaming store has no clue about the margins on GW. They see a $50 boxed set, and assume that the owner is making $25 on that box. It's actually closer to $5.
I wonder is it a national thing then. You're in Australia (?), I only know that here in the US, charging for tables leads to much teeth gnashing
Charging for tables can work, but it has to be done from the start, and it has to work in a way where the staff is not put into an adversarial relationship to the customer: the staff should not be fee collectors. I've never paid for table space, but if it was done correctly, I wouldn't have a problem with a token amount. But again, once I'm paying for a service, I expect the tables to be in good condition and broken terrain to be repaired/replaced. So, is this new expectation and the costs associated with it worth the nominal fee? I don't know.
A rewards program could be worthwhile, like I said before. Monthly fee but you get all the table time you want (barring MtG pre-releases and other stuff), and a discount or access to other things.
A few things to not.
1. Your store is not a charity. This means do not expect them to give you stuff for free.
2. Gamers are not a charity. Do not expect them to walk into a store and hand over cash for nothing.
3. Employee knowledge. I have to laugh at this one. Most shops just dont offer it. They put it on the shelf and hard sell it to you. Then when you play the game and have a question, you get the responce of 'google it yourself" I'm lucky in that my local store actually DOES have game support. This good customer service is why I spend money there.
4. Game support. If you play one of the big money makers like MTG you get plenty of this. With wargaming, not so much. However, the store is not out anything on this as GW or whatever parent company that produces the game is giving the stuff away not the store itself and the store doubles their sales for the day. It's a win win.
5. Player introduction. Yes, you can learn the local players this way. Often faster than social media.
6. Customer introduction. Also known as free advertising in that having gamers play at the store brings in more customers than there would be otherwise. This is why store owners who run successful businesses ask players to game there for this very reason.
7. Business plan or basic economics- "opening a store" and putting stuff on shelves at a huge markup and then slapping a sheet of plywood down on top of the comic book boxes and then complaining about losing money and going out of business because of leeches who want to play their game where they buy their game is a poor business model. It takes more than that.
.......
It goes on and on with BOTH sides having valid points. It also goes on and on with BOTH sides totally ignoring the points of the other side. it also goes on and on with veiled insults and jabs. Just because we are wargamers does not mean we have to be at war. LOL Look at the very title of the thread. "Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money". It is looked at as an 'all or nothing' question and that is a lose/lose situation.
The int is a store that does not offe discounts (or at least some sort of club that a player can buy into or some way for reguler customers to dave money on purchases or offer perks such as tourneys, seminars and events will go out of business. Without a shop to play at playes will have to play at home or find somewhere to play.
The onus is on the shop owner to find what works and take the first steps towards it because they are the ones with something to lose. A player can always play at home with other locals until a new shop opens up.
Shops open and close all the time. the ones with good business plans stay open.
The number 1 reason ive seen them go out of business was not offering discounts, poor customer service and lack of a playing area.
I have also seen them go out of business by being TOO nice. Buying MTG cards at full "book value" and offering store credit (not the kind where you pay and then have it but the kind where you pay later).
My local has not only stayed open but has had to move locations 3 times now each time to someplace bigger. Their current one is downright huge with the gaming area almost twice the size of a normal shop, a sales floor almost twice the size of a normal shop and even a kitchenette with a fridge for players to keep stuff cold. How has Dave managed to do so well? He offers a discount to loyal/regular customers. Has great customer service, and offers us good knowledge and assistance. Heck, he keeps his armies at the shop and and loas them to players or potential players. He doesn't see us customers as adversaries to rail against but as human beings and understands what it takes to get our business knowing that he is competing with the internet and that he doesn't get 100% of our business.
The main issue is - I rarely purchase anything besides paint/glue/brushes.
For expanding my IG Army, I'll buy a few kits from the FLGS. The issue is, I've only purchased "A few kits" for the entire year. With the GW Prices, I don't really spend as much as I used to, but I play about the same.
EVIL INC wrote: A few things to not.
1. Your store is not a charity. This means do not expect them to give you stuff for free.
2. Gamers are not a charity. Do not expect them to walk into a store and hand over cash for nothing.
3. Employee knowledge. I have to laugh at this one. Most shops just dont offer it. They put it on the shelf and hard sell it to you. Then when you play the game and have a question, you get the responce of 'google it yourself" I'm lucky in that my local store actually DOES have game support. This good customer service is why I spend money there.
4. Game support. If you play one of the big money makers like MTG you get plenty of this. With wargaming, not so much. However, the store is not out anything on this as GW or whatever parent company that produces the game is giving the stuff away not the store itself and the store doubles their sales for the day. It's a win win.
5. Player introduction. Yes, you can learn the local players this way. Often faster than social media.
6. Customer introduction. Also known as free advertising in that having gamers play at the store brings in more customers than there would be otherwise. This is why store owners who run successful businesses ask players to game there for this very reason.
7. Business plan or basic economics- "opening a store" and putting stuff on shelves at a huge markup and then slapping a sheet of plywood down on top of the comic book boxes and then complaining about losing money and going out of business because of leeches who want to play their game where they buy their game is a poor business model. It takes more than that.
.......
It goes on and on with BOTH sides having valid points. It also goes on and on with BOTH sides totally ignoring the points of the other side. it also goes on and on with veiled insults and jabs. Just because we are wargamers does not mean we have to be at war. LOL Look at the very title of the thread. "Supporting your local store vs. saving a lot of money". It is looked at as an 'all or nothing' question and that is a lose/lose situation.
The int is a store that does not offe discounts (or at least some sort of club that a player can buy into or some way for reguler customers to dave money on purchases or offer perks such as tourneys, seminars and events will go out of business. Without a shop to play at playes will have to play at home or find somewhere to play.
The onus is on the shop owner to find what works and take the first steps towards it because they are the ones with something to lose. A player can always play at home with other locals until a new shop opens up.
Shops open and close all the time. the ones with good business plans stay open.
The number 1 reason ive seen them go out of business was not offering discounts, poor customer service and lack of a playing area.
I have also seen them go out of business by being TOO nice. Buying MTG cardsat full "book value" and offering store credit(not the kind where you pay and then have it but the kind where you pay later).
My local has not only stayed open but has had to move locations 3 times now each time to someplace bigger. Their current one is downright huge with the gaming area almost twice the size of a normal shop, a sales floor almost twice the size of a normal shop and even a kitchenette with a fridge for playes to keep stuff cold. How has Dave managed to do so well? He offers a discount to loyal/reguler customers. Has great customer service, and offers us good knowledge and assistance. Heck, he keeps his armies at the shop and ans them to players or potential players. e doesnt see us customers as adversaries to rail against but as human beings ad understands what it takes to get our business know that he is competing with the internet and that he doesnt get 100% of our business.
You SHOULD be feeling the love. We are trying to help you stay in business.
Just because you will soon replaced IF you fail doesnt mean anyone actually wants you to. We want shops to stay open and succeed. Not just so there is a convenient place to play publicly and buy product from locally but because the shops are usually run by gamers and we want to help fellow gamers out as we can within reason.
You can tell I'm not a good typer. Going back now to fix some typos.
I gotta say I think if you're going to take up free table space in a store, you should buy something there. It just seems like common courtesy.
I wouldn't expect you to buy EVERYTHING there though. I suppose the odd blister or boxed set is okay.
I get annoyed at people who scoff and think that those of us who pay full price are fools. Perhaps I pay full price because I put a value on having a high street with interesting shops to walk around. I can get all my books cheap on Amazon, but going to the book shop for a wander and a browse is a day out for me. I can wander along there, have a hot chocolate and look at lots of different books. Same thing with Games Stores (though they tend to be untidier and smellier). GW is something of a special case because the pushy sales tactics they use puts me off browsing in there. I don't like feeling pressured in that way. But leave me alone in your store and I'll talk myself into picking something up, even if it's just hobby supplies, every time.
Way I see it a lot of people here have it backwards. You don't go to a store, use their tables, then buy things from there because you use there tables. You go to a store because of the tables and while you're there the staff will be able to sell you things.
In some areas of retail people spent a lot of time and money just getting people to walk through their door. With open gaming and events FLGSs have a massive leg up on other retail outlets as they can get customers consistently returning to their store, as well as occasionally bringing friends.
A good FLGSimo won't charge for space or expect people to buy from them because of the tables. They will use the tables to fill their store with customers then sell to those customers. Its simply a (very effective) method of advertising.
I buy almost exclusively online, primarily for the prices. The 'almost exclusively' is because, each time I go into a local game shop, especially if it's one I frequent, I always try to find something to buy. Usually, at the GW shop, that's nothing more than a paint pot, but at the very least I'm doing something to help the store stay open.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The most successful long-term gaming stores I've seen had ONE 4'x8' table that served multiple purposes, with folding tables for card gaming nights.
The stores with more table space than product shelving? Out of business within a year.
If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.
Your anecdotal evidence is just that: anecdotal
My FLGS has expanded three times in the three years I've been going there. He started in a small unit with very little room for tables and a cramped product area, he then moved to a larger unit in the same shopping center and doubled his shelf space and table area, and then expanded into the adjacent unit to make a dedicated game room the same size as his previous game/shelf space.
In the main store he has eight 4'x8' tables and the game room is full of folding tables and a metal workbench for painting. We had 29 players in the X-wing store championship last weekend that took up all of the main tables and some of the game room and there was still more than enough space for the board game group to hold their games and some guys play card games.
There's a place in London called the Trocadero that used to have dozens of arcade games in there. I used to wander by as a teenager, and the place was always packed with other teenagers. A few years ago though, it went out of business. The reason? None of those teenagers actually used the machines, they just used it as a convenient place to hang out.
It's all very well and good to sit though and say, 'Ah well, free market, I'll buy at the cheapest place, and then play somewhere with absolutely no guilt. Because if they wanted my money, they'd lure me in and make me want to spend my money there!' The fact remains though, that if everyone adopts such a tack, there is quickly no longer a gaming store for you to play at with all those models you bought online.
It is all well and good for to not buy anything, but if the owner sees you wandering in with many new models and you never buy anything, he is well within his rights to simply eject you. You contribute nothing, and occupy physical space and table space a paying customer can use. He is not the store you want, and likewise, you are not a customer he wants, primarily because you are not a customer.
I think the truth here though, is that if you buy online and play in a store, you clearly have a desire to play in a store. It might not matter enough to you to part with your dough, but the desire is there. Which means losing your play space will be an inconvenience for you, whatever form that takes.
Am I the only one who finds it odd that FLGS are one of the only places that uses free services I can get at home or somewhere else as a way to guilt you into buying them?
What other service does the same. A restaurant doesn't try to compel me to buy there because their dining area is nice, they do ito by offering good food with reasonable prices.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Am I the only one who finds it odd that FLGS are one of the only places that uses free services I can get at home or somewhere else as a way to guilt you into buying them?
What other service does the same. A restaurant doesn't try to compel me to buy there because their dining area is nice, they do ito by offering good food with reasonable prices.
A more accurate analogy would be you walking into a four star restaurant with a Burger King you bought outside, and then complaining when the restaurant owner tells you to buy some food there. "Honestly man, just because you have a nice dining area and great waiters is no reason for me to buy food here! You need to do cheaper food like Burger King down the road! I'm only sitting here because the chair and table are empty at the moment!"
I think my analogy works better. Stores guilt you into buying there stuff by the mantra "Buy from us because you must" Not buy from us because we have better prices than online.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think my analogy works better. Stores guilt you into buying there stuff by the mantra "Buy from us because you must" Not buy from us because we have better prices than online.
You might like it better, but it is inaccurate. Observe.
The scenario begins with you walking into a service orientated retail establishment (The game shop or restaurant). You then proceed to daintily take out the product which is sold directly by that establishment (namely gaming models, or food). The owner approaches you, and asks why you have not purchased the aforementioned product in his establishment, as it specialises in selling that product (gaming models or food). You then retort that the owner is in competition with another establishment located elsewhere for that type of good (an online store or a fast food joint). You prissily inform him that he needs to be offering more things to obtain your custom.
The owner scratches his head and replies that he has great customer service that you would not receive in the other establishment. He also offers a pleasant environment for enjoying the product that the competition does not (be it nice gaming tables, or a well lit romantic set of tables with silver cutlery). He says that this justifies the price differential.
You then reply that this is quite simply not good enough and inform him that he must do better to gain your custom. You sit down on a chair, unwrap your merchandise (be it gaming models or a Burger King), begin to utilise his resources (his table with terrain, or the ketchup and wide variety of condiments), and are shocked when he turfs you out.
Not really, because offering a free place to eat isn't part of a restaurants requirements, like a gamestore. But games stores if they want to be considered must offer To survive. But they also must make us want to buy your product.
Also, burger King and a Fourstar are not the same. But all GO product is no matter where I get it. Ando what is the point of good customer service if I know I want what I want.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Not really, because offering a free place to eat isn't part of a restaurants requirements, like a gamestore.
Nope. A game store provides a free place to play for its customers. They keep a generally open store front to try and lure people in, but make no mistake about it, the owner does not rent a store purely to provide square footage for teenagers to occupy at will. He does it to make money.
There will be times or reasons when a shop owner chooses not to make a big deal about it ( e.g. you're there with five people who just spent a hundred dollars on either models or a very expensive bottle of wine) but you have absolutely no claim or right to be in his shop if you have no interest in utilising it for the purpose it exists (to buy models or food).
Ketara wrote: The scenario begins with you walking into a service orientated retail establishment (The game shop or restaurant). You then proceed to daintily take out the product which is sold directly by that establishment (namely gaming models, or food). The owner approaches you, and asks why you have not purchased the aforementioned product in his establishment, as it specialises in selling that product (gaming models or food). You then retort that the owner is in competition with another establishment located elsewhere for that type of good (an online store or a fast food joint). You prissily inform him that he needs to be offering more things to obtain your custom.
This analogy only holds water if you buy the minis you are going to game with every time you walk into the store.
Otherwise, they're two very different situations that are only superficially similar on the surface. Yes, they're both selling you something and both offering you a table to facilitate the appropriate consumption of that 'something'... Except for the restaurant that's a 1:1 deal. You buy something, and then you eat it. You don't buy something, take it home, and then bring it back in every two weeks to sit at their tables and nibble a bit.
Da Boss wrote: I gotta say I think if you're going to take up free table space in a store, you should buy something there. It just seems like common courtesy.
I wouldn't expect you to buy EVERYTHING there though. I suppose the odd blister or boxed set is okay.
Basically this. The idea of 'pay where you play' isn't about spending all of your hobby money there, just that if you do decide to take up a table and have a game and they're not charging for table time, buy something there.
This is why I like my FLGS, as they serve hot food. Since we start gaming at about 11am, it's easy to order a burger and chips, and a few drinks, while having a game. That along covers more for them than they'd get away with charging for table time.
This analogy only holds water if you buy the minis you are going to game with every time you walk into the store.
Otherwise, they're two very different situations that are only superficially similar on the surface. Yes, they're both selling you something and both offering you a table to facilitate the appropriate consumption of that 'something'... Except for the restaurant that's a 1:1 deal. You buy something, and then you eat it. You don't buy something, take it home, and then bring it back in every two weeks to sit at their tables and nibble a bit.
There is such a thing as taking an analogy too deep. You are correct that the same product is not utilised every single time in one situation but is in the other. It would also be equally correct that to state that one of the products is consumed whereas the other is used to play games with. Or that selling one of those products requires a food preparation license whilst the other does not.
All of these would be correct things to observe, but none of them detract from the points made by the analogy. The fact that the molecular nature of the product is different in the two cases, and that the usages to which that product is physically put is different does not any way remove from the wider similarities being advanced. It is to be expected that there are differences between the two things, as they are not the same identical thing.
But then again, if they were, it wouldn't really be an analogy.
Ketara wrote: Nope. A game store provides a free place to play for its customers.
And this, I think, is the crux of the disagreement on this issue.
What you see as a freebie that the store is offering to its customers, others see as a sales tool that is designed to encourage people to become customers. It's ultimately no different to handing out free vouchers, or taking out a TV ad.
Claiming your voucher freebie, or watching that ad on TV doesn't oblige you to buy something from the store. The store just hopes that it will encourage you to do so.
Ultimately, of course, what is important is how the store owner views that gaming space. If he sees it as a sales tool, then he needs to make a value judgement as to whether or not that tool is paying for itself, and has no reason for complaint if people use it without buying. If he wants to offer it instead as a perk for his paying customers, that's totally fine... but in that case, this needs to be made clear to everyone that walks in the door. Otherwise, you get the disconnect we're seeing here.
RiTides wrote: I think the key term here is "FLGS". I support local stores as often as I can, but if a store owner is unfriendly / unreasonable / etc, it doesn't make sense to pay massively more than you could otherwise to support them. Unfortunately, our local store has fallen into the "UFLGS" category for some time, and it's surrounded by other high quality stores, to boot.
...
but customer relations is just that, a relationship, and the store owner should be catering to what the local playerbase wants to buy / play, who then in turn should support their store when possible.
Nod. My "Local" store is pretty much just a UFLGS. The last time I went in there, the owner manually marked up several cans of spray that I was buying buy three bucks each. They were tagged at the old price, and still at that on his system, meaning they were bought for the old wholesale price, etc. Aside from the fact that this is actually illegal where I live, it also pretty solidly marked the last time I'll go there. He's not especially convenient to get to, and at this point I'll go to larger inconvenience just to not buy from him, since he's an entitled witch.
The funny thing is that I actually have great (customer service) relationships with three other "FLGS" - one in Cardiff (internationally), and two in Sydney (interstate). We pay federal tax for local purchases either way, so it's not like a US situation of buying from out of state saving money. But it's amusing to me that the three places I buy most of my stuff (that's not direct from Manufacturer) are actually FLGS places who also sell online, and are much more friendly (and cheaper) than the local douchebags. I'm sure some FLGS in my city are run by nice people, and Nic at Eureka is a great guy, but at least three of the local stores fail that test quite badly.
dameanone wrote: In our service driven economy you don't ask for discounts where you can?
Most people won't ask for a discount, no.
If you want my business, put the actual price you want me to pay on your goods. If the price you will accept is lower than your ticket price, then you should have put that lower price on there to start with. Don't waste my time with price negotiations.
It depends what you're buying and where you're buying it. Without being a directed insult, if you're going into JB, Harveys or The Good Guys and paying sticker price on a Television, all I can say is "more fool you". Ticket price for larger items have "negotiation" built into them on several levels, from manufacturer RRP to ticket price to what they'll actually "discount" it to quite happily. Of course, when they can get full ticket or even manufacturer price for it, they're happy to. I occasionally batch-buy even small electronics for my work and if I'm buying 2 or 4 digital cameras you bet that when I ask "What can you do if I buy 4 of these?" they find that they can do something worthwhile.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Am I the only one who finds it odd that FLGS are one of the only places that uses free services I can get at home or somewhere else as a way to guilt you into buying them?
What other service does the same. A restaurant doesn't try to compel me to buy there because their dining area is nice, they do ito by offering good food with reasonable prices.
A more accurate analogy would be you walking into a four star restaurant with a Burger King you bought outside, and then complaining when the restaurant owner tells you to buy some food there. "Honestly man, just because you have a nice dining area and great waiters is no reason for me to buy food here! You need to do cheaper food like Burger King down the road! I'm only sitting here because the chair and table are empty at the moment!"
The problem with restaurant analogies is there is a large disconnect between buying a gaming product and then using it which doesn't exist in a restaurant. You don't buy food from a restaurant and then come back weeks, months or maybe even years later to eat it. You don't buy food from a restaurant and then go online to buy more stuff to supplement the meal because the restaurant didn't stock all the food you wanted to eat. You don't buy food, take it home for a few weeks to assemble it, leave it on the shelf for a few months and then come back to the store to eat it.
I think gaming tables in stores are more akin to pool tables in pubs, but even that's not a great analogy. It's probably somewhere in between.
That's why I try and avoid using analogies or drawing comparisons with other common retail practices because I can't think of any that genuinely are analogous.
It really strikes me as odd that more stores don't actually look at charging for gaming space (and subsequently, providing gaming space which is worth paying for).
I bowl, golf, shoot pool, go to the target range, play a bit of tennis... I pay to play for those quite often. Most also sell the materials to play with. But they are generally worth paying for.
The bar of making it worthwhile is a bit higher, as you have to be able to overcome various free options - but I really don't see it as a hard sell.
1) Order from the store, hope what I want is in stock with the distributor, hope that my shop can order it, hope it arrives (I've ordered things and they've never shown up), hope that I get told that it arrived so it doesn't go to someone else (I've found at least 2-3 things I've ordered just placed out on the shelf when I was never even told it came in), and last but not least pay basically full retail because of a tiny discount and sales tax
Heh.
The store that I was bitching about earlier does just this - if you order something in, he puts it on the shelf when it comes in. If it's sold before you get there, he figures he'll just order it again and he got an extra sale out of it. I ordered a couple hundred dollars of Reaper stuff and he did this to me, and I've seen him do it to people who have ordered whole FoW armies. What he didn't manage to see was that when I came in (all of 2? 3? days later) and he told me this, I only bothered to buy about 50% of what I'd ordered since he never bothered to keep track of what I'd ordered personally and just out it all out, and decided never to order anything via him again. This was long before the Spray can situation, and fairly early after he opened up.
Probably worth mentioning that I never gamed in store, aside from one infinity demo, and never had any interest in doing so. I had the opinion that if it cost about the same as mail ordering, including postage (and we don't have 30 or 40% options here) then I'd happily support the local guy, just because - and without any interest in his tables. After a few months when I told him how much I sometimes spend and what he thought about matching online prices he told me that he'd be willing to look at it with a minimum order of $500, because for any less it wouldn't be worth his time to physically taking the time to order it - and quoted me taking an hour or at least half an hour to order $500 worth of product from his suppliers. Which amused me since I can order things quite easily myself without it taking nearly that long.
insaniak wrote: Ultimately, of course, what is important is how the store owner views that gaming space. If he sees it as a sales tool, then he needs to make a value judgement as to whether or not that tool is paying for itself, and has no reason for complaint if people use it without buying. If he wants to offer it instead as a perk for his paying customers, that's totally fine... but in that case, this needs to be made clear to everyone that walks in the door. Otherwise, you get the disconnect we're seeing here.
Yep, I agree. Even if I don't feel compelled to buy from a store because I use the tables, I will buy there out of convenience because I'm already there. If I need something and remember that I need it I'll buy it in the store because I'm already there (which I might not be if it weren't for the tables). If I need a paint I'll buy a paint because it's more convenient than going home and ordering it online. If I'm hungry/thirsty and the store sells food/drinks I'll buy the food/drinks.
Sean_OBrien wrote: It really strikes me as odd that more stores don't actually look at charging for gaming space (and subsequently, providing gaming space which is worth paying for).
I bowl, golf, shoot pool, go to the target range, play a bit of tennis... I pay to play for those quite often. Most also sell the materials to play with. But they are generally worth paying for.
The bar of making it worthwhile is a bit higher, as you have to be able to overcome various free options - but I really don't see it as a hard sell.
I think it depends a lot on your locale and the local gamer mores. I'd pay to go to a club. If I gamed in a store regularly, I'd buy most of my new products there (which is what I did in the past).
Sergeant Horse wrote: Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.
I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt
I'm pretty sure people do. But then, what do I know, I only see it on a daily basis.
You do? How does this guilt manifest itself? Are you sure it's not just social awkwardness? Or people just not wanting to talk to you? People might feel no guilt at playing at a store they don't buy from, it doesn't mean they want to have to be confronted about it by a store owner.
At a guess, I'd suggest it's the people who game there regularly, always have the latest & greatest GW model, etc, and tend to only buy ever a White Dwarf or a pot of paint when they're in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hotsauceman1 wrote: Not really, because offering a free place to eat isn't part of a restaurants requirements, like a gamestore. But games stores if they want to be considered must offer To survive. But they also must make us want to buy your product.
Also, burger King and a Fourstar are not the same. But all GO product is no matter where I get it. Ando what is the point of good customer service if I know I want what I want.
For you there might be no difference. For me, I'll go out of my way to buy or not buy from places based on the quality of their customer service. I'm a pretty knowledgeable customer, as are most of us here - so it doesn't even take much more than being reasonable, polite and efficient.
Azazelx wrote: The store that I was bitching about earlier does just this - if you order something in, he puts it on the shelf when it comes in. If it's sold before you get there, he figures he'll just order it again and he got an extra sale out of it. I ordered a couple hundred dollars of Reaper stuff and he did this to me, and I've seen him do it to people who have ordered whole FoW armies. What he didn't manage to see was that when I came in (all of 2? 3? days later) and he told me this, I only bothered to buy about 50% of what I'd ordered since he never bothered to keep track of what I'd ordered personally and just out it all out, and decided never to order anything via him again. This was long before the Spray can situation, and fairly early after he opened up.
Probably worth mentioning that I never gamed in store, aside from one infinity demo, and never had any interest in doing so. I had the opinion that if it cost about the same as mail ordering, including postage (and we don't have 30 or 40% options here) then I'd happily support the local guy, just because - and without any interest in his tables. After a few months when I told him how much I sometimes spend and what he thought about matching online prices he told me that he'd be willing to look at it with a minimum order of $500, because for any less it wouldn't be worth his time to physically taking the time to order it - and quoted me taking an hour or at least half an hour to order $500 worth of product from his suppliers. Which amused me since I can order things quite easily myself without it taking nearly that long.
It's pretty funny that he could be that clueless, but this is why shops go out of business. Since I don't game in store, I don't bother giving local guys "right of first refusal" any more. Sure, I'll check their clearance bins and Black Friday sales, but my favorite is the inevitable Going Out of Business Sale. .
If you go to the FLGS regularly, and use the tables that they provide, you should spend money there. If it really is an UFLGS then that sucks; but that doesn't mean true FLGS do not deserve your money.
Geemoney wrote: If you go to the FLGS regularly, and use the tables that they provide, you should spend money there. If it really is an UFLGS then that sucks; but that doesn't mean true FLGS do not deserve your money.
Sure, I never claimed that - and in the past when I used to game in store I bought most of my stuff from that same store. But simply existing locally doesn't somehow entitle a store to my custom. (Which is what this particular guy's opinion was). Nevermind that I'd been almost exclusively been buying online and playing at home for years before he happened to open up locally. Like I said, though - I support several F(L)GS - they're just not my local ones.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The most successful long-term gaming stores I've seen had ONE 4'x8' table that served multiple purposes, with folding tables for card gaming nights.
The stores with more table space than product shelving? Out of business within a year.
If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.
Seeing your location, I have to ask if you were familiar with Mercenary Market.
The harsh truth is a small business or sole trader operating from a rented store can't hope to compete with the prices of an online store that has the advantages of:
1) Not needing a premises, except for a storage facility.
2) Being able to order in bulk with all the cost savings that come with that, and being able to net more buyers as a result.
3) Lower staff overheads
3) Can close or relocate fairly readily with no major losses
I think the future for FLGS's is be to band together for the purposes of ordering. Combine their orders. That would at least enable them to get kits at the same prices as online stores. Easier said than done, I know, but its a good idea in theory at least.
My local FLGS has probably half it's floorspace for WH40k/Fantasy, but most of the business through the doors is MTG. I was buying everything including my actual 40k models from them to show support and keep them around. The discount was $5 off if you spent at least $50 on GWS, so really something like <10%. And I never game there.
They just moved to a flat 5% of everything in the store (MTG, board games, GWS, etc) as a store reward deal. So at this point I can no longer justify getting my GWS stuff there at 5% discount when I can get 20% discount online. I appreciate the FLGS is there when I need a brush or a certain paint right now and can't wait, but I really only buy GWS from them. (or my weekly White Dwarf for that matter)
This is why I like my FLGS, as they serve hot food. Since we start gaming at about 11am, it's easy to order a burger and chips, and a few drinks, while having a game. That along covers more for them than they'd get away with charging for table time.
Man thats cool. I always thought a small cafe/food place attached to a FLGS would do well. The amount of food ordered in regularly is staggering.
This is why I like my FLGS, as they serve hot food. Since we start gaming at about 11am, it's easy to order a burger and chips, and a few drinks, while having a game. That along covers more for them than they'd get away with charging for table time.
Man thats cool. I always thought a small cafe/food place attached to a FLGS would do well. The amount of food ordered in regularly is staggering.
The big issue with that is that (at least here) you need a special license to serve food, which is more money. There's one store that is large enough to have like a small little cafe kind of area and either they make food or order catering, but most shops don't do it because of the extra overhead. I think it's a brilliant idea though. Of course, my FLGS is located in a mall so it's not really worth it for him to also have hot food since you just walk 10 minutes down the mall to the food court.
Also, most game shops tend to set up shop in an area with places to eat for precisely those reasons
I could be wrong but I think most game stores wouldn't be well served by having hot food anyway, I don't imagine there'd be enough gamers regularly enough to justify the costs of a kitchen.
This is why I like my FLGS, as they serve hot food. Since we start gaming at about 11am, it's easy to order a burger and chips, and a few drinks, while having a game. That along covers more for them than they'd get away with charging for table time.
Man thats cool. I always thought a small cafe/food place attached to a FLGS would do well. The amount of food ordered in regularly is staggering.
I've always thought that the best business model for a FLGS would be one akin to a movie theater or gas station. The margins on movie tickets and gasoline are small, the money is made from concessions and the convenience store, that's where the margins are high. There's a reason more gas stations are incorporating fast food and order screens at the pump and that more movie theaters are expanding their concession fare.
I think running a game store successfully is only going to get harder. For me personally, I rarely go to the FLGS near me or the GW store and it's not because they aren't nice stores but these days between kickstarters and companies/sculptors with their own webstores there isn't much of a need for me to go to the store to get what I want. The internet has done a really good job of making the middleman irrelevent and that puts a FLGS in a tough spot. Of course this is all anecdotal. If I had more hobby time I'd need more hobby supplies more often and would be more interested in gaming and would therefore go to the FLGS more often and spend more money there.
As I said my biggest issue is that because the models tend to be expensive (not even talking GW here as I don't play 40k anymnore), saving $75 on an order is a huge deal when the alternative is saving barely $10 because of sales tax and a small discount. It would be unreasonable to expect the same 30% discount, and of course the store has to charge sales tax because government, but that factors in determining what I buy from the store and what I buy online.
My general buying style is as I said previously: I buy small things and the occasional unit box at the store; more than that or if I'm making a large order and I'll order it online every time to save the most money on an already-expensive purchase. Or if I need things the store can't easily get (specific paints from a range they don't carry, for example) I'll order those online as well.
I like browsing and looking at tangible stuff, and I'm always wary about options disappearing, so I'll try and by in person where I can (whether that's from a game store or convention).
The only time I'll resort to online is if it's something I can't get/can't order in, or it's something I probably wouldn't buy at local prices anyway but is on sale online.
Thankfully, there's a couple of decent FLGS's near my work with a good stock, and something like 5 conventions a year.
Only one FLGS has gaming space and hosts a few tournaments I attend, but I always make sure to try to buy something when I'm in (be it sodas or blister packs or paint) since I'm not paying for the table.
I don't have a friendly local gaming store, but I do have a couple of friendly local model stores. (well, local is relative. They're both on the same street... Over fifty miles away) I try to buy from them when possible. It helps that I'm not buying GW models at GW prices, which they don't stock anyway. (not with a GW shop a few dozen yards away) It doesn't help that most of what I buy (relevant to my gaming interests) is an occasional box of 1/72 hard styrene WWII minis, hidden among the few boxes of 15mms, and that I've, ah... learned to be cautious about ordering through them.
That said, I was in the aforementioned GW yesterday, and despite the fact I usually buy only a few cheap second-hand GW minis off ebay, and not for their games, I walked out with one of those £13.50 plastic characters. Partly because I think I suffered some kind of episode, but also because the manager is pretty great. Remembers me although I go in once in a blue moon to buy a pot of paint or a BL book, and took the time to explain some things about End Times and show off some of the models. If there were any FLGSs in the vicinity, they could use a few guys half as good as him.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The most successful long-term gaming stores I've seen had ONE 4'x8' table that served multiple purposes, with folding tables for card gaming nights.
The stores with more table space than product shelving? Out of business within a year.
If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.
Seeing your location, I have to ask if you were familiar with Mercenary Market.
That was merely the latest to go belly up:
- GW LA Bunker
- Pair a Dice Games (nicest clubhouse I've ever seen)
and more, and more in the area.
Lots of gaming space at MM, though, big space, maybe 25% actual retail? Thin stock, too.
I think that place was owned by ex-NFL punter Kris Kluwe. Maybe after he lost his punting gig and didn't get a new one he decided to consolidate his finances into something a bit less risky.
I think that place was owned by ex-NFL punter Kris Kluwe. Maybe after he lost his punting gig and didn't get a new one he decided to consolidate his finances into something a bit less risky.
Yup. Mercenary Market had their "Going out of Business" clearance sale back in April, 2014 - nearly a year ago. I managed to snag a Super Dungeon Explore expansion at good discount.
It was. Not sure what he's up to right now. Seems like he'd make a great off-color commentator, but he kinda burned some bridges in the NFL when he left...
thegreatchimp wrote: The harsh truth is a small business or sole trader operating from a rented store can't hope to compete with the prices of an online store that has the advantages of:
And yet the largest and most popular webstores have almost always been businesses that also had physical stores...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I could be wrong but I think most game stores wouldn't be well served by having hot food anyway, I don't imagine there'd be enough gamers regularly enough to justify the costs of a kitchen.
The store I worked at had hot food, but it was just frozen stuff that could be chucked in the microwave, like those ghastly roast-beef-and-gravy rolls that used to exist solely in the dodgier service stations... Sold them by the truckload.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I could be wrong but I think most game stores wouldn't be well served by having hot food anyway, I don't imagine there'd be enough gamers regularly enough to justify the costs of a kitchen.
The store I worked at had hot food, but it was just frozen stuff that could be chucked in the microwave, like those ghastly roast-beef-and-gravy rolls that used to exist solely in the dodgier service stations... Sold them by the truckload.
What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.
You mean "if you want to commit financial suicide, the less table space, the better". If you don't have lots of gaming space available then why is anyone going to come into your store? The only way a physical retail store can even attempt to compete with online stores (which offer the same products at a cheaper price) is by hosting a community that gets people into the store and gives them a sense of obligation to make charity donations in return. And you can't do that without gaming space.
Peregrine wrote: If you don't have lots of gaming space available then why is anyone going to come into your store?
Some people prefer to see what they're buying. And some don't want to wait for it to come in the mail.
The only way a physical retail store can even attempt to compete with online stores (which offer the same products at a cheaper price) is by hosting a community that gets people into the store ...
Or by offering the same product at the same price. Or a slightly higher price that is balanced out by the 'have it now' factor.
Which is easier to do if you're not paying a whole bunch of rent on a whopping great floor space for tables.
insaniak wrote: Some people prefer to see what they're buying.
But how many people are in this group, and willing to pay extra for it? I can understand wanting to check your finecast model before buying it, but that's a special case. Most of the time you really aren't going to be getting much information out of looking at the box on the shelf instead of the catalog pictures online.
And some don't want to wait for it to come in the mail.
Which is a valid point, if you're talking about a store that you're already visiting for their gaming space. There's a lot of value in being able to pick up a new model/paint/whatever and have it immediately, as long as it's actually immediate. If you aren't already going to the store you have to make a special trip out there once you decide you want something, and that means waiting and having to pay extra for gas to get there and back on top of the higher retail store prices. I guess in some situations that's still adding a bit of value, but how often is that going to be enough to generate sales and pay your rent?
Or by offering the same product at the same price.
How often can a physical retail store do this? The retail store almost inevitably has higher expenses than an online store, so how are they matching the online store's prices without either losing money or making so little profit that they're better off running a different business instead?
Which is easier to do if you're not paying a whole bunch of rent on a whopping great floor space for tables.
And this is GW's kind of thinking: take out most of the reasons to visit the store, and hope that you save enough money to still make a profit on your greatly reduced pool of customers. That might work in places where there's only one physical store within reasonable driving distance, but if you have nearby competition with gaming space (very common in the US) you've just committed financial suicide and sent all of your customers elsewhere.
Also, rent isn't nearly as simple as that. Yeah, you can have a smaller store if you don't have the tables, but since you no longer have the best reason for people to come into your store you probably need to put your store in a better location with higher rent. Stores with lots of gaming space can get away with renting the back corner of a random strip mall because people are willing to make a little extra effort to go find them. But if there's no reason to go to your store besides buying the thing you want you'd better have it in a really convenient location. And you'll probably need a high-traffic area so that you can offset the customers you lost by removing your gaming space with random people walking in and starting a new hobby.
Peregrine wrote: But how many people are in this group, and willing to pay extra for it? I can understand wanting to check your finecast model before buying it, but that's a special case. Most of the time you really aren't going to be getting much information out of looking at the box on the shelf instead of the catalog pictures online.
Quite a lot, actually. It's not just about the information on the box, but about the thing you're buying being a tangible 'thing'. Or simply about proving that the thing that you're paying for actually exists, and you're not just throwing your money away into the ether.
Which is a valid point, if you're talking about a store that you're already visiting for their gaming space. There's a lot of value in being able to pick up a new model/paint/whatever and have it immediately, as long as it's actually immediate. If you aren't already going to the store you have to make a special trip out there once you decide you want something, and that means waiting and having to pay extra for gas to get there and back on top of the higher retail store prices. I guess in some situations that's still adding a bit of value, but how often is that going to be enough to generate sales and pay your rent?
You seem to be assuming that people are hiking for 5 hours, uphill in a blizzard to get to their gaming stores...
That's not always the case.
How often can a physical retail store do this?
The store here in Oz that I buy from when I buy stuff from Oz has been doing it for more than 20 years now. I was buying from them by mail order before the internet was even a thing. When internet shopping started to become a thing they set up a webstore offering discounts accross the board, and they've remained competitive, and one of Oz's biggest independant games retailers, for that entire time.
The idea that physical stores can't compete with the online traders is a myth. They can. Many just choose not to.
Peregrine wrote: If you don't have lots of gaming space available then why is anyone going to come into your store?
Some people prefer to see what they're buying. And some don't want to wait for it to come in the mail.
But waiting for the store to order it is fine? I get what you're saying, and I agree to an extent (I'm more likely to immediately buy things that are available than order it online, even with a discount) but if I have to order it from the store anyways, why not just order it online, save more money, probably get it faster and not have to make another trip down?
For example, my FLGS doesn't have a lot of Warmachine stock, it's like a rack or two and some boxes on a shelf (mostly Battleboxes). So 99.9% of anything I want, I have to ask the owner to order it, he has to check the distributor and hope it's in stock (which often enough it "shows 0 in stock"), then I have to hope he actually gets it and saves it for me lest someone else see it and buy it.
In that circumstance, ordering online saves me money and time.
I wouldn't think so. If I'm going to a store that carries the range that I'm wanting to buy, I expect them to have what I want, unless it's something really obscure or a particularly large quantity. If they don't, I don't generally bother going back.
What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...
Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.
Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines.
Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.
Something actually approaching on topic: I will say this... it irks the gak out of me when i pre-order something and i don't get it on release day. It's rare, but it does happen.
What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...
Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.
Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines.
Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.
It might be a Queensland thing. In NSW, I manage to find burritos fething everywhere. Quality is the main issue - some people just can't fething make them properly.
insaniak wrote: It's not just about the information on the box, but about the thing you're buying being a tangible 'thing'. Or simply about proving that the thing that you're paying for actually exists, and you're not just throwing your money away into the ether.
I don't understand this at all. It might have been a valid point back in 1995, before online shopping was common, but it's 2015 and buying stuff online is normal. I'm sure there are still a few old people who don't like the internet, but I don't see how there can be enough of them in an area to support a store. And I certainly don't see how buying models online is any different from buying books/computer parts/pizza/whatever online, things most of us take for granted in 2015.
As an example, just look at how amazon killed the physical bookstore industry. It turns out that once you establish that online shopping isn't a scam most customers don't care about going into a store and looking at the book they're about to buy, they just want the cheapest possible price. And so a lot of stores went out of business, what was left mostly consolidated into a few major chains, and only a few local bookstores still cling to life by providing exceptional service and focusing on the used book market (which isn't as easy to do online).
You seem to be assuming that people are hiking for 5 hours, uphill in a blizzard to get to their gaming stores...
No, I'm just assuming average travel times in the US. Let's say it's about 15 miles to the store, a pretty reasonable average for specialized retail. That's at least 45 minutes of time and ~$3-4 of gas, and not exactly ideal for an impulse buy. If I decide right now that I want a new model kit I can either order it tonight and get it early next week, or I can waste time and money getting it this weekend. Is it really worth it to pay an extra 20% or more to get something a day or two early? Maybe. Can you sustain a business with just that kind of purchase? I doubt it.
The store here in Oz that I buy from when I buy stuff from Oz has been doing it for more than 20 years now. I was buying from them by mail order before the internet was even a thing. When internet shopping started to become a thing they set up a webstore offering discounts accross the board, and they've remained competitive, and one of Oz's biggest independant games retailers, for that entire time.
So, when you say they "remain competitive", do you mean that their prices are higher but you're willing to pay them, or that their prices are equal to online stores?
The idea that physical stores can't compete with the online traders is a myth. They can. Many just choose not to.
It's not a myth at all, it's just common sense. The physical store has higher expenses, so the online store can sell at a much lower price without losing money (or making so little profit that it's not worth staying in business). And the online store can very likely afford to cut their prices even lower and make up for a narrower profit margin with a higher sales volume, since they're selling to customers across a large geographical area instead of the relatively small number of potential customers within easy driving distance. The best the physical store can do is offer a modest discount and make up the difference with better service and a good community, and that means having gaming space.
Peregrine wrote: I don't understand this at all. It might have been a valid point back in 1995, before online shopping was common, but it's 2015 and buying stuff online is normal.
For those who buy online.
There are an awful lot of people who don't.
No, I'm just assuming average travel times in the US. Let's say it's about 15 miles to the store, a pretty reasonable average for specialized retail. That's at least 45 minutes of time ...
If it takes you 45 minutes to drive 15 miles, I would recommend living somewhere else.
If I decide right now that I want a new model kit I can either order it tonight and get it early next week, or I can waste time and money getting it this weekend.
Or stop in to the store on your way home from work. Or when you're going past on your way to the supermarket. Or whatever.
Not everyone games store is tucked away in Diagon Alley.
Is it really worth it to pay an extra 20% or more to get something a day or two early?
That would be up to the individual, of course. To some, yes, it's worth paying a little extra to know that when they hand over their cash they will immediately have what they wanted, rather than to order online, find out in two or three days time that the product they ordered isn't actually in stock, and then wait a week or more while the store orders another one.
Can you sustain a business with just that kind of purchase?
The continued existence of brick and mortar stores would seem to suggest that you can.
So, when you say they "remain competitive", do you mean that their prices are higher but you're willing to pay them, or that their prices are equal to online stores?
Their prices are equivalent to any of the other Australian discounters.
It's not a myth at all, it's just common sense.
Except stores are doing it, and have been for decades.
Sure, it might be harder. But it's clearly not impossible, because it's happening.
The best the physical store can do is offer a modest discount and make up the difference with better service and a good community, and that means having gaming space.
...assuming you disregard people's other reasons for choosing to buy from a physical store instead of online...
Peregrine wrote: But how many people are in this group, and willing to pay extra for it? I can understand wanting to check your finecast model before buying it, but that's a special case. Most of the time you really aren't going to be getting much information out of looking at the box on the shelf instead of the catalog pictures online.
Quite a lot, actually. It's not just about the information on the box, but about the thing you're buying being a tangible 'thing'. Or simply about proving that the thing that you're paying for actually exists, and you're not just throwing your money away into the ether.
By the same token, it's also a lot easier to spend "virtual" money in your account or on your CC then physically part with cold, hard cash.
The store here in Oz that I buy from when I buy stuff from Oz has been doing it for more than 20 years now. I was buying from them by mail order before the internet was even a thing. When internet shopping started to become a thing they set up a webstore offering discounts accross the board, and they've remained competitive, and one of Oz's biggest independant games retailers, for that entire time.
Who are they? If they're competitive on price and shipping, I'm more than happy to support an Australian store rather than UK ones. Most seem to want an additional 25-50% over the exchange rate and then pay postage on top of that.
It might be a Queensland thing. In NSW, I manage to find burritos fething everywhere. Quality is the main issue - some people just can't fething make them properly.
Kebabs, mate. Proper Turkish ones. Not rubbish roadside 3am ones or loaf-meat or Gyros-wannabes in pide bread.
Again, can be very hard to find. Luckily I have 2-3 great locations!
An awful lot in total numbers maybe, but in percentages? And are there enough in a given area that they can support a store that makes no effort to market to the people who aren't stuck in 1995?
And again, look at what amazon has done to the bookstore industry. The independent local bookstore is pretty much dead, because it turns out that "people who hate online shopping" isn't enough when the online discount store takes most of the customers away.
If it takes you 45 minutes to drive 15 miles, I would recommend living somewhere else.
I mean 45 minutes total, not each way. At least 15-20 minutes each way, plus some time in the store. Potentially more, depending on traffic, how much you obey speed limits, etc. And this is pretty typical for specialized retail stores. I live fairly close to at least two major malls and it would take me at least 30 minutes of driving time in good traffic just to drive to and from the closest electronics store, decent clothing store, etc. Other places would have been 20-30 minutes each way, and these were all pretty nice places to live. The US is just spread out like that.
Or stop in to the store on your way home from work. Or when you're going past on your way to the supermarket. Or whatever.
And in the US it just doesn't work like that very often. Sure, some people are lucky enough to have a game store on their way to/from something else, but that's pretty rare. Grocery stores are all over the place, and you probably aren't more than 5-10 minutes from one unless you live in the middle of nowhere. Game stores are much rarer, and much more spread out. For example, I have 5ish game stores in a ~30 mile radius, and three different grocery stores within walking distance. So it's extremely unlikely that a game store would be on that route, and even if it was I might not be going out to buy food for a few days and the online order won't be much slower.
That would be up to the individual, of course. To some, yes, it's worth paying a little extra to know that when they hand over their cash they will immediately have what they wanted, rather than to order online, find out in two or three days time that the product they ordered isn't actually in stock, and then wait a week or more while the store orders another one.
This assumes that your hypothetical store has everything you want in stock at all times. In my experience this is not a very good assumption unless you need to buy paint or a "common" GW kit. Given that this hypothetical store is focused enough on obsessive cost cutting to remove their gaming space is it really reasonable to assume that they'll spend a lot of money to maintain a full selection of everything you want to buy? Or is it more likely that they'll have a bunch of MTG packs, a standard GW shelf and paint rack, and maybe the starter sets for a few other games?
The continued existence of brick and mortar stores would seem to suggest that you can.
And most, if not all, of those brick and mortar stores have gaming space available to bring in customers. Every single gaming store I've ever been to in the US has had at least a decent amount of gaming space. And I can't imagine any of them staying in business if they decided to remove it.
Their prices are equivalent to any of the other Australian discounters.
Ok, maybe this is just something odd about the Australian market and all of your weird GW-imposed price and sales rules. In the US I have never seen a physical store that matches the discount available online, and anecdotal evidence from other people suggests it's the same elsewhere. The closest you can get is stores that give a discount that is smaller, but enough to make up for not paying shipping costs on small orders (paint, single 28mm models, etc) where flat-rate shipping from online sellers is the highest percentage of the price.
Except stores are doing it, and have been for decades.
Again, maybe this is just an Australian thing? Maybe your online discounters just can't get their stock cheap enough to offer good discounts, or the market isn't competitive enough to drive online store prices down and they just take the extra profit while selling at full physical store prices?
...assuming you disregard people's other reasons for choosing to buy from a physical store instead of online...
I'm not disregarding them, I'm objecting to the claim that there are enough of these people who hate online shopping for a store with no gaming space to be successful, especially in areas where other stores do have gaming space.
An awful lot in total numbers maybe, but in percentages? And are there enough in a given area that they can support a store that makes no effort to market to the people who aren't stuck in 1995?
Well we know at least 42% of GW's sales come from their stores, 13 from mail order, 9% from FW and BL, the remaining 36% is independents of which we don't know how many sales are online or not. So I'd say a safe bet would be to say over half GW's sales are in stores rather than online. How much over half is slightly harder to guess, I'd say if you ignored FW which you can only buy online anyway, I'd think it would be around the 75% mark.
I'd say it's odd even for Australia. None of the stores near me have ever matched online prices, but they're usually within a couple of %, so only a few dollars different on a $100 purchase which is small enough for me to not really care unless it's a bulk purchase of several hundred dollars. On such bulk purchases my FLGS used to give me bigger discounts which further closed the gap between online and in store purchases, but I haven't done a bulk purchase in years and that FLGS is closed now, I don't know how typical that was.
When I wanted an imperial knight (40k), I'd buy it from FLGS. When I wanted an entire Vampire Counts army, Bartertown. 1-2 things? Store. Huge investment? Online.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Well we know at least 42% of GW's sales come from their stores, 13 from mail order, 9% from FW and BL, the remaining 36% is independents of which we don't know how many sales are online or not. So I'd say a safe bet would be to say over half GW's sales are in stores rather than online. How much over half is slightly harder to guess, I'd say if you ignored FW which you can only buy online anyway, I'd think it would be around the 75% mark.
Yeah, but remember, we're talking about a hypothetical store with no gaming space available. GW's own stores might be doing their best to cut gaming space down to the bare minimum, but they still have it and can benefit from the customers it brings in.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Well we know at least 42% of GW's sales come from their stores, 13 from mail order, 9% from FW and BL, the remaining 36% is independents of which we don't know how many sales are online or not. So I'd say a safe bet would be to say over half GW's sales are in stores rather than online. How much over half is slightly harder to guess, I'd say if you ignored FW which you can only buy online anyway, I'd think it would be around the 75% mark.
Yeah, but remember, we're talking about a hypothetical store with no gaming space available. GW's own stores might be doing their best to cut gaming space down to the bare minimum, but they still have it and can benefit from the customers it brings in.
I didn't realise we were talking about that hypothetical Honestly I still think it would probably be more than half. A lot of GW customers are kids who are less likely to buy online and even amongst adults I'm sure there's plenty that prefer walking in to a physical store and buying a physical product. If they didn't then a lot of stores would be closed, not just hobby stores. You talk about the independent local bookstore being "pretty much dead" because of Amazon, yet a lot of those stores still exist, maybe not as many as there were 20 years ago, but enough of them are still around to suggest the demand is still there.
Peregrine wrote: And again, look at what amazon has done to the bookstore industry. The independent local bookstore is pretty much dead, because it turns out that "people who hate online shopping" isn't enough when the online discount store takes most of the customers away.
Ignoring for a moment the fact that the book industry and the miniature industry aren't the same, do have know how much of the decline of book stores is due to Amazon, and how much if it is due to the rapid spread of e-readers, tablets and smart phones?
This assumes that your hypothetical store has everything you want in stock at all times.
No, just that they have the item that you're looking for. Which you know, by looking on the shelf. As opposed to the all-too prevalent habit on webstores of listing everything as being in stock when it isn't.
And as I mentioned earlier, I don't go back to a store that doesn't have what I want in stock.
Given that this hypothetical store is focused enough on obsessive cost cutting to remove their gaming space...
Are they? That's a new twist on the discussion.
Being unwilling to pay rent on a store big enough to have gaming tables is not automatically 'obsessive cost cutting'.
...is it really reasonable to assume that they'll spend a lot of money to maintain a full selection of everything you want to buy?
From my experience, most customers won't special order stuff that they want. Hell, most won't even ask if you sell something that they can't find on the shelf. They'll just leave and go elsewhere.
So yes, it's reasonable to expect a store that wants to remain in business for any length of time to actually keep a full range of the product that pays their bills on the shelf.
And most, if not all, of those brick and mortar stores have gaming space available to bring in customers. Every single gaming store I've ever been to in the US has had at least a decent amount of gaming space. And I can't imagine any of them staying in business if they decided to remove it.
And this, I think, is one of those cultural differences between US gamers and just about everyone else. Because the rest of the world largely doesn't play in stores. I can count on one hand the number of stores that I've been into that had more than one or two tables, and quite a few didn't have any tables at all.
Ok, maybe this is just something odd about the Australian market and all of your weird GW-imposed price and sales rules. In the US I have never seen a physical store that matches the discount available online, and anecdotal evidence from other people suggests it's the same elsewhere. The closest you can get is stores that give a discount that is smaller, but enough to make up for not paying shipping costs on small orders (paint, single 28mm models, etc) where flat-rate shipping from online sellers is the highest percentage of the price.
The standard online discount down here has floated around 20-25% for some time. The store I was talking about has a flat 20% off as well.
There have been plenty of other Oz stores I've seen over the years offering 20 or 25% off, although most don't last long. Then again, most games stores don't last long, period.
I'm not disregarding them, I'm objecting to the claim that there are enough of these people who hate online shopping for a store with no gaming space to be successful, especially in areas where other stores do have gaming space.
While it's definitely growing, I think you would be surprised by just how many people still don't shop online.
And most, if not all, of those brick and mortar stores have gaming space available to bring in customers. Every single gaming store I've ever been to in the US has had at least a decent amount of gaming space. And I can't imagine any of them staying in business if they decided to remove it.
And this, I think, is one of those cultural differences between US gamers and just about everyone else. Because the rest of the world largely doesn't play in stores. I can count on one hand the number of stores that I've been into that had more than one or two tables, and quite a few didn't have any tables at all.
Actually I seem to recall someone (Sean_OBrien I think) posting figures suggesting that only a fraction of wargamers game in stores in the USA as well. I think it more depends on specific location rather than country. If you live in a big city, you're liable to have several gaming stores within driving/walking/public transport distance and probably less likely to have a large house that you can host games in. If you live in a more rural area or a small town (and the USA is very spread out, even compared to Australia where most of our population seems to be around a few major cities) then you're less likely to have a game shop within a hop skip and a jump to play at and probably more likely to host games at your house.
To add to this, my rule of thumb is buying bits off ebay and old oopRT stuff on ebay, and then for every 3-4 times I do that, buy a box of what I need from the FGLS (usually tacticals. Mostly paint.)
I don't mind paying extra. The store lets me use their airbrush and play games/attend painting classes.
If I buy a box or two, then I am paying for the enviroment and the store. I could save more (a lot,) but, I feel I am getting a good value.
insaniak wrote: Ignoring for a moment the fact that the book industry and the miniature industry aren't the same, do have know how much of the decline of book stores is due to Amazon, and how much if it is due to the rapid spread of e-readers, tablets and smart phones?
Most of it. The steep decline of the independent local bookstores happened before e-readers/smartphones/etc. It was about people buying paper books online at discounts the local stores couldn't match, not paper customers moving to digital books.
And as I mentioned earlier, I don't go back to a store that doesn't have what I want in stock.
Yeah, I can imagine a store staying in business with people like you as their only customers...
Being unwilling to pay rent on a store big enough to have gaming tables is not automatically 'obsessive cost cutting'.
It is when gaming tables are one of the best ways of getting customers (and potential customers) into the store, and the biggest advantage a physical store has over an online store. It's GW-style shortsighted thinking where you save money today in exchange for damaging your ability to get new sales in the future.
From my experience, most customers won't special order stuff that they want. Hell, most won't even ask if you sell something that they can't find on the shelf. They'll just leave and go elsewhere.
So yes, it's reasonable to expect a store that wants to remain in business for any length of time to actually keep a full range of the product that pays their bills on the shelf.
You took that out of context. I'm not talking about whether or not it's reasonable for you as a customer to want it, I'm just pointing out that the kind of store that cuts out gaming space to save money probably isn't going to waste expensive shelf space on a bunch of niche products. They'll have MTG packs (which pay the bills), GW starter sets, etc, but I can't imagine that kind of store owner deciding to keep a full inventory of stuff with a very low sales volume. I'd expect that kind of diverse inventory at a store where the owner cares about building a long-term community even if the profit numbers on an item aren't ideal.
And this, I think, is one of those cultural differences between US gamers and just about everyone else. Because the rest of the world largely doesn't play in stores. I can count on one hand the number of stores that I've been into that had more than one or two tables, and quite a few didn't have any tables at all.
Maybe it is. I can understand only playing at home or in private clubs, I just can't understand why anyone would do that but regularly go into stores and pay more money for the same stuff they can buy online. If I'm not using a store's gaming tables then why would I pay 90% of retail when I can get the same kit for 80% of retail online? I'd go to the store and buy paint if I needed it asap, but minor paint/glue/etc purchases aren't keeping a store in business.
While it's definitely growing, I think you would be surprised by just how many people still don't shop online.
But how many of them are in the wargaming hobby? I'm sure there are some old people who don't want to learn all that new computer stuff, but what percentage of the total sales in the hobby are they responsible for? I can't imagine it's very much compared to the younger people who have grown up with the internet and online shopping.
Peregrine wrote: And again, look at what amazon has done to the bookstore industry. The independent local bookstore is pretty much dead, because it turns out that "people who hate online shopping" isn't enough when the online discount store takes most of the customers away.
Ignoring for a moment the fact that the book industry and the miniature industry aren't the same, do have know how much of the decline of book stores is due to Amazon, and how much if it is due to the rapid spread of e-readers, tablets and smart phones?
Actually, It's mostly due to the rise and fall of the big book retailers, like Barnes and Noble and Borders. They wiped out the independents. Then bad management and Amazon wiped them out. However, many used book stores survived and continue to survive--by selling used books at or under $4 for paperback, the cheapest a used, physical book goes for on Amazon. E-readers might be contributing to Barnes and Noble's demise, but Borders and most of the dead independents were already gone by the time those became much of a factor.
It's somewhat similar to how GW crushed local competition, then became fat and decadent just in time to miss out on the new golden age of Tabletop Gaming.
Anyway, in my limited experience there needs to be a mix of things at the local store to attract all kinds of customers. For example, Mercenary Market had huge tables but not much shelving, which made them a poor place to shop.
Yes, I go to real stores to buy books or games. I like to have that full experience. I like to be at places rather than looking at sites.
Mercenary Market was roughly 2/3 gaming area. What little stock they had would have taken, at most 1/5 of their square footage. Community or not, you're not going to make sufficient sales with stock that thin.
Speaking of variety, it's funny how Majestix quit comics to be a card & clix shop. There's every chance they will be more profitable than ever.
Peregrine wrote: Yeah, I can imagine a store staying in business with people like you as their only customers...
I'm a little puzzled at this reaction, to be honest.
A store's sole purpose for existing is to sell stuff. If you walk in for something the store supposedly sells, and they don't have it... that's a failure on the part of the store.
It is when gaming tables are one of the best ways of getting customers (and potential customers) into the store, and the biggest advantage a physical store has over an online store.
If that's your chosen business model, sure.
It's only that 'biggest advantage' though if it actually translates into sales, and that's going to depend on your customer base. It's not actually a case of just setting up some tables and opening the doors, and the cash will roll in.
If the local guys who like to play in store aren't big spenders, then you're going to be better off focusing on the other big advantage that a physical store has over online - face to face customer service.
I'm just pointing out that the kind of store that cuts out gaming space to save money probably isn't going to waste expensive shelf space on a bunch of niche products.
Yes, I got that you were saying that. I disagree that those two things automatically go together. It's entirely likely that a store owner could understand that having a full product range is a drawcard while simultaneously not thinking that having gaming tables is worth the bother.
If I'm not using a store's gaming tables then why would I pay 90% of retail when I can get the same kit for 80% of retail online?
Because you can have it immediately. Because if you're not sure what you need, the guy in the shop can (theoretically, at least) help you to figure it out. Because you're a kid who doesn't have access to online shopping. Because you're an adult who doesn't trust online shopping. Or simply because you're one of those people who likes going into an actual shop, and looking at actual merchandise, and talking to actual people.
But how many of them are in the wargaming hobby? .
Probably quite a few. From a brief google of internet shipping statistics, the spread across the different age brackets is surprisingly even. It's not just 'old people who don't know computers' who don't want to shop online.
insaniak wrote: A store's sole purpose for existing is to sell stuff. If you walk in for something the store supposedly sells, and they don't have it... that's a failure on the part of the store.
I agree, it's a failure. But there's a difference between being disappointed with the store's failure and deciding you'll never go back to that store because one time they didn't have an item you wanted in stock.
It's only that 'biggest advantage' though if it actually translates into sales, and that's going to depend on your customer base. It's not actually a case of just setting up some tables and opening the doors, and the cash will roll in.
Of course it isn't that simple, simply having some 6x4 tables doesn't even guarantee that anyone will want to play on them. But it's a minimum prerequisite to compete with the other options for buying stuff, whether it's another store in your area that does have gaming space, or an online store with lower prices that you can't afford to match.
If the local guys who like to play in store aren't big spenders, then you're going to be better off focusing on the other big advantage that a physical store has over online - face to face customer service.
But "focusing on the other things" doesn't mean "get rid of the first group entirely". Nor do gaming tables and customer service conflict at all, unless you insist on using GW's idiotic "one employee per store" idea and have a group of players that needs constant supervision.
It's entirely likely that a store owner could understand that having a full product range is a drawcard while simultaneously not thinking that having gaming tables is worth the bother.
But how is that product range drawing in customers? Remember, miniatures as a whole aren't even all that profitable compared to MTG. So why pay for shelf space to hold a bunch of niche products that might sit there collecting dust for months (or even years!) before someone wants to buy them when you can open an even smaller store and focus on selling the high-profit items that are guaranteed to sell quickly?
Because you can have it immediately. Because if you're not sure what you need, the guy in the shop can (theoretically, at least) help you to figure it out. Because you're a kid who doesn't have access to online shopping. Because you're an adult who doesn't trust online shopping. Or simply because you're one of those people who likes going into an actual shop, and looking at actual merchandise, and talking to actual people.
In order of mention:
You can only have it immediately if you consider "waste my valuable time making an extra trip out to the game store" to be "immediate" and you're lucky enough to have a local store that has it in stock. Remember, you aren't there for gaming, so you can't just decide to grab that interesting model off the shelf while you're already there.
You aren't likely to get good advice on what to buy from a no-gaming store because the kind of person who is willing and able to give useful advice is able to give that advice because they care about the games they sell. And therefore they're likely to care about building a community and have gaming space available. The "profit first" guy who runs a pure business with no gaming space isn't going to care about finding you the perfect new model for your army, they're just going to tell you how awesome MTG is and suggest that you buy a few boxes.
Kids who don't have access to online shopping aren't ideal customers anyway because they don't have much money. Sure, take their money when you can, but good luck supporting a business with it.
If you're an adult who doesn't trust online shopping in 2015 you're probably a paranoid tinfoil hatter hiding in your survival bunker and you don't have any money left to spend on games after stocking up on a billion rounds of ammunition for your gun collection.
If you like the experience of shopping in a store and are willing to pay extra for it then congratulations, you're in the minority. As other businesses have demonstrated there aren't enough people like you for an independent local business to survive without offering something (beyond the experience of buying in a store) that the online discount store can't give you.
Probably quite a few. From a brief google of internet shipping statistics, the spread across the different age brackets is surprisingly even. It's not just 'old people who don't know computers' who don't want to shop online.
Could you give a link to the statistics you're looking at? Are they for the general population, or focused on the kind of people who buy miniatures? It's an important difference because the typical gaming customer is probably more likely than an average person to use online shopping. They're at least middle class (so no "can't afford internet at home" reasons), they're probably interested in various geek hobbies that involve computers and the internet, they have smartphones and are familiar with buying digital stuff for them, etc. Yeah, it's anecdotal evidence, but everyone I know in the same 30-ish age group buys stuff online and the only people I've ever met who have been reluctant to shop online have been from older generations.
Peregrine wrote: But how many people are in this group, and willing to pay extra for it? I can understand wanting to check your finecast model before buying it, but that's a special case. Most of the time you really aren't going to be getting much information out of looking at the box on the shelf instead of the catalog pictures online.
Quite a lot, actually. It's not just about the information on the box, but about the thing you're buying being a tangible 'thing'. Or simply about proving that the thing that you're paying for actually exists, and you're not just throwing your money away into the ether.
Exactly, there's more to it than the box photo. You can generally get a better look even at the box than you'll find online, you might even get to open it. Obviously with blisters it's easier still as you can see in.
I find it much better with paints though; I can see what the color is actually going to look like, rather than what shows on my screen.
Plus it's nice to deal with a tangible and take it home right then.
Browsing a shelving system is also better; you're more likely to come across stuff you wouldn't if you were using a webstore.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who works all day, so if I order something online I probably have to go collect it from a post office depot anyway, so why not just go to the store and buy it myself?
Peregrine wrote: I agree, it's a failure. But there's a difference between being disappointed with the store's failure and deciding you'll never go back to that store because one time they didn't have an item you wanted in stock.
You've just been waxing lyrical about how actually getting to a games store is a herculean task, but you can't see how someone might be less interested in a return trip if the first one shows that the store doesn't stock what they need?
For the rest, I suspect it's probably better if we just agree to disagree here, before some passing store owner trips over the armchair and dislocates the eyes he's busy rolling frantically...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote: Browsing a shelving system is also better; you're more likely to come across stuff you wouldn't if you were using a webstore.
Yeah, particularly when looking for conversion fodder, or for compatibility between different miniature ranges, having the stuff right there in front of you is a heck of a lot easier. Particularly since a lot of webcarts really aren't set up for casual browsing (Yes, GW and your 4 million pound monstrosity, I'm looking at you...)
I'm sure I'm not the only one who works all day, so if I order something online I probably have to go collect it from a post office depot anyway, so why not just go to the store and buy it myself?
A very good point. Although I got around that one by just having stuff delivered straight to work instead
insaniak wrote: You've just been waxing lyrical about how actually getting to a games store is a herculean task, but you can't see how someone might be less interested in a return trip if the first one shows that the store doesn't stock what they need?
I didn't say it was some kind of herculean task, I just said that it's an inconvenience. I personally wouldn't go to a store that doesn't stock a particular item that I want, but I also wouldn't go to a store that does stock that item unless I play my games there. If I'm not going there for gaming I'll just buy it online and never even bother to check if they have it in stock. But my post there was talking about it from your perspective: if you value the in-store experience enough to pay extra for it then why would you refuse to go back over a single out of stock item? One thing being out of stock one time doesn't mean that you'll continue to have the same problem, and if you're serious about that policy you'll pretty quickly run out of local stores to shop at.
Peregrine wrote: if you value the in-store experience enough to pay extra for it then why would you refuse to go back over a single out of stock item? .
As with most things in real life, it's not quite that black-and-white.
If I have a store that I'm going to regularly, I'm going to have a reasonable idea of the sort of range that they keep. If what I want matches what they stock then there's unlikely to be a problem. If, however, I start finding that I'm going in looking for specific things that they turn out to not have, it's not going to take too long before I start wondering if there's a better alternative.
If it's a new store that I've never been to before, and I'm walking out of there empty-handed because they didn't have what I wanted, there's no positive experience there to encourage me to come back. Particularly if I noticed while I was there that the range on the shelf was poor. If there's going to be a reasonable chance that they're going to have to special order whatever it is that I'm looking for, I might as well just stay at home and order it online myself... so I'm not going to be in any hurry to go back to that store.
What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...
Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.
Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines.
Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.
Something actually approaching on topic: I will say this... it irks the gak out of me when i pre-order something and i don't get it on release day. It's rare, but it does happen.
Chipolte is literally my favorite place on earth...I love burritos so much...I can't eat those frozen ones though - makes me want to die.
Like I said the biggest thing in my case at least is a combination of lack of much stock and having to pay virtually full retail. If I have to order it anyways, why order it from the shop and have to wait longer on top of paying more?
If they had a large amount of stock there'd be more impulse buys. If they offered let's say a 20% discount (13% after tax) then that's still pretty good, even a 17% discount so it's still 10% after tax. But not much selection and only getting what amounts to a 3% discount makes it very hard to get anything significant there.
WayneTheGame wrote: Like I said the biggest thing in my case at least is a combination of lack of much stock and having to pay virtually full retail. If I have to order it anyways, why order it from the shop and have to wait longer on top of paying more?
If they had a large amount of stock there'd be more impulse buys. If they offered let's say a 20% discount (13% after tax) then that's still pretty good, even a 17% discount so it's still 10% after tax. But not much selection and only getting what amounts to a 3% discount makes it very hard to get anything significant there.
You are aware that online sales also require Sales Tax right? It's just on YOU to report them. Should you ever be audited, you got some 'splainin' to do.
Except stores are doing it, and have been for decades.
Again, maybe this is just an Australian thing? Maybe your online discounters just can't get their stock cheap enough to offer good discounts, or the market isn't competitive enough to drive online store prices down and they just take the extra profit while selling at full physical store prices?
We don't have online discounters that go anywhere near yours for the most part. Most might offer 10% (some B&M retailers offer 5-10%), some online retailers may occasionally offer slightly more, but we simply don't get 30-40% off places here. And many of their "discounts" are based off a mythical "Australian RRP" (set by who?) which will vary from store to store and is often more than MSRP from the country of origin. As in I can buy Warlord Games kits direct from Warlord (not a discounter), including shipping, and pay less than the local "discounted" price, quite often. Let alone the local "RRP".
I often find FLGS that will offer 10-20% off I shop mostly in California, Texas, and Pennsylvania, I am happy to buy from them.
If the nearest FLGS offers no discounts, I will buy less from them and more from online until I am spending about 20% of retail total between the total purchases.
Many people who run hobby stores fail to realize they would make more money by charging a little less.
That said if you go somewhere to play, you should buy some things from them and support them, if you don't and maybe no one else is, they may not be around eventually and that place to play will be gone.
WayneTheGame wrote: Like I said the biggest thing in my case at least is a combination of lack of much stock and having to pay virtually full retail. If I have to order it anyways, why order it from the shop and have to wait longer on top of paying more?
If they had a large amount of stock there'd be more impulse buys. If they offered let's say a 20% discount (13% after tax) then that's still pretty good, even a 17% discount so it's still 10% after tax. But not much selection and only getting what amounts to a 3% discount makes it very hard to get anything significant there.
You are aware that online sales also require Sales Tax right? It's just on YOU to report them. Should you ever be audited, you got some 'splainin' to do.
WayneTheGame wrote: Like I said the biggest thing in my case at least is a combination of lack of much stock and having to pay virtually full retail. If I have to order it anyways, why order it from the shop and have to wait longer on top of paying more?
If they had a large amount of stock there'd be more impulse buys. If they offered let's say a 20% discount (13% after tax) then that's still pretty good, even a 17% discount so it's still 10% after tax. But not much selection and only getting what amounts to a 3% discount makes it very hard to get anything significant there.
You are aware that online sales also require Sales Tax right? It's just on YOU to report them. Should you ever be audited, you got some 'splainin' to do.
That law may not be, but individual states may have laws existing specifying it is to be reported. Obviously the requirements and thresholds vary from state to state.
As far as the original topic, I generally try to find what I'm looking for locally first. If it's not available for whatever reason, then I typically order it online. I will pay a premium for immediate purchase, but if I will be waiting for a week anyway then I will go with the vendor who is cheaper. I'm honestly surprised that retailers don't offer a similar discount on such orders, but there's no way I'm going to have a wait and another trip to a B&M store to pay full retail.
Except stores are doing it, and have been for decades.
Again, maybe this is just an Australian thing? Maybe your online discounters just can't get their stock cheap enough to offer good discounts, or the market isn't competitive enough to drive online store prices down and they just take the extra profit while selling at full physical store prices?
We don't have online discounters that go anywhere near yours for the most part. Most might offer 10% (some B&M retailers offer 5-10%), some online retailers may occasionally offer slightly more, but we simply don't get 30-40% off places here. And many of their "discounts" are based off a mythical "Australian RRP" (set by who?) which will vary from store to store and is often more than MSRP from the country of origin. As in I can buy Warlord Games kits direct from Warlord (not a discounter), including shipping, and pay less than the local "discounted" price, quite often. Let alone the local "RRP".
When it comes to GW stuff I don't think there's any places even internationally that are 30-40%, mostly 15-25%. Out here TheCombatCompany is about 15% on GW stuff and there's a few places that are a bit over 20%, BlackCultist is 21.5% but I think they might charge more for shipping where TCC is free shipping over $100.
Most B&M stores I've been to were at least 10% off GW stuff, up to about 15%.
But yeah, for general items it does seem like the US has bigger online discounts, but it all depends how unrealistic the original RRP was I guess. Both here and there certain items have RRP's set stupidly high. Some things also go on sales frequently. I was looking at buying some tools from Supercheap Auto and noticed that every couple of months they go on sale for close to half price, you'd feel like a sucker if you bought them full price and then 2 weeks later they're $100 off, then another 2 months later again they're $100 off, then 4 months later and so on.
What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...
Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.
Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven pare clearly populated by unwashed philistines.
Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.
Something actually approaching on topic: I will say this... it irks the gak out of me when i pre-order something and i don't get it on release day. It's rare, but it does happen.
Chipolte is literally my favorite place on earth...I love burritos so much...I can't eat those frozen ones though - makes me want to die.
What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...
Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.
Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines. Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.
Chipolte is literally my favorite place on earth...I love burritos so much...I can't eat those frozen ones though - makes me want to die.
There is a big difference between a $5-10 fresh-made burrito and a $1 frozen burrito. It's like comparing Five Guys with a dollar menu hamburger at McDonalds, or Mortons vs Dennys. You get what you pay for!
I highly doubt you could sustain a gaming store on the sales of new wargaming figures alone. Some of us have the disposable income to "not care," but then again I spend a great deal of my time scouring trading forums and eBay for the best deals. I find getting models at 60%-80% off a fun game and makes the hobby even cheaper. But if there's $10 gribbles or a new shiny coming out, I buy it at the store. If I do a cash trade, I tend to spend the cash at the store, too.
The smartest thing I've seen is a game store that has a consignment cabinet. It's simply a large glass display case that the you sign a wavier to use and you put models in there with a sticker for price. If it sells, the store gets a 10% straight cut and you get the rest back in store credit, which means the store wins both ways... they enable the used market, which is healthy as the new AND get a significant cut while doing it.
Game stores should not hate bargain hunters but rather enable them! If that's where gamers congregate routinely then it's a win-win to shift goods locally and do so without incurring eBay fees or online trading risks.
Buy the best deal is my motto. I've moved a lot for work, so I don't consider any store I play at the "home store" for long. I want to support them and pay for events, food, and gaming accessories whenever I can from them. However, saving 60% off on a majority of an army, regardless of which game you play, is significant. And store owners shouldn't chase away the crafty bargain hunters because we're just another opponent to play against and we can enable other players. I've let newer players borrow swaths of my stuff to learn to play or be competitive in tournaments. Those players have then turned around and bought those items at the store because they enjoyed the power and capabilities they didn't know were possible.
It's not black and white, much like many things. Good business' will adapt and thrive. Bad will fail.
Azazelx wrote: ...And many of their "discounts" are based off a mythical "Australian RRP" (set by who?)
RRP is set by the manufacturer. GW isn't so expensive here because retailers are colluding to adhere to an inflated RRP... the prices are what they are because GW sets a wholesale price that is in some cases higher than the retail price overseas, and the store still needs to make a profit on top of that.
I don't know if it has changed in the years since, but waaay back when I was a stockist, the markup from wholesale to retail on GW merchandise in Oz was 30% (which is bad margin, and one of the reasons card games, food, and just about any other miniature game on the market is a better option for a store if they can encourage enough of a customer base for it). That's why you don't tend to see discounts of more than 20%... Even at 20%, the store has to work pretty darn hard to actually make money.
In recent years, at least up until the international embargoes went up, I have heard of independants actually buying stock at retail from overseas rather than from GW wholesale, because it was winding up cheaper for them. That's screwed up.
Late to the party, but my $0.02 from my experiences:
I buy from my FLGS whenever possible. It has a lot to do with how the store treats it's players and collectors.
1. My FLGS is extremely supportive and the owners are extremely cool and accommodating. They host regular 40k tourneys, with no entry fee, and top 3 get in store credit (1st gets $75!!). And at the end, everyone walks away with at least a pot of paint. It may not seem like much, but they don't have to do that at all.
2. When it comes to pre-orders, they bust their ass (and their reps' ass) to get you what you want. In the case of 40k, all the weird "allocated" stuff, they'll get it for you if you preorder.
3. All purchases of certain game systems over a threshold get 20-25% off (ex: all 40k purchases over $150 get 20% off).
4. Gaming space: while small, they will move every table they have to allow you to play your game. And at this FLGS, people play EVERYTHING.
5. The owners are gamers and collectors. Helps a lot with understanding their clientele.
6. Regular customers have "bins"; they'll hold stuff for you until you stop back in.
Because of all this, I have no problem supporting them. If a FLGS is interested in me being their customer, I'll gladly oblige.
Unfortunately, I'll end up moving at some point, and merely hoping I can find a place this good.
insaniak wrote: A store's sole purpose for existing is to sell stuff. If you walk in for something the store supposedly sells, and they don't have it... that's a failure on the part of the store.
I agree, it's a failure. But there's a difference between being disappointed with the store's failure and deciding you'll never go back to that store because one time they didn't have an item you wanted in stock.
I can't agree with that. If a store orders 10 stompas (for example), but doesn't sell them, that is a costly failure. If the store orders 0 stompas and 10 people come in wanting to but one, then they failed 10 times? Sounds like they can't win.
For a long time we had two stores, on store stocked alot of GW products, the other only stocked what it thought it could sell. The first store went out of business. The second store is thriving and has doubled it's playing space. I buy and order stuff from this store because I appreciate the space they provide.
There's something to be said that if you're actively supporting a game, having the staples for it would be wise. For GW (why would a new B&M start a trade account with them is beyond me), that's gonna be troopers and their transports. For PP, Battle Boxes and faction "Must Haves" like the Choir for Menoth or Shifting Stones for Circle of Orboros.
Having the big stuff on hand that's a one time purchase ($100+ kits) probably isn't as wise and you can have them be a special order item if you offer incentive to order there (20%~).
I wouldn't rake a FLGS over the coals if they didn't have a certain unit for a list I'm building that's completely contrary to popular choice. If it's not common, why would you stock it?
What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...
Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.
Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines. Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.
Chipolte is literally my favorite place on earth...I love burritos so much...I can't eat those frozen ones though - makes me want to die.
There is a big difference between a $5-10 fresh-made burrito and a $1 frozen burrito. It's like comparing Five Guys with a dollar menu hamburger at McDonalds, or Mortons vs Dennys. You get what you pay for!
Absolutely. 1$ frozen burritos are not food any more than 1$ frozen hotdogs, or sandwiches out of gas station vending machines are.
But Bocoloco, Chipotle, and to a slightly lesser extent, Cilantro are fething delicious. I like chipotle the best as it has a little less variety but everythign is UBER goddamn fresh, and their design of checkout is brilliant (4 line workers in about 6 feet, from burrito press to checkout, takes 30 seconds tops as they make it right before your eyes). Soooooo good.
I have one near my work and one just opened up near my house, so i am a happy burrito slut.
At the end of the day, stores come and go. If one closes, wait a year give or take a few months and it will be replaced by another just like it carrying the same merchandise.
If a store does not want to fail and become just another number, the owner needs to find a way to prevent it. This means finding ways yo make customers WANT to spend their money there. The onus is 100% on the shoulders of the store owner.
Having a gaming area is a start. a START. being successful means more than slapping a couple sheets of plywood on sawhorses and then sitting back with a bucket expecting people to come from all across the country to pour their money into it. It seems that this is all many think they have to do. Well, unfortunately, as we have seen and see in this thread by (evidently) failing shop owners, it takes more.
Shop owners need to be knowledgeable, offer discounts, hold events, start or host clubs, explain rules and run demonstrate games they may not personally like and so on and so forth in order to compete with the internet sales. They need to make customers WANT to make sure they stay in business for MORE reasons than to have a place to game (because they can do that at home or in the new shop when it opens up in a few weeks). They need to ensure the customers want THIS store to stick around.
If they do this, the internet sales vs store sales will not be an issue to begin with.
Ive seen this with my own eyes. Store owners who do this WILL have customers coming in and buying stuff they could otherwise get slightly cheaper online.
Geemoney wrote: I can't agree with that. If a store orders 10 stompas (for example), but doesn't sell them, that is a costly failure. If the store orders 0 stompas and 10 people come in wanting to but one, then they failed 10 times? Sounds like they can't win.
Of course they can win. They do that by knowing the products they sell, and knowing their customer base, and stocking accordingly.
For a long time we had two stores, on store stocked alot of GW products, the other only stocked what it thought it could sell. The first store went out of business. The second store is thriving and has doubled it's playing space..
That doesn't actually prove anything more than that one store went out of business and the other didn't. There are a heck of a lot more factors than just what's on the shelf that decide whether or not a store stays in business.
So if your FLGS is in fact friendly, figure out what huge order you want, and what it would cost online. Then go to your game store and ask them if they can cut you deal. A single big order, pay in cash (avoids CC merchant fees for the store), be willing to take delivery over time... See if you can't work together to save some money and give the shop some business.
I buy from my FLGS whenever possible. It has a lot to do with how the store treats it's players and collectors.
1. My FLGS is extremely supportive and the owners are extremely cool and accommodating. They host regular 40k tourneys, with no entry fee, and top 3 get in store credit (1st gets $75!!). And at the end, everyone walks away with at least a pot of paint. It may not seem like much, but they don't have to do that at all.
2. When it comes to pre-orders, they bust their ass (and their reps' ass) to get you what you want. In the case of 40k, all the weird "allocated" stuff, they'll get it for you if you preorder.
3. All purchases of certain game systems over a threshold get 20-25% off (ex: all 40k purchases over $150 get 20% off).
4. Gaming space: while small, they will move every table they have to allow you to play your game. And at this FLGS, people play EVERYTHING.
5. The owners are gamers and collectors. Helps a lot with understanding their clientele.
6. Regular customers have "bins"; they'll hold stuff for you until you stop back in.
Because of all this, I have no problem supporting them. If a FLGS is interested in me being their customer, I'll gladly oblige.
Unfortunately, I'll end up moving at some point, and merely hoping I can find a place this good.
I wish there were more Carolina Comics in this world!!!!
I figured out the thing I value most is items being in stock. Not price. Not a place to play. I want to buy something from someone who actually has it and in exchange for my money, I actually get the item in question (what a crazy notion!).
I did the special order thing with one local store for a while, but there was simply too high of a failure rate. I had things not get placed on the order at all, stuff out of stock at distributors, stuff put out on the shelf and sold rather than being held for my order. I game at the store about twice a month and I always buy something. A couple bottles of paint, a couple reaper bones miniatures, or maybe a solo for WM/Hs if they have one I want.
They get only 10% or so of my hobby spending by failing me on special orders. I'm not looking for a discount. I have even paid higher than MSRP after shipping to get an item I want from someone I know has it. I just want the actual product I want without endless delays and problems.
I used to try to support my FLGS, our store has a bunch of gaming tables and is pretty huge, however they offer no discount whatsoever. I support them by buying all Glue, Green Stuff, Paints and Magic Cards. I buy all my TTG figures online new or pre owned, it is hard for me to justify paying full retail when I can pay 35% less. I mainly game at home but that is changing as I am starting to push Batman the Miniatures game on the overall community, however they cannot order Batman in nor do they wish to attempt to support it so I do not really feel so bad.
Alpharius wrote: I know I'm late to the party here, but I'm definitely in the camp of "Spend As Much As You Can" at the store where you spend most of your time.
I agree, I will always buy from a physical shop if I can. Not only does it keep the place in business, particular important if you actually game there, but it means that you get your toys instantly. I will only buy online if I'm after something that isn't in stock (and can't be ordered) or if the shop is hopeless. It may be a bit more expensive than buying from somewhere like Wayland, but depending on what you are buying its generally little more than pennies.
I live close to a good shop these days so virtually my entire little man budget goes there now but in the past I lived nearly on top of a shop that was simply terrible and as a result I bought nearly everything online.
Azazelx wrote: ...And many of their "discounts" are based off a mythical "Australian RRP" (set by who?)
RRP is set by the manufacturer. GW isn't so expensive here because retailers are colluding to adhere to an inflated RRP... the prices are what they are because GW sets a wholesale price that is in some cases higher than the retail price overseas, and the store still needs to make a profit on top of that.
I actually wasn't talking about GW at all, since obviously GW sets their own RRP here due to their local presence/global reach. I've stopped buying their stuff almost completely, and only pick up the occasional pot of paint locally. Battlefront is one of the other - few - exceptions that sets an AU$RRP for their product. I was actually referring to a much broader swathe of hobby product, from boardgames (Zombicide - where I've seen four different "RRP" from four different stores at the same time - all before our dollar crashed and pre-ZS2) through to historical miniatures, From Warlod to Victrix to Gripping Beast to WGF.
In recent years, at least up until the international embargoes went up, I have heard of independants actually buying stock at retail from overseas rather than from GW wholesale, because it was winding up cheaper for them. That's screwed up.
Some places still do this. Mayalsia/Singapore supplies a few people, as I understand it.
My local shop told me today they're ok with people selling/trading armies to each other in the shop. A guy was about to buy $100 worth of Menoth and the owner told him to talk to me first. I sold him my Menoth for $100. Then I walked him over to the paint section and sold him $80 worth of paint and brushes so everybody won. I talked to him privately about pricing and placing large orders, he can do 20% off all the time, larger discounts for big orders. Since he's willing to work with me on price, I'm going to make sure all my friends shop there. He already agreed to start keeping a better WMH stock because he knows if we have to order and wait for something to come in, we will go online to save money.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The most successful long-term gaming stores I've seen had ONE 4'x8' table that served multiple purposes, with folding tables for card gaming nights.
The stores with more table space than product shelving? Out of business within a year.
If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.
That's definitely not the model here in Chicago and real estate isn't cheap either. The longest surviving game store started (8 years?) with 6 4x6 gaming tables and a few card tables for card games. Then they rented a vacant space and expanded to 10 more picnic tables with wood overlays (essentially 4x6 tables). Now they're in a double sized space with 8 or so game tables and about 15-20 card/picknic tables that do double duty as card and wargame tables (with wood tops added).
The longest surviving store (20+ years) in the suburbs has 7 permanent wargaming tables and 4 partitioned off areas that are RPG, Card or wargames tables depending on the evening. And this store is in an area where folks tend to have houses that could host their own games.
I can't speak to where you live, but all this to say, less tables does not equal survival.
I just look at the game / hobby stores in Ann Arbor and SoCal, and that's what I see very consistently. There isn't a single place in either locality that survives with the bulk of their space dedicated to lots of tables. In both metros, the places that survived long term were stores first.
Unless they are a dedicated card store, doing FNM and drafts and tournaments every weekend. Cards have a very different business model compared to a game / hobby store. Even then, the card stores are challenged to have enough of a base to thrive.
i've been to stores through 4 states on the east coast and the only ones to survive are the ones who had plenty of gaming area. This is consistent with anecdotal stories I have seen across the internet.
In order for a store to survive, they need to know their customers, keep on hand what they want, offer prices that are competetive and find ways to make customers WANT to spend their money there rather than elsewhere. With gaming stores, one of the first and easiest ways to do this is offer a gaming area and competitive prices.
You will notice that almost every game store is also a card store. You will find pure card stores few and far between.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I just look at the game / hobby stores in Ann Arbor and SoCal, and that's what I see very consistently. There isn't a single place in either locality that survives with the bulk of their space dedicated to lots of tables. In both metros, the places that survived long term were stores first.
Unless they are a dedicated card store, doing FNM and drafts and tournaments every weekend. Cards have a very different business model compared to a game / hobby store. Even then, the card stores are challenged to have enough of a base to thrive.
Interesting.
Two biggest game stores around here (Games Plus and Chicagoland Games) deliberately diversify. Carrying cards, wargames and Board Games with a strong following for all of them. . The biggest "Games Plus" (in the suburbs) still dedicates the largest portion of it's shelf space to wargames, yet they make space for alot of boardgamers and RPGers. When we go to game there's usually several board game groups, a couple of RPG groups and a 40k club (4-6 players) all gaming at the same time as our club (indie miniatures games).
The Second Biggest , Chicagoland (in Chicago) does roughly the same thing though their shelf space is more evenly split. They cater to each section and have a HUGE board game community.
A new one opened up about a year and a half ago out in the western suburbs with roughly the same model (not as much board games though), Draxtar. They have at least 7-9 4x6 wargaming tables and maybe 20 card tables. They seem to be intentionally setup to be able to host a ton of card players and even tournaments and having Wargamers playing at the same time.
There's a small, more recent chain of 3 "Gaming Goat" stores. These seem to follow the mostly Card model but also having Privateer press (they don't do 40k) and board games and they all seem to have significant are at least for card tables. Like you, we also have a fair number of similar stores that are mostly Card shops, often they are in conjunction with comic shops. .
There are other smaller ones too, but they do seem to come and go with more frequency. The trend in Chicago area over the last 20 years seems to be that out here folks seem to want a game and a place to play it. To survive it seems the most successful places will try to serve everyone even if you need a somewhat larger space to accommodate them all. Like your area however, we do also have stores that seem to specialize in cards.
I'd be curious to know more of the details out there. Are game stores more specialized? Do you have a big board game culture? How big are these stores?
EVIL INC wrote: i've been to stores through 4 states on the east coast and the only ones to survive are the ones who had plenty of gaming area. This is consistent with anecdotal stories I have seen across the internet.
In order for a store to survive, they need to know their customers, keep on hand what they want, offer prices that are competetive and find ways to make customers WANT to spend their money there rather than elsewhere. With gaming stores, one of the first and easiest ways to do this is offer a gaming area and competitive prices.
You will notice that almost every game store is also a card store. You will find pure card stores few and far between.
Around here, there are dedicated card stores. There's even one in the same parking lot as Brookhurst Hobbies. They have a very different layout. I forget if Mercenary Market sold cards, but they sure had a lot of empty space.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In the Bay Area, it seems roughly the same. Gaming stores are crammed full of product with a lot of diversity and not many tables. Games of Berkeley is pretty huge for a gaming store, but they don't have any tables to play on unless they are all hidden upstairs. A lot of comic book stores sell cards, so the gaming stores seem to focus on board games and tabletop games and RPGs. They might have some cards, but generally not even close to half as much as other stuff they carry. Models and military war gaming are well represented in SoCal and, from what I hear, Sacremento.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know there are gaming clubs in Berkely, and I imagine a lot of people game at home with friends in SoCal.
Bob has it right for SoCal. MM sold cards, as does pretty much everybody, but merely having the a few boosters on premises does not a card store make. Majestix just dumped their comics and rebranded as a card store.
I am a little late to the party but here is my input anyhow.
I use to play 40k up until 7th and had four armies that I purchased over the span of two years. During that time I could walk in and grab about 70-80% of the army off the shelf unless I as looking for triplicates of something like a Triarch Stalker, drop pods etc etc etc. Because of this I would purchase what I needed and have the owner order the last of it.
Contrast this to Warmanouns. Before I started playing I talked to my local PG, demo'd a few games with armies lent to me by local players and decided on a faction. I then spent a week researching my purchases to build my three tournament lists. Queue payday and I walk into my FLGS with a wallet full of cash. Out of the 20 odd boxes/blisters I needed he had 4 of them.
So I bite the bullet and have him order every thing at full price and wait two weeks for every thing to arrive as his distributor was also light on stock.
A few months down the road I decide I want the fancy and finally fully released CoC (aside from the TEP). I know what I want to purchase and have my spreadsheet all set up. I walk into my LGS and he has a total of 5 CoC boxes and about 7-8 blisters. I needed two of the boxes on hand (out of about 10 that I wanted to purchase) and two of the blisters of which he was lacking 10 or so that I was looking for.
He was able to order half of the stuff I wanted in about a week and a half and told me it would be 2-3 weeks on the rest.
I checked online at another retailer three cities over and he has it all in stock, has a 15% discount for online orders and free shipping for orders over $100.00. I had my order delivered to my office two days later.
I'm now on my third army. I did my research, planned my armies and put the money aside. Sure enough it is the same thing. I was able to find 1/5th of the stock I require and would have had to wait a week or so to have him order it in at full value. I ordered online from a shop I will most likely never play at unless I go for a tournament and all because my FLGS refuses to carry adequate warmahordes stock despite having about 15 regular players plus countless other players who play at home/school/else where(and many of us have faction ADD/starting new armies with the new box sets coming out).
Moral of the story. If you want loyal customers to purchase from you at the very least carry a couple of the commonly purchased army units. Many of us now do a bi-monthly order online because purchases over 400 get a discount of 20-25% depending on the item and free over night shipping if the order is placed before 1400 the previous day.
Compromise. Full army from scratch, save money (the hobby is just too expensive), afterwards, when your army is playable and you just buy new releases here and there when you like the models, then go with your lfgs.
Buying an 80 dollars models a month or every other month is no big deal, the problem is dropping 800 to build a playable army.
xxvaderxx wrote: Compromise. Full army from scratch, save money (the hobby is just too expensive), afterwards, when your army is playable and you just buy new releases here and there when you like the models, then go with your lfgs.
Buying an 80 dollars models a month or every other month is no big deal, the problem is dropping 800 to build a playable army.
That's a good middle ground. Peronally I don't have 80 a month for the hobby, but If I'm not short on cash I try to put 100 a year towards the store.
xxvaderxx wrote: Compromise. Full army from scratch, save money (the hobby is just too expensive), afterwards, when your army is playable and you just buy new releases here and there when you like the models, then go with your lfgs.
Buying an 80 dollars models a month or every other month is no big deal, the problem is dropping 800 to build a playable army.
That's a good middle ground. Peronally I don't have 80 a month for the hobby, but If I'm not short on cash I try to put 100 a year towards the store.
Well that's pretty much what I've decided to do. A box here or there, or a bunch of the cheaper blisters I'll order from the store. If it's a big order, like I'm buying 3-4 new units to take my force in a different direction, then I'm ordering online because that's likely going to be $200 or more and saving a lot on it would be great.
I don't have a local minis store, but I do buy board games from the local when I can. If I'm away in a shop and find something I like, or if I find a really good deal online (like 40%+ off RRP) I may use that though.
I have been watching this, and it made me think back to the pre-Internet days of when you had no choice but to support your local store (which might not have been too local).
Dallas, Texas, for instance, had ONE game store until the 1990's, and it now only has a handful.
Houston, Texas seems to only have one.
Los Angeles has two (and neither are in LA itself).
But.... Back to my point.
If it is something that I run a high risk of getting pirated re-casts online, or something that is typically well-supported, and which isn't going to disappear, then I will always take the trouble to bit or order via the store.
And I will try to always buy paints and brushes, and other such things via the store.
But there are just so many things now that are so hard to get through a store....
I am sure that I have repeated what others have said.
And, ultimately, what we are facing is the eventually need to confront the changing dynamics of our economic system in the global economy being dependent upon a vanishing workforce.
Eventually, we need to confront either a return to feudalism, or a shift to a non-capitalistic economy that does not force work for supporting one's life.
But that is either a different topic, or the ultimate foundation of this one.
MB
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xxvaderxx wrote: Compromise. Full army from scratch, save money (the hobby is just too expensive), afterwards, when your army is playable and you just buy new releases here and there when you like the models, then go with your lfgs.
Buying an 80 dollars models a month or every other month is no big deal, the problem is dropping 800 to build a playable army.
And there is that.
My Thunderbolt Mountain Miniatures and Vintage Ral Partna Goblin and Orc army will have cost me about $1,200 all told... Maybe more, since I have not paid close attention to what the Ral Partna vintage stuff cost me (to think that I bought the same collection of miniatures in 1980 for just $100, and got 200 miniatures).
One thing that I do to try to offset this is to try to spread out the purchases so that I am only spending $75 - $100 a month.
Sometimes you can't do that if you wish to take advantage of sales or discounts.
That store I told you all about? I got banned. The owner insulted my friend who works as a painter for a commission service was accused of stealing business I stood up for him and I got banned with him. He was conducting business there, but not stealing it, because he is a painter.
The owner called us toxic be cause we bring Comeet it I've armies to friendly games.
kinda funny, the conversation got started because the owner offered 10% off pretty order on 4th til june, which magicallyrics seem to be the time no big releases are happening
hotsauceman1 wrote: That store I told you all about? I got banned. The owner insulted my friend who works as a painter for a commission service was accused of stealing business I stood up for him and I got banned with him. He was conducting business there, but not stealing it, because he is a painter.
The owner called us toxic be cause we bring Comeet it I've armies to friendly games.
What are you talking about here? I don't get it...
hotsauceman1 wrote: That store I told you all about? I got banned. The owner insulted my friend who works as a painter for a commission service was accused of stealing business I stood up for him and I got banned with him. He was conducting business there, but not stealing it, because he is a painter.
The owner called us toxic be cause we bring Comeet it I've armies to friendly games.
What are you talking about here? I don't get it...
It's probably an auto correct mobile thing.
He's saying "The owner called us toxic because we bring competitive armies to friendly games."
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yes, sorry, Auto correct is a bitch.
But as we said, I play White Scars backed up with a knight. Completely fluffy, yet they had a problem with it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yes, sorry, Auto correct is a bitch.
But as we said, I play White Scars backed up with a knight. Completely fluffy, yet they had a problem with it.
Don't ya know?
Fluffy is the new WAAC.
Except when it isn't.
But then sometimes WAAC just happens to be fluffy.
And then anyone playing fluff becomes a WAAC.
Except for when people let them get away with it.
...
If it is something that I run a high risk of getting pirated re-casts online, or something that is typically well-supported, and which isn't going to disappear, then I will always take the trouble to bit or order via the store.
And I will try to always buy paints and brushes, and other such things via the store.
But there are just so many things now that are so hard to get through a store....
The only times you have a high chance of getting recasts is if you're buying things from China, Russia or perhaps eBay. These days, we're aware of a hell of a lot more than ever. While 15-20+ years ago it was easy to spend all my money on Citadel with a smattering of Ral Partha, RAFM, Grenadier, etc these days I don't find it hard to spend all my hobby money on brands that didn't exist back then and/or are not really stocked locally at all (or in any quantity) anyway. So why order from a store when ordering direct is so much more efficient and cheaper to boot? Brushes from a store? Sure, if they're cheap and cheerful. Army Painter brushes are mostly crap, so if you want a good brush you need to go to a proper art store - so you may as well go online. I mostly got my brushes back then from model kit/train stores anyway, and now I get W&N S7 from the UK - for less than the local ripoff wants for his gakky Army Painter brushes.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yes, sorry, Auto correct is a bitch.
But as we said, I play White Scars backed up with a knight. Completely fluffy, yet they had a problem with it.
Don't ya know?
Fluffy is the new WAAC.
Except when it isn't.
But then sometimes WAAC just happens to be fluffy.
And then anyone playing fluff becomes a WAAC.
Except for when people let them get away with it.
...
*GW balance*
I'm not going to get drawn into an argument here, but "White Scars backed up with a knight" can describe many different kinds of force composition.
I like the images, but hate the wording on those posts. "Cheese" this and "gimmick" that. No, the rules are bad and a both were playing them; live/die (win/lose) by the rules. It's scrub language otherwise.
Azazelx wrote: I'm not going to get drawn into an argument here, but "White Scars backed up with a knight" can describe many different kinds of force composition.
TheKbob wrote: I like the images, but hate the wording on those posts. "Cheese" this and "gimmick" that. No, the rules are bad and a both were playing them; live/die (win/lose) by the rules. It's scrub language otherwise.
Also, IIRC, that picture was posed. The Tau player did win the game by blocking the table edge, but then they called over a judge and decided to take a funny picture.
Alpharius wrote: I know I'm late to the party here, but I'm definitely in the camp of "Spend As Much As You Can" at the store where you spend most of your time.
When I want or need something ASAP, I buy from the local store. (which is frequently, due to having a tourney or a new battle plan pop up with game night looming very close)
I buy online when I can wait, or need to save those few bucks. Buying online is usually as expensive as buying in a store, even with deals; due to shipping.
Largely, for me; It depends on time restraints.
(I don't mind buying a model for $10 more when I can't wait three weeks for the model to get to me. I just imagine it was $10 for overnight shipping without having to track down the package)
I think it comes down to value-added, ultimately, and the fact that value is always subjective means there will never be a definitive answer.
In the best possible world, we'd have a flourishing local marketplace with almost every product and enough wages that price was irrelevant.
In my particular case, I do custom framing, which is hard to order online, as well as risky because of the glass involved. I'm still protected by the vagaries of shipping, in a sense.
But when I go to the lone FLGS that offers more than GW, it's sad indeed. Few products on the shelves, long ordering times, and shipping tacked on to our orders. We also have to pay to rent a table, or buy a yearly membership to pay less per table. I never do because of my work schedule. I rarely go there anymore because there is a lack of product. And I wish I could give them my money, honestly. So instead I give it to a store in Toronto. I can even understand how that works out in my mind.
I usually make a point to buy something every time I go to a store to play. Otherwise I only buy locally when I need something fast, or really need to compare it in person (I have to do this with brass rod etc.)
Trouble is, half the time the store I am at doesn't have stock I want. Their ordering process is trash, so I just buy online and play a my house.
My local store doesnt stock the stuff I want so I buy it online, but items like dice and paints and glue I buy from my store as its the local store, now if my store stocked some warmachine I would totally buy stuff from there, unless there was a major difference in price,
Like if I could buy the same model on gifts for geeks for 20% less then my local store then anything above £10 will be bought online,
But my local store only has 1 warmachine item (I'm not even kidding) soo....
For me it comes down to this, would I support a local selling a Codex for $83 or get the same thing from Britain for $50 (inc postage) and save 66%, i'll get it from Britain everyday.
DukeBadham wrote: My local store doesnt stock the stuff I want so I buy it online, but items like dice and paints and glue I buy from my store as its the local store, now if my store stocked some warmachine I would totally buy stuff from there, unless there was a major difference in price,
Like if I could buy the same model on gifts for geeks for 20% less then my local store then anything above £10 will be bought online,
But my local store only has 1 warmachine item (I'm not even kidding) soo....
And here is the Crux of it. Convienence is key, not table space.
If you stocked what I wanted I will most likely buy more from ya. But if you dont, and you take 3-]4 weeks to get it, while anther place may take the same time or less for cheaper, im buying from them.
Pay where you play is my motto. There is nothing that I need to buy that cant wait 1-2 weeks. I will also take extra steps to try and work with the mini's the store already has for many of my conversions or ideas.
Outside of specialist things like forgeworld or things they dont stock regularly/the prices are so far apart I cant justify it(like rare earth magnets) I will always try to get my stuff locally.
Do I trade for things? Sure, do I sell things? yep. But I don't sell locally.
However there is a caveat to this, and that is when its someone elses money. My dad asks me to grab stuff for him to bring to china, I get that as cheap as I can because he doesnt benefit from the local store.
Amen to that dude, I'm the same. I think about the options left to me if mt FLGS shut (local club where its all cliques and WAAC, or nothing) and I'm glad to drop cash there. And if it's a tiny bit more expensive (which it really isn't 99% of the time) then thats the fun tax.
