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 Peregrine wrote:
But how many people are in this group, and willing to pay extra for it? I can understand wanting to check your finecast model before buying it, but that's a special case. Most of the time you really aren't going to be getting much information out of looking at the box on the shelf instead of the catalog pictures online.

Quite a lot, actually. It's not just about the information on the box, but about the thing you're buying being a tangible 'thing'. Or simply about proving that the thing that you're paying for actually exists, and you're not just throwing your money away into the ether.

Which is a valid point, if you're talking about a store that you're already visiting for their gaming space. There's a lot of value in being able to pick up a new model/paint/whatever and have it immediately, as long as it's actually immediate. If you aren't already going to the store you have to make a special trip out there once you decide you want something, and that means waiting and having to pay extra for gas to get there and back on top of the higher retail store prices. I guess in some situations that's still adding a bit of value, but how often is that going to be enough to generate sales and pay your rent?

You seem to be assuming that people are hiking for 5 hours, uphill in a blizzard to get to their gaming stores...

That's not always the case.

How often can a physical retail store do this?

The store here in Oz that I buy from when I buy stuff from Oz has been doing it for more than 20 years now. I was buying from them by mail order before the internet was even a thing. When internet shopping started to become a thing they set up a webstore offering discounts accross the board, and they've remained competitive, and one of Oz's biggest independant games retailers, for that entire time.

The idea that physical stores can't compete with the online traders is a myth. They can. Many just choose not to.

 insaniak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't have lots of gaming space available then why is anyone going to come into your store?

Some people prefer to see what they're buying. And some don't want to wait for it to come in the mail.

But waiting for the store to order it is fine? I get what you're saying, and I agree to an extent (I'm more likely to immediately buy things that are available than order it online, even with a discount) but if I have to order it from the store anyways, why not just order it online, save more money, probably get it faster and not have to make another trip down?


For example, my FLGS doesn't have a lot of Warmachine stock, it's like a rack or two and some boxes on a shelf (mostly Battleboxes). So 99.9% of anything I want, I have to ask the owner to order it, he has to check the distributor and hope it's in stock (which often enough it "shows 0 in stock"), then I have to hope he actually gets it and saves it for me lest someone else see it and buy it.

In that circumstance, ordering online saves me money and time.

WayneTheGame wrote:
But waiting for the store to order it is fine?

Is it?

I wouldn't think so. If I'm going to a store that carries the range that I'm wanting to buy, I expect them to have what I want, unless it's something really obscure or a particularly large quantity. If they don't, I don't generally bother going back.

That's just me, though.

 insaniak wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...

Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.

Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines.

Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.



Something actually approaching on topic: I will say this... it irks the gak out of me when i pre-order something and i don't get it on release day. It's rare, but it does happen.

 Haight wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...

Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.

Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines.

Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.

It might be a Queensland thing. In NSW, I manage to find burritos fething everywhere. Quality is the main issue - some people just can't fething make them properly.

Must have something to do with Australia not sharing a border with Mexico or something like that.

 Ghaz wrote:
Must have something to do with Australia not sharing a border with Mexico or something like that.

The way our current government is trying to change things you'd think we did.

 Ghaz wrote:
Must have something to do with Australia not sharing a border with Mexico or something like that.

No excuse! I don't share a border with Belgium, and i like chocolate.

 insaniak wrote:
It's not just about the information on the box, but about the thing you're buying being a tangible 'thing'. Or simply about proving that the thing that you're paying for actually exists, and you're not just throwing your money away into the ether.

I don't understand this at all. It might have been a valid point back in 1995, before online shopping was common, but it's 2015 and buying stuff online is normal. I'm sure there are still a few old people who don't like the internet, but I don't see how there can be enough of them in an area to support a store. And I certainly don't see how buying models online is any different from buying books/computer parts/pizza/whatever online, things most of us take for granted in 2015.

As an example, just look at how amazon killed the physical bookstore industry. It turns out that once you establish that online shopping isn't a scam most customers don't care about going into a store and looking at the book they're about to buy, they just want the cheapest possible price. And so a lot of stores went out of business, what was left mostly consolidated into a few major chains, and only a few local bookstores still cling to life by providing exceptional service and focusing on the used book market (which isn't as easy to do online).

You seem to be assuming that people are hiking for 5 hours, uphill in a blizzard to get to their gaming stores...

No, I'm just assuming average travel times in the US. Let's say it's about 15 miles to the store, a pretty reasonable average for specialized retail. That's at least 45 minutes of time and ~$3-4 of gas, and not exactly ideal for an impulse buy. If I decide right now that I want a new model kit I can either order it tonight and get it early next week, or I can waste time and money getting it this weekend. Is it really worth it to pay an extra 20% or more to get something a day or two early? Maybe. Can you sustain a business with just that kind of purchase? I doubt it.

The store here in Oz that I buy from when I buy stuff from Oz has been doing it for more than 20 years now. I was buying from them by mail order before the internet was even a thing. When internet shopping started to become a thing they set up a webstore offering discounts accross the board, and they've remained competitive, and one of Oz's biggest independant games retailers, for that entire time.

So, when you say they "remain competitive", do you mean that their prices are higher but you're willing to pay them, or that their prices are equal to online stores?

The idea that physical stores can't compete with the online traders is a myth. They can. Many just choose not to.

It's not a myth at all, it's just common sense. The physical store has higher expenses, so the online store can sell at a much lower price without losing money (or making so little profit that it's not worth staying in business). And the online store can very likely afford to cut their prices even lower and make up for a narrower profit margin with a higher sales volume, since they're selling to customers across a large geographical area instead of the relatively small number of potential customers within easy driving distance. The best the physical store can do is offer a modest discount and make up the difference with better service and a good community, and that means having gaming space.

 Peregrine wrote:
I don't understand this at all. It might have been a valid point back in 1995, before online shopping was common, but it's 2015 and buying stuff online is normal.

For those who buy online.

There are an awful lot of people who don't.

No, I'm just assuming average travel times in the US. Let's say it's about 15 miles to the store, a pretty reasonable average for specialized retail. That's at least 45 minutes of time ...

If it takes you 45 minutes to drive 15 miles, I would recommend living somewhere else.

If I decide right now that I want a new model kit I can either order it tonight and get it early next week, or I can waste time and money getting it this weekend.

Or stop in to the store on your way home from work. Or when you're going past on your way to the supermarket. Or whatever.

Not everyone games store is tucked away in Diagon Alley.

Is it really worth it to pay an extra 20% or more to get something a day or two early?

That would be up to the individual, of course. To some, yes, it's worth paying a little extra to know that when they hand over their cash they will immediately have what they wanted, rather than to order online, find out in two or three days time that the product they ordered isn't actually in stock, and then wait a week or more while the store orders another one.

Can you sustain a business with just that kind of purchase?

The continued existence of brick and mortar stores would seem to suggest that you can.

So, when you say they "remain competitive", do you mean that their prices are higher but you're willing to pay them, or that their prices are equal to online stores?

Their prices are equivalent to any of the other Australian discounters.

It's not a myth at all, it's just common sense.

Except stores are doing it, and have been for decades.

Sure, it might be harder. But it's clearly not impossible, because it's happening.

The best the physical store can do is offer a modest discount and make up the difference with better service and a good community, and that means having gaming space.

...assuming you disregard people's other reasons for choosing to buy from a physical store instead of online...

 insaniak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
But how many people are in this group, and willing to pay extra for it? I can understand wanting to check your finecast model before buying it, but that's a special case. Most of the time you really aren't going to be getting much information out of looking at the box on the shelf instead of the catalog pictures online.

Quite a lot, actually. It's not just about the information on the box, but about the thing you're buying being a tangible 'thing'. Or simply about proving that the thing that you're paying for actually exists, and you're not just throwing your money away into the ether.

By the same token, it's also a lot easier to spend "virtual" money in your account or on your CC then physically part with cold, hard cash.

The store here in Oz that I buy from when I buy stuff from Oz has been doing it for more than 20 years now. I was buying from them by mail order before the internet was even a thing. When internet shopping started to become a thing they set up a webstore offering discounts accross the board, and they've remained competitive, and one of Oz's biggest independant games retailers, for that entire time.

Who are they? If they're competitive on price and shipping, I'm more than happy to support an Australian store rather than UK ones. Most seem to want an additional 25-50% over the exchange rate and then pay postage on top of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

It might be a Queensland thing. In NSW, I manage to find burritos fething everywhere. Quality is the main issue - some people just can't fething make them properly.

Kebabs, mate. Proper Turkish ones. Not rubbish roadside 3am ones or loaf-meat or Gyros-wannabes in pide bread.

Again, can be very hard to find. Luckily I have 2-3 great locations!

 insaniak wrote:
For those who buy online.

There are an awful lot of people who don't.

An awful lot in total numbers maybe, but in percentages? And are there enough in a given area that they can support a store that makes no effort to market to the people who aren't stuck in 1995?

And again, look at what amazon has done to the bookstore industry. The independent local bookstore is pretty much dead, because it turns out that "people who hate online shopping" isn't enough when the online discount store takes most of the customers away.

If it takes you 45 minutes to drive 15 miles, I would recommend living somewhere else.

I mean 45 minutes total, not each way. At least 15-20 minutes each way, plus some time in the store. Potentially more, depending on traffic, how much you obey speed limits, etc. And this is pretty typical for specialized retail stores. I live fairly close to at least two major malls and it would take me at least 30 minutes of driving time in good traffic just to drive to and from the closest electronics store, decent clothing store, etc. Other places would have been 20-30 minutes each way, and these were all pretty nice places to live. The US is just spread out like that.

Or stop in to the store on your way home from work. Or when you're going past on your way to the supermarket. Or whatever.

And in the US it just doesn't work like that very often. Sure, some people are lucky enough to have a game store on their way to/from something else, but that's pretty rare. Grocery stores are all over the place, and you probably aren't more than 5-10 minutes from one unless you live in the middle of nowhere. Game stores are much rarer, and much more spread out. For example, I have 5ish game stores in a ~30 mile radius, and three different grocery stores within walking distance. So it's extremely unlikely that a game store would be on that route, and even if it was I might not be going out to buy food for a few days and the online order won't be much slower.

That would be up to the individual, of course. To some, yes, it's worth paying a little extra to know that when they hand over their cash they will immediately have what they wanted, rather than to order online, find out in two or three days time that the product they ordered isn't actually in stock, and then wait a week or more while the store orders another one.

This assumes that your hypothetical store has everything you want in stock at all times. In my experience this is not a very good assumption unless you need to buy paint or a "common" GW kit. Given that this hypothetical store is focused enough on obsessive cost cutting to remove their gaming space is it really reasonable to assume that they'll spend a lot of money to maintain a full selection of everything you want to buy? Or is it more likely that they'll have a bunch of MTG packs, a standard GW shelf and paint rack, and maybe the starter sets for a few other games?

The continued existence of brick and mortar stores would seem to suggest that you can.

And most, if not all, of those brick and mortar stores have gaming space available to bring in customers. Every single gaming store I've ever been to in the US has had at least a decent amount of gaming space. And I can't imagine any of them staying in business if they decided to remove it.

Their prices are equivalent to any of the other Australian discounters.

Ok, maybe this is just something odd about the Australian market and all of your weird GW-imposed price and sales rules. In the US I have never seen a physical store that matches the discount available online, and anecdotal evidence from other people suggests it's the same elsewhere. The closest you can get is stores that give a discount that is smaller, but enough to make up for not paying shipping costs on small orders (paint, single 28mm models, etc) where flat-rate shipping from online sellers is the highest percentage of the price.

Except stores are doing it, and have been for decades.

Again, maybe this is just an Australian thing? Maybe your online discounters just can't get their stock cheap enough to offer good discounts, or the market isn't competitive enough to drive online store prices down and they just take the extra profit while selling at full physical store prices?

...assuming you disregard people's other reasons for choosing to buy from a physical store instead of online...

I'm not disregarding them, I'm objecting to the claim that there are enough of these people who hate online shopping for a store with no gaming space to be successful, especially in areas where other stores do have gaming space.

Heres a solution....do both.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
For those who buy online.

There are an awful lot of people who don't.

An awful lot in total numbers maybe, but in percentages? And are there enough in a given area that they can support a store that makes no effort to market to the people who aren't stuck in 1995?

Well we know at least 42% of GW's sales come from their stores, 13 from mail order, 9% from FW and BL, the remaining 36% is independents of which we don't know how many sales are online or not. So I'd say a safe bet would be to say over half GW's sales are in stores rather than online. How much over half is slightly harder to guess, I'd say if you ignored FW which you can only buy online anyway, I'd think it would be around the 75% mark.

 Peregrine wrote:
Again, maybe this is just an Australian thing?

I'd say it's odd even for Australia. None of the stores near me have ever matched online prices, but they're usually within a couple of %, so only a few dollars different on a $100 purchase which is small enough for me to not really care unless it's a bulk purchase of several hundred dollars. On such bulk purchases my FLGS used to give me bigger discounts which further closed the gap between online and in store purchases, but I haven't done a bulk purchase in years and that FLGS is closed now, I don't know how typical that was.

When I wanted an imperial knight (40k), I'd buy it from FLGS. When I wanted an entire Vampire Counts army, Bartertown. 1-2 things? Store. Huge investment? Online.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well we know at least 42% of GW's sales come from their stores, 13 from mail order, 9% from FW and BL, the remaining 36% is independents of which we don't know how many sales are online or not. So I'd say a safe bet would be to say over half GW's sales are in stores rather than online. How much over half is slightly harder to guess, I'd say if you ignored FW which you can only buy online anyway, I'd think it would be around the 75% mark.

Yeah, but remember, we're talking about a hypothetical store with no gaming space available. GW's own stores might be doing their best to cut gaming space down to the bare minimum, but they still have it and can benefit from the customers it brings in.

 Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well we know at least 42% of GW's sales come from their stores, 13 from mail order, 9% from FW and BL, the remaining 36% is independents of which we don't know how many sales are online or not. So I'd say a safe bet would be to say over half GW's sales are in stores rather than online. How much over half is slightly harder to guess, I'd say if you ignored FW which you can only buy online anyway, I'd think it would be around the 75% mark.

Yeah, but remember, we're talking about a hypothetical store with no gaming space available. GW's own stores might be doing their best to cut gaming space down to the bare minimum, but they still have it and can benefit from the customers it brings in.

I didn't realise we were talking about that hypothetical Honestly I still think it would probably be more than half. A lot of GW customers are kids who are less likely to buy online and even amongst adults I'm sure there's plenty that prefer walking in to a physical store and buying a physical product. If they didn't then a lot of stores would be closed, not just hobby stores. You talk about the independent local bookstore being "pretty much dead" because of Amazon, yet a lot of those stores still exist, maybe not as many as there were 20 years ago, but enough of them are still around to suggest the demand is still there.

 Peregrine wrote:
And again, look at what amazon has done to the bookstore industry. The independent local bookstore is pretty much dead, because it turns out that "people who hate online shopping" isn't enough when the online discount store takes most of the customers away.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that the book industry and the miniature industry aren't the same, do have know how much of the decline of book stores is due to Amazon, and how much if it is due to the rapid spread of e-readers, tablets and smart phones?

This assumes that your hypothetical store has everything you want in stock at all times.

No, just that they have the item that you're looking for. Which you know, by looking on the shelf. As opposed to the all-too prevalent habit on webstores of listing everything as being in stock when it isn't.


And as I mentioned earlier, I don't go back to a store that doesn't have what I want in stock.

Given that this hypothetical store is focused enough on obsessive cost cutting to remove their gaming space...

Are they? That's a new twist on the discussion.

Being unwilling to pay rent on a store big enough to have gaming tables is not automatically 'obsessive cost cutting'.

...is it really reasonable to assume that they'll spend a lot of money to maintain a full selection of everything you want to buy?

From my experience, most customers won't special order stuff that they want. Hell, most won't even ask if you sell something that they can't find on the shelf. They'll just leave and go elsewhere.

So yes, it's reasonable to expect a store that wants to remain in business for any length of time to actually keep a full range of the product that pays their bills on the shelf.

And most, if not all, of those brick and mortar stores have gaming space available to bring in customers. Every single gaming store I've ever been to in the US has had at least a decent amount of gaming space. And I can't imagine any of them staying in business if they decided to remove it.

And this, I think, is one of those cultural differences between US gamers and just about everyone else. Because the rest of the world largely doesn't play in stores. I can count on one hand the number of stores that I've been into that had more than one or two tables, and quite a few didn't have any tables at all.

Ok, maybe this is just something odd about the Australian market and all of your weird GW-imposed price and sales rules. In the US I have never seen a physical store that matches the discount available online, and anecdotal evidence from other people suggests it's the same elsewhere. The closest you can get is stores that give a discount that is smaller, but enough to make up for not paying shipping costs on small orders (paint, single 28mm models, etc) where flat-rate shipping from online sellers is the highest percentage of the price.

The standard online discount down here has floated around 20-25% for some time. The store I was talking about has a flat 20% off as well.

There have been plenty of other Oz stores I've seen over the years offering 20 or 25% off, although most don't last long. Then again, most games stores don't last long, period.

I'm not disregarding them, I'm objecting to the claim that there are enough of these people who hate online shopping for a store with no gaming space to be successful, especially in areas where other stores do have gaming space.

While it's definitely growing, I think you would be surprised by just how many people still don't shop online.

 insaniak wrote:

And most, if not all, of those brick and mortar stores have gaming space available to bring in customers. Every single gaming store I've ever been to in the US has had at least a decent amount of gaming space. And I can't imagine any of them staying in business if they decided to remove it.

And this, I think, is one of those cultural differences between US gamers and just about everyone else. Because the rest of the world largely doesn't play in stores. I can count on one hand the number of stores that I've been into that had more than one or two tables, and quite a few didn't have any tables at all.

Actually I seem to recall someone (Sean_OBrien I think) posting figures suggesting that only a fraction of wargamers game in stores in the USA as well. I think it more depends on specific location rather than country. If you live in a big city, you're liable to have several gaming stores within driving/walking/public transport distance and probably less likely to have a large house that you can host games in. If you live in a more rural area or a small town (and the USA is very spread out, even compared to Australia where most of our population seems to be around a few major cities) then you're less likely to have a game shop within a hop skip and a jump to play at and probably more likely to host games at your house.

To add to this, my rule of thumb is buying bits off ebay and old oop RT stuff on ebay, and then for every 3-4 times I do that, buy a box of what I need from the FGLS (usually tacticals. Mostly paint.)

I don't mind paying extra. The store lets me use their airbrush and play games/attend painting classes.

If I buy a box or two, then I am paying for the enviroment and the store. I could save more (a lot,) but, I feel I am getting a good value.

 insaniak wrote:
Ignoring for a moment the fact that the book industry and the miniature industry aren't the same, do have know how much of the decline of book stores is due to Amazon, and how much if it is due to the rapid spread of e-readers, tablets and smart phones?

Most of it. The steep decline of the independent local bookstores happened before e-readers/smartphones/etc. It was about people buying paper books online at discounts the local stores couldn't match, not paper customers moving to digital books.

And as I mentioned earlier, I don't go back to a store that doesn't have what I want in stock.

Yeah, I can imagine a store staying in business with people like you as their only customers...

Being unwilling to pay rent on a store big enough to have gaming tables is not automatically 'obsessive cost cutting'.

It is when gaming tables are one of the best ways of getting customers (and potential customers) into the store, and the biggest advantage a physical store has over an online store. It's GW-style shortsighted thinking where you save money today in exchange for damaging your ability to get new sales in the future.

From my experience, most customers won't special order stuff that they want. Hell, most won't even ask if you sell something that they can't find on the shelf. They'll just leave and go elsewhere.

So yes, it's reasonable to expect a store that wants to remain in business for any length of time to actually keep a full range of the product that pays their bills on the shelf.

You took that out of context. I'm not talking about whether or not it's reasonable for you as a customer to want it, I'm just pointing out that the kind of store that cuts out gaming space to save money probably isn't going to waste expensive shelf space on a bunch of niche products. They'll have MTG packs (which pay the bills), GW starter sets, etc, but I can't imagine that kind of store owner deciding to keep a full inventory of stuff with a very low sales volume. I'd expect that kind of diverse inventory at a store where the owner cares about building a long-term community even if the profit numbers on an item aren't ideal.

And this, I think, is one of those cultural differences between US gamers and just about everyone else. Because the rest of the world largely doesn't play in stores. I can count on one hand the number of stores that I've been into that had more than one or two tables, and quite a few didn't have any tables at all.

Maybe it is. I can understand only playing at home or in private clubs, I just can't understand why anyone would do that but regularly go into stores and pay more money for the same stuff they can buy online. If I'm not using a store's gaming tables then why would I pay 90% of retail when I can get the same kit for 80% of retail online? I'd go to the store and buy paint if I needed it asap, but minor paint/glue/etc purchases aren't keeping a store in business.

While it's definitely growing, I think you would be surprised by just how many people still don't shop online.

But how many of them are in the wargaming hobby? I'm sure there are some old people who don't want to learn all that new computer stuff, but what percentage of the total sales in the hobby are they responsible for? I can't imagine it's very much compared to the younger people who have grown up with the internet and online shopping.

 insaniak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
And again, look at what amazon has done to the bookstore industry. The independent local bookstore is pretty much dead, because it turns out that "people who hate online shopping" isn't enough when the online discount store takes most of the customers away.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that the book industry and the miniature industry aren't the same, do have know how much of the decline of book stores is due to Amazon, and how much if it is due to the rapid spread of e-readers, tablets and smart phones?

Actually, It's mostly due to the rise and fall of the big book retailers, like Barnes and Noble and Borders. They wiped out the independents. Then bad management and Amazon wiped them out. However, many used book stores survived and continue to survive--by selling used books at or under $4 for paperback, the cheapest a used, physical book goes for on Amazon. E-readers might be contributing to Barnes and Noble's demise, but Borders and most of the dead independents were already gone by the time those became much of a factor.

It's somewhat similar to how GW crushed local competition, then became fat and decadent just in time to miss out on the new golden age of Tabletop Gaming.

Anyway, in my limited experience there needs to be a mix of things at the local store to attract all kinds of customers. For example, Mercenary Market had huge tables but not much shelving, which made them a poor place to shop.





Yes, I go to real stores to buy books or games. I like to have that full experience. I like to be at places rather than looking at sites.

Mercenary Market was roughly 2/3 gaming area. What little stock they had would have taken, at most 1/5 of their square footage. Community or not, you're not going to make sufficient sales with stock that thin.

Speaking of variety, it's funny how Majestix quit comics to be a card & clix shop. There's every chance they will be more profitable than ever.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yeah, I can imagine a store staying in business with people like you as their only customers...

I'm a little puzzled at this reaction, to be honest.

A store's sole purpose for existing is to sell stuff. If you walk in for something the store supposedly sells, and they don't have it... that's a failure on the part of the store.

It is when gaming tables are one of the best ways of getting customers (and potential customers) into the store, and the biggest advantage a physical store has over an online store.

If that's your chosen business model, sure.

It's only that 'biggest advantage' though if it actually translates into sales, and that's going to depend on your customer base. It's not actually a case of just setting up some tables and opening the doors, and the cash will roll in.

If the local guys who like to play in store aren't big spenders, then you're going to be better off focusing on the other big advantage that a physical store has over online - face to face customer service.

I'm just pointing out that the kind of store that cuts out gaming space to save money probably isn't going to waste expensive shelf space on a bunch of niche products.

Yes, I got that you were saying that. I disagree that those two things automatically go together. It's entirely likely that a store owner could understand that having a full product range is a drawcard while simultaneously not thinking that having gaming tables is worth the bother.

If I'm not using a store's gaming tables then why would I pay 90% of retail when I can get the same kit for 80% of retail online?

Because you can have it immediately. Because if you're not sure what you need, the guy in the shop can (theoretically, at least) help you to figure it out. Because you're a kid who doesn't have access to online shopping. Because you're an adult who doesn't trust online shopping. Or simply because you're one of those people who likes going into an actual shop, and looking at actual merchandise, and talking to actual people.

But how many of them are in the wargaming hobby? .

Probably quite a few. From a brief google of internet shipping statistics, the spread across the different age brackets is surprisingly even. It's not just 'old people who don't know computers' who don't want to shop online.

 insaniak wrote:
A store's sole purpose for existing is to sell stuff. If you walk in for something the store supposedly sells, and they don't have it... that's a failure on the part of the store.

I agree, it's a failure. But there's a difference between being disappointed with the store's failure and deciding you'll never go back to that store because one time they didn't have an item you wanted in stock.

It's only that 'biggest advantage' though if it actually translates into sales, and that's going to depend on your customer base. It's not actually a case of just setting up some tables and opening the doors, and the cash will roll in.

Of course it isn't that simple, simply having some 6x4 tables doesn't even guarantee that anyone will want to play on them. But it's a minimum prerequisite to compete with the other options for buying stuff, whether it's another store in your area that does have gaming space, or an online store with lower prices that you can't afford to match.

If the local guys who like to play in store aren't big spenders, then you're going to be better off focusing on the other big advantage that a physical store has over online - face to face customer service.

But "focusing on the other things" doesn't mean "get rid of the first group entirely". Nor do gaming tables and customer service conflict at all, unless you insist on using GW's idiotic "one employee per store" idea and have a group of players that needs constant supervision.

It's entirely likely that a store owner could understand that having a full product range is a drawcard while simultaneously not thinking that having gaming tables is worth the bother.

But how is that product range drawing in customers? Remember, miniatures as a whole aren't even all that profitable compared to MTG. So why pay for shelf space to hold a bunch of niche products that might sit there collecting dust for months (or even years!) before someone wants to buy them when you can open an even smaller store and focus on selling the high-profit items that are guaranteed to sell quickly?

Because you can have it immediately. Because if you're not sure what you need, the guy in the shop can (theoretically, at least) help you to figure it out. Because you're a kid who doesn't have access to online shopping. Because you're an adult who doesn't trust online shopping. Or simply because you're one of those people who likes going into an actual shop, and looking at actual merchandise, and talking to actual people.

In order of mention:

You can only have it immediately if you consider "waste my valuable time making an extra trip out to the game store" to be "immediate" and you're lucky enough to have a local store that has it in stock. Remember, you aren't there for gaming, so you can't just decide to grab that interesting model off the shelf while you're already there.

You aren't likely to get good advice on what to buy from a no-gaming store because the kind of person who is willing and able to give useful advice is able to give that advice because they care about the games they sell. And therefore they're likely to care about building a community and have gaming space available. The "profit first" guy who runs a pure business with no gaming space isn't going to care about finding you the perfect new model for your army, they're just going to tell you how awesome MTG is and suggest that you buy a few boxes.

Kids who don't have access to online shopping aren't ideal customers anyway because they don't have much money. Sure, take their money when you can, but good luck supporting a business with it.

If you're an adult who doesn't trust online shopping in 2015 you're probably a paranoid tinfoil hatter hiding in your survival bunker and you don't have any money left to spend on games after stocking up on a billion rounds of ammunition for your gun collection.

If you like the experience of shopping in a store and are willing to pay extra for it then congratulations, you're in the minority. As other businesses have demonstrated there aren't enough people like you for an independent local business to survive without offering something (beyond the experience of buying in a store) that the online discount store can't give you.

Probably quite a few. From a brief google of internet shipping statistics, the spread across the different age brackets is surprisingly even. It's not just 'old people who don't know computers' who don't want to shop online.

Could you give a link to the statistics you're looking at? Are they for the general population, or focused on the kind of people who buy miniatures? It's an important difference because the typical gaming customer is probably more likely than an average person to use online shopping. They're at least middle class (so no "can't afford internet at home" reasons), they're probably interested in various geek hobbies that involve computers and the internet, they have smartphones and are familiar with buying digital stuff for them, etc. Yeah, it's anecdotal evidence, but everyone I know in the same 30-ish age group buys stuff online and the only people I've ever met who have been reluctant to shop online have been from older generations.

 insaniak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
But how many people are in this group, and willing to pay extra for it? I can understand wanting to check your finecast model before buying it, but that's a special case. Most of the time you really aren't going to be getting much information out of looking at the box on the shelf instead of the catalog pictures online.

Quite a lot, actually. It's not just about the information on the box, but about the thing you're buying being a tangible 'thing'. Or simply about proving that the thing that you're paying for actually exists, and you're not just throwing your money away into the ether.

Exactly, there's more to it than the box photo. You can generally get a better look even at the box than you'll find online, you might even get to open it. Obviously with blisters it's easier still as you can see in.
I find it much better with paints though; I can see what the color is actually going to look like, rather than what shows on my screen.
Plus it's nice to deal with a tangible and take it home right then.

Browsing a shelving system is also better; you're more likely to come across stuff you wouldn't if you were using a webstore.


I'm sure I'm not the only one who works all day, so if I order something online I probably have to go collect it from a post office depot anyway, so why not just go to the store and buy it myself?

 Peregrine wrote:
I agree, it's a failure. But there's a difference between being disappointed with the store's failure and deciding you'll never go back to that store because one time they didn't have an item you wanted in stock.

You've just been waxing lyrical about how actually getting to a games store is a herculean task, but you can't see how someone might be less interested in a return trip if the first one shows that the store doesn't stock what they need?


For the rest, I suspect it's probably better if we just agree to disagree here, before some passing store owner trips over the armchair and dislocates the eyes he's busy rolling frantically...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
Browsing a shelving system is also better; you're more likely to come across stuff you wouldn't if you were using a webstore.

Yeah, particularly when looking for conversion fodder, or for compatibility between different miniature ranges, having the stuff right there in front of you is a heck of a lot easier. Particularly since a lot of webcarts really aren't set up for casual browsing (Yes, GW and your 4 million pound monstrosity, I'm looking at you...)

I'm sure I'm not the only one who works all day, so if I order something online I probably have to go collect it from a post office depot anyway, so why not just go to the store and buy it myself?

A very good point. Although I got around that one by just having stuff delivered straight to work instead

 insaniak wrote:
You've just been waxing lyrical about how actually getting to a games store is a herculean task, but you can't see how someone might be less interested in a return trip if the first one shows that the store doesn't stock what they need?

I didn't say it was some kind of herculean task, I just said that it's an inconvenience. I personally wouldn't go to a store that doesn't stock a particular item that I want, but I also wouldn't go to a store that does stock that item unless I play my games there. If I'm not going there for gaming I'll just buy it online and never even bother to check if they have it in stock. But my post there was talking about it from your perspective: if you value the in-store experience enough to pay extra for it then why would you refuse to go back over a single out of stock item? One thing being out of stock one time doesn't mean that you'll continue to have the same problem, and if you're serious about that policy you'll pretty quickly run out of local stores to shop at.

 Peregrine wrote:
if you value the in-store experience enough to pay extra for it then why would you refuse to go back over a single out of stock item? .

As with most things in real life, it's not quite that black-and-white.

If I have a store that I'm going to regularly, I'm going to have a reasonable idea of the sort of range that they keep. If what I want matches what they stock then there's unlikely to be a problem. If, however, I start finding that I'm going in looking for specific things that they turn out to not have, it's not going to take too long before I start wondering if there's a better alternative.


If it's a new store that I've never been to before, and I'm walking out of there empty-handed because they didn't have what I wanted, there's no positive experience there to encourage me to come back. Particularly if I noticed while I was there that the range on the shelf was poor. If there's going to be a reasonable chance that they're going to have to special order whatever it is that I'm looking for, I might as well just stay at home and order it online myself... so I'm not going to be in any hurry to go back to that store.

 insaniak wrote:

And yet the largest and most popular webstores have almost always been businesses that also had physical stores...

I know, but the emphasis on that is "have been". It's all changing with them being unable to keep apace of fast-growing online markets.