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 insaniak wrote:

 dameanone wrote:
But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks?

Uh... yes? If that's his price, then why would I expect to get it for anything different?

...but negotiation happens in all forms of business.

I get that it does happen. I just have no interest in it. I'm going to go with whoever offers me the better deal with the least amount of work on my part.

Not sure about New Zealand, but here in the states if you're not negotiating with your contractors, or at the very very very least, getting multiple quotes to use as negotiation leverage, you are getting raped on the price.

Particularly emergency service contractors (like HVAC when your heat or AC isn't working, Plumbing when you have a leak if its a nasty one, pest removal when there's an angry raccooon on the loose in your attic, etc).

Most of the subs i know (and i work in the construction industry) that do single point spot service calls like this build in a gigantic amount of margin for two reasons: First it is unlikely you'll get repeat business in the near future ; once the probelm is fixed, its fixed. And two, they expect you're going to haggle, so they bump the price up.


Most subs i know have a markup factor of 2.5 on materials, and 2.0 on actual labor costs (though it matters shop to shop, of course). So there's room there. If you can get 10-15% off, you're probably getting a good deal.

However the model is much, much different than the MSRP model. There are still list prices and multipliers and markups at work, but there is no place where the faucet manufacturer says "If i ever leak, i recommend that my faucets leak be charged to the owner at a rate of 75".

It's a tempting model to use, but it's not accurate. One is a good, the other is a skilled trade service. One does not involve labor at the point of contact with product, one does. Etc etc.


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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
That is the norm in the United States.

Yes, we get that. The question was 'Why?'... because to those of us from places where the price on the shelf is the price you pay, it seems a really awkward and un-customer-friendly practice.

Because that's the way its always been and it teaches Little Timmy to do percentages to figure out if he has enough cash if he wants to buy something. Its probably because there's no law dictating that the advertised price include sales tax on anything (other than gasoline) and some charitable organizations (churches, etc.) are tax-exempt. Absolutely no one here finds it awkward or an unfriendly practice to the customer, its just the way the world works.

I lived in the states for a while and I found it annoying, I mentioned it to my American friends and their response was basically "that's just the way it works... but you're right it'd be better if they just told you what you were going to pay". It also wasn't consistent, some places DID list the price including tax, other places didn't.

It's probably less annoying when you pay everything by card, because whatever it just goes on your card. It's more annoying when you are paying things in cash. It would be nice if they listed both price with and without tax, but if it's one or the other I'd prefer with tax.

But anyway, I'm not really sure what this has to do with the original topic because I came in to this conversation late

As for the original topic, I don't really think I should feel compelled to try and uphold the business practices of my FLGS. If they find they aren't making money off their tables it's up to them to change their business practices to make it profitable, not up to me to support it. Relying on your customer to feel compelled to buy things to use the tables is IMO a bad business practice.

Side note.... there's a movement to do just this ; have a price on an item, or its scannable with smart-phone barcode, etc., reflect all prices. Would be very nice. Particularly when you live somewhere like me, where if you drive 90 minutes, you can be in 6 different states, and between them they have 5 different rates of sales tax.

You can have different rates of sales tax between countries in the EU but it doesn't really bother anyone that much that it's not made explicit to you here. Some EU countries are quite tiny so it's easy to cross from one to another.

I find it interesting and weird that you guys have a different system. It would allow me to show off my brilliant ability to do percentages quickly in my head though!

On discounts, it's been my experience that discounts are pretty rare in Europe, at least at the shops I have gone to. The one in Essex I frequented had a small discount, and I did buy a lot of stuff there, but I played there regularly so I would have spent without the discount. My "local" here in Germany does not discount unless it's trying to clear stock, and on some stuff like the Bones dragon I bought you are paying over the MSRP because they convert directly from Dollars to Euros. I don't speak German well enough to gauge if they are particularly friendly or not, but they don't need to be really in my face to have my business. I just like having somewhere to wander in and browse, and perhaps bump into likeminded people. It's much the same as I feel about bookshops. I would not like it if all the retail premises became warehouses on industrial estates because for the things I am interested in the activity of wandering around and seeing if anything catches my eye is quite enjoyable.

I think store credit for table space is a good idea. Like make a purchase or pay $5 and get the table for X amount of time. Our shop in Dublin used to do that and I had no problem with it. I guess the gamers in the US might feel more (oooh, controversial word ) entitled to free table space. (Oh, did he go there? He went there. Don't take it too hard guys )

As a store owner, posts like this make me sick. I honestly never understand why a game store is treated different to any other business with people whining about the prices to our faces.

That being said, why should you support a store vs going online


1. Game support. If the store supports the games with tournaments, campaigns, leagues etc.

2. Player introduction. Playing at home is neat and all but stores are what creates new players and keeps the hobby alive. You can buy online, but I imagine the interest waits fast if you can't find regular games.

3. Employee knowledge. Game stores should have extensive knowledge to help you find games, learn games and the like. Saving YOU time.

4. The store should have great service (honestly, that should go without saying)

5. It's part of the community. This is up to you, and tbh, is the same for any small business. It's part of your local community. Money you spend there. Goes to local roads, local schools and the like.


Topics like this never work though. People who buy online, tend to only buy online. People who find value in their store, buy there.

For those who assuage their guilt by saying "oh, I buy a pot of paint or candy bar once a month, that's enough right?" It's not. If you buy everything online and use store tables, and that store has good service, good terrain, is clean and the rest, then it deserves your money and has done more than enough to earn it. You are just being a leech by ignoring this.

Re: table space the big thing that I've seen is that in the US a game store is expected to provide table space, it's part of what they offer besides just stock. A store that didn't have any tables would likely not be in business very long, because they offer basically nothing, and then are just a hobby store not a game store (the type that sells model kits). The only store I ever went to that didn't have space was basically like that, it was specialized in model kits and had I think a few Reaper miniatures and D&D magazines and paint (Ral Partha, back then) which was it. Other than buying things once in a while there was no reason to bother going to the place. That's very unlike Europe where you have more clubs that rent halls or similar places and have members pay dues to cover it, and a shop is just where you buy things.

My big issue though is that when I compare saving a chunk of money buying online versus paying a lot more locally, the question that springs to my mind is what benefit does buying it locally offer me? I have to wait a week or more, assuming what I want can be ordered from the distributor. I have to (in my case) remember to check with the owner to make sure it actually came in or risk it being put on the shelf for anyone to buy (this has happened to myself and several others more than a few times), and when it does arrive I'm saving like $10 at best. Or I can order online, get a 30% discount, know it's in stock, and get it in 3 days. The store loses on basically every count beyond what is essentially sympathy.

I generally buy small things there, like (since I play Warmachine) the $9.99 or even $14.99 blisters with characters. Sometimes I'll buy a box if it's there already and I don't want to wait. But I can't bring myself to essentially waste a lot of money by going through hoops to order a big item or multiple items from the store because there's basically no benefit to me and only drawbacks: Wait time, paying more, never sure if the item is in stock, etc.

That's lose-lose to me.

One thing that another store does, which I would be cool with (I don't go there though as they are focused on 40k and nothing else) is they have a basically $20/month "club" that you can buy into and it gives you I think 20% discount, like preference when it comes to tables (not sure what that means, like if you can show up and kick walk-ins off of a table), and some unrelated stuff for Magic. I'd pay for something like that at a store to "cover" my game time.

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
As a store owner, posts like this make me sick. I honestly never understand why a game store is treated different to any other business with people whining about the prices to our faces.

That being said, why should you support a store vs going online


1. Game support. If the store supports the games with tournaments, campaigns, leagues etc.

2. Player introduction. Playing at home is neat and all but stores are what creates new players and keeps the hobby alive. You can buy online, but I imagine the interest waits fast if you can't find regular games.

3. Employee knowledge. Game stores should have extensive knowledge to help you find games, learn games and the like. Saving YOU time.

4. The store should have great service (honestly, that should go without saying)

5. It's part of the community. This is up to you, and tbh, is the same for any small business. It's part of your local community. Money you spend there. Goes to local roads, local schools and the like.


Topics like this never work though. People who buy online, tend to only buy online. People who find value in their store, buy there.

For those who assuage their guilt by saying "oh, I buy a pot of paint or candy bar once a month, that's enough right?" It's not. If you buy everything online and use store tables, and that store has good service, good terrain, is clean and the rest, then it deserves your money and has done more than enough to earn it. You are just being a leech by ignoring this.

But as a store owner how do you feel about people who already have established armies and don't really need to add anything to them? Do you expect them to buy junk they don't need out of obligation?

I'm fully happy for a store to charge for tables, or do something like starting a club with a membership fee and that fee will be reimbursed through store vouchers or anything like that. If I play in a store I'd much rather just pay the owner $30 (or whatever) to use the tables and have it reimbursed if I do decide to buy something than buy $50 worth of stuff that I either don't need or could get much cheaper elsewhere and only $20 goes to the store owner anyway.

It has nothing to do with guilt and I think you'll find most people who don't want to buy at an expensive FLGS they play at aren't doing it because they want to be leeches but rather because we don't want to play guesswork like "err, so how much do I need to buy this month to be pulling my weight?". If an FLGS can't justify tables because not enough people are buying product then I expect the FLGS owner to come up with a better business plan, I don't expect to have to burn money trying to uphold a business plan I don't even agree with.

If you find no value in any of my points, then playing at a store isnt for you.


Really? "Guesswork?"





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm curious as to what you'd like to see added to a business plan that you feel a store is lacking besides what I posted

As a store owner, what do you feel you provide BEYOND just a place to play? In my opinion that's not enough anymore. You're competing with a hefty discount and guaranteed stock from ordering online.

The way I see it I have two choices:

1) Order from the store, hope what I want is in stock with the distributor, hope that my shop can order it, hope it arrives (I've ordered things and they've never shown up), hope that I get told that it arrived so it doesn't go to someone else (I've found at least 2-3 things I've ordered just placed out on the shelf when I was never even told it came in), and last but not least pay basically full retail because of a tiny discount and sales tax

or

2) Order online, save 30%, know it's in stock, typically get free shipping, and then know it'll arrive within 3-4 days because the online store sends it priority mail, and save enough money to maybe buy another unit that I was on the fence about.

That's no contest to me. The store basically only offers tables, nothing else of value, and I don't think that's enough to get 100% of my business. Some things here and there, sure, but not everything. Important things that are either very expensive or that I need right away I'd always choose to order online, because either I'm saving a ton of money and/or because I'll get them fast. Things I don't really need or aren't crazy expensive, sure I'll order them from the local store.

I don't NEVER buy locally. Just not the important things. A $50 box is maybe the upper limit of what I'd consider buying/ordering at the store. Multiple things though tend to get ordered online just for the discount on them all (which often makes at least one of the things free essentially)

Also, as regards that person with a fully established artists army. Let's assume the obvious


1. I know there's people who don't need to buy something. They are not my main goal

2. Nobody is ever finished buying minis, we are collectors, it's what we do.

3. I know and expect that people buy online. I don't expect my store to be the one stop for everybody, that's naive

Your store is not a charity. Unless they are really hurting for money and you like everything about them, then don't buy stuff in general, unless you need too.

WayneTheGame wrote:
As a store owner, what do you feel you provide BEYOND just a place to play? In my opinion that's not enough anymore. You're competing with a hefty discount and guaranteed stock from ordering online.

The way I see it I have two choices:

1) Order from the store, hope what I want is in stock with the distributor, hope that my shop can order it, hope it arrives (I've ordered things and they've never shown up), hope that I get told that it arrived so it doesn't go to someone else (I've found at least 2-3 things I've ordered just placed out on the shelf when I was never even told it came in), and last but not least pay basically full retail because of a tiny discount and sales tax

or

2) Order online, save 30%, know it's in stock, typically get free shipping, and then know it'll arrive within 3-4 days because the online store sends it priority mail, and save enough money to maybe buy another unit that I was on the fence about.

That's no contest to me. The store basically only offers tables, nothing else of value, and I don't think that's enough to get 100% of my business. Some things here and there, sure, but not everything. Important things that are either very expensive or that I need right away I'd always choose to order online, because either I'm saving a ton of money and/or because I'll get them fast. Things I don't really need or aren't crazy expensive, sure I'll order them from the local store.

You mean besides the things I posted? Events. Tournaments, campaigns. Extensive knowledge. Customer service, new players. A meeting space, an ear to listen to your woes, social acceptance. I can go on


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Lol, gamers be hard to please


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last night I ran an X Wing tournament. We had 26 people show up. That is a store service. You got to meet and hang with 26 like minded people. Try doing that in your garage .


Now the question is, does that equate to value towards the discount difference to you? If not, why not?


I also ran a modern tournament with 21 people, yesterday a standard with 23. Saturday, we had a Store Championship with 47 for Netrunner..all store services


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I regularly make lists and talk forces for hours on end with people (for some things I honetly don't care about). I help them choose the right unit for their army, speak on the pros and cons. That's a service the same as a Best Buy salesperson talking to you about a TV

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
If you find no value in any of my points, then playing at a store isnt for you.


Really? "Guesswork?"

You didn't address the question I asked either:

EDIT: But as a store owner how do you feel about people who already have established armies and don't really need to add anything to them? Do you expect them to buy junk they don't need out of obligation? I see you answered that in a separate post.

Also, I do actually play in stores, or did at least, I play so little these days I probably don't classify anymore But one of the stores I used to play in had a lot of tables and would rent them out to groups, so you could play on them freely during the day but most evenings it was booked out by one of the local clubs. The other store I played in I do often buy stuff from, but that's because they have prices that are competitive and they are conveniently located.

I'm curious as to what you'd like to see added to a business plan that you feel a store is lacking besides what I posted

Well like I said, if the store owner feels that they aren't making enough off tables they can try something else, as far as I can see it's the store owner's responsibility to have a financially viable system for handling their tables.

 Sergeant Horse wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
As a store owner, what do you feel you provide BEYOND just a place to play? In my opinion that's not enough anymore. You're competing with a hefty discount and guaranteed stock from ordering online.

The way I see it I have two choices:

1) Order from the store, hope what I want is in stock with the distributor, hope that my shop can order it, hope it arrives (I've ordered things and they've never shown up), hope that I get told that it arrived so it doesn't go to someone else (I've found at least 2-3 things I've ordered just placed out on the shelf when I was never even told it came in), and last but not least pay basically full retail because of a tiny discount and sales tax

or

2) Order online, save 30%, know it's in stock, typically get free shipping, and then know it'll arrive within 3-4 days because the online store sends it priority mail, and save enough money to maybe buy another unit that I was on the fence about.

That's no contest to me. The store basically only offers tables, nothing else of value, and I don't think that's enough to get 100% of my business. Some things here and there, sure, but not everything. Important things that are either very expensive or that I need right away I'd always choose to order online, because either I'm saving a ton of money and/or because I'll get them fast. Things I don't really need or aren't crazy expensive, sure I'll order them from the local store.

You mean besides the things I posted? Events. Tournaments, campaigns. Extensive knowledge. Customer service, new players. A meeting space, an ear to listen to your woes, social acceptance. I can go on


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol, gamers be hard to please


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last night I ran an X Wing tournament. We had 26 people show up. That is a store service. You got to meet and hang with 26 like minded people. Try doing that in your garage .


Now the question is, does that equate to value towards the discount difference to you? If not, why not?

Have an exalt. This is a great series of points.


I've known a lot of store owners. They are part Sam from Cheers, part psychologist, part pubescent advisor on the strange mystical creature known as the Girl, they are certainly unpaid daycare on weekends. That last one... i don't leave my son at the store unattended when he plays pokemon, but i literally see lots of parents drop their kids off at 11:00 am, and come get 'em at 5-6 pm.

THis is on top of the goods and services and expertise the store provides.


I mean... honestly... no one is going to change anyone's mind here on this topic. But stores offer a LOT more than just product on a rack to me. Which is why i buy there. I like taking my son to the store so he can pokemon where i can keep an eye on him while my buds and i play some WHFB. While i can game at my house, as i mentioned it sucks in winter time as the space is unheated currently, and i have a dog and a missus as well which can lead to distractions. Also to anyone say "well i don't have kids so i don't care". Fair. Were you ever one of these drop off kids ? Then you benefited, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

I also think that referring to stores as charities is a bit harsh. It's just that they offer a product, and the product tends to glaze over all the other services by virtue of the fact its a retailer, and we're not used to service oriented retail. The product is the cashflow driver, not the services, the services are what keep you coming back. Unfortunately the product is expensive and available on line for moderately cheaper. That's the conundrum. Paying 80 bucks or 100 bucks as a choice has a way of making you forget all the benefits of store patronage.

Height made a good point, I wonder is it because we are a retail store, that a lot of the service aspect is ignored by people.


I suppose a good way to compare is calling us a restaurant where your meals are miniatures

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Height made a good point, I wonder is it because we are a retail store, that a lot of the service aspect is ignored by people.


I suppose a good way to compare is calling us a restaurant where your meals are miniatures

Well do we tip you guys for your service? If not. Then no not really a restaurant just a specialized storefront.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Height made a good point, I wonder is it because we are a retail store, that a lot of the service aspect is ignored by people.


I suppose a good way to compare is calling us a restaurant where your meals are miniatures

Well do we tip you guys for your service? If not. Then no not really a restaurant just a specialized storefront.

You know....tipping is an American thing


And this was an comparison.



(Also, people do tip us at my store, we have a built in cafe)

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Last night I ran an X Wing tournament. We had 26 people show up. That is a store service. You got to meet and hang with 26 like minded people. Try doing that in your garage .

Now the question is, does that equate to value towards the discount difference to you? If not, why not?

Nope, it doesn't. It doesn't because while it might be nice that the store is doing that... there are also local clubs that I can arrange games and tournaments through.

I regularly make lists and talk forces for hours on end with people (for some things I honetly don't care about). I help them choose the right unit for their army, speak on the pros and cons. That's a service the same as a Best Buy salesperson talking to you about a TV

I find this a separate issue. If I go in to a store and ask for advice it's usually because I intend to buy from that store. My local hobby store (doesn't deal in wargames, just planes/cars/remote control/etc) I'll often go in and ask the guy for advice on what techniques to use, what products he recommends, and I'll buy the stuff he convinces me is worth buying (and he doesn't waste my time/money trying to sell me junk I don't need).

For the most part though... I don't ask shop keepers for advice. Most advice a shop attendant will give you, you could have not only learned but surpassed with 15 minutes of googling. The reason I ask that specific guy at the hobby shop questions is because he has some incredible looking models in his display cabinet that I know he did himself.

But anyway, I don't consider the service of asking a shop keeper for advice and buying products at the shop based on the advice the same as buying from the store you play at. The latter has a far larger disconnect, weeks or months will pass between me buying models and playing with them, sometimes I'll go months without playing a game but will be buying product, sometimes I'll go months without buying but still playing regularly, sometimes I'll do neither for months at a time.

I think tables in a FLGS are more akin to pool tables in a pub. It might be a free pool table, if so, cool, if I want to buy a drink while I play pool I'll do that, but I won't feel compelled to sit down and have a whole meal just because the pool table was free. Maybe they charge a dollar or two per game, if so, cool, if I want to play pool I'll pay the price to play it.

I'm not going to feel guilty when I order stuff online instead of the FLGS I play at because if the FLGS wanted money out of me directly for using their tables then I'd pay it (as long as it was still good value), if they want me to buy product they need to offer me something compelling to do that, which frankly when it comes to wargames is simply a competitive price and a convenient location.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Last night I ran an X Wing tournament. We had 26 people show up. That is a store service. You got to meet and hang with 26 like minded people. Try doing that in your garage .

Now the question is, does that equate to value towards the discount difference to you? If not, why not?

Nope, it doesn't. It doesn't because while it might be nice that the store is doing that... there are also local clubs that I can arrange games and tournaments through.

I regularly make lists and talk forces for hours on end with people (for some things I honetly don't care about). I help them choose the right unit for their army, speak on the pros and cons. That's a service the same as a Best Buy salesperson talking to you about a TV

I find this a separate issue. If I go in to a store and ask for advice it's usually because I intend to buy from that store. My local hobby store (doesn't deal in wargames, just planes/cars/remote control/etc) I'll often go in and ask the guy for advice on what techniques to use, what products he recommends, and I'll buy the stuff he convinces me is worth buying (and he doesn't waste my time/money trying to sell me junk I don't need).

For the most part though... I don't ask shop keepers for advice. Most advice a shop attendant will give you, you could have not only learned but surpassed with 15 minutes of googling. The reason I ask that specific guy at the hobby shop questions is because he has some incredible looking models in his display cabinet that I know he did himself.

But anyway, I don't consider the service of asking a shop keeper for advice and buying products at the shop based on the advice the same as buying from the store you play at. The latter has a far larger disconnect, weeks or months will pass between me buying models and playing with them, sometimes I'll go months without playing a game but will be buying product, sometimes I'll go months without buying but still playing regularly, sometimes I'll do neither for months at a time.

I think tables in a FLGS are more akin to pool tables in a pub. It might be a free pool table, if so, cool, if I want to buy a drink while I play pool I'll do that, but I won't feel compelled to sit down and have a whole meal just because the pool table was free. Maybe they charge a dollar or two per game, if so, cool, if I want to play pool I'll pay the price to play it.

I'm not going to feel guilty when I order stuff online instead of the FLGS I play at because if the FLGS wanted money out of me directly for using their tables then I'd pay it (as long as it was still good value), if they want me to buy product they need to offer me something compelling to do that, which frankly when it comes to wargames is simply a competitive price and a convenient location.

And there in is the burn. You don't consider our service a service, so game stores are not for you.



Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.

Not sure about New Zealand, but here in the states if you're not negotiating with your contractors, or at the very very very least, getting multiple quotes to use as negotiation leverage, you are getting raped on the price.

Particularly emergency service contractors (like HVAC when your heat or AC isn't working, Plumbing when you have a leak if its a nasty one, pest removal when there's an angry raccooon on the loose in your attic, etc).

Most of the subs i know (and i work in the construction industry) that do single point spot service calls like this build in a gigantic amount of margin for two reasons: First it is unlikely you'll get repeat business in the near future ; once the probelm is fixed, its fixed. And two, they expect you're going to haggle, so they bump the price up.


Most subs i know have a markup factor of 2.5 on materials, and 2.0 on actual labor costs (though it matters shop to shop, of course). So there's room there. If you can get 10-15% off, you're probably getting a good deal.

However the model is much, much different than the MSRP model. There are still list prices and multipliers and markups at work, but there is no place where the faucet manufacturer says "If i ever leak, i recommend that my faucets leak be charged to the owner at a rate of 75".

It's a tempting model to use, but it's not accurate. One is a good, the other is a skilled trade service. One does not involve labor at the point of contact with product, one does. Etc etc.

This 100%. But it can also apply to tangible goods. A car? Do you walk into a dealership and just pay list? In most dealerships in the states if that's a yes, the salesperson is going to laugh hysterically once you leave. I work in IT and I expect service/products to be negotiated. Whether its $500 or $5000. Worst case scenario the answer you will get is "no, or that's the best price I can offer"

One thing that people need to remember and understand.


Is that if you feel you don't need game stores, they also probably also don't need you.

The people who feel like they are helping a charity, probably are, as that store is most likely not being ran like a business.

If you come into my store with an entirely net bought army, spend your time complaining to me about prices, stock etc, then don't be surprised when I smile, shrug my shoulders at you and disengage to talk to somebody worth my time and effort. Will you feel put out? Possibly. Will it make you shop online more? Probably, but then, you were going to anyway

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.

I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
If you come into my store with an entirely net bought army, spend your time complaining to me about prices, stock etc, then don't be surprised when I smile, shrug my shoulders at you and disengage to talk to somebody worth my time and effort. Will you feel put out? Possibly. Will it make you shop online more? Probably, but then, you were going to anyway

Oh that's fine then because I probably never would have engaged you in conversation anyway I have no problem with you trying to sell to people who are looking to buy instead of casually chatting with me, lol.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.

I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt

I'm pretty sure people do. But then, what do I know, I only see it on a daily basis.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
If you come into my store with an entirely net bought army, spend your time complaining to me about prices, stock etc, then don't be surprised when I smile, shrug my shoulders at you and disengage to talk to somebody worth my time and effort. Will you feel put out? Possibly. Will it make you shop online more? Probably, but then, you were going to anyway

Oh that's fine then because I probably never would have engaged you in conversation anyway I have no problem with you trying to sell to people who are looking to buy instead of casually chatting with me, lol.

 dameanone wrote:

Not sure about New Zealand, but here in the states if you're not negotiating with your contractors, or at the very very very least, getting multiple quotes to use as negotiation leverage, you are getting raped on the price.

Particularly emergency service contractors (like HVAC when your heat or AC isn't working, Plumbing when you have a leak if its a nasty one, pest removal when there's an angry raccooon on the loose in your attic, etc).

Most of the subs i know (and i work in the construction industry) that do single point spot service calls like this build in a gigantic amount of margin for two reasons: First it is unlikely you'll get repeat business in the near future ; once the probelm is fixed, its fixed. And two, they expect you're going to haggle, so they bump the price up.


Most subs i know have a markup factor of 2.5 on materials, and 2.0 on actual labor costs (though it matters shop to shop, of course). So there's room there. If you can get 10-15% off, you're probably getting a good deal.

However the model is much, much different than the MSRP model. There are still list prices and multipliers and markups at work, but there is no place where the faucet manufacturer says "If i ever leak, i recommend that my faucets leak be charged to the owner at a rate of 75".

It's a tempting model to use, but it's not accurate. One is a good, the other is a skilled trade service. One does not involve labor at the point of contact with product, one does. Etc etc.

This 100%. But it can also apply to tangible goods. A car? Do you walk into a dealership and just pay list? In most dealerships in the states if that's a yes, the salesperson is going to laugh hysterically once you leave. I work in IT and I expect service/products to be negotiated. Whether its $500 or $5000. Worst case scenario the answer you will get is "no, or that's the best price I can offer"

It all depends on what you're buying. If you're just getting an off the shelf product, I wouldn't imagine there'd be much negotiating going on, you either pay it or you go elsewhere.

When it comes to very expensive items like cars or if you're buying in bulk, that's where negotiation comes in a bit more.

If I'm just buying a box of models off the shelf, I'll either pay the price listed or I'll move on, If I'm buying $1000 worth of models I might try and negotiate a discount because I know they're making more than a few bucks off me.

As for plumbers and whatnot... errr... I don't really know what convention is here because I so rarely get people in to do work. I think about 6 years ago I had an electrician in to do some work. I imagine if you're employing someone who has a very high hourly rate AND is charging a large markup on their parts I might consider trying to negotiate a better price. But it comes up so rarely I don't really know, lol.

Sometimes me and a friend have chipped in to buy say €120 worth of models, and the FLGS have offered a discount to make it worth our while. Foe less than that, its all online stores for me unfortunately.

For most entertainment spending I try to buy from local businesses at least half the time. I get some videos from my local store even though Netflix is cheaper. Likewise I order about half my books through the store, even though it costs me €1-€2 more per book. However I don't have that option with 40k, as its astronomically more expensive than anything else I buy.

I generally have no problem with people buying from online if they don't play in store.

However, if you use a store's gaming space regularly, even just to hang out with friends, you should try to buy there within reason.

Most stores these days have reward/discount programs too. My local store that I frequent has a 10% loyalty program, and an additional 5%-10% off special orders and pre-orders. This easily narrows the gap between online ordering to a 5%-10% difference.

I'd gladly pay that 5-10% over discounter prices for a well maintained play space in my area, it's hard here to get together at a someone's house due to logistics or families.

 Sergeant Horse wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.

I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt

I'm pretty sure people do. But then, what do I know, I only see it on a daily basis.

You do? How does this guilt manifest itself? Are you sure it's not just social awkwardness? Or people just not wanting to talk to you? People might feel no guilt at playing at a store they don't buy from, it doesn't mean they want to have to be confronted about it by a store owner.

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Casually chatting is different to listening to you complain.

People actually do that? They come in to your store and complain about the prices to you? I feel like you must live in a strange place with strange people

Also, you strike me as someone who falls into the "Doesn't need a game store" category.

No I don't really need a store, I do need somewhere to play, and the two can often overlap.

A store can be a good place to game and I won't feel guilty if I don't buy from the store nor will I feel offended if the store owner decides they need to make money off tables by charging for their use or charging a membership fee to use the tables.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Nobody is asking you to feel guilty for buying online, people know it happens, any guilt you personally feel is on you.

I'm pretty sure no one feels guilt, you're the one who suggested people were attempting to assuage their guilt

I'm pretty sure people do. But then, what do I know, I only see it on a daily basis.

You do? How does this guilt manifest itself? Are you sure it's not just social awkwardness? Or people just not wanting to talk to you? People might feel no guilt at playing at a store they don't buy from, it doesn't mean they want to have to be confronted about it by a store owner.

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
Casually chatting is different to listening to you complain.

People actually do that? They come in to your store and complain about the prices to you? I feel like you must live in a strange place with strange people

Also, you strike me as someone who falls into the "Doesn't need a game store" category.

No I don't really need a store, I do need somewhere to play, and the two can often overlap.

A store can be a good place to game and I won't feel guilty if I don't buy from the store nor will I feel offended if the store owner decides they need to make money off tables by charging for their use or charging a membership fee to use the tables.

Who says I confront them about it I do get people that apologise to me for buying online, I tell them, I'd rather just not be told.



By the way, tables fees do not work. They are a deathknell for a store. So with that being off the table, what do you do to pay for this place to play? Or do you just use it until it's gone and then wonder what happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The funny thing is, in all this, nobody has actually posted exactly WHAT they expect a store to offer (besides matching online prices which is a no go) to make them support local otyher than what I posted above


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I'll just check back in 8 hours and see if somebody does

If I'm just buying a box of models off the shelf, I'll either pay the price listed or I'll move on, If I'm buying $1000 worth of models I might try and negotiate a discount because I know they're making more than a few bucks off me.

As for plumbers and whatnot... errr... I don't really know what convention is here because I so rarely get people in to do work. I think about 6 years ago I had an electrician in to do some work. I imagine if you're employing someone who has a very high hourly rate AND is charging a large markup on their parts I might consider trying to negotiate a better price. But it comes up so rarely I don't really know, lol.

Yea man thats what I was trying to say. I wont haggle for a single box, but if I want to drop $500 on models I will at least ask if they are willing to give a discount.

By the way, tables fees do not work. They are a deathknell for a store. So with that being off the table, what do you do to pay for this place to play? Or do you just use it until it's gone and then wonder what happened.

Is that in your area? By me its unusual to not charge a table fee. In fact the most popular place outside of NYC in this area charges $5 for the day (its store credit). They regularly have 15-20 people playing.

 dameanone wrote:

If I'm just buying a box of models off the shelf, I'll either pay the price listed or I'll move on, If I'm buying $1000 worth of models I might try and negotiate a discount because I know they're making more than a few bucks off me.

As for plumbers and whatnot... errr... I don't really know what convention is here because I so rarely get people in to do work. I think about 6 years ago I had an electrician in to do some work. I imagine if you're employing someone who has a very high hourly rate AND is charging a large markup on their parts I might consider trying to negotiate a better price. But it comes up so rarely I don't really know, lol.

Yea man thats what I was trying to say. I wont haggle for a single box, but if I want to drop $500 on models I will at least ask if they are willing to give a discount.

And they usually will

 insaniak wrote:

 Haight wrote:
I just wanted to wrap my head around why you'd go to a store owned by someone you dislike. .

What makes disliking the owner a reason to not go to the store? His opinion of the owner doesn't change the existence of tables to play on, or put different stock on the shelves.

I completely stopped all purchases from a store when I got fired by one of the three owners for calling him out on fudging tournament results and screwing over one of my friends for first, just because the guy liked somebody else better. And yes, before you ask, I ran the tournaments. I knew the placements of the players. He fired me, I quit going and convinced my friends to quit going. Warhammer died almost overnight in his store.

If you hate a store owner, it's damn good reason not to go there: why help line his pocket? That's madness. But don't play there either. Eventually, something will set one of you off. And it's his store: I don't think he'd be the one asked to leave if an argument got heated enough that it could potentially lead to law officers being involved.

 Sergeant Horse wrote:
By the way, tables fees do not work. They are a deathknell for a store. So with that being off the table, what do you do to pay for this place to play? Or do you just use it until it's gone and then wonder what happened.

I dunno, the store near me seemed to do okay charging clubs to use the store tables in the evening and charging entrance fees to tournaments, and I think for the most part only a fraction of people who buy in a store use the tables casually anyway. I think you could do fees in a way that doesn't hurt your customer base too much (though certainly you could be stupid about it and do it in a way that does ).

The funny thing is, in all this, nobody has actually posted exactly WHAT they expect a store to offer (besides matching online prices which is a no go) to make them support local otyher than what I posted above

I'm pretty sure I did mention it somewhere... to support my local store they need to be competitively priced and located in a convenient place so that I'm not going out of my way. Not price matched, but just competitive, my FLGS has ~12% discount on GW prices which doesn't match or beat online prices but it's good enough for me to go there for the convenience of being able to grab stuff on my way home from work.

Typically I'm not going to go to a store, see a product, then go home and buy online just to save myself a few bucks, though I will if it's a decent amount of money like on a bulk purchase. So maybe if there were sign above the counter "Ask about discounts on bulk products!" I might be more inclined to do that as well. But the fact is I don't usually buy bulk any more because I already have too many models, so whether I buy from my local store or buy online mostly comes down to availability, none of the local stores stock much WW2 stuff and that's mostly what I've bought recently, so it's all come from online.