So, I did a little mini-review, and put some thoughts together. Think anyone would be interested?

https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2015/04/24/review-codex-eldar-craftworlds/

Thank you for this! Wonderful insight into the Codex, especially the balancing factors.

One thing I would like to know is that whether the bonuses (eg, Fire Dragons get +1 on damage chart and so on) are special rules on the models or in the formations?

Interesting (thanks) if IMO highly questionable review.

First I note you are an Eldar player - is this your main army (if you hav a main army) as the article does seem to be written very much as a defence or counterpoint to the perceived (and in my mind very legitamte) problems?

the trick I think GW has managed to pull off is that they have got people looking at various units and saying ‘OMG, how do I fight such a beast?’ And yet, within the structure of the army, everything balances – as a games designer myself, I am impressed. This is exactly what you want to aim for when you release a new army/army list.

Hmm - maybe - or maybe if a large amount of people says that this one specific army codex has been given EVERYTHING everything in direct oppoisio to the majority of not all of the previous codexs then its becomes an odd one out and a major balance issue - they may actually have a point, Especially if this is not continued.......which with GW is impossible to know.

Anything that can close in and nobble Marine Equivalents, as they are called, will be well suited to engaging Jetbikes.

No mention of the difficulty of actually getting into CC with a Eldar jet bike unit?? The fact that every single bike can take a special/heavy wepaon upgrade?

And I see how an allied knight never, ever earns its points during a battle.

Really - You have never had a IK gets it points back? I am TBH a bit shocked by that

Basically, I am saying people are looking at various Eldar units in fear, without appreciating what life is like for the Eldar player (I know, I know, poor little Eldar player, life might actually happen to him…).

Or they look at a Codex where EVERY single unit is buffed or reduced in pts cost, they look at their own where the opposite is true and wonder how does this even begin to look like fair, balacned or even worth playing against.

They look at the VAST amount of formation options - soem armies have NONE or ONE and wonder how come this is all for one specific faction and Sod the rest. Remeber all these come with freebie upgrades to an already OP Codex...........

I would have to disagree with your balancing factors for the most part (A de player excited because his bikes take 2-3 turns to reach the craftworld bikes, and the craftworld bikes can delete an equivalent number of bikes in 1-2 turns?).

The weakness of the list being melee doesn't matter too much. Tau had this same "weakness" and ruled the roost for a while. Necrons are able to use melee effectively because they are so tough. The other melee based lists aren't really taking advantage of this supposed strength they have and the weakness their opponent has.

You can also spam min squads of bikes to alleviate the damage deepstikers and melee units can cause. The idea that the cannon might be better than the scatter laser is...awkward, and makes me think you are unsure of what factors into a stronger choice. In a game like 40k, the extra foot range is massive. It ensures that, outside of deepstrike, troops can not catch eldar.

You also say that bikes are expensive (they aren't, at 17 ppm). Who wouldn't pay 3 points on marines to give them a vastly increased speed, JSJ, psuedo rending on the basic weapons? The 10 points per model for +12" range on a fast unit, +2 strength, +2 shots is something I would buy in a heartbeat. Compare them to other bikers, and tell me who has the best bikes in the game.

Eldar aren't even that bad in combat. WraithKnights are disgusting, Striking Scorpions are very good, Banshees are now very playable as well. They are certainly above Tau, Guard, and other weak melee lists.

 Frozocrone wrote:

One thing I would like to know is that whether the bonuses (eg, Fire Dragons get +1 on damage chart and so on) are special rules on the models or in the formations?

That particular one (and all the ones in that section of the review) are unit special rules - the detachment/formations rules are all above that section.

 Mr Morden wrote:

First I note you are an Eldar player - is this your main army (if you hav a main army) as the article does seem to be written very much as a defence or counterpoint to the perceived (and in my mind very legitamte) problems?

No, I am a staunch Dark Angels player (up the Lion!). The Eldar are a sideshow for me, always have been, always will be. I am quite prepared to argue with anyone, long and hard, about how good the Dark Angels Codex is though

 Mr Morden wrote:
which with GW is impossible to know.

This is true. However, I would point out, contrary to popular opinion round here (!), GW is not staffed by idiots. I mean, I am sure they have a few, statistically speaking, but they generally don't rise to a position in the design studio.

 Mr Morden wrote:


No mention of the difficulty of actually getting into CC with a Eldar jet bike unit?? The fact that every single bike can take a special/heavy wepaon upgrade?

Two points here. Yes, getting into CC will be an issue, but not insurmountable, especially with finite table space. However, it is the ideal way of dealing with them, not the only way. Which leads us on to the heavy weapons issue.

Honestly, shoot them. Force that Jink. A Jinking Jetbike unit still needs to be respected (as a 300-odd point unit should), but it is no longer as scary. I really think they will be best in units of 5, with maybe two upgraded to carry a heavy weapon (which should probably not be a Scatter Laser). Easier for an Eldar player to keep alive, but not a holy terror to face either.

Put another way, if someone goes for the super ten-bike unit, with added Farseer, what are they going to do when the first Battle Cannon template (say) lands on them and covers three or four bikes?

Seriously, force the Jink, like you do with any shooty skimmer.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Or they look at a Codex where EVERY single unit is buffed or reduced in pts cost, they look at their own where the opposite is true and wonder how does this even begin to look like fair, balacned or even worth playing against.

I do wonder what the new Dark Angels Codex will look like in these terms, if it is indeed one of the next books to appear...

However, at the end of the day, the Craftworld book _will_ cause you problems. But then, being a new book, it should. I just don't think it will cause the issues people think it will.

Then again, I might be wrong Check out my first review of the Grey Knights Codex, I thought it was garbage as an army when I first read it. I now think it is pretty cool


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
I would have to disagree with your balancing factors for the most part (A de player excited because his bikes take 2-3 turns to reach the craftworld bikes, and the craftworld bikes can delete an equivalent number of bikes in 1-2 turns?).

I have to admit, I have made the presumption here that the Dark Eldar is not a twit, and uses his minimum size Bike units in a way that avoids LOS to the Craftworld Bikes. YMMV, of course.

Akiasura wrote:
The weakness of the list being melee doesn't matter too much.

I didn't say the list was melee weak (it isn't), just the Jetbikes.

Akiasura wrote:
makes me think you are unsure of what factors into a stronger choice. In a game like 40k, the extra foot range is massive. It ensures that, outside of deepstrike, troops can not catch eldar.

I have been doing this for a little while

Akiasura wrote:
You also say that bikes are expensive (they aren't, at 17 ppm). Who wouldn't pay 3 points on marines to give them a vastly increased speed, JSJ, psuedo rending on the basic weapons? The 10 points per model for +12" range on a fast unit, +2 strength, +2 shots is something I would buy in a heartbeat. Compare them to other bikers, and tell me who has the best bikes in the game.

I'm a Dark Angels player, I have been watching over people's bikes for a long time.

However, I was referring to the big ten bike block - 300 points is a serious investment whichever way you look at it.

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

One thing I would like to know is that whether the bonuses (eg, Fire Dragons get +1 on damage chart and so on) are special rules on the models or in the formations?

That particular one (and all the ones in that section of the review) are unit special rules - the detachment/formations rules are all above that section.

 Mr Morden wrote:

First I note you are an Eldar player - is this your main army (if you hav a main army) as the article does seem to be written very much as a defence or counterpoint to the perceived (and in my mind very legitamte) problems?

No, I am a staunch Dark Angels player (up the Lion!). The Eldar are a sideshow for me, always have been, always will be. I am quite prepared to argue with anyone, long and hard, about how good the Dark Angels Codex is though

You are not helping your case. The DA codex is pretty bad, and has been one of the inferior codexes in pretty much every edition. It's not like BA or SW, which are SM +1, it's more SM -1.

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
which with GW is impossible to know.

This is true. However, I would point out, contrary to popular opinion round here (!), GW is not staffed by idiots. I mean, I am sure they have a few, statistically speaking, but they generally don't rise to a position in the design studio.

Source? GW made the daemons codex in fantasy, the grey knights fluff, this dex, the riptide, the allies matrix, the various nids codexes (pyrovore?) and a lot of other idiotic decisions.

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


No mention of the difficulty of actually getting into CC with a Eldar jet bike unit?? The fact that every single bike can take a special/heavy wepaon upgrade?

Two points here. Yes, getting into CC will be an issue, but not insurmountable, especially with finite table space. However, it is the ideal way of dealing with them, not the only way. Which leads us on to the heavy weapons issue.

Honestly, shoot them. Force that Jink. A Jinking Jetbike unit still needs to be respected (as a 300-odd point unit should), but it is no longer as scary. I really think they will be best in units of 5, with maybe two upgraded to carry a heavy weapon (which should probably not be a Scatter Laser). Easier for an Eldar player to keep alive, but not a holy terror to face either.

Put another way, if someone goes for the super ten-bike unit, with added Farseer, what are they going to do when the first Battle Cannon template (say) lands on them and covers three or four bikes?

Seriously, force the Jink, like you do with any shooty skimmer.

First, finite table space is fine. The tables are 6x4, with an eldar jetbike covering 48" of it in any given turn, so the eldar player can cover most of the board. Most enemy units do not have this luxury, and the eldar army is extremely fast with great shooting. They don't need to avoid you for 6 turns, they need to avoid you for 2-3 turns. This gains them such an advantage on attrition that they don't need it.
10 bikes fire 40 shots, ~27 hits, ~22 wounds, 7 and change dead marines a turn? So a bike squad can kill 14-21 marines before the marines will get them to a board edge unless they deepstrike.
Again though, I doubt anyone is going to take a large bike squad, it'll be several small ones.

Second, I see this mistake often. Jinking is NOT a weakness. The choice is death, in which case you wouldn't be able to shoot back anyway, or jinking, in which case at least you get to return fire somehow and survive to another round to continue to absorb shots.
Taking small squads means only a few bikes won't get to fire back.

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Or they look at a Codex where EVERY single unit is buffed or reduced in pts cost, they look at their own where the opposite is true and wonder how does this even begin to look like fair, balacned or even worth playing against.

I do wonder what the new Dark Angels Codex will look like in these terms, if it is indeed one of the next books to appear...

However, at the end of the day, the Craftworld book _will_ cause you problems. But then, being a new book, it should. I just don't think it will cause the issues people think it will.

Then again, I might be wrong Check out my first review of the Grey Knights Codex, I thought it was garbage as an army when I first read it. I now think it is pretty cool

Not a good track record there. Might want to stop appealing you authority further down.

MongooseMatt wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
I would have to disagree with your balancing factors for the most part (A de player excited because his bikes take 2-3 turns to reach the craftworld bikes, and the craftworld bikes can delete an equivalent number of bikes in 1-2 turns?).

I have to admit, I have made the presumption here that the Dark Eldar is not a twit, and uses his minimum size Bike units in a way that avoids LOS to the Craftworld Bikes. YMMV, of course.

First, you are assuming that the bikes are standing within charge range of LOS blocking terrain. Why would they do this? They have 36" range guns while the De army has to charge or die.
Second, a minimum squad size of CE jetbikes kills about 3-4 bikes. Overwatch kills another 1-2, so as long as the CE bikes get one shot off, the DE bikes are not a threat.
I guess I assumed the CE eldar player wasn't a twit and avoided the only placement that might kill him. YMMV of course.

MongooseMatt wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
The weakness of the list being melee doesn't matter too much.

I didn't say the list was melee weak (it isn't), just the Jetbikes.

Outside of a BA formation, how do you plan on entering melee with jetbikes? So far your suggestions have been pretty poor.

MongooseMatt wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
makes me think you are unsure of what factors into a stronger choice. In a game like 40k, the extra foot range is massive. It ensures that, outside of deepstrike, troops can not catch eldar.

I have been doing this for a little while

So have I? An appeal to authority will get you no where.

MongooseMatt wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
You also say that bikes are expensive (they aren't, at 17 ppm). Who wouldn't pay 3 points on marines to give them a vastly increased speed, JSJ, psuedo rending on the basic weapons? The 10 points per model for +12" range on a fast unit, +2 strength, +2 shots is something I would buy in a heartbeat. Compare them to other bikers, and tell me who has the best bikes in the game.

I'm a Dark Angels player, I have been watching over people's bikes for a long time.

However, I was referring to the big ten bike block - 300 points is a serious investment whichever way you look at it.

No one will take a big ten bike block. MSU is the way with Jetbikes. They don't need buffs to kill everything.
If you've been watching bikes for a long time, you must realize these are the strongest bikes ever released in the game?
Again, making an appeal to authority buys you nothing. Try addressing some points.

Sorry, but I immediately stop giving any credibility to anyone who infers you should be trying to get the uncatchable jetbikes into melee. Unless the eldar player is ready to lose them to buy time somewhere else, you are NOT catching them.

Your review is pretty much the whole-

its fair that some people are super rich and others are poor because the rich pay more taxes.

Or like saying its fair that the yankees have all the best players (arguably) because they have to pay them the most.



Just man up and say you are playing with the strongest codex in the edition.

For example, I play khorne daemonkin and know its not hot. I dont try to convince everyone it has fixed khorne melee or something that its not.


There is no use trying to explain how the best codex in 7th edition is not the best codex in 7th edition.

How do DE bikers get the edge over eldar jetbikes in melee, if eldar bikes kill de ones in range phase.

You're right, forcing a 300+ point unit to jink IS a big deal.

I'm planning on picking up Eldar to go with my Harlequins. Instead of buying a 300+ point unit I'm going to buy three 100+ point units. Now, when you force me to jink, it's not as big a deal. Yeah, my Warlock won't be enhancing as many of them as before, but having used the Harlequin jetbikes, I know that it's often better to Jink and then get an objective than just Jink and try to kill enemy units.

I think you're correct in that a straight slugfest, the Eldar probably aren't quite as insane as before (though they probably are), but I'll be playing them to take objectives and win games. If I can make my Harlequins win with their incredibly more frail and far more expensive units, I think the Eldar will be nutso for me.

"Just learn to play bro," is what I got out of it.

I have to question the skill of a player who has never made their points back with an Imperial Knight.

Yeah the reviewer totally didn't get the idea that Eldar players will take MSU of jetbikes thus you can't easily catch them, MSU negates the ability to catch and charge (if that was ever possible).

Also why not CAD? He says ah yes but the players will want the warhost, for some benefits? Well taking two CAD and getting two WK is another massive benefit so yes I'll stick with the CAD and get my wraith units without sinking in 1000p.

Not that I will because if I play Eldar it would just be fluffy Scorpions.

Terrible terrible review.

how can you say it's a terrible review? a review is someone giving their opinion on a subject and his is just as valid as anyone's. Granted, his experience may not be the same as others, but there is nothing wrong with that.

bullyboy wrote:
how can you say it's a terrible review? a review is someone giving their opinion on a subject and his is just as valid as anyone's. Granted, his experience may not be the same as others, but there is nothing wrong with that.

"I don't think God exists."

"I don't think Christianity exists."

Can you tell the difference?

bullyboy wrote:
how can you say it's a terrible review? a review is someone giving their opinion on a subject and his is just as valid as anyone's. Granted, his experience may not be the same as others, but there is nothing wrong with that.

Just because it is your opinion doesn't mean people cannot disagree with it.

bullyboy wrote:
how can you say it's a terrible review? a review is someone giving their opinion on a subject and his is just as valid as anyone's. Granted, his experience may not be the same as others, but there is nothing wrong with that.

Because he creates defences for balances using flawed examples, which is where it steps outside of opinion and into just being terrible and wrong. Its OK because its a 300p unit, ignores the fact that it doesn't have to be a 300p unit.

Awful because it creates scenarios as a defence without beginning to consider all the options or opinions.

If it was just someone saying, hey mate read it and I liked it, that is just a subjective opinion.

 Yarium wrote:
You're right, forcing a 300+ point unit to jink IS a big deal.

I'm planning on picking up Eldar to go with my Harlequins. Instead of buying a 300+ point unit I'm going to buy three 100+ point units. Now, when you force me to jink, it's not as big a deal. Yeah, my Warlock won't be enhancing as many of them as before, but having used the Harlequin jetbikes, I know that it's often better to Jink and then get an objective than just Jink and try to kill enemy units.
.

I think you are absolutely right, and I think that is indeed the way to get the best out of them.

 Quickjager wrote:
I have to question the skill of a player who has never made their points back with an Imperial Knight.

And now it starts

It is just an opinion, guys - and I did say I might be wrong!

Really don't think it is a game-killer though.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

bullyboy wrote:
how can you say it's a terrible review? a review is someone giving their opinion on a subject and his is just as valid as anyone's. Granted, his experience may not be the same as others, but there is nothing wrong with that.

Just because it is your opinion doesn't mean people cannot disagree with it.

correct, but your disagreement doesn't make it a terrible review. I have watched movies where I thought that it had terrible reviews, but I am wrong, the review is not terrible, just the movie.

It's pretty ba-roken.

Of course, it all depends what we see with the next few codexes.

I am hoping (naively) that they will all get a necron/eldar style power boost, with a re-balance of units. That'd make me very happy to play 40K.

Stopped reading here.

"Basically, I am saying people are looking at various Eldar units in fear, without appreciating what life is like for the Eldar player (I know, I know, poor little Eldar player, life might actually happen to him…).

The balancing factor in this Codex rests with the Craftworld Warhost detachment and its resulting formations. In a nutshell, you will never, ever have everything you want or even think you need in a battle. The points costs will knock you over every time and, when you look at your army, it will seem pitifully small."

So basically your argument about balance here is that Eldar still have to pay points for things and eventually they run out of points? Even though the points they pay for everything is always spend less get more?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:
You're right, forcing a 300+ point unit to jink IS a big deal.

I'm planning on picking up Eldar to go with my Harlequins. Instead of buying a 300+ point unit I'm going to buy three 100+ point units. Now, when you force me to jink, it's not as big a deal. Yeah, my Warlock won't be enhancing as many of them as before, but having used the Harlequin jetbikes, I know that it's often better to Jink and then get an objective than just Jink and try to kill enemy units.

I think you're correct in that a straight slugfest, the Eldar probably aren't quite as insane as before (though they probably are), but I'll be playing them to take objectives and win games. If I can make my Harlequins win with their incredibly more frail and far more expensive units, I think the Eldar will be nutso for me.

Smart players wont jink if it means they get more firepower the next turn. It is an offensive unit - it's just a bonus that they have meq surviability - they'd still be overpowered even with 5+ saves...

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
You're right, forcing a 300+ point unit to jink IS a big deal.

I'm planning on picking up Eldar to go with my Harlequins. Instead of buying a 300+ point unit I'm going to buy three 100+ point units. Now, when you force me to jink, it's not as big a deal. Yeah, my Warlock won't be enhancing as many of them as before, but having used the Harlequin jetbikes, I know that it's often better to Jink and then get an objective than just Jink and try to kill enemy units.
.

I think you are absolutely right, and I think that is indeed the way to get the best out of them.

 Quickjager wrote:
I have to question the skill of a player who has never made their points back with an Imperial Knight.

And now it starts

It is just an opinion, guys - and I did say I might be wrong!

Really don't think it is a game-killer though.

Well, when you argue from a position of authority, people will question that authority.
Especially since you refuse to argue any points anyone is making, and instead just claim you've been doing this for a while.

Review - Codex Eldar Craftworlders:

It's ballanced. L2P.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Stopped reading here.

"Basically, I am saying people are looking at various Eldar units in fear, without appreciating what life is like for the Eldar player (I know, I know, poor little Eldar player, life might actually happen to him…).

The balancing factor in this Codex rests with the Craftworld Warhost detachment and its resulting formations. In a nutshell, you will never, ever have everything you want or even think you need in a battle. The points costs will knock you over every time and, when you look at your army, it will seem pitifully small."

So basically your argument about balance here is that Eldar still have to pay points for things and eventually they run out of points? Even though the points they pay for everything is always spend less get more?

If it is indeed true that the formations preclude the eldar army from taking too many high-powered combinations in one army, that's a significant mitigating factor. It doesn't necessarily fix the problems, but it would render some of the claims that the army is overpowered objectively questionable if we knew that an eldar army could only reasonably fit one or two ridiculous things into a standard game's points limit. We will see whether this is indeed the case.

To the OP, your review is certainly an interesting counterpoint to much of the (hyperbolic?) worry of the last few days. One of the issues that you don't address, however, is the concern that people have that eldar are now (again?) a "no-fun" opponent. So much ranged D means that they can essentially delete an 800 point stompa without batting an eye using a unit with a fraction of the points cost, and suddenly you're down nearly half your points and the rest of the game is a foregone conclusion. The worry is that the eldar turn the game into "rock-paper-scissors" except that the eldar can bring both rock (cheap ranged D for heavy armour and monstrous creatures) and scissors (cheap spammable obsec jetbikes with 4 s6 shots apiece and MEQ durability for light/medium vehicles and massed infantry). If you believe these concerns are exaggerated I would be interested to hear your argument, but I am not satisfied that your codex review addresses them properly.

Balancing point one:

-You do not have to take them as 10 man units, you do not have to put a warlock with them, they can be taken as MSU therefore are not bothered about 3-5 models jinking.
-If you cannot see the advantage of 12" greater range and extra shots on a mobile jsj platform, in comparison to rending, you are missing a huge aspect of what makes them broken.
-They cannot be caught in combat by anything remotely near their points (even then hardly anything else), which will not be shredded first.

Balancing point two:

- I get the impression here that you are saying a knight is not worth 375pts because that is too many points to invest in it. Therefore leading to the conclusion that you believe knights overcosted. You are using this as an analogy to wraithknight, hence you are claiming the wraithknight is overcosted. Personally I find this absurd.
-The eldar players opponent also, suprisingly, has a points limit too. Therefore claiming we should think about the eldar player as the eldar player will never have enough points to take all they want is.. how shall I put this... an absolutely rediculous defence! That is why 40k has a points limit rather than just 'take everything you own'.
-You do not have to take the formations. CAD is a completely legitimate option.
-Eldar are not balanced because they have the option of taking 3 difficult to use deepstriking falcons - as the eldar player does not have to take 3 difficult to use deepstriking falcons.

Balancing point three:

-You have just basically said that eldar units are balanced because with formations they can get; auto 6" run and/or preffered enemy, shred, 3+ to cast psychic powers, free wargear, reroll 4+ reroll jink crimson hunters, ws/bs5 aspect warriors, bs5 +1 shot dire avengers, or battle focus wraiths. FOR FREE.
You are using this as a balancing factor in DEFENCE of eldar. This needs no more bullet points.

What is this with the formations being a limiting factor I think I may have genuinely missed a trick and I'll apologise if I have.

So the only way you get access to these units is through formations and you can't get them any other way, there is no CAD in Eldar codex right?

You can take any codex (that has access to troops and hq) as a CAD as it is in the brb.
BA for example has no 'CAD' in their dex, same with necrons if we want to compare closer to the new formations format. Doesn't mean you can't take them as CAD.

OK so all of this stuff about formations being limiting is crap.

bullyboy wrote:
how can you say it's a terrible review? a review is someone giving their opinion on a subject and his is just as valid as anyone's. Granted, his experience may not be the same as others, but there is nothing wrong with that.

Opinions are not sacrosanct.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

bullyboy wrote:
how can you say it's a terrible review? a review is someone giving their opinion on a subject and his is just as valid as anyone's. Granted, his experience may not be the same as others, but there is nothing wrong with that.

Opinions are not sacrosanct.

When opinions are based on faulty logic or facts the opinions no longer hold validity.
For example. This Eldar codex review does not hold validity because its conclusions are based on faulty logic, such as the "need" to use large units of bikes, formations are 'balancing' and WK's are undercosted.

 Mr Morden wrote:

You are not helping your case. The DA codex is pretty bad, and has been one of the inferior codexes in pretty much every edition. It's not like BA or SW, which are SM +1, it's more SM -1.

I am sorry, I do not follow - why does the DA Codex affect this one way or the other?

I would say,incidentally, that I would happily take a Dark Angels force against Craftworld Eldar with a reasonably expectation of victory...

 Mr Morden wrote:


Source?

I have spent time in the studio and have had cause to talk to some of the chaps there.

 Mr Morden wrote:


No mention of the difficulty of actually getting into CC with a Eldar jet bike unit?? The fact that every single bike can take a special/heavy wepaon upgrade?

I honestly thought the difficulties were self-evident, but outlined CC as an ideal. On the other hand, are you saying you have never engaged Jetbikes in close combat? There are ways. The Jetbikes may be caught out of position performing another duty (attacking another target, going for an objective, etc) and even the best players make mistakes from time to time. It is also possible to force the issue, baiting your opponent with one unit to slap them with another (nailed enough DE Jetbikes that way in the past...).

As for the weapons, I never said they were not potent However, they add more than 50% to the cost of the bike, and you are still left with an expensive weapon that is not exactly the most resilient in the game.

 Mr Morden wrote:
, with an eldar jetbike covering 48" of it in any given turn, so the eldar player can cover most of the board. Most enemy units do not have this luxury, and the eldar army is extremely fast with great shooting. They don't need to avoid you for 6 turns, they need to avoid you for 2-3 turns. This gains them such an advantage on attrition that they don't need it.

See, this is the thing - Jetbikes cannot have it both ways. They either get that great movement or they get the great attrition - they cannot have both in the same turn. Shoot across the table or shoot.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
10 bikes fire 40 shots, ~27 hits, ~22 wounds, 7 and change dead marines a turn? So a bike squad can kill 14-21 marines before the marines will get them to a board edge unless they deepstrike.

Great, they get seven Marines (who, it could be argued, had no business stepping out of their Rhino until the battlefield had been made a bit friendlier - but stuff happens, as they say). The Jetbike unit now gets hit by weapons that force Jink or death. Which brings us to...

Again though, I doubt anyone is going to take a large bike squad, it'll be several small ones.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
Second, I see this mistake often. Jinking is NOT a weakness. The choice is death, in which case you wouldn't be able to shoot back anyway, or jinking, in which case at least you get to return fire somehow and survive to another round to continue to absorb shots

I would argue this is not correct - it is about degradation of the unit. If they don't Jink, great, some dead elves. If they do, their firepower is eroded in the next turn quite effectively. That does not neutralise the unit, obviously, but it has bought your army a little extra survivability - better to force them to make a Jink (which they can easily fail) than to get the full effect of their weaponry.

Keep them on the back foot, and you have the initiative.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
Taking small squads means only a few bikes won't get to fire back.

That is true, and I think it is absolutely the way to use them in most cases (not all, concentration of firepower always has its uses). However, smaller units are, by definition, less durable. The same thinking applies, what changes is the units you match against them.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
First, you are assuming that the bikes are standing within charge range of LOS blocking terrain. Why would they do this? They have 36" range guns while the De army has to charge or die.

A DE army most certainly does not have to charge or die. Also, DE Jetbikes, from a standing start, can cover quite a large portion of the table if they move and assault. Make it two units, and those CE Jetbikes are not going to stay safe for too long. Something in the Eldar army is going to actively hunt them down - which plenty of units can do, I grant you, but they are then going after piddly little units rather than doing their proper jobs, which plays into the hands of the DE player.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
Second, a minimum squad size of CE jetbikes kills about 3-4 bikes. Overwatch kills another 1-2, so as long as the CE bikes get one shot off, the DE bikes are not a threat.

Why do you presume the CE get 3-4 DE Jetbikes before things get started? They are just as mobile and you cannot guarantee LOS by any means. As for Overwatch, I would not count on success of even one DE Jetbike going down (though I would certainly hope it does). FNP and Combat Drugs can change that quite easily. Once they are in, the CE Jetbikes are effectively neutralised (possibly stuffed) unless something else comes in to help them - something which should probably be elsewhere on the battlefield, tearing DE apart, rather than rescuing a bunch of flyboys. Until then, the DE have a good chance of holding the CE up, maybe whittling them down, until it is the CE Eldar's turn when they use Hit and Run, and prep another round of HoW.

It won't go that way in every game, sure, but that scenario is not exactly unlikely.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
Outside of a BA formation, how do you plan on entering melee with jetbikes? So far your suggestions have been pretty poor.

Again, I said it was an ideal. Personally, I would be looking to nullify them via Jinks until I can spare something to beat the hell out of them, but I outline a reasonable approach above.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,

So have I? An appeal to authority will get you no where.

Not an appeal, it seemed you were suggesting that I was new at this. Apologies if that was not the case.

 Mr Morden wrote:
,
If you've been watching bikes for a long time, you must realize these are the strongest bikes ever released in the game?.

I agree with you completely (I knew if we went long enough at this we could find common ground ).

My point is that they are not invincible. Furthermore, I opine that the book has not killed the game.

 Mr Morden wrote:
, Try addressing some points.

I entrust the above to your consideration.

Why are you assuming all firepower is ap1-3? Also you are aware that the range is 36" right? You do realise this range combined with jsj is what adds to the resiliency right?
It is incredibly difficult to hide enough DE jetbikes out of LoS of a unit with a 12" move that will make a difference.
How is a rhino going to survive the firepower?

the42up wrote:

For example, I play khorne daemonkin and know its not hot. I dont try to convince everyone it has fixed khorne melee or something that its not.
.

Mate, my main army is Dark Angels - I can one downsmanship you unit for unit

 Yarium wrote:

I think you're correct in that a straight slugfest, the Eldar probably aren't quite as insane as before (though they probably are), but I'll be playing them to take objectives and win games. If I can make my Harlequins win with their incredibly more frail and far more expensive units, I think the Eldar will be nutso for me.

A gamer after my own heart - that is exactly what I am looking to do with Eldar, get those Harlequins in

Jaq Draco lives wrote:

Because he creates defences for balances using flawed examples, which is where it steps outside of opinion and into just being terrible and wrong. .

In my defence, it was not a tactics article. I can do one of those, but you'll have to wait a few months.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Stopped reading here.

So basically your argument about balance here is that Eldar still have to pay points for things and eventually they run out of points? Even though the points they pay for everything is always spend less get more?

Umm, no, that is not my argument. I am saying they get a lot of really nice things but, when putting an army together, it will never seen like a lot.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Smart players wont jink if it means they get more firepower the next turn. It is an offensive unit - it's just a bonus that they have meq surviability - they'd still be overpowered even with 5+ saves...

This is very true. However, an even smarter player (not sure what system of weights and measures we are using here...) might forego that extra firepower if it means the unit stays in contention for the turn after that, and the one after that.

If they had 5+ saves, they would get absolutely slaughtered.

 office_waaagh wrote:

One of the issues that you don't address, however, is the concern that people have that eldar are now (again?) a "no-fun" opponent. So much ranged D means that they can essentially delete an 800 point stompa without batting an eye using a unit with a fraction of the points cost, and suddenly you're down nearly half your points and the rest of the game is a foregone conclusion.

This is a very good point you make, Sir, and, as a part time Ork player with a Stompa, I have a great deal of sympathy.

The ranged D weaponry is to be respected - I am actually okay with it on the Wraithguard, as it creates an 18" 'death' zone around the unit which is exactly how they used to be way back when (been fighting Eldar since the Rogue Trader days, anyone remember the effective Folllowing Fire on the Avatar? ). What I haven't since people leaping up and down on, however, is the Battle Focus on the Wraith Host. Now, that is _nasty_. However, you then have the detachment/formation problem kicking in, and you won't reasonably be facing that in a 1500 point army.

And anyway, as an Ork player, how are those Wraithguard getting through your Ork hordes? I would honestly be more worried about Fire Dragons coming down in a non-scattering Falcon.

Anyway, let's get to the elephant in the room - the Wraithknight. I would make an argument that it is not all doom and gloom for your Stompa. With terrain, you may get the benefit of cover. If not, bring your Power Fields along, and have your Meks inside working furiously to replace Hull Points - you are probably aware of just how infuriating that is to opponents

However, think on this. Your Stompa is capable of taking a '6' on the Destroyer table and it will more than likely live, ready to take more hits, keep fighting, and hitting more pansies. It is not a case of the Eldar taking it out and not batting an eyelid - they will have to work at it.

You are on the nail about the importance of such a unit in a game, and the effect of its loss. However, that is kinda the risk you take and, be honest, even against an army that does not sport D-weapons, the Stompa may not be absolutely, 100% worth the points it costs

Is great fun to use though!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:

- I get the impression here that you are saying a knight is not worth 375pts because that is too many points to invest in it. Therefore leading to the conclusion that you believe knights overcosted. You are using this as an analogy to wraithknight, hence you are claiming the wraithknight is overcosted. Personally I find this absurd.

Be _absolutely_ honest with me for a moment. Do you really think that was the point I was making?

Nice review. After reading through the codex, I agree with you that the eldar now have a ton of awesome options, but they can't take all of them I one list, or even most of them, or possibly even most of what they really want.

About the best combination will probably be CAD+Warhost; even then some of the options like Wraith Host don't look viable at 1850.

Untill actual games prove otherwise, this seems like a lateral shift in power level, making a previously strong codex strong in different ways, that may trigger a meta shift.

Oh yeah, and no matter how you cut it, 295 WK is just too cheap.

In all honesty - yes. Read it back to yourself. You talk about all theae problems with knights, how it gouges a huge hole in your points and how it never makes its points back. How is that not suggesting it is overcosted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still not seeing how you can't take EVERYTHING you want makes eldar balanced. That applies to any list with a points limit. It does not make units within that points limit any more/less balanced when they cost as little as 81 or 295pts.

Poly Ranger wrote:
In all honesty - yes. Read it back to yourself. You talk about all theae problems with knights, how it gouges a huge hole in your points and how it never makes its points back. How is that not suggesting it is overcosted?

Hmm.

Well, I am very sorry, Sir, but you are most incorrect. That was not the point I was making.

As an allied unit (not a full knight army, that is different, for obvious reasons), I have rarely seen a knight make its points back - it is just one unit, has only one main weapon, can only be in one place at any one time. This all goes to make it difficult for it to destroy enough enemy units to equal its points cost.

However, that is not to say it is undercosted. The value of an allied knight is in the damage it _absorbs_ and thus the protection it gives the rest of your army. That is more difficult to quantify, obviously, but it is why the knight is worth those points.

The same is true, to an extent, with the Wraithknight. However, I am also fairly confident it _will_ earn its points back outright. A previous poster said that 295 points is too cheap. I'll reserve judgement for the battlefield, but that is a very, very tough argument to stand against. Very tough. Before I saw the Codex, I was presuming it would be around 400 points.

Still, I would not be too quick to make a call on that. Let's see it on the battlefield and perhaps better minds than I will come up with some nice counters. That said, my first thought is that it won't take too many lascannon or missile launchers to start causing it problems...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:

Still not seeing how you can't take EVERYTHING you want makes eldar balanced. That applies to any list with a points limit. It does not make units within that points limit any more/less balanced when they cost as little as 81 or 295pts.

Yes, every army has this issue, and we always want just one more unit when we are putting an army together. However, because of the specialised nature of Eldar, this issue becomes acute. Going the formation/detachment route, it is not an easy thing to put a balanced Eldar army together - it tends to end up doing one thing extremely well, probably better than anyone - but only that one thing, and durability is always going to be an issue.

I'll give an example.

Today, I played a 2,000 pointer with my Dark Angels, but had no ideas whether I was going to be facing Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard, two obviously very different armies. However, with Dark Angels, it was not a problem to do a force with a reasonable chance against both.

With Eldar, that might not be quite so easy.

The specialised nature of Eldar makes them awesome, but can also bite them on the bum.

I wasn't asking you for a tactics article I was talking about how you were making justifications for the balance of a codex based on very flawed examples which ignore the multitudes of other options that players can and will use that makes the codex terribly unbalanced.

So no, nothing to do with tactics, everything to do with bad examples. Formations, size of units, you make predictions based on how you think players will behave which are pants on head stupid. For instance, no I will not automatically favour the expensive Wraith formation. Not at all, I will just take what I want in the CAD and it'll quite easily work and beat anything fielded against me bar other Eldar.

A knight can shoot at one unit with the firepower of 2 Leman Russes and charge another (due to stubbers), it can take an inordinate amount of the opponents firepower (off your other units as you say), and when it dies it messes up your opponents battle line with its explosion. I have very rarely seen a IK not make its points back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a st6 ap4 4 shot gun on an eldar jetbike is not specialised.

MongooseMatt wrote:
I would say,incidentally, that I would happily take a Dark Angels force against Craftworld Eldar with a reasonably expectation of victory...

The others may not be asking for a tactics article, but I certainly am. Either you're the best DA player the world has ever seen and we must share in your wisdom or you're playing the worst eldar player on the planet.

 Drasius wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:
I would say,incidentally, that I would happily take a Dark Angels force against Craftworld Eldar with a reasonably expectation of victory...

The others may not be asking for a tactics article, but I certainly am. Either you're the best DA player the world has ever seen and we must share in your wisdom or you're playing the worst eldar player on the planet.

I want to see the battle report as well. Of course Mongoose you'd be playing DA.

MongooseMatt wrote:


Yes, every army has this issue, and we always want just one more unit when we are putting an army together. However, because of the specialised nature of Eldar, this issue becomes acute. Going the formation/detachment route, it is not an easy thing to put a balanced Eldar army together - it tends to end up doing one thing extremely well, probably better than anyone - but only that one thing, and durability is always going to be an issue.

Eldar being specialized tends to be more of a fluff thing. In tabletop not so much, outside of aspect units. The basic Eldar weapon works well against both hordes and elites.
Take the maligned jetbikes - great against light infantry, heavy infantry, light vehicles, monstrous creatures - only heavy vehicles really give them a problem. And they are incredibly inexpensive for what they do.

The basic Eldar weapon is the Shuriken Catapult.

Markedly worse against hordes than a Boltgun.

Some things in the Dex are generalistic, but not as much as most people think.

Catapult only weakness is short range, mitigated by Eldars high speed and stuff like battle focus.

Its no weaker than a boltgun when it comes to firepower,

 Drasius wrote:

The others may not be asking for a tactics article, but I certainly am. Either you're the best DA player the world has ever seen and we must share in your wisdom or you're playing the worst eldar player on the planet.

Hmm, are you a member of the Inner Circle? Oh, you are. I'll have to see what I can do, give me a couple of weeks or so :

However, in a nutshell, I would say treat them as a 'normal' Space Marine army, and then sprinkle some Dark Angel goodness - Ravenwing outflanking, deep striking Speeders (5 of those coming down with Multi-meltas will ruin a super heavy's day), I don't think there is much argument that Deathwing Knights are kinda awesome.

That said, there are some things that might be more difficult to put into a tactics article but that are applicable to any army - you have to play not just the opposing army, but the opposing player as well. Actually, thinking about it, that could be more interesting to talk about...

 Quickjager wrote:


I want to see the battle report as well. Of course Mongoose you'd be playing DA.

Now I am kicking myself - I was 'this' close to taking photos of the game today and doing a battle report. But my mate came over, we started chatting... you know how it goes.

Its much, much weaker against hordes that are more than 12" away.

And no stronger against hordes within 12".

I'd call that more specialized.

Some of these are from me despite what the quotes say, and I'll be addressing them below

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

You are not helping your case. The DA codex is pretty bad, and has been one of the inferior codexes in pretty much every edition. It's not like BA or SW, which are SM +1, it's more SM -1.

I am sorry, I do not follow - why does the DA Codex affect this one way or the other?

The part you cut out, you stated that you'd argue that the DA codex is just as strong as anything else.
I am saying this is not the case, never has been, and throws your objectivity into question. I am questioning your objectivity because you are mainly arguing from a position of authority, and frankly, I found your tone to be extremely condescending. Such as your twit comment.

MongooseMatt wrote:

I would say,incidentally, that I would happily take a Dark Angels force against Craftworld Eldar with a reasonably expectation of victory...

I would love to see this battle report. DA are an awful army, and I say this with them being my favorite loyalist legion.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Source?

I have spent time in the studio and have had cause to talk to some of the chaps there.

There is nothing Dark Angels can do that Space Marines can't do better. I have a friend who loves them so much he got a damn tattoo but he loves the army not the constant crapfest that are the rules.

MongooseMatt wrote:


However, in a nutshell, I would say treat them as a 'normal' Space Marine army, and then sprinkle some Dark Angel goodness - Ravenwing outflanking, deep striking Speeders (5 of those coming down with Multi-meltas will ruin a super heavy's day), I don't think there is much argument that Deathwing Knights are kinda awesome.

But here's the problem. You see, you have to pay points for all of that DA goodness. And well, you won't be able to fit everything you want into the list. Because of points.

 MWHistorian wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:


However, in a nutshell, I would say treat them as a 'normal' Space Marine army, and then sprinkle some Dark Angel goodness - Ravenwing outflanking, deep striking Speeders (5 of those coming down with Multi-meltas will ruin a super heavy's day), I don't think there is much argument that Deathwing Knights are kinda awesome.

But here's the problem. You see, you have to pay points for all of that DA goodness. And well, you won't be able to fit everything you want into the list. Because of points.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I have a friend who loves them so much he got a damn tattoo

Yeah, I might not love them that much...

The book is terrible.

They. Changed. The. Color. Of. My. Craftworld. WTF?

 Arschbombe wrote:
The book is terrible.

They. Changed. The. Color. Of. My. Craftworld. WTF?

What Craftworld?

Iybraesil. It was Hawk Turquoise (Sotek Green). Now it's blue-grey. Ugh.

 Arschbombe wrote:
Iybraesil. It was Hawk Turquoise (Sotek Green). Now it's blue-grey. Ugh.

They were already these colours since at least the previous codex.

No. The only image (p82) of Iybraesil in the 6th edition codex showed the same guardian from the 4th edition codex. Still Hawk Turquoise armor, white helmet with dark blue face, and bone catapult.

Now it's blue-grey with white helmets and red helmets. No new mini painted, just the colored drawing.

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

The others may not be asking for a tactics article, but I certainly am. Either you're the best DA player the world has ever seen and we must share in your wisdom or you're playing the worst eldar player on the planet.

Hmm, are you a member of the Inner Circle? Oh, you are. I'll have to see what I can do, give me a couple of weeks or so :

However, in a nutshell, I would say treat them as a 'normal' Space Marine army, and then sprinkle some Dark Angel goodness - Ravenwing outflanking, deep striking Speeders (5 of those coming down with Multi-meltas will ruin a super heavy's day), I don't think there is much argument that Deathwing Knights are kinda awesome.

That said, there are some things that might be more difficult to put into a tactics article but that are applicable to any army - you have to play not just the opposing army, but the opposing player as well. Actually, thinking about it, that could be more interesting to talk about...

 Quickjager wrote:


I want to see the battle report as well. Of course Mongoose you'd be playing DA.

Now I am kicking myself - I was 'this' close to taking photos of the game today and doing a battle report. But my mate came over, we started chatting... you know how it goes.

I'd love to play me some DA (I am a chaos player at heart after all), but their complete and utter inability to achieve results puts the brakes on that plan. If you could link a batrep of you beating Eldar with DA, it would be mighty helpful. Hell, even post the lists that you played the other day in your DA vs Eldar game. That'd be a great start and could put me on the right path.

Bharring wrote:
The basic Eldar weapon is the Shuriken Catapult.

Markedly worse against hordes than a Boltgun.

Some things in the Dex are generalistic, but not as much as most people think.

That's like saying the lasgun is a specialist rather than generalist because it is worse than a boltgun.

In fact if anything, I'd say the shuriken catapult is far more generalist than a boltgun. It is only ever so slightly worse against hordes due to jsj bit even better against 4+, 3+, and 2+ armour due to bladestorm. Whereas boltguns just excel at 5+ or worse. The shuriken is far more generalist than the boltgun, as it is decent against every armour value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also excels against high toughness-decent armour mcs due to all wounds causing no armour. A hit has 1/6 a chance to wound a fex, whereas a boltgun has 1/18 chance to wound a fex. So is better against even more things so more generalist.

Clearly Iybraesil is just trying out a new fashion. You can use the hawk colors like before and have those of us with an appreciation for those who excavate the crone worlds applaud you. ^_^

The new codex is not as terrifyingly OP as I feared it might be. As I don't personally use guardian bikers or wraith knights, I basically just got some nifty new aspect abilities to play with and a stronger incentive to use the exarchs I was already using anyway.

Jetbikes are probably the most terrifying thing in the book. My advice is to stick to the old 1 heavy per 3 bikes rule from before if you want to keep your friends. That said, It's actually more difficult to go out of your way to get the heavy weapons than to just use the same weapon loadouts you had access to before. In other words, don't be a dick, and they're fine. Obviously this is more problematic for tournament players, but I'm curious to see how the tournament meta adapts to them.

To play devil's advocate, however, I don't think the bikes are as untouchable as people seem to be pretending they are. I love hiding stuff behind BLOS terrain, but it's easier for your opponent to get a good angle on you than you might think. Wise terrain placement/selection also helps to mitigate this defense. Even if they jink, bikes don't exactly rival deathstar durability. They'll die to small arms fire or any gun that ignores cover (thunderfires, markerlights, etc.) just as easily as marines. Beasts move just as fast as them in the movement phase and have fleet to help close the gap. Jetbikes are still moving away faster than you're closing the gap, but they ought to be running out of space pretty quickly if they're moving away in a straight line. If they move off to the side, they're making it easier for you to catch up to them. Also, moving away from an assault unit while also keeping the right angle to utilize that BLOS terrain can be tricky. If there's a huge proliferation of BLOS terrain in your games, you ought to be able to use it to your advantage to hide from the bikes too. That's not to say they aren't a problem, but they aren't the untouchable gods of defense people seem to be implying they are either.

I'm not terribly familiar with gargantuan creatures, but the wraith knight *is* a bit silly. If it weren't for the FNP inherent in all GMCs, I'd be tempted to point out that the wraithknight will drop reasonably quickly to focused fire from krak missiles and lascannons, but that FNP makes it scary tough. The possible scattershield save adds to that, but to be fair, it does take away your best guns and leave your 'knight more or less stuck taking on a single unit a turn. I feel like we'll find a workable set of answers to the wraith knight soon enough, but he probably could have afforded to be either a lot more expensive or a little more fragile.

All in all, I'm looking forward to using this codex. It seems easy enough to avoid taking the really broken stuff in friendly games, and the new options on the aspects are just plain fun! Except maybe for the spider's reactive jump. That looks like a good way to annoy people... I'd be more worried about tournament games, but I'm not much of a tournament player myself.

Also, why do people keep saying the scatter laser is ap 4? Reports that they are AP 4 is imperial propaganda designed to increase resentment towards the eldar. ^_^

looking through the book I feel that it is an excellent codex. Some great options with tough choices for the eldar player. Only spammers will cause the community to yell "Uncle". I don;t even know where to begin with the book, I'm trying to field my Iyanden with harlequins (a really restrictive book) and finding I have to make severe sacrifices to do so.

I'm looking forward to putting it all together.

Wise terrain placement/selection also helps to mitigate this defense.

If one of the things you are depending on is being able to put the terrain up yourself to prevent their advantages, there's something a bit wrong.

Thanks for the review. As a DA player I can't think of any effective counters for Eldar that won't require list tailoring. It seems that they took a good codex and make it even better. Still, I look forward to playing against my brother's wraith army. He's been using them with Dark Eldar for some disturbing combinations and now with S weapons .... <shrug> Whatever. FOR THE LION!!!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Wise terrain placement/selection also helps to mitigate this defense.

If one of the things you are depending on is being able to put the terrain up yourself to prevent their advantages, there's something a bit wrong.

Really? My opponents and I generally just sort of place terrain before the game, make sure it looks good to the other player, then adjust as necessary. If your opponent is using lots of long-ranged bikes frequently, well, your opponent might be a dick. But it's still probably a good idea to make sure most of the terrain he can hide behind is closer to mid-field or off to the sides so that he can't just sit in his deployment zone. In the same way that people recommend you have more BLOS terrain when facing Tau or IG, either have more BLOS that you can hide behind yourself, or otherwise distribute BLOS terrain to make the game more fun.


Obviously you probably won't have as much control over your terrain at tournaments, but many tournaments seem to support a fairly limited amount of BLOS terrain. Which is good for non-eldar players because it means your opponent can't hide behind terrain as easily. Seriously, as long as the guardian bikers can't completely deny you the chance to attack them, they aren't that durable. They'll die to small arms fire and melee attacks as quickly as marines, but are worth twice the points when they go down. If you have a way to also deny them cover, they don't benefit from jink either.

Though again, it would probably be more reasonable for 1 in 3 bikes to have access to heavy weapons.

Here's my review of the codex, in abridged form:

Scatriders are ridiculously overpowered and undercosted.
D weapons are ridiculously overpowered and undercosted.
Wraithknights are ludicrously overpowered and undercosted.
Everything else is merely good. People will ignore this in favor of the above.

Take my advice, and don't play against anyone who uses and/or spams the above units.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Here's my review of the codex, in abridged form:

Scatriders are ridiculously overpowered and undercosted.

For the points of two marines, dying the same, T4, 3+ save, 1W. I disagree on over powered. I say balanced. Over **fast*, yes, they still are over-the-top on that.

2 SM : 4 shots, average STR
1 JB : 3 shots, better STR

2 SM: 2 Wounds
1 JB: 1 Wound

27 JB versus 28 SM points. It's their speed that remains 'broken'.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
D weapons are ridiculously overpowered and undercosted.

And the majority of those, 12" range. Meh. And WG are pricey. Again, D weps are a wee bit more powerful than the Distort weps previously, but those differences only matter to non-1W models and vehicles;

... and no one cares when ImpKnight crews cream their shorts ...

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Wraithknights are ludicrously overpowered and undercosted.

I dunno, my WK seemed to survive less than half his games. Maybe with gargantuan rules ... eh. I would not say "ludicrously OP & OC." I'll try to remember to post here after my RTT with the new rules and post results.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Everything else is merely good. People will ignore this in favor of the above.

Every exarch got many toys taken away, so now they're okay sergeants.

I doubt your assertion. Given that I don't own enough models for the Wraith formation nor the JB formation, I would say that 'no' most folks won't WAAC guys will. But frankly, being a tourney regular, I don't see guys like this.

Again, I'll try to remember to post after the next RTT and relay how many WAAC douches showed up with 30 JBs. Or is it "Scatbikes"?

I will, seriously, so you guys get real feedback from actual events.

Is the Wraithknight undercosted? Most definitely. Is it OP? Not even close, despite getting a slight buff to its Wraithcannons it got over 55 points more expensive to become a Gargantuan Creature, which really is not all that bad. It still is very vulnerable to a lot of weapons out there, Grav Guns for Marines for example will still wreck it.

^Yet comparing it to any other GC we see it IS clearly far too powerful for its points. Or, you know, OP.

You treat "GC" status, which you yourself say "not all that bad" (No more poison, independent targeting, etc.) and your only argument to justify that is that it can still be hurt by some things without an extrordinary and ridiculous struggle in the first place?

Goodness.

 gmaleron wrote:
Is the Wraithknight undercosted? Most definitely. Is it OP? Not even close, despite getting a slight buff to its Wraithcannons

Yet again, it's significanly more than a slight buff, going from S10 to D is gigantic.

it got over 55 points more expensive to become a Gargantuan Creature, which really is not all that bad. It still is very vulnerable to a lot of weapons out there, Grav Guns for Marines for example will still wreck it.

Which doesn't mean it can't still be OP, particularly as most armies don't have grav guns.

Gaining a gigantic boost to firepower, Stomp attacks, vastly increased resilience against mechanics like Force, Poison and Sniper, for a mere 55pts is astoundingly cheap, and is not only cheaper than any other GC, is downright better 1v1 than many (if not most) most as well.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Here's my review of the codex, in abridged form:

Scatriders are ridiculously overpowered and undercosted.

For the points of two marines, dying the same, T4, 3+ save, 1W. I disagree on over powered. I say balanced. Over **fast*, yes, they still are over-the-top on that.

2 SM : 4 shots, average STR
1 JB : 3 shots, better STR

2 SM: 2 Wounds
1 JB: 1 Wound

27 JB versus 28 SM points. It's their speed that remains 'broken'.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
D weapons are ridiculously overpowered and undercosted.

And the majority of those, 12" range. Meh. And WG are pricey. Again, D weps are a wee bit more powerful than the Distort weps previously, but those differences only matter to non-1W models and vehicles;

... and no one cares when ImpKnight crews cream their shorts ...

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Wraithknights are ludicrously overpowered and undercosted.

I dunno, my WK seemed to survive less than half his games. Maybe with gargantuan rules ... eh. I would not say "ludicrously OP & OC." I'll try to remember to post here after my RTT with the new rules and post results.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Everything else is merely good. People will ignore this in favor of the above.

Every exarch got many toys taken away, so now they're okay sergeants.

I doubt your assertion. Given that I don't own enough models for the Wraith formation nor the JB formation, I would say that 'no' most folks won't WAAC guys will. But frankly, being a tourney regular, I don't see guys like this.

Again, I'll try to remember to post after the next RTT and relay how many WAAC douches showed up with 30 JBs. Or is it "Scatbikes"?

I will, seriously, so you guys get real feedback from actual events.

2 SM at 12" have 4 st4 shots.

1 scatterbike at 36" has 4 st6 shots.

That is a massively higher level of shooting power!

2 marines have a 24" gun.

Jetbikes have a 36" gun, jsj and the option of jink.

That is a massively higher level of survivability!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
D weapons are far more powerful against vehicles mathmatically.

I think it's safe to say that anybody who thinks the wraithknight is "just ok" and not OP at all for it's pointscost has a bit of a weird sense of balance.

Regardless, 80% of this codex is really good, packs one hell of a punch, etc. There's not a single unit in there (except for poor guardians perhaps) that you wouldn't want to field at all.

The sad part, like many already point out, is that massive mistakes in terms of balance were made by the game devs for a few units. They will overshadow everything (just like serpentspam in the last book).

 gmaleron wrote:
Is the Wraithknight undercosted? Most definitely. Is it OP? Not even close, despite getting a slight buff to its Wraithcannons it got over 55 points more expensive to become a Gargantuan Creature, which really is not all that bad. It still is very vulnerable to a lot of weapons out there, Grav Guns for Marines for example will still wreck it.

You do realise the power of D weapons, the power of stomps and the power of being able to ignore many weapon types such as poison right? Because its 55pys included all of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Clearly Iybraesil is just trying out a new fashion. You can use the hawk colors like before and have those of us with an appreciation for those who excavate the crone worlds applaud you. ^_^

The new codex is not as terrifyingly OP as I feared it might be. As I don't personally use guardian bikers or wraith knights, I basically just got some nifty new aspect abilities to play with and a stronger incentive to use the exarchs I was already using anyway.

Jetbikes are probably the most terrifying thing in the book. My advice is to stick to the old 1 heavy per 3 bikes rule from before if you want to keep your friends. That said, It's actually more difficult to go out of your way to get the heavy weapons than to just use the same weapon loadouts you had access to before. In other words, don't be a dick, and they're fine. Obviously this is more problematic for tournament players, but I'm curious to see how the tournament meta adapts to them.

To play devil's advocate, however, I don't think the bikes are as untouchable as people seem to be pretending they are. I love hiding stuff behind BLOS terrain, but it's easier for your opponent to get a good angle on you than you might think. Wise terrain placement/selection also helps to mitigate this defense. Even if they jink, bikes don't exactly rival deathstar durability. They'll die to small arms fire or any gun that ignores cover (thunderfires, markerlights, etc.) just as easily as marines. Beasts move just as fast as them in the movement phase and have fleet to help close the gap. Jetbikes are still moving away faster than you're closing the gap, but they ought to be running out of space pretty quickly if they're moving away in a straight line. If they move off to the side, they're making it easier for you to catch up to them. Also, moving away from an assault unit while also keeping the right angle to utilize that BLOS terrain can be tricky. If there's a huge proliferation of BLOS terrain in your games, you ought to be able to use it to your advantage to hide from the bikes too. That's not to say they aren't a problem, but they aren't the untouchable gods of defense people seem to be implying they are either.

I'm not terribly familiar with gargantuan creatures, but the wraith knight *is* a bit silly. If it weren't for the FNP inherent in all GMCs, I'd be tempted to point out that the wraithknight will drop reasonably quickly to focused fire from krak missiles and lascannons, but that FNP makes it scary tough. The possible scattershield save adds to that, but to be fair, it does take away your best guns and leave your 'knight more or less stuck taking on a single unit a turn. I feel like we'll find a workable set of answers to the wraith knight soon enough, but he probably could have afforded to be either a lot more expensive or a little more fragile.

All in all, I'm looking forward to using this codex. It seems easy enough to avoid taking the really broken stuff in friendly games, and the new options on the aspects are just plain fun! Except maybe for the spider's reactive jump. That looks like a good way to annoy people... I'd be more worried about tournament games, but I'm not much of a tournament player myself.

Also, why do people keep saying the scatter laser is ap 4? Reports that they are AP 4 is imperial propaganda designed to increase resentment towards the eldar. ^_^

Line of sight blocking terrain is not what makes scatter bikes survivable. It is the 36" range with jsj that does that. Most small arms can't reach them before it is dead. Also any beasts apart from rp wraiths will be shredded by the scatterbikes in a turn, at most 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've not seen anybody say that scatter lasers are ap4.

Poly Ranger wrote:
2 SM at 12" have 4 st4 shots.

1 scatterbike at 36" has 4 st6 shots.

That is a massively higher level of shooting power!

2 marines have a 24" gun.

Jetbikes have a 36" gun, jsj and the option of jink.

That is a massively higher level of survivability!

I did neglect the range in my analysis. The extra range wasn't considered, given how much Drop Pod spam I play in my meta.

Sorry.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
D weapons are far more powerful against vehicles mathmatically.

Yer absolutely right. D over Distort Weps are better, not 'ludicrously' so, though.
IMHO.

I exalted your post as you well put, without trolling, that I missed and messed up. Well, done.

No problem. It's the range combined with the maneuverability and hrof that is the issue. Otherwise the statline of a jetbike unit is fine.

Guide is still primaris as well I assume? I've not verified that with anyone yet.

Poly Ranger wrote:
No problem. It's the range combined with the maneuverability and hrof that is the issue. Otherwise the statline of a jetbike unit is fine.

Guide is still primaris as well I assume? I've not verified that with anyone yet.

yeah, Guide is still primaris

Cheers!

A new codex comes out with several really good things, and everyone cries that it is overpowered.. then more codexes come out and it becomes just another book amongst the crowd. This has all happened before and it will all happen again. It's not the end of the world.

chanceafs wrote:
A new codex comes out with several really good things, and everyone cries that it is overpowered.. then more codexes come out and it becomes just another book amongst the crowd. This has all happened before and it will all happen again. It's not the end of the world.

Yeah, the new Skitarri book is basically at the same power level as these guys, right? Same with the khorne book, anyone can see that.
And all the other 7th edition codexes are basically at the same power level too. A Jetbike with scatter lasers is basically the same firepower as 2 marines!

You guys have such short memories. The 6th edition eldar dex was balanced and not op at all. Lots of codexes that came before it and after it were basically at the same power level, no one ever complained about it. It's not like it was one of the strongest codexes out there and then just got buffed.

[/sarcasm]

Some of these claims are pretty out there.
Scatbikes having the same output as two marines? Marines are terrible. A single jetbike has 2x the shots at +12" range, or the same shots at triple the range. Also, +2 strength.
The bike is much faster and can JSJ for reasons.
This is with the scatter laser. Compare a naked bike to a marine and see what you get for 3 points. CSM had it bad when SM came out, chapter tactics for +1 point? Really?, but this is a lot worse.

Str D is way better at blowing up tanks then str 10. On average, and the standard deviation is much more in the Str D's favor.

Str d ignores cover on a 6. Str 10 does not ignore cover.

Str d does d3+1 hp/ wounds. Will instant kill on a 6. str 10 does 1 hp. Might be able to double out some things.

Str d does a pen/wound on a 2+ on anything. Str 10 does a glance on a 12 on a 2. Needs 4 to glance av14. can guarantee a pen on av14 targets I suppose.

If you're seriously saying that you've never seen players look at a new codex and go 'OMG its the most BROKEN THING EVAAARRR!!" before, only to have the game balance eventually catch up with the new dex. Then you really haven't been playing long.

Is it a codex that is better than most out there at the moment? yes. WIll it stay that way? No.

And as we all know, the #1 past time of 40K players is bitching about how good someone elses codex is.

Lovely tone you've got there.

On the flip side of the coin, if you can't see how broken the scatter bikes and stD on wraithknights and wraithguard is compared to anything in the past, we have to either question your tactical acuman and mathmatical ability or question how long you have been playing.

If you think the codex is balanced and that the formations are limiting I present you this 1850 List

Windrider Host
Farseer Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Windriders x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x6
Vyper (Naked)
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon

Just got the codex and read it
Have to say I like what they have done with the aspect warriors as I can personal see a point in taking them all now.
The formations are good maybe to good but since only necron and this one are of the same type maybe can't really complain as a whole until the rest of the dexes get bumped up.

I like the codex as a book in game its going to behard to beat if you spam but then what army isn't.
The dgun stuff suits the fluff perfectly but it is going to upset a hell of alot of people in a game very cheap dgun weapons but necrons have near every weapon that glances vehicles to death.

I do like what they did to wraith blades that added rage helps alot. There is some nice touches to this book and some questionable ones but I like the way the rules are kind of coming in line with the fluff but I seriously think points for certain things should be raised like dguns for vaul batterys should be at least 50pts, wraith guard dguns should have seen them bumped up in price by around 10-15pts a model and there is a few more bit easily fixed in house.

At least scatter lasers no longer give twin linked marker light ability how many noticed that


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you take the dgun wraiths and scatter lazer jetbikes out or increased there price I think the dex would be a welcome book in a lot of ways.

I ain't a eldar player well apart from dark eldar which I have made one of my main army's nids being my second. I will use this book for allies as I did harlequins a small group just to add more flavour wraith blades mostly just cause I love the looks of them I don't need dguns I have emp lol :p

chanceafs wrote:
If you're seriously saying that you've never seen players look at a new codex and go 'OMG its the most BROKEN THING EVAAARRR!!" before, only to have the game balance eventually catch up with the new dex. Then you really haven't been playing long.

I've been playing since 3rd and own nearly every army in this game bar formations and the mini-dexes.
And, to be fair, that is not at all what you said. What you said is that a codex comes along that is overpowered and people freak out, then other codexes come out that are just as bad and people stop caring.
I would think all the anti-waveserpent and Riptides discussions that were going on long after those dexes released would show this isn't the case.

I was pointing out, successfully mind you, that this did not happen in 6th edition. In 7th, it has been Necrons (Really strong!), Skitarri (Average to above average), to Eldar (Strongest Dex). All the codexes before necrons were about average.

Most editions were defined by one or two dexes being blatantly above everyone else. These were not the later dexes to released, but often about halfway through the edition and never balanced. Game balance didn't catch up with them, the edition changes and suddenly certain things that were op suck and everyone has to get new models. As was the case in 3rd to 4th edition, and in 5th to 6th.

chanceafs wrote:

Is it a codex that is better than most out there at the moment? yes. WIll it stay that way? No.

Change most to all. It stayed that way in 6th edition and will most likely stay that way for quite a while. Aren't DA up soon? Do you think they'll be better then Eldar, or even on par?
Those of us who don't main the power dexes will just have to wait I guess.

chanceafs wrote:

And as we all know, the #1 past time of 40K players is bitching about how good someone elses codex is.

Actually it seems more like it's attacking other posters for disagreeing with you

And, to be fair, that is not at all what you said. What you said is that a codex comes along that is overpowered and people freak out, then other codexes come out that are just as bad and people stop caring.

Only eldar are not the first or second codex of an edition. GW first made a ton of books, and only when they reached necron and eldar they suddenly buffed their power up to 11.

Makumba wrote:

And, to be fair, that is not at all what you said. What you said is that a codex comes along that is overpowered and people freak out, then other codexes come out that are just as bad and people stop caring.

Only eldar are not the first or second codex of an edition. GW first made a ton of books, and only when they reached necron and eldar they suddenly buffed their power up to 11.

To be fair it's just par for the course with Eldar, new dex comes and they are basically the Power dex of the edition.

What happened to these hardback codexes being here to stay? The defense of their prices was that they were supposed to be set for a while. Now the defense of this eldar dex is that soon all the codexez will be redone. :/

@PolyRanger: Someone accused scaters of being ap4 earlier in this very thread!

As for 36" JSJ, bike range is nice, but without BLOS terrain, bikes ought to be pretty straightforward to deal with. They die more or less like marines do (with a chance to give themselves a cover save), and each kill is a not -insignificant chunk of points. Push a vindicator towards them, shoot artillery at them, drop pod on top of them, etc. The board is only so big. The issue is that they can pack a ridiculous amount of return fire, but bikes are far from impossible to catch or kill on a model-by-model basis.

 Xerics wrote:
If you think the codex is balanced and that the formations are limiting I present you this 1850 List

Windrider Host
Farseer Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Windriders x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x6
Vyper (Naked)
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon

How are you getting four Lords of War in a list? No tourney that I've seen allows more than one (most are banned) , and for casual play no one would play against it.

I will admit the Wind Rider host does look scary/OP, but then that's gonna be a guy with a lot of money spent. I own 10 jetbikes cuz I got the Winder Rider Host box from years ago. Buy two more? Hell, no. Yeah, there will be a douche or three who fields it, but given how much Drop Pods are in vogue now, muhreens are a heavy and popular Rock/Paper match up.

The Sky is still up there.

- - - - - - - - - -
**rereads page 95**
Do the RESTRICTIONS on page 95, that little box above "Asepct host" ... is *that* where multiple WKs are allowed? 1-12? If so, then ... well, tourneys will keep their own play fields clean on that.

Huh.

 MWHistorian wrote:
What happened to these hardback codexes being here to stay? The defense of their prices was that they were supposed to be set for a while. Now the defense of this eldar dex is that soon all the codexez will be redone. :/

Standard appologist defence:

Its not broken
Even if it is "you" just need to learn to play
Even if its its the rules so we can't change them cos "reasons"
Probably broken lets wait foe he FAQs/New Codex

Probably the most insulting (apart from LTP) is "oh I am sure you will get a codex at some point that is nearly as good - maybe in a few years - so its all fine.

 sudojoe wrote:
Str d ignores cover on a 6. Str 10 does not ignore cover.

Str d does d3+1 hp/ wounds. Will instant kill on a 6. str 10 does 1 hp. Might be able to double out some things.

Str d does a pen/wound on a 2+ on anything. Str 10 does a glance on a 12 on a 2. Needs 4 to glance av14. can guarantee a pen on av14 targets I suppose.

Yes, Ds are more powerful than Distort. Slightly, and only relevantly so against:

multi-wound models
and
vehicles

I will gladly pat bug players on the back and buy them a beer (no sarcasm) for this. There is plenty of Ignores Cover in the game, so one more isn't game breaking.

Wyldhunt wrote:
@PolyRanger: Someone accused scaters of being ap4 earlier in this very thread!

As for 36" JSJ, bike range is nice, but without BLOS terrain, bikes ought to be pretty straightforward to deal with. They die more or less like marines do (with a chance to give themselves a cover save), and each kill is a not -insignificant chunk of points. Push a vindicator towards them, shoot artillery at them, drop pod on top of them, etc. The board is only so big. The issue is that they can pack a ridiculous amount of return fire, but bikes are far from impossible to catch or kill on a model-by-model basis.

Sorry I must have completely missed that. If they were ap4... well I don't even know how to describe how ridiculous that would make them considering where they are already at.

Push a vindicator towards them, shoot artillery at them, drop pod on top of them, etc.

But blast vs big bases maybe clip 2 models. And something like a vindicator or lemman russ has to first survive a turn in range of eldar to get a shot off. Drop pods are only accesible to marines. Worse all the eldar player has to do to avoid getting his jetbikes killed is runing them in msu style units. Then pods kill maybe 3 or 5 models and the units that were inside die on next turn.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
Str d ignores cover on a 6. Str 10 does not ignore cover.

Str d does d3+1 hp/ wounds. Will instant kill on a 6. str 10 does 1 hp. Might be able to double out some things.

Str d does a pen/wound on a 2+ on anything. Str 10 does a glance on a 12 on a 2. Needs 4 to glance av14. can guarantee a pen on av14 targets I suppose.

Yes, Ds are more powerful than Distort. Slightly, and only relevantly so against:

multi-wound models
and
vehicles

I will gladly pat bug players on the back and buy them a beer (no sarcasm) for this. There is plenty of Ignores Cover in the game, so one more isn't game breaking.

Since when is 2-4x the number of wounds/hp caused only a slight increase in power?

chanceafs wrote:
If you're seriously saying that you've never seen players look at a new codex and go 'OMG its the most BROKEN THING EVAAARRR!!" before, only to have the game balance eventually catch up with the new dex. Then you really haven't been playing long.

Is it a codex that is better than most out there at the moment? yes. WIll it stay that way? No.

And as we all know, the #1 past time of 40K players is bitching about how good someone elses codex is.

Having received 7th ed codex that is nowhere near the level of Necrons or new Eldar makes me question your reasoning. Care to provide any support to your claims here?

I bet next time they get my codex right and I only need to be patient and learn to play in two years. Sheesh... The excuses people make to defend OP codexes/units.

Yeah that old chestnut

Yeah ifs totally broken BUT probably maybe, perhaps yours might be too - sometime in the future, well maybe - so thats all good and we should just accept that GW say its fine so it is.............

Nothing better than whining eldar players saying everyone is whining in an attempt to justify their over powrre codex since 2nd edition

Don't worry just 5 more editions before we catch up!

Akiasura wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
Str d ignores cover on a 6. Str 10 does not ignore cover.

Str d does d3+1 hp/ wounds. Will instant kill on a 6. str 10 does 1 hp. Might be able to double out some things.

Str d does a pen/wound on a 2+ on anything. Str 10 does a glance on a 12 on a 2. Needs 4 to glance av14. can guarantee a pen on av14 targets I suppose.

Yes, Ds are more powerful than Distort. Slightly, and only relevantly so against:

multi-wound models
and
vehicles

I will gladly pat bug players on the back and buy them a beer (no sarcasm) for this. There is plenty of Ignores Cover in the game, so one more isn't game breaking.

Since when is 2-4x the number of wounds/hp caused only a slight increase in power?

A month ago, a WraithKnight shoots his Distort weapon at Marneus Calgar, hits and wounds with a . Look Out, Sir! is failed, and if he fails is Invulnerable Save, Marneus takes a wound, as he's all Eternal Warrior. Another multi-wound character without EW dies from Instant Death, having failed an Invuln.

**edit (I misread a calculation)
Now, Marneus will take 1-3 wounds (on a to wound of 2-5) if he fails his saves. He might die, mathHammer; ... 3 wounds one third the time (33%), then figure in failing 3 4+ Invuln Saves (25%). He won't die from just this.

However, if the WK player rolls a , then Marney is in trouble, as d6+6 wounds will total him out, no saves of anykind. Yes, more powerful. But only models like non-vehicle models like Marney (multi-wound Head-Liner named Characters), DreadKnights and other MCs are worried. Hardly rocking the entirety of 40k.

To add that D-weps aren't having the impact people are so worried about:
the Ad-Lance player at our local tourney, for months had failed to do better than 1 & 2 or maybe even 2 & 1, but regularly finishes in the kitty pool. And he's no slouch nooB, having played 40k since 2e. D- weps just haven't had the hurt on the game that every one is claiming they do. Not in my experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Nothing better than whining eldar players saying everyone is whining in an attempt to justify their over powrre codex since 2nd edition

(sarcastic, good natured post)

Yeah, but I also get to whine about my tau. And then I'll whine about the Space Marine models I play and how they changed with the next book. And my Wolves. And of course I'm still complaining about how my Chaos Marines suck. And don't get me started about how useless my daemon army is. And all my termies? My first, beloved DeathWing army? Yeah, I still shed tears about that. My expensive, dust collecting Dark Eldar, Mechdar?

Yeah, eldar players are douches.

stolen from /tg/

Chad Warden wrote:
stolen from /tg/

I can see its not even worth taking vehicles against the Eldar then.

much easier to just use the Edlar Codex for all armies - fair and balanced

Just need to forge the narrative so that you find the right awesome Eldar unit to represent your weaker non Eldar one

 Brothererekose wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
Str d ignores cover on a 6. Str 10 does not ignore cover.

Str d does d3+1 hp/ wounds. Will instant kill on a 6. str 10 does 1 hp. Might be able to double out some things.

Str d does a pen/wound on a 2+ on anything. Str 10 does a glance on a 12 on a 2. Needs 4 to glance av14. can guarantee a pen on av14 targets I suppose.

Yes, Ds are more powerful than Distort. Slightly, and only relevantly so against:

multi-wound models
and
vehicles

I will gladly pat bug players on the back and buy them a beer (no sarcasm) for this. There is plenty of Ignores Cover in the game, so one more isn't game breaking.

Since when is 2-4x the number of wounds/hp caused only a slight increase in power?

A month ago, a WraithKnight shoots his Distort weapon at Marneus Calgar, hits and wounds with a . Look Out, Sir! is failed, and if he fails is Invulnerable Save, Marneus takes a wound, as he's all Eternal Warrior. Another multi-wound character without EW dies from Instant Death, having failed an Invuln.


**edit (I misread a calculation)
Now, Marneus will take 1-3 wounds (on a to wound of 2-5) if he fails his saves. He might die, mathHammer; ... 3 wounds one third the time (33%), then figure in failing 3 4+ Invuln Saves (25%). He won't die from just this.

However, if the WK player rolls a , then Marney is in trouble, as d6+6 wounds will total him out, no saves of anykind. Yes, more powerful. But only models like non-vehicle models like Marney (multi-wound Head-Liner named Characters), DreadKnights and other MCs are worried. Hardly rocking the entirety of 40k.

Okay, so you compare rolling a 6 with the old distort weapons, to just rolling any wound roll now, and you don't see the difference?
Also, I believe it is d3+1 wound, so it's 2-4, not 1-3 like your math suggests. So, with a failed save, 66% of the time Calgar bites the dust.
Now, Calgar gets no save and just explodes if a 6 is rolled.

Tanks are more effected by the new rules then characters. I don't know what you are talking about here, but let's do some math and things.
• S10 Ap2 Vs Armor 11 – Chance to Deal 1 Hull Point: 67%, Chance to Explode: 9%
• SD Ap2 Vs Armor 11 – Chance to Deal Multiple Hull Points: 83%, Chance to Explode: 33%
• S10 Ap2 Vs Armor 14 – Chance to Deal 1 Hull Point: 33%, Chance to Explode: 4%
• SD Ap2 Vs Armor 14 – Chance to Deal Multiple Hull Points: 83%, Chance to Explode: 19%
• S10 Ap2 Vs T8 5++ – Expected Unsaved Wounds Dealt: .37, Chance of Instant Death: 7%
• SD Ap2 Vs T8 5++ – Expected Unsaved Wounds Dealt: 1.6, Chance of Dealing D6+6 Wounds: 11%

Notice that the word multiple is used.

 Brothererekose wrote:

To add that D-weps aren't having the impact people are so worried about:
the Ad-Lance player at our local tourney, for months had failed to do better than 1 & 2 or maybe even 2 & 1, but regularly finishes in the kitty pool. And he's no slouch nooB, having played 40k since 2e. D- weps just haven't had the hurt on the game that every one is claiming they do. Not in my experience.

An ad lance player doing that bad is a slouch at the game, sorry.
My friend who got me into this game played 2ed, and he's easily the worst player at this, necromunda, and warmachine. He played cryx and thought they were the weakest faction, pre-gaspy nerf.

Akiasura wrote:

BrotherErekose wrote:However, if the WK player rolls a , then Marney is in trouble, as d6+6 wounds will total him out, no saves of anykind. Yes, more powerful. But only models like non-vehicle models like Marney (multi-wound Head-Liner named Characters), DreadKnights and other MCs are worried. Hardly rocking the entirety of 40k.

Okay, so you compare rolling a 6 with the old distort weapons, to just rolling any wound roll now, and you don't see the difference?
Also, I believe it is d3+1 wound, so it's 2-4, not 1-3 like your math suggests.

I did the math before the EDIT with d3 + 1. But then I reread page 163 and now, looking at page 163 in the RB, it says, "d3 wounds, instead of 1". I don't mind if you cite the page where you see d3 + 1.

Akiasura wrote:
So, with a failed save, 66% of the time Calgar bites the dust.

No, if it is d3 +1, then wounding with a roll of 2-5 yields 4 wounds 33% of the time, times Marney's 4 Iron Halo saves. He will fail all four saves 12.5% of the time. So, 33 percent times 12.5% or one-eighth. That's little better than 4%. Or is my calculating wrong? Nicely, I ask.

Akiasura wrote:
Now, Calgar gets no save and just explodes if a 6 is rolled.

Agreed. The Dwep is more powerful here, and Marney and MCs need to worry, but hardly impacting all of 40k's armies.

Akiasura wrote:
Tanks are more effected by the new rules then characters.

Yes, I agree. Let's look at your calculations.

Akiasura wrote:
I don't know what you are talking about here, but let's do some math and things.
• S10 Ap2 Vs Armor 11 – Chance to Deal 1 Hull Point: 67%, Chance to Explode: 9%
• SD Ap2 Vs Armor 11 – Chance to Deal Multiple Hull Points: 83%, Chance to Explode: 33%
• S10 Ap2 Vs Armor 14 – Chance to Deal 1 Hull Point: 33%, Chance to Explode: 4%
• SD Ap2 Vs Armor 14 – Chance to Deal Multiple Hull Points: 83%, Chance to Explode: 19%
• S10 Ap2 Vs T8 5++ – Expected Unsaved Wounds Dealt: .37, Chance of Instant Death: 7%
• SD Ap2 Vs T8 5++ – Expected Unsaved Wounds Dealt: 1.6, Chance of Dealing D6+6 Wounds: 11%

Notice that the word multiple is used.

I'm gonna crunch these numbers for a bit ...

 Brothererekose wrote:

To add that D-weps aren't having the impact people are so worried about:
the Ad-Lance player at our local tourney, for months had failed to do better than 1 & 2 or maybe even 2 & 1, but regularly finishes in the kitty pool. And he's no slouch nooB, having played 40k since 2e. D- weps just haven't had the hurt on the game that every one is claiming they do. Not in my experience.

Akiasura wrote:
An ad lance player doing that bad is a slouch at the game, sorry.

I'll pass that along. We and I like to bust each other's chops.

Akiasura wrote:
My friend who got me into this game played 2ed, and he's easily the worst player at this, necromunda, and warmachine. He played cryx and thought they were the weakest faction, pre-gaspy nerf.

Very well. I will concede that being a long time gamer, based on our two anecdotes, does not yield a *good* player.

No sarcasm was intended in this post.


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Damn it. I did the math wrong again. Sorry, man.

66% of D-wep successful hits produce d3 wounds, the roll of 2-5. Marney will save 50% of those.

If *both* Heavy Wraith Cannons hit and wound Marney:

66% times two hits. This will yield, on average 4 wounds, which Marney will only fail all 4% of the time.

So, with only one HeavyWraithCannon hitting, Marney is fine, 84% of the time. If both hit, we can add in the 1 in 36 chance of box-cars to 2 x d6 +6 wounds.

Some really small numbers.

I think.

I may be thinking last edition, and will have to double check the rule book later.

EDIT
It's d3+1 hull points and d3 wounds.
Hull points read as a penetrating hit AND d3 hull points I believe.
My notes could be wrong though.

Akiasura wrote:
I may be thinking last edition, and will have to double check the rule book later.

EDIT
It's d3+1 hull points and d3 wounds.
Hull points read as a penetrating hit AND d3 hull points I believe.
My notes could be wrong though.

My page 163, Destroyer Weapon Attack Table has:

Vehicle
2-5 yields Pen hit, with d3 Hull Points instead of 1

Non-Vehicle
2-5 yields d3 wounds instead of 1

Both results of '6' are the 2 Ton weight on Graham Chapman ending the sketch.

Edition hangover is easily forgivable.

 Brothererekose wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I may be thinking last edition, and will have to double check the rule book later.

EDIT
It's d3+1 hull points and d3 wounds.
Hull points read as a penetrating hit AND d3 hull points I believe.
My notes could be wrong though.

My page 163, Destroyer Weapon Attack Table has:

Vehicle
2-5 yields Pen hit, with d3 Hull Points instead of 1

Non-Vehicle
2-5 yields d3 wounds instead of 1

Both results of '6' are the 2 Ton weight on Graham Chapman ending the sketch.

Edition hangover is easily forgivable.

Yup, must have fixed the wounds ability and not the hull points. We don't play with LoW, so the eldar dex is the first time its going to come up.

That changes some of the math, I'll have to double check to see how bad it is.

Just FYI - you take saves before you multiply the wounds on the destroyer chart

 Massaen wrote:
Just FYI - you take saves before you multiply the wounds on the destroyer chart

Page citation?

 Xerics wrote:
If you think the codex is balanced and that the formations are limiting I present you this 1850 List

Windrider Host
Farseer Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Windriders x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x6
Vyper (Naked)
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon

Anyone who thinks this Dex is balanced I just ran the above list in a local game store tournament. I literally lost 1 wraith knight the entire night because a necron player had a nightbringer that happened to randomly get his D weapon on the top of the first turn and one shotted the wraithknight with 8 lost wounds and no saves allowed. Other than that I wiped the floor with imperial Knights, Ferrus Manus, Dark Eldar and nearly tabled the necrons. Running 4 wraithknights like I did is literally point and click unit removal.

But unless im missing something that made this list unbound. WK are LoW aren't they? so you couldn't run 4 of them unless you had 4 formations correct?


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or is their some ridiculous formation where you bring 4 of them?

I don't have any eldar players by me so these changes don't matter, but that book looks absolutely gorgeous! I might have to pick it up since I'm a huge fluff freak.

Was the fluff changed much from the previous book? if so, would it be changed enough to warrant a re-purchase (i have no intention to ever play Eldar, they aint my Xeno)

 Ghazkuul wrote:
But unless im missing something that made this list unbound. WK are LoW aren't they? so you couldn't run 4 of them unless you had 4 formations correct?

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or is their some ridiculous formation where you bring 4 of them?

Yes, it is Unbound. The codex has a capital 'U' for the word. The last three sentences in the paragraph talks about normal, 'Battle -forged method of organizing into Detachments' so insanity only prevails if an opponent agrees.

It would not be allowed in any tourney.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
But unless im missing something that made this list unbound. WK are LoW aren't they? so you couldn't run 4 of them unless you had 4 formations correct?


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or is their some ridiculous formation where you bring 4 of them?

They have a formation much like the necron Decurion Detachment. they can have 12 Auxillaries and one of the option is a wraithknight, wraithfighter or wraithlord... I picked Wraithknight 4 times.

I think a better example will be when people start fielding the new formations and either winning dramatically or its keeping pace with everyone else. Comparing this codex to the ork codex though.....Night and day really.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
But unless im missing something that made this list unbound. WK are LoW aren't they? so you couldn't run 4 of them unless you had 4 formations correct?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
or is their some ridiculous formation where you bring 4 of them?

Yes, it is Unbound. The codex has a capital 'U' for the word. The last three sentences in the paragraph talks about normal, 'Battle -forged method of organizing into Detachments' so insanity only prevails if an opponent agrees.

It would not be allowed in any tourney.

It is not unbound. The detatchment rules allow me to run 1-12 auxillaries and 1 wraithknight is 1 auxillary. the jetbikes and Vyper I had were the core portion.

 Xerics wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
But unless im missing something that made this list unbound. WK are LoW aren't they? so you couldn't run 4 of them unless you had 4 formations correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
or is their some ridiculous formation where you bring 4 of them?

They have a formation much like the necron Decurion Detachment. they can have 12 Auxillaries and one of the option is a wraithknight, wraithfighter or wraithlord... I picked Wraithknight 4 times.

So was that a legitimate formation then? Bound army and all?


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If that is the case then the Eldar codex is 100% broken and beyond salvage.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
But unless im missing something that made this list unbound. WK are LoW aren't they? so you couldn't run 4 of them unless you had 4 formations correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
or is their some ridiculous formation where you bring 4 of them?

They have a formation much like the necron Decurion Detachment. they can have 12 Auxillaries and one of the option is a wraithknight, wraithfighter or wraithlord... I picked Wraithknight 4 times.

So was that a legitimate formation then? Bound army and all?


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If that is the case then the Eldar codex is 100% broken and beyond salvage.

Using the Craftworld Warhost Detatchment it is a battleforged army. It just doesn't have objective secured as it doesnt use the Combined Arms Detatchment but it is perfectly legal just as the Necron Decurion Detatchment is.

I'd like the new Eldar book a lot more if every army got one that was just as good. But that's the problem, GW doesn't ever say a word about what they're doing or what their long-term plans are for the game, they don't talk to the media and they don't even use their own fething magazine (presumably because that would mean they would have less space to say "BUY THE NEW THING!"), so right now it just looks like GW broke the fething game for no reason, and we have no idea if every army will be getting the same treatment or not. The fact that Eldar are even getting an update at all is really bizarre since the book was only 2 years old and was already one of the strongest in the game, but again, GW doesn't say a word, we're supposed to just accept that a new Eldar book is out and mindlessly upgrade to the new one without asking any questions.

Xerics, I'm looking at pages 94 and 95. Second paragraph under "CHOOSING AN ARMY" says you can use the chart on the two pages, yielding the 'decurion' like chart, Unbound. Up to 12 of blah blah broken stuff.

Then it yammers about 'Battle-forged' and normalcy. I dunno if yakeface wants that much Int. Property copy/pasted, but sorry man, you've misinterpreted the text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Working my way through page 95's Craftworld Warhost text. Murky here, and I think where Xerics is getting validation.

I think

BRB or eldar codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah Page 94 of Codex Eldar: Craftwrolds. Eldar Craftworld Warhost is a battle forged army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 94, 3rd paragraph, first sentance. Under "Choosing An Army"

 Xerics wrote:
BRB or eldar codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah Page 94 of Codex Eldar: Craftwrolds. Eldar Craftworld Warhost is a battle forged army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 94, 3rd paragraph, first sentance. Under "Choosing An Army"

Ah, criminy. What the hell is the stuff Daniel is bringing?

Okay, given, "It has compulsory and optional elements," going to Comd Benefits, etc. I see that a player can bring two "Wraith Host" Auxiliaries, but your list, Xerics:

Windrider Host
Farseer Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Windriders x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x6
Vyper (Naked)
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon

, excludes the WraithLords and WraithGuard that need to be with them. What am I missing?


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 Ghazkuul wrote:
If that is the case then the Eldar codex is 100% broken and beyond salvage.

Stay tuned Ghaz, let's hash this out. Plus, look it over for yourself, whenever you get a hold of this book. It is the usual not-clear-as-day text from GW.

'Course, somebody is gonna state that it is clear-as-day, and if I cannot make sense of it then I must be ...

Wraith Construct Auxillary

 Xerics wrote:
Wraith Construct Auxillary

Oh, for hell's sake, it's right there, bottom right hand corner of the page and under my nose.

Congrats, sir. Match well played.


- - - - - -- - -- - - -
Okay, I think we've found the thing that TOs will ban ... CraftWorld Warhost lists, which are basically, as already stated, lookin' like decurion goofery.

Seriously, Xerics, thanks for a patient discussion on citations and such. It's nice to have one without resorting to trolling.


I encourage more posting and examination of these two pages and how they seem to play out. Pages 94 & 95, CraftWorld Warhost.

 Xerics wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
If you think the codex is balanced and that the formations are limiting I present you this 1850 List

Windrider Host
Farseer Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Windriders x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x6
Vyper (Naked)
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon

Anyone who thinks this Dex is balanced I just ran the above list in a local game store tournament. I literally lost 1 wraith knight the entire night because a necron player had a nightbringer that happened to randomly get his D weapon on the top of the first turn and one shotted the wraithknight with 8 lost wounds and no saves allowed. Other than that I wiped the floor with imperial Knights, Ferrus Manus, Dark Eldar and nearly tabled the necrons. Running 4 wraithknights like I did is literally point and click unit removal.

TBH when I see your list I see a boring mono dimensional rock-paper-scissor list not unbeatable uber list. Out of curiosity what type of missions were played at this tournament?

Wraithknights are definitely undercosted and a list full of them is going to stomp the unprepared and unwary. I also cannot say that I like D weapons from a design stand point. However having said that the full wraithknight treatment like that list has common predators which were already popular contenders in tournaments. Examples of bad matchups are; drop pod grav cents lists, a freak show lists, or a WWP wraithguard D-Scythe lists each of which can eliminate 3+ wraithknights in a single turn. (funny enough the freak show list could actually kill the entire above list in a single turn with bad model placement, lol)

7th lets you play unbound already. You can take incredibly abusive lists already completely "legally".

If a player is taking 4x WKs, it's a TFG, right? Play an entire list of Necron Wraiths or something if you really want to join the race to the bottom.

GW broke the FOC restrictions intentionally to give players more freedom. Obviously it's a double edged sword!

Freedom of picking stuff is only a double edged sword, if you know that some armies have it much better then others do. If all armies are good it wouldn't matter, which codex decides to be unbound and which doesn't.

Not sure as an Tyranid player I am going to force eldar jetbikes to make a jink save when I have one unit (Exocrine, which they outrange by 12 inches) with a 3+ AP ranged weapon. I do have Warp Blast as a psychic attack, but that is even shorter range, I don't see me getting them into close combat, ever. My only chance would be with Flyrants, and only then because they lack the ability to skyfire, at least I hope they don't have some way to skyfire. But I also hear the fighter they have has some new, nasty rules so even the flyrants are going to be in trouble by the sounds of it.

It sounds as if all of their units got some improvement (except Waveserpent) and then this new force chart of theirs gives even more advantages. I really don't see how that sounds balanced, especially against the midline codices they produced for awhile.

 ansacs wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
If you think the codex is balanced and that the formations are limiting I present you this 1850 List

Windrider Host
Farseer Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Windriders x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x6
Vyper (Naked)
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon

Anyone who thinks this Dex is balanced I just ran the above list in a local game store tournament. I literally lost 1 wraith knight the entire night because a necron player had a nightbringer that happened to randomly get his D weapon on the top of the first turn and one shotted the wraithknight with 8 lost wounds and no saves allowed. Other than that I wiped the floor with imperial Knights, Ferrus Manus, Dark Eldar and nearly tabled the necrons. Running 4 wraithknights like I did is literally point and click unit removal.

TBH when I see your list I see a boring mono dimensional rock-paper-scissor list not unbeatable uber list. Out of curiosity what type of missions were played at this tournament?

Wraithknights are definitely undercosted and a list full of them is going to stomp the unprepared and unwary. I also cannot say that I like D weapons from a design stand point. However having said that the full wraithknight treatment like that list has common predators which were already popular contenders in tournaments. Examples of bad matchups are; drop pod grav cents lists, a freak show lists, or a WWP wraithguard D-Scythe lists each of which can eliminate 3+ wraithknights in a single turn. (funny enough the freak show list could actually kill the entire above list in a single turn with bad model placement, lol)

Random missions. I played both maelstrom and eternal war. Also remember that D scythes are D -1 so they cant get one shots. the wraithknight would be able to take his 5+ FNP from every hit.


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And drop pod grav cents might kill one before i smash them to pieces. I killed a primarch last night and he had a 3+ invulnerable save against the majority of my hits. also grav cents can be killed from wight of fire from guided jetbikes so there is that too. Wraithknights don't fear Dark Eldar anymore cause gargantuan creature can only be poisoned on a 6 now. The can shoot all their weapons as per the Gargantuan creatures rules so having those star cannons allows me to deal with more units with wraithknights. I played this list. Yes last night I was TFG. But i did it to prove a point. The list was untouchable. even a 5 Imperial Knight army cried and I let him all veteran knights (with the 3+ invulnerable save) just to make the game interesting.

"the wraithknight would be able to take his 5+ FNP from every hit"

Not on this one, FnP is specifically denied for D weapons, doesn't matter what the roll is.

Ok so no FNP rolls. But you are still having to use the Eldar codex against the Eldar codex. I am pretty sure we established that the only matchup for the eldar codex is itself.

(sarcasm) Well that proves it then. The eldar codex is totally balanced because you could easily beat it by using the eldar codex. (sarcasm)

Gonna love us some eldarhammer.

Well, I could bring an unbound list of 2 stompas and max them out with Supa Rokkitz and then IF i get firs turn I have a chance of maybe downing 1 of the 4 WK's and then probably get blown off the board the following turn because i just invested about 1,500pts into 2 models

My only chance would be with Flyrants, and only then because they lack the ability to skyfire, at least I hope they don't have some way to skyfire. But I also hear the fighter they have has some new, nasty rules so even the flyrants are going to be in trouble by the sounds of it.

Lots of EML available in the new Codex, from what I've been reading, and flak missiles seem to be standard on units that can take them... which, again, are lots of units.

Xerics wrote:Random missions. I played both maelstrom and eternal war.

So is this like the ITC with a primary and secondary or did you guys play one round with maelstorm and then another with eternal war?

Xerics wrote:Also remember that D scythes are D -1 so they cant get one shots. the wraithknight would be able to take his 5+ FNP from every hit.

One of the units I find the most abusive in the new codex is a unit of wraithguard with either gun + a WWP DE HQ attached. The D-Scythe unit comes down wherever you want and flames any target to death (even against the double D wraithknight a single shooting round averages more than a dead wraithknight). The unit then has wall of death to ward off any retaliating charges, btw 2 D-scythes on wall of death almost average a dead wraithknight. Personally I would probably also add a waveserpent to transport the unit so after they DS and shoot they can jump back in next turn.

Xerics wrote:And drop pod grav cents might kill one before i smash them to pieces. I killed a primarch last night and he had a 3+ invulnerable save against the majority of my hits. also grav cents can be killed from wight of fire from guided jetbikes so there is that too. Wraithknights don't fear Dark Eldar anymore cause gargantuan creature can only be poisoned on a 6 now. The can shoot all their weapons as per the Gargantuan creatures rules so having those star cannons allows me to deal with more units with wraithknights. I played this list. Yes last night I was TFG. But i did it to prove a point. The list was untouchable. even a 5 Imperial Knight army cried and I let him all veteran knights (with the 3+ invulnerable save) just to make the game interesting.

Of course you killed a primarch. That is exactly the type of target the double D wraithknight is perfect for killing. Any single model with lots of wounds is a single 6 away from death, invulnerable save or no.

Drop pod cents are cheaper than a bare bones wraithknight. If the meta shifts to 4-5 wraithknight lists then I shift to Imperial Fists/Blood Angels with 3 units of drop pod grav cents. The funny thing is that grav cents are lethal against all of the stuff that people are scared of in the eldar codex and they will almost undoubtedly get the alpha strike due to drop pods. Depending on whether I took libbies for my mandatory HQs and whether I got off prescience and took omni's on the sarges I would average 3-4 dead wraithknights in a single turn from just the dev cents shooting. Of course cover can mitigate some of it (but then again I would probably have more Str8/9 AP3/2 that could help if needed and I might get better psychic powers). The hardest part of the match would be positioning my units so that they cover the movement spheres of your remaining knight while still being in range of each other if you charge one unit (the remaining knight could realistically kill 1-2 of the cent dev units the following turn depending on luck and placement of the pod for cover and charge blocking). I never would have taken this style of list before as there was a very nasty mechanized list that it was a very poor matchup (ie serpent spam) but that isn't a problem anymore.

There are actually a few of the lists I commonly play that are very good matchups against 4-5 wraithknight lists. Mostly just because they have a mass of grav shooting or monster hunter/tank hunter plasma and the units which do all the work are either fast enough or DS in so the wraithknights cannot avoid them.

BTW even before this upgrade the wraithknight vs imperial knight matchup was almost always won by the wraithknight. You can actually find several batreps and I have seen it numerous times. Now it is just pathetically obvious.

Psienesis wrote:

My only chance would be with Flyrants, and only then because they lack the ability to skyfire, at least I hope they don't have some way to skyfire. But I also hear the fighter they have has some new, nasty rules so even the flyrants are going to be in trouble by the sounds of it.

Lots of EML available in the new Codex, from what I've been reading, and flak missiles seem to be standard on units that can take them... which, again, are lots of units.

EML are not a threat for flyrants. The crimson hunter formation very well could be though.

To counter an OP model everyone so far as pointed to either using more Eldar OP crap to counter Eldar OP crap or pointing to SM Grav Cents, regarded as OP in that they are amazing but they aren't as OP because of Price and the fact that they die fairly easy.

So besides SM and other Eldar players I would like to hear from members of the other races and see how they plan on countering this new threat.

Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To counter an OP model everyone so far as pointed to either using more Eldar OP crap to counter Eldar OP crap or pointing to SM Grav Cents, regarded as OP in that they are amazing but they aren't as OP because of Price and the fact that they die fairly easy.

So besides SM and other Eldar players I would like to hear from members of the other races and see how they plan on countering this new threat.

Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

Lootas have S7 shots dont they? You could throw a bunch of lootas at it and hope it dies under weight of fire.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

Off the top of my head...hidden power klaws, tankbustas, KMKs or other mek gunz, maybe nobz or meganobz depending on the loadout and numbers, or some combination of the above. You'd need a special "knight killa" loadout for some of them. Now, one WK is doable, tough obviously but for 300 points you expect tough. But four or five of them? You'd have to have an army specially designed around killing WKs. Honestly, even that would be pretty hard to manage.

Lootas...even 45 shots comes out to 15 hits, 5 wounds, and 1 or 2 failed saves. You'd need 3 full size loota mobs shooting at one WK to reasonably expect to bring it down in two turns, and you'd need to be lucky. Kannons or KMKs could maybe manage a wound for every four or five shots, but they're cheap so that's reasonable. Sadly they're heavy support like lootas, so you couldn't do both. Tankbustas could put a wound or two on it for each mob, depending on numbers, either shooting or CC. Dakkajets or bikes have volume of shots and high(er) odds to hit, but need 6s to wound and it gets its 3+ save, so you'd need 3 dakkajets to reliably put one wound on it, or 36 bikes.

Basically your whole army would have to shoot at it and it would still take a few turns and a lot of luck.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So besides SM and other Eldar players I would like to hear from members of the other races and see how they plan on countering this new threat.

Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

Meganobs ? Maybe 3 to 4 nobs die at Init step 4, but then the other 6 (unit of 10, yes?) can carve the WraithKnight up? If it's only 5 Megas max, then get yourself a squiggoth. PM MikeFox on how to get a cheap one from China:

Scroll down to almost half way:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/629731.page

I play tau, too. And SM. And CSM. Wolves and DeathWing. DE. I have a Pask Force and veterans and Vendettas.

Tau: The Buff Crisis Team, STR 6 & 8, AP 2 & 1, TwinLinked. More Fusion/Melta on my other teams. Loads of Broadside STR 7.
SM: MLs, LCs, Termie fists & Hammers. SternG inna Pod with meltas.
IG: Plasma'cutioners, LasCans on the Vens, and the Veterans will bring a few meltas. Not guaranteed, but enough to bloody its nose.
DE: It was a 5e list, but I could bring 24 lances at 1850. I haven't bought the 7e dex but I bet I can get it in the ball park.
Wolves: I don't own TWC models, but they won't care about the WK.

It will be alright. Keep playing.

 Brothererekose wrote:
It will be alright. Keep playing.

Lol! "Keep calm and 40k on"

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To counter an OP model everyone so far as pointed to either using more Eldar OP crap to counter Eldar OP crap or pointing to SM Grav Cents, regarded as OP in that they are amazing but they aren't as OP because of Price and the fact that they die fairly easy.

So besides SM and other Eldar players I would like to hear from members of the other races and see how they plan on countering this new threat.

Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

If you're that set against the Wraithknight, my solution is simple: don't play against it.

Really, the Wraithknight is so OP it's obvious even to Eldar players (even if some don't want to admit it). D-weapons are also massively undercosted in the new codex. Same with Jetbikes. If I were you, I simply wouldn't play against armies that included these units. No game is preferable to an awful, unfun game.

But if you remove these elements, the new Eldar are actually surprisingly balanced against other armies. The Warhost isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be; outside of jetbikes, the core is very restrictive and will cost your opponent 950-1000 points to make it work. And that's before the mandatory auxiliary formations, each of which are just as restrictive.

Really, it's a case of avoiding games with the local Eldar cheesemonger, and you might even get in a good game against the space elves.

I have not had the chance to look at the codex myself, but from what I have heard, I do agree.

The jetbikes and wraithknight are brokenly good, especially when spammed. However, most other things in the codex sound like they are good, workable but ultimately rather fair and balanced.

Tournament comp can handle the problem in a competitive setting, and you can always refuse a game in a friendly/pickup setting. I have not really run in to the problem of friends doing too cheesy lists, but that seems easy to fix. If anything, I have to admit, my own lists are the ones who at times can be too harsh in our group.

And why does that matter? I do not know about others, but I at least always feel like a muppet when I misjudge the strength of a list and end up with a one sided game. Being on either the winning or losing side of such a game tends to be no fun. I am sure most eldar players agree there too.

On the other hand, in a tournament you sort of have to deal with it, and it is on the organiser to balance the game in one way or another, even if the wide differences in power levels make it harder.

Ratflinger wrote:
I have not had the chance to look at the codex myself, but from what I have heard, I do agree.

The jetbikes and wraithknight are brokenly good, especially when spammed. However, most other things in the codex sound like they are good, workable but ultimately rather fair and balanced.

Tournament comp can handle the problem in a competitive setting, and you can always refuse a game in a friendly/pickup setting. I have not really run in to the problem of friends doing too cheesy lists, but that seems easy to fix. If anything, I have to admit, my own lists are the ones who at times can be too harsh in our group.

And why does that matter? I do not know about others, but I at least always feel like a muppet when I misjudge the strength of a list and end up with a one sided game. Being on either the winning or losing side of such a game tends to be no fun. I am sure most eldar players agree there too.

On the other hand, in a tournament you sort of have to deal with it, and it is on the organiser to balance the game in one way or another, even if the wide differences in power levels make it harder.

Hot Deals! Pay 80$ and have a chance of reading our amazing rules to ballance them out yourself afterwards!

Meganobz vs WK. Nope. to get them into assault range you need a dedicated transport. trukks will die with 1 shot from a D weapon and hell so will battlewagonz. if you foot slog them they die in droves before they get their. If you stuffed 10 Meganobz into a Battlewagon and managed to get lucky enough to not get blown off the table on turn 1 or 2 then you could jump out and assault and maybe then they would win....heres the problem with that though. 10 meganobz and a battlewagon means you just sunk about 600pts into killing a 300pt model. And even then, the 300pt model has a fairly good chance of coming out on top.

regular nobz? same problem and only the PK's can hurt so your paying more for PK nobz then for meganobz. not a good option.

Lootaz? 15 lootas average 2 shots a turn. 30 shots = 10 hits = 4ish wounds and 1 failed save from armor/FNP. So I would need 3 full squads of lootaz, good dice rolls and it will still live until turn 3 or 4. And that of course is if nothing shoots them off the table with their squishy 6+ Armor and LD7.

Mek Gunz? KMK has a good chance of inflicting wounds but thats 30pts minimum for a single gun that can get hot and thats if you hit. of course the WK still gets its FNP. so a full battery of 5 one will get hot and 1 will scatter off completey so average 2 hits and 1 wound . So a battery of 5 for over 150pts can inflict 1 wound per turn if its statistically average.

Bikes....Good choice honestly, Lots of TL Dakka, unfortunately its only S5 So it all wounds on 6s. So a 15 bike squad has 45shots TL so 25 hits and 4 - 5 wounds 2 ish failed armor saves and if your lucky 1-2 failed FNP's bikes inflict 2 wounds a turn. of course with a range of 18 you have to get those bikers close to the WK and that means Turn 1 your not shooting but turbo boosting.

HRR broadsides statistically do more damage to Wraithknights than HYMP ones do.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Meganobz vs WK. Nope. to get them into assault range you need a dedicated transport. trukks will die with 1 shot from a D weapon and hell so will battlewagonz. if you foot slog them they die in droves before they get their. If you stuffed 10 Meganobz into a Battlewagon and managed to get lucky enough to not get blown off the table on turn 1 or 2 then you could jump out and assault and maybe then they would win....heres the problem with that though. 10 meganobz and a battlewagon means you just sunk about 600pts into killing a 300pt model. And even then, the 300pt model has a fairly good chance of coming out on top.

A Battle Wagon fulla Meganobs does sound best, and for twice the points to eliminate the WK, yeah, that works.

Units balanced in points should mutually annihilate each other. So, yeah, double-dog pile the points to utterly kill one and have yours survive. War games aren't about fair fights. It's about putting 3 drop pods fulla meltas and plasma and Stern-spam. With Vulkan or Marney. And then fully torching down your enemy's HQ under the combined fire power. Anything left, have the ChapterM finish.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Bikes....Good choice honestly, Lots of TL Dakka, unfortunately its only S5 So it all wounds on 6s. So a 15 bike squad has 45shots TL so 25 hits and 4 - 5 wounds 2 ish failed armor saves and if your lucky 1-2 failed FNP's bikes inflict 2 wounds a turn. of course with a range of 18 you have to get those bikers close to the WK and that means Turn 1 your not shooting but turbo boosting.

... can't you equip with Claws for all?

I'm not saying either of these is a great option, Ghaz, but rage quitting before you get into a game is silly.

Best bet:
Play at tourneys, where they will likely have banned range D-weps, and LordsofWar are limited to one. I do.