What do you want whenever the new Tau codex comes around?
What i want:
Stealth Suit Commander
Farsight to either gain EW, or T5, and can take drone upgrades
Farsights sword to go back to the old rules (AP2, ignores invuns)
PLASTIC Kroot Knarlocs
Vespids to have new models and a buff
Battlesuits have a buyable upgrade for 2+ armour (no more limited to 1 2+ in an army)
Better Signature Systems
More customization for ethereals
Paradox if duality to also work in CC Hammerhead formation
Stealthsuit formation
Battlesuit formation
Sky ray formation
Stealth suits get the 'hard to hit' rule/constantly affected by Invisibility psychic power/ enemies that target them are WS and BS 1
Anything you want added whenever a new Tau codex comes out?
I haven't done Tau yet, but I was going to when the new codex came out. I didn't see any of those Humans in the Tau empire, so I never bothered.
I really want to see a Tau Emperium. Not just Vespids and a Kroot but actual Vespids in more than one role, Kroot in more than one roll, and actual Tauhuman faction.
This is my personal choice. I know for a lot Tau players don't want this, but I would start collecting Tau if they did this.
I would mainly like to see some incentives to bring more infantry and vehicle elements Pathfinders Fire Warriors, and Hammerheads instead of just suit spam. I love crisis suits but I dislike the tend of taking minimum troops and everything else suits. I would lose my mind and most of my money if GW actually expanded more on the while Tau Auxiliary aspect and released Gue'vesa and Tarellians with decent rules for them.
Vankraken wrote: I would mainly like to see some incentives to bring more infantry and vehicle elements Pathfinders Fire Warriors, and Hammerheads instead of just suit spam. I love crisis suits but I dislike the tend of taking minimum troops and everything else suits. I would lose my mind and most of my money if GW actually expanded more on the while Tau Auxiliary aspect and released Gue'vesa and Tarellians with decent rules for them.
How about a FW conversion kit to turnfire warriors into Gue'vesa?
Psienesis wrote: I want it to definitively answer a question that has been tearing gaming groups, fan-clubs and forums apart since the faction was introduced:
Do Tau women have boobs or not?
It's time to stop the madness.
Also... feet, or hooves? Are they space-fish or space-cows? C'mon!
They're clearly Blue Space-Fish-Goat Communists, geez, it's so simple man.
To do that I would drastically reduce the cost of the weapon upgrades (they aren't much better than the default burst cannons, worse in some cases, and cost a huge amount more) and make them a bit more survivable. T5 is good and all, but for the cost of model it doesn't cut it. Extra wound, default invulnerable save, or 2+ armour, take your pick.
I'm not holding out much hope as it's pretty rare for a model to migrate to main GW from FW, but hey ho! I just love the look of them, but they're never really worth taking over XV8s.
Aside from that:
I wouldn't mind ditching plasma for the whole army and focusing on Tau technology. So Rail Rifles for Crisis suits for example.
More options for firewarriors, such as options for special/heavy weapons, more interesting gear for the shas'ui, and so on.
Incentives to run an Auxilaries based army: kroot, vespid, gue'vesa, any of the others mentioned in the fluff, and tau leaders to control them, almost in a commissar type role.
Vankraken wrote: I would mainly like to see some incentives to bring more infantry and vehicle elements Pathfinders Fire Warriors, and Hammerheads instead of just suit spam. I love crisis suits but I dislike the tend of taking minimum troops and everything else suits. I would lose my mind and most of my money if GW actually expanded more on the while Tau Auxiliary aspect and released Gue'vesa and Tarellians with decent rules for them.
How about a FW conversion kit to turnfire warriors into Gue'vesa?
I want to see Gue'vesa as their own unit with their own look, equipment, and rules. Sure FW could make a conversion kit for them but if anything it should be for converting a Cadian kit (ill probably make some Cadian conversion allies for my Tau sometime down the line if GW doesn't release anything). At the very least it would be nice for them to have interesting rules from FW.
Well we have a good idea of what's coming. So wishlisting seems pointless.
So I want one of our rumored new troop options to be one of the following.
1. Jetpack Troopers
2. Heavy Weapons Troops.
We know four new kits are coming. One is likely to be the Crisis Commander/New Crisis Suites model, New Missile focused Riptide, tau fortification, and a new troop kit of some sort. The kit might be new/modified firewarriors that can make a new type of that troop.
Riptide nerf
Firebase support cadre nerf
Remove no-scatter trait to neuter farsight bombs
Make marker light cover point-for-point again.
I wouldn't mind virtually everything else in the codex getting better if those things were fixed. Make farsight a boss, decrease cost of crisis suit weapons, buff the vespid, etc etc. anything that will actually promote seeing more of the codex than "here's my allied firebase cadre," or "here's my riptides and farsight bomb with some sprinkled markerlights."
Davor wrote: This is my personal choice. I know for a lot Tau players don't want this, but I would start collecting Tau if they did this.
I want to see more auxiliaries, but I don't want it to get to the point where it overshadows the Tau themselves. Sadly I think that's exactly what everyone else wants; a Tau army with no actual Tau in it.
ChazSexington wrote: My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.
I want a nerf.
No, Chaos needs a buff.
Hawkeye888 wrote: A heavy battlesuit would be cool. Like a crisis terminator.
We have that, they're called broadsides. XV9's from FW, too.
I want More battlesuits, which have been redesigned from looking like they were built from 57 Chevy Bel-Airs to more sleek suits reminiscent of the Japanese samurai armor they are taken from.
A Skyray with (broadside) smart missile systems instead of the seeker missiles.
A modified Devilfish that replaces the crew compartment with a drone carrier array.
Upgrading a fire warrior Shas'ui to be equipped in a non-jump capable battlesuit (something a little larger than a Stealth suit)
Camo-cloaks for Pathfinders that grant cover save bonuses.
Remove ability for marker lights to affect overwatch, make marker lights remove cover on a point-for-point cost.
In the fluff there exists an XV46, which similarly to Terminator armour is a compact, heavily armoured suit designed for space combat and boarding. It needs to be small enough to fit through standard space ship corridors, and is fitted with close range weaponry suited for combat in such spaces.
New XV8 kits are near as confirmed as a rumour can be, based on reputable sources.
We don't need a ton of riptide variants, essentially allowing cheesier and cheesier lists. I'd say from a competitive standpoint, certainly post Necrons, we do need Riptides in their basic form to have a fighting chance.
We may not strictly NEED other new suits to have a functional army, but having some other viable builds than riptide spam or crisis deathstars would be nice.
A unit designed to lock enemy units in CC and hold them until other threats are dealt with, simply due to being very durable, could be useful, a fluffy way of dealing with enemy CC units, and open up new tactical options. I'm thinking TEQ bodies with wargear that triggers in assault with blinding/concussive effects, and flechette dischargers, plus vectored retro thrusters for when it gets too hot. The XV46 could totally fulfil that role, and their fluff says they have escape ejectors which makes it more plausible that Tau would allow them to get in to melee in the first place.
What I would like is some more of the races who are part of the Tau in the fluff to show up in the codex.. They have what, 12 races in the fluff as part of their army, Thats not in the codex..? Give us more of those!
I really want a point reduction on devil fish. I love the models and I love the idea of running some good old fish of furry, but devil fish are just so pricey they hardly ever feel worth it.
Also being able to switch out the gun drones for marker light drones on vehicles would be awesome. Maybe even shield drones if you had some kind of void shield like rule where the drones took the hits first.
Total revamp of rail weapons (especially on broadsides)
Broadsides getting tougher to kill to fit the model (and recosted appropriately)
Devilfish being less useless.
Vespid, just... Vespid....
New alien auxiliary would be nice.
These things are all fine and warranted. Some of the other treatments that sm got would be nice. Squadrons of hammerheads and skyrays. Formations that give you some bonuses to weaker units to give them a reason to be taken over more riptides.
Here's what I would like to see in the new Tau codex:
1. More expensive Riptide
2. More expensive missilesides
3. Markerlights reducing cover by 1 for each Markerlight spent
Also:
-New formations/Decurion for Tau
-More xenos mercenaries besides Kroot, make Vespid useable
-Crisis suit model update so they don't look like rejected designs from Mobile Suit Gundam Wing.
I would just like to have the Broadsides be able to move and not snap fire. They are currenly only infantry so every time I need to move them all my missles are snap firing. Bring back the stabilizers from last edition as an upgrade even. or based on size, make them MCs so they are relentless.
redleger wrote: I would just like to have the Broadsides be able to move and not snap fire. They are currenly only infantry so every time I need to move them all my missles are snap firing. Bring back the stabilizers from last edition as an upgrade even. or based on size, make them MCs so they are relentless.
Id be fine with that - they would need point increase though.
redleger wrote: I would just like to have the Broadsides be able to move and not snap fire. They are currenly only infantry so every time I need to move them all my missles are snap firing. Bring back the stabilizers from last edition as an upgrade even. or based on size, make them MCs so they are relentless.
Or just... make them Relentless, without giving them a massive close-combat buff?
Madoch1 wrote: On one hand i want a nerd to there shooting. nothing specific but seriously they have way too much shooting. or maybe an armor nerf.
Also some rules for gue vesa
Not going to happen. That's all we got. Regular Tau Empire has been mostly irrelevant except as an allied detachment. Everything in our codex sucks compared to XV8's and Riptides FSE is where the cheese is. Without FSE I guarantee you Tau would not be doing as good as it is today. No one can or does play competitive standard Tau Empire anymore. It's not doable. It simply lacks in too much shooting compared to FSE and mobility. Regular Tau needs a buff, but that can't just be applied to FSE. I suspect both codices will be rolled into one and hopefully balanced appropriately.
I'm still probably being more prophetic than people are giving me credit for by calling a formation that will let you field Riptides in a squad.
1. Y'vahra.
2. R'varna.
3. Kroot become ASSAULT infantry - their guns made Assault, Initative 4, Furious Charge.
4. Buff to railguns - Hammerhead gets D or +1 on Vehicle Damage Table. Broadsied get Str9 or 10.
5. Pathfinders get Stealth.
6. Optional: Markerlights become Assault.
7. Vespides become Jet Pack infantry.
8. Give Broadsides Relentless.
9. Cheaper Commander.
10. Cheaper Devilfish.
1. Y'vahra.
Nope FW. We're likely getting a new GW Riptide anyways.
2. R'varna.
See above.
3. Kroot become ASSAULT infantry - their guns made Assault, Initative 4, Furious Charge.
Kroot might not even be in our dex since we're rumored to get a new Firewarrior box which makes two different troop choices. So look to see them in their own Merc dex. Assuming the rumors are true and they have been very accurate.
4. Buff to railguns - Hammerhead gets D or +1 on Vehicle Damage Table. Broadsied get Str9 or 10.
I agree. I almost feel the HH needs two twin linked shots at Str 10. Broadside would do well at 9. 10 seems a little too much for it.
5. Pathfinders get Stealth.
Agree. Also a points drop. They die like fruit flies and no one ever takes them for ML anymore. You know what. Remove ML if you need to bring their points down and make it an optional upgrade. Also let them take more special weapons options.
6. Optional: Markerlights become Assault.
Hmm.... I dunno about this. I think our ML is really good as it is. If they intend to nerf ML effectiveness then yes I agree. Otherwise no.
7. Vespides become Jet Pack infantry.
Yes and come down in price.
8. Give Broadsides Relentless.
Yes. Or at least the option to purchase it as an upgrade.
9. Cheaper Commander.
Hmm... maybe a small tiny price drop. Doesn't need to be too much.
10. Cheaper Devilfish.
Hell yes.
And, ofc, Decurion, formations, etc...
Calling it now one formaiton will let us take Riptide squadrons.
As for me? Make our codex fliers not gakky. Please. I want a reason to field them. A reason to even look at them. They are a complete joke and some of the worst fliers I've seen really.
Pathfinders moved to the troop slot. ( allowed people to take some varied configs , railrifel/ion rifle ect ) without destroying markerlight support
Drones not counting toward casualty moral roles ( at the very least shield drones ) 1/2 the units that can take them make it easier for the unit to run off the board , that's backwards
Devilfish - like 30 points off it . Its great its a skimmer , but i would KILL for fireports or some real weapons on it
Kroot - I have no idea why these guys when from the barbaric assulty guys with 2 weapons to bad snipers . Put them back to what they were.
Vespid - Point decrease , they were never bad , but they only excell in city building fights and most people can't be arsed to set that board up. Plus see pathfinders , limit FOC slot was a issue
Markerlights - Give the marker drone back its networked markerlight , go back to the -1 per token cover system. Make seeker missiles not require the vehicle carrying them to shoot the same target when spending a token
Psycher - I'm fine with not having psychers or no defence against psychers , but not both . There are psycher races in the tau empire , bring em in.
Riptide - incraese cost of the IA , maybe make a single Gets hot roll for HBC tides.
Crisis suits - reduce the cost of the shield gen (20p) , when was the last time a non fluffy list used one ?
Broadsides - HRR needs to not suck , we went from s10 TL shot to a s8 TL shot , either make it hit harder or make it fire more. HYMP - probably a cost increase
Hammerhead - Its just underwhelming and not very threatening . I'm not saying s10 ap 1 is bad , but its a single shot , its meh on a lot of levels
Sunshark/razor shark - more meh , maybe see more use if not competing with pathfinders for FOC slot
Madoch1 wrote: On one hand i want a nerd to there shooting. nothing specific but seriously they have way too much shooting. or maybe an armor nerf.
Also some rules for gue vesa
Except that's all Tau can do. Nerf Tau shooting too much and the army doesn't work anymore.
Which of course is exactly what you and everyone else wants anyway, but you have to realize that's not reasonable nor is it realistically going to happen.
And what do you mean an armor nerf? No one takes Tau vehicles because they're so crap as it is. If you're talking about saves, battlesuits are the only thing in the book with a worthwhile save and it kinda makes sense for them to have it. If you're just talking about the riptide in particular being too durable then yeah, that's a given.
I want a reason to take sniper drone teams. No one ever talks about them. They aren't very cool either. Kind of boring looking. Not very good. Even when our codex was new it was that one useless unit. I'm not saying make it buffed to super levels or anything, but make it a little better.
Edit
If the wraithknight didn't get priced so cheaply I would be up for a price increase of our Riptides, but they did so I'm all for keeping them the same.
Madoch1 wrote: On one hand i want a nerd to there shooting. nothing specific but seriously they have way too much shooting. or maybe an armor nerf.
Also some rules for gue vesa
Except that's all Tau can do. Nerf Tau shooting too much and the army doesn't work anymore.
Which of course is exactly what you and everyone else wants anyway, but you have to realize that's not reasonable nor is it realistically going to happen.
And what do you mean an armor nerf? No one takes Tau vehicles because they're so crap as it is. If you're talking about saves, battlesuits are the only thing in the book with a worthwhile save and it kinda makes sense for them to have it. If you're just talking about the riptide in particular being too durable then yeah, that's a given.
By shooting nerf I mean overwatch wise. In my experience it is near impossible to get into cc because of the supporting fire rule.
Disregard my comment on armor because I guess the fire warriors saves aren't too difficult to deal with.
Gamgee wrote: I want a reason to take sniper drone teams. No one ever talks about them. They aren't very cool either. Kind of boring looking. Not very good. Even when our codex was new it was that one useless unit. I'm not saying make it buffed to super levels or anything, but make it a little better.
Edit
If the wraithknight didn't get priced so cheaply I would be up for a price increase of our Riptides, but they did so I'm all for keeping them the same.
You should try spamming sniper drones with Ethereal support if you think they're useless...
A nerf. A big one.
Fuckit, I did a doubles game with a Tau player. Every shooting phase essentially came down to me mopping up what was left of his targets. 2 Rapetides, 2 Firewarrior squads, a Pathfinder Squad, 2 Devilfish and a Hammerhead at BS5. feth it. feth it with a barge pole.
The GK opponent pretty much vanished and by turn three only had a 5 man Purifier squad and his commander left.
The DA opponent faired better, but only because his three fighters could jink like no tomorrow and his re-rolls saved him many times over. His Knights dropped in and my entire army succeeded in killing 4 of them. That is 1.3K's worth of IG firing, with 2 Battletanks, 2 Exterminators, an Eradicator, 2 Veteran squads with Heavy Bolters and a Comapny Command Squad. And we only just killed 4 of the knights. The remaining one was killed by a lazy riptide that had no other targets at the time.
That was... Just broken. That said my IG also suffer from being a bottom end codex so,,,,,,
*Flip the Range on the HBC and IA.
*Ditch the Gets Hot on the HBC.
*Stealth Suits to Fast Attack.
*Pathfinders as a troop choice with stealth or infiltrate instead of scout.
Pathfinders moved to the troop slot. ( allowed people to take some varied configs , railrifel/ion rifle ect ) without destroying markerlight support
Drones not counting toward casualty moral roles ( at the very least shield drones ) 1/2 the units that can take them make it easier for the unit to run off the board , that's backwards
Devilfish - like 30 points off it . Its great its a skimmer , but i would KILL for fireports or some real weapons on it
Kroot - I have no idea why these guys when from the barbaric assulty guys with 2 weapons to bad snipers . Put them back to what they were.
Vespid - Point decrease , they were never bad , but they only excell in city building fights and most people can't be arsed to set that board up. Plus see pathfinders , limit FOC slot was a issue
Markerlights - Give the marker drone back its networked markerlight , go back to the -1 per token cover system. Make seeker missiles not require the vehicle carrying them to shoot the same target when spending a token
Psycher - I'm fine with not having psychers or no defence against psychers , but not both . There are psycher races in the tau empire , bring em in.
Riptide - incraese cost of the IA , maybe make a single Gets hot roll for HBC tides.
Crisis suits - reduce the cost of the shield gen (20p) , when was the last time a non fluffy list used one ?
Broadsides - HRR needs to not suck , we went from s10 TL shot to a s8 TL shot , either make it hit harder or make it fire more. HYMP - probably a cost increase
Hammerhead - Its just underwhelming and not very threatening . I'm not saying s10 ap 1 is bad , but its a single shot , its meh on a lot of levels
Sunshark/razor shark - more meh , maybe see more use if not competing with pathfinders for FOC slot
Some of this wishlisting I can get behind, but not all.
Drones counting toward casualties is a necessary balancing feature for what they provide to the unit. Besides, leadership has always been a traditional Tau weakness. If I had my way, drones wouldn't be able to leave the unit they joined. Take that, Commander "Mark'o"!
Kroot never were very good at close combat; sniper rounds saved them from going the way of the Vespids. In any case, Tau aren't allowed to be good in CC.
I can get behind something like a Primaris Psyker for Tau, but they would have to be limited in the sorts of spells they can cast. The Tau don't show up in the Warp and should therefore distrust psykers, especially after seeing what Chaos can do. That said, more alien mercenaries would be a welcome addition.
master of ordinance wrote:A nerf. A big one.
Fuckit, I did a doubles game with a Tau player. Every shooting phase essentially came down to me mopping up what was left of his targets. 2 Rapetides, 2 Firewarrior squads, a Pathfinder Squad, 2 Devilfish and a Hammerhead at BS5. feth it. feth it with a barge pole.
The GK opponent pretty much vanished and by turn three only had a 5 man Purifier squad and his commander left.
The DA opponent faired better, but only because his three fighters could jink like no tomorrow and his re-rolls saved him many times over. His Knights dropped in and my entire army succeeded in killing 4 of them. That is 1.3K's worth of IG firing, with 2 Battletanks, 2 Exterminators, an Eradicator, 2 Veteran squads with Heavy Bolters and a Comapny Command Squad. And we only just killed 4 of the knights. The remaining one was killed by a lazy riptide that had no other targets at the time.
That was... Just broken. That said my IG also suffer from being a bottom end codex so,,,,,,
Remember the last time a powerful codex was set to be updated and people called for it to be nerfed? I'm starting to think that GW's design team operates on the principle of reverse psychology.
master of ordinance wrote: A nerf. A big one. Fuckit, I did a doubles game with a Tau player. Every shooting phase essentially came down to me mopping up what was left of his targets. 2 Rapetides, 2 Firewarrior squads, a Pathfinder Squad, 2 Devilfish and a Hammerhead at BS5. feth it. feth it with a barge pole. The GK opponent pretty much vanished and by turn three only had a 5 man Purifier squad and his commander left. The DA opponent faired better, but only because his three fighters could jink like no tomorrow and his re-rolls saved him many times over. His Knights dropped in and my entire army succeeded in killing 4 of them. That is 1.3K's worth of IG firing, with 2 Battletanks, 2 Exterminators, an Eradicator, 2 Veteran squads with Heavy Bolters and a Comapny Command Squad. And we only just killed 4 of the knights. The remaining one was killed by a lazy riptide that had no other targets at the time.
That was... Just broken. That said my IG also suffer from being a bottom end codex so,,,,,,
this will happen to GK always because they are such low model counts every time...
Generalized nerfs to the Ion accelerator only. Various points shifting of wargear. mostly the FNP one and EWO. BUFFS to Stealth suits by way a decent point reduction (i love these little things. older ones not the new potato suit.)
Change Marker lights to possibly salvo with range increase 2/1 or something like that (however its listed) makes pathfinders more maneuverable to avoid static play... ish. also kinda makes taking markerdrones on individual units kinda worth it. Edit: Also give Pathfinder stealth or some kinda stealth wargear like that useless specialty drones. Also make drones not count for moral.
Replace Supporting Fire with Darkstrider's feigned retreat rule. This would mean less boring gunlines and more mobile, in your face type tactics. More fun for those playing Tau and playing against them.
Jefffar wrote: Replace Supporting Fire with Darkstrider's feigned retreat rule. This would mean less boring gunlines and more mobile, in your face type tactics. More fun for those playing Tau and playing against them.
While i like that idea, you can get super cheesy with it by completely blocking off charges because of the way the assault rules are written.
I think one of the easy way to deal with it is to make markerligtes not work in overwatch. and maybe only allow 1 unit to assist with except to maybe if they have some kinda rule or wargear purchased.
Half of these things are just stupid ideas just so you can make Tau the new Necrons, Stealth suits where 6s are always needed to hit them? They are called Stealth suits not invisible suits, hence why they have stealth, Broadsides given relentless is understandable, but defiantly not monstrous creatures
Vulkan Fran'cis wrote: Half of these things are just stupid ideas just so you can make Tau the new Necrons, Stealth suits where 6s are always needed to hit them? They are called Stealth suits not invisible suits, hence why they have stealth, Broadsides given relentless is understandable, but defiantly not monstrous creatures
Stealth suits used to have something like it, 12+ 2d6 before any shots could hit them iirc. Personally, I'd kinda like to see something like that again.
Well, we can expect Decurion-style big formation and smaller ones (I'd bet 2 cores - one for Mont'ka, other for Kayuon - 1 Command and 6-8 Auxiliaries), alongside a new Riptide, another kind of troop and a fortification.
I want new stuff. Our codex is one of the smallest ones, regarding the full-fledged ones - 25 unit entries, while Eldar has more than 40!
As for wishlisting... vehicles with an upgrade to shoot as if they were Fast vehicles, as they had in the previous codex. Losing that was an open invite for fielding Riptide and Crisis instead.
commander dante wrote:What do you want whenever the new Tau codex comes around?
What i want:
Stealth Suit Commander
Farsight to either gain EW, or T5, and can take drone upgrades
Farsights sword to go back to the old rules (AP2, ignores invuns)
Battlesuits have a buyable upgrade for 2+ armour (no more limited to 1 2+ in an army)
Better Signature Systems
More customization for ethereals
Paradox if duality to also work in CC Hammerhead formation
Stealthsuit formation
Battlesuit formation
Sky ray formation
Stealth suits get the 'hard to hit' rule/constantly affected by Invisibility psychic power/ enemies that target them are WS and BS 1
Stealth Suit Commander? Dunno. Shadowsun already does that.
Farsight really deserves EW. He's 300ish years old! And some kind of Wound-sucking mechanic (if kill a model, recover 1 Wound previously lost)
Ignoring invul is too strong... having fleshbane would make sense.
2+ Armour Crisis would be the new hot fuzz, like Multi-trackers were in the past codex. Only EWO could compete
The SigSystems are pretty good to me, bar 2. I fear they'll limit the number of them per models, though.
The formations are expected (as squadrons for Sky Rays and Hammerheads)
Ethereals need all the help they can get. I'd give Aun'Shi better rules (even Preferred Enemy (all), now that he went in a trip to Comorragh and must have fought against everything this galaxy has to offer). Let Aun'Va join units
The Stealth Suit rule makes much more sense than Shrouded
Psienesis wrote:
Also... feet, or hooves? Are they space-fish or space-cows? C'mon!
Tau has absolutely no fish biology references, only bovine (IIRC, they evolved from bovine-like creatures). Only their vehicles are named as fish stuff. The miniatures clearly have hooves.
Stux wrote:XV9s moved to main codex and made worthwhile.
To do that I would drastically reduce the cost of the weapon upgrades (they aren't much better than the default burst cannons, worse in some cases, and cost a huge amount more) and make them a bit more survivable. T5 is good and all, but for the cost of model it doesn't cut it. Extra wound, default invulnerable save, or 2+ armour, take your pick.
I'm not holding out much hope as it's pretty rare for a model to migrate to main GW from FW, but hey ho! I just love the look of them, but they're never really worth taking over XV8s.
Aside from that:
I wouldn't mind ditching plasma for the whole army and focusing on Tau technology. So Rail Rifles for Crisis suits for example.
More options for firewarriors, such as options for special/heavy weapons, more interesting gear for the shas'ui, and so on.
Incentives to run an Auxilaries based army: kroot, vespid, gue'vesa, any of the others mentioned in the fluff, and tau leaders to control them, almost in a commissar type role.
Nice thinking on the XV9, but I wouldn't hold my hopes. I don't think FW will change them anytime soon, or GW bringing them in.
Interesting point on experimental weapons. Crisis with Ion Rifles could be a good substitute to Missile Pods (and 2 S8 blasts per crisis!), while Rail Rifles could deal with marines better than Plasma (better range)
New options for our troops = pretty ok in my book.
I'd like more auxiliaries, yes. But I fear they'll have their own book and the Tau Codex will become clean of other xenos.
Stormonu wrote:A Skyray with (broadside) smart missile systems instead of the seeker missiles.
A modified Devilfish that replaces the crew compartment with a drone carrier array.
Camo-cloaks for Pathfinders that grant cover save bonuses. I'd go as far as giving them Infiltrate as well.
Remove ability for marker lights to affect overwatch, make marker lights remove cover on a point-for-point cost.
There's something similar: Missile Pod Turret for Hammerheads in IA3.
Drone carrier devilfish sounds nice. Even better, a Tervigon-like vehicle, producing drones the entire battle!
Pathfinders are basically our Scouts, so such upgrade would make sense.
old rules MLs are a constant wish from the community; let's see if GW will listen. But with new DA overwatch, I don't want to see ML support going away for overwatch. This was our trick :(
Gamgee wrote:You know what's actually going to happen?
Riptide squads if you take a formation.
Give in to your inner cheese. You know this to be true. /muahahah
Warzone Damocles already has a Riptide formation, as many others for Tau. Some of them are pretty tame and I'd like to see them in our book (like the drone, piranha and hammerhead ones)
Kroot flyer? haha lol, it would compete with Orks on the most ramshackle thing able to fly in the game!
shyzo wrote:What I want:
1. Y'vahra.
2. R'varna.
3. Kroot become ASSAULT infantry - their guns made Assault, Initative 4, Furious Charge.
4. Buff to railguns - Hammerhead gets D or +1 on Vehicle Damage Table. Broadsied get Str9 or 10.
5. Pathfinders get Stealth.
6. Optional: Markerlights become Assault.
7. Vespides become Jet Pack infantry.
8. Give Broadsides Relentless.
9. Cheaper Commander.
10. Cheaper Devilfish.
1 & 2: IA14. No chance to come up in our codex.
3: makes sense. Hope they do it
4: yes! Broadsides won't come back to S10, I think. But they could get Heavy 2, at least. All railguns should get Armourbane or Lance
5: yes
6: don't think so. even as heavy you can mitigate that (tetras, remoras, sky rays, XV84, drones) - imagine if pathfinders could walk and fire ML at full bs. the rage would be unbearable.
7. Don't know why. They are faster than other Tau stuff as Jump and give us something different to toy with the enemy. They need buffs, but becoming Jet Pack isn't something I'd do to them.
8. I don't think Broadies will ever be able to move & fire at full BS again.
9 & 10. Yes! Specially Devilfish.
kambien wrote:Rules wishlisting :
Pathfinders moved to the troop slot. ( allowed people to take some varied configs , railrifel/ion rifle ect ) without destroying markerlight support
Drones not counting toward casualty moral roles ( at the very least shield drones ) 1/2 the units that can take them make it easier for the unit to run off the board , that's backwards
Devilfish - like 30 points off it . Its great its a skimmer , but i would KILL for fireports or some real weapons on it
Psycher - I'm fine with not having psychers or no defence against psychers , but not both . There are psycher races in the tau empire , bring em in.
Hammerhead - Its just underwhelming and not very threatening . I'm not saying s10 ap 1 is bad , but its a single shot , its meh on a lot of levels
Sunshark/razor shark - more meh , maybe see more use if not competing with pathfinders for FOC slot
Pathfinders have a new kit and fire warriors will get a dual-kit, so I don't expect such change.
Bonding Knife Ritual already does that, to an extend. Not seeing it happening.
30p are too many. Venoms are the cheapest DT in the game (I think). 50p for a non-open-topped skimmer with AV12 is nuts. 10 or 15 would be ok (and make SMS upgrade free)
Nicassar is reported to be very fragile, so I wouldn't expect them in any book. Human psykers, on the other hand...
Hammerheads will probably get a squadron option and a formation as well - just like Predators are interesting with Tank/Monster hunter, 3 S10 AP1 with some benefits will be quite cool
The planes will see a 'point-lift', since they probably sold badly
master of ordinance wrote:A nerf. A big one.
Fuckit, I did a doubles game with a Tau player. Every shooting phase essentially came down to me mopping up what was left of his targets. 2 Rapetides, 2 Firewarrior squads, a Pathfinder Squad, 2 Devilfish and a Hammerhead at BS5. feth it. feth it with a barge pole.
The GK opponent pretty much vanished and by turn three only had a 5 man Purifier squad and his commander left.
The DA opponent faired better, but only because his three fighters could jink like no tomorrow and his re-rolls saved him many times over. His Knights dropped in and my entire army succeeded in killing 4 of them. That is 1.3K's worth of IG firing, with 2 Battletanks, 2 Exterminators, an Eradicator, 2 Veteran squads with Heavy Bolters and a Comapny Command Squad. And we only just killed 4 of the knights. The remaining one was killed by a lazy riptide that had no other targets at the time.
That was... Just broken. That said my IG also suffer from being a bottom end codex so,,,,,,
That's not Tau fault. Gk suffers against any heavy-shooting army and IG/AM need a serious buff.
Desubot wrote:Change Marker lights to possibly salvo with range increase 2/1 or something like that (however its listed) makes pathfinders more maneuverable to avoid static play... ish. also kinda makes taking markerdrones on individual units kinda worth it.
salvo would bring (even more) rage towards us. Imagine each pathfinder firing 2 or 3 ML if they stay still?
Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:Half of these things are just stupid ideas just so you can make Tau the new Necrons, Stealth suits where 6s are always needed to hit them? They are called Stealth suits not invisible suits, hence why they have stealth, Broadsides given relentless is understandable, but defiantly not monstrous creatures
In fluff stealth suits ARE pratically invisible, approaching unsuspecting enemies and leaving as they came - without being noticed. Shrouded makes no sense at all for them. the Invisibility psychic power do (minus the snap shot nonsense - BS1 is ok, though)
"salvo would bring (even more) rage towards us. Imagine each pathfinder firing 2 or 3 ML if they stay still? "
Well you can always increase points.. Im saying Salvo would hopefully get them from playing too passivly. (or at least run away if need be) As well it bumps Markerdrones in random units a buff.
Perhaps get rid of the auto take drone controller for bs5 marker hits.
As for invisible Stealth suits?
I like it. But maybe as a formation bonus. where if they have it if they dont shoot. and lose it if they do shoot. gives em more time to position them selves.
Look I am fine with making people reduce BS to hit with Stealth suits but don't make them need snap shots, that way Templates and blasts can still fire. Make them need snap shots and well done, you just made them immune to like half of the weapons in the game, Just a point though, whoever said that Farsight is 300 years old thus should have Eternal Warrior, then why doesn't virtually every Marine Captain have Eternal Warrior, they need centuries of combat just to be a captain let alone a chapter master.
Vulkan Fran'cis wrote: Look I am fine with making people reduce BS to hit with Stealth suits but don't make them need snap shots, that way Templates and blasts can still fire. Make them need snap shots and well done, you just made them immune to like half of the weapons in the game, Just a point though, whoever said that Farsight is 300 years old thus should have Eternal Warrior, then why doesn't virtually every Marine Captain have Eternal Warrior, they need centuries of combat just to be a captain let alone a chapter master.
Drones counting toward casualties is a necessary balancing feature for what they provide to the unit. Besides, leadership has always been a traditional Tau weakness. If I had my way, drones wouldn't be able to leave the unit they joined
See i totally disagree with that . If i purchase shield drones to bolster my unit's staying power it shouldn't have the exact opposite effect. None of the tau units should be worse off for having shield drones. How much more balancing does a model that only provides defense ( assuming correct positioning ) and offers no realistic offense ( outside a single ws2 i2 cc attack ) need ? It works fine on FW teams , high count stealth/crisis teams . It does not work for low count crisis/steath/broadside/ethereal and riptide units , it actually hurts them.
Agree with the posters above about shield drones and morale. A Tau player in my group used to field a lot of shield drones, especially with his broadsides, but they always ended up breaking morale and running away. And it is harder to kill a broadside than a shield drone..
Some psyker defence would be a good choice, but GW will probably just buff the shooting even more.
I saw someone wishing for Riptide to be moved to a LoW slot, which just does not make any sense. The problems with that unit are not solved by making it a GMC with even more powerful shooting.
Markerlights need a change, on the other hand they cannot force a grounding check anymore. Switching them to -1 cover / +1 per token might be needed, but that would make pathfinders much worse choice as you would need to field a lot more of them.
Bring Tetras to the codex and make them again better markerlight support. TL BS3 providing two tokens on an easy to kill platform is not too good. Giving them a chance to pop up for shooting is what I want. The model even comes with a detachable drone.
While I am at it, FSE crisis suits are worth fielding, I have 14 of them. How about making the base codex suits worth my while also?
Jefffar wrote: Replace Supporting Fire with Darkstrider's feigned retreat rule. This would mean less boring gunlines and more mobile, in your face type tactics. More fun for those playing Tau and playing against them.
While i like that idea, you can get super cheesy with it by completely blocking off charges because of the way the assault rules are written.
I think one of the easy way to deal with it is to make markerligtes not work in overwatch. and maybe only allow 1 unit to assist with except to maybe if they have some kinda rule or wargear purchased.
My idea has that as a side effect because with the loss of Supporting Fire there are virtually no ways for a unit being charged to get a market light token they can use.
The rule doesn't have to work exactly the same (say either dropping it to a D3 move or not allowing overwatch first) , but it would make bunching up in the corner far less appealing while encouraging Tau players to get closer and try to secure objectives. I think that would make more interesting and tactical games.
Vulkan Fran'cis wrote: Look I am fine with making people reduce BS to hit with Stealth suits but don't make them need snap shots, that way Templates and blasts can still fire. Make them need snap shots and well done, you just made them immune to like half of the weapons in the game, Just a point though, whoever said that Farsight is 300 years old thus should have Eternal Warrior, then why doesn't virtually every Marine Captain have Eternal Warrior, they need centuries of combat just to be a captain let alone a chapter master.
Snap Shots are BS1, but not all BS1 attacks are Snap Shots. Forcing to hit Stealth Suits at BS1 isn't the same of forcing to hit them on Snap Shots. There's no reason to make Tempaltes/Blast not hit them.
Madoch1 wrote: On one hand i want a nerd to there shooting. nothing specific but seriously they have way too much shooting. or maybe an armor nerf.
Also some rules for gue vesa
Except that's all Tau can do. Nerf Tau shooting too much and the army doesn't work anymore.
Which of course is exactly what you and everyone else wants anyway, but you have to realize that's not reasonable nor is it realistically going to happen.
There's a difference between "nerfing Tau shooting too much" and "making Tau effectively play by the rules everyone else does".
Markerlights shouldn't apply so heavily to Overwatching/Supporting Fire.
A flat +1 to BS when Overwatching/Supporting Fire in addition to Tau units getting the ability to Overwatch(NOT Snap Shoot) at BS2(for a total of BS3) wouldn't be too excessive, IMO.
One of, in my opinion, the biggest issues that players have with Tau are Markerlights and the sheer amount of stupidity that they bring to the table for such a minimal cost investiture. If Markerlights had their range reduced to 30" or 25-28", I think a lot of the shenanigans would be toned down.
Alternatively, allowing for an I or LD test to avoid being Marked would be a fair solution as well to prevent the nonsense that I've seen with Markerlights of late.
And what do you mean an armor nerf? No one takes Tau vehicles because they're so crap as it is.
Vehicles are suffering for basically anyone that isn't playing Eldar or Necrons. Tau aren't special in that regard it's an issue with 7th and the relative ease this edition for Glancing vehicles to death.
If you're talking about saves, battlesuits are the only thing in the book with a worthwhile save and it kinda makes sense for them to have it. If you're just talking about the riptide in particular being too durable then yeah, that's a given.
4+ on Fire Warriors isn't exactly anything to sneeze at. You're the exact same save as all of the Skitarii(Rangers, Vanguard, Infiltrators, and Ruststalkers), barring the 5+/6+ FNP save(which isn't really worth mentioning since they're still T3) and the 6++ Invul that the Infiltrators/Ruststalkers have base.
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pm713 wrote: Id like markerlights to change to something like 1 markerlight reduces cover by 1.
I am hopeful for that given the Omnispex for Skitarii subtracts 1 from a Cover Save in addition to stacking with Luminagen.
Tau should play by the same rules like everyone else? So... They need to totally ignore all moral rules?
BS 2 over watch and cross - unit over watch is wrong? Nobody complains when DA gets it, and they are not scrubs in CC to begin with.
Marker lights bring nonsense to the board for cheap? Have you SEEN psykers? Heck even IG orders are miles above Marker lights in cheapness and versatility. Almost every army in the game has an equivalent,many of them superior.
Fire Warriors 4+ is that good? Compared to what? Can you seriously say they match up to SM scouts and admech rangers? They seriously don't.
Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.
Fire warriors are better than scouts because they are shootier.
My primary complaint with Tau is the immortality of the Riptide. I don't suspect that will change, though. The rest of the list is fine, including all marker light shenanigans.
BoomWolf wrote: Tau should play by the same rules like everyone else? So... They need to totally ignore all moral rules?
Not everyone ignores Morale rules. Those are army specific rules, bud.
BS 2 over watch and cross - unit over watch is wrong? Nobody complains when DA gets it, and they are not scrubs in CC to begin with.
DA gets it at BS2, period, for units in a specific formation taken as part of a larger formation.
Tau can Overwatch at +1 BSper Markerlight Counter used.
Marker lights bring nonsense to the board for cheap? Have you SEEN psykers? Heck even IG orders are miles above Marker lights in cheapness and versatility. Almost every army in the game has an equivalent,many of them superior.
Did you seriously just say that IG Orders, which require two separate Leadership tests and can only be issued within a certain range are "miles above Markerlights in cheapness and versatility"?
A unit of Pathfinders is 44 points, base. That gets you 4 Markerlight hits/turn potentially. Upgrade one to a Shas'ui, add in 2 Marker Drones and you're at 34 points.
34 points for 6 Markerlight hits at 36" range compared to IG Orders which have an 18" radius tops affecting a single unit/turn requiring two Leadership tests.
Fire Warriors 4+ is that good? Compared to what? Can you seriously say they match up to SM scouts and admech rangers? They seriously don't.
A 4+ armor save is a 4+ armor save. You understand that right?
Scouts can get beefed up Cover Saves because of Camo Cloaks, and Rangers have Move Through Cover with what are effectively Pulse Rifles with -1S/-1AP. If you want to pretend that a 6+ FNP on Rangers with T3 somehow is so much better than Fire Warriors with Shield Drones, that's your little fantasy.
But that's all it is, a fantasy.
Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.
What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.
Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.
New crysis suits with cool weapon hardpoints that Are fully moveable and poseable
A big rocket Laser bomb artillery pewpew riptide with big armour and massive firepower
New Kind of reckon suit
A New LOW Tank, antigrav, lotsa guns
New firewarriors
New drone Controlling Unit
New sniper unit
Honestly, Supporting Fire just needs to be made a basic rule for 8th(7.5) edition. Give Tau some kind of benefit to offset the loss of it.
Why don't we just delete the assault phase then? Might as well at that point.
Supporting Fire:
When an enemy unit declares a charge, all friendly models with this special rule in units within 6" of the charging unit's target can choose to fire Overwatch as if they were also targets of the charge. Remember that a unit can still only fire Overwatch once each phase.
If anything, it could actually be a BENEFIT for Assaulting armies since you would be able to "bait" an Overwatch reaction and Supporting Fire reaction on units that you might have built/are fielding explicitly as disposable chaff for that purpose.
Fire Warriors and Rangers are designed differently. Fire Warriors are designed as a synergy unit that is mediocre on its own but increases greatly in ability with support from markerlights, a cadre fireblade, or an etherial. Rangers have very little direct synergy with the rest of the codex, other than a leadership buff from being near a vehicle.
If anything, it could actually be a BENEFIT for Assaulting armies since you would be able to "bait" an Overwatch reaction and Supporting Fire reaction on units that you might have built/are fielding explicitly as disposable chaff for that purpose.
Baiting sounds like an amazing tactic and concept, but sometimes it's just not possible to have enough groups assaulting at the same time to actually bait anything. And there's only so much chaff you can put in an army before the chaff is your army.
Not saying it's impossible, as it's something I try when I play against a Tau opponent, it just isn't really optional sometimes. Assaulting a shooty army is hard enough when you've got no armour, trying to pull multiples groups assaulting at the same time when you've got tons of Dakka in your face is super tricky. It would probably kill assault for assault heavy armies, like Orks where we have no armour saves that could let us sit out a round to line up the perfect charge.
ChazSexington wrote: My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.
I want a nerf.
Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau
Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)
ChazSexington wrote: My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.
I want a nerf.
Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau
Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)
I think it's because they are often played as a gunline army, which is dull.
ChazSexington wrote: My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.
I want a nerf.
Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau
Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)
6e was hard to Tau opponents. Much of the hate came from that time
But Eldar managed to take some from us - and I hope it keeps that way.
Vector Strike wrote: 6e was hard to Tau opponents. Much of the hate came from that time
But Eldar managed to take some from us - and I hope it keeps that way.
I wouldn't count on that. When the next Tau codex is released, I am predicting a storm of gak that will make the 7th edition Eldar codex look like a civilized debate.
ChazSexington wrote: My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.
I want a nerf.
Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau
Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)
I think it's because they are often played as a gunline army, which is dull.
Vector Strike wrote: 6e was hard to Tau opponents. Much of the hate came from that time
But Eldar managed to take some from us - and I hope it keeps that way.
I wouldn't count on that. When the next Tau codex is released, I am predicting a storm of gak that will make the 7th edition Eldar codex look like a civilized debate.
I know. I told my friends I was going to start a Tau army and they were fine with it. Now they're getting annoyed at it. I'm toning down my army at every turn and no one can pull off a win against me. First I had to ditch my FSE since it was too powerful. Then they are getting mad at my Y'vahrah for being op. So now I can't bring that and only a Riptide. Next I'll have to field all Vespid and Kroot. -_-
Yet instead of them taking my advice on how to play better they instead get mad and say I'm the one who doesn't know how to play the game. Despite never having lost once to anybody. I'm not even trying.
I expect when our new dex comes out I'll have to use standard FOC to keep them satisfied.
Imagine their rage when the Vespit/Kroot are removed and put into their own codices so I have no choice but to bring better units. LOL.
Edit
Oh my army initially appears to be a "gunline" army but due to how I position it if I break a flank I can follow up with a crossfire. I wouldn't be playing this and I would be using FSE but they would rage hard.
In 15+ games I've only lost a single Riptide. My opponents are scrub tier AM, bad CSM, average ork, and slightly above average Tyranids player.
ChazSexington wrote: My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.
I want a nerf.
Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau
Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)
I think it's because they are often played as a gunline army, which is dull.
They don't have to be played that way.
Do you also hate Guard then?
'
Depends on how they're played. Guard don't have to be played as gunline either.
ChazSexington wrote: My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.
I want a nerf.
Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau
Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)
I think it's because they are often played as a gunline army, which is dull.
They don't have to be played that way.
Do you also hate Guard then?
'
Depends on how they're played. Guard don't have to be played as gunline either.
Yeah, mechguard are nice to play. It's not our fault GW doesn't give us any good assualt units or a whole host of fast vehicles. Witht he exception of Blobs, which I hate. No offense to the lovers of the blob, but i follow a different style of guard.
Vector Strike wrote: 6e was hard to Tau opponents. Much of the hate came from that time
But Eldar managed to take some from us - and I hope it keeps that way.
I wouldn't count on that. When the next Tau codex is released, I am predicting a storm of gak that will make the 7th edition Eldar codex look like a civilized debate.
I know. I told my friends I was going to start a Tau army and they were fine with it. Now they're getting annoyed at it. I'm toning down my army at every turn and no one can pull off a win against me. First I had to ditch my FSE since it was too powerful. Then they are getting mad at my Y'vahrah for being op. So now I can't bring that and only a Riptide. Next I'll have to field all Vespid and Kroot. -_-
Yet instead of them taking my advice on how to play better they instead get mad and say I'm the one who doesn't know how to play the game. Despite never having lost once to anybody. I'm not even trying.
I expect when our new dex comes out I'll have to use standard FOC to keep them satisfied.
Imagine their rage when the Vespit/Kroot are removed and put into their own codices so I have no choice but to bring better units. LOL.
Edit
Oh my army initially appears to be a "gunline" army but due to how I position it if I break a flank I can follow up with a crossfire. I wouldn't be playing this and I would be using FSE but they would rage hard.
In 15+ games I've only lost a single Riptide. My opponents are scrub tier AM, bad CSM, average ork, and slightly above average Tyranids player.
Are FSE really that good? I haven't bothered to try them because I like fire warriors acting as bubble wrap/supporting fire for broadsides ( and I enjoy my buff mander, and bonding knife, as always, seems like a waste of points)
FSE is indeed that good. The only times I've ever come "close" to losing is when I don't take them.
FSE w/ Tau Empire allied deatchment is even better.
I was originally doing that. Then they got mad. So FSE only. Then TE only. Then no Y'vahrah. Now they are mad I brought 6 missilesides to the last game.
I don't know what else I could possibly drop from my army. I'm now running Shadowsun, Pathfinders, and Sub-Commander Darkstrider (eeeew) and still pulling off non-stop wins. I'm now taking pretty much a mandatory kroot every game and taking th efull squad with snipers and krootox riders and hounds.
Still can't beat me. All I have left to go to is drone squads, sniper drone squads, and vespid spam and maybe stealth suit. If they can't pull a win off against that then I don't know.
I would have to park my vehicles backwards and shoot every other turn.
Gamgee wrote: FSE is indeed that good. The only times I've ever come close to losing is when I don't take them. I say "close" since it's closer than pure Tau Empire but not really.
FSE w/ Tau Empire allied deatchment if even better.
I was originally doing that. Then they got mad. So FSE only. Then TE only. Then no Y'vahrah. Now they are mad I brought 6 missilesides to the last game.
I don't know what else I could possibly drop from my army. I'm now running Shadowsun, Pathfinders, and Sub-Commander Darkstrider (eeeew) and still pulling off non-stop wins. I'm now taking pretty much a mandatory kroot every game and taking th efull squad with snipers and krootox riders and hounds.
Still can't beat me. All I have left to go to is drone squads, sniper drone squads, and vespid spam and maybe stealth suit. If they can't pull a win off against that then I don't know.
I would have to park my vehicles backwards and shoot every other turn.
Hm, might need to try FSE out a bit then, and it sounds like your friends need to step up their game and learn from their mistakes rather than blaming you. (but that's neither here nor there, and is getting pretty off topic now)
Gamgee wrote: Playing FSE is a lot different than normal TE. You need to use the mobility of your suits to your advantage. Attack and harass like crazy.
That's what I imagine, since it's a lot like the old Tau 'dex where you had to rely on crisis far more with their JSJ tactics.
BoomWolf wrote: Tau should play by the same rules like everyone else? So... They need to totally ignore all moral rules?
Not everyone ignores Morale rules. Those are army specific rules, bud.
50 flavors of space marines is hardly "army spesific", daemons, tyranids and orks also has their own variations of moral (some better than others), necrons with cross board Ld10 also don't quite play the same rules there.
And nearly every army got fearless HQs and units.
BS 2 over watch and cross - unit over watch is wrong? Nobody complains when DA gets it, and they are not scrubs in CC to begin with.
DA gets it at BS2, period, for units in a specific formation taken as part of a larger formation.
Tau can Overwatch at +1 BSper Markerlight Counter used.
They can get it at BS4 with the big formation. tau markerlights need to hit to begin with, meaning you need to to be within 6" of assaulted unit, and than hit them at BS1. hardly reliable.
Marker lights bring nonsense to the board for cheap? Have you SEEN psykers? Heck even IG orders are miles above Marker lights in cheapness and versatility. Almost every army in the game has an equivalent,many of them superior.
Did you seriously just say that IG Orders, which require two separate Leadership tests and can only be issued within a certain range are "miles above Markerlights in cheapness and versatility"?
ONE ld check, not two. no idea where you get the second.
A CCS costs just 60 points when looking for budget, and the PCS is mere 30 (though only available one-per-platoon).
Markers can get BS bonus, lunch a seeker (if you got one) or ignore cover, orders can be: precision shot, split fire, extra shots, move&shoot, improving run, pinning, tankhunter&monsterhunter, ignore cover, instant regroup.
If you claim that markerlights are somehow more versatile, we got an issue.
A unit of Pathfinders is 44 points, base. That gets you 4 Markerlight hits/turn potentially. Upgrade one to a Shas'ui, add in 2 Marker Drones and you're at 34 points.
34 points for 6 Markerlight hits at 36" range compared to IG Orders which have an 18" radius tops affecting a single unit/turn requiring two Leadership tests.
how is a team 44 points and an upgraded team 34 is beyond me, but a team of 4, 1 shasui and two drones is actually 78 points, for 6 marker SHOTS (not hits), of them 4 at BS3 and 2 at BS2, meaning on average you get 2.66 hits. (far from your "6 hits at 34 points" I can improve it by simply stacking 6 pathys for 66 points landing an average of 3, but still nowhere near 6 at 34.)
Markerlight range is 36" from the TARGET, while order rangeis 18" from YOUR OWN UNIT. big difference see? markers can buff far away units, but not far away targets. orders can buff far away targets, but not far away unit. two sides of same coin, none superior to the other.
And again, orders take a single LD check, not two.
Fire Warriors 4+ is that good? Compared to what? Can you seriously say they match up to SM scouts and admech rangers? They seriously don't.
A 4+ armor save is a 4+ armor save. You understand that right?
Scouts can get beefed up Cover Saves because of Camo Cloaks, and Rangers have Move Through Cover with what are effectively Pulse Rifles with -1S/-1AP. If you want to pretend that a 6+ FNP on Rangers with T3 somehow is so much better than Fire Warriors with Shield Drones, that's your little fantasy.
But that's all it is, a fantasy.
Who's talking about scout cover saves? they have same armor, do similar damage due to improved BS, have much superior statline and an array of powerful USRs, plus some weapon choices. I'd switch FW for scouts in my tau army without even blinking.
As for ranges, its -1S/-1AP with PRECISION shots, MTC, the ability to take special weapons (tau got none), superior statlines, and yes, that little 6+fnp helps. better than nothing FW has. also a non-brainer switch if it was an option, if only for arc rifles.
Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.
Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.
What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.
Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.
Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.
BoomWolf wrote: Tau should play by the same rules like everyone else? So... They need to totally ignore all moral rules?
Not everyone ignores Morale rules. Those are army specific rules, bud.
50 flavors of space marines is hardly "army specific", daemons, tyranids and orks also has their own variations of moral (some better than others), necrons with cross board Ld10 also don't quite play the same rules there.
And nearly every army got fearless HQs and units.
Not "every army got fearless HQs and units". And honestly, I think you're forgetting that you have access to Leadership boosts in the form of Ethereals.
BS 2 over watch and cross - unit over watch is wrong? Nobody complains when DA gets it, and they are not scrubs in CC to begin with.
DA gets it at BS2, period, for units in a specific formation taken as part of a larger formation.
Tau can Overwatch at +1 BSper Markerlight Counter used.
They can get it at BS4 with the big formation. tau markerlights need to hit to begin with, meaning you need to to be within 6" of assaulted unit, and than hit them at BS1. hardly reliable.
So what if they get it at BS4 "with the big formation"? The big formation requires you to take specific units and grants you a bonus. When the Tau get a new book, you're very likely to get something similar.
And let's not forget that Markerlights grant you no saves, so if they hit--they hit, with no Cover or Armor saves allowed. Don't pretend that is not a big deal.
Marker lights bring nonsense to the board for cheap? Have you SEEN psykers? Heck even IG orders are miles above Marker lights in cheapness and versatility. Almost every army in the game has an equivalent,many of them superior.
Did you seriously just say that IG Orders, which require two separate Leadership tests and can only be issued within a certain range are "miles above Markerlights in cheapness and versatility"?
ONE ld check, not two. no idea where you get the second.
Remembering something else, that's my bad. Doesn't change my point though.
A CCS costs just 60 points when looking for budget, and the PCS is mere 30 (though only available one-per-platoon).[
Markers can get BS bonus, lunch a seeker (if you got one) or ignore cover, orders can be: precision shot, split fire, extra shots, move&shoot, improving run, pinning, tankhunter&monsterhunter, ignore cover, instant regroup.
If you claim that markerlights are somehow more versatile, we got an issue.
Markerlights grant a Ballistic Skill bonus per Markerlight Counter expended, grants Ignore Cover for a single Markerlight Counter, and fires a Seeker Missile per Markerlight Counter used.
Those orders you mentioned?
A Platoon Command Squad can issue 6 out of the 9 Orders. All Officers can only issue a single Order per turn, unless they have a rule allowing them to issue more than one Order...which requires a Warlord trait(#6, "Master of Command").
So a Platoon Command Squad can issue an Order which forces you to make shooting attacks with Precision Shots(oh boy! 6s mean you get to choose who gets hit, amazing with Lasguns!), Split Fire, an additional shot if you're using Hotshot Lasguns or Lasguns, shooting and then Running, shooting attacks with Pinning, and one which forces the unit to give up its Shooting phase to Run.
You require a Company Command Squad to issue the remaining 3 Orders. Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter, Ignores Cover, and one whole Order that is just for cancelling out falling back/Gone to Ground.
A unit of Pathfinders is 44 points, base. That gets you 4 Markerlight hits/turn potentially. Upgrade one to a Shas'ui, add in 2 Marker Drones and you're at 34 points.
34 points for 6 Markerlight hits at 36" range compared to IG Orders which have an 18" radius tops affecting a single unit/turn requiring two Leadership tests.
how is a team 44 points and an upgraded team 34 is beyond me, but a team of 4, 1 shasui and two drones is actually 78 points,
Is it really that hard for you to understand that I did the math for each portion separate? It costs you 34 points to upgrade a Shas'ui and add in 2 Marker Drones. The team is 44 points and a Shas'ui and 2 Marker Drones are 34 points.
The fact that you said 78 points tells me you got it but just thought you could play a "Gotcha!" card.
for 6 marker SHOTS (not hits), of them 4 at BS3 and 2 at BS2, meaning on average you get 2.66 hits. (far from your "6 hits at 34 points" I can improve it by simply stacking 6 pathys for 66 points landing an average of 3, but still nowhere near 6 at 34.)
Markerlight range is 36" from the TARGET, while order range is 18" from YOUR OWN UNIT. big difference see? markers can buff far away units, but not far away targets. orders can buff far away targets, but not far away unit. two sides of same coin, none superior to the other.
And again, orders take a single LD check, not two.
Order range is 12". I have the Guard book sitting in my lap right now.
Warlord trait #5, "Bellowing Voice" upgrades it to 18".
Also, Orders can only be issued once per turn to a unit. Once an Order is issued to a unit, they can't receive another one.
So with a Warlord trait Orders can be done at half the range of Markerlight shots. Oh man!
Fire Warriors 4+ is that good? Compared to what? Can you seriously say they match up to SM scouts and admech rangers? They seriously don't.
A 4+ armor save is a 4+ armor save. You understand that right?
Scouts can get beefed up Cover Saves because of Camo Cloaks, and Rangers have Move Through Cover with what are effectively Pulse Rifles with -1S/-1AP. If you want to pretend that a 6+ FNP on Rangers with T3 somehow is so much better than Fire Warriors with Shield Drones, that's your little fantasy.
But that's all it is, a fantasy.
Who's talking about scout cover saves? they have same armor, do similar damage due to improved BS, have much superior statline and an array of powerful USRs, plus some weapon choices. I'd switch FW for scouts in my tau army without even blinking.
As for ranges, its -1S/-1AP with PRECISION shots, MTC, the ability to take special weapons (tau got none), superior statlines, and yes, that little 6+fnp helps. better than nothing FW has. also a non-brainer switch if it was an option, if only for arc rifles.
You're aware of Ethereals, right?
Sense of Stone grants you a 12" bubble of FNP(6+) as long as the Ethereal is alive. So that's putting you right on par with the Rangers.
And you do actually know what Precision Shots does, right? If you roll a 6, you get to pick the target that you hit out of a unit. That target still gets to make "Look Out, Sir!" rolls as normal though, so it's not as amazing as you seem to think.
And while they do get access to special weapons, the points costs are waaaaaaaaaay off base to be fielding a unit of 10 with 3 Arc Rifles as what Arc Rifles are best for. Arc Rifles are best on units that you don't mind losing--11 points per Ranger does not lend itself well to "units that you don't mind losing".
Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.
And yet, you still see plenty of them. Funny how that works right?
Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.
What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.
Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.
Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.
What "assault units"? Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?
Sure, if you want the T3 4+/6++ units that can't really make it to combat--be my guest.
As for "the (FREE) Doctrina Imperatives"--each Doctrina Imperative can be used once per game, unless you take a formation that weighs in at around 1400 points.
And if you want overpriced special weapons barring one for a suicide squad, be my guest! Have fun with 30 points per Assault 3 Plasma Gun.
Having ATSKNF doesn't help marine squads that are wiped out wholesale. Which is what usually happens. Morale is pretty minor in the face of 7th ed firepower, which usually leaves nothing standing.
SGTPozy wrote: "Future reference? Don't do this "responses in red" garbage. It's annoying, and it takes no effort to break quotes down properly and reply."
Didn't you just do the exact same thing though (except you didn't change the colour)?
Negative. I properly quoted the posts and replied to each point individually.
The "responses in red" thing is just lazy. A person literally quotes another person's post wholesale and just types their stuff into that with a different color.
SGTPozy wrote: "Future reference? Don't do this "responses in red" garbage. It's annoying, and it takes no effort to break quotes down properly and reply."
Didn't you just do the exact same thing though (except you didn't change the colour)?
Negative. I properly quoted the posts and replied to each point individually.
The "responses in red" thing is just lazy. A person literally quotes another person's post wholesale and just types their stuff into that with a different color.
It might just be a preference thing as well, but I find the "RIR" thing to be a tad rude as well. You can't be bothered to properly utilize quote tags but you can be bothered to use color tags?
Markerlights grant a Ballistic Skill bonus per Markerlight Counter expended, grants Ignore Cover for a single Markerlight Counter, and fires a Seeker Missile per Markerlight Counter used.
Mostly right, cover is 2 counters however.
A unit of Pathfinders is 44 points, base. That gets you 4 Markerlight hits/turn potentially. Upgrade one to a Shas'ui, add in 2 Marker Drones and you're at 34 points.
34 points for 6 Markerlight hits at 36" range compared to IG Orders which have an 18" radius tops affecting a single unit/turn requiring two Leadership tests.
On average, only 2 of the 4 pathfinders will hit, and the drones will get one hit per 3. On average. Pathfinders also get wrecked by just about everything firing at them as they don't even have stealth, meaning most of the time, they're gonna either have a 5+ save from cover, or they've gone to ground to try to live another turn, meaning they're firing snap shots.
Order range is 12". I have the Guard book sitting in my lap right now.
Warlord trait #5, "Bellowing Voice" upgrades it to 18".
Also, Orders can only be issued once per turn to a unit. Once an Order is issued to a unit, they can't receive another one.
So with a Warlord trait Orders can be done at half the range of Markerlight shots. Oh man!
They also give a lot more buffs, from FRFSRF to ignore cover, can do it on the move, and shoot still
You're aware of Ethereals, right?
Sense of Stone grants you a 12" bubble of FNP(6+) as long as the Ethereal is alive. So that's putting you right on par with the Rangers.
And you do actually know what Precision Shots does, right? If you roll a 6, you get to pick the target that you hit out of a unit. That target still gets to make "Look Out, Sir!" rolls as normal though, so it's not as amazing as you seem to think.
However storm of fire is vastly superior, and the ethereal requires more of an investment than a simple squad of rangers, who are also BS4 before any buffs. And don't they only get LoS IF they're a character. If they're just a grunt with a heavy weapon... well, they're gak outta luck
And while they do get access to special weapons, the points costs are waaaaaaaaaay off base to be fielding a unit of 10 with 3 Arc Rifles as what Arc Rifles are best for. Arc Rifles are best on units that you don't mind losing--11 points per Ranger does not lend itself well to "units that you don't mind losing".
Which is why you obviously put it in vanguard units, they're what, 9pts each? on par with fire warriors. Now, if rangers and FWs shot at each other, obviously rangers would win hands down.
Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.
And yet, you still see plenty of them. Funny how that works right?
On suit squads that take an LD test when they lose ONE model, no reason to not give them one or two drones to try and prevent that. Even then, they're still pretty bad, and only get taken because SGs are stupidly expensive.
Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.
What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.
Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.
Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.
What "assault units"? Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?
Sure, if you want the T3 4+/6++ units that can't really make it to combat--be my guest.
With dunestrider, scout, and crusader in the skitarii maniple irrc right (and those same ones have 2W)? And don't forget the dragoon, that thing is pretty damn good in CQC
As for "the (FREE) Doctrina Imperatives"--each Doctrina Imperative can be used once per game, unless you take a formation that weighs in at around 1400 points.
And if you want overpriced special weapons barring one for a suicide squad, be my guest! Have fun with 30 points per Assault 3 Plasma Gun.
said formation also grants FREE upgrades to every unit. And honestly, the arc rifle is better since plas/grav can be done by the mechanicus better if you're going that route. Or Dunecrawlers if you're not running mechanicus. Or any of the IoM BBs, i.e skyhammer for a massive alpha strike so your other stuff can close in.
Anyway. After looking into the issues with the current codex, I want:
•A decent Battlesuit detachment.
•To keep my relics.
•New Crisis Suit models.
•Buffs to the codex fliers.
•Nerfs to Markerlights (so I can get a game without feeling guilty)
•If they are not put in a seperate dex, buffs to Xenos auxilaries.
Given what they just vomited forth for the DA, which does anyone think that marker lights are the problem? All the sources of marker lights die to reasonable firepower.
The most unreasonable things in the codex are the Riptide w/IA (unreasonable is putting it mildly) and the missileside. But even the missilesides die if you shoot them with lascannons or plasma. Only the Riptide requires grav.
Tau need their crap units buffed up to usefulness like everyone else and the IA neutered. Give them some other anti-heavy infantry tech, but please make the IA not a thing anymore. I've seen it enough.
On average, only 2 of the 4 pathfinders will hit, and the drones will get one hit per 3. On average. Pathfinders also get wrecked by just about everything firing at them as they don't even have stealth, meaning most of the time, they're gonna either have a 5+ save from cover, or they've gone to ground to try to live another turn, meaning they're firing snap shots.
Or they're going to have a 4+ save from cover in ruins, etc.
Order range is 12". I have the Guard book sitting in my lap right now.
Warlord trait #5, "Bellowing Voice" upgrades it to 18".
Also, Orders can only be issued once per turn to a unit. Once an Order is issued to a unit, they can't receive another one.
So with a Warlord trait Orders can be done at half the range of Markerlight shots. Oh man!
They also give a lot more buffs, from FRFSRF to ignore cover, can do it on the move, and shoot still
And a Guard player can also be locked out, entirely, from Orders if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 6's.
Or the Guard player can be able to issue Orders automatically with no LD tests if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 1's.
Let's not pretend that dice rolls aren't a part of the game, shall we?
You're aware of Ethereals, right?
Sense of Stone grants you a 12" bubble of FNP(6+) as long as the Ethereal is alive. So that's putting you right on par with the Rangers.
And you do actually know what Precision Shots does, right? If you roll a 6, you get to pick the target that you hit out of a unit. That target still gets to make "Look Out, Sir!" rolls as normal though, so it's not as amazing as you seem to think.
However storm of fire is vastly superior, and the ethereal requires more of an investment than a simple squad of rangers, who are also BS4 before any buffs. And don't they only get LoS IF they're a character. If they're just a grunt with a heavy weapon... well, they're gak outta luck
If they're a character they get a 2+, if they're a non-character model such as a Shas'ui they still have whatever a normal
And while they do get access to special weapons, the points costs are waaaaaaaaaay off base to be fielding a unit of 10 with 3 Arc Rifles as what Arc Rifles are best for. Arc Rifles are best on units that you don't mind losing--11 points per Ranger does not lend itself well to "units that you don't mind losing".
Which is why you obviously put it in vanguard units, they're what, 9pts each? on par with fire warriors. Now, if rangers and FWs shot at each other, obviously rangers would win hands down.
Sure, Vanguard are 9 points each. But they're also still moving 6" each turn and can opt to Run in their Shooting phase(which isn't usually a bad idea because of the fact that their guns are 18" Assault 3).
And Rangers v. Fire Warriors wouldn't necessarily be Rangers winning "hands down". If Rangers hit(which is certainly more likely than not but it is still possible to miss) and wound, yes that means a FW needs to have a FNP or Invul or Cover save to make a save against the Rangers' shots, but the FW is wounding on 2+ versus the Rangers wounding on 3+. The Rangers gets their Armor save of 4+ and their FNP of 6+ however.
Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.
And yet, you still see plenty of them. Funny how that works right?
On suit squads that take an LD test when they lose ONE model, no reason to not give them one or two drones to try and prevent that. Even then, they're still pretty bad, and only get taken because SGs are stupidly expensive.
And that's certainly an issue, but it's not like you're being forced to take them are you?
Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.
What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.
Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.
Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.
What "assault units"? Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?
Sure, if you want the T3 4+/6++ units that can't really make it to combat--be my guest.
With dunestrider, scout, and crusader in the skitarii maniple irrc right (and those same ones have 2W)? And don't forget the dragoon, that thing is pretty damn good in CQC
Dunestrider grants you +3 inches to your Charge, Run, and Movement. Scout is a wash, because it specifically states that it doesn't allow you to Outflank anything which would not be able to thanks to a different rule such as Infiltrate or a Mission special rule.
Which means that Infiltrators can do it, but nobody else can.
Dragoons can do it in a different formation but they do NOT get Crusader if they are taken as part of that Formation and the formation requires 2x units of Dragoons and a unit of Ironstrider Ballistarii.
Yes, Infiltrators and Ruststalkers have 2W each--but again, T3 with 4+/6++ and a 5+ FNP.
For 35 points per model(Infiltrator) or 30 points per model(Ruststalker).
As for "the (FREE) Doctrina Imperatives"--each Doctrina Imperative can be used once per game, unless you take a formation that weighs in at around 1400 points.
And if you want overpriced special weapons barring one for a suicide squad, be my guest! Have fun with 30 points per Assault 3 Plasma Gun.
said formation also grants FREE upgrades to every unit. And honestly, the arc rifle is better since plas/grav can be done by the mechanicus better if you're going that route. Or Dunecrawlers if you're not running mechanicus. Or any of the IoM BBs, i.e skyhammer for a massive alpha strike so your other stuff can close in.
Absolutely and utterly incorrect.
The Mechanicus War Conclave is the White Dwarf formation that grants "free upgrades to every unit" and it specifically requires a Skitarii Battle Maniple formation(1 of each unit with the only choice being Dragoons or Ironstriders), an Oathsworn Imperial Knight(meaning no Relics on the Knight), and a Cult Mechanicus detachment consisting of 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices(minimum).
And Dunecrawlers have no access to plas/grav so not sure why you're bringing them up.
And really, Skyhammer? Do you think everyone plays with crummy scans of rules? Get that crap out of here.
Inflitrators do absolutely astonishing damage in close combat. I couldn't believe it when I first did the math.
The free upgrades thing is good, but
a) Skitarii/Ad Mech don't really have much in the way of upgrades. So it's a refractor field for all the characters + the relics + some heavy stubbers and gizmos on the Onagers + special weapons
b) With the exception of the plasma caliver without Gets Out, most of the special weapons are actually lateral moves, decreasing your ability in other areas. Arc rifles for instance are worse (except at 18-24") thatn radium carbines against infantry, which is the primary target of Vanguard, as are transuranic arquebuses (again with range factored into account) vis a vis galvanic rifles (against 4+ infantry anyway).
IG are OP? Whatever. IG have their moments, but OP? Eldar sneeze and ALL the fire warriors die. They can wholesale slaughter you outside your pulse rifle range. Priceless.
On average, only 2 of the 4 pathfinders will hit, and the drones will get one hit per 3. On average. Pathfinders also get wrecked by just about everything firing at them as they don't even have stealth, meaning most of the time, they're gonna either have a 5+ save from cover, or they've gone to ground to try to live another turn, meaning they're firing snap shots.
Or they're going to have a 4+ save from cover in ruins, etc.
Possible, point still stands that pathfinders fall apart pretty quickly
Order range is 12". I have the Guard book sitting in my lap right now.
Warlord trait #5, "Bellowing Voice" upgrades it to 18".
Also, Orders can only be issued once per turn to a unit. Once an Order is issued to a unit, they can't receive another one.
So with a Warlord trait Orders can be done at half the range of Markerlight shots. Oh man!
They also give a lot more buffs, from FRFSRF to ignore cover, can do it on the move, and shoot still
And a Guard player can also be locked out, entirely, from Orders if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 6's.
Or the Guard player can be able to issue Orders automatically with no LD tests if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 1's.
Let's not pretend that dice rolls aren't a part of the game, shall we?
And a Tau player could roll all 1-3s on their markerlights, what's your point? Double 6s or 1s have a 1/36 chance of coming up, so it'd be pretty uncommon to see that happen.
You're aware of Ethereals, right?
Sense of Stone grants you a 12" bubble of FNP(6+) as long as the Ethereal is alive. So that's putting you right on par with the Rangers.
And you do actually know what Precision Shots does, right? If you roll a 6, you get to pick the target that you hit out of a unit. That target still gets to make "Look Out, Sir!" rolls as normal though, so it's not as amazing as you seem to think.
However storm of fire is vastly superior, and the ethereal requires more of an investment than a simple squad of rangers, who are also BS4 before any buffs. And don't they only get LoS IF they're a character. If they're just a grunt with a heavy weapon... well, they're gak outta luck
If they're a character they get a 2+, if they're a non-character model such as a Shas'ui they still have whatever a normal
Shasui are characters, not ICs. characters get a 4+, ICs get a 2+ iirc.
And while they do get access to special weapons, the points costs are waaaaaaaaaay off base to be fielding a unit of 10 with 3 Arc Rifles as what Arc Rifles are best for. Arc Rifles are best on units that you don't mind losing--11 points per Ranger does not lend itself well to "units that you don't mind losing".
Which is why you obviously put it in vanguard units, they're what, 9pts each? on par with fire warriors. Now, if rangers and FWs shot at each other, obviously rangers would win hands down.
Sure, Vanguard are 9 points each. But they're also still moving 6" each turn and can opt to Run in their Shooting phase(which isn't usually a bad idea because of the fact that their guns are 18" Assault 3).
And Rangers v. Fire Warriors wouldn't necessarily be Rangers winning "hands down". If Rangers hit(which is certainly more likely than not but it is still possible to miss) and wound, yes that means a FW needs to have a FNP or Invul or Cover save to make a save against the Rangers' shots, but the FW is wounding on 2+ versus the Rangers wounding on 3+. The Rangers gets their Armor save of 4+ and their FNP of 6+ however.
the 2+ wound doesn't make as much of a difference as you think, a squad of 12 FWs firing at the rangers (outside of rapid fire), no cover will get 5 wounds, 2.1 (rounded) wounds unsaved vs the rangers dealing 4.44 if the fire warriors don't have any cover (4+ cover obviously brings it down to 2.22) So no, FWs die to rangers unless they have an aegis or something similar
Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.
And yet, you still see plenty of them. Funny how that works right?
On suit squads that take an LD test when they lose ONE model, no reason to not give them one or two drones to try and prevent that. Even then, they're still pretty bad, and only get taken because SGs are stupidly expensive.
And that's certainly an issue, but it's not like you're being forced to take them are you?
And that solves anything how?
Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.
What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.
Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.
Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.
What "assault units"? Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?
Sure, if you want the T3 4+/6++ units that can't really make it to combat--be my guest.
With dunestrider, scout, and crusader in the skitarii maniple irrc right (and those same ones have 2W)? And don't forget the dragoon, that thing is pretty damn good in CQC
Dunestrider grants you +3 inches to your Charge, Run, and Movement. Scout is a wash, because it specifically states that it doesn't allow you to Outflank anything which would not be able to thanks to a different rule such as Infiltrate or a Mission special rule.
That's not bad 9" if they don't move through difficult terrain, a minimum of a 4" run or charge. it means while they're not as durable as say, bikers, they can still move roughly as fast if they run.
Which means that Infiltrators can do it, but nobody else can.
Dragoons can do it in a different formation but they do NOT get Crusader if they are taken as part of that Formation and the formation requires 2x units of Dragoons and a unit of Ironstrider Ballistarii.
Yes, Infiltrators and Ruststalkers have 2W each--but again, T3 with 4+/6++ and a 5+ FNP.
For 35 points per model(Infiltrator) or 30 points per model(Ruststalker).
And thanks to BB they can use the BA taxi service, or any number of vehicles.8
As for "the (FREE) Doctrina Imperatives"--each Doctrina Imperative can be used once per game, unless you take a formation that weighs in at around 1400 points.
And if you want overpriced special weapons barring one for a suicide squad, be my guest! Have fun with 30 points per Assault 3 Plasma Gun.
said formation also grants FREE upgrades to every unit. And honestly, the arc rifle is better since plas/grav can be done by the mechanicus better if you're going that route. Or Dunecrawlers if you're not running mechanicus. Or any of the IoM BBs, i.e skyhammer for a massive alpha strike so your other stuff can close in.
Absolutely and utterly incorrect.
The Mechanicus War Conclave is the White Dwarf formation that grants "free upgrades to every unit" and it specifically requires a Skitarii Battle Maniple formation(1 of each unit with the only choice being Dragoons or Ironstriders), an Oathsworn Imperial Knight(meaning no Relics on the Knight), and a Cult Mechanicus detachment consisting of 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices(minimum).
My bad got them mixed up
And Dunecrawlers have no access to plas/grav so not sure why you're bringing them up.
My bad, forgot to add they bring a source of high S low AP
And really, Skyhammer? Do you think everyone plays with crummy scans of rules? Get that crap out of here.
Of course not, I was just grabbing an extreme sample. It'd be the same thing with BA taxi service, or bringing admech for longer range firepower, or SM bikers, and so on.
On average, only 2 of the 4 pathfinders will hit, and the drones will get one hit per 3. On average. Pathfinders also get wrecked by just about everything firing at them as they don't even have stealth, meaning most of the time, they're gonna either have a 5+ save from cover, or they've gone to ground to try to live another turn, meaning they're firing snap shots.
Or they're going to have a 4+ save from cover in ruins, etc.
Possible, point still stands that pathfinders fall apart pretty quickly
Yeah, and? So do any number of 5+ save units.
Order range is 12". I have the Guard book sitting in my lap right now.
Warlord trait #5, "Bellowing Voice" upgrades it to 18".
Also, Orders can only be issued once per turn to a unit. Once an Order is issued to a unit, they can't receive another one.
So with a Warlord trait Orders can be done at half the range of Markerlight shots. Oh man!
They also give a lot more buffs, from FRFSRF to ignore cover, can do it on the move, and shoot still
And a Guard player can also be locked out, entirely, from Orders if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 6's.
Or the Guard player can be able to issue Orders automatically with no LD tests if the first guy to issue an Order rolls double 1's.
Let's not pretend that dice rolls aren't a part of the game, shall we?
And a Tau player could roll all 1-3s on their markerlights, what's your point? Double 6s or 1s have a 1/36 chance of coming up, so it'd be pretty uncommon to see that happen.
It's not as uncommon as you might think, considering if a Guard player is running Infantry Platoons there are anywhere from 3(the minimum of 2 Troops[Platoons require a PCS] and 1 HQ[Company Command Squad]) Officers to 11 Officers(6 Platoon Command Squads, 2 Company Command Squads, 3 Tempestus Command Squads in Tempestus Platoons) issuing Orders per turn.
That can potentially be anywhere from 5 Orders per turn if your Warlord rolls a 6 on the Guard Warlord traits(you issue an additional Order per turn) table to 14 Orders per turn if your Warlord rolls a 6 for Warlord trait.
The likelihood of double 6s or double 1s cropping up in that is higher than you might think, and to continue to act as though being locked out of your army's special rule is somehow comparable to a single unit of Markerlights not hitting is just plain silly.
If you had to make Leadership tests to engage in Supporting Fire, and on rolls of 6s your entire army was locked out of Overwatch? That would be comparable.
You're aware of Ethereals, right?
Sense of Stone grants you a 12" bubble of FNP(6+) as long as the Ethereal is alive. So that's putting you right on par with the Rangers.
And you do actually know what Precision Shots does, right? If you roll a 6, you get to pick the target that you hit out of a unit. That target still gets to make "Look Out, Sir!" rolls as normal though, so it's not as amazing as you seem to think.
However storm of fire is vastly superior, and the ethereal requires more of an investment than a simple squad of rangers, who are also BS4 before any buffs. And don't they only get LoS IF they're a character. If they're just a grunt with a heavy weapon... well, they're gak outta luck
If they're a character they get a 2+, if they're a non-character model such as a Shas'ui they still have whatever a normal
Shasui are characters, not ICs. characters get a 4+, ICs get a 2+ iirc.
They're characters, but let's not pretend that when someone refers to a character they're referring to a Sergeant, okay?
And while they do get access to special weapons, the points costs are waaaaaaaaaay off base to be fielding a unit of 10 with 3 Arc Rifles as what Arc Rifles are best for. Arc Rifles are best on units that you don't mind losing--11 points per Ranger does not lend itself well to "units that you don't mind losing".
Which is why you obviously put it in vanguard units, they're what, 9pts each? on par with fire warriors. Now, if rangers and FWs shot at each other, obviously rangers would win hands down.
Sure, Vanguard are 9 points each. But they're also still moving 6" each turn and can opt to Run in their Shooting phase(which isn't usually a bad idea because of the fact that their guns are 18" Assault 3).
And Rangers v. Fire Warriors wouldn't necessarily be Rangers winning "hands down". If Rangers hit(which is certainly more likely than not but it is still possible to miss) and wound, yes that means a FW needs to have a FNP or Invul or Cover save to make a save against the Rangers' shots, but the FW is wounding on 2+ versus the Rangers wounding on 3+. The Rangers gets their Armor save of 4+ and their FNP of 6+ however.
the 2+ wound doesn't make as much of a difference as you think, a squad of 12 FWs firing at the rangers (outside of rapid fire), no cover will get 5 wounds, 2.1 (rounded) wounds unsaved vs the rangers dealing 4.44 if the fire warriors don't have any cover (4+ cover obviously brings it down to 2.22) So no, FWs die to rangers unless they have an aegis or something similar
The 2+ Wound makes a huge difference in terms of threat allocation.
Drones on the other hand, is an additional wound at 14 points, that does not even carry a gun. no serious tau player would even CONSIDER a shield drone on infantry units. heck, even on high-quality units like suits its dubious at best. shield drones are HORRIBLE, no reason to ever field one.
And yet, you still see plenty of them. Funny how that works right?
On suit squads that take an LD test when they lose ONE model, no reason to not give them one or two drones to try and prevent that. Even then, they're still pretty bad, and only get taken because SGs are stupidly expensive.
And that's certainly an issue, but it's not like you're being forced to take them are you?
And that solves anything how?
So don't take them and instead take Gun Drones or Marker Drones?
Tau has some things that should be fixed. I won't deny it t. But these double standards that come when people rage on the little tau gas while ignoring superior equivalent that IoM has is getting old.
What "rage"? Markerlights are way way way way too effective for the points cost you expend, period. If you want to pretend they don't--that's fine. But compare them to Skitarii where once per game I can buff my BS...which doesn't apply to Overwatch/Snap Shooting.
Compare Markerlights and their ability to strip Cover saves to the Skitarii abilities to strip cover. -1 if the target has been hit by a Luminagen weapon and -1 for an Omnispex. If you want Markerlights capped at -2 to a Cover save, I'm all for it.
Do I get all the admech things in return then? the special weapons (haywire guns anyone?), the assault units, the (FREE) doctrina imperatives, the bazilion BB allies, etc in return?
No? thought so. classic IoM players, wants tau not to be any better than any single IoM army in any single aspect of the game, but not willing to let the tau having any of the IoM (insane slew) of advantages.
What "assault units"? Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?
Sure, if you want the T3 4+/6++ units that can't really make it to combat--be my guest.
With dunestrider, scout, and crusader in the skitarii maniple irrc right (and those same ones have 2W)? And don't forget the dragoon, that thing is pretty damn good in CQC
Dunestrider grants you +3 inches to your Charge, Run, and Movement. Scout is a wash, because it specifically states that it doesn't allow you to Outflank anything which would not be able to thanks to a different rule such as Infiltrate or a Mission special rule.
That's not bad 9" if they don't move through difficult terrain, a minimum of a 4" run or charge. it means while they're not as durable as say, bikers, they can still move roughly as fast if they run.
Right, but again--T3 4+/6++. On paper they're amazing--in practical terms, they're dead before they ever get a Charge off if someone knows what they can do.
Which means that Infiltrators can do it, but nobody else can.
Dragoons can do it in a different formation but they do NOT get Crusader if they are taken as part of that Formation and the formation requires 2x units of Dragoons and a unit of Ironstrider Ballistarii.
Yes, Infiltrators and Ruststalkers have 2W each--but again, T3 with 4+/6++ and a 5+ FNP.
For 35 points per model(Infiltrator) or 30 points per model(Ruststalker).
And thanks to BB they can use the BA taxi service, or any number of vehicles.8
Not everyone plays BA taxi service, so shove that crap elsewhere.
As for "the (FREE) Doctrina Imperatives"--each Doctrina Imperative can be used once per game, unless you take a formation that weighs in at around 1400 points.
And if you want overpriced special weapons barring one for a suicide squad, be my guest! Have fun with 30 points per Assault 3 Plasma Gun.
said formation also grants FREE upgrades to every unit. And honestly, the arc rifle is better since plas/grav can be done by the mechanicus better if you're going that route. Or Dunecrawlers if you're not running mechanicus. Or any of the IoM BBs, i.e skyhammer for a massive alpha strike so your other stuff can close in.
Absolutely and utterly incorrect.
The Mechanicus War Conclave is the White Dwarf formation that grants "free upgrades to every unit" and it specifically requires a Skitarii Battle Maniple formation(1 of each unit with the only choice being Dragoons or Ironstriders), an Oathsworn Imperial Knight(meaning no Relics on the Knight), and a Cult Mechanicus detachment consisting of 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices(minimum).
My bad got them mixed up
How do you get them mixed up? You clearly have a passing knowledge of the Skitarii book, and that formation is nowhere in the book. It's a WD formation.
And Dunecrawlers have no access to plas/grav so not sure why you're bringing them up.
My bad, forgot to add they bring a source of high S low AP
Oh right, the Eradication Beamer--with its range bands that end up with a Large Blast that is S6 AP5 and still allows Cover Saves?
Or the Neutron Laser--which uses the small blast template for S10 AP1 and still allows Cover Saves?
The Heavy Phospher Blaster, which is S6 AP3 Heavy 3--still allowing Cover Saves?
And bear in mind, the only "Ignores Cover" in the book is on the Icarus Array's "Gatling Rocket Launcher" which is S6 AP4 Heavy 5 Skyfire.
And really, Skyhammer? Do you think everyone plays with crummy scans of rules? Get that crap out of here.
Of course not, I was just grabbing an extreme sample. It'd be the same thing with BA taxi service, or bringing admech for longer range firepower, or SM bikers, and so on.
Which again, isn't Skitarii. That's Allies nonsense. You don't see me discussing Farsight Enclaves in here, do you?
I think it's disingenuous to compare Doctrina Imperatives directly with orders or markerlights. At the high levels the former has heavy downsides, and it affects the whole army. You can't pick and choose who gets +3 BS -2 WS. If some of your army is in assault and you activate that. you've possibly just let them get butchered.
In addition to being usable once each, whereas orders or markerlights can be used over and over. And being much more versatile. There's no ignore cover for DIs, no run extra fast, no split fire, no increasing BS on Overwatch..
*Changes to riptide to make it balanced (ei, nerf/price increase IA) or just get rid of it
*Old marker rules, and by old marker rules I mean all of them, including the ability to decrease ld of units and force a pinning test (IIRC)
*Decrease devilfish cost. It's balanced, just too expensive.
*Re-work stealth suits. Invisability seems like a good choice, an giving them some weapon options might be nice
*BS4 bodygaurds, FFS!
*Do something with Railgun and HRR to make them worth it
*Just get rid of the codex flies, IMO. We have the barracuda, that's all we need.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alcibiades wrote: I think it's disingenuous to compare Doctrina Imperatives directly with orders or markerlights. At the high levels the former has heavy downsides, and it affects the whole army. You can't pick and choose who gets +3 BS -2 WS. If some of your army is in assault and you activate that. you've possibly just let them get butchered.
In addition to being usable once each, whereas orders or markerlights can be used over and over. And being much more versatile. There's no ignore cover for DIs, no run extra fast, no split fire, no increasing BS on Overwatch..
Markerlights can do only two of those things, and only one of them with any reliability.
I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.
So, I don't feel like going down this argument path anymore, just gonna point out a couple things:
1. Characters with heavy weapons (i.e. those that you would want to target with precision shots) CANNOT have a LoS roll UNLESS they have the character rule. Which most don't. I.e. you have a 10 man squad of guardsmen, one with a melta gun, 8 regulars, and a sarge. I fire shots that have precision shots rule, get 3 6s with it. I put 1 on the sarge, 2 on the meltagun guardsman. The sarge can take a LoS roll, but the meltagun cannot, as the meltagun guardsman doessn't have the character rule.
2. Not entirely sure what you mean "threat allocation". Because rangers will kill FWs pretty darn effectively.
3. Taking gun or marker drones over shield drones doesn't fix anything. (and SG = shield generators fyi)
4. Sure, Skitarii out in the open die pretty quickly, that's the nature of 7th, but they have access to amazing transports (i.e. drop pods), and you can say "not everyone plays it", but there are people who do, so, don't pretend it doesn't happen. Literally you don't like that I bring something up, and instead of coming up with a good counter point, you just sasy "don't use that argument! I don't like it!"
5. I have a PASSING knowledge of the skitarii book, and it's not on hand currently. I sorta know the bonuses for the maniple, but nothing about the other formations as they didn't really interest me.
6. Not sure what your point about the weapons allowing cover saves are. High S low AP is still high S low AP. Sure units will claim cover/invul saves, but you're lowering the save and what about the units who aren't in cover? Surely you don't think units are in cover 24/7. Or maybe my group plays differently in that we use a moderate amount of cover (never more than 50% never less than about 30% of the board, generally no area terrain that you get to claim a save just for touching it)
7. You have allies, and people use 'em, you can't ignore them, just like I didn't expect you to ignore FSE. One of the great things for IoM armies is being able to use other armies with no downside (minus actually having to pay for units you might not want, i.e. HQs)
Alcibiades wrote: I think it's disingenuous to compare Doctrina Imperatives directly with orders or markerlights. At the high levels the former has heavy downsides, and it affects the whole army. You can't pick and choose who gets +3 BS -2 WS. If some of your army is in assault and you activate that. you've possibly just let them get butchered.
In addition to being usable once each, whereas orders or markerlights can be used over and over. And being much more versatile. There's no ignore cover for DIs, no run extra fast, no split fire, no increasing BS on Overwatch..
Markerlights can do only two of those things, and only one of them with any reliability.
Absolutely (and fire seeker missiles). But the point is that Doctrina Imperatives a) are army-wide and have downsides at the higher levels, b) cannot be used multiple times, and c) only do one thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The point is not that they are better or worse, but that they cannot be directly compared.
ChazSexington wrote: My CSMs are about to get tabled in turn 4 fighting a Tau gun line.
I want a nerf.
Make that the erradication of the Tau from the WH40k universe and Il be a happy man, that and when I hear the wailing of the teens that play Tau
Curious, why do you hate Tau so much? Tau are about mid tier at best (i.e. eldar/crons/skyhammer/gladius/DA will put a pretty massive hurt on tau without a problem)
An army doesn't have to be top-tier to suck the fun out of the game.
redleger wrote: I would just like to have the Broadsides be able to move and not snap fire. They are currenly only infantry so every time I need to move them all my missles are snap firing. Bring back the stabilizers from last edition as an upgrade even. or based on size, make them MCs so they are relentless.
Id be fine with that - they would need point increase though.
While it would play fine it would take tons of the flavor out of the unit. I would say have them have an upgrade called "stabilizers" if taken you can make snap shots at bs 2.
Martel732 wrote: Having ATSKNF doesn't help marine squads that are wiped out wholesale. Which is what usually happens. Morale is pretty minor in the face of 7th ed firepower, which usually leaves nothing standing.
I've come to wonder if ATSKNF is simply a counterweight to their typically small unit size/model count. The army would otherwise be liable to being scared off the table after losing a very small number of guys (which I would love to see but recognize as unfun).
Backfire wrote: I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.
AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.
Backfire wrote: I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.
AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.
Both the Hammerhead and the Russ need a bump. Vehicles in general need a bump, as monstrous creatures are completely superior in every phase of the game and don't pay accordingly. I would totally give the hammerhead a "manstopper" type round that inflicts multiple wounds to MCs, as well as a Str D round for anti-vehicle work. It's got a railgun the size of a dreadnought; it should be nasty. Nastier than the weaponry on the Riptide.
I would also give Russes lumbering behemoth back and give them rear armor AV 12. Doesn't help against WK still, but it's something. Maybe it needs more, because the LR has rear armor as well and is still a useless pile of junk in general.
Backfire wrote: I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.
AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.
It's also only one shot at BS4 (before MLs), and against everything that isn't AV14 I think missilesides are better. But the Russ needs a buff too, most vehicles do with how easy it is to glance them to death.
As usual, the thread became another bashing pit instead of realistical requests from either side. Please, be more mindful in the future official rumor thread.
What I would want in the new Tau Codex:
-Commander get an access to special weapons like LBBC, HYMP, some sort of variation of O'ralai weapon, etc. Might sway some players from using the Buffmander and Mark'O
-Get another suit HQ that is more CC inclined. Maybe like the Y'Vahra play style, move fast (maybe jump pack for himself and his bodyguards and still keep the thrust move) with short ranged weapons. Also, would be nice if they could also take some CC weapons, hit and run, fleet.
-Move farsight to LOW with some buff and point increase.
-Make shas'ui upgrade cheaper or +1 BS and access to drone controller.
-Move pathfinders to troops.
-Cheaper devifish or give it fireports or better weapons or even access to markerlights
-Riptide IA point increase or a nerf
-Give us a decent flier that is now FW (barracuda)! Aren't tau suppose to have air supremacy?
-Move sniper drone to FA and take out the spotter and just make them all BS 4 or 5.
-Give broadside a T5 and a point increase and an option to be slow and purposeful. Now they can either move and shoot but lose overwatch or stay still and unload some dakka!
-Do something with the rail weapons! Maybe make then heavy 2 or rapid fire... Something
-Give stealth suits access to rail rifles and ion rifles and take out the special weapon upgrade limit (probably take out the FB access so they don't just pop tanks left and right)
-Make skyray a fast skimmer so it can still move and shoot both its markerlights after it unloads missiles. Also, an option to replace the seekers with HYMP or MP.
-Some sort of decurion-esque formation and vehicle squadrons
I basically just want it to move away from a gun line and be more mobile! Some of those I requested in some sort of combination will probably make it OP... Chances are I probably won't see most of it in the new codex.
Vector Strike wrote: As usual, the thread became another bashing pit instead of realistical requests from either side. Please, be more mindful in the future official rumor thread.
Haven't you been paying attention these last few months? The official rumor thread will be even worse! In addition, at least ten separate complaint threads will be made/converted in the 40k board section, with at least one call to ban Tau players from competitive events. Yes, I am still bitter about that.
On topic: one change I want to see is a limit of one Signature System per model, or at least a price increase to reflect their powerful nature. If other codexes only get one relic/banner per model, Tau should too.
The biggest changes to the Tau book I would make are increasing the Riptide's base cost to 200 with the IA costing 50 points, and changing markerlights to a modifier for denying cover rather than straight ignores cover. I'd also probably cap the ballistic skill boost to BS4.
Everything else would be buffs. Make vespid and the heavy/sniper drones useful, give kroot straight up stealth rather than [forests], take some points off the devilfish, and more.
Backfire wrote: I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.
AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.
LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.
Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.
Another issue are all the crazy ass MC's the game has now. It wasn't that bad when it was only units like Carnifex or Wraithlord, but imagine shooting a Wraithknight with Railgun: IF you hit, and IF you wound, and IF the target doesn't make his inv. save and IF he doesn't have FNP...you cause 1 wound and no other effects. Woo hoo.
Backfire wrote: Another issue are all the crazy ass MC's the game has now. It wasn't that bad when it was only units like Carnifex or Wraithlord, but imagine shooting a Wraithknight with Railgun: IF you hit, and IF you wound, and IF the target doesn't make his inv. save and IF he doesn't have FNP...you cause 1 wound and no other effects. Woo hoo.
I like where MC's are at except the Wraith Knight but I feel that single shot guns need to be made better and the vehicles that carry them as well. I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at.
However. If they buff a lot of other things in our codex so they are good and will last a long time like the Riptide class of suits then I would be fine with them giving it a small points increase. I don't want our codex to be good for 3 months and then suck as some new power level comes out like what happened to the DE and AM.
Martel732 wrote: ". I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at. "
Nope. Not even close. Add up how many lascannon shots it takes to bring one down. It's nuts.
Lascannons aren't anti-MC though... Anyway, you're IoM so you have grav!
That's the point. Grav is necessary because of these uber-MCs. And in 7th ed, it turns out that lascannons aren't anti-anything. They've become a bad weapon, imo.
Martel732 wrote: ". I even feel that the Riptide is good where it's at. "
Nope. Not even close. Add up how many lascannon shots it takes to bring one down. It's nuts.
Lascannons aren't anti-MC though... Anyway, you're IoM so you have grav!
That's the point. Grav is necessary because of these uber-MCs. And in 7th ed, it turns out that lascannons aren't anti-anything. They've become a bad weapon, imo.
So why are you complaining that a bad weapon can't kill something good? That's just silly.
Also, scrap grav then these "uberMCs" (AKA Dreadknight and Riptide) can be toned down.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "I'd prefer to not be forced to use grav to kill it."
Same as I'd prefer it if I didn't have to use Riptides in order to compete against Space Marines
I'd just like to point out that the 2+ armor MC came before the grav weapon. The grav weapon just so happens to royally hose over a bunch of stuff that's NOT 2+ armor MCs as well. The Riptide still makes most marine units look foolish, as well. The few exceptions are spammed for this reason against Tau.
True, the Ion Accelerator is a weapon choice for the riptide, but its only one of them, using the OTHER choice (heavy burst cannon) the riptide is not all that scary, for anyone.
Like I've said over a hundrend times from the day the tau codex came out, there is no reason to nerf the riptide, just the ion accelerator itself. and even with the IA, just removing the non-NOVA pie plate is probably enough without even a price increase.
True, the Ion Accelerator is a weapon choice for the riptide, but its only one of them, using the OTHER choice (heavy burst cannon) the riptide is not all that scary, for anyone.
Like I've said over a hundrend times from the day the tau codex came out, there is no reason to nerf the riptide, just the ion accelerator itself. and even with the IA, just removing the non-NOVA pie plate is probably enough without even a price increase.
What about the NOVA pie plate? Because that's what my FNP guys are always doubled out by. Ignoring cover, of course.
" So why isn't the Riptide fine when the Helldrake came out before it?"
The Helldrake had counters (unless you were DA), the Riptide didn't. It was risky to run Helldrakes with Vendetta spam running around. Riptides + buffmanders? All day every day.
I agree that the grav cannon is just stupid, as it basically mows down any marine squad no matter how you equip them. Collateral damage indeed. But we are stuck. And at the same time, I don't know what else really kills Riptides efficiently.
True, the Ion Accelerator is a weapon choice for the riptide, but its only one of them, using the OTHER choice (heavy burst cannon) the riptide is not all that scary, for anyone.
Like I've said over a hundrend times from the day the tau codex came out, there is no reason to nerf the riptide, just the ion accelerator itself. and even with the IA, just removing the non-NOVA pie plate is probably enough without even a price increase.
What about the NOVA pie plate? Because that's what my FNP guys are always doubled out by. Ignoring cover, of course.
The NOVA pie plate on its own is not a problem.
It has a 33% to outright fail and cause a wound to the riptide instead, then it gets hot for another 16% of fail and a 16% of another wound if it does (so its about 44.5% fail to trigger the blast to begin with and about 36% to wound yourself overall), and if you want to use it in interception, you gotta set it up in advance.
Not to mention that using it would lock out any other NOVA for the turn.
Getting hit by S8+ low AP cover ignoring shots is not unique to tau. the only problem in the IA makes it so godamn easy.
However, if it has to attempt a NOVA in order to do it, its no longer easy, and no longer reliable-solving the issue.
That's the point. Grav is necessary because of these uber-MCs. And in 7th ed, it turns out that lascannons aren't anti-anything. They've become a bad weapon, imo.
So why are you complaining that a bad weapon can't kill something good? That's just silly.
But that is precisely the point. Why should these MC's be more durable against weapons like Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Railguns and Meltaguns than tanks? I repeat again, more durable than TANKS. Not only doesn't that make one bit of sense, it also imbalances the game.
As I said, it wasn't that bad when it was just units like Carnifex or Wraithlord - you could argue that they were kinda balanced compared to equivalent vehicles. They had no inv saves, Carnifex had limited heavy weapons, Wraithlord had just 3 wounds. However, modern MC's have 2+ save AND 4 or more wounds AND inv save AND sometimes also FNP. It's pointless to argue that "all those things existed before Riptide (or Dreadknight)" since it is not a single characteristic which makes the MC's so absurd, but all those things combined.
That's the point. Grav is necessary because of these uber-MCs. And in 7th ed, it turns out that lascannons aren't anti-anything. They've become a bad weapon, imo.
So why are you complaining that a bad weapon can't kill something good? That's just silly.
But that is precisely the point. Why should these MC's be more durable against weapons like Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Railguns and Meltaguns than tanks? I repeat again, more durable than TANKS. Not only doesn't that make one bit of sense, it also imbalances the game.
As I said, it wasn't that bad when it was just units like Carnifex or Wraithlord - you could argue that they were kinda balanced compared to equivalent vehicles. They had no inv saves, Carnifex had limited heavy weapons, Wraithlord had just 3 wounds. However, modern MC's have 2+ save AND 4 or more wounds AND inv save AND sometimes also FNP. It's pointless to argue that "all those things existed before Riptide (or Dreadknight)" since it is not a single characteristic which makes the MC's so absurd, but all those things combined.
They also cost more than most tanks, and bigger than many of them. the fact ITS A TANK is not relevant, being a TANK does not automatically make you any good (see exhibit devilfish)
As for the riptide "being so absurd", went over it before. while it has the durability that most MCs will be jello of, on paper, when actually trying to NOVA all the time, its rather fragile due to self-inflicted wounds (IA counters the need to NOVA though, again the problem lies there), and the FNP is a costly upgrade (though slightly undercosted by my calculations. it should have been 40 points rather than 35.) that blocks out other upgrades.
Also, unlike other MCs, its crap in CC. its not any more of a threat to most things than a single terminator in CC. most MCs, even shooty ones, can afford to just walk out the board and say "come at me bro" if you attempt a charge. riptide, really cant. he HAS to keep his distance, or risk imminent death. the IA allows him to retain too much firepower while not risking getting close, but that's again a problem with the IA design. (and again, just removing the non-NOVA pie fixes this too)
Backfire wrote: I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.
AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.
LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.
Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.
Hahahahhahahaha NO. Do you even PLAY the game?
The Leman Russ is far slower, cant fly over things is either under gunned or over specialised and quite frankly sucks. I would gladly bring a Hammerhead any day of the week.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and it cannot splitfire.
" its rather fragile due to self-inflicted wounds "
This just does not happen as often as advertise. I've played against these things at least 30 times and rarely has this been a factor.
" its crap in CC."
Still ignores armor. Still has 2+ armor. Doesn't sound too bad to me.
Classic martel to respond to a part of a post and ignore thr parts that undermines his own post before he even wrote it.
Ordinance, the hammerhead cantbsplit fire either.
The entire argumentvuf hammerhead us better than Russ is pointless though,they are both irrelevant in any competitive setting.
The fact the Russ is mostly bsd means not the hammer is good, even if the hammer really was clearly better (and its rather situational who is better as hammer's skimmet advantages are good,but nearly never matter,and gun wise neither is very effective.)
Backfire wrote: I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.
AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.
LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.
Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.
Hahahahhahahaha NO. Do you even PLAY the game?
The Leman Russ is far slower, cant fly over things is either under gunned or over specialised and quite frankly sucks. I would gladly bring a Hammerhead any day of the week.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and it cannot splitfire.
They're both bad. Chill out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Classic martel to respond to a part of a post and ignore thr parts that undermines his own post before he even wrote it. "
You said that in real games it doesn't hurt itself and is nearly never caught,ignoring the fact I said the reason for these is the ion accelerator giving too much firepower at range without the need to ever NOVA.
An HBC riptide not only hurts itself alot wit NOVA that must go to the gun so he can't buff speed or defenses, it also comes much closer and can't quite afford.
I'm quite sure we had this discussion about five times now though. So I'm not going to put effort into this time.
Backfire wrote: I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.
AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.
LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.
Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.
Hahahahhahahaha NO. Do you even PLAY the game?
The Leman Russ is far slower, cant fly over things is either under gunned or over specialised and quite frankly sucks. I would gladly bring a Hammerhead any day of the week.
Oh, and it cannot splitfire.
Hammerhead has same practical speed - it can only shoot snap shots if it moves over 6", and 6" move is too short to get over most terrain pieces (even 12" move often is). Hammerhead also cannot splitfire. Have you actually played Hammerhead under current codex? Because it seems that your opinion is based on 4th edition Tau codex, where Hammerhead indeed was as you describe.
Btw, there is nothing to stop you from adding Hammerhead to your army. It's available as an ally to almost anyone. Weird thing: nobody ever does.
Wonder why?
BoomWolf wrote: You said that in real games it doesn't hurt itself and is nearly never caught,ignoring the fact I said the reason for these is the ion accelerator giving too much firepower at range without the need to ever NOVA.
An HBC riptide not only hurts itself alot wit NOVA that must go to the gun so he can't buff speed or defenses, it also comes much closer and can't quite afford.
I'm quite sure we had this discussion about five times now though. So I'm not going to put effort into this time.
I'm quite aware of the stupidity of the HBC. It needs to be fixed. My opponents frequently NOVA to double out units with FNP. It doesn't seem to make the Riptides significantly more fragile.
BoomWolf wrote: You said that in real games it doesn't hurt itself and is nearly never caught,ignoring the fact I said the reason for these is the ion accelerator giving too much firepower at range without the need to ever NOVA.
An HBC riptide not only hurts itself alot wit NOVA that must go to the gun so he can't buff speed or defenses, it also comes much closer and can't quite afford.
I'm quite sure we had this discussion about five times now though. So I'm not going to put effort into this time.
I'm quite aware of the stupidity of the HBC. It needs to be fixed. My opponents frequently NOVA to double out units with FNP. It doesn't seem to make the Riptides significantly more fragile.
Hmmm I do not know anything that a NOVAIA will double out that an overcharged IA does not already double out...Maybe you are only referring to an overcharged IA which has a Gets Hot.
BoomWolf wrote: You said that in real games it doesn't hurt itself and is nearly never caught,ignoring the fact I said the reason for these is the ion accelerator giving too much firepower at range without the need to ever NOVA.
An HBC riptide not only hurts itself alot wit NOVA that must go to the gun so he can't buff speed or defenses, it also comes much closer and can't quite afford.
I'm quite sure we had this discussion about five times now though. So I'm not going to put effort into this time.
I'm quite aware of the stupidity of the HBC. It needs to be fixed. My opponents frequently NOVA to double out units with FNP. It doesn't seem to make the Riptides significantly more fragile.
Hmmm I do not know anything that a NOVAIA will double out that an overcharged IA does not already double out...Maybe you are only referring to an overcharged IA which has a Gets Hot.
Probably; I trust that they are rolling the right dice. I've never read the Tau codex.
You should. Plenty of the 6th bandwagon types play by completely wrong rules. Like 80% of the tau hate I encountered came from things played not remotely like the actual rules (single marker to remove cover, markers triggering for all units, automatic NOVA, etc.)
BlaxicanX wrote: The biggest changes to the Tau book I would make are increasing the Riptide's base cost to 200 with the IA costing 50 points, and changing markerlights to a modifier for denying cover rather than straight ignores cover. I'd also probably cap the ballistic skill boost to BS4.
Everything else would be buffs. Make vespid and the heavy/sniper drones useful, give kroot straight up stealth rather than [forests], take some points off the devilfish, and more.
Why BS4? It was BS5 in the 0old codex, and complained. Otherwise I agree, but I want the decrease Ld force pinning test too.
Backfire wrote: I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.
AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.
LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.
Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.
Hahahahhahahaha NO. Do you even PLAY the game?
The Leman Russ is far slower, cant fly over things is either under gunned or over specialised and quite frankly sucks. I would gladly bring a Hammerhead any day of the week.
Oh, and it cannot splitfire.
Hammerhead has same practical speed - it can only shoot snap shots if it moves over 6", and 6" move is too short to get over most terrain pieces (even 12" move often is). Hammerhead also cannot splitfire. Have you actually played Hammerhead under current codex? Because it seems that your opinion is based on 4th edition Tau codex, where Hammerhead indeed was as you describe.
Btw, there is nothing to stop you from adding Hammerhead to your army. It's available as an ally to almost anyone. Weird thing: nobody ever does.
Wonder why?
But the Hammerhaed can move faster to get out of trouble, avoid being assaulted and it can still shoot if it does so - snap shots or not.
And I would bring them as allies..... But my wallet wont let me
My friend who has never beat me insist the Leman Rus tank is good and doesn't need a price reduction or buff. Despite only winning one game in 15 matches and all he does is spam them and their variants.
-_-
Yea kid your going to tell me what's good? I think not.
What do I want in the next codex... well there is a long list of both real stuff and sarcastic suggestions that fit the power creep stupidity of this edition... but if I had to pick a single wish then it would be to make all crisis suits BS4 base. I think it is incredibly stupid that a firewarrior with 8 years of experience piloting an advanced space capable mech suit filled to the brim with snsors and tech is only as good at shooting as a guardsman who with a few weeks of basic training out and maybe a battle or two firing a rifle with a simple iron sight.
And before some ignorant poster decides to bring up "but the tau are nearsighted?!?!" throwaway conjecture comment from a NON-rules art book, that tiny decrease in visual acuity that may or may not exist is negated by the advanced tech. Hell, it's largely negated by simply wearing glasses for christ's sake let alone advanced nightvision/radar/HUD. I realize that making them BS4 base doesn't sell models whereas making them reliant on markerlights/marker drones does but it's just flat out stupid that the race known for being specialized in shooting is worse than the majority of armies out there (both when marines are included and excluded).
warboss wrote: What do I want in the next codex... well there is a long list of both real stuff and sarcastic suggestions that fit the power creep stupidity of this edition... but if I had to pick a single wish then it would be to make all crisis suits BS4 base. I think it is incredibly stupid that a firewarrior with 8 years of experience piloting an advanced space capable mech suit filled to the brim with snsors and tech is only as good at shooting as a guardsman who with a few weeks of basic training out and maybe a battle or two firing a rifle with a simple iron sight.
And before some ignorant poster decides to bring up "but the tau are nearsighted?!?!" throwaway conjecture comment from a NON-rules art book, that tiny decrease in visual acuity that may or may not exist is negated by the advanced tech. Hell, it's largely negated by simply wearing glasses for christ's sake let alone advanced nightvision/radar/HUD. I realize that making them BS4 base doesn't sell models whereas making them reliant on markerlights/marker drones does but it's just flat out stupid that the race known for being specialized in shooting is worse than the majority of armies out there (both when marines are included and excluded).
Maybe it's harder to aim a big cannon than a little rifle?
Practically speaking, you want BS4 + markerlights? Tau are _designed around_ their BS3.
-Stealth Suits to Troop choice. They can stay the same price but make them troops.
-It pains me to say it but...marker lights at -1 cover
-no gets hot in HBC, other than that riptides stay the same
-stealth suit HQ thats not shadowsun or make stealth/shrouded a unique upgrade for commanders.
-Hammer heads become single shot D weapons. Can be taken in squadrons upto 3.
-Broadisdes become Heavy 1 TL S10 Ap1. When they changed them to S8 Knights and Wraithknights (as they are now) didnt exist, things have changed and S10 is now really needed again in tau armies.
- Kroot good at CC, more variations of krrot (or a kroot/merc codex that BB with Tau)
- Vespid...
- Paycher race added to tau (maybe in Tau mercs codex, see Kroot)
- Path finders gain stealth, can take all special weapon upgrades, markerlights as an optional upgrade made troops
- Devil Fish cheaper and FA/dedicated transport
- Tank squadrons (Skyray, HH)
- Flyers that dont suck
- Tau fortifications (feth the fluff, tau would total build a fortification if necessary
-relentless on broadsides
-Sniper drones an optional upgrade to firewarrior squads or stand alone unit
-Shield and marker drones on tanks
- New Superheavy suit thats not forgeworld with D weapons!
- more formations and a Tau decruion(s)
Other than that our codex is perfect as it is...I dont want much.
BlaxicanX wrote: The biggest changes to the Tau book I would make are increasing the Riptide's base cost to 200 with the IA costing 50 points, and changing markerlights to a modifier for denying cover rather than straight ignores cover. I'd also probably cap the ballistic skill boost to BS4.
Everything else would be buffs. Make vespid and the heavy/sniper drones useful, give kroot straight up stealth rather than [forests], take some points off the devilfish, and more.
so you want a Riptide with IA with a max BS of 4 (not including the cost of bringing the markerlights themselves) to be 40 points cheaper than a GC with 2 D weapons, ala Wraithknight...your not serious
Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?
Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?
*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....
Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.
Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?
*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....
Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.
I'm so glad someone finally understands. I don't play against Tau either. Sadly, if I do, I HAVE to bring dual Wraithknight just to compete with the cheese.
^Everything you've listed is absolutely accurate.
Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?
*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....
Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.
So Tau need a nerf because they can tailor better than your army can?
Tau were OP back in 6th edition when first published which was a nice change from 8 years of being crap... but the codexes released in 7th since have largely surpassed them. If you systematically can't beat Tau with current eldar or "I get lots of stuff for free because I bought it" space marines, necrons, and dark angels, you're the problem... not the codex.
How does everything have Skyfire and Interceptor, anyway? And if everything really does have Skyfire then they paid out the ass for that, for something that might not even be necessary in every game. Is flyer spam even still a thing?
Tailoring shouldn't even come into it since list tailoring is essentially cheating anyway. No wonder everyone has such a bad time playing 40k if they're always playing against the best possible counter to their list, I can see how that would make games pretty pointless pretty fast.
So Eldar can steamroll them with even more ease, I guess?
No, so other armies can actually have a fair game against them, or at the very least, have fun playing against them rather than the same game of trying to get into CC with only a few models left over after the 3+ turns running across the board.
So Eldar can steamroll them with even more ease, I guess?
No, so other armies can actually have a fair game against them, or at the very least, have fun playing against them rather than the same game of trying to get into CC with only a few models left over after the 3+ turns running across the board.
I can pull up a couple of predator destructors and lay waste to huge sections of their army. If there weren't lists where destructors were totally useless, I'd do this more.
So Eldar can steamroll them with even more ease, I guess?
No, so other armies can actually have a fair game against them, or at the very least, have fun playing against them rather than the same game of trying to get into CC with only a few models left over after the 3+ turns running across the board.
So Eldar can steamroll them with even more ease, I guess?
No, so other armies can actually have a fair game against them, or at the very least, have fun playing against them rather than the same game of trying to get into CC with only a few models left over after the 3+ turns running across the board.
So why do you play Eldar then?
I understand Eldar are OP too. Not to the degree of Tau though.
The main difference is:
The standard troop choice for Eldar is Guardians. Their weapons are only damn 12" range. They're pretty bad in CC with T3 5+ armour. You can get in charge range no problem.
The standard troop choice for Tau is Fire Warriors. Their weapons are 30" range. It'll take you 3 turns to get into combat, assuming you don't get destroyed before then. And you have to deal with 3+ squads all overwatching your 4 models you have left.
I keep having to describe to people just how Tau are so ridiculous, but a lot of the Dakka Dakka community (not all) support Tau for no reason.
Martel732 wrote: The standard troop choice for the Eldar is actually the Windrider with a scatterlaser.
I was trying to make an example.
Just don't play against people who take Scatterbikes.
Tau can't take anything that isn't super strong. See, I'd love to make a Tau army. It would be great, but I look though their codex and I can't make a more engaging list. A list that people would be okay with having a go at.
The biggest problem with facing Tau is there's no variation. Just sit back and shoot. Sit back and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Blah blah blah blah. Boring boring boring boring.
Nothing changes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I go to 3 different gaming stores and groups and it's all the same there. No one will play against Tau (outside of tournaments) because they're too ridiculous. It's sad that the codex is like that because we have about 4 people who play Tau and they're forced to play against each other. No one will play them. It's too boring.
Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?
*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....
Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.
So Tau need a nerf because they can tailor better than your army can?
Oh my army can tailor. Its just most of our units are virtually useless for what they cost (eg, Ogryns @ 40 PPM minimal cost for a squad of three @ 120, cost for an effectiveish squad of 6 @240).
Besides, that above example is, in my experience, not a tailored list. Its an average take all comers list. 2 Rapetides + some Infantry + Markerlights + whatever else the player wants to tack on.
Messy0 wrote:-Stealth Suits to Troop choice. They can stay the same price but make them troops.
-It pains me to say it but...marker lights at -1 cover
-no gets hot in HBC, other than that riptides stay the same
-stealth suit HQ thats not shadowsun or make stealth/shrouded a unique upgrade for commanders.
-Hammer heads become single shot D weapons. Can be taken in squadrons upto 3.
-Broadisdes become Heavy 1 TL S10 Ap1. When they changed them to S8 Knights and Wraithknights (as they are now) didnt exist, things have changed and S10 is now really needed again in tau armies.
- Kroot good at CC, more variations of krrot (or a kroot/merc codex that BB with Tau)
- Vespid...
- Paycher race added to tau (maybe in Tau mercs codex, see Kroot)
- Path finders gain stealth, can take all special weapon upgrades, markerlights as an optional upgrade made troops
- Devil Fish cheaper and FA/dedicated transport
- Tank squadrons (Skyray, HH)
- Flyers that dont suck
- Tau fortifications (feth the fluff, tau would total build a fortification if necessary
-relentless on broadsides
-Sniper drones an optional upgrade to firewarrior squads or stand alone unit
-Shield and marker drones on tanks
- New Superheavy suit thats not forgeworld with D weapons!
- more formations and a Tau decruion(s)
Other than that our codex is perfect as it is...I dont want much.
BlaxicanX wrote: The biggest changes to the Tau book I would make are increasing the Riptide's base cost to 200 with the IA costing 50 points, and changing markerlights to a modifier for denying cover rather than straight ignores cover. I'd also probably cap the ballistic skill boost to BS4.
Everything else would be buffs. Make vespid and the heavy/sniper drones useful, give kroot straight up stealth rather than [forests], take some points off the devilfish, and more.
so you want a Riptide with IA with a max BS of 4 (not including the cost of bringing the markerlights themselves) to be 40 points cheaper than a GC with 2 D weapons, ala Wraithknight...your not serious
I can agree with some of this, but I think some of these suggestions are misguided or go too far.
1. Stealth Suits don't need to be troops, they need to be cheaper and more versatile.
2. The Riptide needs a points increase, or changes to the Ion Accelerator. The HBC can lose gets hot though.
3. I like this idea. Stealth Suit commander or IC could be really interesting.
4-5. No. The Hammerhead needs submunitions stock (or better ones), not a D-weapon. The problem is the Wraithknight, not that Tau don't have the means of killing one. Also, the reason Broadsides got S8 rifles was because they got skyfire. Give them S10 and there's no reason for anyone to take flyers.
6. Tau aren't allowed to be good at CC (except for Farsight, who gets to be mediocre). More Kroot options is definitely good though.
7. Vespid need a massive points decrease and better leadership. Along with a reason to take them.
8. I can get behind this if it was limited and expensive, like a costlier Primaris Psyker.
9. Pathfinders as troops I like.
10. Also a good idea; Tau need all the mobility they can get, and the Devilfish is too costly to provide it.
11. Squadrons are always good.
12. Make the current flyers better. I don't know how, but there has to be a way.
13. Maybe put some of the FW ones in the codex?
14. Again, moving broadsides would add needed mobility.
15. I think you want sniper drones to be actually useable. They need a better BS.
16. Maybe on Devilfish, but I can't see them on tanks; why would you take the Skyray?
17. But the KX looks so cool!
18. Formations are the future. No problems there.
19. I'm up to 19 items. I don't call this a short list...
Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?
*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....
Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.
I would argue what you're describing is more a case of the IG codex being terrible than the Tau being OP. Besides, I would be careful of taking about nerfs. I'm starting to think the GW design department reads these forums and does the exact opposite of what people want.
Eldar official "basic weapon" got crappy range, but rending.
All three on soldiers with superior stat lines and special abilities.
Next flawed argument?
Does Admech get 3 shots all at S5 hitting in 2+ ignoring cover? No.
In 40k, it's all about volume of shots and range, which Tau have.
Your next flawed argument?
Neither does tau unless you sink many points into support units.
Extra shots in halt range by ethreal means a 50 point investment with a squishy HQ that grants bonus points to kill.
Extra shots by fireblade us 60 points and requiring not to move at all with the entire team, still not any more durable than three warriors.
2+ ignore cover is 4 marker hits, minimum 88 points of pathfinders to get that. These guys cannot move and must also be in range, with geq durability.
Rangers on the other hands have ap4, meaning the FW has no armir save,and precision shots pick off the supporting HQs if any exist. And still have better statlines and abilities, they also get bs5 as well when they want, and while it costs ws, tau infantry never had it to begin with.
FW are not any better than rangers point compared.sorry to disappoint you.
You know why I don't even take you people seriously?because I heard the same crap from tau haters in 5th when most tau units were utter crap.you people can't handle an army that plays different , that isn't "omg so grimdark" and that actually fights like an army and not action heroes.
But the main reason I suspect you guys are just bad in this game, us that every "day is op" claimer in my local I army swapped with, got crushed by his own collection while he was using mine.
Eldar official "basic weapon" got crappy range, but rending.
All three on soldiers with superior stat lines and special abilities.
Next flawed argument?
Does Admech get 3 shots all at S5 hitting in 2+ ignoring cover? No.
In 40k, it's all about volume of shots and range, which Tau have.
Your next flawed argument?
Neither does tau unless you sink many points into support units.
Extra shots in halt range by ethreal means a 50 point investment with a squishy HQ that grants bonus points to kill.
Extra shots by fireblade us 60 points and requiring not to move at all with the entire team, still not any more durable than three warriors.
2+ ignore cover is 4 marker hits, minimum 88 points of pathfinders to get that. These guys cannot move and must also be in range, with geq durability.
Rangers on the other hands have ap4, meaning the FW has no armir save,and precision shots pick off the supporting HQs if any exist. And still have better statlines and abilities, they also get bs5 as well when they want, and while it costs ws, tau infantry never had it to begin with.
FW are not any better than rangers point compared.sorry to disappoint you.
You know why I don't even take you people seriously?because I heard the same crap from tau haters in 5th when most tau units were utter crap.you people can't handle an army that plays different , that isn't "omg so grimdark" and that actually fights like an army and not action heroes.
You underestimate that investment. S5 is massive. If they were S3 or even S4, I wouldn't care.
I'm making a generalisation for other armies. Admech and Eldar are the only real armies that can actually catch up. I'm making this argument for the benefit of all other armies.
And you think I take you seriously? Pure straight-up Swiss cheese is sitting right in front of your eyes, yet you're blinded. Too ignorant to see the truth. I have no delusions about Eldar either, before you go ranting about that. I know current Eldar is OP and needs a nerf.
You people make the same arguments that "Tau suck in CC" or "Just take out the markerlights". Tau have a counter for everything. Hell, even vehicles can have a tough time against Fire Warriors. AV11 can get glanced to death and they can all take EMP grenades (haywire) for a measly 2 points. I saw a game where 2 Fire Warrior squads charged a Baneblade and blew it up. Just haywired it to death. 24 haywire hits from basic troops is absurd.
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
150 BS3 S3 AP- 24" range shots at 12"? And only if we manage to get FRFSRF and the psychic power off.
Thats what.... 4, maybe 5 casualties in total.
As opposed too the Tau just launching 24 BS5 S5 AP4/5 shots at 30" and 36 at 15" with ignores cover. Per squad. With three plus squads. And no need for orders, or any dice rolls to do it or any psychic powers. [sarcasm]Yeah, the Imperial Guard are soooo OP [/sarcasm]
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
150 BS3 S3 AP- 24" range shots at 12"? And only if we manage to get FRFSRF and the psychic power off.
Thats what.... 4, maybe 5 casualties in total.
As opposed too the Tau just launching 24 BS5 S5 AP4/5 shots at 30" and 36 at 15" with ignores cover. Per squad. With three plus squads. And no need for orders, or any dice rolls to do it or any psychic powers. [sarcasm]Yeah, the Imperial Guard are soooo OP [/sarcasm]
So IG fail to get anything off when Tau automatically get their markers off? Wow... Such idioticness.
Marker lights need to hit, 4 are needed to get to BS5 and ignores cover, and Fire blades aren't squad upgrades... They're HQs.
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
"Why aren't heavy bolters used?"
Oh. Hahahahaha.
Heavy bolters are expensive! They're like 15 extra. If you try and field an army of just heavy bolter marines, you're going to have a very very low body count. My point is the volume of shots at S5 is too much.
No, they're not. Obviously.
Their weapons are S3 with no AP at 24" range. And 150? That's all your army right there. Yeah, sure put them behind an Aegis line, but Tau will just ignore it completely. They just have to sit at 30".
Trying to make a comparison of IG and Tau is ludicrous.
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
"Why aren't heavy bolters used?" Oh. Hahahahaha. Heavy bolters are expensive! They're like 15 extra. If you try and field an army of just heavy bolter marines, you're going to have a very very low body count. My point is the volume of shots at S5 is too much.
No, they're not. Obviously. Their weapons are S3 with no AP at 24" range. And 150? That's all your army right there. Yeah, sure put them behind an Aegis line, but Tau will just ignore it completely. They just have to sit at 30". Trying to make a comparison of IG and Tau is ludicrous.
150 is a single GoI with a full 50man squad with FRFSRF
Iv had the pleasure of getting it off fully once. edit: ok a little less because of sergeants . was great fun
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
"Why aren't heavy bolters used?"
Oh. Hahahahaha.
Heavy bolters are expensive! They're like 15 extra. If you try and field an army of just heavy bolter marines, you're going to have a very very low body count. My point is the volume of shots at S5 is too much.
No, they're not. Obviously.
Their weapons are S3 with no AP at 24" range. And 150? That's all your army right there. Yeah, sure put them behind an Aegis line, but Tau will just ignore it completely. They just have to sit at 30".
Trying to make a comparison of IG and Tau is ludicrous.
50 man squads with 3 shots each... Yeah clearly an entire army...
You say about cover like IG doesn't have an ignores cover order...
Throw Draigo in there to GoI into 12" range then...
How's it ludicrous? Both are shooty armies (which both tend to be gunlines) yet one is BB with half of the armies...
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
"Why aren't heavy bolters used?"
Oh. Hahahahaha.
Heavy bolters are expensive! They're like 15 extra. If you try and field an army of just heavy bolter marines, you're going to have a very very low body count. My point is the volume of shots at S5 is too much.
No, they're not. Obviously.
Their weapons are S3 with no AP at 24" range. And 150? That's all your army right there. Yeah, sure put them behind an Aegis line, but Tau will just ignore it completely. They just have to sit at 30".
Trying to make a comparison of IG and Tau is ludicrous.
50 man squads with 3 shots each... Yeah clearly an entire army...
You say about cover like IG doesn't have an ignores cover order...
Throw Draigo in there to GoI into 12" range then...
How's it ludicrous? Both are shooty armies (which both tend to be gunlines) yet one is BB with half of the armies...
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
150 BS3 S3 AP- 24" range shots at 12"? And only if we manage to get FRFSRF and the psychic power off.
Thats what.... 4, maybe 5 casualties in total.
As opposed too the Tau just launching 24 BS5 S5 AP4/5 shots at 30" and 36 at 15" with ignores cover. Per squad. With three plus squads. And no need for orders, or any dice rolls to do it or any psychic powers. [sarcasm]Yeah, the Imperial Guard are soooo OP [/sarcasm]
So IG fail to get anything off when Tau automatically get their markers off? Wow... Such idioticness.
Marker lights need to hit, 4 are needed to get to BS5 and ignores cover, and Fire blades aren't squad upgrades... They're HQs.
Okay. So two fireblades then. Or even just one. Remember that I have to march towards you until I am within 12". That is 4 full turns of marching through your gunfire, three with some good running rolls. How many of my 50 men are left then? If your answer is above 20 then it is you whom is at fault, not my codex. Remember that you basic weapons are ignoring my armour and with your markerderps ignoring my cover too. With what, even just 1 Fireblade and three squads, 156 shots, 48 of which are fired from beyond my maximum range. Of which roughly 90 to 100 are wounding. And I get little to no saves against them.
Yeah, my Lasguns are so broken.
Thankyou for invalidating yourself in the eyes of many here.
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
"Why aren't heavy bolters used?"
Oh. Hahahahaha.
Heavy bolters are expensive! They're like 15 extra. If you try and field an army of just heavy bolter marines, you're going to have a very very low body count. My point is the volume of shots at S5 is too much.
No, they're not. Obviously.
Their weapons are S3 with no AP at 24" range. And 150? That's all your army right there. Yeah, sure put them behind an Aegis line, but Tau will just ignore it completely. They just have to sit at 30".
Trying to make a comparison of IG and Tau is ludicrous.
150 is a single GoI with a full 50man squad with FRFSRF
Iv had the pleasure of getting it off fully once.
edit: ok a little less because of sergeants .
was great fun
You... You are so lucky. I have never once had the chance. My opponent used to blitz the blobs early on.
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
"Why aren't heavy bolters used?"
Oh. Hahahahaha.
Heavy bolters are expensive! They're like 15 extra. If you try and field an army of just heavy bolter marines, you're going to have a very very low body count. My point is the volume of shots at S5 is too much.
No, they're not. Obviously.
Their weapons are S3 with no AP at 24" range. And 150? That's all your army right there. Yeah, sure put them behind an Aegis line, but Tau will just ignore it completely. They just have to sit at 30".
Trying to make a comparison of IG and Tau is ludicrous.
50 man squads with 3 shots each... Yeah clearly an entire army...
You say about cover like IG doesn't have an ignores cover order...
Throw Draigo in there to GoI into 12" range then...
How's it ludicrous? Both are shooty armies (which both tend to be gunlines) yet one is BB with half of the armies...
You cant FRFSRF if you ignore cover.
If you want to ignore cover then you don't do FRFSRF. I am aware of IG's rules (as I used to play them) unlike some people here when it comes to Tau (not naming any namesnames)
SGTPozy wrote: If Str5 is "massive" then why aren't heavy bolters used? Oh wait, it's because it isn't "massive".
Also , are IG broken since they can spit out 150 twin-linked (prescience) lasgun shots per squad?
150 BS3 S3 AP- 24" range shots at 12"? And only if we manage to get FRFSRF and the psychic power off.
Thats what.... 4, maybe 5 casualties in total.
As opposed too the Tau just launching 24 BS5 S5 AP4/5 shots at 30" and 36 at 15" with ignores cover. Per squad. With three plus squads. And no need for orders, or any dice rolls to do it or any psychic powers. [sarcasm]Yeah, the Imperial Guard are soooo OP [/sarcasm]
So IG fail to get anything off when Tau automatically get their markers off? Wow... Such idioticness.
Marker lights need to hit, 4 are needed to get to BS5 and ignores cover, and Fire blades aren't squad upgrades... They're HQs.
Okay. So two fireblades then. Or even just one. Remember that I have to march towards you until I am within 12". That is 4 full turns of marching through your gunfire, three with some good running rolls. How many of my 50 men are left then? If your answer is above 20 then it is you whom is at fault, not my codex. Remember that you basic weapons are ignoring my armour and with your markerderps ignoring my cover too. With what, even just 1 Fireblade and three squads, 156 shots, 48 of which are fired from beyond my maximum range. Of which roughly 90 to 100 are wounding. And I get little to no saves against them.
Yeah, my Lasguns are so broken.
Thankyou for invalidating yourself in the eyes of many here.
If you want to ignore cover then you don't do FRFSRF. I am aware of IG's rules (as I used to play them) unlike some people here when it comes to Tau (not naming any namesnames)
Well exsqueeze me as you had written them both in order so i jumped to conclusion
Farseer Uruvion wrote: I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.
Exactly. Have an exalt.
Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.
Martel732 wrote: The standard troop choice for the Eldar is actually the Windrider with a scatterlaser.
I was trying to make an example.
Just don't play against people who take Scatterbikes.
Tau can't take anything that isn't super strong. See, I'd love to make a Tau army. It would be great, but I look though their codex and I can't make a more engaging list. A list that people would be okay with having a go at.
The biggest problem with facing Tau is there's no variation. Just sit back and shoot. Sit back and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Blah blah blah blah. Boring boring boring boring.
Nothing changes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I go to 3 different gaming stores and groups and it's all the same there. No one will play against Tau (outside of tournaments) because they're too ridiculous. It's sad that the codex is like that because we have about 4 people who play Tau and they're forced to play against each other. No one will play them. It's too boring.
You see that most often because it I'd the simplest and most obvious way, not the only, or even the best. Mobile tau (which I play myself) is fun to play with and against (ignoring riptide spam, but that's another matter entirely) . And FSE meq tau is quite fun as well.
Farseer Uruvion wrote: I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.
Exactly. Have an exalt.
Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.
Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?
"The biggest problem with facing Tau is there's no variation. Just sit back and shoot. Sit back and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Gun line and shoot. Blah blah blah blah. Boring boring boring boring.
Nothing changes."
IG gunline more often than Tau do, so where's their hate posts?
One has to wonder, if Tau are so overpowered why are they not doing well in tournaments?
You see them do well here and there, but most of the time I see them in tournament lists it is just the fire base support formation, and definitely not fire warriors. I don't think even in the tau heyday in 6th any really op tau list was running fire warriors with etherials or cadre fireblades. If they where really overpowered you think you would.
they are being consistently beaten out by eldar, daemons, space marines, necrons, and tyranids. Now you can say that these armies are just even more overpowered than tau are, but having armies consistently out competing you is not a small number in a game with something like 20 armies.
I don't think tau are nearly as overpowered as you think, but they can be especially frustrating to play against. I've played against a ethereal fire warrior line a couple times. It's not a tournament winning overpowered list. It is however very good at stomping on unoptimized lists. Anybody who is used to just running a mob of boyz forward is going to have a really bad day watching the tau player count out the 6 million over watch dice.
coblen wrote: One has to wonder, if Tau are so overpowered why are they not doing well in tournaments?
You see them do well here and there, but most of the time I see them in tournament lists it is just the fire base support formation, and definitely not fire warriors. I don't think even in the tau heyday in 6th any really op tau list was running fire warriors with etherials or cadre fireblades. If they where really overpowered you think you would.
they are being consistently beaten out by eldar, daemons, space marines, necrons, and tyranids. Now you can say that these armies are just even more overpowered than tau are, but having armies consistently out competing you is not a small number in a game with something like 20 armies.
I don't think tau are nearly as overpowered as you think, but they can be especially frustrating to play against. I've played against a ethereal fire warrior line a couple times. It's not a tournament winning overpowered list. It is however very good at stomping on unoptimized lists. Anybody who is used to just running a mob of boyz forward is going to have a really bad day watching the tau player count out the 6 million over watch dice.
Tournament settings are very different, having a full flying circus of Daemons with Fatewever, etc will dominate anything.
I'm more referring to normal games.
Farseer Uruvion wrote: I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.
Exactly. Have an exalt.
Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.
Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?
Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.
The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.
Farseer Uruvion wrote: I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.
Exactly. Have an exalt.
Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.
Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?
Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.
The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.
Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?
*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....
Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.
Sounds like either you're playing MASSIVELY tailored lists, or TFG again. The Tau guy isn't the same cheating SM is it? That, and IG are pretty weak too, they need an update badly. MT = Sisters (Yeah right that'll happen) > Chaos = IG = orks = nids = DE are roughly the order updates need to happen. And honestly, compare it to just about any of the other top tier codexes. Necrons? Harder to remove, gauss kills everything (or can atleast). SM? Skyhammer, Gladius, Shield Eternal CMs, grav, centstars. Eldar? Scatbikes, WK, Dweapons, etc. DA? 2+ rerolling cover saves, in your face T2, grav again. Daemons? Massive summoning power for tons of free points. Honestly, the only reason Tau aren't up there is because a lot of the really weak armies are assaulty in a VERY shooty edition.
I'd rather see a slight update to tau (i.e. repricing of things), then a massive fething nerf to Eldar/SM and something to balance out decurion (prolly just remove the ability for wraiths to get RP rolls, and it'd be pretty balanced, maybe only get the +1 to RP if they stood still? Something like that, I dunno)
Farseer Uruvion wrote: I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.
Exactly. Have an exalt.
Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.
Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?
Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.
The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.
You can do more If you use ethereal fire bending.
No you can't. It's just an extra shot at half range.
Farseer Uruvion wrote: I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.
Exactly. Have an exalt.
Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.
Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?
Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.
The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.
You can do more If you use ethereal fire bending.
No you can't. It's just an extra shot at half range.
Well its an extra shot at 15" and can buff more than 1 unit (IIRC its been a while) and IIRC can be used on the move. I dont think it stacks between ethereal s but does stack with a fire blade. the number of shots can get pretty wonky.
Farseer Uruvion wrote: I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.
Exactly. Have an exalt.
Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.
Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?
Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.
The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.
You can do more If you use ethereal fire bending.
No you can't. It's just an extra shot at half range.
Well its an extra shot at 15" and can buff more than 1 unit (IIRC its been a while) and IIRC can be used on the move. I dont think it stacks between ethereal s but does stack with a fire blade. the number of shots can get pretty wonky.
Is the mental exercise only for full range shots?
Actually, I forgot that they were a bubble, not just a per unit thing. I'll have to do some math.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, with duel FOC four full FW squads and four ethereals you can get 288 shots at 15" for a cost of 632. Although powerful, it would have limited effectiveness as it has a 15" range, and isn't very durable. Especially if you can take out the ethereals, and they give you an extra VP when killed too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would get creamed by vehicles too.
Whether Fire Warriors can beat Rangers in a firefight is irrelevant to whether they are more powerful, except against each other. Rangers beat Fire Warriors in the open due to AP4. Against anything that is not 3+, or a light vehicle, they are more or less identical. Against MEQ they both do .111 wounds. Against T6 3+ Fire Warriors do 0.56 vs. 0.37. Against GEQ Rangers are marginally better.
coblen wrote: One has to wonder, if Tau are so overpowered why are they not doing well in tournaments?
You see them do well here and there, but most of the time I see them in tournament lists it is just the fire base support formation, and definitely not fire warriors. I don't think even in the tau heyday in 6th any really op tau list was running fire warriors with etherials or cadre fireblades. If they where really overpowered you think you would.
they are being consistently beaten out by eldar, daemons, space marines, necrons, and tyranids. Now you can say that these armies are just even more overpowered than tau are, but having armies consistently out competing you is not a small number in a game with something like 20 armies.
I don't think tau are nearly as overpowered as you think, but they can be especially frustrating to play against. I've played against a ethereal fire warrior line a couple times. It's not a tournament winning overpowered list. It is however very good at stomping on unoptimized lists. Anybody who is used to just running a mob of boyz forward is going to have a really bad day watching the tau player count out the 6 million over watch dice.
Tournament settings are very different, having a full flying circus of Daemons with Fatewever, etc will dominate anything.
I'm more referring to normal games.
They play by different rules in tournaments? Didn't know that
The problem is that FMC >>>> practically anything.
Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?
*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....
Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.
Sounds like either you're playing MASSIVELY tailored lists, or TFG again. The Tau guy isn't the same cheating SM is it? That, and IG are pretty weak too, they need an update badly. MT = Sisters (Yeah right that'll happen) > Chaos = IG = orks = nids = DE are roughly the order updates need to happen. And honestly, compare it to just about any of the other top tier codexes. Necrons? Harder to remove, gauss kills everything (or can atleast). SM? Skyhammer, Gladius, Shield Eternal CMs, grav, centstars. Eldar? Scatbikes, WK, Dweapons, etc. DA? 2+ rerolling cover saves, in your face T2, grav again. Daemons? Massive summoning power for tons of free points. Honestly, the only reason Tau aren't up there is because a lot of the really weak armies are assaulty in a VERY shooty edition.
I'd rather see a slight update to tau (i.e. repricing of things), then a massive fething nerf to Eldar/SM and something to balance out decurion (prolly just remove the ability for wraiths to get RP rolls, and it'd be pretty balanced, maybe only get the +1 to RP if they stood still? Something like that, I dunno)
Nope, this was someone else and I dont know about tailoring but the dual rapetides just would not go down. the firewarriors where capable of blitzing anything beyond their range and by the time the markerlights where rooted out of cover it was too late.
BTW from what I have seen this was his general take all comers list.
Farseer Uruvion wrote: I beg anyone to go into their gaming store and say that Guardsmen Lasguns are OP. You will get laughed at considerably.
Exactly. Have an exalt.
Oh and BTW, I wasfactoring in one Fireblade's buffs but not his shots. Or anything else in your army. The fact is that those 150 shots happen because your too stupid to stop them despite having more than ample opportunity.
Where are you getting 156 shots from? You said one Fireblade so that adds one shot per guy in the squad if it remains stationary, so where are you getting156 shots from with one Fireblade and three Fire Warrior squads?
Like all Tau haters; you're simply misinformed.
The best I can figure out is 84 shots from a single unit, by that's with duel FOC and 4 fireblades.
That is 156 shots over the course of the three to four turns that it takes me to march my infantry into position to get the 150 shot FRFSRF alpha strike. Thankfully not all in one single turn... Yet.
Maybe we can return the thread to what we would like to see in the new Tau codex instead of another thread of inexperienced players bitching about the codex? There's another thread on here for that (and FYI we're not OP).
Now back to the original purpose of the thread personally I would like to see the following:
-Broadsides TL-Heavy Rail Rifle goes up to strength 9 at the minimum, I would love for it to go back to being strength 10 but I would be happy with it being strength 9 because as of right now we could use the extra punch for long range anti tank which we already lack.
-Riptide Formation just because of the amount of Imperial Knight armies running around has reached pretty crazy proportions (according to my FLGS store owner both riptides and Imperial Knights are some of the best sellers currently) and really I just think would be cool to see two armies of monstrous walkers duking it out. Probably will get some flack for saying this but hey if Imperial Armies can have an army of giant walkers why can't we? At least our army won't be able to spam an insane amount of D weapons.
-Fire Warriors get access to special weapons, I loved the Railgun but almost never see it. If Fire Warriors cant get special weapons at least have a special weapon squad that can field them.
-Stealth Suits go down in points.
-Barracuda becomes a flyer choice in the new codex or they fix the current fighter and bomber.
The problem is that Crazy Shooty/Psychic ShootyFMC >>>> practically anything.
FTFY.
CCFMCs don't do jack normally, other than get shot down when they prepare to assault.
Also, I'd hardly call Slaanesh Whip Princes OP. 2d6 S6 AP- shots are pretty worthless unless you're targeting AV 12 or less vehicles.
Now OT:
While I can't speak about where Tau need to be buffed specifically (except that their Flyers are bad and I hear Vespids are worse) there's only 3 things I feel need a nerf (or in one case that I want to get removed/replaced)
- Riptide's IA needs to get fixed. It's way too cheap. (Not anything new, Everyone knows this and has already said this)
- Markerlights no longer ignore cover for 2 lights, instead giving a -1 debuff for 1. (Again, already suggested.)
- Supporting Fire removed. (This is just because I hate it and all it encourages, not because it's broken or anything. I'm fine with it getting replaced with something like BS2 overwatch but for the love of god please remove this castle-encouraging rule. My CC units are already mangled enough from the 2-3 shooting phases they've been through just to reach your lines, they don't need to suffer a 4th!)
My hatred of Supporting Fire is probably illogical, and I'll admit as such, but by god do I hate it... *grumble grumble*
gmaleron wrote: Maybe we can return the thread to what we would like to see in the new Tau codex instead of another thread of inexperienced players bitching about the codex? There's another thread on here for that (and FYI we're not OP).
Now back to the original purpose of the thread personally I would like to see the following:
-Broadsides TL-Heavy Rail Rifle goes up to strength 9 at the minimum, I would love for it to go back to being strength 10 but I would be happy with it being strength 9 because as of right now we could use the extra punch for long range anti tank which we already lack.
-Riptide Formation just because of the amount of Imperial Knight armies running around has reached pretty crazy proportions (according to my FLGS store owner both riptides and Imperial Knights are some of the best sellers currently) and really I just think would be cool to see two armies of monstrous walkers duking it out. Probably will get some flack for saying this but hey if Imperial Armies can have an army of giant walkers why can't we? At least our army won't be able to spam an insane amount of D weapons.
-Fire Warriors get access to special weapons, I loved the Railgun but almost never see it. If Fire Warriors cant get special weapons at least have a special weapon squad that can field them.
-Stealth Suits go down in points.
-Barracuda becomes a flyer choice in the new codex or they fix the current fighter and bomber.
What the actual- you want a BUFF?!
No
no
NO
NEVER.
There is no way in hell that the Tau need yet another round of the buff bandage. You do not need a S9 railrifle, you do not lack long range AT choices - you have Hammerheads and Rapetides enough. You do not need Special Weapon Firewarriors. Apart from being unfluffy it would also break them even more.
And ALL formations need to go. No exceptions.
And as for inexperienced: I first started properly playing in 4th edition, though I did have several small games in 3rd. I have a hell of a lot of experience with this game so dont try to act all high and mighty.
master of ordinance wrote: What the actual- you want a BUFF?!
No
no
NO
NEVER.
There is no way in hell that the Tau need yet another round of the buff bandage. You do not need a S9 railrifle, you do not lack long range AT choices - you have Hammerheads and Rapetides enough. You do not need Special Weapon Firewarriors. Apart from being unfluffy it would also break them even more.
And ALL formations need to go. No exceptions.
And as for inexperienced: I first started properly playing in 4th edition, though I did have several small games in 3rd. I have a hell of a lot of experience with this game so dont try to act all high and mighty.
First and foremost stop being so sensitive, inexperienced comment is directed at those who are throwing comments just because they hate Tau and don't provide any facts to back up their statements which, the way you are coming off you are fitting the description. Its not me acting "High and Mighty" as you so claim, its the fact that all that is being stated is plain anger with no facts to back it up. Also:
-Hammerheads are not that great at taking out Heavy Armor without Markerlight Support and even then statistics show that it is not an automatic thing, stop exaggerating the problem. Courtesy of Matt_Kingsley (A Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds)
-Riptides are not as scary as you make them out to be in regards to offensive output, they are durable and I do think the Ion Accelerator needs to go up in points but other then that its perfectly fine the way it is. You complain about the Riptide yet Imperial Armies get Grav spam galore and D weapon heavy Imperial Knights...hmmm.
-How is Fire Warriors having a few Rail Guns unfluffy? The fact of the matter is in a game where fluff is constantly changed and updated it is irrelevant and even then whats stopping them from taking them in the fluff, do you have an example?
-And guess what regardless of your personal opinions Formations are not going anywhere so you might as well start looking at ways with dealing with them instead of demanding for a change that will never happen.
-Hammerheads are not that great at taking out Heavy Armor without Markerlight Support and even then statistics show that it is not an automatic thing, stop exaggerating the problem. Courtesy of Matt_Kingsley (A Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds)
While I wish I had posted those statistics, that was actually IXLoiero95XI.
I understand the confusion though, since in the other thread it switched from a short sub-discussion between you and I before switching straight away into a conversation between you, IXLoiero95XI and MoO.
But yeah, Hammerheads are not super-mega-crazy-awesome AT.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: My hatred of Supporting Fire is probably illogical, and I'll admit as such, but by god do I hate it... *grumble grumble*
Not at all, you're absolutely right that it's bullgak and about the reasons why. It encourages castling up in the corner which is not only boring to play with but really frustrating to play against. It needs to go.
Yeah, well seeing as how literally every codex release this year has had formations printed in them, I don't see that happening. Nor do I see them reprinting Eldar, Marines, etc. again just to get rid of them for you.
master of ordinance wrote: What the actual- you want a BUFF?!
No
no
NO
NEVER.
There is no way in hell that the Tau need yet another round of the buff bandage. You do not need a S9 railrifle, you do not lack long range AT choices - you have Hammerheads and Rapetides enough. You do not need Special Weapon Firewarriors. Apart from being unfluffy it would also break them even more.
And ALL formations need to go. No exceptions.
And as for inexperienced: I first started properly playing in 4th edition, though I did have several small games in 3rd. I have a hell of a lot of experience with this game so dont try to act all high and mighty.
First and foremost stop being so sensitive, inexperienced comment is directed at those who are throwing comments just because they hate Tau and don't provide any facts to back up their statements which, the way you are coming off you are fitting the description. Its not me acting "High and Mighty" as you so claim, its the fact that all that is being stated is plain anger with no facts to back it up. Also:
-Hammerheads are not that great at taking out Heavy Armor without Markerlight Support and even then statistics show that it is not an automatic thing, stop exaggerating the problem. Courtesy of Matt_Kingsley (A Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds)
-Riptides are not as scary as you make them out to be in regards to offensive output, they are durable and I do think the Ion Accelerator needs to go up in points but other then that its perfectly fine the way it is. You complain about the Riptide yet Imperial Armies get Grav spam galore and D weapon heavy Imperial Knights...hmmm.
-How is Fire Warriors having a few Rail Guns unfluffy? The fact of the matter is in a game where fluff is constantly changed and updated it is irrelevant and even then whats stopping them from taking them in the fluff, do you have an example?
-And guess what regardless of your personal opinions Formations are not going anywhere so you might as well start looking at ways with dealing with them instead of demanding for a change that will never happen.
From the perspective of an IG player riptides are unkillable. We dont get the D, we dont get the high strength amassed fire. We get.... Nothing.
Hammerheads are still better than Leman Russ against tanks, even the Vanquisher is under performing in its role.
Good call, TBF the railrifles thing would not be that major. Im just thinking of pulse cannons and other nasties though.
Formations are broken as hell. You can tell me to find a way to deal with them but when my opponent is bringing 500+ points worth of free stuff because his formation gives him free transports or free gear or he is negating my gun line on turn one and I have nothing to counter it.... Its just not right.
-Hammerheads are not that great at taking out Heavy Armor without Markerlight Support and even then statistics show that it is not an automatic thing, stop exaggerating the problem. Courtesy of Matt_Kingsley (A Hammerhead with a Railgun has a 7.4% (9.2% at BS5) chance to actually get a destroyed result on your AV14 Leman Russ tanks and only a 14.8% (18.5% at BS5) chance to get the same on AV12 of a Chimera. Not exactly dependable odds)
Once again, look at this from the perspective of an IG player. Compared to the Vanquisher the Hammerhead is king.
While I wish I had posted those statistics, that was actually IXLoiero95XI.
I understand the confusion though, since in the other thread it switched from a short sub-discussion between you and I before switching straight away into a conversation between you, IXLoiero95XI and MoO.
But yeah, Hammerheads are not super-mega-crazy-awesome AT.
Sidstyler wrote:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: My hatred of Supporting Fire is probably illogical, and I'll admit as such, but by god do I hate it... *grumble grumble*
Not at all, you're absolutely right that it's bullgak and about the reasons why. It encourages castling up in the corner which is not only boring to play with but really frustrating to play against. It needs to go.
Yeah, well seeing as how literally every codex release this year has had formations printed in them, I don't see that happening. Nor do I see them reprinting Eldar, Marines, etc. again just to get rid of them for you.
Well, I hope that we in the IG actually get some formations soon then because we might as well not be here at this rate.
You will, when your new Codex is released.
How long will that take? No one knows.
And if anyone may as well not be here it's CSMs, whose only formations all involve god-awful Helbrutes (as in, 2 of them are just made of Helbrutes, and one is a Helbrute and a cultist squad) or Chosen & Cypher (meh) and only manage to hobble about because of a crutch made of Chaos Daemons and a crutch made of Forgeworld releases.
The above may be a slight exaggeration but seriously, formations aren't the be-all, end-all. Only the latest ones have been, or are you trying to tell me that the Ork Warband formation or Helfist Murderpack are as good as the Canoptek Harvest?
While we're at it, hopefully some non-Cadian plastic infantry, too. Other than that I agree with you on formations (or at least in regards to the way GW has implemented them), but I don't see GW doing away with them anytime soon.
I wish people would stop defending the riptide. Regardless of how anyone feels about it, it's still underpriced for everything it can do. It has better firepower than an MBT and is great at killing both infantry and vehicles, it's more durable, it's faster, and all for a competitive price. It needs a price increase and/or some other kind of limiting factor at the very least. It's one of the few things in the book that is blatantly over-the-top and claiming it's anything but is just going to keep causing arguments.
I'm just not seeing it in regards to the hammerhead, though, I still think they're very comparable to vanquishers. They both have pros and cons. They're both under-performing. They both need to be fixed.
Sidstyler wrote: I wish people would stop defending the riptide. Regardless of how anyone feels about it, it's still underpriced for everything it can do. It has better firepower than an MBT and is great at killing both infantry and vehicles, it's more durable, it's faster, and all for a competitive price. It needs a price increase and/or some other kind of limiting factor at the very least. It's one of the few things in the book that is blatantly over-the-top and claiming it's anything but is just going to keep causing arguments.
The only thing that is undercosted on the Riptide is the price of the Ion Accelerator, I agree that thing should be about a 15pt. upgrade at least. However in regards to everything else the Tau Riptide can do I feel it is fairly priced, especially when compared to other units such as the Wraithknight and Dreadknight. The Dreadknight has the same exact durability in regards to armor and invulnerable save (only difference being it has 1 less wound and an absolute beast in CC where the Riptide is only good at shooting) as the Riptide for a very cheap points cost and has its own boat of shenanigans to go along with it much like the Riptide does. The fact that a Riptide can hurt itself 1/3 of the time every time it uses its Nova Charge on top of its dependence on other units (Marker Lights) is what makes it fairly costed outside the Ion Accelerator. As stated before the Riptide is a good unit, however now especially with amount of Grav weaponry at the IoM's disposal and Ally Shenanigans with Drop Pods, ect. it is definitely not nearly as strong as it used to be.
Kanluwen wrote: The Wraithknight is stupidly underpriced, so that's a terrible comparison.
It is undercosted however it along with the Dreadknight are the closest things to the Riptide in the game so it is not a terrible comparison, more of "working with what I got" kind of comparison.
Kanluwen wrote: The Wraithknight is stupidly underpriced, so that's a terrible comparison.
It is undercosted however it along with the Dreadknight are the closest things to the Riptide in the game so it is not a terrible comparison.
So the Riptide and Dreadknights are Gargantuan Creatures?
Price it along the Wraithlord's lines. That thing is properly priced and as such sees no table time compared to the stupidly underpriced Wraithknight.
To be honest I don't know much about the Wraithlord at all since I haven't seen one played in quite some time lol. However it is why I elaborated on the Dreadknight more was that its stats are similar in regards to armor value, save and wound count. Shenanigans aside the Riptide is 50pts. more expensive base with the only difference being 1 wound.
Those "shenanigans" you're wanting set aside, they're big ones. A Nova Reactor goes off on 3+, and it's a no-brainer to pay the 35 points for the Stimulant Injector Support System for that FNP.
I get that you might feel that "X has this and it's broken too, so why can't I have it?". Just because someone else has something broken, doesn't mean you should.
Perhaps one of the weakest codexes is screaming for us to be nerfed? You may as well be screaming for every army better than your to be nerfed (almost all of them). It's not like the Tau are the most op faction around if you look at tournaments results it's been a long time since regular TE has even been a thing.
Right. i'll wait until you get a codex on the level like everyone else before I start taking your arguments with more consideration in mind. Not to mention if they nerf us to your level and then buff the IG to the level of the average new codex now that's effectively double nerf.
It's a very dumb thing many game and video game companies fall for. They buff one faction and then nerf another faction that was too strong at the exact same time and it usually leads to the nerf faction having double the nerfs.
I would have thought that would be common sense or basic logic but I guess not.
The Dreadknight is actually a bit overcosted. They are much, much, MUCH easier to take down than Riptide because of operation range issues. No FNP option, crap shooting. CC ability? In a 7th ed? Please.
If your're worried about non-SKyhammer drop grav, use bubble wrap. The thing is still stupid hard to kill.
Gamgee wrote: Perhaps one of the weakest codexes is screaming for us to be nerfed? You may as well be screaming for every army better than your to be nerfed (almost all of them). It's not like the Tau are the most op faction around if you look at tournaments results it's been a long time since regular TE has even been a thing.
And yet, FSE is doing fairly well right?
What differences are there between FSE and TE?
The main difference is that Crisis Suits are Troops choices and require a mandatory option of 1 XV-8 Crisis Team numbering 3 models(not counting Drones) instead of XV-8 Crisis Teams as Elites, meaning more room for Riptides.
Add in the Signature Systems for FSE and suddenly some of the larger weaknesses of the army are mitigated... not to mention Farsight's Commander Team allowing you to double-dip on your Signature Systems, taking both from FSE and TE.
Right. i'll wait until you get a codex on the level like everyone else before I start taking your arguments with more consideration in mind. Not to mention if they nerf us to your level and then buff the IG to the level of the average new codex now that's effectively double nerf.
Do you really think that you're going to get "effectively a double nerf"?
It's a very dumb thing many game and video game companies fall for. They buff one faction and then nerf another faction that was too strong at the exact same time and it usually leads to the nerf faction having double the nerfs.
That's patently untrue and quite frankly you can't compare video games to tabletop. MMORPGs(the only real place where "factions" come into play) are living games and tend to get constant tweaks. When you have instances like "buff/nerf one faction"(not really the case even in MMOs, the tweaks usually are to specific races within the faction).
An army book isn't like that. They have a set lifespan.
I would have thought that would be common sense or basic logic but I guess not.
I would suggest that if you think these arguments are contrary to "common sense or basic logic", that you have a care as to how you state this position.
Farseer Uruvion wrote: I will sound ignorant for this, but what exactly is an exalt? I've only joined this site a few days ago.
A like essentially. Its an up vote to you.
Oh. Well. Thank you, in that case.
What's the point of an exalt anyway? Apart from making the thread more visible in the "most exalted thread" ranking.
Can you see how many exalts/followers your thread/post has?
But on topic: I personally believe that the Riptide needs to be either more expensive, or a bit less tough (say, lose FnP or have a worse save)
A buff to the Tau tanks (apart from the Skyray) would be welcome.
Nova Reactor becoming a bit less reliable for getting exactly what you want would be a good way to nerf the Riptide without doing too much...maybe make it so that it operates similar to Psykers, giving a certain number of Nova Reactor Charges a turn and then having to "harness" them for certain numbers on the abilities?
Tanks, in general, need buffs. Vehicles are fairly weak this edition unless they're Skimmers/Flyers.
The main problem with Tau for both players and opponents is that they have a very limited army list with basically only one good option in each slot, which totally hampers variety of army and play style. And if you're opponent isn't tailored or prepared for that play style, they have problems.
So let's try and fix that by allowing more variety:
First off, I like the idea of moving Pathfinders to troops; at the moment you have to use basically all three fast attack slots for them, because you need multiple small squads to get marker lights, which is a core element of the army. This allows some of the other, reasonable units in fast attack to become viable (e.g. Pirahnas). The other option would be multiple squads in a single slot, but I'm not sure that fits with the Tau aesthetic. Pathfinders as troops would also solve some of the issue people have with supporting fire, as there would be a limit to the number of Firewarriors on the board.
Second we need to reduce the reliance on Crisis suits / Riptide for anti-armour; that means buffing Hammerheads and/or Railsides. S9 works for the Railsides, I'm not sure on the Hammerhead, Preferred Enemy maybe? Plus ordinance for the railgun? Losing the stim injector for the Riptide is probably a good idea too.
I'd love to suggest more weapons options for Stealth Suits, but unfortunately not going to happen under the current GW "we only provide rules for models we make" edict. Points drop is about the best we can expect there, although I do wonder if moving them to Fast Attack would make them a more desirable choice?
Likewise moving sniper drones to elites, if we've reduced the reliance on the other options there.
Fundamentally, yes Tau have a few good units, but they're all we get to use due to slot congestion and sub-optimal alternatives. Hence a very monotonous experience for both ourselves and our opponents.
gmaleron wrote: Maybe we can return the thread to what we would like to see in the new Tau codex instead of another thread of inexperienced players bitching about the codex? There's another thread on here for that (and FYI we're not OP).
Now back to the original purpose of the thread personally I would like to see the following:
-Broadsides TL-Heavy Rail Rifle goes up to strength 9 at the minimum, I would love for it to go back to being strength 10 but I would be happy with it being strength 9 because as of right now we could use the extra punch for long range anti tank which we already lack.
-Riptide Formation just because of the amount of Imperial Knight armies running around has reached pretty crazy proportions (according to my FLGS store owner both riptides and Imperial Knights are some of the best sellers currently) and really I just think would be cool to see two armies of monstrous walkers duking it out. Probably will get some flack for saying this but hey if Imperial Armies can have an army of giant walkers why can't we? At least our army won't be able to spam an insane amount of D weapons.
-Fire Warriors get access to special weapons, I loved the Railgun but almost never see it. If Fire Warriors cant get special weapons at least have a special weapon squad that can field them.
-Stealth Suits go down in points.
-Barracuda becomes a flyer choice in the new codex or they fix the current fighter and bomber.
1. The reason the Broadside railguns were made S8 is because they can shoot at flyers. Any higher and there wouldn't be a reason to take flyers. Instead, I would support giving Tau railguns lance.
2. I can get behind this, if the Riptide and Ion Accelerator receive a needed points increase. I do agree that this would be very cool.
3. That would involve remaking the Fire Warrior kit, and the Crisis Suit kit needs it more. I would argue for Pathfinders to go to troops.
4. 100% agree. They are such cool models and have a great idea, and it's a shame they aren't really useable.
5. The Barracuda is an awesome flyer, but I can't see it becoming part of the main codex. How could the Tau flyers be fixed? A points decrease?
Well for starters, need to free up some fast attack slots (I.e. Move pathfinders)
For the Sunshark bomber:
1) Take away the rule that means it might only ever drop one bomb in the entire game (stupid)
2) Give the interceptor drones some form of "Look out sir!" (If a drone is within 12" of the bomber on a 4+ they take the hit instead maybe?)
3) Either make the bomb more dangerous to infantry (S5 AP5 isn't all that) or maybe give it Haywire so it can target vehicles too.
4) maybe make the interceptor drones flyers in their own right (10 all round, 2hp, kind of a mini-Remora)
For the Razorshark:
1) Give it strafing run
2) Maybe extend the range of the guns?
3) Drop it to ~100 points
Too bad we can't do anything about the aesthetics of the models!
Gamgee wrote: Perhaps one of the weakest codexes is screaming for us to be nerfed? You may as well be screaming for every army better than your to be nerfed (almost all of them). It's not like the Tau are the most op faction around if you look at tournaments results it's been a long time since regular TE has even been a thing.
And yet, FSE is doing fairly well right?
What differences are there between FSE and TE?
The main difference is that Crisis Suits are Troops choices and require a mandatory option of 1 XV-8 Crisis Team numbering 3 models(not counting Drones) instead of XV-8 Crisis Teams as Elites, meaning more room for Riptides.
Add in the Signature Systems for FSE and suddenly some of the larger weaknesses of the army are mitigated... not to mention Farsight's Commander Team allowing you to double-dip on your Signature Systems, taking both from FSE and TE.
Right. i'll wait until you get a codex on the level like everyone else before I start taking your arguments with more consideration in mind. Not to mention if they nerf us to your level and then buff the IG to the level of the average new codex now that's effectively double nerf.
Do you really think that you're going to get "effectively a double nerf"?
It's a very dumb thing many game and video game companies fall for. They buff one faction and then nerf another faction that was too strong at the exact same time and it usually leads to the nerf faction having double the nerfs.
That's patently untrue and quite frankly you can't compare video games to tabletop. MMORPGs(the only real place where "factions" come into play) are living games and tend to get constant tweaks. When you have instances like "buff/nerf one faction"(not really the case even in MMOs, the tweaks usually are to specific races within the faction).
An army book isn't like that. They have a set lifespan.
I would have thought that would be common sense or basic logic but I guess not.
I would suggest that if you think these arguments are contrary to "common sense or basic logic", that you have a care as to how you state this position.
I said it's been years since default plain old TE has been a thing. Then you go and say FSE w/ TE allied detachment does good (fourth in tourney). So thanks for proving my point. that's FSE/TE combo and it only placed fourth after all that hard work and it's an outdated 6th edition codex.
I said it's been years since default plain old TE has been a thing. Then you go and say FSE w/ TE allied detachment does good (fourth in tourney). So thanks for proving my point. that's FSE/TE combo and it only placed fourth after all that hard work and it's an outdated 6th edition codex.
The point.
You seem to have missed it in your haste to post some snarky comment and a youtube link.
Nowhere did I say "FSE w/ TE allied detachments", I simply said "FSE is doing fairly well right?".
So, again, what are the big differences between FSE and TE to make them "does good(fourth in tourney)"?
The key one is Crisis Teams as Troops, allowing for more flexibility in Elites.
Martel732 wrote: The Dreadknight is actually a bit overcosted. They are much, much, MUCH easier to take down than Riptide because of operation range issues. No FNP option, crap shooting. CC ability? In a 7th ed? Please.
That's a ridiculous argument. A Dreadknight is only 10 points more than a carnifex, but has:
+2 WS +1 initiative +6'' move Jump-pack move Once-per-game 30'' move At-initiative strength 10 or instant death 2+ armor save 5+ invulnerable save Psychic ability that gives it a 4+ invulnerable save ATSKNF
All for ten points. There is no way in hell the Dreadknight is "overcosted".
This is also why the arguments about the Riptide being fairly costed are insane.
Or it could be that it's the carnifix that's overcosted. Although, I personally think the riptide should go up, maybe 15-30 points, and make the IA a ~35 point upgrade. Then make the HBC not gets hot! with the nova, and it's pretty much set. Maybe fiddle with the prices of the upgrades?
Co'tor Shas wrote: Or it could be that it's the carnifix that's overcosted.
Carnifex is one example of many. Comparing the DK to a stock Hive Tyrant, Wraithlord or Keeper of Secrets makes the disparity even worse.
Sure, you can lower the points values of 80% of MC's in the game so that the the Dreadknight and Riptide look less ridiculous in comparison... or you can just accept that they break the precedent and adjust them so that they fall back into line.
I get you- I just wanted to make a general point about the overcosted vs undercosted thing.
Generally speaking, few units are actually overcosted. If they're ineffective it's usually some other aspect of their design (or the game's design itself) that's the issue.
Martel732 wrote: The Dreadknight is actually a bit overcosted. They are much, much, MUCH easier to take down than Riptide because of operation range issues. No FNP option, crap shooting. CC ability? In a 7th ed? Please.
That's a ridiculous argument. A Dreadknight is only 10 points more than a carnifex, but has:
+2 WS +1 initiative
+6'' move
Jump-pack move
Once-per-game 30'' move
At-initiative strength 10 or instant death
2+ armor save
5+ invulnerable save
Psychic ability that gives it a 4+ invulnerable save
ATSKNF
All for ten points. There is no way in hell the Dreadknight is "overcosted".
This is also why the arguments about the Riptide being fairly costed are insane.
And most of that crap you listed makes NO difference. It's overcosted because it must work at short range.
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BlaxicanX wrote: I get you- I just wanted to make a general point about the overcosted vs undercosted thing.
Generally speaking, few units are actually overcosted. If they're ineffective it's usually some other aspect of their design (or the game's design itself) that's the issue.
If a unit is not effective for their price, they are, by definition, overcosted. There are a TON of overcosted units in 40K.
Overcosted/undercosted doesn't exist in a vacuum, they're adjectives, meaning they're comparison terms. A unit can't be undercosted or overcosted outside of a metric. It performs just fine compared to the other units in its points-group (significantly better then tthe units within its points-group, actually), therefore it isn't overcosted.
Actually, I think it kind of is. Ineffective units need to become more effective, or become cheaper. Until that happens, they are overcosted. Or underpowered. Take your pick.
BlaxicanX wrote: Overcosted/undercosted doesn't exist in a vacuum, they're adjectives, meaning they're comparison terms. A unit can't be undercosted or overcosted outside of a metric. It performs just fine compared to the other units in its points-group (significantly better then them, actually), therefore it isn't overcosted.
The comparison is with respect to its place in the game. For what the DK brings to the table against all possible opponents, it's overcosted. There's too much grav and STR D now for it to be considered durable. I don't care about other units in it's points-group. I care about how the game plays in a general sense. Sounds like the Carnifex is even MORE overcosted.
Martel732 wrote: . For what the DK brings to the table against all possible opponents, it's overcosted.
Compared to what? There is no such thing as undercosted or overcosted in absentia.
Compared to all possible match ups. And all LIKELY matchups. Now that Skyhammer is a thing, DK are in even worse trouble. The existence of Skyhammer makes DK less valuable; I don't have to directly compare to come to this conclusion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Grav and D aren't being toned down anytime soon. The way the game currently plays, the DK is overcosted in a general sense. It's much harder to get grav within range of a Riptide, so it's still quite durable.
So basically your argument is that basically every MC in the game is overcosted except for WK and Riptides which are both undercosted?
Also I love how for the DK "Grav and D means it's overcosted" but in the Riptide's case it's just undercosted fullstop even with its meh default weapon irregardless of Grav or D.
You can't have it both ways, either they're both undercosted or they're both overcosted. That or the DK is perfectly costed and the Riptide is a bit undercosted.
Also, I love how in one thread you defend Grav be so powerful because it's necessary to kill Riptides, DK and WK and then turnaround here to say the DK is overcosted because of it...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: So basically your argument is that basically every MC in the game is overcosted except for WK and Riptides which are both undercosted?
Also I love how for the DK "Grav and D means it's overcosted" but in the Riptide's case it's just undercosted fullstop even with its meh default weapon irregardless of Grav or D.
You can't have it both ways, either they're both undercosted or they're both overcosted. That or the DK is perfectly costed and the Riptide is a bit overcosted.
Also, I love how in one thread you defend Grav be so powerful because it's necessary to kill Riptides, DK and WK and then turnaround here to say the DK is overcosted because of it...
It's only a bit overcosted. It's a victim of the firepower necessary to down WK and Riptide. The DK doesn't have that kind of durability, and so it suffers more. Hence, it is overcosted. The difference is, once again,the ranges at which DK and Riptide operate. Obviously the flyrant is not overcosted, but lots of 3+ armor MCs seem to be in some trouble. 3+ armor means you are dying to scatterlasers very quickly.
If grav and destroyer weapons are invalidating swathes of units in the game, that means that grav and d-weapons need to be toned down, not that those units all need points drops.
"b-but grav and d-weapons aren't being changed anytime soon" is not a valid counter-argument in a hypothetical discussion. Nothing we're talking about is likely to be changed anytime soon, and if it is, likely not in the way that we want it to be.
BlaxicanX wrote: If grav and destroyer weapons are invalidating swathes of units in the game, that means that grav and d-weapons need to be toned down, not that those units all need points drops.
"b-but grav and d-weapons aren't being changed anytime soon" is not a valid counter-argument in a hypothetical discussion. Nothing we're talking about is likely to be changed anytime soon, and if it is, not in the way that we want it to be.
Okay. Let me take this out of the hypothetical realm. When constructing lists for the way the game *currently exists* I judge units especially vulnerable to grav to be somewhat less desirable than before grav became common. Terminators have always been crap because of plasma and their cost, but now some other units have taken hits in desirability as well. Invalidate is too strong of a word, imo, just less desirable. DK are less desirable than they were before grav became common. Saying they are a bit overcosted now is just another way of saying this, because points cost is a measure of desirability in theory.
" that means that grav and d-weapons need to be toned down, not that those units all need points drops."
It could mean either, or a little of both. It takes work to figure it out. Work GW will never do.
Kanluwen wrote: But y'see, that's the thing. Those "shenanigans" you're wanting set aside, they're big ones. A Nova Reactor goes off on 3+, and it's a no-brainer to pay the 35 points for the Stimulant Injector Support System for that FNP.
If you really want to start talking about shenanigans how about we mention the fact the Dreadknight can get an Instant Death Weapon access to Psychic Powers, a shunt move and it is an absolute beast in close combat making it more useful in every phase of the game. Further they are so cheap that you can take several of them and have them impact the rest of your army less leaving more points to fill you your forces. Also statistical wise that means a Nova Reactor has a 1/3 chance of failing and hurting the owner unless you pay for FNP which means you are potentially losing out on other Support Systems that can help your army better like Skyfire for example. Tit for tat bro, both have their own special breed of shenanigans, the Dreadknight just gets to pull them off for much cheaper.
Martel732 wrote: The Dreadknight is actually a bit overcosted. They are much, much, MUCH easier to take down than Riptide because of operation range issues. No FNP option, crap shooting. CC ability? In a 7th ed? Please. If your're worried about non-SKyhammer drop grav, use bubble wrap. The thing is still stupid hard to kill.
The Skyhammer will ignore bubble wrap and nuke the Riptide in a single turn of shooting, also if you want to mess up the bubble wrap combat squad the Devastator Squad and have the bolters shoot the bubble wrap, now they cannot overwatch and the Assault Marines get a free charge. That argument or point does not make sense, bubble wrap will not protect you from that. Also thanks to the amount of Grav Weapon spam that Imperial armies can get the whole argument of "the Riptide is invincible at long range" has even less merit then the little it did before and we have been over this Martel but the Dreadknight is perfect for its optimal range. Its shooting is not crap thanks to its Incinerator & Instant Death Pscilencer and one fact you are forgetting is that it shoots FIRST, your shunt move ensures that it wont have to face counterfire until after you get to shoot, at that point its all about good placement. And lets not forget you guys can bring cheap 320ish point Imperial Knights that have a 3-4+ Invulnerable save, x2 D CC Weapons and can get across the table in two turns, or the fact that you can put Grav Centurions, Skitarri Vanguard ect. in Drop Pods and be right in our face turn one or even the Mechanicum Kataphrons with a 30 Inch range 6 shot Grav Weapon, The Skyhammer Assault Formation...I could go on.
", the Dreadknight just gets to pull them off for much cheaper. "
But they're far, far far less effective. I mean CC, seriously? In 7th?
" at that point its all about good placement. "
It's your job to make sure there's no good place to put it.
" but the Dreadknight is perfect for its optimal range"
It's meh.
"And lets not forget you guys can bring cheap 320ish point Imperial Knights that have a 3-4+ Invulnerable save, x2 D CC Weapons and can get across the table in two turns, or the fact that you can put Grav Centurions, Skitarri Vanguard ect. in Drop Pods and be right in our face turn one or even the Mechanicum Kataphrons with a 30 Inch range 6 shot Grav Weapon, The Skyhammer Assault Formation...I could go on.
"
I don't see any of that in C:GK. I'm talking about the DK here. In fact, a bunch of the stuff that you just listed is why I think it's a bit overcosted at this point.
"The Skyhammer will ignore bubble wrap "
Dude, I said NON-Skyhammer. NON. As in NOT Skyhammer. Those drop pod lists you can punk out. You can't punk out Skyhammer for the reasons you listed.
I list all of those other units with Codex Grey Knights because they have access to them as do every single Imperial Army. That is the biggest advantage Imperial armies have over every other faction in the game and I am not wrong in including them in the conversation. And if you are regarding the Dreadknight specifically we have been over this on multiple threads, it is your opinion that it is meh and it's my opinion that it is pretty good, especially due to its cheap point cost and the load out it can take.
gmaleron wrote: I list all of those other units with Codex Grey Knights because they have access to them as do every single Imperial Army. That is the biggest advantage Imperial armies have over every other faction in the game and I am not wrong in including them in the conversation. And if you are regarding the Dreadknight specifically we have been over this on multiple threads, it is your opinion that it is meh and it's my opinion that it is pretty good, especially due to its cheap point cost and the load out it can take.
The Imperial Guard are exempt from that advantage sadly. At the very least until GW get their collective heads out of their collective asses and start fixing things such as Formations and the rampant Strength D and Hull Points and..... Im asking for way to much, aren't we?
The Imperial Guard are exempt from that advantage sadly.
How so? IG are still part of the IoM.
IG get a lot of things from FW as well to supplement then anyways. Beast Hunter Shells. All I have to say on that.
gmaleron wrote: I list all of those other units with Codex Grey Knights because they have access to them as do every single Imperial Army. That is the biggest advantage Imperial armies have over every other faction in the game and I am not wrong in including them in the conversation. And if you are regarding the Dreadknight specifically we have been over this on multiple threads, it is your opinion that it is meh and it's my opinion that it is pretty good, especially due to its cheap point cost and the load out it can take.
Until they print codex: IoM, I think it's wrong to advocate a pay-to-win solution in a game that is already heinously expensive. Those units aren't in C:GK, and so I am NOT talking about them. It doesn't really matter, as none of those options magically make the DK super good anyway.
Martel732 wrote: Until they print codex: IoM, I think it's wrong to advocate a pay-to-win solution in a game that is already heinously expensive. Those units aren't in C:GK, and so I am NOT talking about them.
Well we know they wouldn't consolidate a codex when they use every opportunity to split them out the best they can, with GK being a prime example of that.
But his point is that options exist and it's promoted by GW to use those options. GW is the one advocating that solution. Just simply saying you're not going to use options available when they are supported by the game developers for that specific purpose is more of your personal hang up.
Martel732 wrote: Until they print codex: IoM, I think it's wrong to advocate a pay-to-win solution in a game that is already heinously expensive. Those units aren't in C:GK, and so I am NOT talking about them.
Well we know they wouldn't consolidate a codex when they use every opportunity to split them out the best they can, with GK being a prime example of that.
But his point is that options exist and it's promoted by GW to use those options. GW is the one advocating that solution. Just simply saying you're not going to use options available when they are supported by the game developers for that specific purpose is more of your personal hang up.
As I pointed out, none of those options improve the DK anyway. I still think it's far inferior to the Riptide, due to the suicidal nature of its mission. It's not so much of a personal hang up as a financial reality. I don't think its fair to compare a $1000 Xeno army to $6000 of IoM models/books. That's pay-to-win.
The Imperial Guard are exempt from that advantage sadly.
How so? IG are still part of the IoM.
IG get a lot of things from FW as well to supplement then anyways. Beast Hunter Shells. All I have to say on that.
You only get Beast Hunters if you are willing to pay for them and have the already heinously expensive Imperial Armour book 2.
Martel732 wrote:
As I pointed out, none of those options improve the DK anyway. I still think it's far inferior to the Riptide, due to the suicidal nature of its mission. It's not so much of a personal hang up as a financial reality. I don't think its fair to compare a $1000 Xeno army to $6000 of IoM models/books. That's pay-to-win.
I think those numbers are a bit intentionally exaggerated. Regardless, the game is based around the concept of getting formations and small detachments to mix and match armies while building a collection. This is the point of the game now. You can say how much of a personal hang up you have all you want, but in the end it remains just that. Your personal hang up. The options are available. Balancing units now have to be factored in with what can be brought alongside it. This is a thing.
master of ordinance wrote:
You only get Beast Hunters if you are willing to pay for them and have the already heinously expensive Imperial Armour book 2.
Yeah, some things cost points and books cost money. But again, options exist.
Martel732 wrote:
As I pointed out, none of those options improve the DK anyway. I still think it's far inferior to the Riptide, due to the suicidal nature of its mission. It's not so much of a personal hang up as a financial reality. I don't think its fair to compare a $1000 Xeno army to $6000 of IoM models/books. That's pay-to-win.
I think those numbers are a bit intentionally exaggerated. Regardless, the game is based around the concept of getting formations and small detachments to mix and match armies while building a collection. This is the point of the game now. You can say how much of a personal hang up you have all you want, but in the end it remains just that. Your personal hang up. The options are available. Balancing units now have to be factored in with what can be brought alongside it. This is a thing.
Except it's really NOT a thing, barring people saying "Well, you're IoM" to the underperforming IoM books.
I don't see Tau players being told that they NEED to have FSE in order to compete, or that they NEED to have every faction codex to field some random formation.
Tau can do fine by themselves, FSE can do fine by itself, but for whatever reason heavens flippin' forbid an IoM player mentions they're having a problem before the ever so "helpful" xenos players come crawling out of the woodwork to suggest "Just ally in this formation/CAD/character/whatever".
master of ordinance wrote:
You only get Beast Hunters if you are willing to pay for them and have the already heinously expensive Imperial Armour book 2.
Yeah, some things cost points and books cost money. But again, options exist.
The point he made is a valid one. IA books aren't a "regular stock" item anywhere barring FW, to pretend like those are a valid solution is just as silly as the whole "Well, you're IoM" response.
master of ordinance wrote:
You only get Beast Hunters if you are willing to pay for them and have the already heinously expensive Imperial Armour book 2.
Yeah, some things cost points and books cost money. But again, options exist.
Finding them as standard stock is a nightmare.
Fortunately I have the internet and a good knowledge of certain sites thus I got mine for nothing but still, my point stands. And the Vanquisher is 150+shells. And it is a command tank only choice.
Kanluwen wrote: Except it's really NOT a thing, barring people saying "Well, you're IoM" to the underperforming IoM books.
I don't see Tau players being told that they NEED to have FSE in order to compete, or that they NEED to have every faction codex to field some random formation.
Tau can do fine by themselves, FSE can do fine by itself, but for whatever reason heavens flippin' forbid an IoM player mentions they're having a problem before the ever so "helpful" xenos players come crawling out of the woodwork to suggest "Just ally in this formation/CAD/character/whatever".
We don't need to be told because we don't have access to OVER HALF the books in the game, that is a very silly comparison. Also Tau are fine by themselves, in a casual setting when it comes to competitive settings we struggle which as mentioned earlier we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years. And sorry for mentioning a legitimate way to help your army out, it's actually kind of amusing that you're taking it as an insult rather than a a potential source of strength. The amount of tactical flexibility you have with Imperial armies is amazing and I am surprised that people don't do it more often.
Why do they need to be found in a store's inventory? Online ordering is not a new thing. Access to items is not a limiting factor really unless it's out of stock or simply afraid to pay shipping costs.
Kanluwen wrote: Except it's really NOT a thing, barring people saying "Well, you're IoM" to the underperforming IoM books.
I don't see Tau players being told that they NEED to have FSE in order to compete, or that they NEED to have every faction codex to field some random formation.
Tau can do fine by themselves, FSE can do fine by itself, but for whatever reason heavens flippin' forbid an IoM player mentions they're having a problem before the ever so "helpful" xenos players come crawling out of the woodwork to suggest "Just ally in this formation/CAD/character/whatever".
We don't need to be told because we don't have access to OVER HALF the books in the game, that is a very silly comparison.
Wrong.
You have access to them, just not as Battle Brothers. You can pretend "that is a very silly comparison", but it's strictly not true when the formation in question is something strong which doesn't need crap like psykers casting on it or being shoved into drop pods or any other nonsense.
Also Tau are fine by themselves, in a casual setting when it comes to competitive settings we struggle which as mentioned earlier we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years.
How many tournaments do you legitimately play in? How many BIG tournaments do you think anyone on this forum play in?
And sorry for mentioning a legitimate way to help your army out, it's actually kind of amusing that you're taking it as an insult rather than a a potential source of strength.
It's not a way to help MY army out. MY army is preferred to be pure Skitarii, but because of the fact that I have several local players like yourself who seemingly just shift from netlist to netlist to maintain their "W/L ratio" or jump armies when their current one goes down even a smidge in "major tournament rankings"(despite not ONCE ever attending any of the local tournaments with cash/product prizes) I don't get to field my army my way anymore. I have to bring 3 flippin' books with me and run the WD formation for the War Convocation in order to even come out close.
So yeah, it IS an insult. It's insulting that players like yourself have this delusional idea that your army NEEDS to be buffed because "we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years" while at the same time insisting that MY book is broken because I have a single flipping formation in WD that I COULD run.
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Savageconvoy wrote: Why do they need to be found in a store's inventory? Online ordering is not a new thing. Access to items is not a limiting factor really unless it's out of stock or simply afraid to pay shipping costs.
Online ordering may not be a new thing, but I don't expect my opponent to be able to tell me what my own items do when I'm running FW--nor will I ever allow anyone to show up with a Battlescribe list featuring FW items or Supplement lists while not having the books after the last game I had against a Tau player running one of the FW Riptides with an Earth Caste Pilot Array.
Spoiler alert? You can't do that. They're specifically barred from having FSE items.
It's not a way to help MY army out. MY army is preferred to be pure Skitarii
Personal hang ups on your end. IK was released as a stand alone army with the clear intent that allies would be used or that IK would be added into other IoM armies. The game is terribly balanced at this point. However we need to be aware of that to consider what psychic hijinks can be done, as someone mentioned before about GoI, among other things.
but because of the fact that I have several local players like yourself who seemingly just shift from netlist to netlist to maintain their "W/L ratio" or jump armies when their current one goes down even a smidge in "major tournament rankings"(despite not ONCE ever attending any of the local tournaments with cash/product prizes) I don't get to field my army my way anymore. I have to bring 3 flippin' books with me and run the WD formation for the War Convocation in order to even come out close.
So yeah, it IS an insult. It's insulting that players like yourself have this delusional idea that your army NEEDS to be buffed because "we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years" while at the same time insisting that MY book is broken because I have a single flipping formation in WD that I COULD run.
I find it very ironic you feel insulted while stating a bunch of insulting assumptions. IoM has options. Pretending IK and the like don't exist does nothing to actually further this discussion. Ignoring Tau's actual tournament viability and competitive standing does nothing to further this conversation.
Outside of one model, Tau are not overpowered. I believe the person you're responding to even acknowledges the IA could receive a points boost. The HBC has always been incredibly lackluster. It does no good to the discussion to pretend the existence, and acceptance, of one model that is OP completely eliminates the need for other weapons and models in the army from receiving actual buffs. Do you want to honestly tell me that Vespid do not need a buff?
If you really want to see where Tau stand, ask someone to field an army with no Riptides in it. It would resemble a fairly standard 5th ed list. I imagine the same complaints from 5th ed as well.
Online ordering may not be a new thing, but I don't expect my opponent to be able to tell me what my own items do when I'm running FW--nor will I ever allow anyone to show up with a Battlescribe list featuring FW items or Supplement lists while not having the books after the last game I had against a Tau player running one of the FW Riptides with an Earth Caste Pilot Array.
Spoiler alert? You can't do that. They're specifically barred from having FSE items.
So what is the problem then? Your opponent not having the book? Why did you play them in the first place? You not having every copy of the books?
It's not a way to help MY army out. MY army is preferred to be pure Skitarii
Personal hang ups on your end. IK was released as a stand alone army with the clear intent that allies would be used or that IK would be added into other IoM armies. The game is terribly balanced at this point. However we need to be aware of that to consider what psychic hijinks can be done, as someone mentioned before about GoI, among other things.
but because of the fact that I have several local players like yourself who seemingly just shift from netlist to netlist to maintain their "W/L ratio" or jump armies when their current one goes down even a smidge in "major tournament rankings"(despite not ONCE ever attending any of the local tournaments with cash/product prizes) I don't get to field my army my way anymore. I have to bring 3 flippin' books with me and run the WD formation for the War Convocation in order to even come out close.
So yeah, it IS an insult. It's insulting that players like yourself have this delusional idea that your army NEEDS to be buffed because "we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years" while at the same time insisting that MY book is broken because I have a single flipping formation in WD that I COULD run.
I find it very ironic you feel insulted while stating a bunch of insulting assumptions. IoM has options. Pretending IK and the like don't exist does nothing to actually further this discussion. Ignoring Tau's actual tournament viability and competitive standing does nothing to further this conversation.
Outside of one model, Tau are not overpowered. I believe the person you're responding to even acknowledges the IA could receive a points boost. The HBC has always been incredibly lackluster. It does no good to the discussion to pretend the existence, and acceptance, of one model that is OP completely eliminates the need for other weapons and models in the army from receiving actual buffs. Do you want to honestly tell me that Vespid do not need a buff?
If you really want to see where Tau stand, ask someone to field an army with no Riptides in it. It would resemble a fairly standard 5th ed list. I imagine the same complaints from 5th ed as well.
Online ordering may not be a new thing, but I don't expect my opponent to be able to tell me what my own items do when I'm running FW--nor will I ever allow anyone to show up with a Battlescribe list featuring FW items or Supplement lists while not having the books after the last game I had against a Tau player running one of the FW Riptides with an Earth Caste Pilot Array.
Spoiler alert? You can't do that. They're specifically barred from having FSE items.
So what is the problem then? Your opponent not having the book? Why did you play them in the first place? You not having every copy of the books?
Ah, I like this:
"Your Imperial Guard are utterly overpowered. They can like, totally take Knights and Space Marines and Grey Knights as allies. Thats so totally overpowered, they can smack down Tau/other force so easily its unreal so they must totally be OP like your arguments are invalid because your just a noob scrub"
So we are overpowered because we have to ally with with some of the most broken armies out there just to stand a hope in hell against your Tau. Just to give you a major hint here, that does not mean that the IOM lists are all overpowered. It means that a small number of armies are powerful and that they are being used by players such as yourself to prop them up, or as an alternative.
It does most definitely not make the under performing codexes broken.
I play the Imperial Guard. I do not play with allies, I go pure IG. I should be able to take on a Tau force and have a decent chance of winning, assuming I have not made some utterly idiotic choices with my army. Right now 99% of the time I will lose no matter what I bring. Of course by your reasoning that is my fault for not bringing 2 Knights and a dozen SM squads.
Newsflash:
1) not every player can afford these big flashy kits. Sure, some can. One of the managers of my club has an entire 30K army, a Knight army and an Adeptus Mechanicus force. He can afford these obscenely expensive kits. I cant. I can not afford to spend £85 per model for two units just so that I can stand a chance against the Rapetides and avoidance suits, the Eldar /D/ickery, the AdMech Haywire hell, the Space Smurf tide, etc. And neither should I have too. My army should be capable of taking these on. But it isnt.
2) Not every player is a WAAC allies user. Some of us enjoy the simplicity of deploying only one army, or just want to enjoy this particular force.We dont want to have to rely on the SM's to come in and save our bacon or some battlemech that has no actual right to be anywhere near a non apocalypse game.
We want to play simple army, why should we be forced to bring a dozen different ones just to face down some minmax player?
The fact that the IG codex as a stand-alone is rather poor is NOT the fault of the Tau codex.
IG needs his own fixes, even more than Tau does, and unlike Tau does not need a few tone-downs in the mix (as there is not a single "too good" IG unit I'm aware of)
But its still not Tau's fault.
Tau needs the IA to be toned down, the method already disccused (just take away the non-NOVA blast, so intercepting pie plates gets hard), and his FNP costing a bit more.
Beyond that, broadsides need rework (too fragile for the model's apperance, one gun too good at the price, the other pointless, and the "upgrade" secondary is a downgrade. make it tougher with rail rifles stronger, and than increase the cost-fixed.)
After that, everything tau has is either in the "its fine where it is, not dominating, but useful" zone and below, with hammerheads and stealth suits staring the "good enough for casual play" section, and vespids still take 1# in the "just...why..." department.
Even markerlights are not as amazing some people claim them to be, be even they could work as a mere -1 cover rather than total ignoring, had marker sources been more fieldable without going through loops. because unlike most armies, tau does not have native cover-ignoring guns, and MUST rely on markers for it. (and with things like ravenwing around, an option for getting around cover is critical.)
So we are overpowered because we have to ally with with some of the most broken armies out there just to stand a hope in hell against your Tau.
Instead of making up silly quotes about what I'm saying maybe you could just read what I'm actually saying. IoM has lots of options available to them. The current set up of the allies matrix, psychic phase, formations, and detachments offers far more options to the IoM than Tau. Considering FW options and it leans more in the IoM's favor.
I said that it is fair to assess an army or unit based off what can be paired with it. Much like you compare markerlights in every Tau unit comparison. Without even talking about a list you make an assumption that there are markerlights available. Why? Because it is an option you fully accept exists. It is a double standard.
And really? You think the situation against lone Tau and IoM armies are still that one sided?
Just to give you a major hint here, that does not mean that the IOM lists are all overpowered. It means that a small number of armies are powerful and that they are being used by players such as yourself to prop them up, or as an alternative.
It does most definitely not make the under performing codexes broken.
Yet for some reason in every thread of this nature all talk about units that repeatedly underperform or never even see play (Vespid, fighter/bomber, sniper drones, pathfinder heavy weapons, devilfish, shaper, stealth suits) it seems to be completely taboo to bring up the notion that some units may need a buff to bring them up to the standard. Again, a double standard.
I should be able to take on a Tau force and have a decent chance of winning, assuming I have not made some utterly idiotic choices with my army. Right now 99% of the time I will lose no matter what I bring. Of course by your reasoning that is my fault for not bringing 2 Knights and a dozen SM squads.
Not at all. Even without FW options available. I'd have to ask to see a battle report and list composition since a 99% lose rate suggest there may be something noticeably wrong. I know for a fact I could not pull a 99% win rate against IG players in my area if I ever bothered counting. Maybe this is causing a bit of malice and bias on your end.
1) not every player can afford these big flashy kits.
I'm not the one making the game. It's not my fault how the game is set up, I'm just acknowledging it for what it is. Every army book should be balanced within itself and without, but it isn't. This is the age of formations and dataslates. I believe less than a month after the Nid codex was released they issued two formations. IK came out for a single model with a weapon variant, but was meant to be an add on to every IoM faction. You can acknowledge the environment we are in or you can pretend it doesn't exist, but please make that apparent before we try having a discussion on the issue so I will know if I'm wasting my time.
2) Not every player is a WAAC allies user.
Not all allies users are WAAC. Some just like trying to start a second army in a slow manner.
Some of us enjoy the simplicity of deploying only one army, or just want to enjoy this particular force.We dont want to have to rely on the SM's to come in and save our bacon or some battlemech that has no actual right to be anywhere near a non apocalypse game.
We want to play simple army, why should we be forced to bring a dozen different ones just to face down some minmax player?
Then take up your personal issue with GW. They are the ones that have made the current environment that supports the multi-army play and have done so across 6th. The only change now is that it's more open with the unbound rules completely throwing FOC and ally matrix out the window.
Again, where is the problem in discussing how the underused and under powered units could be made useful?
Online ordering may not be a new thing, but I don't expect my opponent to be able to tell me what my own items do when I'm running FW--nor will I ever allow anyone to show up with a Battlescribe list featuring FW items or Supplement lists while not having the books after the last game I had against a Tau player running one of the FW Riptides with an Earth Caste Pilot Array.
Spoiler alert? You can't do that. They're specifically barred from having FSE items.
So what is the problem then? Your opponent not having the book? Why did you play them in the first place? You not having every copy of the books?
The problem is a combination of all of the above.
Players start copy/pasting lists they find on the internet or use tools like Battlescribe without knowing their own books. It's not MY job to review your damn list before we even play a friendly game to make sure you've made a legal list. That's YOUR job.
