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I edited to elaborate.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Overcosted/undercosted doesn't exist in a vacuum, they're adjectives, meaning they're comparison terms. A unit can't be undercosted or overcosted outside of a metric. It performs just fine compared to the other units in its points-group (significantly better then them, actually), therefore it isn't overcosted.

The comparison is with respect to its place in the game. For what the DK brings to the table against all possible opponents, it's overcosted. There's too much grav and STR D now for it to be considered durable. I don't care about other units in it's points-group. I care about how the game plays in a general sense. Sounds like the Carnifex is even MORE overcosted.

Martel732 wrote:
. For what the DK brings to the table against all possible opponents, it's overcosted.

Compared to what? There is no such thing as undercosted or overcosted in absentia.

Martel732 wrote:
There's too much grav and STR D now for it to be considered durable.

That doesn't mean it's overcosted, it means that grav and strength D need to be toned down.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
. For what the DK brings to the table against all possible opponents, it's overcosted.

Compared to what? There is no such thing as undercosted or overcosted in absentia.

Compared to all possible match ups. And all LIKELY matchups. Now that Skyhammer is a thing, DK are in even worse trouble. The existence of Skyhammer makes DK less valuable; I don't have to directly compare to come to this conclusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grav and D aren't being toned down anytime soon. The way the game currently plays, the DK is overcosted in a general sense. It's much harder to get grav within range of a Riptide, so it's still quite durable.

Martel732 wrote:

Grav and D aren't being toned down anytime soon.

And the Dreadknight isn't having its points value adjusted anytime soon either. You realize that this is a hypothetical discussion, yes?

So basically your argument is that basically every MC in the game is overcosted except for WK and Riptides which are both undercosted?

Also I love how for the DK "Grav and D means it's overcosted" but in the Riptide's case it's just undercosted fullstop even with its meh default weapon irregardless of Grav or D.

You can't have it both ways, either they're both undercosted or they're both overcosted. That or the DK is perfectly costed and the Riptide is a bit undercosted.

Also, I love how in one thread you defend Grav be so powerful because it's necessary to kill Riptides, DK and WK and then turnaround here to say the DK is overcosted because of it...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So basically your argument is that basically every MC in the game is overcosted except for WK and Riptides which are both undercosted?

Also I love how for the DK "Grav and D means it's overcosted" but in the Riptide's case it's just undercosted fullstop even with its meh default weapon irregardless of Grav or D.

You can't have it both ways, either they're both undercosted or they're both overcosted. That or the DK is perfectly costed and the Riptide is a bit overcosted.

Also, I love how in one thread you defend Grav be so powerful because it's necessary to kill Riptides, DK and WK and then turnaround here to say the DK is overcosted because of it...

It's only a bit overcosted. It's a victim of the firepower necessary to down WK and Riptide. The DK doesn't have that kind of durability, and so it suffers more. Hence, it is overcosted. The difference is, once again,the ranges at which DK and Riptide operate. Obviously the flyrant is not overcosted, but lots of 3+ armor MCs seem to be in some trouble. 3+ armor means you are dying to scatterlasers very quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Grav and D aren't being toned down anytime soon.

And the Dreadknight isn't having its points value adjusted anytime soon either. You realize that this is a hypothetical discussion, yes?

Yes, and at it's current cost, it's a bit overcosted. What's the big deal? It's hardly the most overcosted thing in the game.

If grav and destroyer weapons are invalidating swathes of units in the game, that means that grav and d-weapons need to be toned down, not that those units all need points drops.

"b-but grav and d-weapons aren't being changed anytime soon" is not a valid counter-argument in a hypothetical discussion. Nothing we're talking about is likely to be changed anytime soon, and if it is, likely not in the way that we want it to be.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If grav and destroyer weapons are invalidating swathes of units in the game, that means that grav and d-weapons need to be toned down, not that those units all need points drops.

"b-but grav and d-weapons aren't being changed anytime soon" is not a valid counter-argument in a hypothetical discussion. Nothing we're talking about is likely to be changed anytime soon, and if it is, not in the way that we want it to be.

Okay. Let me take this out of the hypothetical realm. When constructing lists for the way the game *currently exists* I judge units especially vulnerable to grav to be somewhat less desirable than before grav became common. Terminators have always been crap because of plasma and their cost, but now some other units have taken hits in desirability as well. Invalidate is too strong of a word, imo, just less desirable. DK are less desirable than they were before grav became common. Saying they are a bit overcosted now is just another way of saying this, because points cost is a measure of desirability in theory.

" that means that grav and d-weapons need to be toned down, not that those units all need points drops."

It could mean either, or a little of both. It takes work to figure it out. Work GW will never do.

 Kanluwen wrote:
But y'see, that's the thing. Those "shenanigans" you're wanting set aside, they're big ones. A Nova Reactor goes off on 3+, and it's a no-brainer to pay the 35 points for the Stimulant Injector Support System for that FNP.

If you really want to start talking about shenanigans how about we mention the fact the Dreadknight can get an Instant Death Weapon access to Psychic Powers, a shunt move and it is an absolute beast in close combat making it more useful in every phase of the game. Further they are so cheap that you can take several of them and have them impact the rest of your army less leaving more points to fill you your forces. Also statistical wise that means a Nova Reactor has a 1/3 chance of failing and hurting the owner unless you pay for FNP which means you are potentially losing out on other Support Systems that can help your army better like Skyfire for example. Tit for tat bro, both have their own special breed of shenanigans, the Dreadknight just gets to pull them off for much cheaper.

Martel732 wrote:
The Dreadknight is actually a bit overcosted. They are much, much, MUCH easier to take down than Riptide because of operation range issues. No FNP option, crap shooting. CC ability? In a 7th ed? Please. If your're worried about non-SKyhammer drop grav, use bubble wrap. The thing is still stupid hard to kill.

The Skyhammer will ignore bubble wrap and nuke the Riptide in a single turn of shooting, also if you want to mess up the bubble wrap combat squad the Devastator Squad and have the bolters shoot the bubble wrap, now they cannot overwatch and the Assault Marines get a free charge. That argument or point does not make sense, bubble wrap will not protect you from that. Also thanks to the amount of Grav Weapon spam that Imperial armies can get the whole argument of "the Riptide is invincible at long range" has even less merit then the little it did before and we have been over this Martel but the Dreadknight is perfect for its optimal range. Its shooting is not crap thanks to its Incinerator & Instant Death Pscilencer and one fact you are forgetting is that it shoots FIRST, your shunt move ensures that it wont have to face counterfire until after you get to shoot, at that point its all about good placement. And lets not forget you guys can bring cheap 320ish point Imperial Knights that have a 3-4+ Invulnerable save, x2 D CC Weapons and can get across the table in two turns, or the fact that you can put Grav Centurions, Skitarri Vanguard ect. in Drop Pods and be right in our face turn one or even the Mechanicum Kataphrons with a 30 Inch range 6 shot Grav Weapon, The Skyhammer Assault Formation...I could go on.

", the Dreadknight just gets to pull them off for much cheaper. "

But they're far, far far less effective. I mean CC, seriously? In 7th?

" at that point its all about good placement. "

It's your job to make sure there's no good place to put it.

" but the Dreadknight is perfect for its optimal range"

It's meh.

"And lets not forget you guys can bring cheap 320ish point Imperial Knights that have a 3-4+ Invulnerable save, x2 D CC Weapons and can get across the table in two turns, or the fact that you can put Grav Centurions, Skitarri Vanguard ect. in Drop Pods and be right in our face turn one or even the Mechanicum Kataphrons with a 30 Inch range 6 shot Grav Weapon, The Skyhammer Assault Formation...I could go on.
"
I don't see any of that in C:GK. I'm talking about the DK here. In fact, a bunch of the stuff that you just listed is why I think it's a bit overcosted at this point.

"The Skyhammer will ignore bubble wrap "

Dude, I said NON-Skyhammer. NON. As in NOT Skyhammer. Those drop pod lists you can punk out. You can't punk out Skyhammer for the reasons you listed.

I list all of those other units with Codex Grey Knights because they have access to them as do every single Imperial Army. That is the biggest advantage Imperial armies have over every other faction in the game and I am not wrong in including them in the conversation. And if you are regarding the Dreadknight specifically we have been over this on multiple threads, it is your opinion that it is meh and it's my opinion that it is pretty good, especially due to its cheap point cost and the load out it can take.

 gmaleron wrote:
I list all of those other units with Codex Grey Knights because they have access to them as do every single Imperial Army. That is the biggest advantage Imperial armies have over every other faction in the game and I am not wrong in including them in the conversation. And if you are regarding the Dreadknight specifically we have been over this on multiple threads, it is your opinion that it is meh and it's my opinion that it is pretty good, especially due to its cheap point cost and the load out it can take.

The Imperial Guard are exempt from that advantage sadly. At the very least until GW get their collective heads out of their collective asses and start fixing things such as Formations and the rampant Strength D and Hull Points and..... Im asking for way to much, aren't we?

 master of ordinance wrote:

The Imperial Guard are exempt from that advantage sadly.

How so? IG are still part of the IoM.
IG get a lot of things from FW as well to supplement then anyways. Beast Hunter Shells. All I have to say on that.

 gmaleron wrote:
I list all of those other units with Codex Grey Knights because they have access to them as do every single Imperial Army. That is the biggest advantage Imperial armies have over every other faction in the game and I am not wrong in including them in the conversation. And if you are regarding the Dreadknight specifically we have been over this on multiple threads, it is your opinion that it is meh and it's my opinion that it is pretty good, especially due to its cheap point cost and the load out it can take.

Until they print codex: IoM, I think it's wrong to advocate a pay-to-win solution in a game that is already heinously expensive. Those units aren't in C:GK, and so I am NOT talking about them. It doesn't really matter, as none of those options magically make the DK super good anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
Until they print codex: IoM, I think it's wrong to advocate a pay-to-win solution in a game that is already heinously expensive. Those units aren't in C:GK, and so I am NOT talking about them.

Well we know they wouldn't consolidate a codex when they use every opportunity to split them out the best they can, with GK being a prime example of that.
But his point is that options exist and it's promoted by GW to use those options. GW is the one advocating that solution. Just simply saying you're not going to use options available when they are supported by the game developers for that specific purpose is more of your personal hang up.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Until they print codex: IoM, I think it's wrong to advocate a pay-to-win solution in a game that is already heinously expensive. Those units aren't in C:GK, and so I am NOT talking about them.

Well we know they wouldn't consolidate a codex when they use every opportunity to split them out the best they can, with GK being a prime example of that.
But his point is that options exist and it's promoted by GW to use those options. GW is the one advocating that solution. Just simply saying you're not going to use options available when they are supported by the game developers for that specific purpose is more of your personal hang up.

As I pointed out, none of those options improve the DK anyway. I still think it's far inferior to the Riptide, due to the suicidal nature of its mission. It's not so much of a personal hang up as a financial reality. I don't think its fair to compare a $1000 Xeno army to $6000 of IoM models/books. That's pay-to-win.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

The Imperial Guard are exempt from that advantage sadly.

How so? IG are still part of the IoM.
IG get a lot of things from FW as well to supplement then anyways. Beast Hunter Shells. All I have to say on that.

You only get Beast Hunters if you are willing to pay for them and have the already heinously expensive Imperial Armour book 2.

Martel732 wrote:
As I pointed out, none of those options improve the DK anyway. I still think it's far inferior to the Riptide, due to the suicidal nature of its mission. It's not so much of a personal hang up as a financial reality. I don't think its fair to compare a $1000 Xeno army to $6000 of IoM models/books. That's pay-to-win.

I think those numbers are a bit intentionally exaggerated. Regardless, the game is based around the concept of getting formations and small detachments to mix and match armies while building a collection. This is the point of the game now. You can say how much of a personal hang up you have all you want, but in the end it remains just that. Your personal hang up. The options are available. Balancing units now have to be factored in with what can be brought alongside it. This is a thing.

master of ordinance wrote:
You only get Beast Hunters if you are willing to pay for them and have the already heinously expensive Imperial Armour book 2.

Yeah, some things cost points and books cost money. But again, options exist.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I pointed out, none of those options improve the DK anyway. I still think it's far inferior to the Riptide, due to the suicidal nature of its mission. It's not so much of a personal hang up as a financial reality. I don't think its fair to compare a $1000 Xeno army to $6000 of IoM models/books. That's pay-to-win.

I think those numbers are a bit intentionally exaggerated. Regardless, the game is based around the concept of getting formations and small detachments to mix and match armies while building a collection. This is the point of the game now. You can say how much of a personal hang up you have all you want, but in the end it remains just that. Your personal hang up. The options are available. Balancing units now have to be factored in with what can be brought alongside it. This is a thing.

Except it's really NOT a thing, barring people saying "Well, you're IoM" to the underperforming IoM books.
I don't see Tau players being told that they NEED to have FSE in order to compete, or that they NEED to have every faction codex to field some random formation.

Tau can do fine by themselves, FSE can do fine by itself, but for whatever reason heavens flippin' forbid an IoM player mentions they're having a problem before the ever so "helpful" xenos players come crawling out of the woodwork to suggest "Just ally in this formation/CAD/character/whatever".

master of ordinance wrote:
You only get Beast Hunters if you are willing to pay for them and have the already heinously expensive Imperial Armour book 2.

Yeah, some things cost points and books cost money. But again, options exist.

The point he made is a valid one. IA books aren't a "regular stock" item anywhere barring FW, to pretend like those are a valid solution is just as silly as the whole "Well, you're IoM" response.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:
You only get Beast Hunters if you are willing to pay for them and have the already heinously expensive Imperial Armour book 2.

Yeah, some things cost points and books cost money. But again, options exist.

Finding them as standard stock is a nightmare.

Fortunately I have the internet and a good knowledge of certain sites thus I got mine for nothing but still, my point stands. And the Vanquisher is 150+shells. And it is a command tank only choice.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Except it's really NOT a thing, barring people saying "Well, you're IoM" to the underperforming IoM books.
I don't see Tau players being told that they NEED to have FSE in order to compete, or that they NEED to have every faction codex to field some random formation.

Tau can do fine by themselves, FSE can do fine by itself, but for whatever reason heavens flippin' forbid an IoM player mentions they're having a problem before the ever so "helpful" xenos players come crawling out of the woodwork to suggest "Just ally in this formation/CAD/character/whatever".

We don't need to be told because we don't have access to OVER HALF the books in the game, that is a very silly comparison. Also Tau are fine by themselves, in a casual setting when it comes to competitive settings we struggle which as mentioned earlier we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years. And sorry for mentioning a legitimate way to help your army out, it's actually kind of amusing that you're taking it as an insult rather than a a potential source of strength. The amount of tactical flexibility you have with Imperial armies is amazing and I am surprised that people don't do it more often.

Why do they need to be found in a store's inventory? Online ordering is not a new thing. Access to items is not a limiting factor really unless it's out of stock or simply afraid to pay shipping costs.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Except it's really NOT a thing, barring people saying "Well, you're IoM" to the underperforming IoM books.
I don't see Tau players being told that they NEED to have FSE in order to compete, or that they NEED to have every faction codex to field some random formation.

Tau can do fine by themselves, FSE can do fine by itself, but for whatever reason heavens flippin' forbid an IoM player mentions they're having a problem before the ever so "helpful" xenos players come crawling out of the woodwork to suggest "Just ally in this formation/CAD/character/whatever".

We don't need to be told because we don't have access to OVER HALF the books in the game, that is a very silly comparison.

Wrong.
You have access to them, just not as Battle Brothers. You can pretend "that is a very silly comparison", but it's strictly not true when the formation in question is something strong which doesn't need crap like psykers casting on it or being shoved into drop pods or any other nonsense.

Also Tau are fine by themselves, in a casual setting when it comes to competitive settings we struggle which as mentioned earlier we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years.

How many tournaments do you legitimately play in? How many BIG tournaments do you think anyone on this forum play in?

And sorry for mentioning a legitimate way to help your army out, it's actually kind of amusing that you're taking it as an insult rather than a a potential source of strength.

It's not a way to help MY army out. MY army is preferred to be pure Skitarii, but because of the fact that I have several local players like yourself who seemingly just shift from netlist to netlist to maintain their "W/L ratio" or jump armies when their current one goes down even a smidge in "major tournament rankings"(despite not ONCE ever attending any of the local tournaments with cash/product prizes) I don't get to field my army my way anymore. I have to bring 3 flippin' books with me and run the WD formation for the War Convocation in order to even come out close.

So yeah, it IS an insult. It's insulting that players like yourself have this delusional idea that your army NEEDS to be buffed because "we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years" while at the same time insisting that MY book is broken because I have a single flipping formation in WD that I COULD run.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Why do they need to be found in a store's inventory? Online ordering is not a new thing. Access to items is not a limiting factor really unless it's out of stock or simply afraid to pay shipping costs.

Online ordering may not be a new thing, but I don't expect my opponent to be able to tell me what my own items do when I'm running FW--nor will I ever allow anyone to show up with a Battlescribe list featuring FW items or Supplement lists while not having the books after the last game I had against a Tau player running one of the FW Riptides with an Earth Caste Pilot Array.

Spoiler alert? You can't do that. They're specifically barred from having FSE items.

I completely agree with Kanluwen on this. Telling underperforming IoM lists to essentially get a new army is very insulting.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's not a way to help MY army out. MY army is preferred to be pure Skitarii

Personal hang ups on your end. IK was released as a stand alone army with the clear intent that allies would be used or that IK would be added into other IoM armies. The game is terribly balanced at this point. However we need to be aware of that to consider what psychic hijinks can be done, as someone mentioned before about GoI, among other things.

but because of the fact that I have several local players like yourself who seemingly just shift from netlist to netlist to maintain their "W/L ratio" or jump armies when their current one goes down even a smidge in "major tournament rankings"(despite not ONCE ever attending any of the local tournaments with cash/product prizes) I don't get to field my army my way anymore. I have to bring 3 flippin' books with me and run the WD formation for the War Convocation in order to even come out close.

So yeah, it IS an insult. It's insulting that players like yourself have this delusional idea that your army NEEDS to be buffed because "we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years" while at the same time insisting that MY book is broken because I have a single flipping formation in WD that I COULD run.

I find it very ironic you feel insulted while stating a bunch of insulting assumptions. IoM has options. Pretending IK and the like don't exist does nothing to actually further this discussion. Ignoring Tau's actual tournament viability and competitive standing does nothing to further this conversation.

Outside of one model, Tau are not overpowered. I believe the person you're responding to even acknowledges the IA could receive a points boost. The HBC has always been incredibly lackluster. It does no good to the discussion to pretend the existence, and acceptance, of one model that is OP completely eliminates the need for other weapons and models in the army from receiving actual buffs. Do you want to honestly tell me that Vespid do not need a buff?

If you really want to see where Tau stand, ask someone to field an army with no Riptides in it. It would resemble a fairly standard 5th ed list. I imagine the same complaints from 5th ed as well.

Online ordering may not be a new thing, but I don't expect my opponent to be able to tell me what my own items do when I'm running FW--nor will I ever allow anyone to show up with a Battlescribe list featuring FW items or Supplement lists while not having the books after the last game I had against a Tau player running one of the FW Riptides with an Earth Caste Pilot Array.

Spoiler alert? You can't do that. They're specifically barred from having FSE items.

So what is the problem then? Your opponent not having the book? Why did you play them in the first place? You not having every copy of the books?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's not a way to help MY army out. MY army is preferred to be pure Skitarii

Personal hang ups on your end. IK was released as a stand alone army with the clear intent that allies would be used or that IK would be added into other IoM armies. The game is terribly balanced at this point. However we need to be aware of that to consider what psychic hijinks can be done, as someone mentioned before about GoI, among other things.

but because of the fact that I have several local players like yourself who seemingly just shift from netlist to netlist to maintain their "W/L ratio" or jump armies when their current one goes down even a smidge in "major tournament rankings"(despite not ONCE ever attending any of the local tournaments with cash/product prizes) I don't get to field my army my way anymore. I have to bring 3 flippin' books with me and run the WD formation for the War Convocation in order to even come out close.

So yeah, it IS an insult. It's insulting that players like yourself have this delusional idea that your army NEEDS to be buffed because "we've only had a single army take fourth place in the major tournaments once in recent years" while at the same time insisting that MY book is broken because I have a single flipping formation in WD that I COULD run.

I find it very ironic you feel insulted while stating a bunch of insulting assumptions. IoM has options. Pretending IK and the like don't exist does nothing to actually further this discussion. Ignoring Tau's actual tournament viability and competitive standing does nothing to further this conversation.

Outside of one model, Tau are not overpowered. I believe the person you're responding to even acknowledges the IA could receive a points boost. The HBC has always been incredibly lackluster. It does no good to the discussion to pretend the existence, and acceptance, of one model that is OP completely eliminates the need for other weapons and models in the army from receiving actual buffs. Do you want to honestly tell me that Vespid do not need a buff?

If you really want to see where Tau stand, ask someone to field an army with no Riptides in it. It would resemble a fairly standard 5th ed list. I imagine the same complaints from 5th ed as well.

Online ordering may not be a new thing, but I don't expect my opponent to be able to tell me what my own items do when I'm running FW--nor will I ever allow anyone to show up with a Battlescribe list featuring FW items or Supplement lists while not having the books after the last game I had against a Tau player running one of the FW Riptides with an Earth Caste Pilot Array.

Spoiler alert? You can't do that. They're specifically barred from having FSE items.

So what is the problem then? Your opponent not having the book? Why did you play them in the first place? You not having every copy of the books?

Ah, I like this:

"Your Imperial Guard are utterly overpowered. They can like, totally take Knights and Space Marines and Grey Knights as allies. Thats so totally overpowered, they can smack down Tau/other force so easily its unreal so they must totally be OP like your arguments are invalid because your just a noob scrub"

So we are overpowered because we have to ally with with some of the most broken armies out there just to stand a hope in hell against your Tau. Just to give you a major hint here, that does not mean that the IOM lists are all overpowered. It means that a small number of armies are powerful and that they are being used by players such as yourself to prop them up, or as an alternative.
It does most definitely not make the under performing codexes broken.

I play the Imperial Guard. I do not play with allies, I go pure IG. I should be able to take on a Tau force and have a decent chance of winning, assuming I have not made some utterly idiotic choices with my army. Right now 99% of the time I will lose no matter what I bring. Of course by your reasoning that is my fault for not bringing 2 Knights and a dozen SM squads.
Newsflash:

1) not every player can afford these big flashy kits. Sure, some can. One of the managers of my club has an entire 30K army, a Knight army and an Adeptus Mechanicus force. He can afford these obscenely expensive kits. I cant. I can not afford to spend £85 per model for two units just so that I can stand a chance against the Rapetides and avoidance suits, the Eldar /D/ickery, the AdMech Haywire hell, the Space Smurf tide, etc. And neither should I have too. My army should be capable of taking these on. But it isnt.

2) Not every player is a WAAC allies user. Some of us enjoy the simplicity of deploying only one army, or just want to enjoy this particular force.We dont want to have to rely on the SM's to come in and save our bacon or some battlemech that has no actual right to be anywhere near a non apocalypse game.
We want to play simple army, why should we be forced to bring a dozen different ones just to face down some minmax player?

The fact that the IG codex as a stand-alone is rather poor is NOT the fault of the Tau codex.

IG needs his own fixes, even more than Tau does, and unlike Tau does not need a few tone-downs in the mix (as there is not a single "too good" IG unit I'm aware of)

But its still not Tau's fault.


Tau needs the IA to be toned down, the method already disccused (just take away the non-NOVA blast, so intercepting pie plates gets hard), and his FNP costing a bit more.
Beyond that, broadsides need rework (too fragile for the model's apperance, one gun too good at the price, the other pointless, and the "upgrade" secondary is a downgrade. make it tougher with rail rifles stronger, and than increase the cost-fixed.)

After that, everything tau has is either in the "its fine where it is, not dominating, but useful" zone and below, with hammerheads and stealth suits staring the "good enough for casual play" section, and vespids still take 1# in the "just...why..." department.

Even markerlights are not as amazing some people claim them to be, be even they could work as a mere -1 cover rather than total ignoring, had marker sources been more fieldable without going through loops. because unlike most armies, tau does not have native cover-ignoring guns, and MUST rely on markers for it. (and with things like ravenwing around, an option for getting around cover is critical.)

 master of ordinance wrote:

So we are overpowered because we have to ally with with some of the most broken armies out there just to stand a hope in hell against your Tau.

Instead of making up silly quotes about what I'm saying maybe you could just read what I'm actually saying. IoM has lots of options available to them. The current set up of the allies matrix, psychic phase, formations, and detachments offers far more options to the IoM than Tau. Considering FW options and it leans more in the IoM's favor.

I said that it is fair to assess an army or unit based off what can be paired with it. Much like you compare markerlights in every Tau unit comparison. Without even talking about a list you make an assumption that there are markerlights available. Why? Because it is an option you fully accept exists. It is a double standard.

And really? You think the situation against lone Tau and IoM armies are still that one sided?

Just to give you a major hint here, that does not mean that the IOM lists are all overpowered. It means that a small number of armies are powerful and that they are being used by players such as yourself to prop them up, or as an alternative.
It does most definitely not make the under performing codexes broken.

Yet for some reason in every thread of this nature all talk about units that repeatedly underperform or never even see play (Vespid, fighter/bomber, sniper drones, pathfinder heavy weapons, devilfish, shaper, stealth suits) it seems to be completely taboo to bring up the notion that some units may need a buff to bring them up to the standard. Again, a double standard.

I should be able to take on a Tau force and have a decent chance of winning, assuming I have not made some utterly idiotic choices with my army. Right now 99% of the time I will lose no matter what I bring. Of course by your reasoning that is my fault for not bringing 2 Knights and a dozen SM squads.

Not at all. Even without FW options available. I'd have to ask to see a battle report and list composition since a 99% lose rate suggest there may be something noticeably wrong. I know for a fact I could not pull a 99% win rate against IG players in my area if I ever bothered counting. Maybe this is causing a bit of malice and bias on your end.

1) not every player can afford these big flashy kits.

I'm not the one making the game. It's not my fault how the game is set up, I'm just acknowledging it for what it is. Every army book should be balanced within itself and without, but it isn't. This is the age of formations and dataslates. I believe less than a month after the Nid codex was released they issued two formations. IK came out for a single model with a weapon variant, but was meant to be an add on to every IoM faction. You can acknowledge the environment we are in or you can pretend it doesn't exist, but please make that apparent before we try having a discussion on the issue so I will know if I'm wasting my time.

2) Not every player is a WAAC allies user.

Not all allies users are WAAC. Some just like trying to start a second army in a slow manner.

Some of us enjoy the simplicity of deploying only one army, or just want to enjoy this particular force.We dont want to have to rely on the SM's to come in and save our bacon or some battlemech that has no actual right to be anywhere near a non apocalypse game.
We want to play simple army, why should we be forced to bring a dozen different ones just to face down some minmax player?

Then take up your personal issue with GW. They are the ones that have made the current environment that supports the multi-army play and have done so across 6th. The only change now is that it's more open with the unbound rules completely throwing FOC and ally matrix out the window.

Again, where is the problem in discussing how the underused and under powered units could be made useful?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Online ordering may not be a new thing, but I don't expect my opponent to be able to tell me what my own items do when I'm running FW--nor will I ever allow anyone to show up with a Battlescribe list featuring FW items or Supplement lists while not having the books after the last game I had against a Tau player running one of the FW Riptides with an Earth Caste Pilot Array.

Spoiler alert? You can't do that. They're specifically barred from having FSE items.

So what is the problem then? Your opponent not having the book? Why did you play them in the first place? You not having every copy of the books?

The problem is a combination of all of the above.

Players start copy/pasting lists they find on the internet or use tools like Battlescribe without knowing their own books. It's not MY job to review your damn list before we even play a friendly game to make sure you've made a legal list. That's YOUR job.