Make them less perfect and gone down the idea that they have the best This and the best That of all Space Marines. Make them lose. They went out of their way to make other chapters be less than perfect(DA, BA, IF) or underdogs(CF, BA again), they need something similar for the UM. Give them FLAWS that they need to overcome.

I know people hate the whole Forge a Narrative thing, but give your army a story, and make sure to make them realistic and not the Bestest of the Best.

ahh so ultramarines aren't cool, and they are mary sues... meanwhile your favorite stuff did even more silly stuff?

I wish UM bashers would make up their minds.


thing about the Ultramarines is they're by the book exemplars. they're what, GW wants us to think of, when someone says "codex adherant space marines" (althouygh they do have their own things that make them stand out as unique, like every first founding chapter)

Personally for me I find the buy the book guys more intreasting, the guys who break all the rules, rules eistablished by milennia of practice and experiance, and somehow always manage to win, cause they're so special? That honestly kinda bores me. the Ultramarines though, they set the gold standard for everyone else. they're the paragon of Marines.the exemplars. that appeals to me for some reason. but others like the rebel chapters who work outside the lines. and I accept that. they're welcome to their wolfy wolf wolves or bloody blood bloods or whatever they have

Ultramarines on the game table are actually amazing. They play absolutely wonderfully and have several top tier builds. I regularly like to play game wise with UM rules.

UM in the fiction are too annoying to be cool. They are that guy who make up a bunch of rules, lose, and then scream how they lost because X reason. Also they are constant going around telling people how they should run stuff...does that sound like anything resembling "cool". They are pretty much the most pedantic stick in the muds in the imperium.

Model wise they have a number of amusing and not cool design choices. The omega symbol used for UM has a very unfortunate similarity to a toilet...often with the toilet paper wrapped on top Their color scheme while being simple to paint and looking surprisingly good when done well also is easy to do poorly and looks like a smurf due to the unrelenting blue that washes out all model detail. UM models without dry brushing and inks look like blue blobbs to most people outside ~4 feet (ie the length of a board).

If all of this wasn't bad enough they also have tons of successor chapters. This means most of the good painters that want to play "UM" tend to gravitate off into a successor chapter. IMO this has lead to a severe lack of well painted UM armies. I have seen less that 1 in 20 UM that are painted to anything looking even decent. On the other hand DA, BA, GK, and SW are usually more like 1 in 5 or 1 in 10. Alot of it is the UM blue is just a bad color to show model detail until and unless the painter puts in real techniques and effort...actually a lot like their chapter tactics. Seems easy at first glance but actually requires finesse to do well.

I have never had a problem with the Ultramarines. I've always thought they were the cool romanesque marines who were jacks of all trades and masters of none. Matt Ward did a crap job with the 5th edition Codex, sure, but that's something to sneer at Ward at for, not the Ultramarines. Anyone complaining about the Ultramarines in 7th edition is nursing a serious case of butthurt and/or edginess and they probably ought to get that checked out.

That said, Iron Hands and Salamanders are the coolest.

 j31c3n wrote:
I have never had a problem with the Ultramarines. I've always thought they were the cool romanesque marines who were jacks of all trades and masters of none. Matt Ward did a crap job with the 5th edition Codex, sure, but that's something to sneer at Ward at for, not the Ultramarines. Anyone complaining about the Ultramarines in 7th edition is nursing a serious case of butthurt and/or edginess and they probably ought to get that checked out.

That said, Iron Hands and Salamanders are the coolest.

That's the problem. Their iconography and styling are incredibly awesome. But the whole "UM are what all SM strive to be but can never measure up" thing ruins all of it. I was close to choosing UM instead of CF when I got started, but that nonsense sealed the deal.

See the HH - Ultramarines are cool in 007M31.

Change their name. While I have no problems with a planet called ultramar, the name ultramarine is just too rediculious to take seriously. Blood angles come from baal, but they arnt called baalmarines. Just as an example.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Change their name. While I have no problems with a planet called ultramar, the name ultramarine is just too rediculious to take seriously. Blood angles come from baal, but they arnt called baalmarines. Just as an example.

what came first ultramar or the ultramarines? serious question. you sure the realm didn't get it's name from it's rulers?

Honestly I don't think there's really any way to make Ultrasmurfs in specific cool. Take away your spiritual liege and all you're left with is the default basic Space Marines. Vanilla. Normal. Plain.
If you don't like that, you'll probably never care for them.

When I first was getting into 40k I immediately dismissed the idea of playing Ultramarines because I thought everyone would hate me if I did. After hearing more about it I decided against it first because they didn't have their own Codex and second because I found them highly boring.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Change their name. While I have no problems with a planet called ultramar, the name ultramarine is just too rediculious to take seriously. Blood angles come from baal, but they arnt called baalmarines. Just as an example.

it's almost as if Ultramarine is a color. It also just so happens to be the blue they paint their armor. It is more like calling the British army Redcoats.

They do have a flaw, but it's the same many marines seem to possess - pride.

They're so proud of their Primarch, their realm and Chapter that they do make blunders at times. Like the 1st Company getting overrun by Tyranids because guns were running hot and ammo running out. No replacement barrels/guns and too little ammo? IN THEIR OWN FORTRESS ON THEIR OWN HOMEWORLD? And their fleet too would probably have been smashed if the Imperial Navy hadn't turned up in time. That's not a Chapter prepared for war, it's a Chapter that's been living on the legends of it's own greatness for generations.

 SirDonlad wrote:
See the HH - Ultramarines are cool in 007M31.

I don't know. The HH books did a pretty good job of making them colossal donkey caves. So much that even Sicarus would have blushed.

Spetulhu wrote:
They do have a flaw, but it's the same many marines seem to possess - pride.

They're so proud of their Primarch, their realm and Chapter that they do make blunders at times. Like the 1st Company getting overrun by Tyranids because guns were running hot and ammo running out. No replacement barrels/guns and too little ammo? IN THEIR OWN FORTRESS ON THEIR OWN HOMEWORLD? And their fleet too would probably have been smashed if the Imperial Navy hadn't turned up in time. That's not a Chapter prepared for war, it's a Chapter that's been living on the legends of it's own greatness for generations.

To the Ultramarines' credit, the 1st company didn't run out of ammunition because there wasn't enough in the polar fortresses, but because there were enough Tyranids to eat all the bullets they could shoot.

Pride goeth before a fall...to Chaos!

Or that's just a chapter who wasted all of their ammunition on the first billion gaunts that behemoth threw at them. Thats not a blunder. But you may have a point, even tho this is also shared by many marines and make the ultras seem even more bland for sharing their weakness with many other chapters. I guess they are just to bland and perfect marines that I just cannot get on board with. It's much more interesting to have a dark secret or a rage you may succumb to at some point. Adds more flavor and makes the legion come to life.

Edit: ninja'd

The coolest part is that they can boast 600+ chapters claiming Ultramarines heritage, and for that in reality keeps the other loyalist Legions in line, they can put the slapdown on them and they know it.

There is a saying "Without the Ultramarines the Empire is useless, without the Ultramarines the Empire is useless".


But still they are wussies living off the glories of others and doing bugger all themselves.

Read my Sig

IMO the Ultramarines don't need a "flaw." It's not necessary. They aren't the chapter that all other chapters aspire to be. That was just Ward being a fan and taking it too far.. It's not reflected in the newer fluff or the older fluff. Ultramarines are like Mario. Pretty good at everything. But you call someone else if you need a specialist. Jack of all trades, master of none.

I say more Uriel Ventrisness and less Cato Sicariusness. Though they have been fleshing Cato out abit more but he's still a douche.

 j31c3n wrote:
IMO the Ultramarines don't need a "flaw." It's not necessary. They aren't the chapter that all other chapters aspire to be. That was just Ward being a fan and taking it too far.. It's not reflected in the newer fluff or the older fluff. Ultramarines are like Mario. Pretty good at everything. But you call someone else if you need a specialist. Jack of all trades, master of none.

The problem is that the fluff doesn't appear to indicate that. They flat out say they are the best there is.

Someone said their flaw was pride, which all the other chapters suffer from. And then the other chapters suffer from their other problems. Which is ridiculous.

 Nevelon wrote:
All they need to be cool is for the internet hate train to find another target. It was cool to hate them for a while. And that’s mostly over. It’s just a lingering miasma now, just echoes of past hate. They are just as over the top as the other factions. But as the poster boys, they are an easy target. Ward fanboy-ism didn’t help. But that’s another hate train.

I /do/ have a reason to hate the smurfs - every UM player I have met IRL is firmly in the belief that Ultra Marines are not just the best marines, but infallible. And get upset whenever they lose. And have this view of fluff - "Ultras cannot lose, they are Ultras, and they win because they are Ultras".
It's good to think your faction is the best, but these guys just keep going on about it.

Make them cool by having a disaster that results in:

-The UM actually fail a campaign.
-Calgar either dies, or gets put in a Dreadnought
-Sicarius dies.
-The UM have to get saved by another chapter, or some IG (I don't care who)

they did lose a DAYUMnos right?

I can't recall if they managed to 1-up the crons there at a later date, in a continuation of the campaign.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
IMO the Ultramarines don't need a "flaw." It's not necessary. They aren't the chapter that all other chapters aspire to be. That was just Ward being a fan and taking it too far.. It's not reflected in the newer fluff or the older fluff. Ultramarines are like Mario. Pretty good at everything. But you call someone else if you need a specialist. Jack of all trades, master of none.

The problem is that the fluff doesn't appear to indicate that. They flat out say they are the best there is.

Page numbers, please.

I don't play Ultramarine (and never really wanted to), but I'm not sure why they would have to be made 'cool' again. I think they already pretty much are.

From what I understood from the lore I read (which is not that much I have to say), is the Ultramarine are role-model wanna be. They might (or might not) be the best at everything, but no one really care because every chapter don't want to be like them.

In the codex (I had the last one, not sure if I can give page number or whatever), it seem to me like that (like j31c3n mention before) Ultramarine are good at everything, master of nothing. For exemple, Imperial Fist seem to be describe as better than Ultramarine for siege and trench warfare.

On a final note, I think that when the legion fade out into chapter, most of the chapter ''lost'' their specialisation, since the command structure and stuff is not as flexible as before.

The main problem that many have with the Ultramarines is how they are (or at least are in the 5E book) described as better than everyone at everything, because they are better and nobody wants to be anything but Ultramarines, because they are the bestest of the best end of story goodbye.

And there are players who took this literally, and just will not shut up about it.

I imagine that the lore says that about every factions. But, I've never encounter a Ultramarine player who says there better than every other legion lol.

And I also though that codex lore about chapter was written by a POV of the actual chapter. So Ultramarine would describe themself as the best of the best, while other chapter/legion don't make such claim. Salamanders are happy to be good craftmans and good in close quarter combat with flamer, while Imperial Fist would pride themself with their skill at enduring long lasting siege. Ultramarine are basicly saying that they won't stop until they are the best of the best. I mean, it's not because in the Grots entry of the codex (ficticious) they claim to be the smartest of the galaxy that it's actually true (well true in a sense that it's all a fictional world anyway lol).

Ward didn't invent Ultramarine sueism. It was always there. Read some of the codices prior to Ward's.

Selym,
We both know if the Ultramarines had to be rescued by another faction they would just blame the loss on that factions interference.

 PandaHero wrote:
I imagine that the lore says that about every factions. But, I've never encounter a Ultramarine player who says there better than every other legion lol.

And I also though that codex lore about chapter was written by a POV of the actual chapter. So Ultramarine would describe themself as the best of the best, while other chapter/legion don't make such claim. Salamanders are happy to be good craftmans and good in close quarter combat with flamer, while Imperial Fist would pride themself with their skill at enduring long lasting siege. Ultramarine are basicly saying that they won't stop until they are the best of the best. I mean, it's not because in the Grots entry of the codex (ficticious) they claim to be the smartest of the galaxy that it's actually true (well true in a sense that it's all a fictional world anyway lol).

The BA and GK codexes claimed that the BA and GK wanted to be UM, or at least, aspire to be more like them (following the codex etc). If that were the case, they wouldn't need separate codexes.
The BT written work has recently moved more towards being UM wannabes.

And I feel there are more, but I need to do some digging for that.

I've never encountered an UM player who wasn't a dick about the UM fluff. It's one of the reasons I hate them so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Selym,
We both know if the Ultramarines had to be rescued by another faction they would just blame the loss on that factions interference.

lol true

whoever asked for page number is an idiot.
just read the fith edition codex realease intervieiw with whit dwarf and it all becomes clear...

 hanshotfirst wrote:
whoever asked for page number is an idiot.
just read the fith edition codex realease intervieiw with whit dwarf and it all becomes clear...

It's not 5th edition anymore, that Codex is no longer current fluff, Matt Ward doesn't work for GW anymore, just stop already this meme was tired five years ago.

yes but read the 6th edition codex realese interview with robin crudface.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but read the 6th edition codex realese interview with robin crudface.

It's 7th edition now. 7th. I don't care what Robin Cruddace said or what Matt Ward said or what Andy Chambers said. Why must you belittle people's names like that? What are you, 12?

Since there is one, let's go by the 7E codex...

 j31c3n wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but read the 6th edition codex realese interview with robin crudface.

It's 7th edition now. 7th. I don't care what Robin Cruddace said or what Matt Ward said or what Andy Chambers said. Why must you belittle people's names like that? What are you, 12?

Try reading it. It is yet another bundle of "Ooohhh the Ultramarines are sooo good and they are perfect and never lose at anything and all the other marines want to be them and suck them off and have their love children"

Seriously. It is sickening.

Selym,
I don't know about GK or BT, but I though BA wanted to be more like UM (following the codex astarte) in order to see if it's help with the plague that is afflicting their chapter. aka being more by the book in order to control the anomaly. When I read their codex, it doesn't seem to me like they are UM wannabe because they think UM are better or whatever.

Let's look at some 7E C:SM highlights, shall we?

Cato Sicarius (Page 116): "Cato Sicarius is the undisputed master of the lightning assault" "He leads the 2nd company to victory as easily as he overcomes every other obstacle"

Librarian Tigurius (Page 117): "The Ultramarines' Chief Librarian is amongst the greatest psykers in the Imperium" "his merest hunch is often worth more than the predictions of a battalion of strategists"

Scout Sgt Telion (Page 119): "Telion's skills as a mentor are such that he can coax greatness from even the rawest recruit, guiding their aim and leading them to victory no matter the odds"

Everything about Calgar (Page 173)

Page 16, in reference to the UM special characters: "All of these names are synonymous with nobility, courage and glory"

Page 16, in reference to UM successors: "each one strives always to live up to the example of their genetic forebears"

Page 19, in reference to the Ultramar empire, itself an example: "Ultramarines rule so efficiently and are so prosperous that they maintain several hundred well-trained auxillia regiments"

*takes a break to look at the BT fluff, where it reads: "Thus his chapter has ever been divergent from Guilliman's codex, a trait that has become more pronounced as the millennia have ground past".*

*realizes this was a disparaging comment, not a note of their style*

I haven't time to trawl through the codex word-by-word, but this should stoke the fires of argument for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 39: "but with each component of the strike force working in perfect concert, the Ultramarines were able to purge the world of its xenos invaders."

And they all lived happily ever after.

Almost every special character in the setting is described as the best at what they do. No one wants to take Captain Jimbo the Alright.

And what I read from all your quote (except maybe the firs one) is: I'm super good at what I do.

I mean... like exactly 10000% of all the lore of every character in the history of 40k. Would you play: Joe Blow the Insignificant, the guy who deliver milk successfully at least once in his life?

Actually... Yes.
When Joe the Blow successfully delivers that Milk on Turn 3, it would be far greater an achievement knowing he was over-coming something in order to do so!

Great, now I want to model Space Marines as milkmen.....

the problem with smurfs is that they are mary sues.

Well good news, the Imperial guard is recruiting! Step right uo and join the proud ranks of Joe Blow: The faction

games workshop also blatantly favors them.
they have OVER 9000 special characters
while the ironhands are still waiting for, you know... 1 character
and they say "all other space marines strive to be ultrasmurfs"

Ironhands are busy being emo and cutting themself apart. sorry

 Grey Templar wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
See the HH - Ultramarines are cool in 007M31.

I don't know. The HH books did a pretty good job of making them colossal donkey caves. So much that even Sicarus would have blushed.

Really? Have you read Know No Fear? I didn't get that impression in the slightest.

I think a lot of UM hatred is created by the community. We've gone two edition and five years since Ward, yet people still blame him.
UM, BA, DA, and SW have always been the main four, as admitted by Jervis Johnson before the codexes were even split. So why do people complain when UM get more than other codex adherants? They have always been regarded in a better light. If Iron Hands or Raven Guard had been chosen instead, would that have been better? No. It so happens that UM were chosen for that role.

They don't need an overwhelming flaw. Their flaw was that they were so reliant on the codex that when the Tyranids came (and subsequently, Necrons) they were caught unprepared by the newly found tactics and enemies. They show Character Development by breaking their own rules to adapt from their prideful ways. Not many other Chapters have shown character development in this way. Besides, isn't being seen as arrogant dicks a character flaw in it's own right, making them NOT mary sues?

In response to saying the UM need events that make them worthy of being a respected version, how about all the battles which are won (which people complain about, as the UM win), or the reduction of Chaos as a threat by reducing the size of Astartes force any Chapter Master can hold, thus lowering the risk of a Legion-sized threat ever occuring.

I don't claim the UM are the best. I claim that they are the most well-balanced Chapter, a figure by which other Chapters are judged by. After all, someone has to be vanilla, and it certainly isn't filled by any of the other First Founders. They quite literally are a jack of all trades for modern 40k, which isn't in any way bad for me. No overwhelming traits, no WolfyWolfWolf or BloodyBloodBlood or SUPASECRETSECRETS. (On the subject of the Wolves, they seem to show far more Mary Suedom than the Smurfs, yet aren't hated anywhere NEAR as much. I'd actually appreciate an actual response for this, I'm genuinely curious.)
I'm not really thinking straight right now, but I think this gets across my ideas.

Give them a logo that doesn't look like a toilet-seat.

Decide on either a Roman or Greek inspired style, and bring it out. Like, crazy out.

Also, the new boarding shield wielding Horus Heresy guys are a great start. Those wing faced helmets- oh my.

 PandaHero wrote:
And what I read from all your quote (except maybe the firs one) is: I'm super good at what I do.

I mean... like exactly 10000% of all the lore of every character in the history of 40k. Would you play: Joe Blow the Insignificant, the guy who deliver milk successfully at least once in his life?

Joe the Insignificant is the premise of the entire IG army.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
the problem with smurfs is that they are mary sues.

Literally all Space Marine characters are Marty Stus. They're all unstoppable action juggernauts that effortlessly destroy everything placed in front of them. They have no flaws, and when they do, they don't stop them (see: Blood Angels). The only thing they don't have that most Marty Stus do is sex appeal, but Space Marines (with the possible exception of Space Wolves) are heavily hinted to be basically sterile, impotent, and largely asexual.

Complaining that the Ultramarines are Marty Stus is ridiculous because that's true of every Astartes with a name. The only ones that ever die are the SM equivalent of red or mauve shirts.

Indeed. There's nothing particularly OTT about the UM that the SW aren't already doing five times over.

 Psienesis wrote:
Indeed. There's nothing particularly OTT about the UM that the SW aren't already doing five times over.

If anything, from a story perspective, the Traitor Marines are way bigger Marty Stus than the Loyalists. The majority of their characters pre-date the Heresy and are still alive after 10,000 years of warfare against the Imperium, daemons, and rival legions. What? I know Kharn is amazing but it's really unlikely that he hasn't been hit by artillery in the past 10 millenia.

Honestly while I make Matt Ward jokes despite having started the game long after he left, it's silly to genuinely hold that against the Smurfs.
Honestly as I'm glad that some here have mentioned, if any one Chapter is a Mary Sue one, it's the Space Wolves. Which legitimately does piss me off, people hate the Ultramarines for being Mary Sue-ish, but they love the Space Furries for the same thing?! That's just massively hypocritical.
Honestly as mentioned I just find the Ultrasmurfs boring more than anything else, and I actually the same feeling towards the Imperial Fists (You know you're boring when one of your Successors is more interesting than you are ) and nobody gets on their case for it.
The only Loyal Chapters I truly hate are the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Red Scorpions.

guys in the codex chapter tactics description of the smurfs it says none cqn match there skill with bolter or blade

 hanshotfirst wrote:
guys in the codex chapter tactics description of the smurfs it says none cqn match there skill with bolter or blade

That's hyperbolic fluff text. Do you believe that Space Marines truly and literally "know no fear" as well? Y'all're taking this stuff way too literally because you want to hate the Ultramarines. Furthermore, it actually says:

"The Ultramarines epitomise adherence to the Codex Astartes, and their methods present a proud example to their many successor chapters. Whether laying down disciplined bolter fire, charging the foe with chainswords roaring, or pounding them into submission with heavy weapons, none can match the Ultramarines' skill."

Then on the next page, it says of the Imperial Fists:

"With a reputation for excelling in siegecraft, the Imperial Fists and their successors are experts with heavy weapons and bolt weaponry. No foe can stand against their firepower, nor drive them back once their feet are planted."

So which is the best with a bolter? The chapter that can sometimes reroll 1s when shooting bolters or the chapter who can always reroll 1s when shooting bolters? I'd say the Imperial Fists, but you probably want to take "none can match the Ultramarines' skill" literally and at face value, so I bet you'll say Ultramarines to justify your nonsensical hatred.

i am not well versed in furries in sphesss so i dont know if there mary sues.
but guys if you like smurfs go somewhere else. please. i didnt make this with the intention of skub. so please dont go argue and argue somewhere else. if you actually want to say something that you think could make the smurfs cool though then say it

Smurfs ARE cool. To a select few.
My solution to making them more widely accessible: get rid of the vitriolic hatred around them! Too many people have such a knee-jerk reaction to them because of things they read here, on 1d4chan or just in person, without even reading their more recent fluff. Sure, people may dislike their by-the-book, paragon nature: fine. You can't make them perfect, it won't happen. Those people can get their fill of Sue-ism from the Space Wolves, a rogueish, gregarious, loose and wild Chapter who are pretty much the polar opposites of the Smurfs. Both are Sues; it's just that Wolves are regarded as better because REASONS.
All it takes is people to actually take a bit of time and read the fluff with a more open mind and make their own mind up.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
ibut guys if you like smurfs go somewhere else. please. i didnt make this with the intention of skub

Too bad, you opened a can of it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Smurfs ARE cool. To a select few.
My solution to making them more widely accessible: get rid of the vitriolic hatred around them! Too many people have such a knee-jerk reaction to them because of things they read here, on 1d4chan or just in person, without even reading their more recent fluff. Sure, people may dislike their by-the-book, paragon nature: fine. You can't make them perfect, it won't happen. Those people can get their fill of Sue-ism from the Space Wolves, a rogueish, gregarious, loose and wild Chapter who are pretty much the polar opposites of the Smurfs. Both are Sues; it's just that Wolves are regarded as better because REASONS.
All it takes is people to actually take a bit of time and read the fluff with a more open mind and make their own mind up.

This guy knows what's up. There hasn't been anything wrong with the Ultramarines since 5th and the days of the 'spiritual liege' nonsense. That's in the past and anyone who is still clinging to it, like I said in my first post on this thread, is either nursing a severe case of butthurt or they're trying to earn internet edgemaster points.

Wound Sicarius enough to put him in a Dread and Kill of Chronus

Make them more roman legionnare like, those new suzerain models look amazing

Show a bit more of Cassius, Agemann and Calgars arguments and disagreements, those three would clearly be at loggerheads all day

While it's been toned down to some degree in Codex: Space Marines, the Dark Millennium section of the BRB still portrays Ultramarines as the poster boys which all other Astartes fervently wish to emulate.

Here is an idea, stop making everything about them? Look at the new codex, every chapter has a double page of lore, Ultramarine have 4, every chapter has a double page of showing off their models, Ultramarine have 8, every chapter has at least 1 character in the codex (except Iron hands cause screw them apparently and Black Templars who have 3) Ultramarines have 6. Every single picture that shows models in their entries are Ultramarine (except for characters). Every cover since as long as I can remember is ultramarines. Seriously...just push them out of the spotlight, they have had it way too long and received the most characters out of ALL of the Chapters.

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
Here is an idea, stop making everything about them? Look at the new codex, every chapter has a double page of lore, Ultramarine have 4, every chapter has a double page of showing off their models, Ultramarine have 8, every chapter has at least 1 character in the codex (except Iron hands cause screw them apparently and Black Templars who have 3) Ultramarines have 6. Every single picture that shows models in their entries are Ultramarine (except for characters). Every cover since as long as I can remember is ultramarines. Seriously...just push them out of the spotlight, they have had it way too long and received the most characters out of ALL of the Chapters.

Have an exalt, Salamander

Also keep in mind that Black Templars only have as many characters as they do because they used to be their own Codex.

So we don't complain when everything is T'au sept of Tau Fire Warriors, or Sauhtek Dynasty of Necrons?
It's a colour scheme that happens to be the most used. It makes sense that GW would use a Chapter that is so well recognised amongst the player base, plus they reuse most of the models in their pictures anyway. Sure, I'd love to see a full battle company of Howling Griffons or Lamenters, but it's just not feasible to do it for every Chapter.
I can't forgive the wealth of fluff the UM have which other chapters get, and wholeheartedly agree that we should get more fluff for the other first founders at least. That said, I would get rid of Chronus and Telion in a heartbeat and replace them with generic Scout Captain/Tank Commander units instead, and add to the Agemann vs Sicarius issue too. It's a really nice plot hook!

In fairness the other septs of the tau or necron dynasties don't exactly have the same wealth of background built up from 2nd edition

Especially since chapter tactics i think they should give equal attention to all the seperate main chapters and then have some extra written about the ultramarines successors since it is a note worthy fact that they make up most marines now

yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.
also its feasible that other septs adopted that colour scheme because the tau chang colors


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.
also its feasible that other septs adopted that colour scheme because the tau chang colors

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.
also its feasible that other septs adopted that colour scheme because the tau chang colors


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.
also its feasible that other septs adopted that colour scheme because the tau chang colors

You're assumptions are mostly off base, you're reasoning behind hating the face of an entire faction is largely anecdotal, and you're arguments defending those reasonings are mostly simply hand waving and ignoring the thoughts of those who disagree.

You have repeated this thread is about making the Utlramarines "cool again" not about why they are percieved a certain way, yet post only to defend your thoughts on why you don't think they are "cool".

I realize you think it's cool to bash them right now, but if you're going to insist on others posting a certain way then you should at least try to as well. I'd also like you to answer to individuals in this thread who bring up points about looking at the Ultramarines in the light of the 7th edition codex, as that is where the current fluff stands. Does the 7th codex say anything about a spiritual liege? Does it say all marines venerate Guilliman? No? Then we aren't talking about it.

You want suggestions to make them cool again, then you need to respond to the suggestions. By your reasoning they can never be cool again because at one point one of the pieces of fluff regarded them as best, no matter what they change to them. They will always have that dark past where they were called the best.

Hate them if you want, but don't make a thread pretending to want to like them again, which at this point I'm not convinced you even ever have.

All they need is a slight aesthetic change and I think they are golden.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.

This has literally never been said about the Ultramarines, not even in 5th edition. It's become abundantly clear that you made this thread with the sole purpose of gaining internet edginess points for bashing on the most popular chapter of marines.

Yes. we know. The Ultramarines have a lot of characters, maybe too much. They get a lot of fluff attention and art, and lots of pictures of their heraldry on model boxes. We are aware. That doesn't mean they suck and we should just pour criticism on them. Someone has to be the marketing face of the Space Marines and I can't think of a better chapter, except possibly the Imperial Fists - but yellow is a less popular color than blue, so there you go.

 j31c3n wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.

This has literally never been said about the Ultramarines, not even in 5th edition. It's become abundantly clear that you made this thread with the sole purpose of gaining internet edginess points for bashing on the most popular chapter of marines.

Yes. we know. The Ultramarines have a lot of characters, maybe too much. They get a lot of fluff attention and art, and lots of pictures of their heraldry on model boxes. We are aware. That doesn't mean they suck and we should just pour criticism on them. Someone has to be the marketing face of the Space Marines and I can't think of a better chapter, except possibly the Imperial Fists - but yellow is a less popular color than blue, so there you go.

I never said they suck and I understand someone has to be the face of it, but what I am saying is give someone else a turn, Ultramarines have had it for too long.

I never said you said they sucked.

Who else would be the face of the relatively Codex-compliant chapters? Literally the only others I can think of are the Imperial Fists or the Crimson Fists. Imperial Fists are yellow which wouldn't drive sales and the Crimson Fists aren't part of the original Legions. The other options (White Scars, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard) are too weird.

EDIT: Ninja'd

What about the Salamanders?

From a Narrative point of view this has always been the most approachable of all the Space Marine chapters, in my opinion, as they 'retain more of their humanity' as the Codex put it. They have a strong reputation of actually caring for the humans they are protecting, instead of it always being about some Duty or Honour. As one of the founding legions that has cemented not just their Loyalty, but have managed to prove just how much they are willing to sacrifice in order to defend humanity as a whole time and time again, they are above reproach. There also exists enough lore surrounding this chapter, including even the "all mighty" Guilliman relenting to Vulkan and allowing the Salamanders to remain undivided unlike other chapters, that they won't be boring to flesh out even further.

Now lets look at marketing:
They keep their Armour and Weapons in far better shape then any other Chapter, which is often represented by them having far more detailed work on the finished models. This extra detail can be highlighted in all sorts of promotional works, not just splashed across Codex's, and further encourage people to purchase more paints and 'bling' in order to match. Their colours are primarily greens, which is a shade many people in the modern world think on when they are picturing the military, so there is no concern about it being too 'outlandish' to look good splashed across said promotional material. Even the fire motif is something that can be exploited by marketing quite easily, there is a reason why it is a popular motif.

One of the reasons Ultras are uncool is that they Are boring.

-Everyone else has had a notable failure. The UM don't have that. If an Ultramarine is present in a work of 40k fiction produced by GW or the Black Library, they will always win. There is never any chance of them losing. It's like trying to come up with an interesting Superman story, but every time you think there's finally a way for them to fail, they suddenly have a new excuse as to why that does not matter.

-There's no variation. Most races in 40k have variation. And several SM chapters have variation. As Jinx pointed out above, the Salamanders have personal gear and bling. The Templars have heraldry splatted across everything. Xenos races have unit variation, and the IG often find themselves in a puddle of anachronism stew. The UM are thus: Faceless blue humanoid ceramite in a faceless blue methul bawks, among an army of exactly the same kind of faceless blue methul bawks, some with sticks coming out f them for guns, in what must be the least imaginative effort at creating "new vehicles". Everything about them looks exactly the same.

Yeah, I would love for the Sallies to become the face of Space Marines. They're the first chapter I played, way back when in the Armageddon campaign when they were I3 for no good reason. They're heroic and personable, they care about the people, they're real stand-up guys.

But they're got that whole 'skin black as pitch and eyes like two burning embers' thing going on. I love it, personally, but I can't see it selling models like the helmetless Ultramarine characters.

I would like to say all sorts of derogatory things about people who judge on nothing but skin colour, but admit that it probably is a concern for marketing because... those people still do exist and Game Workshop wants their money.
Personally, **** them, we shouldn't be bending over to make that sort of person more comfortable and should actually relish in making them as uncomfortable as possible!

Besides, with 95% of the models shown wearing helmets, would many new-comers really notice?

It'd be easier to paint though

JinxDragon wrote:
I would like to say all sorts of derogatory things about people who put skin colour first, but admit that it probably is a concern for marketing because... those people still do exist.
Personally, I say feth them!

I agree 100% but that's just the sad fact. GW is an English company and in England there is not an awful lot of ethnic diversity, that's why the vast majority of human and Astartes characters in the fluff are, well, white.

 j31c3n wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I would like to say all sorts of derogatory things about people who put skin colour first, but admit that it probably is a concern for marketing because... those people still do exist.
Personally, I say feth them!

I agree 100% but that's just the sad fact. GW is an English company and in England there is not an awful lot of ethnic diversity, that's why the vast majority of human and Astartes characters in the fluff are, well, white.

Or assumed white. Some never really get specified.

And then you get the Tallarn:



Whiteboy Desert Raiders.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Sure, people may dislike their by-the-book, paragon nature: fine. Those people can get their fill of Sue-ism from the Space Wolves, a rogueish, gregarious, loose and wild Chapter who are pretty much the polar opposites of the Smurfs. Both are Sues; it's just that Wolves are regarded as better because REASONS.

The reason is probably that younger players are kids/teens and most of us oldtimers work for a living. Rules suck, the boss sucks and not having enough free time sucks. Cheering on the Space Wolves is sticking it to The Man in a sort-of wish fulfillment. Ultramarines are just as boring as going to school or work and performing as well as you can.

 j31c3n wrote:
But they're got that whole 'skin black as pitch and eyes like two burning embers' thing going on. I love it, personally, but I can't see it selling models like the helmetless Ultramarine characters.

And a lot of people have issues regarding alleged racism because of that, and GW probably wouldn't want to kick up that storm.

This BTW is why I was put off collecting Salamanders when I first started, I didn't want to be accused of that stuff, it was bad enough when I thought I was tricked into buying racist paint.

Spetulhu wrote:
Ultramarines are just as boring as going to school or work and performing as well as you can.

Now I imagining Marneus Calgar on the battlefield behaving like Hank Hill. A single bolter shell discharges from the Gauntlets of Ultramar. Calgar turns to Sicarius and says, "Why would anyone turn to heresy when they could just purge the alien?" He looks so happy he could cry.

 j31c3n wrote:

I agree 100% but that's just the sad fact. GW is an English company and in England there is not an awful lot of ethnic diversity, that's why the vast majority of human and Astartes characters in the fluff are, well, white.

Actually it depends where you are and I speak from experience.

I like where this conversation is going...woohoo raise the roof!

 Selym wrote:
One of the reasons Ultras are uncool is that they Are boring.

-Everyone else has had a notable failure. The UM don't have that. If an Ultramarine is present in a work of 40k fiction produced by GW or the Black Library, they will always win. There is never any chance of them losing. It's like trying to come up with an interesting Superman story, but every time you think there's finally a way for them to fail, they suddenly have a new excuse as to why that does not matter.

-There's no variation. Most races in 40k have variation. And several SM chapters have variation. As Jinx pointed out above, the Salamanders have personal gear and bling. The Templars have heraldry splatted across everything. Xenos races have unit variation, and the IG often find themselves in a puddle of anachronism stew. The UM are thus: Faceless blue humanoid ceramite in a faceless blue methul bawks, among an army of exactly the same kind of faceless blue methul bawks, some with sticks coming out f them for guns, in what must be the least imaginative effort at creating "new vehicles". Everything about them looks exactly the same.

They do have flaws, they're far too adherent to the Codex Astartes for example. The trouble is that the novels are never written that way. But that's a flaw of the authors. And they have as much variation as any of the other codex chapters. Blood Angels and Dark Angels have more because they have their own model ranges, but tac marines and vehicles have as much variation whether they're painted as salamanders, or Imperial Fists, or Ultramarines. Ultramarines have heraldry and bling, look at the Honour Guard with Calgar, or the Suzerians that have just come out if we're counting the HH.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Selym wrote:
One of the reasons Ultras are uncool is that they Are boring.

-Everyone else has had a notable failure. The UM don't have that. If an Ultramarine is present in a work of 40k fiction produced by GW or the Black Library, they will always win. There is never any chance of them losing. It's like trying to come up with an interesting Superman story, but every time you think there's finally a way for them to fail, they suddenly have a new excuse as to why that does not matter.

-There's no variation. Most races in 40k have variation. And several SM chapters have variation. As Jinx pointed out above, the Salamanders have personal gear and bling. The Templars have heraldry splatted across everything. Xenos races have unit variation, and the IG often find themselves in a puddle of anachronism stew. The UM are thus: Faceless blue humanoid ceramite in a faceless blue methul bawks, among an army of exactly the same kind of faceless blue methul bawks, some with sticks coming out f them for guns, in what must be the least imaginative effort at creating "new vehicles". Everything about them looks exactly the same.

They do have flaws, they're far too adherent to the Codex Astartes for example. The trouble is that the novels are never written that way. But that's a flaw of the authors. And they have as much variation as any of the other codex chapters. Blood Angels and Dark Angels have more because they have their own model ranges, but tac marines and vehicles have as much variation whether they're painted as salamanders, or Imperial Fists, or Ultramarines. Ultramarines have heraldry and bling, look at the Honour Guard with Calgar, or the Suzerians that have just come out if we're counting the HH.

Being too adherent to the codex is a weird flaw. The Codex is purported to be the best tactical/strategic doctrine ever made, and is supposedly what makes the UM so good at everything. It's almost the same level of flaw as "They're too arrogant", or "they're a funny colour".

One of my pet peeves with UM is that stuff like Honour Guard, in spite of allegedly being available to every chapter are only available with Calgar and with big U's all over them. It makes it feel like, even though it says Codex: Space Marines on the cover, it is still just Codex: Ultramarines.

Honour Guard is really a very personal unit, making one for each chapter would be very difficult

Seriously though as far as good exemplars of what the space marines are supposed to be Salamanders and Crimson Fists are probably top two, both have been through serious harm and come out stronger and both have done a lot to try and save even the smallest bit of humanity

They should make a non-Chapter specific Honour Guard, but for now, Sternguard and Vanguard kits have so much detail and so many spare parts that people can make really good Honour Guard models without relying on the single box of UM honour guard. Hell, I added to my existing UM honour guard this way because I didn't want to see duplicate models! Plus, the forge world stuff is pretty awesome looking.

SM are meant to be super macho, uncaring post-humans. I'm not sure kids like their supermen to care about the little guys, just the killing of gribbly aliens. But Salamanders would be an interesting poster boy, until they start becoming hated for the same reasons UM are.

As for being codex-adherant, it is a fairly big flaw when you consider that it severely limits the adaptation of combat tactics to face new xenos. Plus, it shows how far the UM have bastardised Guilliman's intention for the Codex to NOT be a replacement to personal thinking! Just because their flaw isn't whacked over your head so often doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Besides, if we're looking for flaws, what flaw do the Fists have? Very stubborn? Brilliant at sieges and protracted conflict.
Wolves? Incompatible geneseed? Oversized chapter.
Blood Angels? Mental instability? Superpowered Marines.

Many Chapter's flaws are also their greatest strengths. This is the same with the UM.

GAdvance wrote:
Honour Guard is really a very personal unit, making one for each chapter would be very difficult

Seriously though as far as good exemplars of what the space marines are supposed to be Salamanders and Crimson Fists are probably top two, both have been through serious harm and come out stronger and both have done a lot to try and save even the smallest bit of humanity

And then you get the Templars, who get lumped in with the rest despite not having second thoughts about killing off whole regiments of IG, just because they got in the way of the crusade


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But Salamanders would be an interesting poster boy, until they start becoming hated for the same reasons UM are.

Make all marines the GW poster boy. On one thing, the Salamanders, on the next the Templars, the next the Crimson Fists, the next...
Have all the notable chapters on some sort of rotary basis. C:SM is not just about one chapter, it's about hundreds of chapters.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Besides, if we're looking for flaws, what flaw do the Fists have? Very stubborn? Brilliant at sieges and protracted conflict.
Stubborn is a plus. Flaw: Overly competitive, don't know when they've gone too far. Liable to get others killed just because they couldn't stand the thought of pulling out.

Wolves? Incompatible geneseed? Oversized chapter.
Furries. Erm... You got me there. Ooh! Some of them get turned into actual wolves, which then... get ridden on in battle... *facepalm*

Blood Angels? Mental instability? Superpowered Marines.
Spehs Vampires. I hate them as much as the Ultras, but for different reasons. You forgot: Pretty boys, bestest at melee. Have fast HS vehicles for no reason.

Many Chapter's flaws are also their greatest strengths.
Superhumans are too easy to turn into mary sues, but some manage not to.

This is the same moreso with the UM.

I really wish GW would produce upgrade kits for other chapters. That would solve the whole Honor Guard issue for me. The Crimson Fists finecast upgrade kits don't really take care of the problem. Never mind the fact other chapters are left out in the rain. I made my current Honor Guard using a combination of Sterguard and Vanguard bits, but they still aren't as cool looking as the UM HG. And if a UM player wants to make a custom HG, they can use that sweet new Upgrade Kit as a basis.

 Selym wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Besides, if we're looking for flaws, what flaw do the Fists have? Very stubborn? Brilliant at sieges and protracted conflict.
Stubborn is a plus. Flaw: Overly competitive, don't know when they've gone too far. Liable to get others killed just because they couldn't stand the thought of pulling out.So, stubbornness. Too stubborn to give up.

Wolves? Incompatible geneseed? Oversized chapter.
Furries Okay, you got me there.
Erm... You got me there. Ooh! Some of them get turned into actual wolves, which then... get ridden on in battle... *facepalm*[/color]
Wait, Thunderwolves ARE ex-Space Wolves? Hang on, I gotta see this! Still, as a plus, Space Wolves then get mounts?

Blood Angels? Mental instability? Superpowered Marines.
Spehs Vampires. I hate them as much as the Ultras, but for different reasons. You forgot: Pretty boys, bestest at melee. Have fast HS vehicles for no reason.
Yeah, can't really add to that...

Many Chapter's flaws are also their greatest strengths.
Superhumans are too easy to turn into mary sues, but some manage not to.As a general statement, Space Marines are Mary Sues. Just some are less Mary Sue than others.

This is the same moreso with the UM.I don't know, they don't have a crippling flaw, but it is still fairly significant, especially if GW advanced their storyline and involved some issues between What Guilliman intended vs What the UM are now, or facing another new enemy which would throw the Codex out of the window for them?

Regarding Codex vs Guilliman:

GW will never let that happen. The codex tends to be written like it covers all possibilities, unless a non-adherent chapter comments on it.

salamanders would be a nice face of the army. i dont think there skin color would make much of a differnece (exept for douchbags)


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they should make a generic honour gaurd kit and make moar upgrade packs so you could buy you honour gaurd and then buy you upgrade pack for specific chapter

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

And a lot of people have issues regarding alleged racism because of that, and GW probably wouldn't want to kick up that storm.

This BTW is why I was put off collecting Salamanders when I first started, I didn't want to be accused of that stuff, it was bad enough when I thought I was tricked into buying racist paint.

Normally I would agree. Regardless of actual effects on sales, kicking the hornet's nest of identity politics is almost invariably a PR nightmare. This, however, is one of those few occasions when GW's abject refusal to perform market interaction is beneficial. If they won't listen to their fanbase, they aren't going to pay heed to a mob of screeching offendatrons, especially when this latter group is made up primarily of those who don't consume their products.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
But they're got that whole 'skin black as pitch and eyes like two burning embers' thing going on. I love it, personally, but I can't see it selling models like the helmetless Ultramarine characters.

And a lot of people have issues regarding alleged racism because of that, and GW probably wouldn't want to kick up that storm.

This BTW is why I was put off collecting Salamanders when I first started, I didn't want to be accused of that stuff, it was bad enough when I thought I was tricked into buying racist paint.

Meh forget them if they accuse you, I paint my Salamanders to be African American 1. for Ethnic diversity and 2. It is hilarious for My Opponent and I to see a army of Black guys with flamethrowers fight aliens.

Now now, they are native to Nocturne and not African Americans.

Joking aside, I really don't understand the why painting your Models something other then your own skin tone would indicates racism. From my understanding of people who believe that skin-tone is a mark of worth, it would seem as if the exact opposite would be a better measuring stick. When faced with a Chapter that has Narrative reasoning for such a dark skin tone, and only those tones, these would be the players who paint them as Caucasians or simply out-right refuse to even admit they exist. Those players fielding an army with any deviation from their own skin-tones are, more likely, to be the exact opposite of racists. Of course, they could be making fun of stereotypes by blowing them right out of proportion for a laugh, and ... I'm actually fine with that, laughter is a universal language capable of bringing even enemies together.

PS:
Just noticed your from my home country and have to ask - What do you think about the recent KFC advertisements?

Dont think I have seen them...are they stereotyping?

Yes, and I honestly do not know how to feel about it in this case:
As the great George Carlin pointed out, and many comedians before and since, you can make fun of anything... as long as you blow it so far out of proportion it is impossible to take seriously. Take your icon for example, the god rays and the 'I'm going to get me some of that' posture adds an over-the-top element that does cause a slight giggle. Sure you might feel a little bad afterwards for having giggled at a stereotype, but there was a moment where you needed to face-palm as you did find some sort of humour within it. That makes it impossible to look at your icon and take it as a serious racist statement... it is clearly a jest.

Worse: If you imagine that bucket as one of the long lost relics trying to be recovered, to be placed on a pedestal where all the people of Nocturne can be awestruck by it, it takes an even deeper level of comedy... yes, I am a bad person.

The KFC advertisement failed big time in that one regard; they where so subtle that I wonder if they even knew they where living up to a stereotype, let alone making fun of one. It feels as if they blundered into the whole 'is it Racism' question by pure accident, it was not over-the-top enough for me to find something funny within and I laughed at your icon. Almost as if someone in the marketing firm thought making everyone of African decent while playing loud Caribbean music was the only way to show that they where West-Indies fans. They where so focused on the "bringing fan's from two opposing sport teams together" element that they didn't even realize what they where doing....

Oh well, back on topic:
So how about those Salamanders?

 Selym wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Selym wrote:
One of the reasons Ultras are uncool is that they Are boring.

-Everyone else has had a notable failure. The UM don't have that. If an Ultramarine is present in a work of 40k fiction produced by GW or the Black Library, they will always win. There is never any chance of them losing. It's like trying to come up with an interesting Superman story, but every time you think there's finally a way for them to fail, they suddenly have a new excuse as to why that does not matter.

-There's no variation. Most races in 40k have variation. And several SM chapters have variation. As Jinx pointed out above, the Salamanders have personal gear and bling. The Templars have heraldry splatted across everything. Xenos races have unit variation, and the IG often find themselves in a puddle of anachronism stew. The UM are thus: Faceless blue humanoid ceramite in a faceless blue methul bawks, among an army of exactly the same kind of faceless blue methul bawks, some with sticks coming out f them for guns, in what must be the least imaginative effort at creating "new vehicles". Everything about them looks exactly the same.

They do have flaws, they're far too adherent to the Codex Astartes for example. The trouble is that the novels are never written that way. But that's a flaw of the authors. And they have as much variation as any of the other codex chapters. Blood Angels and Dark Angels have more because they have their own model ranges, but tac marines and vehicles have as much variation whether they're painted as salamanders, or Imperial Fists, or Ultramarines. Ultramarines have heraldry and bling, look at the Honour Guard with Calgar, or the Suzerians that have just come out if we're counting the HH.

Being too adherent to the codex is a weird flaw. The Codex is purported to be the best tactical/strategic doctrine ever made, and is supposedly what makes the UM so good at everything. It's almost the same level of flaw as "They're too arrogant", or "they're a funny colour".

It's not. The Codex is the best tactical doctrine ever made, but Guilliman only ever intended for it to be guidelines. The UM now treat it like gospel, which makes them more inflexible than chapters who know when to stop following it. So the flaw really is relative inflexibility.

 Selym wrote:

 PandaHero wrote:
And what I read from all your quote (except maybe the firs one) is: I'm super good at what I do.

I mean... like exactly 10000% of all the lore of every character in the history of 40k. Would you play: Joe Blow the Insignificant, the guy who deliver milk successfully at least once in his life?

Joe the Insignificant is the premise of the entire IG army.

I though that books/lore of IG were more focus on either great general or the campaign itself, where SM in general are more character centric, people self-accomplishment is important in a SM force. Maybe I'm wrong, but the Joe Blow example I used was to express that no one would read a full SM books that talk about someone being a nobody. You either have books about great people, or great deeds. It would be very strange to read a SM books where Chapter X is like: Man.. we ain't good at doing stuff...

I'd read the gak out of that.

Ok... so maybe not "no one". But it wouldn't be a hit. If Dakka all tell me it would, well I guess I should be sitting at my desk writting a book.

Make a poll called: "Would you read a story about Space Marines who fail constantly?"

Word that way, I'm sure people would read it. Because it would be a comedy.

To reflect what I was trying to get accross, the poll should be: Would you read a story about an uniteresting Space Marines Chapter who achieve nothing, and aren't particularly good at what they do?

Not sure if its been said but how about stop painting and displaying every single space marine unit in ultramarine colours on the games workshop web store.....seriously it makes their colour scheme seem incredibly bland and suggests that ultramarines are common and cheap space marines.

What a difference and sigh of relief it is when you spot even just one marine unit in different colours on the website.... just take the spot light off ultras ffs!

@Panda:
Yes. Get it published by BL, so that I can call it cannon.

I would quote it on a daily basis.

 Ustis wrote:
Not sure if its been said but how about stop painting and displaying every single space marine unit in ultramarine colours on the games workshop web store.....seriously it makes their colour scheme seem incredibly bland and suggests that ultramarines are common and cheap space marines.

What a difference and sigh of relief it is when you spot even just one marine unit in different colours on the website.... just take the spot light off ultras ffs!

The ideal outcome in my opinion would be to use a variety of chapters for the unit photographs. Tactical Squads could remain Ultramarines. Predators would be painted as Iron Hands, and the Rhino as Ultramarines again. Imperial Fists would work well for Centurions and Vindicators. Salamanders could work for the Salamanders. Raven Guard for assault/jump units. Bike units as White Scars. Black Templars as their unique units.

As I'm sure you've guessed, units that fit best with that Chapter's theme would be painted in the corresponding colors. This list is far from complete, and I'm sure refinement could be done.

 Selym wrote:
Make a poll called: "Would you read a story about Space Marines who fail constantly?"

I thought that was the story of the Soul Drinkers. I love the Soul Drinkers, but I also love a good tragedy.

they dont fail THAT much.
what about um...
no. they fail at everything.

 kronk wrote:


Ultramarines have an excellent Chapter Tactic, possibly the best in the book. Combine that with the benefits of a Battle Company, and you are going to have a hard fight on your hands.

This

I play Sons of Antaeus, one of the old Cursed Founding Chapters, and presently I use Ultramarines rules for them. While it hasn't been outright said that the Sons of Antaeus are descended from the Ultramarines (they don't have much official fluff at all to be honest) it feels appropriate considering the presence of the figure Antaeus in Greek and Berber myth. But they've got solid rules and rules that are markedly different than the other chapters offered. I also play Lamenters (Blood Angels) and Sons of Medusa (Iron Hands) and the Ultramarines rules offer me tactics and characters that perform in ways that I cant get with my other armies.

As for the Ultramarines chapter themselves there's nothing wrong with them. Diehard sticklers to the Codex Astartes with a particular distaste for Tyranids. While they are somewhat "neutral" in their flavoring compared to the other original chapters it's that neutrality that really makes them stand out to me. Its an air of coherency structure that some of the other chapters don't bring to the table and I like that, both in terms of gameplay and narrative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Make a poll called: "Would you read a story about Space Marines who fail constantly?"

I thought that was the story of the Soul Drinkers. I love the Soul Drinkers, but I also love a good tragedy.

Soul Drinkers are awesome

Also can't leave out the Lamenters

Im gonna point out something a buddy pointed out to me. The Ultramarines are the Worf of WH40k. Just gimme a sec and ill explain.

What happens to Worf in Star Trek? He gets beat up a lot, usually to show how scary the alien of the week is.

What happens to the Ultramariens when a new xenos army shows up, they get the crap kicked out of them. Necrons, they got their rocked. Nids, they were nearly destroyed. I mean the one time this doesnt happen is in the Tau codex, and there Calgar lets them leave so he can Exterminatus the planet (which happened to be a tomb world).

So ya the "Ultrasmurfs" being "Teh Best Eva" is actually a load of crap. Read Chapter Due, its not pretty for them. And as for being poster boys, didnt the Blood Ravens kinda take that over after Dawn of War?

 Portugal Jones wrote:
Start reading stuff post 5th edition?

The answer to the OP, simple and neat. XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimmor wrote:
Im gonna point out something a buddy pointed out to me. The Ultramarines are the Worf of WH40k. Just gimme a sec and ill explain.

What happens to Worf in Star Trek? He gets beat up a lot, usually to show how scary the alien of the week is.

What happens to the Ultramariens when a new xenos army shows up, they get the crap kicked out of them. Necrons, they got their rocked. Nids, they were nearly destroyed. I mean the one time this doesnt happen is in the Tau codex, and there Calgar lets them leave so he can Exterminatus the planet (which happened to be a tomb world).

So ya the "Ultrasmurfs" being "Teh Best Eva" is actually a load of crap. Read Chapter Due, its not pretty for them. And as for being poster boys, didnt the Blood Ravens kinda take that over after Dawn of War?

You kidding? Everyone HATES the Blood Ravens - they steal everyone's stuff, man!

they stole jonah orion form the salamanders

 hanshotfirst wrote:
they stole jonah orion form the salamanders

So that's why he's the only black guy.

Apparently they are so good at stealing, even an experienced Librarian does not notice he's changed chapter

Kepora wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:
Im gonna point out something a buddy pointed out to me. The Ultramarines are the Worf of WH40k. Just gimme a sec and ill explain.

What happens to Worf in Star Trek? He gets beat up a lot, usually to show how scary the alien of the week is.

What happens to the Ultramariens when a new xenos army shows up, they get the crap kicked out of them. Necrons, they got their rocked. Nids, they were nearly destroyed. I mean the one time this doesnt happen is in the Tau codex, and there Calgar lets them leave so he can Exterminatus the planet (which happened to be a tomb world).

So ya the "Ultrasmurfs" being "Teh Best Eva" is actually a load of crap. Read Chapter Due, its not pretty for them. And as for being poster boys, didnt the Blood Ravens kinda take that over after Dawn of War?

You kidding? Everyone HATES the Blood Ravens - they steal everyone's stuff, man!

Selym wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
they stole jonah orion form the salamanders

So that's why he's the only black guy.

Apparently they are so good at stealing, even an experienced Librarian does not notice he's changed chapter

Precisely they stole the "Poster Boy" position

Ultrasmurfs? Psssh, that's why I got me some ultra painted Genesis Chapter marines...in RED!

 ansacs wrote:
Ultramarines on the game table are actually amazing. They play absolutely wonderfully and have several top tier builds. I regularly like to play game wise with UM rules.

UM in the fiction are too annoying to be cool. They are that guy who make up a bunch of rules, lose, and then scream how they lost because X reason. Also they are constant going around telling people how they should run stuff...does that sound like anything resembling "cool". They are pretty much the most pedantic stick in the muds in the imperium.

Model wise they have a number of amusing and not cool design choices. The omega symbol used for UM has a very unfortunate similarity to a toilet...often with the toilet paper wrapped on top Their color scheme while being simple to paint and looking surprisingly good when done well also is easy to do poorly and looks like a smurf due to the unrelenting blue that washes out all model detail. UM models without dry brushing and inks look like blue blobbs to most people outside ~4 feet (ie the length of a board).

If all of this wasn't bad enough they also have tons of successor chapters. This means most of the good painters that want to play "UM" tend to gravitate off into a successor chapter. IMO this has lead to a severe lack of well painted UM armies. I have seen less that 1 in 20 UM that are painted to anything looking even decent. On the other hand DA, BA, GK, and SW are usually more like 1 in 5 or 1 in 10. Alot of it is the UM blue is just a bad color to show model detail until and unless the painter puts in real techniques and effort...actually a lot like their chapter tactics. Seems easy at first glance but actually requires finesse to do well.

Captain Sicarius, despite his plot armour, had his ass kicked several a time, and he went "feth this gak" because he wanted an actual ground victory.

No chapter is perfect, I chose Ultramarines because storm bolters on power fists are cool.

So are Lv 3 psykers.

Uhhh....join the Blood Angels? Bring Roboute Gulliman back to life? Take some tactics from other chapters? I dunno.........