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Decide on either a Roman or Greek inspired style, and bring it out. Like, crazy out.

Also, the new boarding shield wielding Horus Heresy guys are a great start. Those wing faced helmets- oh my.

 PandaHero wrote:
And what I read from all your quote (except maybe the firs one) is: I'm super good at what I do.

I mean... like exactly 10000% of all the lore of every character in the history of 40k. Would you play: Joe Blow the Insignificant, the guy who deliver milk successfully at least once in his life?

Joe the Insignificant is the premise of the entire IG army.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
the problem with smurfs is that they are mary sues.

Literally all Space Marine characters are Marty Stus. They're all unstoppable action juggernauts that effortlessly destroy everything placed in front of them. They have no flaws, and when they do, they don't stop them (see: Blood Angels). The only thing they don't have that most Marty Stus do is sex appeal, but Space Marines (with the possible exception of Space Wolves) are heavily hinted to be basically sterile, impotent, and largely asexual.

Complaining that the Ultramarines are Marty Stus is ridiculous because that's true of every Astartes with a name. The only ones that ever die are the SM equivalent of red or mauve shirts.

Indeed. There's nothing particularly OTT about the UM that the SW aren't already doing five times over.

 Psienesis wrote:
Indeed. There's nothing particularly OTT about the UM that the SW aren't already doing five times over.

If anything, from a story perspective, the Traitor Marines are way bigger Marty Stus than the Loyalists. The majority of their characters pre-date the Heresy and are still alive after 10,000 years of warfare against the Imperium, daemons, and rival legions. What? I know Kharn is amazing but it's really unlikely that he hasn't been hit by artillery in the past 10 millenia.

Honestly while I make Matt Ward jokes despite having started the game long after he left, it's silly to genuinely hold that against the Smurfs.
Honestly as I'm glad that some here have mentioned, if any one Chapter is a Mary Sue one, it's the Space Wolves. Which legitimately does piss me off, people hate the Ultramarines for being Mary Sue-ish, but they love the Space Furries for the same thing?! That's just massively hypocritical.
Honestly as mentioned I just find the Ultrasmurfs boring more than anything else, and I actually the same feeling towards the Imperial Fists (You know you're boring when one of your Successors is more interesting than you are ) and nobody gets on their case for it.
The only Loyal Chapters I truly hate are the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Red Scorpions.

guys in the codex chapter tactics description of the smurfs it says none cqn match there skill with bolter or blade

 hanshotfirst wrote:
guys in the codex chapter tactics description of the smurfs it says none cqn match there skill with bolter or blade

That's hyperbolic fluff text. Do you believe that Space Marines truly and literally "know no fear" as well? Y'all're taking this stuff way too literally because you want to hate the Ultramarines. Furthermore, it actually says:

"The Ultramarines epitomise adherence to the Codex Astartes, and their methods present a proud example to their many successor chapters. Whether laying down disciplined bolter fire, charging the foe with chainswords roaring, or pounding them into submission with heavy weapons, none can match the Ultramarines' skill."

Then on the next page, it says of the Imperial Fists:

"With a reputation for excelling in siegecraft, the Imperial Fists and their successors are experts with heavy weapons and bolt weaponry. No foe can stand against their firepower, nor drive them back once their feet are planted."

So which is the best with a bolter? The chapter that can sometimes reroll 1s when shooting bolters or the chapter who can always reroll 1s when shooting bolters? I'd say the Imperial Fists, but you probably want to take "none can match the Ultramarines' skill" literally and at face value, so I bet you'll say Ultramarines to justify your nonsensical hatred.

i am not well versed in furries in sphesss so i dont know if there mary sues.
but guys if you like smurfs go somewhere else. please. i didnt make this with the intention of skub. so please dont go argue and argue somewhere else. if you actually want to say something that you think could make the smurfs cool though then say it

Smurfs ARE cool. To a select few.
My solution to making them more widely accessible: get rid of the vitriolic hatred around them! Too many people have such a knee-jerk reaction to them because of things they read here, on 1d4chan or just in person, without even reading their more recent fluff. Sure, people may dislike their by-the-book, paragon nature: fine. You can't make them perfect, it won't happen. Those people can get their fill of Sue-ism from the Space Wolves, a rogueish, gregarious, loose and wild Chapter who are pretty much the polar opposites of the Smurfs. Both are Sues; it's just that Wolves are regarded as better because REASONS.
All it takes is people to actually take a bit of time and read the fluff with a more open mind and make their own mind up.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
ibut guys if you like smurfs go somewhere else. please. i didnt make this with the intention of skub

Too bad, you opened a can of it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Smurfs ARE cool. To a select few.
My solution to making them more widely accessible: get rid of the vitriolic hatred around them! Too many people have such a knee-jerk reaction to them because of things they read here, on 1d4chan or just in person, without even reading their more recent fluff. Sure, people may dislike their by-the-book, paragon nature: fine. You can't make them perfect, it won't happen. Those people can get their fill of Sue-ism from the Space Wolves, a rogueish, gregarious, loose and wild Chapter who are pretty much the polar opposites of the Smurfs. Both are Sues; it's just that Wolves are regarded as better because REASONS.
All it takes is people to actually take a bit of time and read the fluff with a more open mind and make their own mind up.

This guy knows what's up. There hasn't been anything wrong with the Ultramarines since 5th and the days of the 'spiritual liege' nonsense. That's in the past and anyone who is still clinging to it, like I said in my first post on this thread, is either nursing a severe case of butthurt or they're trying to earn internet edgemaster points.

Wound Sicarius enough to put him in a Dread and Kill of Chronus

Make them more roman legionnare like, those new suzerain models look amazing

Show a bit more of Cassius, Agemann and Calgars arguments and disagreements, those three would clearly be at loggerheads all day

While it's been toned down to some degree in Codex: Space Marines, the Dark Millennium section of the BRB still portrays Ultramarines as the poster boys which all other Astartes fervently wish to emulate.

Here is an idea, stop making everything about them? Look at the new codex, every chapter has a double page of lore, Ultramarine have 4, every chapter has a double page of showing off their models, Ultramarine have 8, every chapter has at least 1 character in the codex (except Iron hands cause screw them apparently and Black Templars who have 3) Ultramarines have 6. Every single picture that shows models in their entries are Ultramarine (except for characters). Every cover since as long as I can remember is ultramarines. Seriously...just push them out of the spotlight, they have had it way too long and received the most characters out of ALL of the Chapters.

 Vulkan Fran'cis wrote:
Here is an idea, stop making everything about them? Look at the new codex, every chapter has a double page of lore, Ultramarine have 4, every chapter has a double page of showing off their models, Ultramarine have 8, every chapter has at least 1 character in the codex (except Iron hands cause screw them apparently and Black Templars who have 3) Ultramarines have 6. Every single picture that shows models in their entries are Ultramarine (except for characters). Every cover since as long as I can remember is ultramarines. Seriously...just push them out of the spotlight, they have had it way too long and received the most characters out of ALL of the Chapters.

Have an exalt, Salamander

Also keep in mind that Black Templars only have as many characters as they do because they used to be their own Codex.

So we don't complain when everything is T'au sept of Tau Fire Warriors, or Sauhtek Dynasty of Necrons?
It's a colour scheme that happens to be the most used. It makes sense that GW would use a Chapter that is so well recognised amongst the player base, plus they reuse most of the models in their pictures anyway. Sure, I'd love to see a full battle company of Howling Griffons or Lamenters, but it's just not feasible to do it for every Chapter.
I can't forgive the wealth of fluff the UM have which other chapters get, and wholeheartedly agree that we should get more fluff for the other first founders at least. That said, I would get rid of Chronus and Telion in a heartbeat and replace them with generic Scout Captain/Tank Commander units instead, and add to the Agemann vs Sicarius issue too. It's a really nice plot hook!

In fairness the other septs of the tau or necron dynasties don't exactly have the same wealth of background built up from 2nd edition

Especially since chapter tactics i think they should give equal attention to all the seperate main chapters and then have some extra written about the ultramarines successors since it is a note worthy fact that they make up most marines now

yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.
also its feasible that other septs adopted that colour scheme because the tau chang colors


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.
also its feasible that other septs adopted that colour scheme because the tau chang colors

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.
also its feasible that other septs adopted that colour scheme because the tau chang colors


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.
also its feasible that other septs adopted that colour scheme because the tau chang colors

You're assumptions are mostly off base, you're reasoning behind hating the face of an entire faction is largely anecdotal, and you're arguments defending those reasonings are mostly simply hand waving and ignoring the thoughts of those who disagree.

You have repeated this thread is about making the Utlramarines "cool again" not about why they are percieved a certain way, yet post only to defend your thoughts on why you don't think they are "cool".

I realize you think it's cool to bash them right now, but if you're going to insist on others posting a certain way then you should at least try to as well. I'd also like you to answer to individuals in this thread who bring up points about looking at the Ultramarines in the light of the 7th edition codex, as that is where the current fluff stands. Does the 7th codex say anything about a spiritual liege? Does it say all marines venerate Guilliman? No? Then we aren't talking about it.

You want suggestions to make them cool again, then you need to respond to the suggestions. By your reasoning they can never be cool again because at one point one of the pieces of fluff regarded them as best, no matter what they change to them. They will always have that dark past where they were called the best.

Hate them if you want, but don't make a thread pretending to want to like them again, which at this point I'm not convinced you even ever have.

All they need is a slight aesthetic change and I think they are golden.

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.

This has literally never been said about the Ultramarines, not even in 5th edition. It's become abundantly clear that you made this thread with the sole purpose of gaining internet edginess points for bashing on the most popular chapter of marines.

Yes. we know. The Ultramarines have a lot of characters, maybe too much. They get a lot of fluff attention and art, and lots of pictures of their heraldry on model boxes. We are aware. That doesn't mean they suck and we should just pour criticism on them. Someone has to be the marketing face of the Space Marines and I can't think of a better chapter, except possibly the Imperial Fists - but yellow is a less popular color than blue, so there you go.

 j31c3n wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
yes but they dont say "the tau caste is the best and all other castes cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they were half as good as the tau from the sept tau.

This has literally never been said about the Ultramarines, not even in 5th edition. It's become abundantly clear that you made this thread with the sole purpose of gaining internet edginess points for bashing on the most popular chapter of marines.

Yes. we know. The Ultramarines have a lot of characters, maybe too much. They get a lot of fluff attention and art, and lots of pictures of their heraldry on model boxes. We are aware. That doesn't mean they suck and we should just pour criticism on them. Someone has to be the marketing face of the Space Marines and I can't think of a better chapter, except possibly the Imperial Fists - but yellow is a less popular color than blue, so there you go.

I never said they suck and I understand someone has to be the face of it, but what I am saying is give someone else a turn, Ultramarines have had it for too long.

I never said you said they sucked.

Who else would be the face of the relatively Codex-compliant chapters? Literally the only others I can think of are the Imperial Fists or the Crimson Fists. Imperial Fists are yellow which wouldn't drive sales and the Crimson Fists aren't part of the original Legions. The other options (White Scars, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard) are too weird.

EDIT: Ninja'd

What about the Salamanders?

From a Narrative point of view this has always been the most approachable of all the Space Marine chapters, in my opinion, as they 'retain more of their humanity' as the Codex put it. They have a strong reputation of actually caring for the humans they are protecting, instead of it always being about some Duty or Honour. As one of the founding legions that has cemented not just their Loyalty, but have managed to prove just how much they are willing to sacrifice in order to defend humanity as a whole time and time again, they are above reproach. There also exists enough lore surrounding this chapter, including even the "all mighty" Guilliman relenting to Vulkan and allowing the Salamanders to remain undivided unlike other chapters, that they won't be boring to flesh out even further.

Now lets look at marketing:
They keep their Armour and Weapons in far better shape then any other Chapter, which is often represented by them having far more detailed work on the finished models. This extra detail can be highlighted in all sorts of promotional works, not just splashed across Codex's, and further encourage people to purchase more paints and 'bling' in order to match. Their colours are primarily greens, which is a shade many people in the modern world think on when they are picturing the military, so there is no concern about it being too 'outlandish' to look good splashed across said promotional material. Even the fire motif is something that can be exploited by marketing quite easily, there is a reason why it is a popular motif.

One of the reasons Ultras are uncool is that they Are boring.

-Everyone else has had a notable failure. The UM don't have that. If an Ultramarine is present in a work of 40k fiction produced by GW or the Black Library, they will always win. There is never any chance of them losing. It's like trying to come up with an interesting Superman story, but every time you think there's finally a way for them to fail, they suddenly have a new excuse as to why that does not matter.

-There's no variation. Most races in 40k have variation. And several SM chapters have variation. As Jinx pointed out above, the Salamanders have personal gear and bling. The Templars have heraldry splatted across everything. Xenos races have unit variation, and the IG often find themselves in a puddle of anachronism stew. The UM are thus: Faceless blue humanoid ceramite in a faceless blue methul bawks, among an army of exactly the same kind of faceless blue methul bawks, some with sticks coming out f them for guns, in what must be the least imaginative effort at creating "new vehicles". Everything about them looks exactly the same.

Yeah, I would love for the Sallies to become the face of Space Marines. They're the first chapter I played, way back when in the Armageddon campaign when they were I3 for no good reason. They're heroic and personable, they care about the people, they're real stand-up guys.

But they're got that whole 'skin black as pitch and eyes like two burning embers' thing going on. I love it, personally, but I can't see it selling models like the helmetless Ultramarine characters.

I would like to say all sorts of derogatory things about people who judge on nothing but skin colour, but admit that it probably is a concern for marketing because... those people still do exist and Game Workshop wants their money.
Personally, **** them, we shouldn't be bending over to make that sort of person more comfortable and should actually relish in making them as uncomfortable as possible!

Besides, with 95% of the models shown wearing helmets, would many new-comers really notice?

It'd be easier to paint though

JinxDragon wrote:
I would like to say all sorts of derogatory things about people who put skin colour first, but admit that it probably is a concern for marketing because... those people still do exist.
Personally, I say feth them!

I agree 100% but that's just the sad fact. GW is an English company and in England there is not an awful lot of ethnic diversity, that's why the vast majority of human and Astartes characters in the fluff are, well, white.