That orginal artwork is cool but really strange. What are these guys? Deathwatch? They have chapter icons on them. I like the eyeband tattoo. The new ones look like blood angels though.
Huh. Never saw Lost Patrol. And I was pretty far gone into 40k in 2000.
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NobodyXY wrote: That orginal artwork is cool but really strange. What are these guys? Deathwatch? They have chapter icons on them. I like the eyeband tattoo. The new ones look like blood angels though.
Old box is Dark Angels, Blood Angels and a Space Wolves guy(I think?)
I was subscribed to white dwarf back then, how they hell have I never heard of this.
Interested to see if this includes new models or just using the existing ones.
Also when are they going to start getting these things into toy stores. The reason the board games worked for them back in the day is it brought new players into the GW hobby, if the only places selling these are GW stockist they are really missing a trick.
I've been slightly disappointed by GW's recent boxed games, in that I actually want to play them as board games and not as collections of miniatures with a board game thrown in. The prices for BaC and DO may be great considering the number of miniatures you get with them, but they're far too high for a standard board game - I'd prefer far fewer models and a lower price. This looks like it might redress the balance though, I'm really intrigued by it. And like some of the other posters, I've never heard of it before!
NobodyXY wrote: That orginal artwork is cool but really strange. What are these guys? Deathwatch? They have chapter icons on them. I like the eyeband tattoo. The new ones look like blood angels though.
Old box is Dark Angels, Blood Angels and a Space Wolves guy(I think?)
The original artwork is bigger (and far older than 2000) and shows a bunch of Scouts from the 'Big 4' with their Sergeants. They date back to the Advanced Space Crusade models, where the Scouts are younger/smaller and the Sergeants wear Power Armour without backpack.
Wasn't there a version of this with scouts and stealers (and more models?) inside a Tyranid ship? Square board sections. Or was that another game? Or even this game with an expansion?
I believe my classic plastic stealers are from that game, but I might be confused
The original Lost Patrol wasnt a major release like ASC or Tyranid Attack which were also different to each other and this one by the way. The rules were fun though.
Content of the 2000 edition (minus rulebook) - image from Lexicanum
This came out of left field. Hopefully the game is good. I've heard that the original was just okay and that the game was a serious meat grinder. I suspect that it won't have any new models since it's only $60, but it would certainly be a nice surprise if it did.
Barzam wrote: This came out of left field. Hopefully the game is good. I've heard that the original was just okay and that the game was a serious meat grinder. I suspect that it won't have any new models since it's only $60, but it would certainly be a nice surprise if it did.
My concern is it will not sell as many units or whatever GW will use as a measure of success. They will take this as a sign that a $150-$165/unit games with more stuff is what the market really wants since BaC and DWOK are presumably doing well sales-wise.
Wow, I remember this game, but a $60 projected price tag? Really? There are plenty of clones of this game on Boardgamegeek- usually under the handle "Patrol: Lost!" to avoid the GW gestapo, that you can print out and use your own models.
And another name for Advanced Space Crusade was Tyranid Attack. Have it, and loved it to death. Converting the squares of movement to inches was the first experience of open-table 40k wargaming for my buddy and me.
This really is weird. It's like that time I was on all fours in a nightclub being ridden by a pole dancer like a horse. There's pics of it, so it must have happened, I know I was there, but I have absolutely no recollection of it!
I never heard about this too^^
I'm a bit worried there are genestealers in this boardgame, too.
I hope GW to put other vilains in thex next boardgames, just to keep those boardgames innovative and original (I'm perfectly ok with 3 genestealers boardgames, but there must be others xenos before we see genestealers again).
Yeah in 2000 i was working for gw stockest as well as collecting everything 40k and ive never seen or heard of this
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't think this was ever advertised in w.d i think its something they did in very small numbers and sold through board game shops
If there's rules up on BGG (and tiles, of course) I'll give this a spin, I think. I don't have scouts, sadly, but regular Marines will do (or Catachans) and I now have MORE than enough stealers.
GW should really.take.the chance to redo scouts as juvies (stuffed with additional organs and steroids and hypnotherapie) that are smaller and slimmer than Marines. Just like they were before those plastic...things we got.
sarduka42 wrote: Yeah this game did indeed exist though I think it may have been direct order only - I didn't see it in any GW stores when it came out.
Wasn't there some urban myth/hoax where someone created a 60s TV show that never existed, put together a site, stills from it, etc until through the power of suggestion they got people to 'remember' seeing it?
Played the Original, but this is going to fail. Regardless on what GW states.
Have they not learned yet that the average person is not going to pay $60 for what looks like an incomplete game???
Nope. GW is still trying to mine their failing customer base. It will probably be a low print run, like the others games (such as Dread Fleet). so it will look GREAT on the bottom line.
And every year they are falling further and further behind on what actual people are willing to pay and play a board game.
This is a 30-40 dollar game. If you were a main stream gaming company you might get away with a higher amount BUT NOT $60.00.
This is interesting, they're really going all in on expanding the range of games, curious to see how well it does given the total lack of nostalgia apparently attached to this one.
....Uh....I too have no recollection of this. At all. White Dwarf subscription and all (heck, I started the hobby when 5th ed WFB Lizardmen came out because Salamanders and their Dimetrodon look hooked me).
Still, nice? Nice to see GW picking up their old games and revamping them - nice to see that Specialist Games branch doing actual standalone games. (Not Dreadfleet lol)
insaniak wrote: Weird... I don't recall ever seeing the original either.
I still have my tiles and card pieces. I never liked those scouts. The same scouts also used in the advanced space crusade game. I've replaced the scout models with more recent ones (2nd ed metals - which the current plastics mostly mimic) but never got around to resurrecting the game.
Sounds like a super-easy repack/reuse of sprues... One Scouts kit, three lots of Stealer sprues for 12 Stealers. A way to make a quick buck with no need to maintain it or reprint.
Jake actually talked about LP on his blog in the last few years, I can't remember if the context was he was revising the rules for his own amusement or if it was about games design.
richstrach wrote: I've been slightly disappointed by GW's recent boxed games, in that I actually want to play them as board games and not as collections of miniatures with a board game thrown in. The prices for BaC and DO may be great considering the number of miniatures you get with them, but they're far too high for a standard board game - I'd prefer far fewer models and a lower price. This looks like it might redress the balance though, I'm really intrigued by it. And like some of the other posters, I've never heard of it before!
^This. Pricing BaC as a 30k starter set and not a board game immediately barred entry to my "to buy" list.
17 models is not a lot for a standard board game, especially given that most GW customers are very likely already to own Generstealers and SM models of some kind if not Scouts.
The big cost in the box is the die cut tiles. As JohnnyHell pointed out, the figures are likely to be sprues for which the moulds are already available from Space Hulk or 40K kits.
That makes perfect sense from the business angle, and the game may appeal to newcomers as a standalone boxed set.
I used to a have a link to an interview with the guy they hired to develop them (Andy Jones? Jake Thornton?), but I cannot find it now... :-(
Most of them have (admittedly brief) Wikipedia pages.
"Ultra Marines is one of a series of 4 "introductory" board games released by Games Workshop in 1991 (The other three being Space Fleet, Kerrunch and Mighty Warriors)"
And another name for Advanced Space Crusade was Tyranid Attack.
Tyranid Attack was the replacement for Advanced Space Crusade, it reused the miniatures (plus some extras), boards and doors but the rules were totally different.
Yesterday I’d gone exploring the wilds of Whitley Bay, visiting a games club I’d just discovered was only a short distance away. I returned to an inbox full of people telling me that Lost Patrol had resurfaced, and did I know any more about it. That was a bit of a surprise.
The short answer is “no”.
Yes I did design the original version, as part of a project to reuse existing plastic figures in new products. This was an intriguing challenge as I couldn’t get any new models made at all, and had a very limited budget for the rest of the components. Even so, I came up with a total of 6 finished games before the whole thing was canned. Sadly, only Gobbo’s Banquet (by Gav) and Lost Patrol made it out of there alive. I suspect that none of the other ones will never appear, which is a special shame for the waste of Ralph Horsley’s lovely board art for my version of Formula Waaagh! Ah well.
Now I like a lot about Lost Patrol, but it isn’t without its faults. Frankly, they irk me a little more every time I play (probably that’s because I think I could do better now, with an extra 16 years’ experience as a designer). Over the years I have asked both GW and FFG whether anyone was interested in a second edition as I’ve got some definite ideas about what I’d do to finesse it. From these queries I knew that FFG didn’t have that license, and as GW specifically kept it I guessed that it might resurface someday.
What looks like a press release has turned up on a number of sites (eg. ICV2, ACD Distribution), and doesn’t tell us much. But I’ll be keeping an eye on the news and I have to get myself a copy when it does come out, if only to see whether they’ve changed what I thought needed improving.
It’s a little bit of a shame not to be able to have any input myself, though to be honest as soon as I found out it was something GW were keeping for themselves I knew it would be that way.
Overall though, I’m excited about the prospect of getting my paws on a new copy to see what they’ve done with it
richstrach wrote: I've been slightly disappointed by GW's recent boxed games, in that I actually want to play them as board games and not as collections of miniatures with a board game thrown in. The prices for BaC and DO may be great considering the number of miniatures you get with them, but they're far too high for a standard board game - I'd prefer far fewer models and a lower price. This looks like it might redress the balance though, I'm really intrigued by it. And like some of the other posters, I've never heard of it before!
Erm, people are literally giving away the boardgame component of the recent boxed games at some clubs, and you can buy them on ebay for a pittance. If you want to play them as games for less money you can do that right now, no need to make the boxes less interesting and have less value for those of us mostly in it for the models.
Azreal13 wrote: This really is weird. It's like that time I was on all fours in a nightclub being ridden by a pole dancer like a horse. There's pics of it, so it must have happened, I know I was there, but I have absolutely no recollection of it!
Same, except for me it was waking up in a field at 5am on a Monday morning having gone down to a local pub for "a couple of drinks" on the previous Friday evening and having no memory after that. This is actually slightly disconcerting, even the GW stuff I didn't own or play I have at least some secondhand knowledge of, even the stuff they brought out before I was even born, but I've never even heard this referred to in passing before now
Ultramarine used the plastic Scouts from Advanced Space Crusade (in four different colours) and the board tiles from 1st edition Space Hulk.
Kerrunch used the humans, dwarves, elves and orcs from 2nd edition Blood Bowl and Dungeonbowl.
Space Fleet used new plastic Imperial Gothic battleships and Eldar Wraithships.
Mighty Warriors used the heroes and Skaven from Advanced Heroquest, and tiles using artwork from the old Dungeon Rooms floor tiles box set.
All four of those had you roll dice in the box lid - the number on the dice didn't (usually) mean anything, only the position of the dice in the hit / miss grid. I suppose you could replicate that with a handful of D9s.
Tyranid Attack used many of the same components (miniatures and floor tiles) as Advanced Space Crusade, but it was an entirely new game, really.
I've never heard of Lost Patrol before, but I wasn't really following GW games in 2000. It looks like there was also Gobbo's Banquet, which looks like it used the goblins from the 4th edition Warhammer Fantasy Battles box, and the bats, snotlings and spiders from Warhammer Quest.
I mean in 2000 I was working a few blocks from a GW store and had a WD subscription. I don't see how I could have missed this.
I remember it - it was only in the catalog for about two months, though.
At the time I remember thinking that it was a clever way to repackage or reuse a a lot of components - even the board tiles were the same size as the tiles in Mighty Empires, which allowed them to reuse the cutting die for making the board.
That said, it wasn't a bad game - just a very inexpensive one for GW.
The Auld Grump
*EDIT* If GW ever wants to regain me as a customer... Warhammer Quest.... (Though I will likely at least get the rules book for Mordheim.)
I'm wondering, given the rather unusual "press release" product announcement, completely counter to their usual strategy, and the self contained and likely rather basic nature of the box contents, if this is another element to the "get our stuff into mainstream toy shops" plan like the build and paint models seem to be?
Barzam wrote: This came out of left field. Hopefully the game is good. I've heard that the original was just okay and that the game was a serious meat grinder. I suspect that it won't have any new models since it's only $60, but it would certainly be a nice surprise if it did.
My concern is it will not sell as many units or whatever GW will use as a measure of success. They will take this as a sign that a $150-$165/unit games with more stuff is what the market really wants since BaC and DWOK are presumably doing well sales-wise.
I don't foresee this box set doing that great sales wise even if it includes new sculpts for a 5 man plastic scout squad. How many people actually need more scouts? I don't forsee a 4th set of genestealer plastic molds and if they do I don't foresee a huge rush to get more of them from players. Considering we have space hulk, current 40k box set, 2 from deathwatch, etc. The game will likely have to sell based on the quality of the games own merits and not necessarily the additional models.
That's exactly my thoughts. If the map tiles are particularly good, I might buy it for them, but I'm already not interested in the figures. That said, it would not be a massive task to make my own set of map tiles if I wanted them.
Erm, people are literally giving away the boardgame component of the recent boxed games at some clubs, and you can buy them on ebay for a pittance. If you want to play them as games for less money you can do that right now, no need to make the boxes less interesting and have less value for those of us mostly in it for the models.
That's not quite what I meant - I don't mean I wish BaC had been released with fewer models at a cheaper price, but that GW's mindset was more geared towards releasing specific affordable board/boxed games, rather than starter sets masquerading as boxed games, or sets intended to be cross-compatible with 40K. In other words, I wish they would also release games (in addition to things like BaC) that aren't primarily aimed at people who are in it for the models! I understand perfectly well why they're doing it, and it makes sound business sense to cater to their proven market, but there's no reason they couldn't release games similar to what FFG currently has on license (Chaos in the Old World for example) and try to capture a new market on top of that. And the best way to do that would be to design them from the ground up as board games, perhaps even with (gasp!) miniatures that aren't intended to be used in 40K or Aos.
The contents list I've seen somewhere says there's twelve 'stealers and six "infestations". Coincidentally, each existing Genestealer sprues has four 'stealers and two little terrain pieces/markers, so I think it'll be three of those sprues. It might include new Scouts, but I think they'll be the existing plastics.
Barzam wrote: This came out of left field. Hopefully the game is good. I've heard that the original was just okay and that the game was a serious meat grinder. I suspect that it won't have any new models since it's only $60, but it would certainly be a nice surprise if it did.
My concern is it will not sell as many units or whatever GW will use as a measure of success. They will take this as a sign that a $150-$165/unit games with more stuff is what the market really wants since BaC and DWOK are presumably doing well sales-wise.
I don't foresee this box set doing that great sales wise even if it includes new sculpts for a 5 man plastic scout squad. How many people actually need more scouts? I don't forsee a 4th set of genestealer plastic molds and if they do I don't foresee a huge rush to get more of them from players. Considering we have space hulk, current 40k box set, 2 from deathwatch, etc. The game will likely have to sell based on the quality of the games own merits and not necessarily the additional models.
Agreed. And I fear that GW's leadership will view any lack of sales for this product as sign that, doggone it, we were right to think we are a model-making company on the top of the quality scale.
See how when we tried to reach the lower end of the market that nobody responded. Let's make the next boxed game $200 MSRP.
God I remember picking that game up just for the old style scouts. Not a bad little game sadly lost it somewhere over the years. Haven't bought any gw stuff for about 2-3 yrs but might have a look at this one.
I had that, if I recall rightly you got tyranid warriors (the gopher teeth ones in the 2nd ed book), and loads of hybrids on the stealer side, and two squads of scouts and a squad of termis on imperial side. Amazing box at the time. I don't think I ever actually played the game though, just built and painted them. Might still have the scouts somewhere with the rt beakies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, both sprues are "old", or from existing kits. Alas, what I mistook for tangleweed counters are instead those toothed sphincters with the tentacles, whatever they may be.
JamesY wrote: I had that, if I recall rightly you got tyranid warriors (the gopher teeth ones in the 2nd ed book), and loads of hybrids on the stealer side, and two squads of scouts and a squad of termis on imperial side. Amazing box at the time. I don't think I ever actually played the game though, just built and painted them. Might still have the scouts somewhere with the rt beakies.
You're thinking of Advanced Space Crusade. In fact, given the mix of models, the Tyranids and Terminators box which gave you a load of Space Marines and Tyranid models to expand the game.
JamesY wrote: I had that, if I recall rightly you got tyranid warriors (the gopher teeth ones in the 2nd ed book), and loads of hybrids on the stealer side, and two squads of scouts and a squad of termis on imperial side. Amazing box at the time. I don't think I ever actually played the game though, just built and painted them. Might still have the scouts somewhere with the rt beakies.
You're thinking of Advanced Space Crusade. In fact, given the mix of models, the Tyranids and Terminators box which gave you a load of Space Marines and Tyranid models to expand the game.
Or Tyranid Attack - it had those contents (well, two hybrids, not 'loads').
...
Erm... looking at the pic above - do the re-use the old tiles?
A good move by Gw. Presumably this was cheap for them to put together. Old models, old art, old rules The price of the game is a little cheaper than the price of the individual models. Gw has a vast catalogue of old games and miniatures waiting to be leveraged. Hero quest or space crusade were gateway drugs into 40k and fantasy for a lot of people. I would like to see gw produce a series of these games while the specialist games section is spinning up.
Chikout wrote: A good move by Gw. Presumably this was cheap for them to put together. Old models, old art, old rules The price of the game is a little cheaper than the price of the individual models. Gw has a vast catalogue of old games and miniatures waiting to be leveraged. Hero quest or space crusade were gateway drugs into 40k and fantasy for a lot of people. I would like to see gw produce a series of these games while the specialist games section is spinning up.
Being cheap to put together was the whole design inspiration according to Jake Thornton http://quirkworthy.com/2016/03/16/lost-patrol-found-again/ The games could only use existing miniatures, and the budget for artwork and anything else was severely limited. Interestingly, several other games were designed for this series, but only Lost Patrol and Gav Thorpe's Gobbo's Banquet ever ended up getting published.
I got rid of my 40k stuff a couple of years back but with all these board games they've been putting out I'm going to have a nids and space marine army back without even trying.
beast_gts wrote: GW did a load of 'little' stand-alone games using existing miniatures with some new boards & rules - Lost Patrol, Ultra Marines, Mighty Warriors, etc.
Spoiler:
I remember all of those, but not Lost Patrol. I first heard about it roughly a month or so ago when a blogger mentioned Jake brought it around to his place for a game.
JamesY wrote: I had that, if I recall rightly you got tyranid warriors (the gopher teeth ones in the 2nd ed book), and loads of hybrids on the stealer side, and two squads of scouts and a squad of termis on imperial side. Amazing box at the time. I don't think I ever actually played the game though, just built and painted them. Might still have the scouts somewhere with the rt beakies.
You're thinking of Advanced Space Crusade. In fact, given the mix of models, the Tyranids and Terminators box which gave you a load of Space Marines and Tyranid models to expand the game.
Or Tyranid Attack - it had those contents (well, two hybrids, not 'loads').
...
Erm... looking at the pic above - do the re-use the old tiles?
It's got to be one of them. I definitely had more than two hybrids, but 20+ years ago I've probably misremembered a few things.
This game is definitely the existing scouts and stealers in coloured plastic though.
That was the contents of Tyranid Attack, and that's because that's how the sprues were layed out (2 Terminators + 4 Stealers per sprue, 2 Hybrds + 1 Libby per sprue, 2 5-man Scout sprues, and then a bunch of Warrior sprues).
The whole schtick of the game was that the jungle constantly changed/moved, broadly using LOS to determine 'live' sections, so myriad smaller sections is a better fit for that.
That's not my concern. My concern is the tiles aren't useable elsewhere.
That's not a criticism of the game - the tiles aren't designed for other games, only for the game they were made for, and it is foolish to criticise something for not being something it never intended to be - but I don't like them, they don't serve my purposes, so I'll pass.
The tiles shown are from the original game, chances are these are just place holders on display until they can knock out a new set graphically more up to date.
I remember those small-box games (I have Space Fleet), but I don't ever remember Lost Patrol.
Overall though, it looks like a pass for me - after all, I still have my scouts from Space Crusade and after all these years they're only partially painted anyways.
If they were to redo a Tyranid attack or Space Crusade at the quality they redid Space Hulk though, I'd be all over that. Especially if they were to give the Warriors a retro (but updated) look with the smooth heads and visible organs.
Looks interesting. I love scouts, and could always use more, so might pick it up for that, but then again, I've been meaning to do one of these boxed games as a standalone set away from my main 40k army. So may just do them up as whatever they are meant to be for the game. Looks like blood Angels.
Hopefully they took *some* time and effort to update the rules as I'm sure they need them, to modernize them or actually create a game people want to play.
So far most of the GW board games are just advertisements for models, which is pretty lame for those of us that like board games.
yeah and that's dumb, they should put effort into them so they can be *both*. Just like all these shovel-ware video games they keep releasing with the 40k logo.. All it does is dilute the brand for the people that ACTUALLY want to play a board or video game.
Odd choices for a re-boxing focused game... the scouts are not really regarded as their strongest minis, and frankly the genestealers are a bit out of date compared to the spacehulk and DWOK stealers. Not to mention being a bit flogged in their boardgames anyways lol.
I dunno, one would figure they would choose stronger models as enticement. I would understand if they were re-boxing old-stock but these are clearly fresh pulls due to the colored plastics used. Odd! And, with relief at this point after 2 DWOK boxes, a pass for me lol.
the squad of Marines must navigate a jungle that moves and changes as they travel the board
... just shouts RANDOM RANDOM RANDOM at me. Tempered a bit by the fact Jake Thornton's been tinkering with it. Reading his blog, I know how much he dislikes that element of Dreadfleet!
The whole schtick of the game was that the jungle constantly changed/moved, broadly using LOS to determine 'live' sections, so myriad smaller sections is a better fit for that.
That was actually the best part of the old game - it felt claustrophobic, with the jungle pressing in on you. A very good way to handle Fog of War.
Though I always felt that it would have been a better fit for Imperial Guard than for SM Scouts - Catachans would have felt right at home.
The Auld Grump, either that or curl up in a ball crying 'Game over, man! Game over!'
JohnnyHell wrote: Maybe... just maybe... this product isn't aimed at dwellers on this forum? And that's OK.
Well that'd be a daft thing to do, 'cos it's mostly dwellers on forums like these who buy them, to get the space marines out of 'em.
BaC and DW:OK targetted different demographics to success (I think), maybe GW can target another demographic again with this game to success once more.
The whole schtick of the game was that the jungle constantly changed/moved, broadly using LOS to determine 'live' sections, so myriad smaller sections is a better fit for that.
Thats quite interesting imo.
I just wonder how different/dynamic the game mechanices will be? I have a bucketload of Stealer forces and a few scouts so could other games like SH/BaC count as game tiles? i.e. why pick this up if and when the ruleset gets leaked?
If the tiles are ultra unique, cool, but if not, Im sure a lot of us could proxy tile games in. And Scouts arent that exciting :(
Anyway nice to see a throwback game coming out - now GW need to hit us with the real classics.....Oh boy please do Space Crusade again.....Or Heroquest.....
JohnnyHell wrote: Maybe... just maybe... this product isn't aimed at dwellers on this forum? And that's OK.
Well that'd be a daft thing to do, 'cos it's mostly dwellers on forums like these who buy them, to get the space marines out of 'em.
And that's a problem. Preaching to the (shrinking) choir has scored them successive years of declining profit and revenue. Experimenting with finding new customers is a sensible and rational response to that.
Bottle wrote:
BaC and DW:OK targetted different demographics to success (I think)
Yeah, people who want 40K space marines beating up genestealers, and people who want 30K space marines beating up other 30K space marines.
Azreal13 wrote:Experimenting with finding new customers is a sensible and rational response to that.
Aye. As Highlord Tamburlaine hinted, the overlap between people wanting expensive boxes full of 40K bits and more 'mainstream' board gamers might not be that high. Same reasons may apply if it's intended as a hook to get new kiddies interested in 40K.
I might say more about the quality of modern GW boardgame rules too *cough*dreadfleet*cough* but to be honest I can't say too much about DWOK: I haven't looked at my copy of the rulebook yet and TBH I'm not bothered if I ever do. I have heard only good things about it... oh wait, I mean I've heard only one thing about it, that happened to be good.
(It's amazing. Soon as the game was out and people started getting their copies, that topic died like a guardsman. Does anyone play it?)
The thread died largely because it got relegated to the GW unsupported and specialist game forum.
I bought DWOK for the game BUT also bought the WD with the GSC rules in it. I had been considering playing 7th with GSC. But the combo of GW writing a GSCHQ with psychic powers that can't be used PLUS You Make Da Call's discussion on that point reminding me why I dropped out in 5th edition cured me.
BaC is also a solid game and even Execution Force lets you play one mission (even solo). So the rules to their recent stuff is fairly decent without having to suffer the 40k argument phase
privateer4hire wrote: The thread died largely because it got relegated to the GW unsupported and specialist game forum.
I bought DWOK for the game BUT also bought the WD with the GSC rules in it. I had been considering playing 7th with GSC. But the combo of GW writing a GSCHQ with psychic powers that can't be used PLUS You Make Da Call's discussion on that point reminding me why I dropped out in 5th edition cured me.
BaC is also a solid game and even Execution Force lets you play one mission (even solo). So the rules to their recent stuff is fairly decent without having to suffer the 40k argument phase
What are you on about? They generate psychic powers on telepathy. One of the strongest disciplines in the game...
There is a lot of talk, usually referencing Dreadfleet about gw board games being bad, but if you look at gw's last 5 games only Dreadfleet was poorly recieved. An 80% success rate is pretty good really. If this game does wellitt will be even better. It was a big disappointment for me when Dreadfleet failed. It was a genuinely ambitious project. I personally loved the minis and the 'board'. I think it's failure set the board game project back 5 years. We would definitely have already seen a new bloodbowl game if it had succeeded.
I hope gw continues to experiment with board games. I hope the new ceo continues to steer the company back towards being a game maker again
I hope that future of the company is as good as it has been in my dreams. I hope...
MajorTom11 wrote: Odd choices for a re-boxing focused game... the scouts are not really regarded as their strongest minis, and frankly the genestealers are a bit out of date compared to the spacehulk and DWOK stealers. Not to mention being a bit flogged in their boardgames anyways lol.
I dunno, one would figure they would choose stronger models as enticement. I would understand if they were re-boxing old-stock but these are clearly fresh pulls due to the colored plastics used. Odd! And, with relief at this point after 2 DWOK boxes, a pass for me lol.
I am not sure if it is a reboxing as the old scouts were more like Necromunda juves in armor, as the cover of the game has the new version Scouts, i assume they will use new plastic scouts, and new stealers
Chikout wrote: There is a lot of talk, usually referencing Dreadfleet about gw board games being bad, but if you look at gw's last 5 games only Dreadfleet was poorly recieved. An 80% success rate is pretty good really. If this game does wellitt will be even better. It was a big disappointment for me when Dreadfleet failed. It was a genuinely ambitious project. I personally loved the minis and the 'board'. I think it's failure set the board game project back 5 years. We would definitely have already seen a new bloodbowl game if it had succeeded.
I hope gw continues to experiment with board games. I hope the new ceo continues to steer the company back towards being a game maker again
I hope that future of the company is as good as it has been in my dreams. I hope...
That's a little misrepresentative. 80% of GW's last 5 board games may have been positively received, but largely for the minis, not the games themselves.
MajorTom11 wrote: Odd choices for a re-boxing focused game... the scouts are not really regarded as their strongest minis, and frankly the genestealers are a bit out of date compared to the spacehulk and DWOK stealers. Not to mention being a bit flogged in their boardgames anyways lol.
I dunno, one would figure they would choose stronger models as enticement. I would understand if they were re-boxing old-stock but these are clearly fresh pulls due to the colored plastics used. Odd! And, with relief at this point after 2 DWOK boxes, a pass for me lol.
I am not sure if it is a reboxing as the old scouts were more like Necromunda juves in armor, as the cover of the game has the new version Scouts, i assume they will use new plastic scouts, and new stealers
What on earth made you think I was referencing anything other than the current scouts and stealers?
privateer4hire wrote: The thread died largely because it got relegated to the GW unsupported and specialist game forum.
I bought DWOK for the game BUT also bought the WD with the GSC rules in it. I had been considering playing 7th with GSC. But the combo of GW writing a GSCHQ with psychic powers that can't be used PLUS You Make Da Call's discussion on that point reminding me why I dropped out in 5th edition cured me.
BaC is also a solid game and even Execution Force lets you play one mission (even solo). So the rules to their recent stuff is fairly decent without having to suffer the 40k argument phase
What are you on about? They generate psychic powers on telepathy. One of the strongest disciplines in the game...
With a BS value of zero, which the forum has argued is/isn't allowable to access the psychic power.
So you very likely could face an opponent who will not recognize the model's ability to use its listed weapons due to BS0.
That is what I'm ON about
Aye. As Highlord Tamburlaine hinted, the overlap between people wanting expensive boxes full of 40K bits and more 'mainstream' board gamers might not be that high. Same reasons may apply if it's intended as a hook to get new kiddies interested in 40K.
I might say more about the quality of modern GW boardgame rules too *cough*dreadfleet*cough* but to be honest I can't say too much about DWOK: I haven't looked at my copy of the rulebook yet and TBH I'm not bothered if I ever do. I have heard only good things about it... oh wait, I mean I've heard only one thing about it, that happened to be good.
(It's amazing. Soon as the game was out and people started getting their copies, that topic died like a guardsman. Does anyone play it?)
I dunno, I would bet there are a lot, A LOT of casual fans out there who read books, play video games and look at models but don't have the time/money/inclanation do whole armies. But a small game with just a handful of models might bring them in.
MajorTom11 wrote: Odd choices for a re-boxing focused game... the scouts are not really regarded as their strongest minis, and frankly the genestealers are a bit out of date compared to the spacehulk and DWOK stealers. Not to mention being a bit flogged in their boardgames anyways lol.
I dunno, one would figure they would choose stronger models as enticement. I would understand if they were re-boxing old-stock but these are clearly fresh pulls due to the colored plastics used. Odd! And, with relief at this point after 2 DWOK boxes, a pass for me lol.
I am not sure if it is a reboxing as the old scouts were more like Necromunda juves in armor, as the cover of the game has the new version Scouts, i assume they will use new plastic scouts, and new stealers
What on earth made you think I was referencing anything other than the current scouts and stealers?
privateer4hire wrote: The thread died largely because it got relegated to the GW unsupported and specialist game forum.
I bought DWOK for the game BUT also bought the WD with the GSC rules in it. I had been considering playing 7th with GSC. But the combo of GW writing a GSCHQ with psychic powers that can't be used PLUS You Make Da Call's discussion on that point reminding me why I dropped out in 5th edition cured me.
BaC is also a solid game and even Execution Force lets you play one mission (even solo). So the rules to their recent stuff is fairly decent without having to suffer the 40k argument phase
What are you on about? They generate psychic powers on telepathy. One of the strongest disciplines in the game...
With a BS value of zero, which the forum has argued is/isn't allowable to access the psychic power.
So you very likely could face an opponent who will not recognize the model's ability to use its listed weapons due to BS0.
That is what I'm ON about
So the broodlord can't do psychic shriek...big whoop. There are 6 other powers on the telepathy table. It's hardly the end of the world.
MajorTom11 wrote: Odd choices for a re-boxing focused game... the scouts are not really regarded as their strongest minis, and frankly the genestealers are a bit out of date compared to the spacehulk and DWOK stealers. Not to mention being a bit flogged in their boardgames anyways lol.
I dunno, one would figure they would choose stronger models as enticement. I would understand if they were re-boxing old-stock but these are clearly fresh pulls due to the colored plastics used. Odd! And, with relief at this point after 2 DWOK boxes, a pass for me lol.
I am not sure if it is a reboxing as the old scouts were more like Necromunda juves in armor, as the cover of the game has the new version Scouts, i assume they will use new plastic scouts, and new stealers
What on earth made you think I was referencing anything other than the current scouts and stealers?
I don't know, saying re-boxing?
You can't rebox current but not big selling stuff in an attempt to clear inventory? Or to update packaging to current brand standards? Lol just to be clear, no, i wasnt talking about the original plastic scouts or stealers from the early/mid 90's , but the lantern jawed charicature headed current scouts and the decent but static current plastic stealer box.
Bottle wrote:
BaC and DW:OK targetted different demographics to success (I think)
Yeah, people who want 40K space marines beating up genestealers, and people who want 30K space marines beating up other 30K space marines.
Sure you could summarise it like that, but I think the BaC boxset targetted existing 40k customers wanting to make the leap into 30k. (And that's the next progression in the customer lifecycle for most 40k players who don't just want to start another new army). Whereas DW:OK seemed to target moreso lost customers and old timers with a self-contained game reminiscent of Space Hulk and lots of throwbacks to 2nd Edition (Genestealer Cult, autoguns, autopistols, needle pistols, Delaque style aesthetic of one hybrid).
I see Lost Patrol targeting new customers, the board game crowd more specifically, and also lost customers who might now have small children who they can play simple board games with.
(It's amazing. Soon as the game was out and people started getting their copies, that topic died like a guardsman. Does anyone play it?)
Give it some time lol! I am still putting my kit together.
(It's amazing. Soon as the game was out and people started getting their copies, that topic died like a guardsman. Does anyone play it?)
I bought DW:OK for the models, and it turns out my boyfriend really loves the game. He has painted a fair share of warhammer models earlier, but never played because of the complex rules. This hit the sweet spot of both immersion and very sweet models and accessible rules.
Now he has even expressed interest in playing other skrimish games with a wider choice of models and stories. So I'm planning Blades and Heroes as the next step and Inquisitormunda after that...
Chikout wrote: There is a lot of talk, usually referencing Dreadfleet about gw board games being bad, but if you look at gw's last 5 games only Dreadfleet was poorly recieved. An 80% success rate is pretty good really. If this game does wellitt will be even better. It was a big disappointment for me when Dreadfleet failed. It was a genuinely ambitious project. I personally loved the minis and the 'board'. I think it's failure set the board game project back 5 years. We would definitely have already seen a new bloodbowl game if it had succeeded.
I hope gw continues to experiment with board games. I hope the new ceo continues to steer the company back towards being a game maker again
I hope that future of the company is as good as it has been in my dreams. I hope...
That's a little misrepresentative. 80% of GW's last 5 board games may have been positively received, but largely for the minis, not the games themselves.
Or is that just Dakka's skewed perception that considers the games a mini delivery service, and doesn't even give the games a chance? Too bad for the people that couldn't be bothered to play the games; they have missed out on some decent ones.
I'd say the games have gotten better each release. Space Hulk was really bad. There were great pieces, but most of the models weren't anything special- more like filler. Coupled with nothing keeping the heavy boards from breaking your lightning claws, chains, or blood drops. Can't say I would do it again. The game is boring as any old overrated board game can be.
Deathwatch and the assassin game at least covered something people somewhat craved. Why would anybody buy an AoS starter at near retail when they could get Deathwatch?
Why is the AoS starter so high if they can pump off decent board games at nearly the same cost. They sure don't care to make things easy on themselves.
Deathwatch is well into the triple digit pricing in the States around my neck of the woods, whereas I got Sigmar for less than 80 at retail.
Truth be told though I would have preferred the prices be switched, as I'm far more likely to see a board game get played in my house than a skirmish.
I hear you but suggest that comparing your specific retail price for AoS with DWOK's MSRP is a little off the mark.
AoS's MSRP is $125 and DWOK is $165.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNC wrote: I'd say the games have gotten better each release. Space Hulk was really bad. There were great pieces, but most of the models weren't anything special- more like filler. Coupled with nothing keeping the heavy boards from breaking your lightning claws, chains, or blood drops. Can't say I would do it again. The game is boring as any old overrated board game can be.
Deathwatch and the assassin game at least covered something people somewhat craved. Why would anybody buy an AoS starter at near retail when they could get Deathwatch?
Why is the AoS starter so high if they can pump off decent board games at nearly the same cost. They sure don't care to make things easy on themselves.
They've always loss-led their starter products. You could get 10 tactical marines, 5 termies, and a dread + a nice little ork force and the core rule book in Black Reach for around $100 IIRC.
That's when 10 tactical marines were running around $35 and termies were at least $40 for a box of 5.
Not defending it and their stormcast unit box prices are beyond the definition to insane. But the starter boxes tend to be good 'relative' value.
JNC wrote: I'd say the games have gotten better each release. Space Hulk was really bad. There were great pieces, but most of the models weren't anything special- more like filler. Coupled with nothing keeping the heavy boards from breaking your lightning claws, chains, or blood drops. Can't say I would do it again. The game is boring as any old overrated board game can be.
Deathwatch and the assassin game at least covered something people somewhat craved. Why would anybody buy an AoS starter at near retail when they could get Deathwatch?
Why is the AoS starter so high if they can pump off decent board games at nearly the same cost. They sure don't care to make things easy on themselves.
Space Hulk really bad?! Pull the other one. None of the games have anything stopping your minis getting broken, if you have difficulty try using a shelf or cabinet. Also how is the demand for a skirmish fantasy starter set vs scifi nostalgia board game/model collection needs comparable? AOS £75 for 47 models Assassins £75 for 24 models 30k £95 for 38 models Deathwatch £100 for 50 models I struggle to see issue with the price point? May be i'm miss understanding your point.
I think GW consistently shine in there box sets ive only not bought dreadfleet from there recent 6 plus years of starters and boxed games. I hope they remake more of the oldies personally. I missed out of bloodbowl so id love tp have a go at a remake, the misses still likes playing space hulk n warhammer quest.
Space Hulk really bad?! Pull the other one. None of the games have anything stopping your minis getting broken, if you have difficulty try using a shelf or cabinet.
1)Not bad as much as boring, IMO. People talked it up like it was some super game, and then I played it. Nothing really sticks out - it shows its age. I didn't care for the scenarios because they lacked any feel of progression; it wasn't interesting.
The minis are great until they are not. Awesome detail, but some have awful quirks.
-bent over marine attacking the ground b/c he's shoved into a corner so tight there wasn't anything else they could do - filler.
-marines that look like they are flopping face-first into the ground. Seriously, why are some of them so low and forward? That's not how people run forward - especially in armor.
-Genestealers doing odd raised lifts b/c they are are flat as spures would allow -lots of odd stuff. I wasn't impressed.
The 'runner' Stealers are better than the multi-piece kit tho' -taller/better arm spread, and the 'jumper' is cool.
I fully admit the good pieces are really good.
2)Delivery - no GW to buy from. The spures are on top of incredibly bulky boards, with nothing stopping the weight from impacting on the weak spots if it shifts or gets flipped. Shelves wouldn't help that.
Also how is the demand for a skirmish fantasy starter set vs scifi nostalgia board game/model collection needs comparable?
3) only comparable to the buyer who is comparing what they would buy for around 120$.
Comparison is the thief of joy, something has gotta give. I personally am not made of money. Delay once, and the opportunities tend to close, for various reasons.
unboxing/discussion:
(haven't watched it myself yet - stuck at work)
from about 3h11mins onwards
EDIT: rrp $60
EDIT2: blood bowl stuff at 3h14m! EDIT3: no real info tho - boo!
Chikout wrote: There is a lot of talk, usually referencing Dreadfleet about gw board games being bad, but if you look at gw's last 5 games only Dreadfleet was poorly recieved. An 80% success rate is pretty good really. If this game does wellitt will be even better. It was a big disappointment for me when Dreadfleet failed. It was a genuinely ambitious project. I personally loved the minis and the 'board'. I think it's failure set the board game project back 5 years.
I don't know the reason for Dreadfleets bad sales - maybe it's the storyline - the game itself plays well. Tho we take out the event cards and never missed them.
What you describe is just a multibuy offer or bundle deal, it's only loss-leading if you actually make a loss, GW starter sets are not loss-making.
At least some business sites consider it a loss leader if the sale is less than what it would have sold for in an open and competitive market.
But multibuy sounds good to me, too.
My point was GW sells their starter sets for less---often significantly less---than they do their individual unit/model sales.
Chikout wrote: There is a lot of talk, usually referencing Dreadfleet about gw board games being bad, but if you look at gw's last 5 games only Dreadfleet was poorly recieved. An 80% success rate is pretty good really. If this game does wellitt will be even better. It was a big disappointment for me when Dreadfleet failed. It was a genuinely ambitious project. I personally loved the minis and the 'board'. I think it's failure set the board game project back 5 years.
I don't know the reason for Dreadfleets bad sales - maybe it's the storyline - the game itself plays well. Tho we take out the event cards and never missed them.
Not according to nearly any reviews.
Dreadfleet is pretty much reviled by the folks that reviewed it. (Though there was a short lived attempt to salvage the game... until GW destroyed their remaining stock.)
So, blame the reviewers - whether or not you agree with them, the reviews were a major reason for the game's failure.
The Auld Grump - having read the rules... I agree with the reviewers.
£35 is a great price. I think I'll be getting this. Seems a perfect way to expand on my Deathwatch Overkill with some more Genestealers later on in the year - and get another great little board game with it.
CragHack wrote: Lost Patrol returns aaand is gone out of stock in what, 1 hour after?
I don't think it was meant to go up.
Well, they say it's out of stock. And you can't pre order it, there's just the 'email me' option to get the notification when its back in stock. Unless they meant that. But then what's the point in doing so...
CragHack wrote: Lost Patrol returns aaand is gone out of stock in what, 1 hour after?
I don't think it was meant to go up.
Well, they say it's out of stock. And you can't pre order it, there's just the 'email me' option to get the notification when its back in stock. Unless they meant that. But then what's the point in doing so...
Things have gone up for preorder in advance before, and they automatically get put as "Temporarily Out Of Stock".
CragHack wrote: Lost Patrol returns aaand is gone out of stock in what, 1 hour after?
I don't think it was meant to go up.
Well, they say it's out of stock. And you can't pre order it, there's just the 'email me' option to get the notification when its back in stock. Unless they meant that. But then what's the point in doing so...
Things have gone up for preorder in advance before, and they automatically get put as "Temporarily Out Of Stock".
Never seen that happen. Well, maybe with 'End Times' hardbacks and TO cards when they used to be limited. Anyways, fact is that they currently can no longer be pre ordered. But I hope GW will fix this
About a couple of years ago, I stumbled across the Lost Patrol thread on BGG. It was released in 2000. Long out of print. At one time, GW provided a pdf of the rules, tokens, and map hexes. That was removed during the Great IP Purge. But, it's still on the Internet. I downloaded and built my own copy. Cheap, easy, takes a lot less than 30 minutes. Of course, I still have a 25 year-old squad of Mohawk Marines from Advanced Space Crusade fame. So, I was all set. to play.
If you want to see the LP rules, you can find'em easy. The map hexes seem to be a bit harder to find. But, on BGG, under the supremely deceptive title Patrol: Lost, are hex tile files for alternative settings, like Space Hulk-ish, or a desert. For the even more adventuresome, I posted a couple of alternative settings on the Lost Patrol forum (Ork Mob and Necromunda gang).
The game is very simple, very basic, very luck driven. Games don't take 30 minutes. The original game is also very biased against the Scouts. The problem with that is there aren't enough decisions, and there is much too much luck to increase your win record with better strategy Still, it"s fun.
The new game replaces critter tokens with Genestealer Models. This must require some rules changes. The models are older molds cast in color specific plastic. Nothing new. Which leads me to believe the games wont sell to 40K gamers just for their models. So, probably no glut of cardboard on ebay. It's made for folks who want a boardgame with interesting GW models.
While I don't buy gw stuff anymore apart the odd paint I will be picking this up. May even paint the scouts as battered raptor marines with jungle camo. Hell even the odd boonie hat just for laughs.
xKillGorex wrote: While I don't buy gw stuff anymore apart the odd paint I will be picking this up. May even paint the scouts as battered raptor marines with jungle camo. Hell even the odd boonie hat just for laughs.
And with this statement, I am now forced to purchase this game and steal your idea for myself. Damn you xKillGorex!
I feel these heads would be a great fit for five scouts in the jungle, stalked by aliens, attempting to escape and get to the choppah! activate the dropship.
they've actually sent out a promotional copy of this to Beast of War (a site who a few years ago they were threatening with the lawyers to the extent they had to drop out of their hookup with wayland games anf go back to Ireland)
Lost Patrol – It Begins
Games Workshop have sent us this amazing Lost Patrol box with all the miniatures and tiles involved. As we’re gamers and hobbyists we’re obviously eager to get playing straight away.
Justin’s going to be working on the models and as Dawn of War III has been announced, I think it’s time for a gritty paint job for the deadly jungle.
I have in mind an upgrade in terrain, I wish to create some 2.5D pieces to place on the board and use some of the spare plants I have boxed away.
so if you want to see what's in the box and how they build, paint and put together some terrain check it out here
I think the colored plastic is pretty nifty. Gundam kits and such already do this(usually with different colors on the same sprue)- maybe GW will start doing something similar.
Sinful Hero wrote: I think the colored plastic is pretty nifty. Gundam kits and such already do this(usually with different colors on the same sprue)- maybe GW will start doing something similar.
There have been colored plastic (but same color on the whole sprue) I think going all the way back to the original Milton Bradley Hero Quest, which had colored models (I think there were green goblins, and bone-colored skeletons, for example). The original Space Hulk had blue genestealers and of course, the newer Space Hulk had red plastic blood angels.
I actually really dislike this, because I like to use colored primer, and when I use red primer on red plastic, I have no idea what I've primed, lol. In that example, I end up priming the model brown. I suppose if you like to prime grey, red plastic is a plus!
Well coloured minis is nothing new. Not sure about the First Space Hulk, but when I got the re-release of Space Hulk about 6 or so years ago, Blood Angels Termies were in red, and Stealers were in blue.
Desubot wrote: Man getting a lot more use out of those Gene Stealer spurs eh?
True
I would love to see them re-release Advanced Space Crusade in a similiar way. Replace the old with the new Scouts and Tyranid Warriors, change artwork in the rulebook and on the cover accordingly, but keep the classic tiles and voila
This looks like a cool little game I can play quickly with friends when we don't have time or room for 40k or whatever. I've already got tonnes of scouts and stealers as well, so I can literally just pick this up and play it straight away.
Might give me time to really do a special paint job on the models from the box too.
For a "game as miniature delivery system" I have no problem with it. I also have no problem with judging success based on how far you get through the tile stack rather than an outright win. But after watching a couple of playthroughs, I don't see that "hope I roll a 6" is tactically deep.
I've seen house rules that suggest revealing new hex tiles immediately as the pathway is revealed, and I think that opens up a few more possibilities to the scouts. The other common house rule seems to be that the genestealer player cannot spawn on the dropship.
The game has some good ideas, it is just a shame it isn't as developed as it could be. I think the more maneuverability the scouts have opposed to the brute force of the genestealers can be a fun little game, as it moves quickly. I realize the whole point is that the genestealers and jungle are against the scouts, but for the game to be fun the scouts need to have deeper maneuver options.
Fugazi wrote: ... no problem with judging success based on how far you get through the tile stack rather than an outright win. But after watching a couple of playthroughs, I don't see that "hope I roll a 6" is tactically deep...
This^^
All the early reviews seem to indicate rediculous 6 or die rule set!!
This game has been on BBG for years with various alternative rule sets.
Most with favourable comments !
It just shocks me that they would release the game with the reported 6 or die 'no fun' rules!!!
I have heard that their might me difficulty settings?
The actual game has easy medium and hard modes??
But that's just rumours !?? I hope GW havn't released this game without Basic field tests!!?
After watching the various play-through and review vids, I pre-ordered the game. I am not looking for an evenly matched skirmish out of an "Ameritrash" style board game. That is more the province of miniatures gaming IMO. Lost Patrol is thematically a game about standing firm in a hopeless situation. If the Scout's had better chances, I think most people would win once and forget it. There aren't enough RPG-elements to otherwise make multiple playthroughs appealing. But while the game does lean heavily on dice rolling, that just emphasizes how crucial those tactical choices the Scouts player does have actually are.
For those who want to make it more forgiving, try reducing the Genestealer assault value from 2 to 1 (and maybe use fully-fledged Marine figures). Or roll a D6 for each Scout on the assaulted tile. Or have Scouts shooting at Genestealers kill on 4+. I doubt the published rules include difficulty adjustment as none of the reviews I have seen mention them even though every review mentions how steep a climb the Scouts have. The real problem I see with this game is it is way too simple for board gamers to justify the price for them.
From reading the WD walkthrough and some online stuff, it appears the central balance of the game is speed.
You have to work through 30 tiles in order for the scout player to win.
It's much, much faster to do this if you split your squad up, but a solo scout vs a stealer is pretty much a foregone conclusion.
Teams of 2 with hvy bolter support is far more comfortable, but your progress is far slower meaning you'll have more 'stealers to deal with overall.
The other factor the Scout player can control is tile removal. Any tile to which your Scouts do not have LOS, measured from any tile within two moves from the tile on which they are standing (whether or not the Scout could actually move there), get removed - and any genestealers standing on such a tile are also removed.
Therefore another way to adjust the difficulty is to change the LOS measurement from 2 to 1 tile.
RoperPG wrote: From reading the WD walkthrough and some online stuff, it appears the central balance of the game is speed.
You have to work through 30 tiles in order for the scout player to win.
It's much, much faster to do this if you split your squad up, but a solo scout vs a stealer is pretty much a foregone conclusion.
Teams of 2 with hvy bolter support is far more comfortable, but your progress is far slower meaning you'll have more 'stealers to deal with overall.
My understanding is that if you split up and your teams lose cohesion during the tile removal phase (which is inevitable), then the scout player must choose one group to keep and the other is lost.
Manchu wrote: The other factor the Scout player can control is tile removal. Any tile to which your Scouts do not have LOS, measured from any tile within two moves from the tile on which they are standing (whether or not the Scout could actually move there), get removed - and any genestealers standing on such a tile are also removed.
Therefore another way to adjust the difficulty is to change the LOS measurement from 2 to 1 tile.
I'd like to try this. The scout movement and tile removal is the most interesting g part of the game to me, so this might be a good way to bring that to the fore.
yeah, Brilliant! I never thought about it like that!
I flicked through the rules and it is indeed a game rigged for the marines to lose! There is no easy mode.
Marines can do two actions per turn. move then shoot, shoot then move... or move twice or shoot twice. Normal guys fire once per action (roll one die) and the heavy bolter fires twice per action (rolls two dice) So if all marines don't move and stand their ground and fire twice they roll 12 dice hitting on 6's killing 2 genestealers per turn average. Genestealers can spawn 3 per turn... so I guess staying still won't work!
Genestealer HtH combat value is equal to how many on the tile x2 2, 4 or 6.
Marines HtH combat value is D6 +1 if sergeant +1 supported by heavy bolter.
So if 3 genestealers attack They have a 6, the best odds of not dying marines can hope for is 50/50! A sergeant with a buddy backed up. needs a 4+ not to die!
There is also a -1 modifier if a marine is alone... so 3 genestealers on a lone marine is a auto win for stealers... which I guess makes sense.
So keep moving or you die! But if you don't kill genestealers they will gang up on you and you die...
Also as soon as the drop pod is revealed the genestealer player can put three genestealers on it! Even if the marine player has all this guys left alive, statistically he won't be able to kill all three genestealers! it's a game i don't think anyone will ever win!
I played several rounds of it tonight. I really liked it. It's fast, which is nice. I think if you want to make it more balanced, reducing the Genestealers to two actions and allowing shooting to hit on a 4 or 5 helps as well. I think mixing the dropship tile in the final 10 tiles adds a nice bit of extra randomness to the tile placement. I don't quit like always knowing where the dropship tile is.
Actually, I might be in the minority here, but I'm interested in picking it up because I have some friends that like board games and this could be a nice addition to our usual items. Anyone actually played it yet? How is it?
Cause when by the skin of your teeth you make it to the last few cards before the dropship, and your opponent / "friend" makes the path loop around back to your starting point; you'll either:
Played through about a dozen games with my son, and the closest either of us got to the escape pod/dropship was 7 tiles away. Also, I just realized there was almost no effort put into this game release. No new mini sculpts, no new rules (that I can see) other than replacing the lurker tokens with actual genestealer models...even the tile art is exactly the same as the original from the early 90s. Would have been nice if the tiles had that durable coating that FFG uses on their card tokens...these seem like they will wear out/scratch more quickly.
zeromaeus wrote: Honestly, it works for me. Then again, as before, I have no scouts. Also my friend wants to start Tyranids so win/win, really.
Starting Tyranids with Genestealers? Oh he is going to be quitting really soon.
Nah. He knows they're not a good faction in the meta. He just likes tyranids. Not everything is about winning.
I said that as a joke hence the emicon (or what ever they are called.) But that is great he is going to start them. I play them and Dark Angels before 5th edition. So yes I perfectly know about playing and not winning.
Tried the game out in store today. Ran through it as both the scouts and the stealers. My first impressions are that it's easy to pick up, fast and fun. But boy is it hard to win as the scouts. I don't think that's necessarily a problem though, and I don't think it would be hard to alter it to make it easier if you wanted to. Kill on a 4+ or a 5+ for example. It's not rocket science.
Could also be fun to see how a ten man squad of Catachan jungle fighters managed to get through the jungle too, just use sergeant Harker as the heavy bolter!
I picked up a copy today, though I'm not entirely sure why - I've already got 3 squads of scouts back from Space Crusade and have more than enough genestealers already (i.e., one or more).
I guess I got it for the game itself, but after a read-through I can see some house rules coming...
Probably give the scouts 10 command points. The points can be used to a) increase the chance to hit or assault value by one (before you roll), or b) to discard a tile from the game and draw again (can't be used more than once a turn) or c) for the scout player to place a drawn tile instead of the genestealer player (can't be used for initial placement).
Played a handful of games today ... man, is this game so unbalanced (though viciously fun if you switch sides each game). Drop pod spawned on one of the six starting squares - the poor scouts still died!
Too bad genestealers aren't this good in real 40K, and thankfully scouts aren't as bad (shooters) in 40K.
Really, if you want to adjust the difficulty, add a unit or two. Maybe an extra scout or a space marine (kills on a 5+ and/or adds +1 to defense rolls to his tile).
yeah, If the scouts find the pod the 'nid player will just put 3 Genestealers on that tile. Like I said earlier A full team of scouts shooting will on average kill only 2 genestealers!
So the scouts not only have to find the drop pod tile without serious losses they then have to have above average luck to clear the tile, with a movement action spare...
Show me someone who says they beat the game and I'll show you a liar! LOL
zeromaeus wrote: How could they place Genestealers on the tile? I thought the Genestealers could only spawn on tiles where there's a path leading off the visible map.
It would make sense as thy can't be placed on dead ends.
But the rule is.
Page Four - Place Genestealer wrote:Put a genestealer on a tile at the end of the path, on the drop ship tile, or on a tile with a infestation.
So GW went out of their way to make the game un winnable.
If the scouts had any hope, it was that blind luck got 1 or 2 to the drop tile! And they win!
Are you guys spawning Genestealers everytime you reveal a path? I don't think that's how it's supposed to work. It also sounds like you're spawning x3 Genestealers for every x1 spawn action. I was under the impression it was x1 Genestealer for x1 spawn action.
I don't have the rules in front of me, but when the droppod is revealed, aren't you supposed to automatically place 3 genestealers on it? If not, we've been playing wrong...
What vicious is the pushback from losing an assault. If the genestealers have you surrounded, the loss of an assault doesn't see you lose just one guy, but everyone in the space.
In the six games we played, one stealer died to gunfire (and that's with the whole squad taking nothing but shoot actions to unload into their midsts). All assaults we ended up with either the stealers outright won, or it was a draw and the scouts had no space to fall back to, which meant they were wiped out.
I tried finding the bit in the rules about placing 'Stealers on the drop pod and I don't recall actually seeing anything about it except that when the pod is revealed, the board doesn't change any more. I don't recall seeing any other rules about the pod. I think some of you guys are actually making yhe game more difficult.
I'm pretty sure the rules as written also say to always put the drop pod as the last tile (bottom of the stack)...though to add a bit more randomness and possibly give the scouts a better chance of reaching it, you could just randomly shuffle it in. Or, like the old Warhammer Quest did with the room cards, shuffle half of them with the end room, and then shuffle the other half of the tiles and place them on top...so your drop pod would be anywhere from 50% in the stack all the way to the last card randomly.
Placing 1 stealer does indeed cost x1 action. I just usually deploy 3 at a time, then move to assault phase. It really depends on how many groups are already on the board, and how many are within assault range.
Other ways to possibly give the scouts a better shake could be: Give each scout 3 actions each turn (only 2 of which can be used to move) and/or limit the number of stealers that can deploy on the dropship each turn.
Another thing I was thinking about was maybe coming up with rules for scouts that are armed with different weapon loadouts...this may overly complicate the game, but having rules for sniper rifles (maybe always kill on a 2+ or 3+ but cause a -1 penalty in CC), and missile launchers (same to-hit chances as normal but kill all stealers on a single tile with a successful hit). Maybe Bolters get 2 dice and Heavy Bolters get 3?
I found myself in close combat far more often than I could shoot. I think allowing the Scouts to hit on a lower roll significantly improves their chances. Reducing 'Stealers to two actions also puts thing much more in the Marines' favor.
I do really like the idea of putting the dropship tile in randomly over having it as the last tile. It fits better with the random shifting terrain idea much better snd potentially also improves the Marines' chances.
re: other difficulty levels, that's idiotic, an insufficient answer, and yet more backpedaling from poor design choices like AOS's points.
re: multiplayer, another stupid and insufficient patch. Granular success in dying is a lame solution that doesn't answer the actual problem of imbalance. Also, how the hell do you actually implement Genestealer divided control? "Hey, I'll be the mob of genestealers next to the isolated scout, you be the lone genestealer over there. Okay, I'll take two actions, you take one." For that matter, how do you determine who's controlling the marines? I get a sergeant, you get a regular guy, let's mob up to fight GS's, I'll roll the die since I've got the best odds"?
re: other difficulty levels, that's idiotic, an insufficient answer, and yet more backpedaling from poor design choices like AOS's points.
re: multiplayer, another stupid and insufficient patch. Granular success in dying is a lame solution that doesn't answer the actual problem of imbalance. Also, how the hell do you actually implement Genestealer divided control? "Hey, I'll be the mob of genestealers next to the isolated scout, you be the lone genestealer over there. Okay, I'll take two actions, you take one." For that matter, how do you determine who's controlling the marines? I get a sergeant, you get a regular guy, let's mob up to fight GS's, I'll roll the die since I've got the best odds"?
Well nobody is forcing you to buy it are they? Don't like it, don't buy it. Lose the chip from your shoulder mate, life's too short to take things so seriously.
"No one is forcing you to buy it" is a lame response to "this product is shoddy," especially when this is in a thread where people get info about it and are presumably deciding whether or not to buy it, or voicing their opinions after having done so. You're right that no one generally forces anyone to buy entertainment items, but, for those who want to make an informed decision about buying them, I had a response.
GW's proposed solution to people complaining about difficulty isn't a solution, which I'm saying so people don't buy the game thinking it is one. I already proposed an actual one, which is just use the gaming materials with their older and basically reasonable version.
If you think my response doesn't have merit, maybe you can tell me why, or just don't bother reading it, I'm not forcing you to
re: other difficulty levels, that's idiotic, an insufficient answer, and yet more backpedaling from poor design choices like AOS's points.
re: multiplayer, another stupid and insufficient patch. Granular success in dying is a lame solution that doesn't answer the actual problem of imbalance. Also, how the hell do you actually implement Genestealer divided control? "Hey, I'll be the mob of genestealers next to the isolated scout, you be the lone genestealer over there. Okay, I'll take two actions, you take one." For that matter, how do you determine who's controlling the marines? I get a sergeant, you get a regular guy, let's mob up to fight GS's, I'll roll the die since I've got the best odds"?
Yes heaven forbid a company tries and fix something that a lot of people don't like. And look how fast they did it? I guess maybe GW needs to go back to the old ways. I was right. Someone, somewhere will always say something bad about GW no matter what they do. Instead of looking at the positive it's the negative that is brought up. Heaven forbid you never make a mistake and try to get redemption.
re: other difficulty levels, that's idiotic, an insufficient answer, and yet more backpedaling from poor design choices like AOS's points.
re: multiplayer, another stupid and insufficient patch. Granular success in dying is a lame solution that doesn't answer the actual problem of imbalance. Also, how the hell do you actually implement Genestealer divided control? "Hey, I'll be the mob of genestealers next to the isolated scout, you be the lone genestealer over there. Okay, I'll take two actions, you take one." For that matter, how do you determine who's controlling the marines? I get a sergeant, you get a regular guy, let's mob up to fight GS's, I'll roll the die since I've got the best odds"?
Yes heaven forbid a company tries and fix something that a lot of people don't like. And look how fast they did it? I guess maybe GW needs to go back to the old ways. I was right. Someone, somewhere will always say something bad about GW no matter what they do. Instead of looking at the positive it's the negative that is brought up. Heaven forbid you never make a mistake and try to get redemption.
I think if you read the review of the blog it sounds like pretty reasoned criticism.
Is that not permitted?
I'm glad I've read it as I can't stomach crap game design, and then what sounds like a half-assed day one patch. It's saved me 30 quid.
Davor wrote: Yes heaven forbid a company tries and fix something that a lot of people don't like. And look how fast they did it? I guess maybe GW needs to go back to the old ways. I was right. Someone, somewhere will always say something bad about GW no matter what they do. Instead of looking at the positive it's the negative that is brought up. Heaven forbid you never make a mistake and try to get redemption.
Actually, no, my complaint was their fix was terrible, not that they tried to fix something. I've stuck around with companies that put out a poor set of rules and made a concerted effort.
If I'm wrong for saying something bad about GW's embarrassingly lame effort, then I don't want to be right. Seriously, there was a time when I was just kinda' mad at GW, but I really do like their IP and their more enjoyable games, and look for more. And I'll even favorably review the ones I like. But I'll also trash the trash.
Sure, since you're asking about the positive, I like the good-natured attitude with which they rushed out a poor patch, and I like the flavor text with which they framed their multiplayer option that looks like no one playtested. I also like that they didn't bother to make new tile art, so you can play the old (and actually playable) edition with the current one. There, that's three things I genuinely (and for emphasis since internet tone can be misinterpreted, I'm being completely honest about those three things) like, surrounding a terrible new edition.
...Thanks, Pacific, for taking the time to read my criticism, and I'm glad it helped w/ the decision.
Imbalance ≠ difficulty. It's not like a perfect strategy, decision-making, extreme patience or caution, knowing probabilities, superb risk-reward assessment or even just gambling when it pays off, having experiences or great reflexes will allow you to roll more 6's.
The game takes like 20 minutes to figure out smart formations and where are good places to move, if that, and then it's a question of how long it takes for scouts to roll middling. It's not a steep learning curve (which I'm completely fine with), just not even remotely balanced. I think about the only thing that would make the game balanced as-is is if the GS player was both really foolhardy and never once learned from their mistakes.
edit- If you like a really unbalanced game, that's fine. I don't understand why that would be fun, but it's fine. But unbalanced in this case has nothing to do with difficulty (i.e. skill/effort-based) but just probability.
And for the record, this isn't about disliking difficulty- Kingdom Death (risk assessment, decision making and backup plans, in the face of many things often getting wrecked by random), Dark Souls (reflex, patience) and Malifaux (high volume of decision-making with a lot of info and bluffing) are all on my list of favorites.
I think if you read the review of the blog it sounds like pretty reasoned criticism.
Is that not permitted?
I'm glad I've read it as I can't stomach crap game design, and then what sounds like a half-assed day one patch. It's saved me 30 quid.
This. Thanks for the review, I was considering picking up a copy but seems a waste of time considering it was meant to be a nice easy pick up and play but requires house ruling to make it work.
I picked it up, though I already had the rules which I found online earlier in the year after reading about it from someone's review using Catachans and subsequent link to Quirkworthy. I'd been (not exactly actively) wondering about tile solutions, and so this edition provides me with both a complete game with updated rules (plus "patches" from this thread), and just as relevantly, components to go with the rules, FAQ and expansion stuff (sniper scouts) I'd already found online. So I'm good with it.
I had the sniper rules somewhere, but lost them, they're done by the author of the original version, who also did a nice write-up / retrospective on Lost Patrol and what he'd change if he got o re-do it again when he heard it was being re-released.
Okay is the game just frigging hard to win for marines or is it absolutely impossible to win? As in no matter what they do they lose? Nothing whatsoever marine player does fails even if they roll best dice rolls possible all the time?
If it's mathematically 100% impossible to win then yeah bad game design.
If it's just frigging difficult then that I can live with. Some of the most addictive games I have played have been precisely "you are almost certain to die. Wanna try again?" games.
Anybody played Telengard? That's nutty difficult. Screw that. I think that MIGHT be 100% impossible to win(assuming it even has a goal which I'm not sure. Never heard of anybody winning it...) yet can be great fun.
One key requirement then is though it's fast to play so you can play it often in quick order.
Thanks spiralingcadaver and panic for your reviews, they're well-detailed and merited. Very baffling how the rules changed, it makes me wonder if all of the Specialist Games releases will have rules adjusted by the idiosyncrasies of the new designers (as the intentionally brutal difficulty of this version shows).
BrookM wrote: I had the sniper rules somewhere, but lost them, they're done by the author of the original version, who also did a nice write-up / retrospective on Lost Patrol and what he'd change if he got o re-do it again when he heard it was being re-released.
I've seen the sniper rules, but would be interested in the retrospective if you happen to be able to find that.
tneva, think about 50-60 d6 rolls, which under the best likely circumstances need to be 4+ (which you can't necessarily force); at worst need to be 7+, and most often need to be 6+, and each time you fail, you lose a scout or the opportunity to advance. It's definitely possible, but has very little to do with skill. Probably 80% of the scouts' strategy is figuring out the least-vulnerable formation in your first game or two; 20% is figuring out where to move (maybe that takes another game or two past that), and the rest is rolling a bunch of single dice and dying. I think the first edition was in the 2:1 sorts of odds and it was pretty enjoyable, wouldn't be surprised if this one were in the 10:1 range. I'm a pretty experienced gamer (if I do say so myself), having played a lot of systems, crunched a lot of numbers, broken a few mechanics, and developed a couple light but fairly well-received game expansions. The odds in my opinion are all shot to hell.
The game's fast because you usually aren't making decisions, but so's candy land.
I've got nothing against fast games, but they either need to be extremely fast or have an interesting enough bluffing and/or decision-making element that they're not on autopilot.
edit: Accolade, glad I could help
I'm curious too, since Silver Tower (my next big target) seems mostly intact, but with one mechanic replaced (different leveling system), one added (more control over dice) and one removed (inter-dungeon adventuring). So, I'm curious to see how much the edition's "improvements" are that, or just that some designer wanted to leave their mark and not just reprint the game with updated aesthetics.
It seems, with the new AOS setting, that the one I was most familiar with (mordheim) is probably never going to see a new edition, but I'd certainly want to try their update to that if it's ever tackled.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I think the first edition was in the 2:1 sorts of odds and it was pretty enjoyable, wouldn't be surprised if this one were in the 10:1 range. I'm a pretty experienced gamer (if I do say so myself), having played a lot of systems, crunched a lot of numbers, broken a few mechanics, and developed a couple light but fairly well-received game expansions. The odds in my opinion are all shot to hell.
10 to 1 is ridiculously good compared to some games I have played
Well, then you might like it. I find games predetermined by odds without any real strategic choices (unless you count "do the obviously stupid thing or do the obviously smart thing" as choice) to be incredibly boring, even when they're not heavily skewed- might as well just roll a single d10 and say you win on a 10, or whatever.
BrookM wrote: I had the sniper rules somewhere, but lost them, they're done by the author of the original version, who also did a nice write-up / retrospective on Lost Patrol and what he'd change if he got o re-do it again when he heard it was being re-released.
