Tau, why hasn't the Imperium just dropped outright Exterminatus on their small holdings, I know there is the 13th BC and Tyranids, etc., distracting them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But...

They were going to Exterminatus primitive Tau but Warp Storms formed plot armour.

Knights. I would lose the knights.

Is it already confirmed who orchestrated the warp storm ?

Not as far as I know. Could just be a natural Warp Storm anyway.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Is it already confirmed who orchestrated the warp storm ?

The Marketing Team.

Eldar. Literally stupidest faction in the game. I don't mean their cheese or their visual style. Poor little guys IQ is too low to be of any interest to me. They basically just screw up everything for everyone because their little feelings tell them too. If any of them had even the smallest iota of intelligence they would realize they could stop sacrifcing one Imperial world for one Eldar life instwead to let the one Eldar to die, help the planet fight off whatever or use it as a distraction, and while you have that distraction go have some kids. Seriously. Any species too stupid to sustain its own kind is an evolutionary dead end.

Dark Eldar are cool though they can stay.

 Gamgee wrote:
Eldar. Literally stupidest faction in the game. I don't mean their cheese or their visual style. Poor little guys IQ is too low to be of any interest to me.

Dark Eldar are cool though they can stay.

How are Eldar okay but not Dark Eldar....

Dark Eldar are cool visually and they fess up to being raving dumb idiots that will try party their way out of this or until the end of their days. They also try and use science and technology to overcome their problems.

They are honest about being stupid. The Eldar are all high and mighty and act smart but I've never seen Eldar depicted do anything but act like extremely emotional idiots who should NEVER be allowed near a gun for their own safety.

pm713 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Eldar. Literally stupidest faction in the game. I don't mean their cheese or their visual style. Poor little guys IQ is too low to be of any interest to me.

Dark Eldar are cool though they can stay.

How are Eldar okay but not Dark Eldar....

Probably due to his grudge against them not being nerfed as much as the Tau in the ITC rulings.

On topic, fluff-wise I would probably say Space Wolves personally. They've become a parody of themselves with all the wolf names and iconography not to mention that fluffwise they have some of the thickest plot armour, even for marines. From a gaming standpoint, knights probably shouldn't be a stand-alone faction.

 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar are cool visually and they fess up to being raving dumb idiots that will try party their way out of this or until the end of their days. They also try and use science and technology to overcome their problems.

They are honest about being stupid. The Eldar are all high and mighty and act smart but I've never seen Eldar depicted do anything but act like extremely emotional idiots who should NEVER be allowed near a gun for their own safety.

Dark Eldar think they're the most amazing race ever and are better than everyone at everything. You have your factions reversed friend.

They do, but they admit it. They are honest in a way the regular Eldar are not. In a weird way. I can respect that. They clearly aren't the best race, but they.

Tyranids. Ugly models, bad rules, stupid fluff. The game would be better off without them.

Grey Knights
Tyranids
Imperial Knights
Militarum Tempestus
KDK

Dark Eldar could be folded into Eldar. They were just Eldar pirates until 3rd edition. Now they are cartoonishly evil space elves. I constantly expect to see them led by Skeletor, and if I were ever to bored enough to build a Dark Eldar force they would be.

Harlequins, another escapee from the Eldar codex. I don't really hate on them, but if they were to disappear again, I don't think anyone would really notice.

As a "faction", I think Knights. They really should just be a 0-1 add-on option to other factions, if you want an army of Knights, play Epic.

Setting that aside, I know the popular answer will likely be Tau, and there's some not terrible reasons for that, but I think they serve a place that has just been somewhat mishandled. The Tau really are a minor, completely insignificant player on the larger Galactic stage. What they are is an example of one of the innumerable small Xenos empires in the Galaxy the occasionally arises. They're big enough to attract *some* attention, but not really big enough to bother devoted any real effort to destroying, particularly when things like massive Ork Waaagh!'s and Tyranid invasions are about.

In that vein, if we're talking about a faction we'd like to see simply go away, or be destroyed (as opposed to simply being folded in with another faction), my vote is going to go with Space Wolves. Their fluff is quite simply unforgivably both poorly written and monstrously contradictory, their theme has been run off the deep end into absurdity, and quite frankly the army at this point really might as well just be Codex: TWC Deathstars, which isn't really something the game needs.

In order?

1: Space Wolves. For all the reasons Vakathi stated. And their models get more ridiculous by the year. Have the Thousand Sons wipe them out in a glorious revenge fest.

2: Tyranids. Chaos is supposed the ultimate threat not some extra-galactic locusts.

3: Grey Knights: Why are they their own army? They're a specialist force in a specialist force.

You can say the Codex:monobuild thing about most books nowadays though.

Which SW fluff is genuinely contradictory? As opposed to just being fluff that's changed over the settings 10'000 years.

Tyranids. Their fluff and their army is as dull as dishwater.

Orks, no redeeming values whatsoever.

Anyone who dares to touch a grav weapon.

All space marines why because I think the game revolves round them to much and if they are gone then just maybe other races might get a bit more love. Or at the very least just one book that's it and one range of models.

Just think with the amount of time spent on marines there could be an entire sisters of battle army plus new sculpts for alot of other side so I so down with the marines

It's "buy the farm", not "bite the farm".

The term dates back to the Roman Legions, where a soldiers retirement lan was live long enough to muster out and use their earnings to purchase farm land on the edge of the empire. However, as most legionaires did not survive long enough to retire, saying that a fallen comrade "bought the farm" became a euphemism for dying early.

Just saying.

SJ

I've never liked the idea of killing factions and have always been curious why other people seem so fascinated with killing factions To me, it's almost always a bad thing.

That said, if I were to kill a 40k faction, it'd probably be Imperial Knights, not because they aren't cool and undeserving of a place in the fluff, but rather because they are an Epic 40k faction more than a 28mm 40k faction.

That said, if I had my way, superheavies would have heavy restrictions in 28mm games in general.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It's "buy the farm", not "bite the farm".

I was wondering when someone would point that out

Though your etymology sounds nice, I don't think there's any basis to believe the phrase goes back to Roman times. I think it only goes back to the times of the World Wars at best.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-buy1.htm

While I'm in the boat of Tyranids being dull and boring and SW being very ridiculous, I'd rather not have armies terminated, but re-worked or joined up to their cousins (SW, Harlequins). We don't need so many codexes

I'll give a pass to the original crew.

Keep the Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Chaos and Bugs.

Necrons and Dark Eldar add almost nothing to the universe or story line (outside of lackluster ret-conning to make them somewhat important to the story).

The Tau at least look cool, and provide a vastly different game-style.

We can kill of the Space Wolves since they keep getting sillier and more ridiculous each year (they've gone from Vikings to Werewolves...and not in a cool way).

As a whole, the game could really use a reduction in "armies" and reduction in codices - combine all the armies back into what they should be and allow some interesting detachments or what not. No reason for Harlequins to be their own book. Combine all the Imperial Agents into one book (Sisters, Inquisition, Grey Knights, etc. all together).

I would say, Grey knights, sisters, and inquisition. My reasoning behind it would be for them to all be rolled into a single large inquisition codex.

But to just wipe out? Tau.
Git yer anime samurai fish goats outta my mah grimdark, ya hear me?! GIT!
*waves cane angrily at the battle suits on his lawn*

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I've never liked the idea of killing factions and have always been curious why other people seem so fascinated with killing factions

Because they're selfish donkey-caves. They don't like it, so no one else should, either.

Or it could be that they just dont believe they fit the narrative, tone, or overarching style of the background the universe, or within the context of a force that really suits 28mm play?

I mean, there's usuaslly something a little deeper than just "those people are jerks".

 Sidstyler wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I've never liked the idea of killing factions and have always been curious why other people seem so fascinated with killing factions

Because they're selfish donkey-caves. They don't like it, so no one else should, either.

pretty much this. that said my answer's gonna be a bit differant.

Space Wolves and Grey Knights. not because I dislike them (one of my armies to Grey Knights) but because they're "single group armies" and thus the anthesis of what a 40k army's fluff SHOULD be. the TLDR version is that, with most 40k armies there is no wrong way to paint it. Pink and white Space Marines? Absolutely! Purple and Yellow Imperial Guard? tasteless but totally fine. chaos is well chaos, pink horror and blue horrors should be their respective colours sure, but if someone painted up an army of Bronze Bloodletters with weapons painted to look aflame I'd praise them for how cool that is. Grey Knights and Space Wolves however are differant. there is a right way and a wrong way to paint them. and I think I'd rather see those factions altered to remove that, even if it meant a major "realms shaking event" occuring.

I'd say drop one of the marine factions, we got plenty of them and honestly they are not that different to justify 5 freaking codcies (plus supplements)

Blood angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights-they can all be dropped (or at least turned into black crusader level with own CT and a few special units), and the game world would hardly change.

Focus on space wolves and grey knights-these are singular chapters of about 1000 marines each, without any real successors or spin-offs like the other marines. how can you justify something that SMALL to have its own codex, while either races and grand factions have been reduced to a single unit (or not at all)

Faction, not just Codex?

Imperium. The lore already exists that the Golden Throne's on the verge of going under. When that happens, Terra disappears and the Imperium loses its ability to travel between systems. Supplies and reinforcements can no longer be delivered, and the Imperium crumbles to dust in short order.

If you mean Codex, then any of the Space Marine ones. Any of them. I don't care which. They get way too much attention.

Wolf wolfs from wolf world on giant wolfs named after wolfs who attack with wolf themed wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf.

Kill space wolfs for the naming conventions alone, damnit!

The Imperium of Man.

@jeffersonian000

It was a play on 'bite the bullet' and 'buy the farm'.

Just saying : )

 Vaktathi wrote:
Or it could be that they just dont believe they fit the narrative, tone, or overarching style of the background the universe, or within the context of a force that really suits 28mm play?

I mean, there's usuaslly something a little deeper than just "those people are jerks".

No, pretty sure they're just donkey-caves.

Good people don't usually go out of there way to make other people miserable. It's why I don't have any real desire to remove any faction from the game, no matter how much I might want to in the case of all the unnecessary Space Marine books that share 90% of the same models and rules (and where they do differ people bitch and moan endlessly about it, so being rolled into one book seems like it would benefit everyone anyway, but whatever), because there are people out there who have spent a good amount of time and money on them that they can't get back. We're talking potentially thousands of dollars, years of your life, and no one wants to see all that go to waste, which is what it feels like when your faction loses support.

If you do want that, if you seriously just can't stand the fact that I like something you don't like and want my investment to be all for nothing, to the point where you constantly make or participate in threads like this one where everyone stands around in a circle and basically jerks off while gaking on Tau (with Knight armies coming in a distant second), then you're an donkey-cave. These same people are also the reason why I can't play the game anymore (even if I wanted to), why I'm assumed to be WAAC/TFG by people who don't know jack gak about me other than my online handle and preferred army, and why I lost all passion for the hobby years ago and don't even build or paint models anymore...why bother? I'm not going to waste what little time I have nowadays pursuing a hobby I'm no longer "allowed" to participate in, and attempt to engage with people who hate my fething guts and are rude asses to me for no real reason. And no, believing that Tau "don't fit the narrative/tone of the universe" is not a good enough reason to gak on someone else's hobby.

The only thing threads like this accomplish are telling people that they're not wanted. They're exclusionary. They're a waste of fething space. They reveal a community that looks friendly and accessible on the outside for the toxic cesspit that it really is. "40k is great, come buy a starter box and join us, brother! Just so long as you don't fething pick Tau..."

I think most factions could hold their own in the WH40k Universe... But if I had to choose, it would be Tyranid. Horde armies are covered on the board with Ork and AM (potentially), and I never really cared for their models. I like the idea of an "alien" army, but I don't think they bring as much to the table as the others. In terms of fluff Orks and Necron fill a similar role, with Orks having the numbers and Necron being resilient. Tyranid kind of fit in the middle for me. With that being said, I do not think GW should get rid of them... Or any faction.

But I would like to see some current factions combined (i.e. single Codex for Adeptus Mechanicus combining Skitarii, Mechanicus, and Knights). IMO the only Ally Codexes for IoM should be SoB, Inquisitors/Assassins, and potentially Grey Knights.

I'm convinced at this point that Necrons have a reserved place in hell for them. Boring playstyle, boring to play against, boring to look at. Hell, even the new fluff for them is complete gak. They seriously need to be told where to go.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Good people don't usually go out of there way to make other people miserable.

No, good people don't. But most of the time when people say "this faction should be removed" it's because it's best for the game as a whole. Making someone else unhappy is an unfortunate cost of making the game better for everyone else, not a desired goal. And the simple fact of game design is that you can't make everyone happy. You just have to accept that you're going to get complaints and make the best game you can.

I think the problem you're seeing with the Tau is that there aren't any good reasons to remove them. It's just stupid complaints about "one time I played a guy with a Tau army and he was such a TFG", or people who don't understand the Tau fluff at all and think that "grimdark" is limited to having lots of skulls on every possible surface. These people are clearly wrong but that doesn't mean that the general idea of removing a faction from 40k is some kind of unacceptable TFG behavior.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Or it could be that they just dont believe they fit the narrative, tone, or overarching style of the background the universe, or within the context of a force that really suits 28mm play?

I mean, there's usuaslly something a little deeper than just "those people are jerks".

No, pretty sure they're just donkey-caves.

Good people don't usually go out of there way to make other people miserable. It's why I don't have any real desire to remove any faction from the game, no matter how much I might want to in the case of all the unnecessary Space Marine books that share 90% of the same models and rules (and where they do differ people bitch and moan endlessly about it, so being rolled into one book seems like it would benefit everyone anyway, but whatever), because there are people out there who have spent a good amount of time and money on them that they can't get back. We're talking potentially thousands of dollars, years of your life, and no one wants to see all that go to waste, which is what it feels like when your faction loses support.

If you do want that, if you seriously just can't stand the fact that I like something you don't like and want my investment to be all for nothing, to the point where you constantly make or participate in threads like this one where everyone stands around in a circle and basically jerks off while gaking on Tau (with Knight armies coming in a distant second), then you're an donkey-cave. These same people are also the reason why I can't play the game anymore (even if I wanted to), why I'm assumed to be WAAC/TFG by people who don't know jack gak about me other than my online handle and preferred army, and why I lost all passion for the hobby years ago and don't even build or paint models anymore...why bother? I'm not going to waste what little time I have nowadays pursuing a hobby I'm no longer "allowed" to participate in, and attempt to engage with people who hate my fething guts and are rude asses to me for no real reason. And no, believing that Tau "don't fit the narrative/tone of the universe" is not a good enough reason to gak on someone else's hobby.

The only thing threads like this accomplish are telling people that they're not wanted. They're exclusionary. They're a waste of fething space. They reveal a community that looks friendly and accessible on the outside for the toxic cesspit that it really is. "40k is great, come buy a starter box and join us, brother! Just so long as you don't fething pick Tau..."

Nobody is going out of their way to make anyone miserable. You're projecting a whole lot here. A simple question was asked and people gave their answers. Nobody is going out of their way to actively hate on anyone or actively force Games Workshop to ban someone from playing their favorite faction ever again. People are responding to "if one has to go, which one would you prefer?". That's not an unfair or horrible question. It really isn't. That's not going out of their way to make other people miserable unless those other people are just far too fragile to deal with the fact that someone doesn't like their faction. You're bringing a whole lot of hostility into this that really wasn't here to begin with.

Tau simply because their entire gameplay style is not suited for 40k... and I know some TFG who play only Tau.

You forgot to give me credit for that quote Sidstyler.

Its unfortunate I've come to own a Tau army unintentionally.

 Quickjager wrote:
Tau simply because their entire gameplay style is not suited for 40k...

Only if you assume that 40k is WHFB with different models. It isn't, and Tau work just fine.

Sisters of Battle. I don't want to remove anyone, but removing SoB would at least remove the least amount of content from the game.

Chaos Marines. Because GW has no intention of properly supporting them with either new codex or models. Also, im a necron player, before some cheeky imperal player wants to make a chaos whiner remark

 Peregrine wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Tau simply because their entire gameplay style is not suited for 40k...

Only if you assume that 40k is WHFB with different models. It isn't, and Tau work just fine.

I would agree with you if they had units that could actually be part of the other 2/3rds of the game.

 Quickjager wrote:
I would agree with you if they had units that could actually be part of the other 2/3rds of the game.

Tau have lots of units that are part of movement. The only thing they lack is melee units, but that's no worse than a pure Khorne demon army having no shooting units.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I would agree with you if they had units that could actually be part of the other 2/3rds of the game.

Tau have lots of units that are part of movement. The only thing they lack is melee units, but that's no worse than a pure Khorne demon army having no shooting units.

The more I play this game and the better my own army has gotten, I'm finding myself re-evaluating my previous opinions.

I'm not as convinced as I used to be that Tau don't belong in 40k. I'm not particularly afraid, e.g., of crisis suits.

And Tau become pretty ineffective once you start killing their marker lights.

There are, however, certain elements of the Tau codex which require tweaking/revision (riptides are complete bull gak, as are ghost keels and stormsurges). I stand by a previous assertion of mine, namely, that Tau players are generally forced either to run cheesy gak, or else, get curbstomped by any reasonably well constructed list in the hands of a player who even half knows what he's doing.

Back to the OP:

I'm fine with basically all of the factions in the game, at least, in concept. I do think that there are too many codices and we could stand to have a lot more things "rolled together," so to speak.

IKs don't need their own codex. Neither do sisters of battle. Neither do blood angels.

Guys, Tau should definitely stay.

Necrons are the army that simply isn't any fun to play against, so that gets my vote for outright removal.

As Tau stay, they should be massively nerfed << Imperial Guard power level. IG should win Tau 4 games out of 5. Keeping Tau around as IG's whipping boy is far better than banning them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Good people don't usually go out of there way to make other people miserable.

And yet, Necrons are still a thing... :(

 Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I would agree with you if they had units that could actually be part of the other 2/3rds of the game.

Tau have lots of units that are part of movement. The only thing they lack is melee units, but that's no worse than a pure Khorne demon army having no shooting units.

The more I play this game and the better my own army has gotten, I'm finding myself re-evaluating my previous opinions.

I'm not as convinced as I used to be that Tau don't belong in 40k. I'm not particularly afraid, e.g., of crisis suits.

And Tau become pretty ineffective once you start killing their marker lights.

There are, however, certain elements of the Tau codex which require tweaking/revision (riptides are complete bull gak, as are ghost keels and stormsurges). I stand by a previous assertion of mine, namely, that Tau players are generally forced either to run cheesy gak, or else, get curbstomped by any reasonably well constructed list in the hands of a player who even half knows what he's doing.

Back to the OP:

I'm fine with basically all of the factions in the game, at least, in concept. I do think that there are too many codices and we could stand to have a lot more things "rolled together," so to speak.

IKs don't need their own codex. Neither do sisters of battle. Neither do blood angels.

Mkay, I guess Imperial Knights could just be a couple of Lords of War dataslates, and Blood Angels could be standard Space Marines, but whose Codex would you roll the Sororitas into?

Pouncey wrote:Mkay, I guess Imperial Knights could just be a couple of Lords of War dataslates, and Blood Angels could be standard Space Marines, but whose Codex would you roll the Sororitas into?

A general inquisition codex?

Table wrote:
Chaos Marines. Because GW has no intention of properly supporting them with either new codex or models. Also, I'm a necron player, before some cheeky impeiral player wants to make a chaos whiner remark

Undead Whiner.

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Mkay, I guess Imperial Knights could just be a couple of Lords of War dataslates, and Blood Angels could be standard Space Marines, but whose Codex would you roll the Sororitas into?

A general inquisition codex?

Sororitas don't work for the Inquisition though, they work for the Ecclesiarchy. Their weird pairing with the Ordo Hereticus isn't really mentioned anymore.

Pretty much every faction that has come out since the beginning of sixth edition. I feel that everything that has come out have just added to the bloat that makes the game the mess it has become.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Mkay, I guess Imperial Knights could just be a couple of Lords of War dataslates, and Blood Angels could be standard Space Marines, but whose Codex would you roll the Sororitas into?

A general inquisition codex?

Sororitas don't work for the Inquisition though, they work for the Ecclesiarchy. Their weird pairing with the Ordo Hereticus isn't really mentioned anymore.

"The Sisterhood's Orders Militant serve as the Ecclesiarchy's fighting arm, mercilessly rooting out corruption and heresy within humanity and every organization of the Adeptus Terra. There is naturally some overlap between the duties of the Sisterhood and the Imperial Inquisition; for this reason, although the Inquisition and the Sisterhood remain entirely separate organisations, the Orders Militant of the Sisterhood also act as the Chamber Militant of the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus."

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas

Adepta Sororitas, Gray Knights and Inquisition could easily be rolled into one codex.

One totally badass codex that might actually stand a chance of being updated every once in a while.

 Traditio wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Mkay, I guess Imperial Knights could just be a couple of Lords of War dataslates, and Blood Angels could be standard Space Marines, but whose Codex would you roll the Sororitas into?

A general inquisition codex?

Sororitas don't work for the Inquisition though, they work for the Ecclesiarchy. Their weird pairing with the Ordo Hereticus isn't really mentioned anymore.

"The Sisterhood's Orders Militant serve as the Ecclesiarchy's fighting arm, mercilessly rooting out corruption and heresy within humanity and every organization of the Adeptus Terra. There is naturally some overlap between the duties of the Sisterhood and the Imperial Inquisition; for this reason, although the Inquisition and the Sisterhood remain entirely separate organisations, the Orders Militant of the Sisterhood also act as the Chamber Militant of the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus."

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas

Adepta Sororitas, Gray Knights and Inquisition could easily be rolled into one codex.

One totally badass codex that might actually stand a chance of being updated every once in a while.

So, how long before we get fluff about Logan Grimnar executing Sisters and Grey Knights because they share a codex with the inquisition?

 Traditio wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Mkay, I guess Imperial Knights could just be a couple of Lords of War dataslates, and Blood Angels could be standard Space Marines, but whose Codex would you roll the Sororitas into?

A general inquisition codex?

Sororitas don't work for the Inquisition though, they work for the Ecclesiarchy. Their weird pairing with the Ordo Hereticus isn't really mentioned anymore.

"The Sisterhood's Orders Militant serve as the Ecclesiarchy's fighting arm, mercilessly rooting out corruption and heresy within humanity and every organization of the Adeptus Terra. There is naturally some overlap between the duties of the Sisterhood and the Imperial Inquisition; for this reason, although the Inquisition and the Sisterhood remain entirely separate organisations, the Orders Militant of the Sisterhood also act as the Chamber Militant of the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus."

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas

Adepta Sororitas, Gray Knights and Inquisition could easily be rolled into one codex.

One totally badass codex that might actually stand a chance of being updated every once in a while.

Could work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So, how long before we get fluff about Logan Grimnar executing Sisters and Grey Knights because they share a codex with the inquisition?

The Space Wolves already killed Battle Sisters and vice-versa. There was a few-weeks-long incident where the Ecclesiarchy turned up at Fenris to investigate claims of heresy relating to the Wolves' rituals, resulting in a space war with the Ecclesiarchy eventually withdrawing.

Space Wolves are awesome for stickin it to the two jerkiest of jerk factions in the Imperium - Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy.

Also he did the same with the Grey Knights, but that small war was much larger and longer, resulting in the loss of multiple planets from Exterminatus following the First War for Armageddon.

Inquisition. I'll eat gak for this comment but I was never into future scify that mimics Gothic. Yes yes space marines are based on rome(let's be real rome was a sick time period) but world purgers bases on the crusades? Not my thing. Strangely I like grey knights as a secret order but the religious zealots are the sisters and should just be the sisters, everone else is just some form or SM who are the elites of the IOM. That being said wolfs are getting silly to the point where they look like somthing on the side of deamons.

P.s. ORKS OR NIDS?!?!?!?!? No way they are the natural bad guys who just exist like animals should. Just as important as the unnatural (deamons) who we can agree are truly evil


If any SM faction were to go down I'd hope it was inquisition. Honestly the wolf's are cool just not the wolfen

What books?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
What books?

No idea. I haven't been able to enjoy reading a novel in years.

I read about it on Lexicanum, I think.

Here's the one with the Ecclesiarchy.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fenris_Incident

And the beautiful piece of lore where they wage war on the Inquisition and Grey Knights.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Months_of_Shame

I feel like the IoM could be narrowed down some, better than half of the codexs are IoM. Not gotten rid of, just consolidated. Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory. Craftworld eldar are also on the bubble, but are significantly more crafty than the tau. Out of game wise, nids are an endangered species, I know one person that plays them competitively, and despite being such a great villain in other GW games (space hulk, deathwatch, lost patrol) they get zero love in 40k.

As for the necrons being shoehorned in and not fitting, Necrons first mention is in rouge trader (you can see a picture of a necron warrior), and they had figures as far back as second/third ed so they have been there since the beginning. The jarring part was the retcon from old crons to new crons, one of GWs biggest lore mistakes. Old Crons fit the setting perfectly, slaves to chtulu-esque monsters who consumed stars, who in turn consumed the lesser races to make more of themselves. The insinuations that Ad Mech was worshiping the C'Tan Dragon, and outright mentions of Necron tech in the assassins codex, pretty much made them the largest threat to the IoM because they were already inside it. Then someone influential had a stroke or something while watching stargate, and we got loony tomb kings in space (and we have all seen how well the tomb kings have done). It was the most awful retcon in a setting known for horrible retcons, and has yet to be equaled in terms of sheer WTF? All of the prior ground work got trashed and we got awkward hand wavey non answer as to the relationship between ad mech and necrons. People see necrons as not quite fitting in and that's why, their story has had to live with the worst retcon since earl flyn gave the count of monte cristo a happy ending.

 Grimgold wrote:
I feel like the IoM could be narrowed down some, better than half of the codexs are IoM. Not gotten rid of, just consolidated. Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory. Craftworld eldar are also on the bubble, but are significantly more crafty than the tau. Out of game wise, nids are an endangered species, I know one person that plays them competitively, and despite being such a great villain in other GW games (space hulk, deathwatch, lost patrol) they get zero love in 40k.

As for the necrons being shoehorned in and not fitting, Necrons first mention is in rouge trader (you can see a picture of a necron warrior), and they had figures as far back as second/third ed so they have been there since the beginning. The jarring part was the retcon from old crons to new crons, one of GWs biggest lore mistakes. Old Crons fit the setting perfectly, slaves to chtulu-esque monsters who consumed stars, who in turn consumed the lesser races to make more of themselves. The insinuations that Ad Mech was worshiping the C'Tan Dragon, and outright mentions of Necron tech in the assassins codex, pretty much made them the largest threat to the IoM because they were already inside it. Then someone influential had a stroke or something while watching stargate, and we got loony tomb kings in space (and we have all seen how well the tomb kings have done). It was the most awful retcon in a setting known for horrible retcons, and has yet to be equaled in terms of sheer WTF? All of the prior ground work got trashed and we got awkward hand wavey non answer as to the relationship between ad mech and necrons. People see necrons as not quite fitting in and that's why, their story has had to live with the worst retcon since earl flyn gave the count of monte cristo a happy ending.

I always feel bad for Tyranids fans. It's so rare that they actually become a playable faction in 40k video games instead of just the NPC enemies.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
What books?

No idea. I haven't been able to enjoy reading a novel in years.

I read about it on Lexicanum, I think.

Here's the one with the Ecclesiarchy.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fenris_Incident

And the beautiful piece of lore where they wage war on the Inquisition and Grey Knights.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Months_of_Shame

Thanks! Who'd have even thought the Wolves capable of a cold war?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Thanks! Who'd have even thought the Wolves capable of a cold war?

They're reckless, but not stupid enough to fire the first shots in a war with the Inquisition.

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Good people don't usually go out of there way to make other people miserable.

But most of the time when people say "this faction should be removed" it's because it's best for the game as a whole.

What would be better for the game is if people didn't come on a forum about 40k and read about how other people want the faction they love squatted because it doesn't fit their selfish view of what the 40k universe "should" be. When the only thing the 40k universe "should" be is a background in which to play the game, the game which includes Tyranids whether you like it or not.

It's just a toxic discussion.

If I was going to pick one faction to go, it'd be Imperial Knights. The models are lovely, and I like the idea of the Titan Legions having a presence in the game, but having them be a playable army in their own right distorts the meta far too much. If you're trying to run a take-all-comers list and you wind up facing Knights, you're at a serious disadvantage. IKs should be Lords of War available to all Imperial armies - that way you're only apt to see 1 on the table in any given game, and that shouldn't be too unreasonable to deal with.

After that, I'd streamline some of the micro-factions - Inquisition, MIlitarum Tempestus, Harlequins, Farsight Enclave, things like that. Factions like that didn't need their own codices, just some variant formations in their parent books. They don't really harm the meta, but they do clutter up the release schedule, unless GW doesn't really intend to support them. Either way, fans are being done a disservice.

As recently as 5th edition, rolling some of the standalone Space Marine chapters into the parent dex would have been eminently doable, but at this point they have too many unique units to do that without losing them, and GW isn't going to invalidate models they're actively selling, so that bell can't be un-rung anymore.

I'd like to see Inquisition, Grey Knights, SoB, Assassins, and Imperial Knights all rolled into one book of Allies. Kind of like the old Dogs of War book for WHFB.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Good people don't usually go out of there way to make other people miserable.

But most of the time when people say "this faction should be removed" it's because it's best for the game as a whole.

What would be better for the game is if people didn't come on a forum about 40k and read about how other people want the faction they love squatted because it doesn't fit their selfish view of what the 40k universe "should" be. When the only thing the 40k universe "should" be is a background in which to play the game, the game which includes Tyranids whether you like it or not.

It's just a toxic discussion.

Come on man its the same as "what's your favorite ___" just the other end of the spectrum. You can't have black without white and vice versa. Everyone has a least favorite model that is someone else's favorite. This is why there are how many armies to choose from again? Dont demonize people's opinions just respectfully disagree

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

The point of the Tau is to represent one of the innumerable tiny Xenos empires that crop up from time to time. The Tau are not a great galactic player, nor are they anything but incidental to the majority of the 40k storyline.The crusades launched against them were miniscule, involved at best a couple of dozen Imperial Guard regiments (when billions of such regiments exist in the Imperium), and were hard fought for the Tau. They're a naieve newborn babe in a den of lions that miraculously somehow escaped anything but the most cursory of glances by the great powers that they live amongst. That's like...the core of their fluff. Unfortunately, it also makes them the easiest to get rid of (just as a newborn baby would be the easy target in a den of lions) if a faction does need to be dumped in a pinch if story was something GW cared about when making such an arbitrary decision.

I think it'd be cool to see one of the major Space Marine chapters get wiped out. We don't need so many and there's become a degree of redundancy; don't like one jump pack assaulty army or don't like one bike heavy army.... try the other. I think the loss of one of the original chapters could advance the narrative and paint a picture of the worsening times.

If not that, I think I'd be forced to say Tau. I like their fiction and I like their models but thematically they seem the most out of place. Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

That's what the Eldar are for!

 aka_mythos wrote:
If not that, I think I'd be forced to say Tau. I like their fiction and I like their models but thematically they seem the most out of place. Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

The Tau are only "less evil" because pretty much anything is less evil than the Imperium. In any other setting they'd be the generic Evil Empire, complete with obvious references to some pretty horrible real-world stuff like colonialism and manifest destiny. And really, this is what makes them so effective as part of the grimdark of 40k. The bright and shining hope for good in the setting is an aggressive xenos empire that is really only "good" because they're pragmatic enough to allow you to surrender and be enslaved instead of mindlessly killing you, and to use science and engineering to build a better gun to kill you with if you refuse. It's the ultimate demonstration of 40k's black and dark gray morality, and it's unfortunate that people don't bother to pay attention to the fluff before complaining about how the Tau don't have enough skulls everywhere.

 Peregrine wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
If not that, I think I'd be forced to say Tau. I like their fiction and I like their models but thematically they seem the most out of place. Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

The Tau are only "less evil" because pretty much anything is less evil than the Imperium. In any other setting they'd be the generic Evil Empire, complete with obvious references to some pretty horrible real-world stuff like colonialism and manifest destiny. And really, this is what makes them so effective as part of the grimdark of 40k. The bright and shining hope for good in the setting is an aggressive xenos empire that is really only "good" because they're pragmatic enough to allow you to surrender and be enslaved instead of mindlessly killing you, and to use science and engineering to build a better gun to kill you with if you refuse. It's the ultimate demonstration of 40k's black and dark gray morality, and it's unfortunate that people don't bother to pay attention to the fluff before complaining about how the Tau don't have enough skulls everywhere.

Colonialism and manifest destiny? dude, that's the small stuff.

IoM are practically space Nazis, with a soviet combat doctrine when it comes to their "mere human" soldiers, while being an ISIS-quality religious theocracy.

40k is so grimdark because somehow, the ISIS space Nazis are not the worst thing out there, heck its one of the least terrible things out there.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

I keep pointing this out. Not only were these crusades, but one of them was one of the largest crusades ever launched in recent history. Enough forces to take a sector and they couldn't take one recently conquered Tau planet. Also in the few hundred years of contact between the IoM and Tau the Tau threat index is rapidly increasing. This happens at the end of Kauyon.

Edit
The sector lords sent the last crusade against the Tau and it included 4 Imperial assassins only one of which returned. A tragic loss for the IoM. Assassins don't grow on trees even when your as big as the IoM. If it wasn't for the Techpriests bailing out the IoM and its crusade with a deus ex plot machina and the first ever (that I know of) super Exterminatus it would have been a total massacre and conquest of the Damocles Gulf which would put them on Ultramars doorstep.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Thanks! Who'd have even thought the Wolves capable of a cold war?

They're reckless, but not stupid enough to fire the first shots in a war with the Inquisition.

Just stupid enough to have been systematically ferreting them out and executing them for a couple of hundred years afterwards?

10penceman wrote:
All space marines why because I think the game revolves round them to much and if they are gone then just maybe other races might get a bit more love. Or at the very least just one book that's it and one range of models.

Just think with the amount of time spent on marines there could be an entire sisters of battle army plus new sculpts for alot of other side so I so down with the marines

Of course that would mean game would die as it wouldn't sell enough.

Players want space marines, GW sells space marines

 Gamgee wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

I keep pointing this out. Not only were these crusades, but one of them was one of the largest crusades ever launched in recent history. Enough forces to take a sector and they couldn't take one recently conquered Tau planet. Also in the few hundred years of contact between the IoM and Tau the Tau threat index is rapidly increasing. This happens at the end of Kauyon.

Edit
The sector lords sent the last crusade against the Tau and it included 4 Imperial assassins only one of which returned. A tragic loss for the IoM. Assassins don't grow on trees even when your as big as the IoM. If it wasn't for the Techpriests bailing out the IoM and its crusade with a deus ex plot machina and the first ever (that I know of) super Exterminatus it would have been a total massacre and conquest of the Damocles Gulf which would put them on Ultramars doorstep.

Where they would finally hit someone with better plot armour than them, rather than random Imperial Worlds #12352.

The Imperium still holds the Gilded Worlds, and the Damocles Gulf is a non factor now. The only things the Imperium really cared about in the area.

Oh, and they made Agrellan completely worthless on the way out, too.

The Tau's advance was completely halted, Shadowsun is confined to a Ghostkeel for life, Aun'va is dead, Farsight has to run off and lick his wounds, and a few of his elites are dead. The Tau general public are actually sick of conquest at the moment, and morale in the Empire is at an all time low.

The Imperium, on the other hand, has lost nothing of value (except perhaps Chapter Master no name, but that needed to happen eventually for Shrike).

Clearly it was a glorious day for the Tau Empire!

And a 'Large Imperial Crusade' is still nothing compared to the forces they have sitting around actually important areas. The Eastern Fringe is a back water compared to the rest of the Galaxy.

And, Imperial High Command only retreated because it was taking too long, as they had a strict timetable. It's not like the Tau exhausted the Imperial Forces, they just held on long enough for the Imperium to go do something more important.

EDIT: Also, If i had to pick a faction that did the least for me in this setting, I would have to give it to the Dark Eldar. Maybe the White Scars can do it, get their Primarch back, a big glorious battle in the streets of Commorragh...

 Pouncey wrote:
Faction, not just Codex?

Imperium. The lore already exists that the Golden Throne's on the verge of going under. When that happens, Terra disappears and the Imperium loses its ability to travel between systems. Supplies and reinforcements can no longer be delivered, and the Imperium crumbles to dust in short order.

 Imateria wrote:
The Imperium of Man.

I'm fine with most of the factions frankly, my problem is how the IOM is all friendly with everyone. I agree with Pouncey, kill the Emperah finally, even if it is something as anticlimatic as being destroyed via asteroid. Keep the factions, but make them all Allies of Convienence, which should be the default alliance level anyway. (and I'm saying this as a Knight owner and someone getting back into Guard), with BB reserved for faction\faction

vyse.04 wrote:
I think most factions could hold their own in the WH40k Universe... \\ I do not think GW should get rid of them... Or any faction..

preach it, brother

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

by all means, get rid of the Tau, then all tau would become FSE. . .

 Peregrine wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
If not that, I think I'd be forced to say Tau. I like their fiction and I like their models but thematically they seem the most out of place. Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

The Tau are only "less evil" because pretty much anything is less evil than the Imperium. In any other setting they'd be the generic Evil Empire, complete with obvious references to some pretty horrible real-world stuff like colonialism and manifest destiny. And really, this is what makes them so effective as part of the grimdark of 40k. The bright and shining hope for good in the setting is an aggressive xenos empire that is really only "good" because they're pragmatic enough to allow you to surrender and be enslaved instead of mindlessly killing you, and to use science and engineering to build a better gun to kill you with if you refuse. It's the ultimate demonstration of 40k's black and dark gray morality, and it's unfortunate that people don't bother to pay attention to the fluff before complaining about how the Tau don't have enough skulls everywhere.

I generally think of the Tau Empire as something along the lines of North Korea. To themselves they seem to be shining beacons in the darkness while to the rest of the world they are a joke. The only reason that the First World nations haven't steamrolled over them is that it isn't worth it, and it would de-focus them from what they consider to be a true threat - each other. I mean, look at their, 'Oh look, we might have nuclear weapons \\ we have intercontinental ballistic missiles,' (that cannot hit continents) 'could you kindly send us some food?'

The only faction I don't really understand is the Ad Mech. Why are they fighting? Shouldn't they just be toiling away making gak for everyone else?
I'm sure it's addressed in their fluff, but I care so little about them that I'll never read it.

In terms of game play, Imperial Knights. They're just not fun to play against. I'm ok with them in an Apoc game, but in regular 40K it's just too much.

Hi guys and gals. Permit me to clarify the basis of the thread if you will. I didn't want to create one which was going to forment hate for faction A or B, I was just interested to see if one faction was going to get it in order for the plot to advance then who would people accept as a necessary loss.

Please keep it civil chaps and chapettes.

Thanks

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Hi guys and gals. Permit me to clarify the basis of the thread if you will. I didn't want to create one which was going to forment hate for faction A or B, I was just interested to see if one faction was going to get it in order for the plot to advance then who would people accept as a necessary loss.

Please keep it civil chaps and chapettes.

Thanks

.
and I'll say it again. . . the Emperor. It doesn't require the 'squatting' of another race or army, but rather forces a breakup of the IOM. As long as they can no longer ally at BB level, I'm fine with most stuff staying as it is.

 carldooley wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Hi guys and gals. Permit me to clarify the basis of the thread if you will. I didn't want to create one which was going to forment hate for faction A or B, I was just interested to see if one faction was going to get it in order for the plot to advance then who would people accept as a necessary loss.

Please keep it civil chaps and chapettes.

Thanks

.
and I'll say it again. . . the Emperor. It doesn't require the 'squatting' of another race or army, but rather forces a breakup of the IOM. As long as they can no longer ally at BB level, I'm fine with most stuff staying as it is.

It effectively wipes out the IG and Militarum Tempestus.

Blood angels, space wolves, dark angels and any other chapter that gets its own codex because it has a few bitz stuck to its marines.

I'd like to see some imperial factions get wiped out, they have half of the in game armies currently. Maybe destroy the Rock and finish the wolves, or have the sisters of battle finally get the axe. A chaos god getting killed would also be an interesting development. A beacon of hope to be drowned out by the knowledge that the remaining three will be even harder to put down.

GW iced Slaanesh in Fantasy. Sorta.

And yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing the Wolfs go - there are plenty enough SMs and CSMs.

But really, still don't like the Necrons.

I wouldn't want to axe a faction because if somebody likes it, they should play them. People hate on Tyranids and Tau, but I know two people who started playing the game because they loved the aesthetics and play style.

I would be down with a streamlining, however. I think all SM can be brought into one large codex with different flavors. I despise what the SW have become (saying that when they were my first army). Instead of being space vikings, you've now got ridiculous wulfen being used in a military manner, powered armored SM riding f'ing wolves, and the Stormfang, with as much aerodynamic prowess as a cinder block.

I think the Inquisition can be made into one faction. Ordo Xenos Army? Take Deathwatch. Ordo Malleus? Grey Knights. Ordo Hereticus? Unlock SoB.

I also think CSM can be given more flavors, similar to SM chapter tactics. But, I would also like to see CSM combined with R&H, since you very rarely see an entire army of CSM in the field. That way, you could be more like the Alpha Legion with just a command squad of CSM advising an insurgent army or an all-CSM IW force. Or combine CSM and R&H for a large warband.

They did not ice slaanesh at all, s/hes just is getting a makeover.

tneva82 wrote:

10penceman wrote:
All space marines why because I think the game revolves round them to much and if they are gone then just maybe other races might get a bit more love. Or at the very least just one book that's it and one range of models.

Just think with the amount of time spent on marines there could be an entire sisters of battle army plus new sculpts for alot of other side so I so down with the marines

Of course that would mean game would die as it wouldn't sell enough.

Players want space marines, GW sells space marines

I'd rephrase that to players buy Space Marines,GW sells Space Marines.
From what gets said around most forums GW doesn't give a damn what players 'want'.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

10penceman wrote:
All space marines why because I think the game revolves round them to much and if they are gone then just maybe other races might get a bit more love. Or at the very least just one book that's it and one range of models.

Just think with the amount of time spent on marines there could be an entire sisters of battle army plus new sculpts for alot of other side so I so down with the marines

Of course that would mean game would die as it wouldn't sell enough.

Players want space marines, GW sells space marines

I'd rephrase that to players buy Space Marines,GW sells Space Marines.
From what gets said around most forums GW doesn't give a damn what players 'want'.

From the conversation I had with the guy at my local GW it seemed more they don't know what players want. He argued that Space Marines are given more support than things like Sisters because Space Marines sell more. Didn't seem to like the idea Sisters don't sell because they were neglected and managed as badly as the Emperor managed his children.

Then there's also GW's open admission that they don't do research.

Edit add; OK yeah on topic. I suppose Tau has had their "fifteen" as reprentatIves of the odd tiny empire that popcorn's up and gets eaten. Let the Nids eat them and start up a new representative. A sapient race of bipedal ratvermin that are the unexpected offspring of humans and dark elder. Grimdark?

Necrons. Boring fluff, boring models, and boring rules.

Knights can go too. Superheavies should be Apoc only.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Necrons. Boring fluff, boring models, and boring rules.

Knights can go too. Superheavies should be Apoc only.

That sounds like a wonderful idea.
Mind you, I would miss watching my opponent's face fall when they realise my Wulfen can bust up their points sink with Thunder Hammers after they've been stomped to death.

Not interested in killing a faction, I love the depth of conflict too much. I would like to see an overhaul of the Tyranids though into something more fluff stimulating and game unique.

Daemons - they just don't fit into sci-fi.

With that, you could junk the space marine army created specifically to counter them - Gray Knights.

 Stormonu wrote:
Daemons - they just don't fit into sci-fi.

With that, you could junk the space marine army created specifically to counter them - Gray Knights.

Alternate dimension entities that prey on your emotions and are made of the psychic echo of quintillions of people isn't sci-fi enough for you?

Personally if any faction was going to get dropped I'd say Tau. Only because the space they hold really should be given over to a more general xenos book that has Tau and about a dozen other races in it that you can mix and match into an army.

That aside, the solo Marine books need to be folded into a single book. With Black Templars having Crusade Squads to themselves it's not like other "this chapter and it's successors only" stuff couldn't be locked away behind CT walls negating the need for Dark Angels and Blood Angels books. Space Wolves could get a pass on this, but honestly I don't think it could hurt. Only outlier really is Grey Knights and Deathwatch (accoridng to rumors) and I could live with those two having books as long as the rest got done right.

Inquisition could be split up into different Ordos books or pull in the Grey Knights, Sisters (who currently have no mention of their work with the =I= in their own codex despite old fluff), and Storm Troopers into a single book with them an the Assassins and just make it "Forces of the Imperium" with ways to play everythuing pure or mixed together.

Ad Mech should definitely be one book and not two as well.

I think Tyranids just need a down and dirty rework.

I'd vote for Grey Knights. I just think the whole super space marine thing is a bit silly. "I'm so space marine that even space marines tell me to chill the !@#$ out".

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Necrons. Boring fluff, boring models, and boring rules.

Knights can go too. Superheavies should be Apoc only.

That sounds like a wonderful idea.
Mind you, I would miss watching my opponent's face fall when they realise my Wulfen can bust up their points sink with Thunder Hammers after they've been stomped to death.

Bring it, I haven't lost a fight against space wolves yet. Besides An army as one dimensional as SW probably shouldn't be calling other armies boring to fight. I've tried to think of good analogy for them, and the best I could come up with is it's like fighting an army of Labrador retrievers while wearing a jumpsuit covered in tennis balls.

pm713 wrote:
Didn't seem to like the idea Sisters don't sell because they were neglected and managed as badly as the Emperor managed his children.

He probably hears this conspiracy theory hundreds of times a year and is just bored of armchair board-members commenting on areas of the business he has no control over.

If I had to cut any faction it'd be one of the snowflake chapters, any of them. There are just too many and they're becoming comical with how characterised GW is making them. Failing that I'd drop sisters, a bad attempt to add girls to this game of dolls.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sisters of Battle. I don't want to remove anyone, but removing SoB would at least remove the least amount of content from the game.

Removing Sisters would remove FAR more from the game than generic forgettable marine variation #27,987.

Sisters are actually relatively unique, unlike the various colors of Space Marine.

I honestly wouldn't notice if Sisters were removed. I've literally never seen them on the table top.

I don't think they should be removed though. The players seem extremely passionate about them, and will stick with them through their shoddy treatment.
Sort of the opposite of exactly what I hate about the hobby - those who jump to the flavour of the month, strongest codex whenever they can.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Necrons. Boring fluff, boring models, and boring rules.

Knights can go too. Superheavies should be Apoc only.

That sounds like a wonderful idea.
Mind you, I would miss watching my opponent's face fall when they realise my Wulfen can bust up their points sink with Thunder Hammers after they've been stomped to death.

Bring it, I haven't lost a fight against space wolves yet. Besides An army as one dimensional as SW probably shouldn't be calling other armies boring to fight. I've tried to think of good analogy for them, and the best I could come up with is it's like fighting an army of Labrador retrievers while wearing a jumpsuit covered in tennis balls.

I wouldn't say Space Wolves are one dimensional and that's a....different analogy to what I normally hear.

Tyranids. The setting has the horde threat from the orks, the ancient menace from the necrons, and the big bad in chaos. Plus GW has never gotten them right as I don't think they know how to approach them in models or fluff.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I honestly wouldn't notice if Sisters were removed. I've literally never seen them on the table top.

I don't think they should be removed though. The players seem extremely passionate about them, and will stick with them through their shoddy treatment.
Sort of the opposite of exactly what I hate about the hobby - those who jump to the flavour of the month, strongest codex whenever they can.

Actually having a small Sisters force, I would certainly notice and be filled with pique and spite if Sisters were removed; and I do play them from time to time.

I got mine on something of a lark, and am glad that I kept mine.

Factions that should be dropped (from game not lore necessarily)

Imperial Knights
Grey Knights
AdMech
MT
Tyranids

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Factions that should be dropped (from game not lore necessarily)

Imperial Knights
Grey Knights
AdMech
MT
Tyranids

Nope. These are all fine.

Imperial Knights. Gotta go as a standalone army.

We implemented a local fix by allowing people to bring one as a Lord of War option. But we banned it as a standalone codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
Tyranids. The setting has the horde threat from the orks, the ancient menace from the necrons, and the big bad in chaos. Plus GW has never gotten them right as I don't think they know how to approach them in models or fluff.

Without Tyranids, there'd be no Xenomorph copy, which is somehting I enjoy. Orks are a bit too comical to fit the role, IMO.

Martel732 wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Factions that should be dropped (from game not lore necessarily)

Imperial Knights
Grey Knights
AdMech
MT
Tyranids

Nope. These are all fine.

Why? I can see arguments for all of them except Nids and Ad mech.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Factions that should be dropped (from game not lore necessarily)

Imperial Knights
Grey Knights
AdMech
MT
Tyranids

Nope. These are all fine.

Why? I can see arguments for all of them except Nids and Ad mech.

I'm not saying remove AdMech from the lore as their lore is pretty cool and they're an essential part of the IoM. However, as their own standalone army? It just seems like it doesn't fit. I can imagine some of them as allies for Guard but that's about it, they shouldn't have their own codex. And can someone explain the difference to me between 40k and 30k AdMech outside of fluff?

For 'Nids I think they actually fit the setting pretty well and I really want to like them, I do. I just hate the way they were implemented in both crunch and fluff. Their army was nerfed into a single semi-competitive mono-build (flyrant spam) and many of their units are useless thanks to the Crudd. Their fluff is also fairly boring apart from the whole "unseen impending doom" aspect of it. Just my opinion though. For horde armies I'd prefer blob guard or da green tide any day. Their only cool looking models IMO are Hormagaunts, Lictors and Carnifexes. It's sad to see them in this state.

Imperial Knights are only making the whole Riptide/Wraithknight spam problem worse. They're clearly an attempt by GW to make more money by selling big models and there are enough mini-Titans already.

MT are pointless, a few new Stormtroopers models for IG would suffice.

Grey Knights are the worst example of Matt Ward's in terms of fluff and crunch (at least in 5th ed). They epitomise everything wrong with his Codices (Space Marine fanboyism, Mary Sues, OP units, favouritism and awful fluff).

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Factions that should be dropped (from game not lore necessarily)

Imperial Knights
Grey Knights
AdMech
MT
Tyranids

Nope. These are all fine.

Why? I can see arguments for all of them except Nids and Ad mech.

I'm not saying remove AdMech from the lore as their lore is pretty cool and they're an essential part of the IoM. However, as their own standalone army? It just seems like it doesn't fit. I can imagine some of them as allies for Guard but that's about it, they shouldn't have their own codex. And can someone explain the difference to me between 40k and 30k AdMech outside of fluff?

For 'Nids I think they actually fit the setting pretty well and I really want to like them, I do. I just hate the way they were implemented in both crunch and fluff. Their army was nerfed into a single semi-competitive mono-build (flyrant spam) and many of their units are useless thanks to the Crudd. Their fluff is also fairly boring apart from the whole "unseen impending doom" aspect of it. Just my opinion though. For horde armies I'd prefer blob guard or da green tide any day. Their only cool looking models IMO are Hormagaunts, Lictors and Carnifexes. It's sad to see them in this state.

Imperial Knights are only making the whole Riptide/Wraithknight spam problem worse. They're clearly an attempt by GW to make more money by selling big models and there are enough mini-Titans already.

MT are pointless, a few new Stormtroopers models for IG would suffice.

Grey Knights are the worst example of Matt Ward's in terms of fluff and crunch (at least in 5th ed). They epitomise everything wrong with his Codices (Space Marine fanboyism, Mary Sues, OP units, favouritism and awful fluff).

Why don't they fit though?

MT let you have a special forces army while letting you have the human theme.

I don't mind MT's existence-- I think we should have more codices, not less-- but you could do the same with Kasrkyn, Sisters, or Inquisition.

pm713 wrote:

Why don't they fit though?

MT let you have a special forces army while letting you have the human theme.

To avoid starting a pyramid I cut down the quotes.

For your question I assume you mean the Mechanicum. I'd believe the Tech-Priests would be maintaining technologies, checking for deviation from STC's and (at most) be defending their forge worlds from uprisings and Xenos. It's not their models that don't fit. It's just having them as an army that doesn't fit. I don't know too much about them but I don't imagine them mustering their own armies, on their own to go and fight Xenos. IIRC, when they want something, they petition the guard, or if it's really serious they get the Space Marines.

I get your point about the MT, they just have so few units and even fewer unique ones and if you want that feel you could just play Veteran Guard. I think they should be absorbed into regular AM TBH.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Necrons. Boring fluff, boring models, and boring rules.

Knights can go too. Superheavies should be Apoc only.

That sounds like a wonderful idea.
Mind you, I would miss watching my opponent's face fall when they realise my Wulfen can bust up their points sink with Thunder Hammers after they've been stomped to death.

Bring it, I haven't lost a fight against space wolves yet. Besides An army as one dimensional as SW probably shouldn't be calling other armies boring to fight. I've tried to think of good analogy for them, and the best I could come up with is it's like fighting an army of Labrador retrievers while wearing a jumpsuit covered in tennis balls.

I was replying to the Knight comment, not the Necron one but if we must swap insults the Necrons don't even understand what re-animation means. Come on, an undead army that no longer has the army wide ability to come back from the dead? How lame is that? On top of that the whole Egyptian theme has been done before, in Fantasy and in the Thousand Sons, by the way, the Sons did it so much better, nothing tops their awesome hats, except the army that chased them and their hats into the warp.

In terms of actual in game rules?

Imperial Knights - army of Superheavies does not need to be in 40k. Really. It doesn't. That's what Apocalypse is for. That's why the Detachments have the 1 LoW slot.

Superheavies are obnoxious because they force certain armies to have to build very specifically to deal with them - wildly off tangent from their general All Comers Lists.

KDK are a close second - they just feel redundant. It's a very weak Codex that seems to be just a better version of Khorne CSM or Chaos Daemons...yet inexplicably unable to take the figurehead Khorne CSM special character or the figurehead Khorne Daemon special character. It's like Skarbrand and Kharn were just left to languish. They don't feel like a faction. It feels like a glorified supplement to be honest and even then not really great.

As far as quietly fading into the ether to be only mentioned in fluff and never again in Gameplay as a functional army for fluff reasons?

Sisters of Battle.
Grey Knights.

It makes no sense for the relatively small or secretive forces like these to be a great whopping big army. Like, I could see as a dataslate like Inquisition - you know, a unit or two you tack onto another IoM army as allies of a sort...but a whole army?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
It makes no sense for the relatively small or secretive forces like these to be a great whopping big army

Using that argument, not a single Space Marine chapter would have a codex.

 Melissia wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
It makes no sense for the relatively small or secretive forces like these to be a great whopping big army

Using that argument, not a single Space Marine chapter would have a codex.

Space Marine Chapters have functional fleets and armouries that rival entire planetary systems.

Soritas Covenants literally sit on a planet or shrine to protect just that.

And Grey Knights are literally bogeymen called out in extreme situations that warrant their existence.

In real world terms...

Most 40k forces are the equivalent of a country's armed forces.

Space Marines are the equivalent of a prominent or famous unit or type - Marines, Paratroopers, etc.

Sisters of Battle are the equivalent of a covenant of nuns.

Grey Knights are the equivalent of something like the Ghostbusters or the A-Team.

I mean, hell, it'd be jolly fun to play the Sisters of St Mary's Chapel in Aberystwyth or whatever in Bolt Action or any other WW2 based wargame but it sure as hell doesn't make a lot of sense.

Oh look, goalpost-moving! Isn't that always fun?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Space Marine Chapters have functional fleets and armouries that rival entire planetary systems.

And number a thousand soldiers plus support staff.
I quote you:

DarkStarSabre wrote:It makes no sense for the relatively small or secretive forces like these to be a great whopping big army

This applies to every single Space Marine chapter. They are all "relatively small or secretive forces", on the same size scale as Grey Knights, and on a smaller size scale to Sisters of Battle while also being far more secretive than the Sisters of Battle are.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Soritas Covenants literally sit on a planet or shrine to protect just that.

The lore begs to differ.

Actually...
- Imperial Guard and Navy are the actual military;
- PDF are reservists;
- Stormies are the Special Forces;
- Space Marines are the extra-special Special Forces;
- Grey Knights are the extra-extra-special Special Forces;
- Knight Households are like Blackwater; and
- Sisters are akin to the Holy See's Vatican Guard. On Steroids. With 'roid rage turned to 11.

If the Holy See sent the Vatican guard out constantly on crusades, maybe, but that makes it a bad comparison to any modern army.

And if the Vatican Guard was considered to be on a level equal to that of extra-special Special Forces, for that matter, which they aren't.

That's actually part of the appeal of the Sisters to be honest, that they don't have an easy equivalent to modern forces.

It's "Buy the farm" or "Bought the farm." From World War Two Refers to crashing a plane into a field and destroying the crops. So that the Government has to pay for them (or buy the farm).

Gobbla wrote:It's "Buy the farm" or "Bought the farm." From World War Two Refers to crashing a plane into a field and destroying the crops. So that the Government has to pay for them (or buy the farm).

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:@jeffersonian000

It was a play on 'bite the bullet' and 'buy the farm'.

Just saying : )

He knows already lol

 carldooley wrote:
and I'll say it again. . . the Emperor. It doesn't require the 'squatting' of another race or army, but rather forces a breakup of the IOM. As long as they can no longer ally at BB level, I'm fine with most stuff staying as it is.

This x10.

But let the emperor go out swinging.

Have him wake up. Then command the tech priests to convert the golden throne into a huge dreadnought...and then let him fight Papa Nurgle himself right on Holy Terra. In death his walker's fingers can be permanently curled around the space that used to be Nurgle's neck.

Good ol Nurgle doesn't die, of course...just back the warp for some fish sticks and bucket of cream. The Empra' isn't so lucky...

First, I'd get rid of the Squats. Then the Zoats. Then the Sisters Of Battle!

AdMech, all Space Marine codices other than the big SM codex, kill Grey Knights, and combine each race into one codex.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Why don't they fit though?

MT let you have a special forces army while letting you have the human theme.

To avoid starting a pyramid I cut down the quotes.

For your question I assume you mean the Mechanicum. I'd believe the Tech-Priests would be maintaining technologies, checking for deviation from STC's and (at most) be defending their forge worlds from uprisings and Xenos. It's not their models that don't fit. It's just having them as an army that doesn't fit. I don't know too much about them but I don't imagine them mustering their own armies, on their own to go and fight Xenos. IIRC, when they want something, they petition the guard, or if it's really serious they get the Space Marines.

I get your point about the MT, they just have so few units and even fewer unique ones and if you want that feel you could just play Veteran Guard. I think they should be absorbed into regular AM TBH.

They still need to go out and search for technology and STC's. I can see why a secretive organisation wouldn't find this suitable for the Imperial Guard and sending Space Marines after things that may or may not exist seems a waste. So basically the Mechanicum armies are for things they don't want/can't use Guard and Astartes for.

pm713 wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Why don't they fit though?

MT let you have a special forces army while letting you have the human theme.

To avoid starting a pyramid I cut down the quotes.

For your question I assume you mean the Mechanicum. I'd believe the Tech-Priests would be maintaining technologies, checking for deviation from STC's and (at most) be defending their forge worlds from uprisings and Xenos. It's not their models that don't fit. It's just having them as an army that doesn't fit. I don't know too much about them but I don't imagine them mustering their own armies, on their own to go and fight Xenos. IIRC, when they want something, they petition the guard, or if it's really serious they get the Space Marines.

I get your point about the MT, they just have so few units and even fewer unique ones and if you want that feel you could just play Veteran Guard. I think they should be absorbed into regular AM TBH.

They still need to go out and search for technology and STC's. I can see why a secretive organisation wouldn't find this suitable for the Imperial Guard and sending Space Marines after things that may or may not exist seems a waste. So basically the Mechanicum armies are for things they don't want/can't use Guard and Astartes for.

But that wouldn't be an entire army, it would probably be a company at max. Imperial Guard take the planet, then the admech come in afterwards and look for stuff once it is all secured.

Read Gods of Mars and Lords of Mars and it will set it out quite nicely, from a time well before the existence of models for the Ad Mech.

Elements of the Ad Mech would be in a massive expedition along with the IG but would be equipped for fighting

To add to a previous point: every Forge World has a standing army of its own as well, and these aren't just generic Imperial Guard.

Basically they have a reason to exist, unlike the 5 seperate Marine books.

Rather than removing any factions, I prefer the idea of shaking up the current ones. I'd like to see the blood angels or dark angels turn traitor and become battle brothers with chaos. Or have the wolves turn Chaos forcing the 1000 Sons could go loyal. The wolves are damn near there. Give em a couple Khorn banners and they're set. I could even imagine one of the Chaos Gods turning on the others. If Slanesh helps kill off all of the CSM that worship Khorne, Khorn grows weaker and he can grow stronger. Now Slanesh is best buddies with Tau and Crons. I want the storyline to roll a little forward. Not crazy forward.. just a little.

That sounds pretty crazy forwards tbh.

Chaos gods allying with the Tau and Necrons? Yeah not just a little change

That would go down as well as End Times did....

Chaos, Tau and Necron Alliance? Worst thing since BA/Crons alliance.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Orks, no redeeming values whatsoever.

I'd go with imperial knights, too. I'm not against imperials using them as lords of war, but trying to shoehorn a couple random giant robots as their own faction seems a little silly.

OTOH, Knight Households with Knights and supporting units? That would have been ace...

 IGtR= wrote:
That sounds pretty crazy forwards tbh.

Chaos gods allying with the Tau and Necrons? Yeah not just a little change

I'm sorry, I simply can't look at your forum picture-thing without bursting into laughter. The longer I look at it, the funnier it gets.

I don't mean that as an insult, quite the opposite. : D

 dodgemetal wrote:

Gobbla wrote:It's "Buy the farm" or "Bought the farm." From World War Two Refers to crashing a plane into a field and destroying the crops. So that the Government has to pay for them (or buy the farm).

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:@jeffersonian000

It was a play on 'bite the bullet' and 'buy the farm'.

Just saying : )

He knows already lol

No, he thought you misspoke. "Bite the bullet" means accept (or prepare) for something painful. "Buy the Farm" means to die. Mixing them Is kind of like "The straw that broke the bridge too far."

@Gobblar, you got me. I was drunk when I created this thread and that was the best excuse I could come up with : )

@IGtR=, dear God man/woman. What is that monstrosity in your profile pic. Too many blessings of the Dark Gods? Apologies if that is actually one of your minis. No offence intended.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Chaos, Tau and Necron Alliance? Worst thing since BA/Crons alliance.

I don't know about you, but I'd team up with anyone against a Tyranid horde. Including CSM.

Martel732 wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Chaos, Tau and Necron Alliance? Worst thing since BA/Crons alliance.

I don't know about you, but I'd team up with anyone against a Tyranid horde. Including CSM.

I don't know. Depends upon the type of CSM. Nurgle marines don't look all that different to me than gibbering hordes of rippers and digestion pools. Honestly, I think the digestion pools come OUT of nurgle marines...

Space Wolves are awesome for stickin it to the two jerkiest of jerk factions in the Imperium - Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy.

and somehow suffering no negitive concequences for eaither

Eldar - changes the universe from grim-dark to noble-bright. Very mary sue.

The named SM chapters, BA, DA, SW. We don't need so many fancy pants chapters. Just do their unique units as special issue or something (ie. if you take furioso, cannot take thunderwolves, etc)

mechanium - full of potential of wyrd science, but ended up being steampunk. adds nothing, and unpopular.

kburn wrote:
Eldar - changes the universe from grim-dark to noble-bright. Very mary sue.

How?

Grey Knights should never have been an army but a small allied option.
Same with Knights.