Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
What books?

No idea. I haven't been able to enjoy reading a novel in years.

I read about it on Lexicanum, I think.

Here's the one with the Ecclesiarchy.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fenris_Incident

And the beautiful piece of lore where they wage war on the Inquisition and Grey Knights.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Months_of_Shame

Thanks! Who'd have even thought the Wolves capable of a cold war?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Thanks! Who'd have even thought the Wolves capable of a cold war?

They're reckless, but not stupid enough to fire the first shots in a war with the Inquisition.

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Good people don't usually go out of there way to make other people miserable.

But most of the time when people say "this faction should be removed" it's because it's best for the game as a whole.

What would be better for the game is if people didn't come on a forum about 40k and read about how other people want the faction they love squatted because it doesn't fit their selfish view of what the 40k universe "should" be. When the only thing the 40k universe "should" be is a background in which to play the game, the game which includes Tyranids whether you like it or not.

It's just a toxic discussion.

If I was going to pick one faction to go, it'd be Imperial Knights. The models are lovely, and I like the idea of the Titan Legions having a presence in the game, but having them be a playable army in their own right distorts the meta far too much. If you're trying to run a take-all-comers list and you wind up facing Knights, you're at a serious disadvantage. IKs should be Lords of War available to all Imperial armies - that way you're only apt to see 1 on the table in any given game, and that shouldn't be too unreasonable to deal with.

After that, I'd streamline some of the micro-factions - Inquisition, MIlitarum Tempestus, Harlequins, Farsight Enclave, things like that. Factions like that didn't need their own codices, just some variant formations in their parent books. They don't really harm the meta, but they do clutter up the release schedule, unless GW doesn't really intend to support them. Either way, fans are being done a disservice.

As recently as 5th edition, rolling some of the standalone Space Marine chapters into the parent dex would have been eminently doable, but at this point they have too many unique units to do that without losing them, and GW isn't going to invalidate models they're actively selling, so that bell can't be un-rung anymore.

I'd like to see Inquisition, Grey Knights, SoB, Assassins, and Imperial Knights all rolled into one book of Allies. Kind of like the old Dogs of War book for WHFB.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Good people don't usually go out of there way to make other people miserable.

But most of the time when people say "this faction should be removed" it's because it's best for the game as a whole.

What would be better for the game is if people didn't come on a forum about 40k and read about how other people want the faction they love squatted because it doesn't fit their selfish view of what the 40k universe "should" be. When the only thing the 40k universe "should" be is a background in which to play the game, the game which includes Tyranids whether you like it or not.

It's just a toxic discussion.

Come on man its the same as "what's your favorite ___" just the other end of the spectrum. You can't have black without white and vice versa. Everyone has a least favorite model that is someone else's favorite. This is why there are how many armies to choose from again? Dont demonize people's opinions just respectfully disagree

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

The point of the Tau is to represent one of the innumerable tiny Xenos empires that crop up from time to time. The Tau are not a great galactic player, nor are they anything but incidental to the majority of the 40k storyline.The crusades launched against them were miniscule, involved at best a couple of dozen Imperial Guard regiments (when billions of such regiments exist in the Imperium), and were hard fought for the Tau. They're a naieve newborn babe in a den of lions that miraculously somehow escaped anything but the most cursory of glances by the great powers that they live amongst. That's like...the core of their fluff. Unfortunately, it also makes them the easiest to get rid of (just as a newborn baby would be the easy target in a den of lions) if a faction does need to be dumped in a pinch if story was something GW cared about when making such an arbitrary decision.

I think it'd be cool to see one of the major Space Marine chapters get wiped out. We don't need so many and there's become a degree of redundancy; don't like one jump pack assaulty army or don't like one bike heavy army.... try the other. I think the loss of one of the original chapters could advance the narrative and paint a picture of the worsening times.

If not that, I think I'd be forced to say Tau. I like their fiction and I like their models but thematically they seem the most out of place. Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

That's what the Eldar are for!

 aka_mythos wrote:
If not that, I think I'd be forced to say Tau. I like their fiction and I like their models but thematically they seem the most out of place. Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

The Tau are only "less evil" because pretty much anything is less evil than the Imperium. In any other setting they'd be the generic Evil Empire, complete with obvious references to some pretty horrible real-world stuff like colonialism and manifest destiny. And really, this is what makes them so effective as part of the grimdark of 40k. The bright and shining hope for good in the setting is an aggressive xenos empire that is really only "good" because they're pragmatic enough to allow you to surrender and be enslaved instead of mindlessly killing you, and to use science and engineering to build a better gun to kill you with if you refuse. It's the ultimate demonstration of 40k's black and dark gray morality, and it's unfortunate that people don't bother to pay attention to the fluff before complaining about how the Tau don't have enough skulls everywhere.

 Peregrine wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
If not that, I think I'd be forced to say Tau. I like their fiction and I like their models but thematically they seem the most out of place. Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

The Tau are only "less evil" because pretty much anything is less evil than the Imperium. In any other setting they'd be the generic Evil Empire, complete with obvious references to some pretty horrible real-world stuff like colonialism and manifest destiny. And really, this is what makes them so effective as part of the grimdark of 40k. The bright and shining hope for good in the setting is an aggressive xenos empire that is really only "good" because they're pragmatic enough to allow you to surrender and be enslaved instead of mindlessly killing you, and to use science and engineering to build a better gun to kill you with if you refuse. It's the ultimate demonstration of 40k's black and dark gray morality, and it's unfortunate that people don't bother to pay attention to the fluff before complaining about how the Tau don't have enough skulls everywhere.

Colonialism and manifest destiny? dude, that's the small stuff.

IoM are practically space Nazis, with a soviet combat doctrine when it comes to their "mere human" soldiers, while being an ISIS-quality religious theocracy.

40k is so grimdark because somehow, the ISIS space Nazis are not the worst thing out there, heck its one of the least terrible things out there.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

I keep pointing this out. Not only were these crusades, but one of them was one of the largest crusades ever launched in recent history. Enough forces to take a sector and they couldn't take one recently conquered Tau planet. Also in the few hundred years of contact between the IoM and Tau the Tau threat index is rapidly increasing. This happens at the end of Kauyon.

Edit
The sector lords sent the last crusade against the Tau and it included 4 Imperial assassins only one of which returned. A tragic loss for the IoM. Assassins don't grow on trees even when your as big as the IoM. If it wasn't for the Techpriests bailing out the IoM and its crusade with a deus ex plot machina and the first ever (that I know of) super Exterminatus it would have been a total massacre and conquest of the Damocles Gulf which would put them on Ultramars doorstep.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Thanks! Who'd have even thought the Wolves capable of a cold war?

They're reckless, but not stupid enough to fire the first shots in a war with the Inquisition.

Just stupid enough to have been systematically ferreting them out and executing them for a couple of hundred years afterwards?

10penceman wrote:
All space marines why because I think the game revolves round them to much and if they are gone then just maybe other races might get a bit more love. Or at the very least just one book that's it and one range of models.

Just think with the amount of time spent on marines there could be an entire sisters of battle army plus new sculpts for alot of other side so I so down with the marines

Of course that would mean game would die as it wouldn't sell enough.

Players want space marines, GW sells space marines

 Gamgee wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

I keep pointing this out. Not only were these crusades, but one of them was one of the largest crusades ever launched in recent history. Enough forces to take a sector and they couldn't take one recently conquered Tau planet. Also in the few hundred years of contact between the IoM and Tau the Tau threat index is rapidly increasing. This happens at the end of Kauyon.

Edit
The sector lords sent the last crusade against the Tau and it included 4 Imperial assassins only one of which returned. A tragic loss for the IoM. Assassins don't grow on trees even when your as big as the IoM. If it wasn't for the Techpriests bailing out the IoM and its crusade with a deus ex plot machina and the first ever (that I know of) super Exterminatus it would have been a total massacre and conquest of the Damocles Gulf which would put them on Ultramars doorstep.

Where they would finally hit someone with better plot armour than them, rather than random Imperial Worlds #12352.

The Imperium still holds the Gilded Worlds, and the Damocles Gulf is a non factor now. The only things the Imperium really cared about in the area.

Oh, and they made Agrellan completely worthless on the way out, too.

The Tau's advance was completely halted, Shadowsun is confined to a Ghostkeel for life, Aun'va is dead, Farsight has to run off and lick his wounds, and a few of his elites are dead. The Tau general public are actually sick of conquest at the moment, and morale in the Empire is at an all time low.

The Imperium, on the other hand, has lost nothing of value (except perhaps Chapter Master no name, but that needed to happen eventually for Shrike).

Clearly it was a glorious day for the Tau Empire!

And a 'Large Imperial Crusade' is still nothing compared to the forces they have sitting around actually important areas. The Eastern Fringe is a back water compared to the rest of the Galaxy.

And, Imperial High Command only retreated because it was taking too long, as they had a strict timetable. It's not like the Tau exhausted the Imperial Forces, they just held on long enough for the Imperium to go do something more important.

EDIT: Also, If i had to pick a faction that did the least for me in this setting, I would have to give it to the Dark Eldar. Maybe the White Scars can do it, get their Primarch back, a big glorious battle in the streets of Commorragh...

 Pouncey wrote:
Faction, not just Codex?

Imperium. The lore already exists that the Golden Throne's on the verge of going under. When that happens, Terra disappears and the Imperium loses its ability to travel between systems. Supplies and reinforcements can no longer be delivered, and the Imperium crumbles to dust in short order.

 Imateria wrote:
The Imperium of Man.

I'm fine with most of the factions frankly, my problem is how the IOM is all friendly with everyone. I agree with Pouncey, kill the Emperah finally, even if it is something as anticlimatic as being destroyed via asteroid. Keep the factions, but make them all Allies of Convienence, which should be the default alliance level anyway. (and I'm saying this as a Knight owner and someone getting back into Guard), with BB reserved for faction\faction

vyse.04 wrote:
I think most factions could hold their own in the WH40k Universe... \\ I do not think GW should get rid of them... Or any faction..

preach it, brother

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Lore wise the easiest faction to get rid of is the tau, they are about a crusade or a hive fleet away from being a memory.

There have been two crusades, one very recent, both with the goal of wiping Tau out completely. Both failed. So apparently not that "easy".

Oh but that's just bad writing/plot armor, so never mind that. But all the other 40k fluff is gospel.

by all means, get rid of the Tau, then all tau would become FSE. . .

 Peregrine wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
If not that, I think I'd be forced to say Tau. I like their fiction and I like their models but thematically they seem the most out of place. Sometimes it feels like GW was tired of Marines triumphing over "evil" and created the Tau just so someone could win out over the "evil" Imperium, and that someone had to be seemingly less evil.

The Tau are only "less evil" because pretty much anything is less evil than the Imperium. In any other setting they'd be the generic Evil Empire, complete with obvious references to some pretty horrible real-world stuff like colonialism and manifest destiny. And really, this is what makes them so effective as part of the grimdark of 40k. The bright and shining hope for good in the setting is an aggressive xenos empire that is really only "good" because they're pragmatic enough to allow you to surrender and be enslaved instead of mindlessly killing you, and to use science and engineering to build a better gun to kill you with if you refuse. It's the ultimate demonstration of 40k's black and dark gray morality, and it's unfortunate that people don't bother to pay attention to the fluff before complaining about how the Tau don't have enough skulls everywhere.

I generally think of the Tau Empire as something along the lines of North Korea. To themselves they seem to be shining beacons in the darkness while to the rest of the world they are a joke. The only reason that the First World nations haven't steamrolled over them is that it isn't worth it, and it would de-focus them from what they consider to be a true threat - each other. I mean, look at their, 'Oh look, we might have nuclear weapons \\ we have intercontinental ballistic missiles,' (that cannot hit continents) 'could you kindly send us some food?'

The only faction I don't really understand is the Ad Mech. Why are they fighting? Shouldn't they just be toiling away making gak for everyone else?
I'm sure it's addressed in their fluff, but I care so little about them that I'll never read it.

In terms of game play, Imperial Knights. They're just not fun to play against. I'm ok with them in an Apoc game, but in regular 40K it's just too much.

Hi guys and gals. Permit me to clarify the basis of the thread if you will. I didn't want to create one which was going to forment hate for faction A or B, I was just interested to see if one faction was going to get it in order for the plot to advance then who would people accept as a necessary loss.

Please keep it civil chaps and chapettes.

Thanks

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Hi guys and gals. Permit me to clarify the basis of the thread if you will. I didn't want to create one which was going to forment hate for faction A or B, I was just interested to see if one faction was going to get it in order for the plot to advance then who would people accept as a necessary loss.

Please keep it civil chaps and chapettes.

Thanks

.
and I'll say it again. . . the Emperor. It doesn't require the 'squatting' of another race or army, but rather forces a breakup of the IOM. As long as they can no longer ally at BB level, I'm fine with most stuff staying as it is.

 carldooley wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Hi guys and gals. Permit me to clarify the basis of the thread if you will. I didn't want to create one which was going to forment hate for faction A or B, I was just interested to see if one faction was going to get it in order for the plot to advance then who would people accept as a necessary loss.

Please keep it civil chaps and chapettes.

Thanks

.
and I'll say it again. . . the Emperor. It doesn't require the 'squatting' of another race or army, but rather forces a breakup of the IOM. As long as they can no longer ally at BB level, I'm fine with most stuff staying as it is.

It effectively wipes out the IG and Militarum Tempestus.

Blood angels, space wolves, dark angels and any other chapter that gets its own codex because it has a few bitz stuck to its marines.

I'd like to see some imperial factions get wiped out, they have half of the in game armies currently. Maybe destroy the Rock and finish the wolves, or have the sisters of battle finally get the axe. A chaos god getting killed would also be an interesting development. A beacon of hope to be drowned out by the knowledge that the remaining three will be even harder to put down.

GW iced Slaanesh in Fantasy. Sorta.

And yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing the Wolfs go - there are plenty enough SMs and CSMs.

But really, still don't like the Necrons.

I wouldn't want to axe a faction because if somebody likes it, they should play them. People hate on Tyranids and Tau, but I know two people who started playing the game because they loved the aesthetics and play style.

I would be down with a streamlining, however. I think all SM can be brought into one large codex with different flavors. I despise what the SW have become (saying that when they were my first army). Instead of being space vikings, you've now got ridiculous wulfen being used in a military manner, powered armored SM riding f'ing wolves, and the Stormfang, with as much aerodynamic prowess as a cinder block.

I think the Inquisition can be made into one faction. Ordo Xenos Army? Take Deathwatch. Ordo Malleus? Grey Knights. Ordo Hereticus? Unlock SoB.

I also think CSM can be given more flavors, similar to SM chapter tactics. But, I would also like to see CSM combined with R&H, since you very rarely see an entire army of CSM in the field. That way, you could be more like the Alpha Legion with just a command squad of CSM advising an insurgent army or an all-CSM IW force. Or combine CSM and R&H for a large warband.

They did not ice slaanesh at all, s/hes just is getting a makeover.

tneva82 wrote:

10penceman wrote:
All space marines why because I think the game revolves round them to much and if they are gone then just maybe other races might get a bit more love. Or at the very least just one book that's it and one range of models.

Just think with the amount of time spent on marines there could be an entire sisters of battle army plus new sculpts for alot of other side so I so down with the marines

Of course that would mean game would die as it wouldn't sell enough.

Players want space marines, GW sells space marines

I'd rephrase that to players buy Space Marines,GW sells Space Marines.
From what gets said around most forums GW doesn't give a damn what players 'want'.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

10penceman wrote:
All space marines why because I think the game revolves round them to much and if they are gone then just maybe other races might get a bit more love. Or at the very least just one book that's it and one range of models.

Just think with the amount of time spent on marines there could be an entire sisters of battle army plus new sculpts for alot of other side so I so down with the marines

Of course that would mean game would die as it wouldn't sell enough.

Players want space marines, GW sells space marines

I'd rephrase that to players buy Space Marines,GW sells Space Marines.
From what gets said around most forums GW doesn't give a damn what players 'want'.

From the conversation I had with the guy at my local GW it seemed more they don't know what players want. He argued that Space Marines are given more support than things like Sisters because Space Marines sell more. Didn't seem to like the idea Sisters don't sell because they were neglected and managed as badly as the Emperor managed his children.

Then there's also GW's open admission that they don't do research.

Edit add; OK yeah on topic. I suppose Tau has had their "fifteen" as reprentatIves of the odd tiny empire that popcorn's up and gets eaten. Let the Nids eat them and start up a new representative. A sapient race of bipedal ratvermin that are the unexpected offspring of humans and dark elder. Grimdark?

Necrons. Boring fluff, boring models, and boring rules.

Knights can go too. Superheavies should be Apoc only.