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Do Eldar Warlock powers count as minor psychic powers?  On one hand this seems to be in keeping with what minor psychic powers usually are, but on the other hand, as far as I can tell, there is no reference whatsoever to "major" or "minor" powers in the Eldar codex.

I am specifically interested in the veil of tears.  Also, I would like to clarify what it means for an enemy unit to "wish" to target the Harlequins (see the distinction between choices b and c, below).

Example: Sisters of Battle have a special rule that allows them to nullify psychic powers that target them on a D6 role of 5+.  Minor powers targeting the Sisters are nullified automatically.  If a unit of Sisters tries to shoot at a unit of Harlequins including a Shadowseer, what should happen?

a)  The veil of tears counts as a minor psychic power and is nullified.  The Sisters may shoot at the Harlequins without testing for spotting.
b)  The veil of tears does not count as a minor psychic power.  The unit of Sisters may attempt to nullify the power with a roll of 5+ since it affects them at all times.  After determining whether or not the veil of tears is nullified, the unit may choose a unit to target for shooting.
c)  The veil of tears does not count as a minor psychic power.  The unit of Sisters is only affected by the power after they choose to target the Harlequins, so if they attempt to nullify it, they may shoot only at the Harlequins, regardless of whether or not the nullification succeeded.

I favor option (c).  My opinion is that while it might have been consistent for GW to label the Warlock powers as minor powers, they did not do this, so Warlock powers do not qualify as minor powers.  "Wishing" to target the Harlequins  means "attempting" to target them, so a unit is not affected by the veil of tears until it chooses to target the Harlequins.  A Sisters unit that tries to nullify the power is therefore committed to shooting at the Harlequins.

I think I'm right, but I've encountered at least one player who insists upon interpretation (a).  What do you think?

Unless it clearly states that it's a 'minor' psychic power then it's not.

Warlock powers are always on and are not minor per the Eldar Codex as is the upgrade for a Shadowseer coming with Veil of Tears..  In any event, the Veil is very much like GK's powers, and I do not believe they are nullifed either.  Veil has changed but it used to only effects harlies in obscuring them.  The sisters are not the target of the veil, and thus do not nullify it imo.  By the wording of the Eldar Codex the power now sows fear and confuses the enemy unit wishing to target the Harlies.  So if the SoB player chooses to target the Harlies then they can try to nullify it on a 5+, pass or fail they shoot only the harlies.  If they pass normal sight is used, should they fail then roll the d6 and see if you still are in range.  I would also have to look at the rules for SoB doing the powers to make them do the power before nullifying the Harlie powers.

That is my initial thoughts, again not sure on the order of SoB spirit of the matyr and other blessings, but certainly I would choose to only shoot at close range and ignore them with all the groovy powers SoB have to win or tie up a combat.

I'll have to double check the wording, but I believe that the veil targets the harliquins, not the people trying to attack them (sort of like conceal). If that is in deed the case, it doesn't matter if the power if minor or not (and it isn't listed as minor, it isn't minor) since it isn't targeting the sisters at all.

Someone with the codex handy want to post the exact wording of the veil?

I think VoT does indeed target the enemy unit, not the Harlies.

"The Shadowseer uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe. Any enemy unit wishing to target the Shadowseer or the unit she is with must roll.."

Yeah after I read it my argument had less power so I redid it to say it does target the SoB in this case according to the new VoT, the old one was targetting and cast on Harlies.

But, my point is still the same, its not a minor power so only 5+ then I would wager.

Eldar have no “minor powers”.

Veil of Tears DOES affect enemy units, so is affected by the SoB protection from psychic powers.

EDIT: WHOOPS!  Sorry about that typo.

Time-->Tears

Its the little things like this that makes sisters players wonder what all the hub-bub surrounding harlies is about...

GT Chicago and GT LA did not allow sisters to nullify the harlies tears. In chicago it was explained that the power is on for the harlies if they have a seer and does not target any specific unit and that this was just a fluff description. I don't know how well this holds up but that is how it was played.

Orion

Posted By shirou on 09/13/2007 2:42 PM
I think VoT does indeed target the enemy unit, not the Harlies.

"The Shadowseer uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe. Any enemy unit wishing to target the Shadowseer or the unit she is with must roll.."

By that wording, it would directly affect the unit of Harlies, not the sisters. You're targeting the unit of Harlies, not any unit that might want to shoot them.

"confuse and terrify the enemy unit" "Any enemy unit wishing to target... ...must roll"

The enemy are certainly being affected by this one. It's not like Conceal, which just gives the unit a cover save.

Alright, let's look at this another way. Do you specifically pick an enemy unit to target? No. It's placed on the Harlies. The only time it affects enemy units is if they shoot at the unit.

If the OP's wording is correct, the sister's power only works if their squad is specifically targeted. Which in this case, it's not. The unit is being affected, but not targeted.

IIRC, the original poster's wording is wrong. He's paraphrasing. The sisters rules actually say that any psychic powers AFFECTING them can be nullified. Otherwise I'd agree with you.

Anyone got the WH codex handy so they can quote it?

Found my book.

"Psychic powers targeted against any unit or character...or including them in its area of effect, are nulliified..."

So that may still be up for debate, at least the way I read it. When it says area of effect, I think of FotD. The sisters aren't affected unless they shoot at them. If they can nullify it, at what point are they within its area of effect?

The area of effect is everywhere that has line of sight to the Harlies since every unit that has LOS to them is effected by it.

Also, does anyone have an example of a 'minor psychic power' in 4th Ed?  Just curious because I don't think the old 3rd Ed list that came out (in WD I think) is valid anymore.

Where does it say the power affects all units in line of sight?

And what list are you talking about?

Posted By Phausi on 09/22/2007 12:24 AM
Where does it say the power affects all units in line of sight?

And what list are you talking about?

Erm...  IIRC any unit that wishes to target the Harlies must check sight distance (Veil of Tears effect).  In order to target the Harlies you must have LOS to them (excepting Ord.)- basic shooting rules.  Are you suggesting that there is a situation in which a unit has LOS to the Harlies, but DOES NOT have to test for sight distance (per the Veil of Tears)???  If you are then you are my new favorite Eldar player and I will be right over for a game...

The list I'm talking about is the Minor Psychic Powers list I described.  If you don't know what I'm talking about then you probably can't help with my question.

Back on topic... my opinion is option C of the OP's original question.

Posted By Beast on 09/22/2007 5:39 AM

.  Are you suggesting that there is a situation in which a unit has LOS to the Harlies, but DOES NOT have to test for sight distance (per the Veil of Tears)??? 

Sure...When the unit doesn't want to fire at the harlies

Posted By Beast on 09/22/2007 5:39 AM

Posted By Phausi on 09/22/2007 12:24 AM
Where does it say the power affects all units in line of sight?

And what list are you talking about?

Erm...  IIRC any unit that wishes to target the Harlies must check sight distance (Veil of Tears effect).  In order to target the Harlies you must have LOS to them (excepting Ord.)- basic shooting rules.  Are you suggesting that there is a situation in which a unit has LOS to the Harlies, but DOES NOT have to test for sight distance (per the Veil of Tears)???  If you are then you are my new favorite Eldar player and I will be right over for a game...

The list I'm talking about is the Minor Psychic Powers list I described.  If you don't know what I'm talking about then you probably can't help with my question.

Back on topic... my opinion is option C of the OP's original question.

VoT requires the unit to check spotting distance. A concept that isn't the same as checking for line of sight (just like rolling for night fight spotting distance is a different concept from drawing LOS).

And there are most certainly a few cases where Harlies can be "fired" at without VoT being able to protect them: Vibro-Cannons and Fury of the Ancients (neither of which target an actual unit).


FYI, there are no more official minor powers left in 40k unless you're still using the CA minor power rules from the last annual. Personally I'm pretty dubious about using any CA rules that aren't also found on the website as it makes it impossible for anyone who doesn't already own the rules to find them.

Posted By yakface on 09/22/2007 7:10 AM
VoT requires the unit to check spotting distance. A concept that isn't the same as checking for line of sight (just like rolling for night fight spotting distance is a different concept from drawing LOS).

FYI, there are no more official minor powers left in 40k unless you're still using the CA minor power rules from the last annual. Personally I'm pretty dubious about using any CA rules that aren't also found on the website as it makes it impossible for anyone who doesn't already own the rules to find them.

yak-  I agree that checking spotting distance is not precisely the same thing as LOS as you pointed out.  However, in order to 'spot' something in the first place (in MOST instances) you must be able to draw a LOS to it.   The very definition of 'spotting distance' requires that you are physically able to 'spot' it (aka-see it... aka- LOS)  I agree that there are exceptions as you mentioned, but the issue I was addressing was the "area of effect" of VoT.  Do you have a better answer to that than what I said?  I am open to it if you can explain why (in the majority of instances) LOS does not equate to the area of effect in this case.  Every unit that has LOS to the Harlies is effected by the VoT.  That fact constitutes at least part of the area of effect.  That may not be the complete answer, but I'm not sure you can refute the fact that every unit that has LOS to them is effected by VoT. 

I also agree that the CA minor psychic powers from 3rd Ed should no longer be valid in 4th Ed.  I don't and have never used minor powers.  I guess the reference to them in DH & WH codeci is a holdover from 3rd Ed.

If you read the powers Conceal and VOT, you'll find they are almost identical in how they are written: fluff descriptive followed by game mechanic. Conceal: the power creates a cloud, blah blah blah... - game mechanic is a 5+ cover save to all incoming fire. VoT: power confuses the enemy, blah blah blah... - game mechanic: unit shooting must check spotting distance Xd6.

Personally the long and the short of it is that the Sister's power does not come into play with VoT. There was a long-winded arguement at 40konline regarding this issue.

- The SoB are not 'targeted' by the power (like Mind War, Holocaust, among others)
- The SoB are not in an area of affect (ie. the blast radius of Holocaust, or FotD)
- The arguement for it is based on a fluff descriptive of the power, not the game mechanic applied

Otherwise you get the following if the Harlies are even remotely the closest unit. In this example, a Wave Serpent is somewhere behind a unit of Harlies.

- The unit must roll 5+ to ignore the Harlies (VoT), otherwise they have to take a target priority test
- SoB passes. They can shoot the Wave Serpent - OR
- SoB fails. They now must shoot the Harlies
- The unit must roll 2D6x2 to see the Harlies
- Now you must to roll 5+, once again, to ignore this element of VoT
- SoB passes. They can shoot the Harlies without penalty - OR
- SoB fails. They now can't see the Harlies.
- But wait, another unit of SoB are within LoS. Why can't they help out and throw a dice roll in there to help out? They are apparently in the Area too - not 'targetted,' but within the AoE (just like a psyhood is 'in the area' by being on the table with another enemy psychic trying to use a power).

This isn't Magic. We aren't meant to roll several times per turn on the same powers or have counter-effects for interrupts and the like.

;francois

Beast:

No. Every unit that wishes to target it is.

That is what we are talking about... I thought that was patently obvious and not even worth stipulating....

francois-
Your post makes my brain hurt (no fault of yours- I'm just tired), but from what I can gather, you say that SoB are not able to cancel VoT by their 5+ roll. I think you are wrong. If the SoB unit is in the VoT Area of Effect, and they are actually effected by it (which they most certainly are), then their rules states they can cancel it. I will quote the SoB Shield of Fath rule:

"Psychic power targeted against any unit or character with the Adepta Sororitas special rule, or including them in its area of effect, are nullified and will not work on a D6 roll of 5+ (roll once for each power, even if it affects several Adepta Sororitas unit)."

Note the added clarification "or including them in its area of effect" that they used. So... If a SoB unit is within LoS of the Harlies, then they are within the Area of Effect (VoT effects them). If they are within the Area of Effect (aka- effected by the VoT), then the Shield of Faith rule states they may nullify it on a D6 roll of 5+. (assuming they want to shoot at the Harlies- just clarifying for you t-C)

I seems very clear to me and completely backed by RAW. Anyone have dissenting arguments based on the rules?

Now the question becomes, if the Sob unit has nullified the power, is it nullified for all other units or only that one unit? Only for Adepta Sororitas units? What about allies, Inquisitors, etc...

Grrrrr, silly 'Add Reply' button...... <shrug> Onwards.

This debate really comes down to semantics and how the english wording is read. Beast (and others in support), I understand where the argument comes from, the wording of the SoB rule (Shield of Faith) "targeted against" and "including them in its area of effect." These are two mutually exclusive elements of the rule but clutter the issue.

Targeted Against: The SoB unit is not 'targeted' by the VoT power. The fluff descriptive says something to this effect but then so does Conceal, and a number of other powers; in no cases does SoF come into play. The SoB unit targets the Harlies, the game mechanic forces them to role for spotting distance. This is not targeting them, just a game mechanic. Grey Knights and the sniper assassin both have similar mechanics.

Area of Affect: There is no definition of AoE; none. That said, previous rulings and errata from GW all point to the simplest solution being the one they adopt. In this case, I would claim templates (blast, flame, ordnance powers like Holocaust and Destructor), powers that specify ranges and mechanics that function like shooting attacks (ie. Mind War, Doombolt, FotD) to be the 'AoE.' This is a more restrictive reading; it is also more in line with their rules and much easier to impliment (please, no RAW vs RAI flames, there is another thread on this).

The alternative is much too broad. All units in LOS, whether they target the Harlies or not, must roll to negate the power because of the second part of VoT, (paraphrased) "units may alternatively ignore the Harlies for purposes of target priority tests." This part of VoT applies to every single enemy unit in LOS. If you are affected by one part of VoT, you have to accept all of it. This is where it gets silly. If all units are in LOS, all units act as a limited version of the Psyhood. SoB unit A tries to shoot the Harlies; they roll for SoF. If they fail, technically each unit in LOS could try to negate the power because they are in the broadly defined 'AoE.' That's too loose an interpretation of Area of Effect for me. By extension, what's to stop a Sisters player to claim the tabletop is an AoE and roll nearaby units' SoF to stop Mind War, FotD, etc. on other units in the army?

;francois

Posted By f.desrochers on 09/26/2007 5:27 AM

The alternative is much too broad. All units in LOS, whether they target the Harlies or not, must roll to negate the power because of the second part of VoT, (paraphrased) "units may alternatively ignore the Harlies for purposes of target priority tests." This part of VoT applies to every single enemy unit in LOS. If you are affected by one part of VoT, you have to accept all of it. This is where it gets silly. If all units are in LOS, all units act as a limited version of the Psyhood. SoB unit A tries to shoot the Harlies; they roll for SoF. If they fail, technically each unit in LOS could try to negate the power because they are in the broadly defined 'AoE.' That's too loose an interpretation of Area of Effect for me. By extension, what's to stop a Sisters player to claim the tabletop is an AoE and roll nearaby units' SoF to stop Mind War, FotD, etc. on other units in the army?

;francois

Actually, you are mistaken.  Re-read the last part of the SoF rule I quoted.  It specifically says only one roll is made (per power) no matter how many Adepta Sororitas units are effected.  I agree with you that the SoB are not targetted (as such) by VoT.  (Targetting is a function within the shooting process)  They are however, clearly effected by it and are therefore within its AoE.  If they were not within its AoE then they would be able to target and shoot at the harlies without any restriction.  I never said that all units are in LoS.  But those units that ARE in LoS are clearly effected by VoT if they wish to shoot at the Harlies.  In this case, they are clearly within the AoE.  There is no semantic confusion (except perhaps on your part). 

The part of VoT rule that you mentioned about "units may alternativley ignore the Harlies for purposes of target priority tests..." is completely immaterial to this discussion, because we are talking about units that DO wish to target the Harlies.  You mentioned that if you are effected by one part of a rule then you must accept all of it.  This statement makes no sense.  If you are effected by one condition of a rule, it does not necessarily mean ALL the conditions of the rule effect you as well (they might not all apply to a particular situation).  But I digress... 

The rule for SoF is clear- if the SoB unit is within the area of effect of a psychic power, then they may attempt to nullify it.  Units that wish to shoot at Harlies are effected (thus within the AoE) by VoT if they have line of sight to them.  Therefore if a SoB unit is in LoS to the Harlies and wishes to shoot at them, then they may attempt to nullify the VoT.  It isn't difficult... There is NO great leap of logic here and (surprisingly) the wording is actually clear and simple.

Beast:

Unfortunately, some people are a little slow on the uptake and don't seem to realise the implications of this.

You know, people like yourself.



No. The power is not in effect at all until the player declares that a unit wishes to target the Harlies. Then, and only then, does VoT come into effect, and its' "area of effect" is the one unit that is currently trying to target it.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 09/26/2007 7:13 AM
Beast:

That is what we are talking about... I thought that was patently obvious and not even worth stipulating....

Unfortunately, some people are a little slow on the uptake and don't seem to realise the implications of this.

You know, people like yourself.

Note the added clarification "or including them in its area of effect" that they used. So... If a SoB unit is within LoS of the Harlies, then they are within the Area of Effect (VoT effects them).

No. The power is not in effect at all until the player declares that a unit wishes to target the Harlies. Then, and only then, does VoT come into effect, and its' "area of effect" is the one unit that is currently trying to target it.

t-C...   Are you being intentionally obtuse :thumbs down: or are you really not getting the idea that when we talk about a unit of SoB being effected by VoT, we are talking about a SoB unit that wishes to fire at the Harlies???   That is a condition of the VoT rule.  We all understand this condition, although apparently you want everyone to repeat it in every post. :thumbs down:   I have a hard time believing you are so dense (you seem more educated than that in your other posts ) that you can't grasp this even though I have mentioned this condition previously.  It is not worth repeating over and over and over and over again that we are talking about units wishing to fire at the Harlies.  This is understood (aka- parenthetically removed from future posts) and does not need repeating after the first time.  It is one of the premises of the topic we are discussing.  So in case you still don't get it....

In this discussion, I am talking about SoB units that wish to fire at the Harlequins....  If you are unclear on this then perhaps you should go back and read the entire thread again, and again until you understand that the point I am making is that a SoB unit that wishes to target/fire at the Harlies, and has LoS to them, is in fact within the VoT area of effect and can therefore attempt to nullify said power on a D6 roll of 5+ (per SoF rule) prior to firing at them... 

perhaps it would have been better if you had chosen the ENTIRE section that you quoted from me.. . I will paste it here in case you conveniently overlooked it... 

"Note the added clarification "or including them in its area of effect" that they used. So... If a SoB unit is within LoS of the Harlies, then they are within the Area of Effect (VoT effects them). If they are within the Area of Effect (aka- effected by the VoT), then the Shield of Faith rule states they may nullify it on a D6 roll of 5+. (assuming they want to shoot at the Harlies- just clarifying for you t-C) " 

So as you can see you chose to selectively pick out and misrepresent my words (are you a reporter by chance?) by ignoring the part that refutes what you want to say.  Note the highlighted part that you somehow managed not to see?  That is pretty despicable... :thumbs down: :thumbs down: :thumbs down:  But if that's the way you roll... then whatever.  Moving on...

When we write and speak in the English language, we often build upon the previous statements and conditions that have already been made and they don't need to be repeated every time we further our position.  Did you not learn this in grade school?  Absent that day maybe?  Aside from all this do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion or only inane comments that only show you have nothing of value to propose?

...end of sarcastic rant wrt t-C's sarcastic comment...

 

My further question was that once the VoT is nullified (by a SoB unit that wishes to target it- just in case you are still confused t-C), is the power nullified for all other units that wish to fire at the Harlies?  Only for other SoB units?  What about WH allies, Inquisitors?

"The part of VoT rule that you mentioned about "units may alternativley ignore the Harlies for purposes of target priority tests..." is completely immaterial to this discussion, because we are talking about units that DO wish to target the Harlies.  You mentioned that if you are effected by one part of a rule then you must accept all of it.  This statement makes no sense.  If you are effected by one condition of a rule, it does not necessarily mean ALL the conditions of the rule effect you as well (they might not all apply to a particular situation).  But I digress...  "

This does have value to this discussion, so lets look at it a different way. Would you agree that being able to ignore a harlie unit for target priority is something that affects your unit? I say yes to this, since normally units must make a priority test to shoot past the closest unit, but this power affects your unit so that it does not. That means (in the most restrictive form) that every unit that has the harlies as the closest target and wishes to shoot past the harlies, must roll to break the VoT and see if they need to make a target priority test. Though, if the VoT is broken, I do not see why a second test against VoT would need to be made as f.desrochers showed in his agrument. Once it is broken for a unit, I think it would stay broken.

The Wraith