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2000 Pts - Lizardmen Roster - Lizardmen

1 Slann Mage-Priest (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 660 Pts
2nd Generation; General; Battle Standard Bearer; Large Target
1 Plaque of Dominion @ [50] Pts
1 Plaque of Tepok @ [15] Pts
1 Diadem of Power @ [35] Pts
1 Totem of Prophecy @ [75] Pts
1 1. Fireball @ [0] Pts
1 1. Burning Gaze @ [0] Pts
1 1. Dark Hand of Death @ [0] Pts
1 0. Drain Magic @ [0] Pts

1 Skink Priest @ 65 Pts
Hand Weapon; Aquatic

30 ~[(^One or more selected options present a potential usage conflict]×~[(#]Temple Guard @ 561 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Shield; Scaly Skin

3 Kroxigor @ 174 Pts
Great Weapon; Aquatic; Causes Fear; Scaly Skin

3 Kroxigor @ 174 Pts
Great Weapon; Aquatic; Causes Fear; Scaly Skin

10 Skink Skirmishers @ 60 Pts
Hand Weapon; Blowpipe; Aquatic; Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers @ 60 Pts
Hand Weapon; Blowpipe; Aquatic; Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers @ 60 Pts
Hand Weapon; Blowpipe; Aquatic; Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers @ 60 Pts
Hand Weapon; Blowpipe; Aquatic; Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers @ 60 Pts
Hand Weapon; Blowpipe; Aquatic; Skirmishers

10 Skink Skirmishers @ 60 Pts
Hand Weapon; Blowpipe; Aquatic; Skirmishers

Total Roster Cost: 1994

So here's how the magic works.

First off, I get 5 dice for my Slaan.

I get 2 dice for the army.

After the first turn, I get 2 more dice for my magic phase.

All usable by the Slaan.

That's 9 dice.

I always have 3 fireball spells, and I usually spend my 2 extra spell slots to try and get more useful spells in the lore of fire.

So that's pretty much always 3 magic missiles, and a 4th damage spell.

Now let's see how 7 DD do against me.

I use 2+2+2+3 dice to roll my 4 damage spells.

Now remember, that means I actually cast like this:

2+1
2+1
2+1
3+1

So in effect, I'm casting 13 PD worth of spells.

Still comfy with those 2 scrolls and 7 DD?

Yeah, didn't think so. Those scrolls disappear first turn in most games.

Then it's all about making me miscast, right?

Right. I'm immune to miscasts.

So then it's about matching 2 of my spells with dice? Say a 2+1 and a 3+1?

Well everyone who's played fantasy knows it's really all about hoping I roll low(ish) with 2 dice and crushing me with 3 or 4.

Sadly, I don't roll that amount of dice.

So that means your DD have a good chance at crushing one of my spells, and might get lucky and get a 2nd but there's a good chance it won't.

So 3 damage spells a turn is what usually gets through turns 2-5.

Toss in the mass of blowdarts, and it's really a nasty list. I'm not even being a prick and running the 'official' armies Andy Hoare posted where you can spend a few points and really go crazy with your skinks lol.

See why I don't think much of dwarf anti-magic? Yes, it does work against most armies.

Just not mine.

I also have a very fun skaven list that's also totally upsetting for dwarf players, but it was built just to be 'fun' for me. Turns out it's not fun for my opponents, so it doesn't get used much. :(

Good thing I got that runic banner that gives most of my dwarves who are in range and sight of your spells a ward save vs magic missile spells for like 50pts. That will be really worth its points in this game thats for sure. I find it generally useful in most games but yeah like you said definitely better to have that than just relying on the old "dwarf distrust of magic" dispel dice.

Its the flying machines laying down their templates one or two a turn that really hurts this armies main block(i.e. the one with the slaan being the only important one until its dead).

Yeah that banner sucks. It's good, but against non-magic armies it's a drag on your points. Just like that missile fire banner. Works great sometimes, other times does nothing.

The flying machines don't scare me, I can shoot them down with poisoned hits. At least I think I can, been cheating alot if I can't. lol

My temple guard are pretty resilient. I think I was broken once by mass bret lance charges, but I managed to escape and rallied. Then I shot 'em all dead. lol

Actually that runic banner gives you the ward save against both magic missiles and the ranged attacks, thats why I like it and keep it in the army.

In terms of the flying machines most people don't get shots off at them because they can fly so far and fast over terrain. meaning they will get their templates at least once each on your temple guard which can be a real issue for them. It depends on what they get hit with right after that. Are they immune to psychology? If not then after suffering so many casualties that may become the issue. I seem to remember them being fearless or something so you are ok on that front, yeah. I guess the flying machines work best against other armies main blocks.

I'm not sure about the poison actually myself, because they are mostly treated as war machines. I'll have to reread the rules tonight to find out.

All in all looks like a fun list you got there. I have some old liz-men and was thinking of starting up an army of them. Maybe I'll give this a try, it seems like a decent low model count army for me since I have most of the skinks(but with bows...) already anyways.

Oh I have those skink models. GW seems to think I'd buy new skinks just to give them blowguns. Which'll be gone next book, and bows will be back. Not today! lol

Oh good, glad I'm not the only one with them. I wasn't really feeling like fielding a southern army just because my skinks have bows.

I'll comment the list and effectiveness against dwarves here from my pow, as it's starting to get a bit ot in the other thread.

I'll post a sample dwarf list here, which is pretty similiar to the stuff I see alot (and use) around these parts:

--------
Chars:
Runelord
Anvil,S,GW,RoStone,RoPreservation,RoResistance,RoSpellbreaking
-394
Thane - BSB
MRGromril,RoResistance
-140
Thane
GW,S,RoStone,RoBrotherhood,MRoChallenge
-121
---
Core:
21 Dwarf Warriors
Std,Mus,S
-204
20 Longbeards
FC,S
-265
10 Quarellers
S
-120
---
Special:
Bolt Thrower
Engineer,RoPenetrating,RoBurning
-90
Bolt Thrower
Engineer,RoPenetrating
-85
2xBolt Thrower
Engineer
-120
15 Miners
FC,Steamdrill
-215
---
Rare:
2xOrgan Gun
-240
-1994
--------

Firstly by not having the 2+ ward vs shooting, the Slann just made the game so much easier for the dwarves. As he has to be in 24 to get the spellcasting work effectively, I'll probably just castle up and shoot everything towards the frog (the frog, not the temple guard). If you hold him back and the skinks zip forwards, they'll fail panic test pretty easily outside the frogs command radius (mainly due 2xorgans and quarrelers shooting them, maybe even anvil if it's necessary.). One unit can also be dealt with the rune of challenge if the hero stays outta miners. It also doesn't take much to cripple 3 kroxigors so they won't threaten the blocks anyways. And yes, about the magic: I generally take granted that 2-3 fireballs will get through vs slann (especially 2nd gen), it's pretty much like shooting, and dwarfs don't sweat too much as they do have t4 and good armor. I'd probably need to be a bit careful with the quarrelers so they don't become prime target, though. I'll do fine by trying to dispel the more dangerous stuff such as pit and nasty lurker for example.

You'd make a life lot harder for dwarves by taking a jaguar scar vet to actually hunt for warmachines and taking that 2+ ws vs shooting, altough I'd reserve the right to take that ws vs shooting/magic banner in that case.

Well I usually fireball the warmachines down.

Takes a couple turns, then there's a dwarf horde.

So far I've seen one dwarf player actually move his army out to try and keep me out of range.

Then I told him I can shoot magic missiles out of close combat, and he packed his stuff up and called me a dill weed.



Agreed on the jag vet, I have one but I got sooo many complaints about the 18" charge and the 2+ ward save I gave up on both.

I'm just trying to learn fantasy, but I'd always heard that this game usu. doesn't have a shooting phase whre much happens. Sounds like your shoting phase is pretty busy stelek. Can you really get all that many kills with the skink blowpipes? Remember, I come from a 40k mindset, so I'm trying to make an adjustment. I count a unit of ten skinks (20 shots) as hitting with 3 poison hits=> 3 saves right there. I would imagine the rest of your hits won't amount to much, seeing as how you (PROBABLY) will be moving to get into range (or stay out of charge range) with those 12" pipes (-1), so are looking at 5's to hit, assuming no other modifiers. So, that's 3 hits additional to the poison 6's. Against run of the mill troops, you'll wound with 1.5 of the non poison hits, grand total of 4.5 wounds for oyur opponent to save. Depending on your opponents armour, you'll get a couple of kills there.

What am I missing? 2-3 kills against a block of 25 T3's doesn't sound like uber-shooting. Is this just setting the target up for a run through the jungle by the kroxigors, running through the skink formation to lend a hand (up on a flank to start turning it in?) ? A continual back-up-and-shoot?

I know I'm missing somehting here...

OK, so if you were to focus all 6 of the skink squads on a single flank, a couple of units, you are doing some damage to them then. I guess with the Slann's shooting, then you are doing something. Again, focusing everything on a couple of units on the flank; one unit if LOS lets you, more likely 2. Use the kroxigors to scrape off any fast movers that try to tie up your shooters.

Do you think that you can out-Asp the TK Khalida lists like this?

Do you use the skirmishing skinks for warmachine hunting? I wuld be thinking about salamanders for an added hook, and terradons for warmachine hunting, but that would take points away from the skinks. Cheap as they are, they seem they will only work in huge quantities.

Anything you can throw my way on "what I am missing", I woud appreciate. Thanks.

stelek remember your slaan an only have 100points of magic items. you have close to 200. also kroxigors at units of 3 are not really able to deal enough damage to an enemy unit on the charge to break them. all large creatures (on 40mm bases) should be in units 4, just to have that extra power to make the win

you can only ever have one spell once too. none of this same spell twice bollocks. anyway there are two magic missile spells that are basic to the lore of magic they are in (under death and fire) so you can take two magic missiles then, and the rest should be going for comet, and something like steed of shadows, as both can make the army super duper disgusting to play against.

also where's the other skink priest, you should have two in the list just to make the slaan dangerous all over the board at once.

Bastirous666 wrote:stelek remember your slaan an only have 100points of magic items. you have close to 200. also kroxigors at units of 3 are not really able to deal enough damage to an enemy unit on the charge to break them. all large creatures (on 40mm bases) should be in units 4, just to have that extra power to make the win

Try reading the lizard book. My army list is legal.

My Kroxigor aren't there to break enemy units.

Bastirous666 wrote:you can only ever have one spell once too. none of this same spell twice bollocks. anyway there are two magic missile spells that are basic to the lore of magic they are in (under death and fire) so you can take two magic missiles then, and the rest should be going for comet, and something like steed of shadows, as both can make the army super duper disgusting to play against.

also where's the other skink priest, you should have two in the list just to make the slaan dangerous all over the board at once.

Sigh. Obviously, I don't have the same spell 3 times. Do you even play fantasy? Everyone knows Slaan gets 3 fireball spells. They're called fireball, burning gaze, and dark hand of death.

Comet and steed of shadows. Right. I don't think you do play fantasy.

I rarely use the skink priest, and two is pointless.

right, forgot the totem was banner.

what are the kroxigors for then?

They are suicide units.

They do their damage, and they die.

Usually 1 round of combat is enough to reduce really dangerous units to less threatening numbers (knights and heavily armored ground pounders).

They do very well preventing people from charging directly at my main block. Come in and fail to charge, odds are I'll magic missile you to death. Charge, and odds are two Krox units on either side of you will beat your face in for your trouble.

They're also really good at just keeping some units away from me. Kroxigor are awesome units, they usually die but they almost always get the job done.

ok that makes total sense in that manner then. in my lizzies i use the krox more of a break unit. i run 2 units of 4 krox, and those can put in big dent in the normal rank and file blocks, they usually tie/lose the first round (with 5-6 kills) but stay and then win in the subsequent round freeing to go pound more stuff into the dirt. of course they usually are within 12" of my BSB so the reroll for Ld is what really allowes them to do all that.

I always wanted to test out a slaan, but i never pay much attention to the other lores of magic (quite obvious i think) as i only use skink priests and need to know lore of heavens, so i'd need to look at the other lores and get to know em' better before i do that.

all in all this list is shooty to the max, but why no sallies?

Bastirous666 wrote:all in all this list is shooty to the max, but why no sallies?

Because he has 500+ points invested into temple guard. They serve a purpose vs many opponents, but it's good to remember that taking 500+ point slow bodyguard unit which the slann has to join isn't certainly the only way to make (2nd gen) Slann list.

Nope it isn't. You can run him with the 2+ ward save by himself without any blocks and run a bunch of cavalry. Quite effective from what I've seen.

Is this list built specifically to fight dwarves?

Brets, Skaven, Cav Chaos, VC, and Greenskins should all be unbeatable if played by a competent general. This list is so one dimensional I can't see it working against any but the most inexperienced players running their own one dimensional lists.

What am I missing here? 2nd gen slann are great at pumping out magic missiles, which are good against about half the things in the game. Generally the rest of the lizardman army is geared toward dealing with what MMs can't, but in this list there's nothing that can do much of anything but wait to get charged by something faster.

(And I also run a 2nd gen slann list and never lost a single tournament game with it, so I'm very familiar with how it works)

Nope.

Sadly we're only one dimensional players here in Utah, who I bully with my own one dimensional lists.

Guess you figured us all out.

Heeyup, sure did.

Am I missing something here? You posted a list on the forum. It's a crap list, but perhaps it's just designed to play against some specific opponent. I don't know, and that's why I asked.

here's my two bits, drop the krox in lue of more blocks of saurus, and drop 10 of the temple guard too, as having a total of 24 (including the slaan) makes 4 ranks of 6 which is the idea number for saurus in my experience. other than that i got nothing else without completely changing the list.

It does so poorly and is so easily beaten by the half-monkeys I apparently play yet no one expresses much interest in playing it.

I've had quite a few out-of-state people comment on it's bs factor being quite high when I've pulled it out, but what do they know.

They must be related to the local half-monkeys.

We're all noobs in Utah, after all.

And I'm just da bully.

Stelek wrote:It does so poorly and is so easily beaten by the half-monkeys I apparently play yet no one expresses much interest in playing it.

I've had quite a few out-of-state people comment on it's bs factor being quite high when I've pulled it out, but what do they know.

They must be related to the local half-monkeys.

We're all noobs in Utah, after all.

And I'm just da bully.

While that may be true, the list is still horribly one dimensional.

Just want to make sure that anyone who isn't already familiar with your work realizes this sort of list won't do well.

Well thank you for pointing out to everyone that my unbeaten lizardman list sucks donkey nuts.

Not sure if the implication of my work also generally sucking donkey nuts is what is intended or not.

*shrug*

For what it's worth, I freely admit I'm not the uberest at Fantasy.

Still, I've won several RTT's with this list and it's never been beaten since I finalized it.

Ah well, back to being a bully.

@ mauleed: I've asked some questions in this thread, and I'm curious to see where you would take a 2nd gen Slann list, if you wouldn't mind sharing. Got any input on where you would go with this?

@stelek: I'm NOT a fantasy player, and yes I AM reading the rule book (I know someone is going to toss that one at me at some point here, so now the air has been cleared) but it's 127 pages, takes a while. However, I have some observations about your list I would hope you could help me clear up. I'm curious as to how you deal with high toughness models, and the inevitable 2+ armour save models. Seems like the skinks would have a hard time shooting these up. Any helpful commentary?

Armor can be dealt with via Slann and Kroxigor. Read the Lore of Metal, it hates Bretonnians.

Plus enough saves taken means eventually something dies.

The two Krox units can usually gut a knight unit each.

The temple guard grind away more knight units than you might think, once the knights are done with the charge and lose [and most flee at that point] the turn after if I can't catch them they're not doing anything for a turn.

Sometimes my skinks don't do much of anything vs knight armies, but given the removal of most effective knight army builds from the game [excluding Bretonnia] I'm not that worried. Almost all of my magic causes S4 hits, so Bretonnians get a reduced save without triggering the 5+ crap. Everyone else usually has a base 3+ save, and do enough missiles they die. The days of huge ranked knight units are over [too many armies can take the charge and break your 800 point unit nowadays] in my opinion.

High toughness models are usually killable by the Kroxigors and my magic, but don't forget the skinks all have poisoned attacks so it doesn't take much to bring down high toughness given alot of those units have crap armor saves. Those that have high toughness, high wounds, 2+ armor saves, and ward saves? Yeah, that's the other guys army. Not hard to zap dead with one round of magic missiles, really. Toss in 20-40 poison shots and it's not hard to kill much of anything.

Keep this in mind:

I have 5 spells on my Slaan.

I almost always take at least one of them in:

Lore of Fire, Lore of Light, and Lore of Death.

I then have 2 more spells.

Usually I put them into Lore of Fire, or Lore of Death.

If I really want to, I can put all 5 spells into one Lore that really hurts a particular army.

Which can be pretty much every lore.

Some favorites:

Conflagration of Doom,. You get owned if I roll better than you twice. If I roll better than you more than twice, that unit is usually toast.

Creeping Death. All the 6's I roll to wound on 3D6, take a ward save or you die. Great fun.

Pit of shades. Drop this on anything, it scares them to death. Blows knights away, especially Bretonnian ones.
Sorry, no save! Just dead.

The Beast Cowers. Awwww...you can't charge me this turn. Stand there and take the missile fire.

Dazzling Brightness. Oh, you have high WS? Now you don't.

Drain Life, zap D6 S3 hits no save.

There are lots and lots of ways to smash every army with the Slaan. I usually just go for magic missiles x3 + 1 or 2 damage spells and zap 'em to death. The only safe place is in close combat, but my skinks and krox will run away leaving you only 1 place to go--into the temple guard. Why do I want you there? So you can't shoot or magic me anymore, and while you try to get past the 3D6 take the two lowest LD8 with a re-roll on my guard...I'll blow the rest of your army up with my Slaan.

But hey, mauleed says it's a crappy one dimensional list.

Let's see:

Big block of (virtually) unbreakable troops, that cause fear.

Mage that can magic missile you to death even when his unit is locked in combat. 3D6 dice for every 5+ magic missile, ignores all miscasts. 4D6 dice for a big damage spell. Every turn.

60 skinks that skirmish and will gladly run from everything but flying units (who are always low model count, low toughness, and/or low armor saves) and if you are charging a dragon at my skinks I must admit you're probably not going to win.

High str attacks for pesky units my magic missiles are bouncing off of? Why yes, I have that. 9 WS3 S7 attacks. You really want to charge my block with those knights? Well I'll gladly kill it with a krox unit, let you beat one with your countercharge, and then I'll countercharge you with the other. You're going to ignore my block and take on the Krox? Good luck with that strategy. Yes, I can tell exactly how far away your knights are, how far and where my kroxigor need to be so if you charge my skinks you can't charge the krox nor get past them without rolling crazy high (which means I'll just turn my Krox towards you, and you can either take the charge next turn or move away from me--which is fine by me), and lastly I have absolutely no problem sacrificing my skink units to slow you down long enough for me to magic missile you to death.

Are there foils and counters to this army? Of course.

Have I lost with this army since I made it (about 2 years ago)? No, I have not.

So let's see:

I don't claim to be very good at fantasy, but I am very good at 40K fantasy...which most people aren't used to.

Do all the Utah fantasy players suck (possible)? Well, there's also the ones around the country I've spanked with this army. Maybe they were all from Utah too.

I don't think much of fantasy as a game system, so I generally make armies that break all the rules of fantasy so while my opponent might be playing fantasy I on the other hand am not.

You should see my Skaven assassin army list. Yeah, people hate that army too.