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Just a pair of example lists for Jayden, showing how tau scale. I don't remember how many tau models you actually have, so not sure what you can or cannot build.

==========================================================

2500 Pts - Tau Empire Roster - Tau 2500 (Mech)

1 Commander Shas'el @ 87 Pts
Cyclic Ion Blaster; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Hard-wired Target Lock; Twin Linked Burst Cannon

8 Fire Warrior @ 265 Pts
Add Shas'ui; Pulse Carbine (x8)
1 Devilfish @ [140] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Sensor Spines; Targeting Array
1 Shas'ui @ [45] Pts
Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Pulse Carbine; Gun Drone
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

8 Fire Warrior @ 265 Pts
Add Shas'ui; Pulse Carbine (x8)
1 Devilfish @ [140] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Sensor Spines; Targeting Array
1 Shas'ui @ [45] Pts
Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Pulse Carbine; Gun Drone
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

8 Fire Warrior @ 265 Pts
Add Shas'ui; Pulse Carbine (x8)
1 Devilfish @ [140] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Sensor Spines; Targeting Array
1 Shas'ui @ [45] Pts
Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Pulse Carbine; Gun Drone
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

8 Fire Warrior @ 265 Pts
Add Shas'ui; Pulse Carbine (x8)
1 Devilfish @ [140] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Sensor Spines; Targeting Array
1 Shas'ui @ [45] Pts
Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Pulse Carbine; Gun Drone
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

7 Pathfinder @ 261 Pts
Add Shas'ui; Markerlight (x7); Pulse Carbine (x7)
1 Devilfish @ [130] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Marker Beacon; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array
1 Shas'ui @ [47] Pts
Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Markerlight; Pulse Carbine; Gun Drone
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

7 Pathfinder @ 261 Pts
Add Shas'ui; Markerlight (x7); Pulse Carbine (x7)
1 Devilfish @ [130] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Marker Beacon; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array
1 Shas'ui @ [47] Pts
Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Markerlight; Pulse Carbine; Gun Drone
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

7 Pathfinder @ 261 Pts
Add Shas'ui; Markerlight (x7); Pulse Carbine (x7)
1 Devilfish @ [130] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Marker Beacon; Multi-Tracker; Targeting Array
1 Shas'ui @ [47] Pts
Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Markerlight; Pulse Carbine; Gun Drone
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

1 Hammerhead Gunship @ 190 Pts
Railgun; Two Burst Cannons; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Sensor Spines; Target Lock; Targeting Array

1 Hammerhead Gunship @ 190 Pts
Railgun; Two Burst Cannons; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Sensor Spines; Target Lock; Targeting Array

1 Hammerhead Gunship @ 190 Pts
Railgun; Two Burst Cannons; Disruption Pod; Flechette Discharger; Landing Gear; Multi-Tracker; Sensor Spines; Target Lock; Targeting Array

Total Roster Cost: 2500

==========================================================

Here's the suit version.

2500 Pts - Tau Empire Roster - Tau Suits

1 Commander Shas'el @ 299 Pts
Hard-wired Blacksun Filter; Hard-wired Drone Controller; Crisis Bodyguard; Crisis Bodyguard; Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
1 Crisis Bodyguard @ [97] Pts
Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
1 Crisis Bodyguard @ [92] Pts
Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

1 Commander Shas'el @ 296 Pts
Hard-wired Drone Controller; Crisis Bodyguard; Crisis Bodyguard; Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Multi-Tracker
1 Crisis Bodyguard @ [97] Pts
Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
1 Crisis Bodyguard @ [92] Pts
Hard-wired Multi-tracker; Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Plasma Rifle; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

1 Crisis Battlesuit @ 198 Pts
Team Leader; Crisis Battlesuit; Crisis Battlesuit; Bonding Knife; Gun Drone; Twin Linked Missile Pod; Drone Controller
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ [63] Pts
Gun Drone; Twin Linked Missile Pod; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ [62] Pts
Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Drone Controller; Target Lock
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

1 Crisis Battlesuit @ 198 Pts
Team Leader; Crisis Battlesuit; Crisis Battlesuit; Bonding Knife; Gun Drone; Twin Linked Missile Pod; Drone Controller
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ [63] Pts
Gun Drone; Twin Linked Missile Pod; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ [62] Pts
Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Drone Controller; Target Lock
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

1 Crisis Battlesuit @ 198 Pts
Team Leader; Crisis Battlesuit; Crisis Battlesuit; Bonding Knife; Gun Drone; Twin Linked Missile Pod; Drone Controller
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ [63] Pts
Gun Drone; Twin Linked Missile Pod; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
1 Crisis Battlesuit @ [62] Pts
Gun Drone; Missile Pod; Drone Controller; Target Lock
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

8 Fire Warrior @ 218 Pts
Add Shas'ui; Pulse Carbine (x8)
1 Devilfish @ [110] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Targeting Array
1 Shas'ui @ [28] Pts
Bonding Knife; Pulse Carbine; EMP Grenade

7 Fire Warrior @ 208 Pts
Add Shas'ui; Pulse Carbine (x7)
1 Devilfish @ [110] Pts
Burst Cannon; Smart Missile System; Disruption Pod; Landing Gear; Targeting Array
1 Shas'ui @ [28] Pts
Bonding Knife; Pulse Carbine; EMP Grenade

1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 295 Pts
Team Leader; Twin linked Railgun; Broadside Battlesuit; Broadside Battlesuit; Smart Missile System; Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Target Lock; Gun Drone; Drone Controller
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ [90] Pts
Twin linked Railgun; Smart Missile System; Gun Drone; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ [100] Pts
Twin linked Railgun; Twin Linked Plasma Rifle; Gun Drone; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 295 Pts
Team Leader; Twin linked Railgun; Broadside Battlesuit; Broadside Battlesuit; Smart Missile System; Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Target Lock; Gun Drone; Drone Controller
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ [90] Pts
Twin linked Railgun; Smart Missile System; Gun Drone; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ [100] Pts
Twin linked Railgun; Twin Linked Plasma Rifle; Gun Drone; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

1 Broadside Battlesuit @ 295 Pts
Team Leader; Twin linked Railgun; Broadside Battlesuit; Broadside Battlesuit; Smart Missile System; Bonding Knife; Hard-wired Target Lock; Gun Drone; Drone Controller
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ [90] Pts
Twin linked Railgun; Smart Missile System; Gun Drone; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
1 Broadside Battlesuit @ [100] Pts
Twin linked Railgun; Twin Linked Plasma Rifle; Gun Drone; Drone Controller
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines
2 Gun Drone @ [20] Pts
Twin Linked Pulse Carbines

Total Roster Cost: 2500

Stelek these lists are awful.
You have way too many points in wargear on all your units across both lists.

Rather than scaling a list you just bulked out wargear which is never a good recommendation.

Warfish in 5th are not what they were in 4th and you have WAY too many points on a non scoring AV 12 transport.

I've won a lot of tournaments with my Tau and have run every unit in the list and play styles from mech to static.

Drop all those Gun Drones in your suit squads.
Complete waste.

Trying to bulk out a squad with a low save low toughness model is only going to make you take more low LD tests which you are going to FAIL because you've provided no LD support, ethereal, aun'va or shadowsun.

Drop SMS from all FISH

Add more units, your model count for 2500 is too feeble.

How is an extra wound in a suit squad a complete waste? For really cheap too.

Are you seriously suggesting the use of the garbage ethereal, aun va or the simply mediocre shadowsun?

Ill let Stelek take it from there these arent my lists...

I like the first one though. I dont like broadsides and I like triples of HHs.

6 extra wounds at T3 SV4+ actually... sitting back at 36" and firing away with 60pts of ablative what? How does that help the Tau win? If they are sitting back at say 40" to jump forward fire then jump back... why do I need 6 ablative wounds? Death Rain sit back at maximum range anyways and those 6 extra shots are only 18". Still think they are worth it in that configuration?

That's 180pts of waste.

totally not worth it with TLOS

I never suggested using those units, they aren't for everyone.

I said that if you were going to make it easier to force you to take LD tests than you should counter that blatant downside.

Though if you've played 5th or know how to use those units you would see that they are NOT garbage. They are best used in Static Tau where you can make your entire 72 Fire warriors Stubborn for 205 pts. Also don't forget with Going to Ground, Aun Va now has a rerollable 3+

Wow what horrible counter arguments you have, paid. You sound like someone who hasn't played 5th edition much with tau. At least not against good lists and good opponents, anyway.

Mech tau:

Devilfish need to survive because Fire Warriors don't. Maybe you haven't noticed this yet, but when you land your Fish of Fury at 6" and jump your Fire Warriors out--yeah, you tickle some marines to death. Then your fish get melta'd or assaulted; and your Fire warriors are too close and get flamed, rapid fired, and assaulted to death.

These configs prevent as much of that as possible, and maximize firepower.

Shoot once with FW, or shoot repeatedly while moving away from CC threats? I'll take the latter, thank you.

Run my devilfish as pillboxes that move 6"? Yes please, I like firing all my shots. I want you to assault me, so I get more free hits on you.

I can sit on my side of the middle and pummel you to death. That 4+ cover save and ability to ignore terrain is the new Tau win. Way to totally not catch that.

Crisis Suits:

Wait, did you just say these units are configured wrong? LOL!!

Every unit is configured with ablative wounds so lascannon fire does not go into the suits.

Deep strikes don't scare them, because you can't just melta them dead.

If you try and kill these suits at long range, you will lose the game. No one is going to beat down these units with long range fire.

4+ cover save? Lots of drones to suck up heavy weapons fire, and close range rapid fire...the suits are different so they can take torrent fire and shrug it off the drones...3 extra ablative wounds there, so each unit has 12 wounds before it's destroyed? Yeah, obviously this config sucks.

Let me guess, for the few hundred points spent on making all 8 suit teams invulnerable to weapons fire, the ability to split fire to finish off weakened units...you'd buy Aun Va so when you take the lascannon and meltadrop fire to the face and fail your 4+ save, you lose suits?

Aun Va:

You go ahead and make your Fire Warriors stubborn with Aun Va. I will fire every single weapon at him until he's dead, then see you run away. One turn, dead. Especially at 2500 points. About as bad a tactic as standing Eldrad out in the open by himself. Sooner or later, the shot will get through. Sooner is more likely at this points level.

We can then play close combat games with your gunline and see just how bad your army is.

I wish you offered good advice somewhere, but you don't.

Here's your prize, mate.

So he rerolls a 3+ and makes crappy troop choices not run if some of them manage to survive being attacked. Sorry, I dont mean to sound coarse I just don't like ethereals with a passion and to some extent fire warriors. To me FWs are there to take objectives and hope to survive. I havent played anything above 2k with them though.

Edit: Okay I don't feel so bad now lol. Stelek youve just been itching to use that havent you?

Stelek wrote:
Mech tau:

Devilfish need to survive because Fire Warriors don't. Maybe you haven't noticed this yet, but when you land your Fish of Fury at 6" and jump your Fire Warriors out--yeah, you tickle some marines to death. Then your fish get melta'd or assaulted; and your Fire warriors are too close and get flamed, rapid fired, and assaulted to death.

These configs prevent as much of that as possible, and maximize firepower.

I agree you want DF to survive as a hard candied shell for your FW.
So how are you planning on using your configurations?
Flying around and leaving your FW embarked the majority of the game?
Deploying and then cruising solo?
Sitting and Pillboxing with the units inside?

From what I see, you either:
Don't need Sensor Spines
Don't need SMS
Don't need Gun Drones in the FW squad
Don't need a Shas'ui & BK

Stelek wrote:
Shoot once with FW, or shoot repeatedly while moving away from CC threats? I'll take the latter, thank you.

Run my devilfish as pillboxes that move 6"? Yes please, I like firing all my shots. I want you to assault me, so I get more free hits on you.

I can sit on my side of the middle and pummel you to death. That 4+ cover save and ability to ignore terrain is the new Tau win. Way to totally not catch that.

Never said anything about the Pulse Carbines on the FW. So...?
Flechette Dischargers are great but your fish are too expensive. If you are going to keep everything embarked at all times sure... but then why bother taking a Ui, BK or the Drones?
That is not conducive with your tactics.

I am aware of how 5th changed "the new Tau win"
I'm saying your lists suck, and are not optimized
When did I say anything that "this is how the Tau win its the same as 4th"?

You have no clue what you are talking about.
Where is the MAXIMIZED firepower you speak of? Where?

1 list
1 HQ
44 Scoring Troop Choices - 44 S5 shots
24 Marker Lights -6 S5 Shots
7 Fish - 49 S5 shots
3 Heads - 18 S5 Shots
3 Railguns

Total models 85

Stelek wrote:

Crisis Suits:
Wait, did you just say these units are configured wrong? LOL!!

The Death Rain, or TLMP Crisis suits (BSF/FL) is great because... do you even know?
Its CHEAP.
They can effectively sit back at 36"+ and fire accurately.
The more points you spend on these units only takes away from this purpose.

Stelek wrote:
Every unit is configured with ablative wounds so lascannon fire does not go into the suits.

Deep strikes don't scare them, because you can't just melta them dead.

If you try and kill these suits at long range, you will lose the game. No one is going to beat down these units with long range fire.

You have 30 S7 shots.
480pts are spent on your "ablative wounds" you don't think that's... excessive? Honestly?!
No markerlights in the list.
No Low AP weaponry except the 9 railguns
2 fragile as hell troop choices for 2500

Stelek wrote:
4+ cover save? Lots of drones to suck up heavy weapons fire, and close range rapid fire...the suits are different so they can take torrent fire and shrug it off the drones...3 extra ablative wounds there, so each unit has 12 wounds before it's destroyed? Yeah, obviously this config sucks.

Let me guess, for the few hundred points spent on making all 8 suit teams invulnerable to weapons fire, the ability to split fire to finish off weakened units...you'd buy Aun Va so when you take the lascannon and meltadrop fire to the face and fail your 4+ save, you lose suits?

But they aren't invulnerable.
Small Arms fire will be making you take a lot LD 8 tests on your 3 Elites choices frequently in games this size. Then they are going to run 3d6... probably off the board, oh but they won't run off the board because you're rolling the dice. I forgot.

Have you considered Hand to Hand? It doesn't seem like it.

Suits aren't bad in Hand to Hand, but fast hard hitting assault armies will put a huge dent in your "invulnerable" units.

Stelek wrote:
Aun Va:

You go ahead and make your Fire Warriors stubborn with Aun Va. I will fire every single weapon at him until he's dead, then see you run away. One turn, dead. Especially at 2500 points. About as bad a tactic as standing Eldrad out in the open by himself. Sooner or later, the shot will get through. Sooner is more likely at this points level.

We can then play close combat games with your gunline and see just how bad your army is.

You have never-ever-even used him have you?
How are you able to form an opinion without ever even using the unit in multiple situations multiple times?
That's like saying Philadelphia Eagles fans are not all fat, honky, morons when you've never been to a game at Veterans Stadium.
Exactly how are you going to fire everything at a single unit turn 1? Evidently in your games the range of your weapons are unlimited.
You sound like the kid in glasses below.
I bet you also have a 95% win percentile.

I'm glad you enjoy using your AARP card on 12 year olds you play at your LGS, but if you are advising these lists to another member then they should know that they are wasting a ton of points.

I find it interesting that your opinion is counter to the majority of users on all of the dedicated Tau forums that are out there and yet you are trying to say "this is the way".
You're entitled to your opinion Stelek, but toughen up. You have an easy time dishing it but evidently you can't take it.

These lists need a lot of work cuz they just suck.

GMMStudios wrote:So he rerolls a 3+ and makes crappy troop choices not run if some of them manage to survive being attacked. Sorry, I dont mean to sound coarse I just don't like ethereals with a passion and to some extent fire warriors. To me FWs are there to take objectives and hope to survive. I havent played anything above 2k with them though.

No worries man, glad to see you are passionate though. :-)
I wasn't suggesting running an ethereal, they definitely are situational, but if you are going to be standing around with a lot of low LD units while making it easier for them to take casualties and take tests... you've got to do something.
Book of St. Lucius... it's the same principle.

I run both Kroot and Fire Warriors normally but have found that 5th the fire warrior has gotten just as important.
It comes down to play style really.

paidinfull wrote:I agree you want DF to survive as a hard candied shell for your FW.
So how are you planning on using your configurations?
Flying around and leaving your FW embarked the majority of the game?
Deploying and then cruising solo?
Sitting and Pillboxing with the units inside?

From what I see, you either:
Don't need Sensor Spines
Don't need SMS
Don't need Gun Drones in the FW squad
Don't need a Shas'ui & BK

In the mech list, the FW get out and hide behind the fish and fire on the move. The fish in front, moving 6".

At 18" that's 11 shots from the FW units and 7 from the fish. Yes please, even with BS3 I'll take it if I can move 6" and fire 18".

SMS instead of gun drones? So I can double my KP's off devilfish, and reduce my firepower from that slot by 2 and reduce my range by 6"? Well, no actually.

Sensor spines are awesome. I don't like having my huge vehicle fleet parked in the open, crowding each other. I much prefer tactics. You know, where I can take my fish wherever I want without risking being immobilized, so I can always just move anywhere and do whatever I need to.

The drones are there so you can dump excessive wounds onto them because they are different. Welcome to 5th edition.

18" is alot safer for Tau, but Tau tend to take casualties easy (that whole T3 thing) and break then run away. Well you see, if I have a BK I'll always be able to rally (and for fragile troops choices, that's a good thing--why is it required for IG to have ID but tau can't have BK? I just don't get it). The bonus is, if I do break and rally, I can move 3" and then fire 18". That means whoever broke me, is probably getting shot. It makes my units endlessly annoying.

In short, DA are good in a Mech Eldar list because they can sit at 18" and fire. Tau aren't as good as they are, but you can still make them good.

paidinfull wrote:Never said anything about the Pulse Carbines on the FW. So...?
Flechette Dischargers are great but your fish are too expensive. If you are going to keep everything embarked at all times sure... but then why bother taking a Ui, BK or the Drones?
That is not conducive with your tactics.

I am aware of how 5th changed "the new Tau win"
I'm saying your lists suck, and are not optimized
When did I say anything that "this is how the Tau win its the same as 4th"?

You have no clue what you are talking about.
Where is the MAXIMIZED firepower you speak of? Where?

1 list
1 HQ
44 Scoring Troop Choices - 44 S5 shots
24 Marker Lights -6 S5 Shots
7 Fish - 49 S5 shots
3 Heads - 18 S5 Shots
3 Railguns

Total models 85

Why would I keep my troops embarked? So I can't use my pulse carbines advantage? lol

The devilfish block midfield off from the enemy, and if anyone wants to assault them to kill them by all means go ahead. It's by no means guaranteed without alot of high str attacks which most people don't have. I will let people pound on my devilfish all day with marines.

24 marker lights? I'm confused. Do you mean gun drones or something?

You seem to be a member of the old tau crowd. That having as many units as possible was the way to win.

It didn't work in 4th, it doesn't work in 5th.

My lists require tactics. Want to know where my firepower is?

In mobility. You do know that being able to fire endlessly is a good thing, right?

That I can tank block and shock rapid fire units outside of 12" of my FW units, and I'll gladly exchange fire with marines. There are more of me, and I hurt more than they do.

paidinfull wrote:The Death Rain, or TLMP Crisis suits (BSF/FL) is great because... do you even know?
Its CHEAP.
They can effectively sit back at 36"+ and fire accurately.
The more points you spend on these units only takes away from this purpose.

Yes, and without vehicles cheap suits are targets. Maybe you noticed there are no hard targets to shoot at from across the board.

But the Tau will be firing everything at you while you pick off drones who have a 4+ cover save.

Good job on figuring out that MP have a 36" + 6" range. How long did that take?

I maxed all the units out. My units will survive.

Without vehicles. They can all stand out in the open and just shoot at you, and all you can do is eat it.

No vehicle army will get across the table against this army.

Close combat armies will not like it one bit, because ALL of those armies are marines who have difficulty getting crosscover saves because there are not 120 of them.

paidinfull wrote:You have 30 S7 shots.
480pts are spent on your "ablative wounds" you don't think that's... excessive? Honestly?!
No markerlights in the list.
No Low AP weaponry except the 9 railguns
2 fragile as hell troop choices for 2500

I spent 480 points to make sure 1500 points doesn't take 6 lascannon shots (1 per team) and run off the board.

Sometimes, you really don't need markerlights.

Hmmm, the two command squads have plasmas and there's a plasma in every broadside unit.

Sure the troops are fragile. The devilfish they are in are very hard to kill at range, and at range is where this army is going to kill you.

Even if the devilfish die, you need to '6' them to remove them, otherwise they are just blocking LOS to your shooting elements and the FW will score the objective.

You don't seem to have a grasp of tactics, but you do know the FW will ALWAYS start in reserve, so odds are one shows up on turn 2 and another on turn 3?

Then the other player can piss and moan trying to get close enough to meltagun them to death, or try to get past the 4+ cover save they possess.

paidinfull wrote:But they aren't invulnerable.
Small Arms fire will be making you take a lot LD 8 tests on your 3 Elites choices frequently in games this size. Then they are going to run 3d6... probably off the board, oh but they won't run off the board because you're rolling the dice. I forgot.

Have you considered Hand to Hand? It doesn't seem like it.

Suits aren't bad in Hand to Hand, but fast hard hitting assault armies will put a huge dent in your "invulnerable" units.

Small arms fire from what? All those drop pod armies? Yes, Devilfish 2x landed will stop most drop pod armies in their tracks, but you know that. Oh wait, it's not on Tau Online's "tacticas" so maybe you don't.

If I am setup on my board edge, rapid firing enemy units will NEVER get to me in numbers I'm afraid of.

Being able to kill every vehicle in a single turn is one reason.

Having to run 2 turns in the face of my firepower is another.

The last reason is I can be stretched the entire length of the board, and still shoot the crap out of you with EVERYTHING.

Of course close combat hurts Tau. Did you read that in the Tau Online "tacticas"? Where WS2, S3, T3, and I2 isn't so hot? Man, that's pure gold!

You have to GET into close combat first. Good luck with that.

paidinfull wrote:You have never-ever-even used him have you?
How are you able to form an opinion without ever even using the unit in multiple situations multiple times?
That's like saying Philadelphia Eagles fans are not all fat, honky, morons when you've never been to a game at Veterans Stadium.
Exactly how are you going to fire everything at a single unit turn 1? Evidently in your games the range of your weapons are unlimited.
You sound like the kid in glasses below.
I bet you also have a 95% win percentile.

I'm glad you enjoy using your AARP card on 12 year olds you play at your LGS, but if you are advising these lists to another member then they should know that they are wasting a ton of points.

I find it interesting that your opinion is counter to the majority of users on all of the dedicated Tau forums that are out there and yet you are trying to say "this is the way".
You're entitled to your opinion Stelek, but toughen up. You have an easy time dishing it but evidently you can't take it.

These lists need a lot of work cuz they just suck.

Actually I playtested both Codices for the Tau, and I told the authors in no unkind words that Aun'Va was a pile of steaming .

He's great, until someone shoots him. Then he dies. How do I shoot Aun'Va?

See, when I play Tau with him on the board...on turn 1, I run my whole army forward. So if I have heavy bolters, autocannons, etc odds are I am now in range.

I'll take your pathetic static firepower for a turn, then get a free fear of the darkness off on your whole army when Aun'Va drops.

I'm a big eagles fan, and I don't really think you should be calling anyone honky. Especially not the blacks, orientals, and latinos that go to the games. By the way, Veterans Stadium is gone. Has been a long time.

That's right, my opinions are counter to the fine fellows at 'Tau online' among others. Great sites for new players, but that's about it. I love seeing their builds at tournaments all across the land. Obvious, easy to beat, no real threat, etc.

If only race specific sites were for players who predominantly place that race

If only I could increase the costs of my units by 33%

If only Veterans Stadium was the real home of the Eagles for 35 yrs

If only you could take Fear of Darkness in every army including Tyranids

If only we could play 2 armies at once against our opponent

If only the Eagles didn't suck

THIS PHRASE DELETED BY THE MOD SQUAD
PAIDINFUL THE USE OF RACIALLY DEROGATORY COMMENTARY WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. FURTHER STATEMENTS WILL RESULT IN A WARNING, THEN FURTHER ACTION IF NEEDED. JFRAZ-MOD

I'm not going to comment on all the side arguements, but I have to agree that these lists seem more filled out than scaled. I see a lot of what I consider "extra" wargear on the vehicles as well. I understand why you took drones, but I don't see them as all that useful since you didn't take max firewarriors. The only way your going to get to place "extra" wounds on them is if all models already have a wound on them. If taking a single wound, sure you can kill off a drone, but had you spent the points on another firewarrior you still loose one guy, so its kind of a wash. Besides you can get the exact same thing by taking pulse carbines on the firewarriors you bought with the points spent on the drones. I'll admit that the drones are marginably better shots, but if you loose your Shas'ui (for any reason) you loose your drones.

I don't see anything in the 2500 pt mech list that is anything more than more of the same at 1750. Its just more devil-fish and more pathfinders.

Scalable to me means getting progressively harder. If at 1750 you can take 20 plague marines then at 2500 you take 60. Or moving from a unit of 6 nob bikers at 1750 to 20 at 2500. Why, because most people don't have the firepower to deal with 20 plaguemarines in the first place and the guns needed to kill them are just not avialable to show up in enough quantities that the extra 800 points provide. Where spending those 800 points on more plaguemarines gives you more scoring units and a just harder list in general.

Each increase is more difficult to deal with. Lets be honest, its just as easy to knock out 22 firewarriors as it is 44 when you consider what else normal just shows up with point increase. Tau aren't like marines or other armies where their big guns can come from multiple force org locations. Hammerheads only come from heavy where Landraiders, battlewagons somehow come from everywhere.

I find the 'extras' make both lists far more difficult to deal with.

You can run more 'stuff' for sure, and how good is that stuff when it's all min'd so you can max? Truth is, it's not very good at all.

==============================
Important bit about wound allocation:
==============================

As far as wound allocation goes, this is why you take the drones (it's just one example but there are many like this):

You save the drones for short range fire, after you've been attritioned down (i.e. lost fire warriors to across the board shots). Let's say you have 6 FW, a leader, and 2 drones left.

You get hit by a rapid firing marine squad. Normally, this means you're probably dead.

They get 2 plasma hits, and 7 bolter hits.

That's 9 hits, you have 7 models but 3 groups.

So you assign:

2 plasma to the drones.
4 bolters to FW.
1 bolter to the leader.

The last 2 bolter shots go to the drones.

The drones die to the plasma hits.
The FW make (or fail) their saves.
The extra 2 bolter shots are discarded and have no effect.

If you did not have the drones; it would be:

2 plasma go into your leader.
7 bolters to FW.

So instead of having 2.5 FW left, you have...0.5 FW left.

Make sense how I've explained it?

==============================

I'm not sure how doubling your vehicles (and what's sitting behind them) when Tau vehicles don't die to ranged fire (except meltaguns) and giving yourself a very mobile move 6" and fire 18" list means you don't scale.

People can fire lascannons at hammerheads all day. Doesn't do a whole hell of a lot. Hammerheads can fire at Land Raiders all day, and those Land Raiders die. Same with the Battlewagons, which don't really even have a chance in hell of killing you but on a 2+ pen they blow up? Come on man, don't be down on Tau.

If anyone brings 8 suit teams to a battle, I don't even want to play! Same with these vehicles. It's damned annoying trying to kill these units while they plink away at you, and with 7 devilfish you are only getting past them with jetbikes, jump packs, and skimmers.

The only unit I'd jump over that mess would be a seer council on jetbikes. Everything else, I wouldn't try it.

Stelek wrote:I find the 'extras' make both lists far more difficult to deal with.

You can run more 'stuff' for sure, and how good is that stuff when it's all min'd so you can max? Truth is, it's not very good at all.

==============================
Important bit about wound allocation:
==============================

As far as wound allocation goes, this is why you take the drones (it's just one example but there are many like this):

You save the drones for short range fire, after you've been attritioned down (i.e. lost fire warriors to across the board shots). Let's say you have 6 FW, a leader, and 2 drones left.

You get hit by a rapid firing marine squad. Normally, this means you're probably dead.

They get 2 plasma hits, and 7 bolter hits.

That's 9 hits, you have 7 models but 3 groups.

So you assign:

2 plasma to the drones.
4 bolters to FW.
1 bolter to the leader.

The last 2 bolter shots go to the drones.

The drones die to the plasma hits.
The FW make (or fail) their saves.
The extra 2 bolter shots are discarded and have no effect.

If you did not have the drones; it would be:

2 plasma go into your leader.
7 bolters to FW.

So instead of having 2.5 FW left, you have...0.5 FW left.

Make sense how I've explained it?

==============================

I'm not sure how doubling your vehicles (and what's sitting behind them) when Tau vehicles don't die to ranged fire (except meltaguns) and giving yourself a very mobile move 6" and fire 18" list means you don't scale.

People can fire lascannons at hammerheads all day. Doesn't do a whole hell of a lot. Hammerheads can fire at Land Raiders all day, and those Land Raiders die. Same with the Battlewagons, which don't really even have a chance in hell of killing you but on a 2+ pen they blow up? Come on man, don't be down on Tau.

If anyone brings 8 suit teams to a battle, I don't even want to play! Same with these vehicles. It's damned annoying trying to kill these units while they plink away at you, and with 7 devilfish you are only getting past them with jetbikes, jump packs, and skimmers.

The only unit I'd jump over that mess would be a seer council on jetbikes. Everything else, I wouldn't try it.

Like I said, I get the drone thing, but you do the same thing giving two guys pulse carbines instead of pulse rifles and you don't worry about auto loosing two more guys if the drone controller bites it early for some odd reason.

As for the tanks more is always better, but D-fish are just too expensive to spam for what you get (tactics aside). 7 S5 AP5 shots is not that great for 120+ points when other armies can get more/better shots for the same price. I can see taking a few more, but not that many. Personally, I'd drop pathfinders and attached fish to get a large pirahna squadron. Thats a headache in a bottle that just keeps coming and can assist your lonely three hammerheads with tankbusting if you give them fusion. Thats scalability. Taking normally two and suddenly showing up with 5. Thats 375 or more points and just 2 KP. You generate a vehicle unit that cannot be ignored and needs to be wiped out before it will stop contesting.

Everyone in that army has pulse carbines. So I can't really do that.

Devilfish are expensive. So are Wave Serpents.

Having 7 of them is a strength all it's own.

They are the new holofalcons of 5th edition.

Piranhas are liabilities at this points level, because they will get shot down immediately (open topped, squadron rules; good night).

That's why I didn't include them. I own 5 of them, and I love them to death--but only in smaller games. Large games with 8-12 las/auto cannons on the table? No thanks.

Devilfish in this config totally stop assault armies cold. You should give it a try, at least.

I'm not the be-all or end-all of anything 40k, but...I fear this army more than 95% of the armies out there.

Can't kill most of it without meltaguns. What if I don't have alot of meltaguns? Oh boy...

CLEAR! its ok, I'm a doctor. I'm professionally trained in resuscitating threads.

Stelek, what's your take on carbines vs. rifles? I assume you chose the carbines for their extra 6" range. do you find this makes up for the halved firepower? I can't say I've tested the carbines enough, but I've been fairly comfortable with the relatively short range of the rifles rapid firing from behind their fish.

Also, I can't quite wrap my head around Sensor Spines. The times I find myself trying to put a tank into difficult terrain is usually rather rare, particularly because it's only if you land in or leave difficult, but several other Tau players I've talked to swear by them now.

P.S. flechettes+disruption pods=stupid survivability, even for a 110+ point transport. can't knock them out without serious ranged guns, and your PK nob is the only one who's left standing when your 30 boy mob charges the devilfish. Then he wiffs all his to hits on 6s. You're pay out the nose for your mobility, but at least now it's hardy mobility.

I like both.

Carbines for being able to move and fire.

Pulse rifles I like for the long range shots.

I don't use FW to kill enemy infantry units, they aren't my cup of tea for that. Great for annoying people and picking off single wounds off already damaged units.

I run one devilfish in my 1750 list. It usually sits in the back, doing nothing. Then if need be, and usually it need be...

I move it forward 12", pivot, dump the FW out 2", and run them at an objective. Being able to ignore terrain for ALL of that movement makes them great last turn objective grabbers. 15-20" of move? Yes please!

I generally don't bother with flechettes on anything but my Hammerheads, they make Ork lootas cry at my cheese.

Basic troop transports that are AV12 are very nice. I would only put them in a large force like this one though, there are lots of ways to negate mass devilfish...so better to have other elements of your army doing the damage while the devilfish take it.

@Stelek

I see that you like to attach gundrones to suit units (both here and on your blog report). Do you ever find yourself getting screwed in suit units by the majority toughness rule? Does it ever come up?

Just curious

Rmeju

Take your first list and attempt to beat this list.

2 tyrants with twin dev toxin sacs and sences with 2 guard ea.

2 dakkafex's with 2 twin linked devs and sences

2 sniper/gun fexs with vennom cannon barbed strangler + 1 wound

2 units of 9 warriors with deathspitters talons carapace and toxin sacs

120 spinegaunts

2 units of 8 stealers scuttlers and feeder tendrils

=2506 drop some random thing to get it good as far as points go.

so many S6 shots/templates so many multi wound creatures and so many models to shove down your throat care to explain how you would beat it.

This seems like a curious list. I suppose it would make sense in some ways, but most of it just seems uneccessary, unless you were the one who built the map your playing on, or you otherwise are expecting that the terrain and layout will be exact to your needs.

Mech Tau List:

Commander: Nothing much to say. Understandable that he's cheap because he's not mechanized. I don't get the target lock though. You know what a target lock does right? It doesn't allow you to split your own fire, just fire with your squads. A target lock won't let you fire one weapon at one target and one weapon at another target. All it does is allow you to fire BOTH your weapons at a target other then the rest of your squad. The vehicle Target Lock and battlesuit Target Lock are not the same thing.

Fireteams: Okay, so it's a warfish, carrying carbine warriors? The warfish has an odd, and rather expensive gear layout. With 5ths new rules, I can understand the Sensor Spines, but not the Desruption pod -and- spines -and- flechettes. What is this fish made for? Close-combat, or far combat? If you're close enough to use the flechettes then the disruption pod has no use. It's generally not always very effective to try and make a warfish that's supposed to be good at long range and close range, it's so expensive and most of the wargear doesn't work together like that. Worse still, since you've given it the SMS and flechettes, I'm assuming you plan to be firing all 7 shots at close range? It would be a big mistake, you can't move 12" and fire anymore. Tau don't have defencive weapons except markerlights now, so that SMS and the Burst cannon are both Primary weapons, so you can only fire one while moving fast. So if you're not moving fast, and you're within range to use flechettes, you're now defenceless, people only need a 4+ to hit you in combat, and you have no coversave since you're not moving fast enough... but then if you are moving fast enough, one of those weapons are useless, and so are the flechettes.

What exactly are you trying to achieve with these warfishes? Their gear layout looks like a mess. I'm hoping you must have something wildly specific in mind for how they are going to be used. It's not just the fact that they're overpriced, its that a lot of the gear actually conflicts with itself.

And the firewarriors themselves? If you have them carrying carbines then they are obviously not being fielded for their damage potential. Guarding the warfish then? why not take min-size squad and put the points to use elsewhere?

And why add gundrones instead of firewarriors? It's not like they have better odds of hitting, and are otherwise the same. I can understand it on the Pathfinders because their squads are smaller and it adds more to their size, but why not juse use firewarriors in the firewarrior squad?

The hammerheads, same thing. Not sure why you'd have disruption and flechettes together.


Battlesuit list:

I suppose my problem with this list is the gundrones. I guess you either don't mind having an army of 4+ saves, or you expect to somehow always be taking fire from antimeq weapons and using cover to save you. In which case I'm not sure what kind of tau you play, since I find I'm usually taking armor saves against hits on my crisis suits and would rather not be throwing away my 3+ save.

The deathrains are an odd bunch. Carbines with missile pods? Again, is this supposed to be for long range or short range? I certinly hope this isn't meant for short range, because there are plenty of better options a crisis team can have. for 2 points more you could have the burst cannon and missile pod, using the burst cannons at close range and the missiles at long range.

Unless you brought the drones for the extra wounds... Which doesn't strike me as the best choice, since you could take 4 shield drones instead of 6 gundrones, and get the actual invunerable save, and keep your majority 3+ save. Having an all 4+ save, you'll lose more from the gundrones then you would with the 3+ save shield drones. If you're hoping to use the carbines as an effective weapon for keeping the suits alive, then, again, it would make more sense to take a burst cannon and missile pod. You can't split all your fire since you only have one target lock, and against any vehicle that can be potentially droped with missile pods, you probably won't need twin-linking with all four shots anyways.

So uh... what do you do when you're fighting marines? Or necrons? Or... uh... basically -any- army with a strong base in mech troops. You aren't expecting the HQs and the broadsides alone are going to take on 2500 points of necrons, marines, or(if you're really unlucky) battlesisters,are you? You'll clean house if you're using a list like this against that mech list you just put above it, or an equal light-armor mech list of another army. But that's just about it. You don't have enough light killing power, and you don't have any endurance.

For both of these armies, you could make a lot of improvements. For the mech in particular you could shave off a lot of points spent on gear that won't help you most of the time, and probably take more actual units. From how it sounds like you'll use the mech list, you're going to lose a -lot- of devilfishes really fast.

I'm starting to get the impression that you must play some very measurable games, either always against the same armies, or always on the same kinds of maps, since this list looks like it's relying on factors that aren't always going to be there.

If these were 2,000pt lists, It'd make a lot more sense.

Stelek wrote:Just a pair of example lists for Jayden, showing how tau scale. I don't remember how many tau models you actually have, so not sure what you can or cannot build.

Somehow that was missed. This was an exercise, pure theory.

Anyway...I'll answer as best I can.

rmeju wrote:@Stelek

I see that you like to attach gundrones to suit units (both here and on your blog report). Do you ever find yourself getting screwed in suit units by the majority toughness rule? Does it ever come up?

Just curious

Rmeju

Usually it doesn't, but honestly, what people should be firing at your suits (instant death weapons) wound on a 2+ any way you slice it.

Firing heavy bolters? Don't care, those guns will be out of range and/or silenced quickly.

Everything above that (S6 and S7) wounds on a 2+ and doesn't kill me.

That answer the question?

yermom wrote:Take your first list and attempt to beat this list.

2 tyrants with twin dev toxin sacs and sences with 2 guard ea.

2 dakkafex's with 2 twin linked devs and sences

2 sniper/gun fexs with vennom cannon barbed strangler + 1 wound

2 units of 9 warriors with deathspitters talons carapace and toxin sacs

120 spinegaunts

2 units of 8 stealers scuttlers and feeder tendrils

=2506 drop some random thing to get it good as far as points go.

so many S6 shots/templates so many multi wound creatures and so many models to shove down your throat care to explain how you would beat it.

Well, in a all-mech force like that I probably should have Decoy Launchers but meh.

If I did, that'd probably cripple this army.

Since I don't...

Twin-linked devourers on Tyrants, so they are always glancing me?

Same with the warriors. Scary and damaging, yes.

Game-winning against a mech force? Possibly.

The sniper fexes are the best bet at killing the mech forces, but there are only 2.

So, I'd probably gun those down and then start chipping away at the Warriors.

The gaunts would kill pretty much anything that got out to play, but they'd be dead last on the to-kill list.

Just wondering why this army is configured this way. Do you really need Dakka fexes when devourer warriors do the trick just as well?

Why aren't there VC on those Tyrants? At 2500 points, without them...you lack serious anti-tank vs AV11 through AV13.

2 sniper fexes? Not 3? At 2500? Really?

I'd see this army being scary to some, but it can be taken apart since it's so focused on S6 when it doesn't need to be.

If you lose your MC, how are you killing enemy vehicles? The spinegaunts can't, right? So the stealers in assault? Anything mobile will hurt bad.

With 3 railheads dropping pie plates and burst cannons on you, plus the ability to markerlight into you and unload death at you...it's a fight, but I'll take Tau mobility over Tyranid mobility.

Toss in disruption pods and the ability to fire at full effect at 18" with everything and anything...it won't be pretty for either side really.

Slight edge to the Tau, I think those 9 strong warriors are going to be huge points sinks against disruption pod tau. Scattering 2/3 so you'll likely end up with 4-5 hits with each squad doesn't even get the odds up for a glance, and then there's the disruption pod. If there were decoy launchers, you get to stun stuff...what little you get through before you go poof.

Markerlights I think on the back edge and chew everything that comes into midfield is key.

Probably can just kill-as-they-come and still manage things just fine.

Sniperfexes are the only huge threat in this army against a Tau mech force, in my honest opinion.

Hope that answers that question.

Lanz wrote:This seems like a curious list. I suppose it would make sense in some ways, but most of it just seems uneccessary, unless you were the one who built the map your playing on, or you otherwise are expecting that the terrain and layout will be exact to your needs.

I play on whatever terrain comes my way.

It's never a concern really what the board is.

You deal, and accept.

Lanz wrote:Mech Tau List:

Commander: Nothing much to say. Understandable that he's cheap because he's not mechanized. I don't get the target lock though. You know what a target lock does right? It doesn't allow you to split your own fire, just fire with your squads. A target lock won't let you fire one weapon at one target and one weapon at another target. All it does is allow you to fire BOTH your weapons at a target other then the rest of your squad. The vehicle Target Lock and battlesuit Target Lock are not the same thing.

Why, yes, I do know.

See, he can join a foot squad and shoot something else.

Sometimes, it helps when that Chaplain has 1 wound left and you don't want to burn all your clear shots on another squad...so you get your commander into position and he does the job.

Lanz wrote:Fireteams: Okay, so it's a warfish, carrying carbine warriors? The warfish has an odd, and rather expensive gear layout. With 5ths new rules, I can understand the Sensor Spines, but not the Desruption pod -and- spines -and- flechettes. What is this fish made for? Close-combat, or far combat? If you're close enough to use the flechettes then the disruption pod has no use. It's generally not always very effective to try and make a warfish that's supposed to be good at long range and close range, it's so expensive and most of the wargear doesn't work together like that. Worse still, since you've given it the SMS and flechettes, I'm assuming you plan to be firing all 7 shots at close range? It would be a big mistake, you can't move 12" and fire anymore. Tau don't have defencive weapons except markerlights now, so that SMS and the Burst cannon are both Primary weapons, so you can only fire one while moving fast. So if you're not moving fast, and you're within range to use flechettes, you're now defenceless, people only need a 4+ to hit you in combat, and you have no coversave since you're not moving fast enough... but then if you are moving fast enough, one of those weapons are useless, and so are the flechettes.

The devilfish are built to handle everything.

See, in tournament settings, sometimes you face both assault and shooty armies.

This version deals with both.

Being able to move 6" and fire everything does result in being hit on a 4+. That's what the flechettes are for, if needed.

Tau can never, ever, EVER, get cover saves from going fast except on Piranhas. Read those rules again.

Lanz wrote:What exactly are you trying to achieve with these warfishes? Their gear layout looks like a mess. I'm hoping you must have something wildly specific in mind for how they are going to be used. It's not just the fact that they're overpriced, its that a lot of the gear actually conflicts with itself.

The gear is designed to allow you to deal with 30 heavy weapons from a IG army, 100 jump pack marines in a BA army, and everything in between.

That's how tournament lists succeed.

Lanz wrote:And the firewarriors themselves? If you have them carrying carbines then they are obviously not being fielded for their damage potential. Guarding the warfish then? why not take min-size squad and put the points to use elsewhere?

They are being fielded as a moving gunline that you can't get to without getting past the devilfish.

Lanz wrote:And why add gundrones instead of firewarriors? It's not like they have better odds of hitting, and are otherwise the same. I can understand it on the Pathfinders because their squads are smaller and it adds more to their size, but why not juse use firewarriors in the firewarrior squad?

So when I get hit with 15 hits on a 10 man squad, I can dump extra wounds into the gun drones instead of losing FW.

6 hits = 3 dead either way, but when you take 14 hits and put them into 8 FW that's 7 dead FW and your sarge is 50/50 anyway.

Instead you assign 4 hits to the drones, 2 to the sarge, and only 8 to the FW.

That gives you 4 living FW so you still have a unit left instead of being gunned down.

Then you embark and stay on until shot out.

Lanz wrote:The hammerheads, same thing. Not sure why you'd have disruption and flechettes together.

For outflankers, and anyone with beasts who can get to me quickly. Storm Boyz qualify.

So do drop pod marines, who can stun you and then charge you next turn. At least with flechettes, you can hurt them.

Lanz wrote:Battlesuit list:

I suppose my problem with this list is the gundrones. I guess you either don't mind having an army of 4+ saves, or you expect to somehow always be taking fire from antimeq weapons and using cover to save you. In which case I'm not sure what kind of tau you play, since I find I'm usually taking armor saves against hits on my crisis suits and would rather not be throwing away my 3+ save.

Not sure if you are playing 4th or 5th edition.

Why would I take 4+ saves on my crisis suits?

I assign the hits, everyone takes whatever save they happen to have.

Done.

Lanz wrote:The deathrains are an odd bunch. Carbines with missile pods? Again, is this supposed to be for long range or short range? I certinly hope this isn't meant for short range, because there are plenty of better options a crisis team can have. for 2 points more you could have the burst cannon and missile pod, using the burst cannons at close range and the missiles at long range.

The gun drones are there to soak up casualties, no more no less.

Plasma is an absolute must, you cannot kill MC with burst cannons.

Lanz wrote:Unless you brought the drones for the extra wounds... Which doesn't strike me as the best choice, since you could take 4 shield drones instead of 6 gundrones, and get the actual invunerable save, and keep your majority 3+ save. Having an all 4+ save, you'll lose more from the gundrones then you would with the 3+ save shield drones. If you're hoping to use the carbines as an effective weapon for keeping the suits alive, then, again, it would make more sense to take a burst cannon and missile pod. You can't split all your fire since you only have one target lock, and against any vehicle that can be potentially droped with missile pods, you probably won't need twin-linking with all four shots anyways.

I could take them, but that reduces my morale check point and rally point, so I'd rather not.

Not sure what this all 4+ save stuff is coming from. Have you played 5th edition? There is no majority armor saves crap anymore, thanks.

The TL Missile Pods are precisely so you can menace light armor hordes.

Since you obviously didn't read the whole thread, the reason they have different wargear is so you can take your 3+ saves on say heavy bolter through autocannon wounds...and fail 3, and not lose anyone.

Lanz wrote:So uh... what do you do when you're fighting marines? Or necrons? Or... uh... basically -any- army with a strong base in mech troops. You aren't expecting the HQs and the broadsides alone are going to take on 2500 points of necrons, marines, or(if you're really unlucky) battlesisters,are you? You'll clean house if you're using a list like this against that mech list you just put above it, or an equal light-armor mech list of another army. But that's just about it. You don't have enough light killing power, and you don't have any endurance.

You shoot the crap out of any such army. It's an interesting viewpoint, saying that many autocannons and railguns is not enough killing power. It's not like there's any other army that can muster this kind of firepower, so...

So to answer your question, of course I am. Put their mobility down, and watch them get pissed off as they get shot to pieces while they walk.

Lanz wrote:For both of these armies, you could make a lot of improvements. For the mech in particular you could shave off a lot of points spent on gear that won't help you most of the time, and probably take more actual units. From how it sounds like you'll use the mech list, you're going to lose a -lot- of devilfishes really fast.

Then one actually plays Tau, and realizes how hardy Devilfish that fear nothing actually are.

Not terrain, not close combat, not shooting.

Everyone should be so lucky as you, able to drop devilfishes at 18" without any problems.

Lanz wrote:I'm starting to get the impression that you must play some very measurable games, either always against the same armies, or always on the same kinds of maps, since this list looks like it's relying on factors that aren't always going to be there.

If these were 2,000pt lists, It'd make a lot more sense.

Yep. I play against pretty good players locally, on really good terrain.

Nationally and internationally, I think everyone I've ever played is a scrub and the terrain is usually ass.

The factor my lists rely on is me.

At 2000 points, you cannot run these lists...and nor would I.

Back to the whole running a theory on how Tau can scale for someone I know locally who doesn't think much of Tau past a certain points level.

Unlike Dark Eldar and Tyranids, who don't scale well to 2500, for example.

Stelek wrote:Usually it doesn't, but honestly, what people should be firing at your suits (instant death weapons) wound on a 2+ any way you slice it.

Firing heavy bolters? Don't care, those guns will be out of range and/or silenced quickly.

Everything above that (S6 and S7) wounds on a 2+ and doesn't kill me.

That answer the question?

It does. In 5th I'm experimenting with drones because I think they'll help, but I've started with shield drones because, well, that's what they're theoretically for. If you're finding that gun drones are just as good, then that's great because they're 1/3 cheaper, and have some offense to boot.

I guess my real question is: Do you ever use or see any use in shield drones? Or gun drones ftw?

Rmeju

One bit I noticed, and that seems obvious, except perhaps in terms of points: The Shas'El commander in the first list should take only a single burst cannon, and then a targeting array, as it increases BS for both weapons. It'd be 6 points to find somewhere in the army, easily doable.
Also not sure which squad he's joining for survivability, maybe a pathfinder squad?

Lastly, do you plan on keeping those pathfinders mounted? Typically what I've been noticing players doing is taking the pathfinder's transport and giving it to the fire warriors, saving the points. As is, you end up with spare Devilfish flying around, which admittedly I can see use in but seems like perhaps a waste. True, in DoW missions the pathfinders can't exactly take up key positions immediately, but with TLOS they should be alright I'd think.

Edit: Wouldn't it be better to give the team leader in the Broadsides the TL-plasma? It seems he could use them in combo with his HW Target Lock better than that regular suit. It seemed to me that ASS was a better upgrade for the Broadsides - you can still get two drones from the TL, and this lets them fire when they walk on the board or if they're falling back, plus you get some (limited) mobility.

Interesting. Well, you certinly don't seem dellusional. I'd forgotten about the idea of joining the commander into a fireteam. I guess the new rules favor it now too, since even if the only model you see is the crisis suit, you can still take the wounds on the firewarriors. Hmm... clever... I might try that out, give a throwaway commander some moving cover for a bit before he breaks off to do some shenannigans.

I understand your points about the devilfish(My mistake on the moving fast bit, I'm still getting used to the vehicle speed terminology, I'd mixed up the 6-12" and the 12-18" terms.). It still seems steep, however. At close range, you'll get 10 17 str 5 shots, but the enemy can start melta-gunning you. I suppose it's subjective to how closely deployed they are, and how much fire support they can lend one-another, but with such specific formations, you can't really turn around much and keep the firewarriors behind the fish. At a mere 17 shots, unless your pathfinders are stationary, and throwing down massive markerlight support against pinning checks, what would you do to approch a situation where you're being met unit-for-unit, with your elites and HQs tied up by enemy elites, or assault teams? If something is tieing up the crisis suits, then you get rushed by a wave of meq troops, you're a touch under-gunned.

What if a leman russ rams your devilfish line? High enough armor to make a big dent, cheap enough to risk throwing away to break up a pair of fishes and scatter the formation. I know you can just dodge around it, but then the firewarriors are exposed and the formation is left open.

And what about other high-mobility armies with skimmers. Eldar bike army for example, who can jump over the fishes then move straight into combat with the firewarriors where they won't take the hits back?

Lanz wrote:What if a leman russ rams your devilfish line? High enough armor to make a big dent, cheap enough to risk throwing away to break up a pair of fishes and scatter the formation. I know you can just dodge around it, but then the firewarriors are exposed and the formation is left open.

Actually, the rules for skimmers dodging ramming attacks is that, if the dodge is successful, the dodging skimmer stays put, and the ramming tank stops just before it's intended target. S9 would be ugly, if you didn't dodge, but not the end of the world or impossible to survive.

Lanz wrote:And what about other high-mobility armies with skimmers. Eldar bike army for example, who can jump over the fishes then move straight into combat with the firewarriors where they won't take the hits back?

unless you're not paying attention, the jetbikes/assault marines can never directly assault the fire warriors. Your fish will be stopped, bare minimum, 6" away from the bikes. Since the fish+fire warriors formation is easily 7 or 8" deep, a single bike couldn't hop over them, let alone find room for 5+ jetbikes. The best they can do is land within 1" of the front of the fish, and try to jump next turn. you'll just back up the whole procession 6" and fire again next turn, so they'll ostensibly never make it. The problem is when the seer council stabs your devilfish to hell with Singing Spears. Leaves them bunched up for tasty templates though. That's the kind of army you have to mow down with firepower, no matter what your army build is

rmeju wrote: In 5th I'm experimenting with drones because I think they'll help, but I've started with shield drones because, well, that's what they're theoretically for. If you're finding that gun drones are just as good, then that's great because they're 1/3 cheaper, and have some offense to boot.

As Stelek said, the primary purpose of the gundrones is to soak those Instant Death wounds. Now yes, Gun Drones are in fact 1/3 cheaper, but I can't think of a single attack that is over S8, but not AP4 or better (correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore, Shield Drones are 33% more expensive, but also twice as effective at this wound-soaking job (since they will save every other wound with their 4+ invuln). Obviously this isn't the case when you bomb those saves, but you can't plan for poor rolling. Unless I'm already using the crisis suits as anti-infantry, and they'll regularly operate in the 18" range, I'd take shield drones. The fact that they come with 3+ armour saves and keep your toughness at 4 is just a freebie if shots under S6 come your way. Besides, I love watching people throw anti-tank rounds at my invuln save drones when they should be using them on my transports and railguns.