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In Codex: Orks the Waaagh! rule mentions that a Waaagh! can be declared on any turn but the first turn. If a Waaagh! is declared in the Shooting phase, then all Ork units (excepting Grots) gain the Fleet rule, allowing them to charge after running. This benefit comes at a cost: if a 1 is rolled when engaging in this "Waaagh! movement" then the Ork unit suffers a wound.

Some people have decided that Orks need not necessarily suffer this wound, arguing that if the Ork player has all his units run and then declares a Waaagh!, the running won't count as Waaagh! movement but will not prevent the Ork units from charging in the Assault Phase. After all, there's no mention of when in the Shooting phase that the Waaagh! is declared, and the rule declares that all Ork units are affected, and not simply the units that attempt to run after the Waaagh! is declared. So apparently there is such a thing as a free lunch...

I'd like to read people's reasons for holding or rejecting this position, and criticisms of those arguments.

My own reason for rejecting this position is as follows:

If the Waaagh! confers the benefit of Fleet to all Ork units regardless of when in the Shooting phase it is declared, then it likewise confers the cost of a wound to any , since all running movement in that phase has been converted to Waaagh! movement. Just as the benefit is retroactively applied to all units that ran, so is the cost. Call this an application of the principle of symmetry.

Conversely if the Waaagh! does not confer the benefit of Fleet to all Ork units regardless of when in the Shooting phase it is declared, then only units running after the Waaagh! is declared gain the benefit of Fleet at the risk of losing a wound. But the Waaagh! rule does not fix any such temporal conditions on which units are affected by the rule, so any unit to gain the benefit gains it at the cost specified.

Discuss.

Some people have decided that Orks need not necessarily suffer this wound, arguing that if the Ork player has all his units run and then declares a Waaagh!, the running won't count as Waaagh! movement but will not prevent the Ork units from charging in the Assault Phase. After all, there's no mention of when in the Shooting phase that the Waaagh! is declared, and the rule declares that all Ork units are affected, and not simply the units that attempt to run after the Waaagh! is declared. So apparently there is such a thing as a free lunch...

This is how the rule actually works now. This is clear as clear things that are clear.

Sadly, people cry and whine about it. -shrug-

As for "my reasons", well, it's simple. It's what the rule does. Asking for the rule to work differently is as unfair as me asking for my Bolters to be AP1 or for my Venerable Dreadnoughts to have more attacks again.

I will disagree, because in the ork codex it says that once the waagh is called THEN they gain fleet. IMO you need to declare the waagh first.

rednekgunner:

Care to elaborate? What precisely are you disagreeing with?

If we go with your more restrictive interpretation then Ork players cannot actually WAAAAUGH! at all as there is no movement associated with Fleet [of Foot].

Yeah, they got a free lunch. It fails to compensate for auto-losing to Land Raiders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rednekgunner wrote:I will disagree, because in the ork codex it says that once the waagh is called THEN they gain fleet. IMO you need to declare the waagh first.

I understand what you're saying, but you have to remember that units could not run in 4th edition if they didn't have Fleet. You had to call the WAUGH because otherwise your movement was finished when the movement phase ended.

In 4th, all Fleet does is allow you to assault after running. Whereas Waaaugh! used to be the special rule that let you run, now it's a special rule that lets you assault after running, and one due to poor wording and edition changes that can be declared at any time in the Shooting Phase.

Nurglitch wrote:rednekgunner:

Care to elaborate? What precisely are you disagreeing with?

I was disagreeing with Gwar's interpretation.

sourclams:

That is false: Fleet allows a unit to charge in the Assault phase after running in the Shooting phase. Therefore any running during a Shooting phase in which the Waaagh! rule is invoked is by definition Waaagh! movement.

Also, it might be something to point out that the only Ork players that 'auto-lose' to Land Raiders are those who don't take Tankbustas. But that's off-topic. If you want to start a thread in Tactics, please do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
rednekgunner:

Okay, could you explain how you were disagreeing with Gwar's interpretation?

sourclams wrote:If we go with your more restrictive interpretation then Ork players cannot actually WAAAAUGH! at all as there is no movement associated with Fleet [of Foot].

Yeah, they got a free lunch. It fails to compensate for auto-losing to Land Raiders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rednekgunner wrote:I will disagree, because in the ork codex it says that once the waagh is called THEN they gain fleet. IMO you need to declare the waagh first.

I understand what you're saying, but you have to remember that units could not run in 4th edition if they didn't have Fleet. You had to call the WAUGH because otherwise your movement was finished when the movement phase ended.

In 4th, all Fleet does is allow you to assault after running. Whereas Waaaugh! used to be the special rule that let you run, now it's a special rule that lets you assault after running, and one due to poor wording and edition changes that can be declared at any time in the Shooting Phase.

While I do agree with being able to call it anytime during the shooting phase, but you can't run then decide to fleet. If unit a was to run, and then you call waaagh unit a wold not benefit from the waaagh, but units b & c would because they did not run. It would be like failing an armor save and saying I get to roll my invuln now.

Yes, please explain why you disagree with how the rules actually work?

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

That is false: Fleet allows a unit to charge in the Assault phase after running in the Shooting phase. Therefore any running during a Shooting phase in which the Waaagh! rule is invoked is by definition Waaagh! movement.

Also, it might be something to point out that the only Ork players that 'auto-lose' to Land Raiders are those who don't take Tankbustas. But that's off-topic. If you want to start a thread in Tactics, please do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
rednekgunner:

Okay, could you explain how you were disagreeing with Gwar's interpretation?

I was disagreeing with the fact that they get to run, and if it is good enough, call a waaagh & assault. The idea behind a waaagh is to let the ork player take a gamble, and hope they can get into assault. The only way you can call a waaagh anytime is Ghazghkull.

rednekgunner wrote:
I was disagreeing with the fact that they get to run, and if it is good enough, call a waaagh & assault. The idea behind a waaagh is to let the ork player take a gamble, and hope they can get into assault. The only way you can call a waaagh anytime is Ghazghkull.

What? You do Know the rules for how Running and Fleet work in 5th edition yes? Running takes Place in the Shooting Phase. The Waaagh can be declared at any point in the Shooting Phase. Once you have run, you can call the waaagh. This gives them fleet, which allows them to assault even if they have run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and how exactly do you know the "idea" behind the Waaagh! Rule? Did you write the codex?

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

That is false: Fleet allows a unit to charge in the Assault phase after running in the Shooting phase. Therefore any running during a Shooting phase in which the Waaagh! rule is invoked is by definition Waaagh! movement.

Yeah except that's really not what the rules say. Running is running. Waaaugh is the Fleet USR, which no longer has any movement component, at all. Waaugh! literally refers to movement that no longer exists.

Whatever, I thought this was called you make the call, not bash anyone who has a different opinion, but ok. I will bow out and let y'all figure this out on your own.
Peace

rednekgunner wrote:Whatever, I thought this was called you make the call, not bash anyone who has a different opinion, but ok. I will bow out and let y'all figure this out on your own.
Peace

Good lord. YMTC does not litteraly mean "You say whatever you want".

It's a forum for debate and discussion of rules issues. I pointed out that your reasoning is flawed and incorrect. Either back up your argument or admit you were mistaken. Don't go crying like a child!

Obvious RAI compromise based on 5e intricacies:

All the Ork squads Run. Ork player declares Waaaugh!. Only Ork squads that want to assault and rolled a '1' for movement in the Shooting Phase suffer the WAAAUGH! wound.

sourclams:

Yes, that's what the rules say. The rules say that there's Waaagh! movement during the Shooting phase and running is the only movement during the Shooting phase. Therefore running is Waaagh! movement.

The rules make this inference just as they make the inference that Ork Boyz move 6" in the Movement phase, despite the fact that no such distance is stated explicitly in the rules: but they do state that they are Infantry and they do state that Infantry move 6", leaving players to complete the syllogism.

rednekgunner:

I think Gwar, in his own way, is requesting that you explain why we should share your opinion. After all, we already have our own opinions and agree to disagree simply by holding them. In YMDC, at least as far as I'm concerned, we meet to compare our opinions to have them checked for congruence with the facts of the matter, so we can be assured that we hold good opinions, divulge ourself of bad opinions, and generally understand how the game works for everyone rather than just whichever two people happen to be playing at any given moment.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:
rednekgunner:

I think Gwar, in his own way, is requesting that you explain why we should share your opinion. After all, we already have our own opinions and agree to disagree simply by holding them. In YMDC, at least as far as I'm concerned, we meet to compare our opinions to have them checked for congruence with the facts of the matter, so we can be assured that we hold good opinions, divulge ourself of bad opinions, and generally understand how the game works for everyone rather than just whichever two people happen to be playing at any given moment.

Well if that is what he is trying to say, then he needs to say it and leave the one liners out of his responses. I am not above being wrong, but I also don't enjoy people insulting others.

Now Gwar, how about next time asking something like, "Where did you come up with that conclusion?", or other similar responses you might get better reactions.

rednekgunner:

So where did you come up with that conclusion?

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

Yes, that's what the rules say. The rules say that there's Waaagh! movement during the Shooting phase and running is the only movement during the Shooting phase. Therefore running is Waaagh! movement.

No, it's not what the rules say.

WAAAUGH! = Fleet of Foot

Then the rules cite WAAAAUGH! movement. Turning to the Fleet USR, there's no movement component. WAAAUGH! references movement that no longer exists. Just like wargear that affects target priority tests, the relevant rule has disappeared.

The rules say that there's Waaagh! movement during the Shooting phase and running is the only movement during the Shooting phase.

Then clearly by your own argument, WAAAAUGH! no longer exists. As you say, running is the only movement during the Shooting phase and nothing in the WAAAAUGH! rule allows you to make any sort of special movement, all it does is grant you access to the Fleet of Foot special rule, which also no longer exists.

You're trying to make backward-compatible both the most permissive rules interpretation (that WAAAUGH! still exists even though the rules are now gone) and the most restrictive.

RAW: Waaaaugh! doesn't exist.

RAW: Waaaugh! has no movement component and an intelligent Ork player can use an order of operations loophole to ignore the only drawback.

RAI is all that you've got for the foundation of your argument.

Why thank you for asking. At the shop I play at we have adopted the INAT FAQ, because GW has all but endorsed it, and in it it says, "ORK.31A.01 – Q: Can a player wait until the end of the shooting phase to call the Waaagh?
A: Yes, but any units that make a „run‟ move before the Waaagh! is called do not gain the fleet ability in the subsequent Assault phase [clarification]. Also, it was written by many people who are considered to be experts in the field of 40k.

Nurglitch with all due respects the Waaagh! movement would now be in the assault phase as that is where fleet now works.

(@rednekgunner)
Its like the reinforced ram. In 4th you could tank charge vehicles which had lower AV, but in 5th you can't. What you can do to vehicles is ram them, but reinforced ram only gives the vehicle the ability to tank charge. So it basically no longer works as it is meant to.

Now by all means feel free to make up a house rule so that the rules work in 5th but that is not what the rules say. (INAT does just that and make the rule work as it did in 4th which is a blatant rule change)

Thanks for stating your opinion.

rednekgunner wrote:Also, it was written by many people who are considered to be experts in the field of 40k.

At least 50% of the people in this thread disagree with you on this one.

If you make a "run" move, you cannot charge.

If you make a "fleet" move, you can charge.

So if, at the time of movement, you "ran" or "fleeted" you can quite quickly figure out if your entitled to an assault.

You can I guess by RAW, enacting the rule after you make a standard run movement, avoid the wound chance and still benefit from the "fleet" rule but the above is how I see it/disown anyone trying to suggest otherwise. I.e purposefully avoiding a clearly stated penalty purely by abusing the semantics of an old codex played within a more recent codex.

Razerous wrote:If you make a "run" move, you cannot charge.

If you make a "fleet" move, you can charge.

There is no such thing as a 'fleet move' in 5th edition. Fleet is an ability that allows you to assault even if you ran in the shooting phase. It does not confer any movement.

sourclams:

Yes, the Waaagh! rule does confer Fleet, and Fleet is not movement. The Fleet rule enables a unit to charge in the Assault phase if it has run in the Shooting phase. This does not leave Waaagh! movement as an orphaned rule like the wargear affecting target priority. The 4th edition Ork Codex was clearly written to be compatible with both 4th and 5th edition and as such contains no orphans.

However, I can see why my argument about the identity of Waaagh! is difficult to follow, because you appear to think that it distinguishes between Waaagh! movement and running. But that's not the case. Since running is the only movement in the Shooting phase, and involves rolling 1D6, it must be running. You know, the old "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and that's all there is to being a duck, then that walking quacking thing over there must be a duck."

By the rules as written Waaagh! movement clearly exists: it's written down in the Codex for anyone to see.

By the rules as written Waaagh! necessarily has running as its movement component and as I pointed out in my first post any fiddling with the order of operations to exploit a loophole is cheating.

Given that my argument is based entirely on the rules as they are written down, I'd say that your critique of my argument as not based in the rules is plainly incorrect.

Tri:

The Fleet rule affects whether a unit can charge in the Assault phase if it has run. Since the Waaagh! rule specifies that Waaagh! movement is declared and resolved the Shooting phase, it happens in the shooting phase as running and charging in the Assault phase is resolved as if the Ork units had Fleet.

Nurglitch wrote:
Yes, the Waaagh! rule does confer Fleet, and Fleet is not movement. The Fleet rule enables a unit to charge in the Assault phase if it has run in the Shooting phase. This does not leave Waaagh! movement as an orphaned rule like the wargear affecting target priority. The 4th edition Ork Codex was clearly written to be compatible with both 4th and 5th edition and as such contains no orphans.

RAI

Also, the Reinforced Ram and Deathrolla are, if not necessarily orphans, two very unhappy step children.

However, I can see why my argument about the identity of Waaagh! is difficult to follow, because you appear to think that it distinguishes between Waaagh! movement and running. But that's not the case. Since running is the only movement in the Shooting phase, and involves rolling 1D6, it must be running. You know, the old "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and that's all there is to being a duck, then that walking quacking thing over there must be a duck."

RAI

By the rules as written Waaagh! movement clearly exists: it's written down in the Codex for anyone to see.

By RAI

By the rules as written Waaagh! necessarily has running as its movement component and as I pointed out in my first post any fiddling with the order of operations to exploit a loophole is cheating.

Let's say you have a computer macro. One of the operators is 'WAAAUGH!'. The second is 'Fleet of Foot'. The third is Wound/No Wound. The fourth is assault. When you're running your Macro in the parent program, Desktop 40K 4.0 it works fine.

Then Desktop 40k 5.0 comes out. The 'Fleet of Foot' operator no longer exists. It's been deleted from the game library and replaced with two similar operators, Run and Fleet.

Does the macro still run? Of course not. It breaks down because step 2 does not compute.

Thus your entire argument, though coherent and parsimonious, is RAI. Not RAW. It works, it makes sense in context, but just like Thunderwulf Mounts not increasing base stats to mirror Thunderwulf Cavalry, it's not RAW.

Given that my argument is based entirely on the rules as they are written down, I'd say that your critique of my argument as not based in the rules is plainly incorrect.

If you still believe this, there's nothing more to be said.

The Fleet rule affects whether a unit can charge in the Assault phase if it has run. Since the Waaagh! rule specifies that Waaagh! movement is declared and resolved the Shooting phase, it happens in the shooting phase as running and charging in the Assault phase is resolved as if the Ork units had Fleet.

By RAI

Nurglitch wrote: Since running is the only movement in the Shooting phase, and involves rolling 1D6, it must be running.

The problem with that is that the Waaagh! rule doesn't refer to movement in the shooting phase. It refers specifically to Fleet, and then goes on to list an effect that applies to 'this' movement.

In that context 'this movement' is referring to 'the movement conferred by the Fleet rule' not just any movement in the shooting phase.


That's why people say the penalty is an artefact. We're left with two options by the rules as they currently stand:

1: Assume that the reference to Waaagh Movement is an artefact like Target Priority, and as per the rulebook FAQ ignore it.
or
2: Assume that the Waaagh! rule was written in an attempt to make it forwards compatible, but this was just done rather badly, and the reference to Fleet movement should now be taken to apply to running.

I personally think that 2 is the 'correct' answer, and the way that GW will rule if they ever get around to FAQ'ing it. But 1 is a valid interpretation given the way the rule is written and the FAQ telling us to ignore obsolete rules. 1 also removes the problems caused by the Waaagh rule not specifying that it has to be called at the start of the phase...

Nurglitch wrote: You know, the old "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and that's all there is to being a duck, then that walking quacking thing over there must be a duck."

but some time it is not a duck ... its a coot. It's all very well making logical jumps but this is 40k ... logic fails.

Waaagh! is triggered in the Shooting phase but Waaagh no longer has any effect at this point. There is no movement given since all unit may run. Any movement now given by this rule are when you have to assault and so would only trigger the rule when assaulting through difficult or dangerous terrain.

It's all very well complaining about the rules being bad but thats what happens when a codex is written to run under the old rulebook and you try using it with the new rule book. Things break.

You argue this till the squigs come home. But the end all be all rules clarification we use in our town is INAT FAQ which states that you need to call your WAAAGH! then you can run, any unit that ran before the WAAAGH! don't get fleet of foot so...

sourclams:

Here's the rules as they are written:

Waaagh!, Ork Special Rules, Codex: Orks, p.31 wrote:Once per game, the Ork player can declare a Waaagh! during his Shooting phase. This many not normally be declared on the first turn as a proper Waaagh! needs some momentum behind it. For the duration of that turn, all friendly Ork infantry units have the 'fleet of foot' rule (not Gretchin units, they're far too weedy for a proper Waaagh!).

If a unit rolls a 1 when making this Waaagh! movement, the Orks start fighting before they get to the enemy. One model from that unit takes a single wound. Note that the unit may still move an inch, and assault as normal.

Clearly Waaagh! movement exists: it's written right there in the rules. Clearly Waaagh! movement happens in the Shooting phase and involves rolling 1D6. Again, it's written right there in the rules.

Fleet*, Universal Special Rules, Rulebook, p.75 wrote:There are many variants of this rule: Fleet of Foot, Fleet of Claw, even Fleet of Hoof. Title aside, all models with these abilities are treated the same. A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run.

Clearly Fleet is not movement. Permission to assault after running is not movement. The "Fleet of Foot" extension clearly exists in the 5th edition rules, referring to "Fleet". Fleet of Foot is Fleet.

Run!, The Shooting Phase, Rulebook, p.16 wrote:In their Shooting phase, units may choose to run instead of firing, immediately moving D6" (we find that this is a popular choice for units that have no ranged weaponry or no target!). Running movement is not affected by difficult terrain - it is always simply D6" - but models running through dangerous terrain must test as normal. Unit that run in the Shooting phase cannot assault in the following Assault phase.

Clearly running happens in the Shooting phase, and involves rolling 1D6.

As you can see, this is the rules as they are written and how they interact. All my claims are the claims of the rules themselves: no RAI necessary.