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HQ 1

CCS 50pts
Officer of the Fleet
3 melta guns

Total = 110pts

HQ 2

CCS 50pts
Captain Jarak (Straken)
Regimental Standard
Vox caster
2 melta guns

Total = 185pts

Priest 45pts
Eviscerator (add to blob squad)

total 60 pts

Troops

Platoon 1

PCS1
4 flamers

PIS 1
PW
Vox

PIS 2
PW

PIS 3
PW

PIS 4
PW
Krak Grenades
Melta Bombs
Commissar
PW

All PIS combined into blob
Total = 355 points for Platoon 1


Platoon 2

PCS
4 flamers

PIS 1
Autocannon

PIS 2
Autocannon


PIS 3
Autocannon


PIS 4
Autocannon


Total = 290pts


Total army cost = 1000 points

Total bodies = 99 (due to heavies)
Total Wounds = 107







Okay, so here's how I see this...

CCS 1 moves along with the left side of the field, with 2 of the infantry units with ACs. His role is to pop anything that gets close and is dangerous, and otherwise attempt to give out orders to these 2 infantry squads. He moves along with the PCS 1, who provides more orders and flamers in case someone gets assaulted, and will hose whatever is left after. Also allows for scoring.

CCS 2, with Captain Jarak (Straken) goes down centerfield, moves where needed, bolstering the blob squad, hanging opposite of CCS 1

Blob squad, moves down centerfield, and moves to take objectives, and assault whatever is in the way, or counterassault whatever is dumb enough to get close. Essentially is the defensive focal point of the army.

PCS 2 goes on right with 2 of the AC infantry squads, providing orders, and flamer backup in the event of being assaulted. May assault and flame as needed, just like PCS 1.


The hope here is, that no matter where an enemy vehicle comes my way, there is an autocannon on one end of the field or not, that can attempt to slow it down.

I have a PCS and a CCS on each side of the blob squad, and two infantry squads on either side of the blob squad.

So... Unless I get hit on 3 fronts, I should always be able to move an element forward. Assuming I get hit on one side, that element moves accordingly, with the opposite side proving long range support, or attempting to move towards objectives if unable to fire due to obstructions, etc.

Blob squad will migrate to where needed, otherwise, it's role it to push towards the enemy core, and kill anything in it's path (ideal situation) with the other squads supporting it. This assumes the enemy comes straight for it.

If the enemy splits, the weaker of the two becomes the sacrificial element, and the blob squad moves to support the stronger line, hopefully, this way, the weaker element is all that is really lost, and this is mitigated somewhat by the PCS and CCS behind it to cause as much collateral as possible.

This leaves the stronger element to move forward, kill that half of the enemy, and claim enough objectives to claim victory.


I decided to leave the special weapons behind (All my GLs) and only took one melta, due to points restrictions. I also left the one CCS relatively bare, and as a backup, instead of a long range support. That gave me enough points to put in krak grenades in the blob, take as many PWs as possible, and put both a commissar, and a tooled up priest into it.


I'm hoping my advantage here is, that I have enough wounds and bodies and sheer lasguns and otherwise to overpower the enemy at this points cost, to keep forward momentum. I've got a good concentration of enough specials I think to handle powerful things getting close, and a little of long range enough to use it when it's necessary.

If I fight a suitably CC/hoard oriented army, I know they'll perform better than me. My hope, is that FRF on the blob squad might be enough at 24 inches to weaken their main CC, then in the following turn move up and assault. In the event I can't, I still have counter-assault there to mitigate it somewhat. Though I lose the furious charge and priest's benefit. Also, it's the only squad with a Vox, other than CCS2, just to ensure the order getting through.


I understand in a small game, that AV 13 and 14 very well will be impossible to take out. Also, a heavily barrage and otherwise shooty army may simply outgun me, but I hope I have enough wounds and bodies to help mitigate that (Yay for stretching out blob squad in this case for 4+ Cover save on everyone else). I'm going to lose men one way or another, might as well be the blob squad and leave my 10 man squads relatively un-harmed. You can't kill those ACs men, and even if you shoot the pants off of the blob squad, if they get to you, they've still got all their tricks up their sleeves, and all you did was kill guardsmen.

Also, in a 1000point army, everyone is scared of AV 13/14 like I am, but unlike them, i didn't spend points on it much, and all their anti armor... Well they'll splat a few guardsmen, but not near enough to make their points back I hope.



Okay....

So that's what I've got, and that's my thought process on what I've done.


Tear it apart and learn me something I'm still new at this.

Looks pretty good. 88 scoring squishies, lots of firepower. Lack of indirect fire and low mobility may give you problems for some objective missions.

Hallo sar,
Well I'm going to do a response on your other thread at some point in the near future, and I've asked some other gents to contribute to this and that as well.

First up, I want to say I like your overall tactical perspective, but be warned: no plan ever survives contact with the enemy.



The next thing I wanted to warn you about was that in 5th ed, mobility and transports are king. It's why so many people play mechvet or aircav. I love an infantry army, I'm going to keep using it, but it is *tough*.

I reckon you should give this list a try as soon as possible, because that's the best way to get the hang of what I'm talking about, but it was a tough learning curve for me. Even though I try to have a Napoleonic-themed army (infantry, cavalry, heavy guns) I've inevitably allowed a few chimeras and a leman russ to creep in. It's very difficult to be competitive without it.

Don't get me wrong, I love what you're doing and really want you to succeed, but the ability of your opponent to maneuver to pick apart your army in detail will be telling.

It's pretty vital with a list like this to reduce your opponent's ability to outmaneuver you as soon as possible, so although it means you might have to take out some other elements, I'd heartily reccomend 3 or 4 AC's in your blob. You say you like them anyway

I can invisage your first and second turn being pretty static in order for you to pop those transports, then you can move up and engage in firefights on level ground.

Another option, of course, is to use special characters to give you outflanking ability. Al'Rahem is the obvious choice for this, and putting a medium-strength platoon on the enemy flank sows confusion and is another common tactic in 5th ed, mainly because it works. You can contest or take objectives, take shots at side armor, and roll up the rear line of your foe.

Sorry to be a bit of a downer dude but I've tried something similar, and unless you either counter enemy mobility or get your own in by some method (scout sentinels are great for this as well) you'll find yourself enraged by your inability to respond to threats effectively.

Still, give it a try anyway! I'm sure you'll have a good time

Captain Roderick wrote:Hallo sar,
Well I'm going to do a response on your other thread at some point in the near future, and I've asked some other gents to contribute to this and that as well.

First up, I want to say I like your overall tactical perspective, but be warned: no plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

Thank you very much. You have no idea how much I appreciate people like you.

On the second part, I'm fully aware of that I try my best to keep flexible in tactics. That's sort of how I tooled my army up, so either way, no matter where I get killed, since I will be killed, I should at least put up a fight.

Captain Roderick wrote:
The next thing I wanted to warn you about was that in 5th ed, mobility and transports are king. It's why so many people play mechvet or aircav. I love an infantry army, I'm going to keep using it, but it is *tough*.

I reckon you should give this list a try as soon as possible, because that's the best way to get the hang of what I'm talking about, but it was a tough learning curve for me. Even though I try to have a Napoleonic-themed army (infantry, cavalry, heavy guns) I've inevitably allowed a few chimeras and a leman russ to creep in. It's very difficult to be competitive without it.

I can understand that. I'm trying to not fall into that too much, not till later. I see it as, for every transport I take, that's a squad lost (point wise) and in a small army, losing that in one go hurts, where the same being fired at infantry, well, doesn't much. Not usually. That, and I would not be able to have any blob squad otherwise, it's just super difficult to squeeze it into a 1000 point list without having some measure of other infantry support...

Captain Roderick wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I love what you're doing and really want you to succeed, but the ability of your opponent to maneuver to pick apart your army in detail will be telling.

It's pretty vital with a list like this to reduce your opponent's ability to outmaneuver you as soon as possible, so although it means you might have to take out some other elements, I'd heartily reccomend 3 or 4 AC's in your blob. You say you like them anyway

What would you suggest taking out to put those in? Move them from my other squads? That makes my blob squad a massive point sink, and virtually all my firepower is concentrated in it. If it got assaulted or assaults, or moves, those ACs are useless, and I wouldn't have any in other places on the board... Though I could take out other things like power weapons, but that hurts the CC nature of the blob.... So I just don't know where else to squeeze points, but I'm sure there's approaches I've overlooked. I could drop the priest and add in ACs, but I fear what might happen if I do that... I don't know. What's your experience there?

Captain Roderick wrote:
I can invisage your first and second turn being pretty static in order for you to pop those transports, then you can move up and engage in firefights on level ground.

Another option, of course, is to use special characters to give you outflanking ability. Al'Rahem is the obvious choice for this, and putting a medium-strength platoon on the enemy flank sows confusion and is another common tactic in 5th ed, mainly because it works. You can contest or take objectives, take shots at side armor, and roll up the rear line of your foe.

Sorry to be a bit of a downer dude but I've tried something similar, and unless you either counter enemy mobility or get your own in by some method (scout sentinels are great for this as well) you'll find yourself enraged by your inability to respond to threats effectively.

Still, give it a try anyway! I'm sure you'll have a good time

I certainly hope to have a good time, even if I do get wiped a few times It just seems hard to be competitive without being fully mechanized. I mean sure, i could drop the blob squad, take lots of vets and chimeras and valks, etc. But what's the fun in that? It's just another basic guard army that everyone is learning to tool up against. Wouldn't you take lots of anti armor if you heard a new guard player was coming to town? That, and lots of anti armor is becoming the norm, since it even works well against non-armor heavy armies, they still have monstrous creatures, or in orks cases, the more you shoot them the better anyhow.


As for my first turn or two, I imagine I'll be mostly moving forward what I can, and only stopping to take a shot at a side armor if possible. I'd rather the transports get close enough that I can blob the occupants to death before they get a chance to shoot/assault me. That's part of why I've got meltas and the blob squad in the first place. Then again, I'm really more worried about an army that decides to stand and shoot.... I'm actually rather weapon-less for a guard army... I've only got a handful of ACs, and nothing else that shoots more than 24 inches...

I suppose I'll see how it turns out after I get it assembled.

gearheadwhat wrote:
Thank you very much. You have no idea how much I appreciate people like you.

On the second part, I'm fully aware of that I try my best to keep flexible in tactics. That's sort of how I tooled my army up, so either way, no matter where I get killed, since I will be killed, I should at least put up a fight.

Careful there laddie, don't get too attached it'll all end in tears...
And yes the best philosophy to have as InfGuard is that a draw is really a victory. After all, we can replace our losses, they can't replace theirs. Just hurt them as much as possible.

gearheadwhat wrote:
I can understand that. I'm trying to not fall into that too much, not till later. I see it as, for every transport I take, that's a squad lost (point wise) and in a small army, losing that in one go hurts, where the same being fired at infantry, well, doesn't much. Not usually. That, and I would not be able to have any blob squad otherwise, it's just super difficult to squeeze it into a 1000 point list without having some measure of other infantry support...

Transports are force multipliers though. since most missions are objective-based now, a single chimera is 2 more heavy weapons, mobile cover, an extra layer of armour, a weapon delivery system, an objective delivery system, and an objective contester, all in one. Not to say you have to use 'em, but they're very good value for the points that you spend. Consider putting one of your flamer-PCS squads that you're sending along with your blob in one, since it dramatically increases your chances of getting to use those flamers on top of all their other benefits.
Not that I want you to genericize your guard, but that's why they're so useful.

gearheadwhat wrote:
What would you suggest taking out to put those in? Move them from my other squads? That makes my blob squad a massive point sink, and virtually all my firepower is concentrated in it. If it got assaulted or assaults, or moves, those ACs are useless, and I wouldn't have any in other places on the board... Though I could take out other things like power weapons, but that hurts the CC nature of the blob.... So I just don't know where else to squeeze points, but I'm sure there's approaches I've overlooked. I could drop the priest and add in ACs, but I fear what might happen if I do that... I don't know. What's your experience there?

well I don't have time to juggle points just now, but since your main goal is your 40-man blob, I'd say put 3 melta, 1 flamer in there, 3-4 AC's, powerweapons and meltabombs on your sergeants and commie, and leave it at that. Krak grenades are ok, but if your can't mess up your enemy with that combo, you won't be able to full stop.
The rest of your army exists to facilitate that blob really, and hold your home turf. I'd consider a flamer-demo SWS in your home platoon, even if it means less GLAC squads there, since that's where your enemy will be throwing drop pods and outflankers.

Apart from that not sure what I can suggest. Try your setup, see how it fares. InfGuard should be a bit of a shock for oppos but unless you maximise on your strengths - many, many guns, at the expense of yet more mobility - you'll suffer.

gearheadwhat wrote:
I certainly hope to have a good time, even if I do get wiped a few times It just seems hard to be competitive without being fully mechanized. I mean sure, i could drop the blob squad, take lots of vets and chimeras and valks, etc. But what's the fun in that? It's just another basic guard army that everyone is learning to tool up against. Wouldn't you take lots of anti armor if you heard a new guard player was coming to town? That, and lots of anti armor is becoming the norm, since it even works well against non-armor heavy armies, they still have monstrous creatures, or in orks cases, the more you shoot them the better anyhow.


As for my first turn or two, I imagine I'll be mostly moving forward what I can, and only stopping to take a shot at a side armor if possible. I'd rather the transports get close enough that I can blob the occupants to death before they get a chance to shoot/assault me. That's part of why I've got meltas and the blob squad in the first place. Then again, I'm really more worried about an army that decides to stand and shoot.... I'm actually rather weapon-less for a guard army... I've only got a handful of ACs, and nothing else that shoots more than 24 inches...

I suppose I'll see how it turns out after I get it assembled.

The major factor about being on foot is every turn you use your heavy weapons, that's 6-12" of movement lost. The board's pretty big, so you'll either have to forego shooting or running in order to deal with your foe. Maybe go with your original planned blob, and just run it every turn until you're within 12", or get within 24" and throw out enough firepower to make 'em come to you.

The major thing you can guarantee is that if you're agressive enough with your blob, people will have to deal with it, out of fear if nothing else. I suppose your major advantage with it is going to be the psychological fear of a horde of angry mooks all up in their face, and hope they mess up as a result.

Obviously I don't want you to be using mechvet, it's tired and boring and hybrid lists with PCS and SWS in chimeras are cheaper for the same effect anyway. Valks and Vendettas have their weaknesses, don't you worry, but I'm really glad they exist because they give flexibility to the guard in a way no other unit has before. Plus they look awesome

Why don't you try an example list with Creed instead of Straken, and only 1 CCS? see what that frees up points-wise for you. You can still get Furious Charge from orders, plus you get much more flexibility out of your 'home' platoon.

catch you soon...

Captain Roderick wrote:
Careful there laddie, don't get too attached it'll all end in tears...
And yes the best philosophy to have as InfGuard is that a draw is really a victory. After all, we can replace our losses, they can't replace theirs. Just hurt them as much as possible.

No worries there. I've been around the block more than a few times I'm an ex-military guy who's learned to be more than self sufficient when I have to be. I've just learned that a little bit of honest appreciation when it's due goes a long ways. I'm tired of asking about things and getting told that it has to be a certain way, and that's it. It's refreshing to actually converse with people on a topic intelligently for a change.

As for hurting them as much as possible, I'm figuring that's my general plan of attack. I understand I'm going to lose a lot before I start to win.

Captain Roderick wrote:
Transports are force multipliers though. since most missions are objective-based now, a single chimera is 2 more heavy weapons, mobile cover, an extra layer of armour, a weapon delivery system, an objective delivery system, and an objective contester, all in one. Not to say you have to use 'em, but they're very good value for the points that you spend. Consider putting one of your flamer-PCS squads that you're sending along with your blob in one, since it dramatically increases your chances of getting to use those flamers on top of all their other benefits.
Not that I want you to genericize your guard, but that's why they're so useful.

I can see that. I do plan on expanding after this to include some transports and armor. Infantry have always been a love of mine though, and I wanted to see if it anyone else thought it was possible to do all infantry in a smaller point value game. Also, in a smaller game, I worry that only having a few of them, they would be too vulnerable and too much of a point-loss if they do get taken out.

Captain Roderick wrote:
well I don't have time to juggle points just now, but since your main goal is your 40-man blob, I'd say put 3 melta, 1 flamer in there, 3-4 AC's, powerweapons and meltabombs on your sergeants and commie, and leave it at that. Krak grenades are ok, but if your can't mess up your enemy with that combo, you won't be able to full stop.
The rest of your army exists to facilitate that blob really, and hold your home turf. I'd consider a flamer-demo SWS in your home platoon, even if it means less GLAC squads there, since that's where your enemy will be throwing drop pods and outflankers.

I guess I never though to include a flamer-demo squad. They're hefty in a certain kind of way. It's just they would have to be taken as a trade off with another, longer ranged squad, which I think is what I'm lacking, since I've only got a total of 4 ACs. But if i do drop the Priest, that's more ACs, or a SWS without losing any ACs at all. I've heard that gunlines simply don't work well anymore either, which is part of wanting more mobility, so more squads, but avoiding armor, for other reasons. I'll do some numbers tomorrow and throw up an alternate list in here, and see what people think of how they compare.

Gunlines can work sometimes - check out this batrep (even though the cameraman is hideously irritating):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k58EgjDxwWM&feature=related

Creed, loadsa guns, lotsa guys and many dead orks.

Gunlines are, in my opinion, dependent upon close-range support units and redundancy. Also careful spacing and target selection.

Demo SWS are great, because a: if they get to hit, people cry and b: they attract a lot of firepower away from your other units because they're terrifying. 65pts for muchos killpower. Just be careful in positioning them and your other units and choosing the order of squads firing so that you don't take out your own force with a bad scatter before the enemy is suitably messed up.

Also, listen to Dpaul, he knows his shizzle. I'll post more tomorrow, have fun!

That batrep was useful. And I agree, camraman sucked.

So Creed was used for his LD 10 and massive range/4 orders. I've got just about as many orders from what I've got going, though more spread out. And less infantry than that anyhow. That, and creed is really expensive and I don't like special characters, but I can see how useful he is to a large infantry army. I find it interesting that it only applies to infantry and not vehicles. Would have been nice to see some vehicular orders too, etc, but that would have been harder to balance. Seems like FRF was the most used by far. Also, he took a lot of guys and went to ground fairly often.... That effectively makes the squad useless though, since if they're already taking a lot of casualties, they won't survive another round after that anyhow... Which means they have to live through 2 rounds of shooting, though that does mean they get a slightly better cover save...

Question: If you use vets and they've got camo +1 to cover saves, does that count if it's friendly infantry in front of them as well? And that was an interesting time that the carapace armor saved a unit (which would simply have died with the ap 5 of the flamers). I like carapace armor a lot, back when it was 20 pts a squad, it was still worth it, since it meant 50% of your guys lived, instead of none, and for only 2 pts more per man, it wasn't bad. I really do miss the old doctrines, though I'm happy with the new price cut. Either way I end up with more men on the table

I see that that army did use some heavy bolters in the army list, and admittedly against basic orks may have been more useful, though if it was another army or not deployed that way it would have been better to take autocannons. They seem to be more of an all-rounder weapon. I really do love heavy bolters, but it's just so hard to want to take them over ACs, now that they're the same price.

I'll look into those SWS demo teams. Do they work as well with other weapons other than flamers?

gearheadwhat wrote:That batrep was useful. And I agree, camraman sucked.

yeah I tried watching other ones by those guys, but just couldn't get past how annoying he is. Such a shame as well, as they're really good quality otherwise...

gearheadwhat wrote:
So Creed was used for his LD 10 and massive range/4 orders.

Not exactly, the orders and range are his but the LD10 orders come from Kell. Orders are normally taken on the target squad's LD, but Kell's unique ability is to project the company commander's LD onto the squad being ordered. Together they're mean as, but in no way cheap.

gearheadwhat wrote:
I've got just about as many orders from what I've got going, though more spread out. And less infantry than that anyhow.

Yeah, but since you've already spent 85 points on Straken, you're spending more points than on just 1 CCS with Creed. Certainly just now he's a bit OTT, but once you get over 1000pts he's extremely handy. It just gives you more flexibility and scope, and plus you can give units furious charge as straken does. I'm glad you're getting the point in him anyway

gearheadwhat wrote:
That, and creed is really expensive and I don't like special characters, but I can see how useful he is to a large infantry army. I find it interesting that it only applies to infantry and not vehicles. Would have been nice to see some vehicular orders too, etc, but that would have been harder to balance. Seems like FRF was the most used by far.

Yeah Vehicular orders would be insane, since all vehicles count as LD10. Plus can you imagine the terrifying firepower an Executioner with plasma sponsons would have if you could issue BiD or FoMT to it.
The main reason I was breaking your special characters taboo was because you're already using Straken, and it just seems you might be able to save more points with Creed and only a single CCS.
That guy used FRF a lot, and certainly against infantry targets it's great. But all the orders are useful in the right circumstances. FoMT can punch through smoke launchers, MMM! is handy all the time, and GBiTF also great for keeping your units in play, denying your opponent kill points in the process or moving back onto your objective. Also for something I'm about to mention...

gearheadwhat wrote:
Also, he took a lot of guys and went to ground fairly often.... That effectively makes the squad useless though, since if they're already taking a lot of casualties, they won't survive another round after that anyhow... Which means they have to live through 2 rounds of shooting, though that does mean they get a slightly better cover save...

Ah, you see, GBiTF allows you to become unpinned and immediately shoot or run so you can go to ground in your oppo's turn, get a better cover save, then pop up again with the order and blaze away happily for a normal turn of shooting. It's a shame you can't stack orders, but that would be megagooby, going from pinned to FRF!. Still, very handy indeed.

gearheadwhat wrote:
Question: If you use vets and they've got camo +1 to cover saves, does that count if it's friendly infantry in front of them as well? And that was an interesting time that the carapace armor saved a unit (which would simply have died with the ap 5 of the flamers). I like carapace armor a lot, back when it was 20 pts a squad, it was still worth it, since it meant 50% of your guys lived, instead of none, and for only 2 pts more per man, it wasn't bad. I really do miss the old doctrines, though I'm happy with the new price cut. Either way I end up with more men on the table

Yes, the stealth universal special rule applies to all cover saves, although obviously flamers kill you just as dead. And the current system certainly encourages you to have more troops and less wargear (apart from weaponry), which is TBH more Guardy from my perspective. You can still do the interesting stuff, but that requires you to sacrifice numbers.

gearheadwhat wrote:
I see that that army did use some heavy bolters in the army list, and admittedly against basic orks may have been more useful, though if it was another army or not deployed that way it would have been better to take autocannons. They seem to be more of an all-rounder weapon. I really do love heavy bolters, but it's just so hard to want to take them over ACs, now that they're the same price.

Agreed. Heavy bolters are generally less useful, but if you've got a big army it's probably worth keeping some around.

gearheadwhat wrote:
I'll look into those SWS demo teams. Do they work as well with other weapons other than flamers?

yeah, I personally wouldn't give them plasma (save plasma for BS4 models like vets and CC squads, then use BiD where possible to re-roll 1's) but against MEQ's or armies that like to get in your face with armor, 2x melta/demo works, and on foot when I think I might be engaging more at medium range I use 2 GL's with my demo. That makes the squad useful at medium and close range.

So I tend to run a combined arms IG list, but I have run some low point infantry lists in this edition. It is a tough road, but to look on your opponents face as you flood the field can be very satisfying. I've got a few bits of advice, take it or leave it.
1) Have you considered taking Commander Chenkov. He's cheap at 50pts IIRC, and provides a 12" Stubborn bubble and has a 12" range for his orders. Sure his other abilities and limited orders are not awesome, but he makes advancing infantry more durable, particularly against charge-y armies. If the point is to have more guys than your opponent, you can't have them running off!
2) What makes the guard infantry scary is numbers. There are two important ways that numbers matter, the first is to old hack about boots on the ground. If you have more bodies than your opponent you have several advantages. I obviously don't need to preach that here. In all honesty, while I love the lowly dog-face grunt as much as the next guy, your average guardsman with his lasgun is not a combat nightmare. The biggest advantage the Guard have is the fact that roughly every third guy can be holding a heavy or special weapon.

I understand that you have a specific theme in mind with your army, but you shouldn't limit yourself until you've played a dozen or so games.
Infantry armies can work in this edition, but it really relies on being able to focus your efforts better than your opponent. You need to out play him in every phase. You have to outdeploy, and when possible outmanouver him. Outshoot him with your big guns (and little ones. I'm talking to you laspistols) and outsmart him in the assault phase, cause lets face it, even with the priestblob you're not going to deliver a whole bunch of whoopass.

I guess my best advice is to play as often as possible, against as many different players and armies as you can. Good luck!