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Hey guys/girls,

I also have some questions. Last week I had my first battle using the new DE codex.
I was wondering how te Feel no Pain rule works.
Example: If a warriorsquad with Sv 5+ got shot with an AP5 weapon, this means they may not take an armour save.
My opponent said that I also wasn't allowed to take the feel-no-pain save. Well in my opinion the feel no pain save is
not allowed against AP1 or AP2 weapons and power weapons in cc etc.
What is the right interpretation? Am I allowed to take the Feel-no-pain save?
If I read the battle repport in last WD, I see he takes the save with his warriors even when he is been flamed by AP 4 or AP 5.

Another question about the choice weapons.
For example: The haemonculus chooses to take a powerweapon and as extra wargear scissorhands (extra attack and 3+ poisoned)
Does this mean that all attacks he makes are 3+ poisoned and no armour saves are allowed?
I thought this is a little too much of the good stuff, but maybe it is the correct way.
Could anyone explain this to me?

Thanks in advance,

The above was erroneously posted in the following thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329797.page

Anyone want to take a crack at either of the above?

1: Yes, the Kabalites would get the FnP.

2: No, as they are two SCCW's and so he may only choose one to use per round.

Just my £0.02

I agree.

Here's the more detailed version, in case Forgithy wants it:

Feel No Pain is negated by:
1. Any attack whose Strength is double or more the target's Toughness.
2. Any AP1 or AP2 shooting attack.
3. Any wound which, by definition, never allows an armor save. Such as power weapons, monstrous creatures, and wounds from Dangerous terrain.

An AP5 gun doesn't fall into category 2 or category 3. It could possibly fall into category 1- like an Eldar Shuriken Cannon, which is S6, shooting a Dark Eldar with T3.

Second question:

If you check the main rulebook, you'll see that the rules for special close combat weapons (ones that have cool special rules) require you to pick using one of them on any given round of combat if a given model is equipped with multiple different special close combat weapons.

So a Haemonculous armed with a power weapon and scissorhands would have to choose one or the other each round of combat.

Mannahnin wrote:I agree.

Here's the more detailed version, in case Forgithy wants it:

Feel No Pain is negated by:
1. Any attack whose Strength is double or more the target's Toughness.
2. Any AP1 or AP2 shooting attack.
3. Any wound which, by definition, never allows an armor save. Such as power weapons, monstrous creatures, and wounds from Dangerous terrain.

An AP5 gun doesn't fall into category 2 or category 3. It could possibly fall into category 1- like an Eldar Shuriken Cannon, which is S6, shooting a Dark Eldar with T3.

Second question:

If you check the main rulebook, you'll see that the rules for special close combat weapons (ones that have cool special rules) require you to pick using one of them on any given round of combat if a given model is equipped with multiple different special close combat weapons.

So a Haemonculous armed with a power weapon and scissorhands would have to choose one or the other each round of combat.

Agreed on both.

And on that second question topic, the DE codex Wrack unit has a Sgt-style upgrade called an 'Acothyst'. As with all Wracks he starts with a pair of poisoned weapons (4+).

He has the option to take two other kinds of poisoned weapons, a scissorhand (3+ poison, plus a bonus attack) and the fleshgauntlet (4+ poison, but also causes instant death).

So even those these two options are poisoned weapons, their rules are different form the standard poison weapons he carries so in order to get the bonus attack for having two weapons in combat with either one of those options he would have to also take a 'stinger pistol', as that's the only non-special close combat weapon he can get.


The DE codex really is a bit crazy with the number of wacky special weapons you can get on one a model!

Umm... Are you sure about the scissorhands? It is an upgrade and not a CCW.

I think this is important becos you could conceivably:

1 normal CCW
1 special wpn
upgraded with Scissorhand for a total of 7 attacks for a charging ancient.

Not trying to start a fight mind... A player commented that scissorhands is like an extra arm (ref. Urien) but I can also see why you would rule the hands as another CCW.

"[A Scissorhand] is a poisoned weapon..." Page 61

It's a CCW and not a general upgrade.

A scissorhand specifically states that it "grants +1 Attacks". Similar to the djinn blade, I would think that it adds an attack no matter what you are using.

Thanks guys on the comments,

but what about an Heamonculus with Scissorhands (+1 attack {+2 attacks with other ccw} and 3+ poisoned) and Animu Vitea (ccw, special effect: if bearer kills one or more in cc, may do Ld-test, if passed he gains a pain-token).

Does this mean he has 2 special ccw and has to choose which one to use each cc-round?
Or is he allowed to have 2+ attack and if he kills someone he may do a Ld-test for a pain-token?

He has 2 special CCW (as the 'hands are not "normal" theya re by default special) therefore must choose.

He always gainst the extra attack for having the 'hands, as that is independent of actually USING the hands.

This means he CANNOT get the 2CCW extra attack, as per page 42, but you CAN use the Animus Vitae as your special weapon while gaining an extra attack from the scissor hands.

Why can't he get the 2 CCW extra attack, because he has a standard CCW, a splinterpistol ( 2 CCW) also he can have the animus vitea and the scissorhands, this would mean a normal Heamonculus would get 2 standard attacks, 1 extra for 2 CCW, 1 extra for scissorhands and 1 for attacking, which means 5 attacks while using the animus vitea?

2 DIFFERENT special CCW means you NEVER gain the bonus attack for 2 CCW.

Animus and Hands are 2 different special CCW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:2 DIFFERENT special CCW means you NEVER gain the bonus attack for 2 CCW.

Animus and Hands are 2 different special CCW.

If you only have two weapons ... if you have more then two weapons then you must pick two weapons before you can use any of the "Fighting with two single handed weapons" rules; if you do not choose two weapons then you can never use the "two different special weapons" rule as you are not using two weapons.

Except nothing gives you permission to pick only two weapons, so you never attack

Or, you use the rules you DO have - in which case you never gain an extra attack.

Only two possible options.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except nothing gives you permission to pick only two weapons, so you never attack

Or, you use the rules you DO have - in which case you never gain an extra attack.

Only two possible options.

Two different special weapons is part of a list ... which is part of "fighting with two single handed weapons" I can have over 9000! weapons and still fight with two weapons.

Pick two look at the list, works fine .... Look at the list first, doesn't work as you've ignore the first rule. Problems would arrise with models with more then two special weapons as they don't fall under "Two different special weapons"

Nothing lets you select only two weapons to then review the list.

Show permission to pick 2 weapons, based on that page 42, which as we all know doesnt conceive of the chances of more than 2 CCW.

Ah, i see we have started a new month...

Must be time for this debate again.

We have no rules for fighting with more than 3 weapons.

We have no rules for dealing with models carrying more than 2 weapons.

The only rule we have that allows for choosing any weapons with which to fight is when a model is carrying 2 special weapons.

You never fight with 2 special weapons, whenever a model Has 2 special weapons, that model must choose which 1 weapon to fight with, and never gains a bonus attack for 2 CCWs.

The main entry is for models that are carrying 2 single-handed CCWS(of some sort); the rules below it detail what you can Fight with. The only one of those rules that allow you any choice is 2 different Special CCWs, and it only allows you to choose 1 weapon to fight with.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
The main entry is for models that are carrying 2 single-handed CCWS(of some sort)

my copy says Use ... if I'm not using it, then it doen't matter, you cannot weild more then two weapons

No your copy says: "equipped with two single weapons that they can use in close combat, with the rules given below"

Everybody's argument that it says "Use" is laughable because you are taking 1 word from a sentence and applying that word to your argument out of context.

Yes you "Use" a combination of weapons chosen from the list; based on what you are "equipped" with. The only item on the list that allows a choice of weapon from those that you are equipped with is 2 different Specials.

nosferatu1001 wrote:He has 2 special CCW (as the 'hands are not "normal" theya re by default special) therefore must choose.

He always gainst the extra attack for having the 'hands, as that is independent of actually USING the hands.

This means he CANNOT get the 2CCW extra attack, as per page 42, but you CAN use the Animus Vitae as your special weapon while gaining an extra attack from the scissor hands.

I completely disagree.


Again back to the argument on page 42 of the rules. When it comes to the rules for 'fighting with two single-handed weapons' we have one of two possible interpretations:

1) That the four options provided are the options for models 'carrying' said weapons.
2) That the four options provided are the possible combinations for models 'using' said weapons.


The first interpretation breaks down completely because it does not present rules for models carrying anything more than two weapons. Just one example, if a model is carrying three special weapons, where is the category and rules for that?

However, if you interpret that the rules are for how models wield (use) these different combinations then the rules work perfectly fine in all situations. And also one cannot simply disregard the rules from the section the rules fall in.

The rule is called (emphasis mine): 'Fighting' with two Single-Handed Weapons' and the first line in that section says (again, emphasis mine):

"Some models are equipped with two-singled handed weapons they can use in combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."


So IMHO it is pretty clear that the rules are in fact referring to the USE of two weapons and how they interact together.

I'm not saying the other interpretation is incorrect, just that you have to accept that it does not cover any possibilities except the four explicitly listed. So if a Wrack Sergeant (whatever that guy is called) has two poisoned weapons and also takes a Scissorhand (for example), then he has THREE special weapons, something not covered by the possibilities listed on page 24 if you assume that those are the rules for weapons that models are 'carrying'.



Second, I'm curious by what criteria are you assuming that some abilities of a special close combat weapon apply (when used with another special close combat weapon) and others don't apply? Why would the +1A bonus provided by a Scissorhand be in effect when using another special close combat weapon when other aspects of it would be disallowed (the 3+ poision rule, for example)? As far as I can tell, if a weapon has special close combat rules then it is a special close combat weapon and therefore all 'special' aspects of it would be disallowed when using another special close combat weapon.

Yeah, the Scissorhand entry doesn't have any ambiguous language like "bearer," the +1 attack only activates if it is the active weapon.

As an aside, a weapon that might have some special rules still active even if it isn't being used actively would be the Djinn Blade, whose bonus attacks seem to be independent of what the Archon is wielding that turn.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Yeah, the Scissorhand entry doesn't have any ambiguous language like "bearer," the +1 attack only activates if it is the active weapon.

As an aside, a weapon that might have some special rules still active even if it isn't being used actively would be the Djinn Blade, whose bonus attacks seem to be independent of what the Archon is wielding that turn.

But I don't even understand that distinction. For example, the Animus Vitae says:

"The Animus Vitae is a special close combat weapon. If the bearer kills one or more enemy models...blah, blah, blah...he gains a pain token."


So the Animus Vitae is a special close combat weapon whose only specialty is to give 'the bearer' the ability to gain a pain token. Obviously this is the only possible ability that is gained by using the 'special' portion of the weapon.

So who exactly decided that when a special close combat weapon references abilities given to 'its bearer' this means these rules get used even if the weapon isn't?

I mean, hell, the power weapon description in the rulebook says:

"Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armor saves."


Do we all see the congruity here between what is being argued with the Djinn Blade and the Power Weapon rules?

If a weapon does ANYTHING special in close combat then it is a special close combat weapon and that weapon must be actively fought with to utilize those special rules regardless of what those rules do.


So a Djinn Blade does absolutely nothing when not fought with in CC just like a power weapon does absolutely nothing when not fought with in CC.

I agree with the Yak.

Because "bearer" is independent of using it.

Equipped is the key word in that phrase, not (can) "use"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because "bearer" is independent of using it.

Where exactly is that distinction made in the rules? In fact, as I pointed out in the core rulebook rules, the main special close combat weapon, a power weapon, says that a model 'armed with' (not 'using') a power weapon ignores armor saves. There is NO distinction in the rules. If a weapon has rules for being used in close combat then it is a special close combat weapon and ALL those rules are ignored if the weapon isn't used, regardless of how they're referred to.

Equipped is the key word in that phrase, not (can) "use"

And again, that interpretation fails completely as soon as you apply it to the game because there are plenty of models that are equipped with more than two single handed weapons that can be used in close combat. So any model that has (as just one example) two special weapons and a regular close combat weapon has NO rules to follow because they don't fall into ANY of the categories presented.

So your interpretation cannot actually be applied to the game and work, whereas the other interpretation works perfectly fine in all situations regardless of how many weapons models are equipped with.

Except where is that defined in the rules?

"Bearer" is defined perfectly well in the English language. Same as 90% of the non-internally defined terms starting with "a".

Equipped is clearly the defining word, as "can use" has a choice implied - at the very least the "can" implies uncertainty. I've also covered the rules breaking further up. Either you make no attacks OR you are restricted by the "never"

The fluff is telling - having 2 special CCW makes you unable to gain the bonus because of the penalty for wielding such complex items. Apparently adding even more CCW makes that penalty disappear....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except where is that defined in the rules?

"Bearer" is defined perfectly well in the English language. Same as 90% of the non-internally defined terms starting with "a".

Equipped is clearly the defining word, as "can use" has a choice implied - at the very least the "can" implies uncertainty. I've also covered the rules breaking further up. Either you make no attacks OR you are restricted by the "never"

The fluff is telling - having 2 special CCW makes you unable to gain the bonus because of the penalty for wielding such complex items. Apparently adding even more CCW makes that penalty disappear....

All of which does not matter till you have picked two weapons as it is a sub rule, part of a list, for Fighting with two single handed weapons. If you are using more then two weapons you do not read that rule, ever.

To use 'Fighting with two single handed weapons' you must choose two weapons; once you done that you look at the list to see the effect.

Yet you never fight with two weapons - you use just one.

You also have no permission, ANYWHERE, on that page to pick the two weapons you then review the list on.

WHich was the point I made before - show permission, on that page, to pick 2 weapons. You cant, which is the point...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet you never fight with two weapons - you use just one.

You also have no permission, ANYWHERE, on that page to pick the two weapons you then review the list on.

WHich was the point I made before - show permission, on that page, to pick 2 weapons. You cant, which is the point...

... You can ether use none of the rules on that page or pick two so you can. It is one of several rules that was spelt out in 4th but has to be assumed in 5th. Everything in that list is about use/wielding two weapons.

Apart from the line about being "equipped", which the "ignore that you have no permission to pick just 2 weapons" side repeatedly demote in importance.

The point i made was: either dont attack, as you have no rules allowing you to pick 2 weapons in order to then USE 1 of them, OR accept the "NEVER" restriction as being as absolute as the word "NEVER" implies.

I've said this about 3 times now.....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Apart from the line about being "equipped", which the "ignore that you have no permission to pick just 2 weapons" side repeatedly demote in importance.

The point i made was: either dont attack, as you have no rules allowing you to pick 2 weapons in order to then USE 1 of them, OR accept the "NEVER" restriction as being as absolute as the word "NEVER" implies.

I've said this about 3 times now.....

And if we take calgar we have three special close combat weapons, So that rule soesn't apply to him?
You pick two before you look at the list which you keep ignoring.