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As I am starting a nid army i have been reading the threads here on nid tactics and it has been very helpful , but i find that i learn more about to play something well if i know it's weaknesses rather than it's strengths .If we could keep the "this unit sucks" and such to a minimum it would be nice. I am look for more general info along lines of " units with saves of 2+ are almost impossible for you to kill" and such.

Tanks hiding at long range will be a problem for you. The Zoanthrope and Hive Guard have to be relatively close in order to hurt the enemy's tanks, and especially an army like artillery or tank heavy IG will just be able to pound you into submission from across the board. Take out the synapse creatures, and all those gaunts will just start wandering around doing their own thing.

That's the most blatant weakness of the 'Nids to me, of course as an IG player I don't have the experience playing 'Nids to know how to answer in more detail.

Assaulting units in cover can be a problem as units such as genestealers don't have assault grenades or similar.

Too much reliance on BS3 for shooting is a weakness.

Loss of eternal warrior/lack of invul saves can leave MCs vulnerable to high STR low AP shooting. Warriors under risk of instant kill with T4.

Too much emphasis on elite slots, narrowing army selection - only reliable shooty AV is hive guard and zoanthropes.

Certain units are less than optimal:

bad bracket: pyrovore
quite bad: lictor, deathleaper, ripper swarms
jurys out: shrikes, harpy, tyrannofex, cc warriors, biovore, doom following FAQ.

Synapse is a weakness and a strength. Fearless is great when being shot at, but in combat can be fatal if there are multiple combats going on. You can minimize the need for synapse if you take a few units that don't need it....genestealers spring to mind.

Shooting at range is also at a premium. We pay a ton of points for a T-fex, and they aren't that reliable. Not that I shy away from them. They are necessary in some builds, but our best unit in possibly the whole codex is Hive guard...24" range...not great. But on the other hand they are tough enough to take a beating and still deliver.

Anti-tank. Now we can deal with AV, but it isn't always easy when your opponent has decent target priority. Make sure you bring multiple units that can deal with it because 1 unit just isn't enough.

Another weakness that I have been thinking about recently is flexibility. Nids generally don't get an upgrade flamer or ML type weapon for a squad/brood. We spam something very task specific in each unit. Now while this can be great (30 gaunts with devourers...hur hur) it can be really devastating when your anti infantry has to face down a tank with no other viable targets. So to make sure this doesn't happen you can do a few things:

A. Take multiple of the same kind of unit, or another unit that can fulfil the same task.
B. Be very careful in deployment and movement. Nids are the kings when it comes to this. We have some nasty units that limits your opponents options or add some real psychological value to the battlefield.

thank-you this exactly the kind of stuff i was looking for.

You asked for weaknesses, here are some of those I have to face every now and then:

1.- Short range shooting weapons (biovores and t-fexes are the only exception), you need to get close to have any chance of shooting almost anything, exposing yourself to a tyranid-killing counter-attack. Remember that if you lose your chance charge, half the fight can be lost.
2.- 5th Ed. assault aftermath rules: there's no way now to do a sweeping advance and get engaged CC to another enemy unit, no matter how close they were, so think about one-shot assault units, since after destroying an enemy unit CC, they will stand there to be shot down like dummies, and being shot at is and will ever be tyranids bane. (which I always found fair enough, BTW).
3.- Synapse synergy: if that instinctive unit was not in range BEFORE moving, you have no chance of covering it during your movement phase or later in the turn, so check carefully where your synapse units are at the end of your last turn, or face losing control of your bugs for all your current turn.
4.- Spore limitations: T4 (=AV 8!!!), BS2, no chance of re-embarking for cover and you cannot deepstrike a unit along a joined IC, poor reflection of a drop pod for 5 more points. Pitiful resource you have to manage for your limited options to dropstrike, and it is not even an "assault vehicle", so dropstriking units will disembark and stand there just like stated at point 2, remember what that meant? Yeah, I hate that too.

To be continued...

Another is that Nid armies tend to live or die on their cover saves. If you don't make good use of available cover (be that terrain pieces, or cover you bring in the form of venomthropes or screening units), you will probably get shot to pieces before you get close enough to om nom the opposition.

Protect your Big bugs from thunder hammers.

Weaknesses:
1. poor ranged anti-tank/vehicle. Yes hive guard are great for anti-vehicle but they are short ranged and even shorter versus DE. Zoanthropes have a powerful lance weapon if it goes off. You may find zoeys unreliable because there are so many die rolls needed and they are very short-ranged. You have to pass a psychic test, then hit the target, get a good roll on the damage table - if anti-psychic goodies are in your opponents army this may shut down the zoeys. To mitigate the short range you might pod them in but then expect one shot before they are killed or locked in CC and killed eventually. The T-fex has great range and str10 but you are paying 265 points for 2 x BS3 shots - that has been underwhelming for me. Some people try to use the heavy venom cannon to stun vehicles to prevent their shooting until the CC guys arrive. Though this works for some people sometimes, the heavy venom cannon is not very good - surprisingly worse than last dex.

2. synapse provides fearless which is nice but be very careful to avoid getting caught in multi-unit charges where an enemy can win the combat, put a lot of damage on a weak unit like gaunts causing another nid creature to take no retreat wounds in addition to the gaunts. This can be nasty.

3. Assaulting for nids has a few weaknesses you need to be clear on. If assaulting vehicles, expect that if you do actually destroy the vehicle, the squishy bits inside will usually be able to blast the unit along with any other units available to shoot in addition. Assaulting into cover, which is everywhere (and which you need for protection to get your army to its objectives), is difficult. ALmost none of the CC units in the dex has frag grenade equivalents (stealers, hormagaunts, raveners, trygons, CC warriors, etc), therefore expect that your CC unit will strike last on the turn of assault. So you need the unit to be able to weather that initial damage and still be able to put out sufficient return damage.

4. T4 critters can be cut down easily. Warriors, raveners, etc are all vulnerable to str8+ weapons which may be in abundance (missile spam, lascannon spam, etc). One failed save a 3 wound (or 2 wound) model dies. In CC powerfists cut down multi-wound models quickly which may hurt your combat resolution. You need to have enough other threats that the enemy ignores the T4 models for the first few turns shooting at MCs.

5.Some rules do not work or you must be careful to make them work. Lictor pheromone trail and trygon tunnel do not work properly - they are unreliable to depend on. Other rules that may be synergistic you may have to be careful with. For example, if you have a walking hive tyrant following hormagaunts to support them with things like paroxysm or old adversary it is easy if not paying attention for the hormagaunts to move and assault out of the short range of these tyrant abilities.

The nids have strengths to obviously, so if you try to address your armies' weaknesses (and at least understand them) as much as you can then you will be better prepared for a good game. Enjoy your nids.

Ventus wrote:Assaulting into cover, which is everywhere (and which you need for protection to get your army to its objectives), is difficult. ALmost none of the CC units in the dex has frag grenade equivalents (stealers, hormagaunts, raveners, trygons, CC warriors, etc), therefore expect that your CC unit will strike last on the turn of assault. So you need the unit to be able to weather that initial damage and still be able to put out sufficient return damage.

Yeah, nids are quite the masters at enduring damage and hitting last
*sarcasm spasm*

Oh, and thank you GW for extracting any type of assault grenades, except for lictors and carnifexes (thank god, carnifexes can have them... ), in a traditionally CC inclined army, thank you so much.
*sarcasm chasm*

Big bugs need to worry about PK in boyz mobs for one. You cant single out the nob, and that PK wounds on 2s and ignores armor saves. BigBugs also need to fear anything AP3, and most armies can bring alot of AP3 or better weapons. I can tell ya that when Im facing my wifes nids, I bring rokkits to the party, and as many as I can muster too. It feels almost like cheating taking wounds from them big basterds so easily.


As an Ork player though I fear both types of gaunts. Hormaguants because they are simply better in CC then my boyz are. If she gets the assault I lose boyz in droves. Termagaunts with devorers make me a bit antsy as well. They mulch up the boyz just as easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ENKHANNA wrote:

Ventus wrote:Assaulting into cover, which is everywhere (and which you need for protection to get your army to its objectives), is difficult. ALmost none of the CC units in the dex has frag grenade equivalents (stealers, hormagaunts, raveners, trygons, CC warriors, etc), therefore expect that your CC unit will strike last on the turn of assault. So you need the unit to be able to weather that initial damage and still be able to put out sufficient return damage.

Yeah, nids are quite the masters at enduring damage and hitting last
*sarcasm spasm*

Oh, and thank you GW for extracting any type of assault grenades, except for lictors and carnifexes (thank god, carnifexes can have them... ), in a traditionally CC inclined army, thank you so much.
*sarcasm chasm*

Yea that one got me as well

Something to consider about Tyranid Warriors and the like is to regard them as equivalent to single wound models of similar points value, like Terminators. Their vulnerability to Instant Death offsets their inability to be killed by a lucky lasgun shot.

I've found this vulnerability really takes the pressure off my big bugs in a way smaller and yet more dangerous broods like Termagants can't.

Speaking of Instant Death, Pyrovores are the Tyranid answer to units with embedded Power Fists. They don't need Synapse because they can fire their Flamespurt regardless of Instinctive Behaviour, have Acid Blood, and explode if they suffer Instant Death.

Plus they have a nice big base to fit models around...

Yeah... but pyrovores suck.
having to rely on them dying as an advantage says a lot about their awsomeness.

It's not only relying on them dying, it's relying on your opponent to kill them a specific way. Anyone who knows the rules of a Pyrovore just isn't going to hit it with anything that causes instant death. Problem solved, only conceivable advantage of the model neutralized.

A model armed with a single special close combat weapon has to use that weapon. So if the Pyrovore survived all the Ork boyz attacks, then a Nob would be obliged to hit it with its Power Klaw.

But the Pyrovore's Acid Blood means that you don't have to rely on your opponent killing them in a specific way, just wounding them in close combat is enough.

If they don't die, then their own Acid Maw acts as a Power Weapon. Sure, they don't have many attacks, but they have a Heavy Flamer that doesn't need Synapse to fire.

Shooting Phase

I agree with OP, that it's important to cover your armies weaknesses, to prevent your opponent from taking too much advantage of it.

I do agree with most of you on your weakness points, but find it important to add, that there's ways around it, in alot of cases;

AV-support
- Poor AV-range is a huge issue. When you get into range, however, even glancing hit rolls aids the army, by limiting the vehicle damage output or rendering them stunned/immobile for your MCs to close in and take them out.

Synapse
- Synapse comes down to deployment and being considerate on your advance. Having it in the back of your head at all times may prevent you from ending up out of Synapse.

Assaulting into Cover
- Is a huge issue - especially in Lists that have several roaming units, like outflanking 'stealers. One way of getting around it, however, is from Lash Whips or Hive Tyrant Paroxysm and Adrenal Glands on your bugs. Another way is to assault units already engaged or pinned.

T4 Instant Death
- MC target saturation and/or FnP counters T4 ID. Having a good cover-wall together with FnP gives your bugs a double-safe against Kraks and other nasty str 8+ stuff.

Powerfists/Assault Units
- Just about every army got these, and i mostly counter the Assault Termie kind. The best way i've found to counter these guys, is by using a screen of small creatures, to deny them a free path into my big bugs. By doing so, they're bound to stay out of assault, or attack my little guys. and in my following turn (if they assaulted the little ones) recieve pain from my big guys whilst being forced to hit the smaller units.
Note, that with a proper setup/psychic buffs, even the little bugs (such as Termagants) is able to put out some damage, and in alot of my games are the main unit used to "efficiently" down these units or aid the big bugs in doing so!

Generally, there's great weaknesses to be found. But amongst most of them, smart thinking and utilizing your units can help minimizing these aswell. Be smart, think ahead, and don't act any more reckless than you can afford to act.

Um, I don't see how FNP will help against stuff that can ID.

It gives your bugs an extra save against Missile Spammers.

It gives the big bugs a roll to ignore a wound that they otherwise wouldn't get from armour or invulnerability. Being able to give a whole brood of Carnifexen Feel No Pain doubles the average number of Missile Launcher shots they can swallow without cover.

But instant death is one of those things that cancels out feel no pain I thought? So yeah it'd work with the 'fex, but would it do anything to help the T4 creatures we were trying to save earlier?

I had my RAWs wrong on this one... Hardly ever play with the T4-critters anyways... It's all wings 'n' MCs on my end...

My apologies!

Seriously. FNP is denied by anything that would normally deny an armor save. Since missles are 3+, carnifexes get no FnP and neither do warriors. Just because you can make a save (cover save) doesn't mean you get FnP if it denies armor.

Only S8 weapon that isn't also AP3 or less that springs readily to mind is... Impaler cannon? I guess if you're facing nids?

Wait, no. Star Lances too. S8 Ap4 as well.


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And yeah, even then, ID negates FNP

FNP is not negated by ap3 that is not double the toughness.

sennacherib wrote:Yeah... but pyrovores suck.
having to rely on them dying as an advantage says a lot about their awsomeness.

Also they take up an elite slot you need for Zoeanthropes, Venomthropes, Hive Guard and Ymgarl Genestealers.

I think intelligent people have worked out in the past year that the current Tyranid codex isn't top tier. It relies on some clever play to get the best out of it.

Doomthumbs wrote:Seriously. FNP is denied by anything that would normally deny an armor save. Since missles are 3+, carnifexes get no FnP and neither do warriors. Just because you can make a save (cover save) doesn't mean you get FnP if it denies armor.

No, it isn't. FNP is denied by attacks that allow no armor saves, which is Ap1 and 2 or power weapons and stuff like that. Denying that particular model's armor save isn't enough to deny FNP. Otherwise Plaguebearers would be looking pretty darn silly since they have FNP and no armor save at all.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think intelligent people have worked out in the past year that the current Tyranid codex isn't top tier. It

This explains a lot of the issues I have with Tyranid comp.

And it could be a really awesome codex with just a few fixes to blatantly broken or wildly outlandish rules. Imagine what a spore/reserve 'nid army would look like if the Lictor's bonus either applied from reserves (less preferred) or he was able to infiltrate as normal (the one I prefer more). One fix, one sentence, barely a handful of words and BAM you have opened up an entire play style for the codex that people would be frothing at the mouth to enjoy, would be extremely fluffy and a rallying point for the codex. Trygon's reserve tunnel, let you dedicate the unit you want to use his tunnel during deployment and whenever he comes in they come in the next turn automatically. Congratulations GW I just fixed your rule with one sentence. Carnifex? Seriously a price reduction is all we want. Reverse your asinine shadow in the warp and Tyranid Prime/spore ruling. T5 2 wound Warriors. This is stuff that could be done in half an hour and would just blow the codex out of the water in terms of functionality.

It's a shame really.

kirsanth:

Could you elaborate?

Which part? Tyranid comp?

If so, I have posted on it previously. Here is a thread I started asking for feedback.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313857.page

I would love to hear more.