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Was wondering how the comunity handles Gets Hot! and how they should be treatet RAW.
Do you roll one and one die seeing if you get a one? Or is it model by model? Or the entire squad at the same time?
Example: My veteransquad is in rapid fire range, so gets 6 shots. let's say I roll Yatzee and gets 6x1's... I presume i only lose 3 guys, as it's the model fireing that takes the wound.(if i remember correctly).
Question then is what if I rolled 3 x1's? Seems smarter to roll 1 and 1 die then...reduces risk of Wounds as I can get 2 1's on one model.

Then it's the question of speeding the game up. Seems to slow it down quite abit if I need to roll one and one die. So, how do you handle it?

If you're rapid firing, 2 dice per model at a time (or all at once using different colored sets).

If you're firing single shots, one die per model at a time (or all at once using different colored dice).

In your example, i usually roll per gun, as the way i interpret the rules is that if your plasma gun overheats, you take the wound instead of shooting, so if i roll a 6 and a 1, no hits except to myself. 'Course, this slows it down a bit unless you have different coloured dice...and it means my plasma gunners usually die as soon as they rapid fire.

Yeah, i read the rules that way too...the guy with the plasma gun is the only one that gets hurt if it overheats.

This↑ - You have to either roll one at a time or use different dice.

Wounds from Gets Hot! do not carry over and cannot be allocated to other models in the squad.

What about Strakens plasmapistol if he got bodyguards?
Must he give his wound to the bodyguard? His 3+ save is better than the bodyguards, but I guess you don't have a choice.

Would look weird I think hehe Pistol going hot, so he throws it to his bodyguard

If I have multiple models in a squad that a using a weapon that Gets Hot!, I roll to hit for each individual model and then roll to wound all together. It allows you to see who's weapon over heats and take save accordingly.

No, Sproot, you don't have a choice.

Do re-rolls have any effect on the gets hot rule?

Yes, because the first roll never happened. If you roll a 1 on your second roll (the reroll) you will Gets Hot

You CANNOT allocate the wound away - you are breaking the GH! rule if you do.

IG-Sqroot wrote:What about Strakens plasmapistol if he got bodyguards?
Must he give his wound to the bodyguard? His 3+ save is better than the bodyguards, but I guess you don't have a choice.

Would look weird I think hehe Pistol going hot, so he throws it to his bodyguard

The "Look Out - Arghh!" rule specifically says that the wounds need to be caused by the enemy. So, it doesn't apply to things like Gets Hot or Dangerous Terrain or Perils or even your own blast weapons scattering onto your unit.

papathrax wrote: you take the wound instead of shooting, so if i roll a 6 and a 1, no hits except to myself.

I coud be wrong but the way I and everyone I play with would say if I roll a 6 and a 1 then i take a ound on the gunner but he still scores a hit. its basically that I think is. I am firing two shots the first one goes off fine the second one blows up. If I rolled two ones I would take two wounds. As I would think the model has pulled the trigger twice without realiseing the first one as overheated and this causes thesecond one to overheat also causing the model to take 2 saves.

redkeyboard wrote:

papathrax wrote: you take the wound instead of shooting, so if i roll a 6 and a 1, no hits except to myself.

I coud be wrong but the way I and everyone I play with would say if I roll a 6 and a 1 then i take a ound on the gunner but he still scores a hit. its basically that I think is. I am firing two shots the first one goes off fine the second one blows up. If I rolled two ones I would take two wounds. As I would think the model has pulled the trigger twice without realiseing the first one as overheated and this causes thesecond one to overheat also causing the model to take 2 saves.

You are correct. For every 'one' that is rolled the firer takes a Wound. If you rolled two 'ones', then the firer takes two Wounds. If you rolled one 'one' and a hit, the firer takes one Wound and scores one hit.

If they're all shooting just one shot each (i.e. plasma guns at >12" then you don't need to use different dice at all. Just roll all three, then roll armour saves for any 1s you got and remove that many plasma gun models.
Obviously if you're rapid firing you need to roll two at a time, for each dude.

Joey wrote:If they're all shooting just one shot each (i.e. plasma guns at >12" then you don't need to use different dice at all. Just roll all three, then roll armour saves for any 1s you got and remove that many plasma gun models.
Obviously if you're rapid firing you need to roll two at a time, for each dude.

You technically still need to use different dice as the model that rolls the one must take the wound. This could affect the game as it could leave your unit too far away to be assaulted. Although i've rairly seen this enforced in friendly games and i don't to tournys.

Actually...

I still don't see the proof that you have to remove exactly the same model that took the wound, because the rules for removing casualties state, that you always have to remove an identical model as a casualty for each unsaved wound. That would mean, you would have to roll separately because you have to keep the wounds allocated to the firing and overheating model, but practical it would make no difference, because gets hot does not refer to a different kind of removing casualties (which has nothing to do with wound allocation, just to make that clear... ). You can/must still remove any identical model for each failed save.

My problem is: "gets a wound" or "suffers a wound" does not mean "loses a Wound". It means "a wound is allocated to it". So gets hot only makes you skip a "to wound"-roll and wound allocation. Saves are still made normally as stated in the gets hot rule. And saves are made only in two different ways:

1. If all models are identical (i.e. 3 plasma guns on their own): all in one go -> freedom concerning removal of casualties within the squad
2. If some models are different (i.e. one plasmapistol 2 plasmaguns one combiplasma or as well plasmaguns in a healthy squad): every different group of identical models make their saves separately and casualties have to be taken amongst each group. so if the combiplasma in example 1 rolls two 1s, you cant remove a plasmagun or a plasmapistol. Or if a plasmagun from example 2 rolls one or more 1s you cant remove a guy without plasmagun.

What identical in gaming terms means is of course also explained and does not refer to the gets hot rule.

I would be glad, if you could clarify that. It would be even nicer if that clarification would go beyond "only the MODEL is wounded so shut up", which neither clarifies anything nor does it help. It is just an unnecessary expression of a mixture of insult and ignorance.

Maybe you have some quotes for me how you intend to make your saves or remove casualties different from the standard procedure:

How? (with some reference to the rulebook)
Why? (also with reference)

The same also applies of course to dangerous terrain tests even after the faq which is unfortunately very unprecise.

Thank you very much in advance.

-Nazdreg- wrote:
I still don't see the proof that you have to remove exactly the same model that took the wound, because the rules for removing casualties state, that you always have to remove an identical model as a casualty for each unsaved wound.
What identical in gaming terms means is of course also explained and does not refer to the gets hot rule.

There have been at least a couple of different threads arguing your points and questions. It is true that what is explained as identical in gaming terms does not mention the Gets Hot! rule. It doesn't have to. Quite the opposite. The Gets Hot! rule would have to mention that the wounds from Gets Hot! are (or may be) allocated exactly wounds from shooting. This, in fact, is what is stated in allocating wounds from assault.

-Nazdreg- wrote:
I would be glad, if you could clarify that. It would be even nicer if that clarification would go beyond "only the MODEL is wounded so shut up", which neither clarifies anything nor does it help. It is just an unnecessary expression of a mixture of insult and ignorance.

Okay, here's a clarification. First, look at page 27 of the main rulebook, right hand column under Additional Characteristics. You'll notice the first sentences say, "In addition to its type, a weapon may have some additional characteristics that define the way they work. These are added to the weapon type in the weapon's profile, and include characteristics like 'gets hot!' or 'blast'."

So here we see 2 important notes. First that the additional characteristics are defined in the weapon's profile and second that this is where a 'gets hot!' weapon is specifically mentioned.

Now if you look at page 31 where 'Gets Hot!' weapons are listed, you can see the additional characteristics of the weapon. One of these noted characteristics is that, "For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound...". Nowhere does it say that the wound may be allocated as normal, or that the wound may be allocated to similar models, or to identical models or even that the wound may be allocated the same as wounds from shooting or from enemy units firing. Therefore, as the rule states, "...the firing model..." is the one that suffers the wound.

-Nazdreg- wrote:
Maybe you have some quotes for me how you intend to make your saves or remove casualties different from the standard procedure:

How? (with some reference to the rulebook)
Why? (also with reference)

The saves are the same as the standard procedure, again as per rule. Still in the same rule as above, still the same quote, but at the end of the sentence, "For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound (normal saves apply)." Here the characteristic of the weapon says that normal saves apply, so if the firing model takes a wound, it can apply armor or invulnerable saves as normal.

-Nazdreg- wrote:
The same also applies of course to dangerous terrain tests even after the faq which is unfortunately very unprecise.

I'm sorry, but I don't see what is imprecise about it.

Q: Are Wounds from Dangerous Terrain tests allocated
in the same way as shooting attacks? (p14)
A: No. Each model moving through dangerous terrain
must take a test. Each model that fails takes a Wound.

The FAQ clearly states you don't allocate the wound the same as for shooting attacks. That means that you cannot place the wound on an identical model, because that is how you allocate a wound from a shooting attack.

-Nazdreg- wrote:Thank you very much in advance.

You're welcome, hope this all helps.

OK this is quite about the same in a courteous form. Thank you for your kindness.

There have been at least a couple of different threads arguing your points and questions.

I know about that. I know that the common way to play it is not the way I would do. But the only argument I can see is in my opinion RAI. I do believe GW wanted it the way you describe it. However I can't see a written base for the theory that only the wounded model can take the save.

And as well your argumentation does not fit into my question in my opinion.

What I am talking about is, that the procedure of allocating wounds and the procedure of taking saving throws which leads to removing casualties are two completely different things.

So even if I have a determined wound allocation (as I do if we talk about gets hot, I don't question this with a single word), only just before taking saving throws the groups of identical models become relevant. They are not when you allocate wounds.

So we have the situation: You allocate the wounds as gets hot dictates (only the firing model), after that, normal saves apply. This indicates, that taking saving throws should be made exactly as if the unit were shot at and you would have allocated the wounds to the specific models you now had to allocate them to due to gets hot. (damn sentence, germans like to have them long, I apologise...).

Now if you look at page 31 where 'Gets Hot!' weapons are listed, you can see the additional characteristics of the weapon. One of these noted characteristics is that, "For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound...". Nowhere does it say that the wound may be allocated as normal, or that the wound may be allocated to similar models, or to identical models or even that the wound may be allocated the same as wounds from shooting or from enemy units firing. Therefore, as the rule states, "...the firing model..." is the one that suffers the wound.

I did not question this with a single word. In my given procedure the wounds are in fact taken by the respective firing models.

if the firing model takes a wound, it can apply armor or invulnerable saves as normal.

Now we get into it. At which point in the rulebook can a specific model take a save from a wound allocated to it without the permission to remove another identical model during the normal procedure of taking saving throws? Again the only two ways I see written in the rulebook, are the two I already mentioned. A reference for you: page 20 "Taking saving throws" second paragraph for units consisting of identical models, page 25 "taking saving throws" first and second paragraph for units consisting of different models or "complex units".

Is there a reference on how you take saving throws on individual models that do not stand out in gaming terms?

In addition I have to refer to page 24 "remove casualties" first paragraph, first sentence this is also very important, because it states: For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Looking further down the paragraph again it is described how remove casualties work and that you are free to remove between identical models and that you even have to remove one for each unsaved wound.

@dangerous terrain tests

The FAQ clearly states you don't allocate the wound the same as for shooting attacks. That means that you cannot place the wound on an identical model, because that is how you allocate a wound from a shooting attack.

Again, wound allocation has nothing to do with groups of identical models in my opinion. They start to get relevant during the process of taking saving throws. This is the misunderstanding I try to get out of the way, because it is the only thing that is between us at the moment.

-Nazdreg- wrote: Now we get into it. At which point in the rulebook can a specific model take a save from a wound allocated to it without the permission to remove another identical model during the normal procedure of taking saving throws? Again the only two ways I see written in the rulebook, are the two I already mentioned. A reference for you: page 20 "Taking saving throws" second paragraph for units consisting of identical models, page 25 "taking saving throws" first and second paragraph for units consisting of different models or "complex units".

Is there a reference on how you take saving throws on individual models that do not stand out in gaming terms?

Absloutely, and that is the first paragraph on page 20. "Before he removes any models as casualties, the owning player can test to see whether his troops avoid the damage by making a saving throw."

This is why, if a particular model takes a wound from a dangerous terrain test or from a 1 on gets hot!, the model, that model, is allowed to make a saving throw.

-Nazdreg- wrote:In addition I have to refer to page 24 "remove casualties" first paragraph, first sentence this is also very important, because it states: For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Looking further down the paragraph again it is described how remove casualties work and that you are free to remove between identical models and that you even have to remove one for each unsaved wound.

Ah, yes, but continue on to the second paragraph. it starts with, "Note that any model in the target unit can be hit, wounded and taken off as a casualty, even models that are completely out of sight or out of range of all the firers."

When a model fails a dangerous terrain test, where are "...all the firers."? There aren't any, so you can't use this mechanic to remove casualties, it only applies to wounds that a target unit takes from a firing unit. It is the same for wounds from gets hot! in that the wound is not inflicted by enemy fire, but instead, if you will, by 'friendly fire'. It is the special attribute or characteristic of the gets hot! weapon and rule that causes the wound on "...the firing model".

-Nazdreg- wrote:I still don't see the proof that you have to remove exactly the same model that took the wound, because the rules for removing casualties state, that you always have to remove an identical model as a casualty for each unsaved wound. That would mean, you would have to roll separately because you have to keep the wounds allocated to the firing and overheating model, but practical it would make no difference, because gets hot does not refer to a different kind of removing casualties (which has nothing to do with wound allocation, just to make that clear... ). You can/must still remove any identical model for each failed save.

Yes, this is correct. If A, B, and C rapidfire at X, and A rolls (failing armor saves), you need to remove two plasma gunners.

Nobody plays it this way, so it's pointless to argue.

Q: Are Wounds from Dangerous Terrain tests allocated
in the same way as shooting attacks? (p14)
A: No. Each model moving through dangerous terrain
must take a test. Each model that fails takes a Wound.

This is, as usual, a clear answer from the FAQ that doesn't actually answer the question. Or, more precisely, it answers the question and then contradicts that answer.

GW doesn't know how to play their own game.

The better answer would be: "No. Each model moving through dangerous terrain must take a test. Only models that failed that test may be removed from play or, in the case of multi-wound models, suffer a wound. These wounds must be tracked separately for each multi-wound model."

Actually, I'm going to reverse my long-standing belief.

Get's Hot does cause a wound to a specific model. The wound cannot be allocated as per normal allocation rules. However, during the remove casualties step, you are free to remove a model from any member of that wound group.

So, if two plasma gunners fire 2 shots each. One gunner hits with both, but the other rolls snake eyes, they can both be killed if you fail 2 armor saves.

This is not how I've played it before, but it's how the rules do actually read...

Before he removes any models as casualties, the owning player can test to see whether his troops avoid the damage by making a saving throw.

Where do you imply that? so "testing to see whether my troops avoid the damage by making a saving throw" automatically implies that if I have a wound allocated to a model that model must die and no one else can if also a second wound is allocated to it? Extremely weird idea. And to what do you refer with the word "troops"? It is not connected with any procedure in the RB. And "by making a saving throw" again clearly refers to the two given possible procedures.

Note that any model in the target unit can be hit, wounded and taken off as a casualty, even models that are completely out of sight or out of range of all the firers

This is not the sentence I was refering to. I was refering to the last sentence of the paragraph above. Your quote does also refer to hits and wounds. So it is a more general statement, not as specific as the sentence above. The second part are just examples where you make the implication saving throws are only taken against shooting. That is why Get's hot has to state that normal saves apply because otherwise the wound could not be saved at all.

Also if you question this statement in relationship with dangerous terrain tests, I have to assume that no model at all can be hit, wounded and taken off as a casualty because no model is out of range, because there is no range? This quote is extremely out of context imho.

@biccat and Grakmar:

You got it.

@Grakmar

Very precise summary.

@biccat

Nobody plays it this way, so it's pointless to argue.

Which way do you mean?
unfortunately here in germany the so called GRC (german rules council) created a modelwise approach to taking saving throws using no arguments at all. So here I will have to play it like that (removing only 1 plasmagun even with a double 1). And in dakka as well as in this thread the consensus was the same.

@dangerous terrain:

Exactly that is the answer I would like to see in the FAQ. Precise and clear.

-Nazdreg- wrote:

Nobody plays it this way, so it's pointless to argue.

Which way do you mean?
unfortunately here in germany the so called GRC (german rules council) created a modelwise approach to taking saving throws using no arguments at all. So here I will have to play it like that (removing only 1 plasmagun even with a double 1). And in dakka as well as in this thread the consensus was the same.

Everyone plays by the model-by-model approach. If A rolls , only A dies.

I'm not going to say that the interpretation is wrong, because that's clearly what GW intended (see the FAQ). But it's certainly at odds with a careful and literal reading of the rules.

If I had plasmaguns in my army, I would remove 2 guys (the firing model and another...). If my opponent has plasmaguns, I don't care. Because explaining the small difference is obviously not easy. And I want a game not an argueing festival.

Yep after the FAQ it seems clear what GW intended. But you know GW, they could also write "of course you have to remove a second plasmagunner. Plasma is really dangerous!"...
So you dont really know their intentions. I personally try to stick with clear RAW as long as possible.

I'm glad that you mentioned specific versus general rules. That is exactly what makes both failed dangerous terrain tests and gets hot! wounds to work the way they do.

We know from the Shooting phase section the mechanics for allocating hits and wounds throughout a unit. We also have the mechanics for applying those unsaved wounds. This is the general way to apply hits and wounds and is the same for hits and wounds in both the Shooting and Assault phases. In these, the mechanic is the same, roll to hit, roll to wound, take saving throws and then remove casulaties.

But then we get into specific exceptions. If you roll a '1' with a gets hot weapon, you take a wound. You can make a saving throw "as normal" but it specifically states "the firing model" takes the wound. The upside is that if a model with a gets hot! rolls a pair of '1's, only that firing model is removed, not any others.

It is the same with dangerous terrain tests. A model enters or moves through dangerous terrain, that model takes a test. If it fails the test, it is removed (invulnerable save can be taken though). This is a specific result of a specific situation in a specific rule.

-Nazdreg- wrote: Also if you question this statement in relationship with dangerous terrain tests, I have to assume that no model at all can be hit, wounded and taken off as a casualty because no model is out of range, because there is no range? This quote is extremely out of context imho.

If you move into a piece of dangerous terrain, your range to the terrain is zero, because you are in it. But this has no bearing at all because the terrrain never had to roll to hit, you moving into the terrain forces you to take a test, a pass / fail test, with the consequenes of failing being very clearly spelled out.

time wizard wrote:But then we get into specific exceptions. If you roll a '1' with a gets hot weapon, you take a wound. You can make a saving throw "as normal" but it specifically states "the firing model" takes the wound.

Agreed. The specific model that fired the weapon that got hot takes a wound. However, you do not actually have to remove the model that takes a wound. You can choose to remove any gameplay equivalent model from the unit.

The model that failed the save must "suffer the wound"

Another model suffering the wound, by being remove, contradicts this rule.

@nos

The model that failed the save must "suffer the wound"

And where is that written? In "get's hot" it isn't. Neither in the RB.

Another model suffering the wound, by being removed, contradicts this rule.

so you are removed when you suffer a wound? Bad luck for multiple wound models then... Interesting interpretation though.
Removing another model however does not contradict the rule, it only contradicts the logic of some people as well as the intention of the rule (At least I think it does).
Nevertheless RAW you have to remove a second model if you roll snake eyes. Every unsaved wound causes a removed model amongst those identical if they have 1 Wound each.

And also to you, Nos, we had this discussion earlier:

If you question that the normal rules for taking saving throws apply (which is basically what get's hot says), then give me a page in the rulebook that tells me, what I have to do instead. If the basic rules can't be used for some reason, there has to be an alternative procedure.

At the moment saves are never ever taken by individual models that have identical comrades. This is a damn fact. If not, prove me wrong and give me the page.

My main problem is: There is no RB-procedure about "suffering a wound". So we have to guess a little bit. If saves can be taken after the firing model "suffered a wound", this can only mean, that "suffering a wound" is another word for "a wound is allocated to the firing model". Because you always take saving throws against wounds allocated to specific models btw.

@time wizard

We know from the Shooting phase section the mechanics for allocating hits and wounds throughout a unit. We also have the mechanics for applying those unsaved wounds.

Now you are imprecise. You never allocate hits and allocated wounds are never unsaved wounds. This is the problem, we have to be very true to the exact wording if we want to have this clear.

But then we get into specific exceptions. If you roll a '1' with a gets hot weapon, you take a wound. You can make a saving throw "as normal" but it specifically states "the firing model" takes the wound.

Yes. Exactly. And where is it written how you take saving throws as normal? Page 20 for units consisting of only identical models and page 25 for complex units. Is there a word about a save for an individual model in a group of identical models? No.

It is the same with dangerous terrain tests. A model enters or moves through dangerous terrain, that model takes a test. If it fails the test, it is removed (invulnerable save can be taken though)

Wow poor healthy Trygon with 6 Wounds... A 1 in dangerous terrain and he is removed. Too bad... A little precision would be nice.

-Nazdreg- wrote:@nos

The model that failed the save must "suffer the wound"

And where is that written? In "get's hot" it isn't. Neither in the RB.

P.31 left column 'Gets Hot' section, 3rd sentence- "For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound."

It says it right there. So the firing model must make the save, and if he fails the firing model is removed.

Agree with Timewizard, DR, Nos. The firing model is the only one which can suffer the wound. The model moving through Dangerous Terrain is the only one which can suffer the wound.

For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound.

Yes what does that prove? Nothing. Because "suffers a wound" is not a procedure. So what can I do with this statement? I need things written in the rules what I can do. Otherwise I can do nothing. Permissive ruleset.

Now what am I supposed to do if a model "suffers a wound" (if I can not take saving throws according to the standard procedure of the rules page 20 and 25)? Its that simple question.
"The model takes a save and if failed is removed" - this procedure doesnt exist.

So we have 2 possibilities here:

1. break the get's hot rule by denying that normal saves apply and just do nothing at all or even break the rules a second time by inventing a different procedure and take individual saving throws.
2. take the saving throws with all identical models that rolled a 1 (and are therefore wounded specifically) in one batch, remove one (1 wound-) model of the owners choice per unsaved wound, as the rulebook dictates.

There is just no other method of taking saving throws, I am sorry but "the firing model suffers a wound" has no value at all due to that fact.

Of course the same applies to dangerous terrain tests. There is a hint, where you can see what GW could have intended:

page 34 moving assaulting models: "roll for difficult and dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a dangerous terrain test, start the assault again with the next closest model"

but still there is no clear text about "how" this model is killed. It could be a sergeant or another model existing only once in the squad (and is therefore the only one that can be removed). But it is still perfectly legal if it is a regular, to remove another regular instead.

Why are you removing a healthy model and leaving the wounded model on the table?