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Every BRB release GW has hints as to whats coming hidden in plain sight. In 5th, they pretty much said what they were going to do with the GK and SoB in the section Forces of the Imperium. People didn't want to believe it but both entries bore out to be true.

Now I'm not saying that the BT are definitely getting rolled back but there is a head scratcher in the 41st millineium forces section.
All SM chapters got there own 2-3 page spread except for the Black Templars. They are, instead lumped in with the Salamanders and White Scars at the back of the SM entry.

Would like to know what Dakka's thoughts on this is.

Is it just a horrendous slight to their BT players?

Or do you think it could be more?

What are your thoughts Dakka?

In terms of what Templars have available in their codex at present, it's possible, though still unlikely I think. The money alone from all the marine sales makes it hard to believe that GW would squat a space marine army.

Of course, GW could consider BT their least-useful marine army, and might squat them to score points with the "too many marines" crowd, without actually losing anything sales-wise.

All speculation of course. I have no idea and I do hope that Templars get a good representation on the table regardless of how GW does it. (The 6th ed FAQ has tarnished that hope, though).

I wouldn't be shocked if they do get rolled back into the SM codex to be honest.

If the next SM dex has a page for each main Chapter of Marines that has a detailed description of how their force organization chart changes and rules that apply to certain chapters then I am all for them being absorbed back into the dex. I think that White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Templars, Ultramarines and Dark Angels should all be in one book with pages for each one describing combat doctrines for each and how the chart changes for each one.

My 2 cents

Reivax26 wrote:I wouldn't be shocked if they do get rolled back into the SM codex to be honest.

If the next SM dex has a page for each main Chapter of Marines that has a detailed description of how their force organization chart changes and rules that apply to certain chapters then I am all for them being absorbed back into the dex. I think that White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Templars, Ultramarines and Dark Angels should all be in one book with pages for each one describing combat doctrines for each and how the chart changes for each one.

My 2 cents

Black Templars are too different from normal Marines IMO.
Emperors Champion, vows, the Neophytes/Initiates system.

How would you be able to keep those unique if they're rolled into Codex: Smurfs?

XV8 Crisis Suit wrote:
Black Templars are too different from normal Marines IMO.
Emperors Champion, vows, the Neophytes/Initiates system.

How would you be able to keep those unique if they're rolled into Codex: Smurfs?

Actually, with the new allies setup, they migth not be that unique. Sure there are no mixed squads but it seems that SM with IG or with GK's using Inquisistorial henchmen could be very similar.

Did you ever see the Traits system they had in the 4th edition codex for Marines? That thing had options out the whazoo and it was actually fun to build an army of Marines.

The 3.5 Chaos Codex did the exact thing I described and it made 8 different playable builds incorporating Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Emperors Children.

That's not counting the Black Legion.

Yes GW can do it and it can work rather well just like it did for Chaos back then. The only problem is they would have to have a team of guys who could pull it off and I don't know if Kelly, Ward and Cruddace can pull that off together. The way they each approach a codex is different but you would need a team to pull this off and I think they would clash more than comprimise.

I seriously doubt that that GW will ever roll back a Marine codex. They would drop SoB before that. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see another free space for a non-imperium dex but it just ain't gonna happen. Instead GW will keep diluting the game with ever increasing amounts of op Marine codices until even every xenos armies have to dilute their builds with them.

Good news is that when all armies are Sm's then GW will get as close to true game balance as they ever will(Will still manage to find a way to muck that up, imo)

Bad news is that few will play such a game.

Worse for GW is that when every army uses the same models then people will only need one army's worth of models to play. This = GW out of business. But by that time I will have left GW and be playing lots of FoW or the Pathfinder version of 40K that some company(Cough* mantic**Cough cough*Chapter House) will have produced.

They honestly should. The imperial guard is a more varied fighting force than marines are if you ask me, and they only have one codex.

What I don't understand is why GW would take out imperial guard doctrines and chaos marines legion traits at all. It's like a slap to the face of everyone else when they take that away from one group of players while keeping 6 (!) space marines codecies

BT never needed a Codex of their own to begin with. It's a Second Founding chapter with a minor divergance. On the table they are SM with crosses and crusade squads. Easily included in C:SM which is sure to be larger than ever before even without them. The models should be continued and updated especially the Special Characters, but the BT don't deserve to eclipse the Imperial Fists. I could get onboard with an IF book that had BT in it, but I'll be damned if I know how Gw could swing it and make it more than Yellow Marines with Jesus Marines included.

I miss my deep striking, all infiltrating Guard army. Damn you Cruddace...Damn you to hell!!!

At one time, around 2000-2007/8 Templars were one of the, if not the, most popular SM armies out there. 5th edition really nerfed them ( and DA), but with the recent FAQ upgrades, they were really good.

The new rules kicked them in the jimmy, so I doubt we will see a resurgence of the chapter. I haven't seen a Templars army at a tournament in ages, before 5th you always saw 1 or 2 at a decent sized tournament.

Maybe there will be something special for them, Salamanders and Scars. I don't recall the Scars being at Armageddon, but you never know....

BTs have a completely different playstyle from other codices and their units are alot different.

The only SM codex I could ever see getting rolled into the SM codex would be Dark Angels. Everything is identicle to Vanilla marines except for Ravenwing and Deathwing, which could just be done by having Belial and Sammael as SCs that swap the FoC around(terminators and bikes as troops respectivly, maybe Chapter Tactics be Fearless for Belial and something cool for Sammael)

My thoughts are that BT won't disappear, not squat wise anyway. Maybe newer fluff to being them more in to line with codex marines, I think it'll be a tweaking of the standard codex list in the next codex rather than their own codex. That being said its not impossible for them to get one...

KGatch113 wrote:At one time, around 2000-2007/8 Templars were one of the, if not the, most popular SM armies out there. 5th edition really nerfed them ( and DA), but with the recent FAQ upgrades, they were really good.

The new rules kicked them in the jimmy, so I doubt we will see a resurgence of the chapter. I haven't seen a Templars army at a tournament in ages, before 5th you always saw 1 or 2 at a decent sized tournament.

The new FAQ sucks for BT I agree... no more preferred enemy, the EC can't be the warlord meaning you have to buy a 2nd HQ to take advantage of that... at least they no longer have to do target priority tests!

Only silver lining I see is that they Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch will add some more psychic defense since the vow and Deny the Witch are separate things. The chances of you denying the enemy power that way is 4/9 if I did my math correctly, which is almost as good as having a Mastery 2 Psyker use his hood. Only the EC doesn't need to be within 6".

And as for seeing BT at 5th ed tournies... when I went to Kingdomcon, I saw Dave Fay use his BT to good results. He got Best Overall I believe.

Now, to actually be on topic... no they should not be rolled back into the nilla dex. They too unique to be folded into it.

And before people ask why not IF get their own codex... the Fists follow the Codex Astartes very closely.

XV8 Crisis Suit wrote:Black Templars are too different from normal Marines IMO.
Emperors Champion, vows, the Neophytes/Initiates system.
How would you be able to keep those unique if they're rolled into Codex: Smurfs?

I'd go as far as to say that no Marine Chapter truly needs their own unique Codex. Yes, the existing Codices have various unique special rules, but consider this: How likely is it that these were written up just to differentiate the Codices from one another? I'm fairly sure that many of the "Vanilla" Chapters have a background that would allow for lots of special rules as well, when you think about it. The same holds true for the many different Imperial Guard regiments, who are even more different from one another than the Marine Chapters are. And lo, there once really was a time when the Black Templars had to use the same rules as the other Vanillas, there is nothing to say they couldn't revert back to this state. The fluff wouldn't change just because there is no fancy special rule to go along with it.

However, actually I believe the smartest thing would be to devise some sort of building system that allows people to customize their Marine Chapters and Guard regiments with a number of special rules, and provide a list of these rules for the existing popular Chapters/regiments both as example on how the system works as well as to honour their background. Wasn't there something like this in the 4E Marine 'dex already? And aside from speeding up the release schedule, this would also have the benefitial side-effect of making Chapters other than the current favourites more interesting to play, thus increasing variety on the tables. Theoretically speaking, even the Space Wolves have no more right to their own Codex than, say, the White Scars or the Salamanders or the Mentor Legion, and in the existing Chapters you can't get away more from what it means to be an Astartes than the SW. They all have some unique traits that could be exploited and turned into some special rule if one were inclined to do so. The question is, is this truly necessary, or is it possible to replace full Codices that take months to develop and playtest (possibly leaving individual Chapters without proper updates for one or more editions) with a general "catchall" system that would be capable of dealing with any and all Chapters, offering specially tailored combinations of perks and drawbacks?

However, to the topic at hand I too will say that I "believe it when I see it". Space Marines are too important for GW, and the Black Templars are still an immensely popular Chapter. Not as popular as SW, but still.

Grey Templar wrote:BTs have a completely different playstyle from other codices and their units are alot different.

The only SM codex I could ever see getting rolled into the SM codex would be Dark Angels. Everything is identicle to Vanilla marines except for Ravenwing and Deathwing, which could just be done by having Belial and Sammael as SCs that swap the FoC arund(terminators and bikes as troops respectivly, maybe Chapter Tactics be Fearless for Belial and something cool for Sammael)

Indeed. Dark Angels could have been amalgamated into the regular codex, but, given present rumour, that seems unlikely. In that light, Black Templars would be even less-likely candidates.

Only silver lining I see is that they Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch will add some more psychic defense since the vow and Deny the Witch are separate things. The chances of you denying the enemy power that way is 4/9 if I did my math correctly, which is almost as good as having a Mastery 2 Psyker use his hood. Only the EC doesn't need to be within 6".

So is this Vow pretty decent overall then? It sounds like phychic abilities will be more of a main focus for some armies in 6th, so I was thinking abou taking this over AAC.

Thoughts?

Also, I noticed the lack of mention in the Templats in the BRB as well. We did make a small foot note in the third war for armageddon page tho... very small if you ask me. And were the hell did all these other chapters come from that fought there? I did not know that there were many othere there at all!

I'd love to see an Index Astartes. 400+ pages that covered all SM. As long as it gave the core of every Chapter ang could then bring out special models in WD issues later.

I think it could happen, and I think that DA could get put in it aswell.

I mean if you look at it, they are not that different, and don't have many models specific to them. It's all possible.

AustonT wrote:BT never needed a Codex of their own to begin with. It's a Second Founding chapter with a minor divergance. On the table they are SM with crosses and crusade squads. Easily included in C:SM which is sure to be larger than ever before even without them. The models should be continued and updated especially the Special Characters, but the BT don't deserve to eclipse the Imperial Fists. I could get onboard with an IF book that had BT in it, but I'll be damned if I know how Gw could swing it and make it more than Yellow Marines with Jesus Marines included.

This is pretty simple. Imperial Fists are yellow Ultramarines. The Black Templars are a unique composition army with unique unit types. I mean, sure, they fight like Doritos (crunch all you want, we'll make more), eschew small unit leadership (a hallmark of every successful military ever...) by having no Sergeants, and throw their most junior conscripts under armed and under armored into the fray amongst much more experienced and heavily armored troops who draw heavier volumes of fire than the Neophyte's light armor can repel...

The Black Templars fight extremely stupid, sure. But they are still different enough for a codex book, where the Imperial Fists do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, the important part some people miss is that more codex books mean more money, assuming they move enough units. The reason GW issues more SM codex books is because it makes good business sense.

J99Pwrangler wrote:

Only silver lining I see is that they Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch will add some more psychic defense since the vow and Deny the Witch are separate things. The chances of you denying the enemy power that way is 4/9 if I did my math correctly, which is almost as good as having a Mastery 2 Psyker use his hood. Only the EC doesn't need to be within 6".

So is this Vow pretty decent overall then? It sounds like phychic abilities will be more of a main focus for some armies in 6th, so I was thinking abou taking this over AAC.

Thoughts?

Also, I noticed the lack of mention in the Templats in the BRB as well. We did make a small foot note in the third war for armageddon page tho... very small if you ask me. And were the hell did all these other chapters come from that fought there? I did not know that there were many othere there at all!

50,000 Astartes, so quite a bit of Chapters. Templars still led the overall space battle though, so if this is as bleak as it sounds I'll be shaking my head when I finally get my preordered rulebook...

I think BT would have gotten a big push with Dark Millenium Online as they were the featured Chapter, but with that game going near-vaporware I think they got pushed to the side. They definitely dont deserve the treatment they got though. Dick move on GW's part.

Grey Templar wrote:BTs have a completely different playstyle from other codices and their units are alot different.

The only SM codex I could ever see getting rolled into the SM codex would be Dark Angels. Everything is identicle to Vanilla marines except for Ravenwing and Deathwing, which could just be done by having Belial and Sammael as SCs that swap the FoC around(terminators and bikes as troops respectivly, maybe Chapter Tactics be Fearless for Belial and something cool for Sammael)

I agree, and I play Dark Angels myself. But you can say the exact same thing about Blood Angels. What are they really? Assault Squads as troops. Red Thirst and some unique units like Baal, DC and Furioso. Can easely be done with chapter tactics/traits and special Characters. Same goes for Space Wolves. Sure they are a little different. But come on, Grey Hunters = Tactical Squads with Counter-attack and a CCW. The Templars troops choice is really the only one that is different, but templars does not deserve a book by them selves, no space marine does. Make five books in to one BIG fat book! So that GW can focus on other armys like Tau and eldar etc.

At most we need 2 Marinebooks. One for shooty "strategic" chapters, and one for the more unique "choppy" marines. Make both hardback and give each chapter 2 unique chapter traits and a different FoC. GW could still sell the same models, and nothing else would really need to change.

Except GW would never do something so extreme because it would piss off the bulk of their customer base. Such a codex would cost as much as the main rule book.

For tue hundredth time, it is not in GW's interest to consolidate the space marine codexes. Selling one expensive book that every one will whine about still doesn't match selling several books individually.

J99Pwrangler wrote:Also, I noticed the lack of mention in the Templats in the BRB as well. We did make a small foot note in the third war for armageddon page tho... very small if you ask me. And were the hell did all these other chapters come from that fought there? I did not know that there were many othere there at all!

White Dwarf had a lot of material about this conflict, stretched over several issues as long as the campaign was still going on.

There's also this backup of the official website: http://web.archive.org/web/20070202084629/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/imp_forces.html
Includes some fluff about the Black Templars, amongst others. Just in case you may find it interesting.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:For tue hundredth time, it is not in GW's interest to consolidate the space marine codexes. Selling one expensive book that every one will whine about still doesn't match selling several books individually.

It would if now everyone who gets the digital copy can purchase future updates that add new units, or if they bought the printed copy, they'll need to get the new WD. It would be like DLC for 40k.

Plus, with new Allies matrix, everyone will be more interested in what other chapters have. There had been a paradigm shift in 6e and old wisdom does not apply.

I doubt it'll happen, not because BT's are exactly super unique, but because GW has said they are going to continue to support all the current codex armies as they are, and because they've had too long to build momentum.

Could they be fit back in? Without a doubt, simply allow tacs and scouts to mix, up the squad size, swap Combat Tactics for some silly rule like "Crusaders" or whatever, add in a couple of their characters and the emperor's champion...and done! It could all be fit on one page in terms of rules quite easily.

Grey Templar wrote:Except GW would never do something so extreme because it would piss off the bulk of their customer base. Such a codex would cost as much as the main rule book.

Not really, you'd need to add maybe 50 pages to it? Perhaps a dozen are actually rules covering the various armies that have their own rules now and the rest fluff/characters? Other games, like Flames of War, put out 300pg hardcover rulebooks for just a smidge over the cost of a ~140pg softcover GW codex now. I can get a hardcover flames of war book detailing army lists for just about every imagineable Soviet and Wehrmacht ground force, for about $8 more than the Space Marine codex, which, should GW's price rises hold, will be identical within 3 or 4 years.

Any mentions of the venerable iron Hands in the new BRB ; or after being ignored like the Lepper in the corner, are we being written out of the canon? I can feel the fate of the squats coming.

I would say that this would be bad and would not happen. They are not a Codex Astartes Chapter, why would they get lumped into the MOST diligent followers of Codex Astartes. The pure and simple fact that they have a fan base that wants to play BT and not SM makes me feel like they would not for money purposes as well.