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Does the Tau's targetting array wargear make snap shots at BS2?

Arguments Against:
Rulebook specifically states its Mulitipliers then additons, then absolutes
so BS3+1=4 snap-fire = 1

Arguments For:
Snap fire is a special type of shooting that is resolved at BS 1
therefore targetting arrays may add to this.

Sadly...

p2

You apply multipliers, then add or subtract, then apply set values.

As much as I want my broadsides to be able to deal with enemy fliers a little better, they can't being set at BS 1.

Yeah, this is completely cut and dry. The set value of the snap shot (BS1) is applied after any modifiers to BS are considered.

My question is on Marker lights: How do they function for overwatch? You can't reduce the LD for pinning as you cannot force a fall back, or cause pinning. The FAQ says that you can't use it to fire a Seeker missile, although it allows a Seeker missile to hit a flier on 5+. Cover will tend to not be a problem, so the only real thing it can do is add to the BS which is then negated back to a 1. Why bother using it/allowing it to fire?

yakface wrote:
Yeah, this is completely cut and dry. The set value of the snap shot (BS1) is applied after any modifiers to BS are considered.

I'm not so sure.

Pg 7 under Basic versus Advanced Rules. "Basic rules apply to all models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale, found between pages 10 and 31."

Snap Shot is in this section on pg 14 so are covered under basic rules.

"Advanced rules Apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon(such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenrate damaged flesh), because they are different to their fellows(such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models(a Bike, a Swarm or even a Tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in there relevant Warhammer 40K codex.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contadicting basic rules.

Last line says rules printed in the codex always takes precedence.


Now combine this with the Snap-fire rule using the dreaded "counts as BS 1" terminology as apposed to saying "are at a fixed value of BS 1 when Snap shooting".

This brings the question of whether the Snap Shot is a Fixed value.


Edit to add: They might could have done a better job of indicating when something is a fixed value.)

megatrons2nd wrote:My question is on Marker lights: How do they function for overwatch? You can't reduce the LD for pinning as you cannot force a fall back, or cause pinning. The FAQ says that you can't use it to fire a Seeker missile, although it allows a Seeker missile to hit a flier on 5+. Cover will tend to not be a problem, so the only real thing it can do is add to the BS which is then negated back to a 1. Why bother using it/allowing it to fire?

Because people would invariably ask if they didn't asnwer it?

The FAQ simply says that you cannot use markerlight hits that are generated by Overwatch to fire a Seeker Missile, end of story. They didn't need to answer the same question about BS or Pinning modification because those can't be used by the same unit getting the markerlight him anyway, and even if the unit does somehow have a networked markerlight, it still isn't going to benefit them because as has been pointed out Overwatch fire is always a fixed BS1 and cannot cause pinning...although the cover stripping ability and the ability to ignore night fighting could both theoretically affect overwatch shots.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Avatar wrote:

yakface wrote:
Yeah, this is completely cut and dry. The set value of the snap shot (BS1) is applied after any modifiers to BS are considered.

I'm not so sure.

Pg 7 under Basic versus Advanced Rules. "Basic rules apply to all models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale, found between pages 10 and 31."

Snap Shot is in this section on pg 14 so are covered under basic rules.

"Advanced rules Apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon(such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenrate damaged flesh), because they are different to their fellows(such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models(a Bike, a Swarm or even a Tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in there relevant Warhammer 40K codex.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contadicting basic rules.

Last line says rules printed in the codex always takes precedence.


Now combine this with the Snap-fire rule using the dreaded "counts as BS 1" terminology as apposed to saying "are at a fixed value of BS 1 when Snap shooting".

This brings the question of whether the Snap Shot is a Fixed value.


Edit to add: They might could have done a better job of indicating when something is a fixed value.)

Le sigh...the first one of many, many of these arguments to come.

Look the basic vs. advanced rules simply explain how you have core rules which are then overriden by more explicit rules. For example, models normally move 6", but then the advanced rules for Jump Infantry, for example, allows them to move more than that, so the advanced rule essentilaly replaces the basic rule in that instance.

That doesn't mean that in all cases you ignore the rules laid out in the basic section of the rulebook anytime you encounter any special rule found elsewhere. If the basic rules explain how you resolve modifiers vs. fixed values, then those are the rules you use because those are the only rules to guide us in such situations.

The fixed value rules are written precisely to cover this type of interaction. If you have a situation where you have modifiers and you have a rule which sets a fixed value, the fixed value wins out...that's precisely what the rule is there to explain.

Unless the FAQ changed Markerlights, they are lost at the end of the Shooting phase, so you could not use them for Overwatch anyway.

Happyjew wrote:Unless the FAQ changed Markerlights, they are lost at the end of the Shooting phase, so you could not use them for Overwatch anyway.

You could to fire a seeker missile and/or if the unit had networked markerlights. The FAQ question is asking if a unit firing a markerlight that scores a hit can then launch a seeker missile with it, and the answer to that is no.

yakface wrote:
The fixed value rules are written precisely to cover this type of interaction. If you have a situation where you have modifiers and you have a rule which sets a fixed value, the fixed value wins out...that's precisely what the rule is there to explain.

Yes, but where does it indicate that this is a fixed value. Snap Shot modifies to a "counts as BS1" without noting that this is a fixed value. If they have a rule about fixed value modifiers then they should note when something is a fixed value. They did not do such in this case.

They could have written "All Snap shots are resolved at a fixed value of BS1". They did not. By the wording in the Multiple modifiers rule we are left guessing the RAI when they are not clear.

You see, with Power fistes they say that they are unwieldly. You check the Unwieldly USR and it says that they Strike at Innitiative step 1. Very cut and dry. No wording about "counts as Initiative 1".

Captain Avatar wrote:

yakface wrote:
The fixed value rules are written precisely to cover this type of interaction. If you have a situation where you have modifiers and you have a rule which sets a fixed value, the fixed value wins out...that's precisely what the rule is there to explain.

Yes, but where does it indicate that this is a fixed value. Snap Shot modifies to a "counts as BS1" without noting that this is a fixed value. If they have a rule about fixed value modifiers then they should note when something is a fixed value. They did not do such in this case.

They could have written "All Snap shots are resolved at a fixed value of BS1". They did not. By the wording in the Multiple modifiers rule we are left guessing the RAI when they are not clear.

You see, with Power fistes they say that they are unwieldly. You check the Unwieldly USR and it says that they Strike at Initiative step 1. Very cut and dry. No wording about "counts as Initiative 1".

As explained on page 2 (in modifiers) there are four ways that a characteristic value can be modified: either by something that adds to the value, something that subtracts from the value, something that multiplies (or doubles) the value and finally something that just sets the value.

Anything and everything that lists a specific characteristic value is this latter thing, it is setting the value of the characteristic and the rules are INCREDIBLY clear that this is done after any of the other types of modifiers.

They don't need to write 'fixed value' next to anything because they wrote it in the rules very clearly on page 2 that anytime a rule has a listed characteristic value this is applied after other types of modifiers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

And actually now that I think about it, even if snap firing 'counting as' being BS1 was somehow a quasi-'not actually changing the BS of the model' rule (which I don't believe) that still would have the same effect here.

The Markerlight would modify the model's BS and the Snap Fire rule would still mean the model would count as firing at BS1 (so the markerlight modifications would be meaningless).

So no matter which way you want to look at it, no special rule is going to modify the BS1 status of snap fire unless it specifically says that it affects Snap Fire shots.

Or maybe they could FA the Markerlight to be +1 to the to hit roll and end the pointless issue.

By the way, I see firing a markerlight as a pointless roll at the moment.