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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

Feel free to post how and why you voted, but please DO NOT ENGAGE OTHERS IN DISCUSSIONS/ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THE RULES SAY. Please create a separate thread if you feel the urge to have this kind of discussion.



The rules for 'Canoptek Wraith Whip Coils' say (Necron Codex, pg 44): "Whilst any enemy model is in base contact with a model with whip coils they count their Initiative value as 1, regardless of their actual Initiative."


The rules for 'Who Can Fight' in a close combat say (rulebook, pg 23): "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached."





QUESTION: How would you/do you play a situation where a model's Initiative gets altered mid-combat so that his Initiative Step has already passed by without him attacking?


Example:
Necron Wraiths, some of which have Whip Coils, charge a unit of Space Marines led by a Captain. The Captain is in base contact with a Wraith that has Whip Coils, so his Initiative counts as being lowered to 1. However, at Initiative Step 4, his fellow marines that are not in base contact with Whip Coil armed Wraiths strike back and happen to slay the Wraith that was in contact with the Captain. Therefore, the Captain's Initiative value returns to his normal I5, which happens to be an Initiative step that has already passed by! So how would you/do you play this?



OPTION A. I play that the model would still get to swing at the I1 step, even though he is technically back to being I5.


OPTION B. Too bad, the Captain missed his Initiative step and therefore doesn't get to make any attacks this round of combat.


OPTION C. I would let the Captain immediately go back and make his attacks out of sequence (i.e. before we start on the next Initiative step).


OPTION D. I would let the Captain go ahead and attack at whatever the next Initiative step is.


OPTION E. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

I voted Option B by mistake but meant Option A. The rules says to go in numerical order and it's just simpler to stick to that even though the value has changed. It states to go by initiative steps and since he missed his step he'll just have to go in the last step. That's just how I see it.

I'd play RAW, he doesn't get to attack.

I voted Option A.

Option A. His buddies rush to his rescue, but it still takes him 'till I1 to get free of the coils and swing.

RAW doesn't work with 40k. They don't write them well enough. This makes the most sense when considering both the rules as they are written and the intention... not to mention fairness and common sense.

I really dont care. But I think he should get his attacks. Lowering your init =/= no attacks. I would even let the cron player choose between Capt going at current Init or staying at 1. Retroactive doesn't seem real fair either. I voted D, but anything but no attacks and retroactive seem fine.

If when it gets to intiative step 1 and he isn't I1 then how does he get to attack, he effectively gets no attacks

Assuming each step

I5 - no model is I5 nothing happens
I4 - marines attack (kill model in b2b with coil)
I3- skipped
I2- wraiths that can attack
I1- no model is I1

that is playing it as per the rules and in that the captain takes no part in it

Going with D, for now. As what appears to be the best available kludge. The rule is borked.

If he stays at I1, the Necrons are benefitting from the dead model's wargear, even after he's dead.

Better that the model act on the next I step, so he has a chance to swing before the Wraiths, as he shouldn't still be hindered by the coils.

If he piles into another whip, okay; suspend his attacks until I1. I don't think there's anything especially broken about the prospect of possibly piling in multiple times anyway. No one will let you attack multiple times.

B and C seem silly to me. Here's why I voted A over D, using the provided example:

I5: No models strike (Captain in B2B with a Coil)
I4: Captain's Battle-Brothers strike, kill Wraith in B2B with Captain
I3: The Captain, now striking at I3, piles in....next to another Wraith with a Whip Coil. The game breaks.

In option D, at I3 the captain would seem to be getting a free pile in move (remember, he gets to pile in at I1 as he's in B2B with a coil, AND the end of combat) which I think is silly. Furthermore, since he's already started to make his pile-in move (and therefore begun his assault in the Initiative step) you could argue that he gets to strike at both I1 and I3 (it's a silly argument, but you could make it).

Option A is the logical one, why punish someone because their squad mates killed the enemy?

I originally thought A, but voted D. It does seem to make more sense. The Lash coils are no longer slowing him down...

This is not an issue with Nid Lash Whips, since they say the effect (I1) lasts until the end of the phase.

Also, I am not concerned with him potentially getting two pile-ins, since: there is no rule that forbids that, it kind of makes sense to me, and I don't see it being much of an advantage.

I voted C because I think it is the most reasonable, as a note, I also believe there is some RAW support for this since it says.

"work your way through the initiative values of the models engaged in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest."

While it does go on to clarify what this will usually mean is 10 steps, I feel that the captain is the highest initiative step once he is no longer Whip Coil'd and thus, you do his initiative step at that point, I obviously wouldn't let other Initiative 5 models get to attack a second time though.

I think B for now is RAW, but not intended. This same question's interpretation also directly asks "How many times can a model swing in close combat."

i5 captain charges into wraiths. He charges into a non-whip coil model. He swings at i5.

At I2, the wraiths pile into the captain, making him I1 with the whip coils. They swing but dont kill him.

At I1, the captain model swings a second time, as he was both i5 and i1 this turn.

While whip coils are one way to change initiative, there may be some others. As I hope I pointed out, solution B sometimes lets the captain not swing at all, and sometimes swing 2 times. Thus regardless of the ruling anyone decides to use, it needs to account for the possibility of more and less attacks as a result.

With that said, I choose to play by B, NOT because it is RAW (which I also believe) but because model placement and order of operations let the captain attack 0, 1, or 2 times, thus overall it seems to equal out. There seem to be a lot of situations in 5th where order of operations and model placement has very drastic results on the outcome of an event, so I chalk this one up to yet another one of those.

warboss_Russ! wrote:Option A. His buddies rush to his rescue, but it still takes him 'till I1 to get free of the coils and swing.

RAW doesn't work with 40k. They don't write them well enough. This makes the most sense when considering both the rules as they are written and the intention... not to mention fairness and common sense.

This is why I voted A.

They want a more cinematic feel to the game, and that is confirmed by the forging a narrative sections. This is the perfect time for that to come into effect.

Here is how it plays out in my head:

Captain Nexus: Men follow my lead, kill those vile Necrons, <Screams> For the emperor, Charge!

<Captain Nexus and his men charge headlong into the Necrons firing up their chainswords and letting loose a torrent of fire from their bolt pistols>

The captain gets tangled in the coiled machine like tentacles that spring out to entangle him just before he strikes, and the captain works to free himself of the Xenos tech.

Brother Jacen: The captain is tangled up, let us kill that tentacled abomination and free him!

The marines swing their chainswords in a mighty arc freeing the captain and killing the machine like thing that was restricting his movements. Suddenly the machines strike at the marines wounding two of them but leaving the others unscathed.

Finally the captain, free of his restraints and ready to punish the vile Xenos, leaps toward the remaining machines with his power sword that is humming with a crackling electric field and slices the two remaining machines in twain with one mighty cleaving attack!

The Captain and his battle brothers return to task looking for more vile Xenos to dispatch.

If you vote option A, what about in the situation where the captain is i5, swings, and a necron whip piles into him making him i1 when they go at init 2? If you vote A, does the captain get to swing 2 times or still only once, effectively ignoring the new i1 stat since he swung already?

DevianID wrote:If you vote option A, what about in the situation where the captain is i5, swings, and a necron whip piles into him making him i1 when they go at init 2? If you vote A, does the captain get to swing 2 times or still only once, effectively ignoring the new i1 stat since he swung already?

Same thing, it is clearly intended for models to only get one set of attacks weather that is at I5 or at I1, you have to go with the RAI on that.

If only they included that initiative can't change once the initial order was determined... In the hope GW will eventually FAQ just this, I chose option A.

I say B. Tough noogies, he lost his attack phase because GW can't write unambiguously or cover all the bases.

I voted A, but only because he would strike at I1, not because he goes back to I5. I would imagine the whip coils cling to him until the wraith fails its RP at the end of the phase and dies.

UndeadRobotSkeleton wrote:I voted A, but only because he would strike at I1, not because he goes back to I5. I would imagine the whip coils cling to him until the wraith fails its RP at the end of the phase and dies.

Wraiths don't even have Reanimation Protocols, not that having it would change anything in this scenario...

I think Option B is RAW.

But Option A is the best/fairest solution for both players

I tend to think of those effects like grenades. If I kill the psychotrope carrying techmarine even after his greandes go off, I don't undo the results of it or suddenly get my 1 toughness back if the rad grenade carrying guy died.

Option B. He can't make strikes at I1 if he has I5, plain and simple.

Just to point out: This is actually really easy for the Necron player to achieve because he gets to choose which models to remove as casualties first (from those that are in base contact)...so they could definitely use this loophole as a real tactic to effectively deny a powerful model its attacks.

yakface wrote:
Just to point out: This is actually really easy for the Necron player to achieve because he gets to choose which models to remove as casualties first (from those that are in base contact)...so they could definitely use this loophole as a real tactic to effectively deny a powerful model its attacks.

Yeah, which is why I expect it to be errata'd at some point that they remain at I1 until the end of combat. Until then RAW seems pretty clear on the matter.

yakface wrote:

UndeadRobotSkeleton wrote:I voted A, but only because he would strike at I1, not because he goes back to I5. I would imagine the whip coils cling to him until the wraith fails its RP at the end of the phase and dies.

Wraiths don't even have Reanimation Protocols, not that having it would change anything in this scenario...

Bah, I was thinking of the old dex. I just assumed they kept it. I would still play it as A though. I typically play stuff like this as RAI, or whatever makes the most sense.

As fluff is an unreliable point of thought on this forum section I am hesitant to post my reason for voting the way I did. That being said, I would imagine he would have his I reduced to 1, the should the wraith be slain he would strike at the current (I) step. This would represent the fact that the whip coils bound him for that split second that he was faster than his squad mates but when the wraith was slain we stuck along with the rest of his squad after escaping the entagling effects of the coils.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:As fluff is an unreliable point of thought on this forum section I am hesitant to post my reason for voting the way I did. That being said, I would imagine he would have his I reduced to 1, the should the wraith be slain he would strike at the current (I) step. This would represent the fact that the whip coils bound him for that split second that he was faster than his squad mates but when the wraith was slain we stuck along with the rest of his squad after escaping the entagling effects of the coils.

This is a poll about how you would choose to play the situation. You can choose to play that way for absolutely any reason under the sun. This is not a dissection of the actual rules text. So please feel free to share your opinions.

I voted option A, as it was easiest to reconcile with fluff and sportsmanship.

D

In my opinion at any initiative step N, all models with initiative N or higher, that have not attacked yet, may attack.

Which is actually how Magic: The Gathering handles this situation (Gaining first strike after first strike attacks have been resolved).