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In my quest to avoid the Fortuned Vect Doom Bomb I present the following argument

Fortune says:

"This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the start of the next Eldar turn."

Rulesbook says:

In some sitautions, the rules allow you to pick up and re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like - pick up the dice you wish to re-roll and roll it again. The second roll counts, even if it is worse than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of then source of the re-roll."

Shadowfiled says:
ermm...don't have the text with me, but something like 2+ invulnerable save until one is failed.

So in order for a fortuned Vect to get a re-roll he has to fail a save first (as dictated by Fortune) and if he fails a save poof goes the shadowfield. So Vect takes the reroll with his normal armor.

No. When you re-roll the die, the 2nd roll counts and overrides the first roll. So you roll a 1, but you re-roll due to fortune and get a 2. The 2 becomes the result, thereby keeping the Shadowfield active.

here is a funny one too, if he fails a save and passes it off to another model via LOS... does the field stay?

DELETED BECAUSE I NEED MORE COFFEE.

No, you've failed the save, so the field is gone. LOS just transfers the wound to another model

Formosa wrote:here is a funny one too, if he fails a save and passes it off to another model via LOS... does the field stay?

It would be funny if you could pass off the failed save.

Formosa wrote:here is a funny one too, if he fails a save and passes it off to another model via LOS... does the field stay?

Good question. I would say it does, since it's meant to represent the attack hitting the LOS target, but the rules might word it so it doesn't.

Not funny haha, though

Formosa wrote:here is a funny one too, if he fails a save and passes it off to another model via LOS... does the field stay?

You cannot LOS in that instance, you have to do it when the wound is allocated to you.

Formosa wrote:here is a funny one too, if he fails a save and passes it off to another model via LOS... does the field stay?

The only way to do a LOS after a failed save is if everyone in the unit has the same save.
I can't think of a situation that this is possible.

The shadowfield remains. If you mastercraft a plasma gun and reroll the gets hot miss you don't still get burned. Rerolls override.

Red Corsair wrote:The shadowfield remains. If you mastercraft a plasma gun and reroll the gets hot miss you don't still get burned. Rerolls override.

It says this for "gets hot!" but Fortune specifically states that you have to fail a save to get a re-roll. In addition the rules just state that the second roll "counts" which is a long fething way from saying it over-rides.

The initial roll *has* to be disregarded. If not then boss poles would do nothing - you fail a morale check and, even though you then pass you would still fall back.

The shadowfield stays up, because the initial failure never happened, once you reroll

Wait wait wait. Can a farseer even cast fortune on a model with a shadow field? The text for fortune says it has to target am eldar model. I don't think eldar and dark eldar are the same thing, seeing as how they have separate codexes and all.

Nate668 wrote:Wait wait wait. Can a farseer even cast fortune on a model with a shadow field? The text for fortune says it has to target am eldar model. I don't think eldar and dark eldar are the same thing, seeing as how they have separate codexes and all.

The farseer is in an Eldar unit. The farseer casts Fortune. The Archon is attached to that unit. The Archon benefits.

Target an Eldar unit, e.g. harlies, with an IC attached via battle brother allowance. By the rules on an IC joining the IC is a member of that unit. So casting the power is perfectly fine.

While I will grant you that it isn't stated outright, the clear implication of the wording in the rule on re-rolls is that the first roll *doesn't* count. I certainly wouldn't let anyone get away with trying to pull a move like that.

tgjensen wrote:While I will grant you that it isn't stated outright, the clear implication of the wording in the rule on re-rolls is that the first roll *doesn't* count. I certainly wouldn't let anyone get away with trying to pull a move like that.

Because using allied rules to get a 2+ re-rollable invulnerable is an indication that you want a friendly game?

Again: your intepretation is absurd, because it leads to rerolls having no function.

THe reroll explicitly requires that the first roll play no further part in the game, otherwise it has no function.

Fortune explicity states that you have to fail a save to get a reroll. It's the interaction between rerolling a failed save and the rule for shadowfields that is problem.

But then you have to argue that the first roll counts. The Twin-Linked special rule specifically denies this: "Twin-linked weapons don't get more shots than normal ones, but they give you a better chance of hitting with them." The first roll DOESN'T count.

Furthermore, quoting the same rule on twin-linked blast weapons: "If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a twin-linked Blast or Large blast weapon." Going by your logic, this effectively leads to two shots with a blast weapon, since a Scatter roll can still hit the target. Would you really accept that from your IG opponent?

And yes, a re-rollable Shadowfield can be deployed in a friendly game. My opponent did than when we were figuring out the new rules. He promptly rolled two ones in a challenge against my Warboss, and we had a lot of laughs over that. Well, I did.

Thats an interesting point........

Fortune requires you to FAIL a save in order to get the re-roll (well yeah thats the POINT of a re-roll)

Shadow field states that once a Shadow Field save is FAILD the field disapates. Hmmm.....

Perhaps you can re-roll it, still get the 2++ but after that it still disapates because technically you did FAIL the save!

Now that Psycic hoods no longer nullify Psycic powers that dont affect your models (ie whitch fire etc) is there any way to stop the Warlock or whom ever from getting fortune off baring a bad roll on his/her part??

If the second roll is over-riding the first roll, the results of the first roll are no longer valid. The roll is not finished until the re-roll is completely. Therefore, the save is not failed.

olympia wrote:Fortune explicity states that you have to fail a save to get a reroll. It's the interaction between rerolling a failed save and the rule for shadowfields that is problem.

And a boss pole "explicitly" requires you to have failed a morale check in order to inflict a wound and get a reroll. And?

Your "method" of claiming the first result can have an effect on the game *makes rerolls functionally useless*

There is NO problem whatsoever.

htj wrote:If the second roll is over-riding the first roll, the results of the first roll are no longer valid. The roll is not finished until the re-roll is completely. Therefore, the save is not failed.

There's no over-riding. It doesn't say that anywhere. What Fortune does state, explicitly, is that you have to fail a save to get a re-roll from that power.

the requirement to fail the save means that you do not succeed at rolling and then can reroll. It is there to prevent you from rerolling passed saves, for whatever reason.

The model did not actually fail its save because if it did it would take a wound, and fortune does say the model can try to save against an unsaved wound.

it is worded that if you do not pass the armor test you can reroll and apply that result instead of the first, because if you apply the first result at all the model would suffer a wound which it does not. Therefore the save is not failed if the model rerolls successfully.

Twin-Linked:

you must re-roll the dice To Hit if you miss.

If you take the result of the first roll and apply it, then re-roll and take the result and apply it you have the potential to fire twice the shots you're allowed to.

The first result must be discarded, which means that the Shadow Field stays intact.

The wording for shadowfield states that if you fail a save its gone. The wording for Fortune requires you to fail a save to get a reroll. I wish people would engage with this rather than grasping onto a boss pole.

olympia wrote:

htj wrote:If the second roll is over-riding the first roll, the results of the first roll are no longer valid. The roll is not finished until the re-roll is completely. Therefore, the save is not failed.

There's no over-riding. It doesn't say that anywhere. What Fortune does state, explicitly, is that you have to fail a save to get a re-roll from that power.

You must accept the second result, so the first doesn't apply any more. That says overide to me. If the second result is the one you must accept, then the first is de facto discarded. Whilst I can see what you're getting at, I really feel that you're misinterpreting the rule based on sloppy wording.

olympia wrote:The wording for shadowfield states that if you fail a save its gone. The wording for Fortune requires you to fail a save to get a reroll. I wish people would engage with this rather than grasping onto a boss pole.

Twin linked is exactly the same. You must miss to get the re-roll.

Are you saying you get more shots with a Twin Linked gun?

Twin-linkedweapons don't get more shots than normal ones, but they give you a better chance of hitting with them.

The re-roll must discard the first result. There's no other way to interpret the rules sanely.

if you fail and are allowed a reroll, and the reroll passes the save could not have failed because the model did not suffer an unsaved wound.