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Allied Space Wolves do they get 1 HQ or 2? Normally Wolves can get 4 HQs if not allied.

You get one FOC slot. SW can fit 2 HQ units in one slot.

Do the math.

Agreed. I see no problem with this. Its not like there arent other 'dexs that don't get similar work arounds (BT for example).

As long as the Leaders of the Pack rule still applies, then I would suppose so (and this means that people allying with SW will constantly have to be reminded that their HQs have to be equipped differently...).

Andilus Greatsword wrote:As long as the Leaders of the Pack rule still applies, then I would suppose so (and this means that people allying with SW will constantly have to be reminded that their HQs have to be equipped differently...).

It does still apply. No taking two rune priests that are equipped the same. Best off taking a wolf lord on thunderwolf and a rune priest. Add a squad of grey hunters and now you have about 500 points gone. Equip the other however many points from the other army. Wait ... maybe it's better to just ally something else with Space wolves ...

I would argue that raw you get 1. The leaders of the pack rule states that in a space wolf army each Hq slot counts as 2. A blood angles army with an allied detachment of space wolves is not a space wolf army.

Breng77 wrote:I would argue that raw you get 1. The leaders of the pack rule states that in a space wolf army each Hq slot counts as 2. A blood angles army with an allied detachment of space wolves is not a space wolf army.

Disagree. The codex says that for each HQ slot in the force org. chart, the space wolves may take two HQ selections. If you argue that people who take SW's for allies can only have one SW HQ choice per HQ slot on the allies FOC because the army is not now a "space wolves army", then how does that work when space wolves then take allies?

Recall that all of the current codecies were written prior to allies being allowed, so there would never be any issue with the wording "space wolf army".

Being written last edition does not change raw. An allied detachment is not a space wolf army. The wolf FAQ does not address this so there is no indication that other armies should be able to break foc rules by allying space wolves.

Grugknuckle wrote:

Breng77 wrote:I would argue that raw you get 1. The leaders of the pack rule states that in a space wolf army each Hq slot counts as 2. A blood angles army with an allied detachment of space wolves is not a space wolf army.

Disagree. The codex says that for each HQ slot in the force org. chart, the space wolves may take two HQ selections. If you argue that people who take SW's for allies can only have one SW HQ choice per HQ slot on the allies FOC because the army is not now a "space wolves army", then how does that work when space wolves then take allies?

Recall that all of the current codecies were written prior to allies being allowed, so there would never be any issue with the wording "space wolf army".

You have misquoted the codex again. The leaders of the pack section states "in a space wolf army" RAW 1 hq for allies.

Welcome to the muddy times of a rules crossover, like at the start of 5th, 4th and that god awful 3.5 update, we have to suffer the vageries of waiting for faq's and new codices. It's nothing new, RAW is the way to play in tournaments but friendly games are still open to wild lists and crazy things. So if you want 2 rune priests as allies then feel free but it is not RAW.

EDIT : (Internet tone of voice and smart ass comment removed)

There is no place in the BRB that says what a "Space Wolves Army" is. Or an "Imperial Guard Army" or a "Necrons Army" etc. I am therefore free to interpret the meaning of "Space Wolves Army" to be any army that has at least one unit from the Space Wolves Codex.

You have an Army list. In that list, you take units from one codex of your choice. Optionally, you may take a second, more limited FOC. The units in this FOC are labelled allies and the units in it may be taken from a different codex subject to the allies chart.

Sorry I don't seem to understand your first question. Any army that has space wolves as allies is not a space wolf army. It is an X army with space wolf allies.
Could you repeat it if my answer is insufficient?
A space wolves army is an army not an allied detachment. If Leaders of the pack said space wolves force the you would have a leg to stand on.

YMDC is about the theory of the rules not how you would play it, these may be very different things.
There is also no need to get narky cos I called you on an error.

I edited that post for clarity. (read above)

But here is the jist.

Any army that has at least one unit from Codex : Space Wolves is a Space Wolves Army.

Who is the warlord that gets the bonus's? (brb not to hand, can't remember the specific term)
If that commander is not a space wolf then it is not a SW army.

liturgies of blood wrote:
Any army that has space wolves as allies is not a space wolf army. It is an X army with space wolf allies.

No. It is not an X army with space wolf allies. It is just an army with space wolf allies.


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liturgies of blood wrote:Who is the warlord that gets the bonus's? (brb not to hand, can't remember the specific term)
If that commander is not a space wolf then it is not a SW army.

Show me where it says that it is not a space wolf army.

If it is not in the rulebook, then we fall back to basic english.
I will check the rulebook when I get it back in my hands but for now I will go with english and logic.

An army that is lead by IG, comprises mostly IG, has a warlord that is IG that may have a few SW hanging around is an IG army.

liturgies of blood wrote:If it is not in the rulebook, then we fall back to basic english.
I will check the rulebook when I get it back in my hands but for now I will go with english and logic.

An army that is lead by IG, comprises mostly IG, has a warlord that is IG that may have a few SW hanging around is an IG army.

That is one interpretation. Here is another. Any army that has a unit from codex X is an "X army". Since the addition of the rules for allies are barely a month old, there hasn't been enough time to establish a convention for defining what constitutes a "Space Wolf Army". So despite the clear meaning for 5th Edition, I think it's too early to split hairs on this just to satisfy some of the nerf-hunters on this forum.

In particular, the term "X army" is not defined in the RAW and so we have to revert to RAI determine the actual ruling. RAW and RAI clearly intend for people to be able to take units from two different codecies. I say, if you're going to let people use a codex, then let them have the perks from that codex. Let's not say, "unless it's codex space wolves, and then you can only take two HQ choices per slot if you're NOT an ally". Too complicated and too much to remember.

EDIT : spelling mistake.

Warlord comes from primary force, and is HQ (might actually say character, which could cause some funny warlord choices) with highest Ld.

liturgies of blood wrote:If it is not in the rulebook, then we fall back to basic english.
I will check the rulebook when I get it back in my hands but for now I will go with english and logic.

An army that is lead by IG, comprises mostly IG, has a warlord that is IG that may have a few SW hanging around is an IG army.

The fallback to basic English excuse is a copout when you have no rules support.

You have zero rules support defining what constitutes an army and what does not. As any one single unit picked from any codex is picked from that codex's ARMY list, it stands to reason that an allied detachment, because it consists of units picked from an ARMY list, is considered an army from that codex.

In this case, the ally rules allow one HQ FOC slot. Leaders of the Pack allow 2 HQ choices per HQ. 'Nuff said.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
The fallback to basic English excuse is a copout when you have no rules support.

Great, then tell me what a vehicle's "hull" is. You can't, because you don't have rules support. You get a list of broad things you can ignore, but it never says that a hull is the remainder of the vehicle. That requires extrapolation, which you've not been explicitly allowed by the rules to do.

I might be being deliberately obtuse, but I think you are too.

You have zero rules support defining what constitutes an army and what does not. As any one single unit picked from any codex is picked from that codex's ARMY list, it stands to reason that an allied detachment, because it consists of units picked from an ARMY list, is considered an army from that codex.

By the same token, you have zero rules suppose defining what constitutes an army and what does not. Back when allies existed last time, you could field Celestine in a Witch Hunter army of a sufficient size. No one ever used her as an HQ in their IG/SM armies with allied WH though. Reason being (other than because no one allied WH) was because it was an IG/SM army.

Consider this then. The page with the FOC on it specifically mentions the word "army" when talking about your primary detachment: The FOC dictates what you can take in the main body of your army. All of the units in your primary detachment must be chosen from the same codex. The allied detachment section then talks about including in your army allied detachments. You don't have a Space Wolves army. You have an IG army who includes a detachment of Space Wolves.

daedalus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:You have zero rules support defining what constitutes an army and what does not.

By the same token, you have zero rules suppose defining what constitutes an army and what does not.

This is basically the issue defined.

No one has any rules support defining what constitutes an army and what does not.

Strict RAW gives no guidance on what constitutes an army and what does not, But Silly Rules should not, and sometimes can not, be adhered to.

So we have to figure out the best way to play it that does not break any rules.

The rules say 2 selections per force org slot and this is the best way to play it as it does not break any rules.

They still have to pay for the model so its not exactly gamebreaking. Especially since they can't take two of the most optimum build.

I'd argue if you have a IG primary and SW allied detachment you have an IG army and a SW army. If you argue that detachments aren't armies then you'd never have an army since you can only take detachments. Army and detachment are interchangeable.

I agree with both Tarrasq and DeathReaper. If the RAW does not explicitly say what a "Space Wolf Army" is then we cannot use RAW to make an objective decision for this. We are therefore left to decide what the best way to rule this is using RAI and common sense.

Option #1: If a player's primary detachment is from the Space Wolves Codex, then he/she may take up to two HQ choices per HQ slot on the FOC. BUT if the allied detachment is from the Space Wolves codex, then he may only take 1 HQ choice per HQ slot.

Option #2 : If either of a player's detachments are from the Space Wolves Codex, then he/she may take up to two HQ choices per HQ slot on the FOC.

Clearly, option 2 is simpler as it does not involve an exception to a rule due to a subjective interpretation of 3 words obscurely buried in the codex. However, it might be necessary to introduce a little complexity if there is a good reason.

So...is there a good reason to make the rules more complicated? No there isn't. So until a FAQ comes out which says I'm wrong, I will be letting my opponents take two HQ choices per HQ slot with their space wolf allies.

Grugknuckle wrote:Option #1: If a player's primary detachment is from the Space Wolves Codex, then he/she may take up to two HQ choices per HQ slot on the FOC. BUT if the allied detachment is from the Space Wolves codex, then he may only take 1 HQ choice per HQ slot.

This would seem to be the approach that best fits the rules as they currently stand. A Blood Angel army with allied Space Wolves is a Blood Angels army, not a Space Wolves army.

Clearly, option 2 is simpler as it does not involve an exception to a rule due to a subjective interpretation of 3 words obscurely buried in the codex.

Hyperbole much? The Leader of the Pack rule is not 'obscurely buried' in the codex. It's right at the start of the army list.

insaniak wrote:
A Blood Angel army with allied Space Wolves is a Blood Angels army, not a Space Wolves army.

Says who? Why isn't it a Blood Angels AND Space Wolves army? Does it say in the rules somewhere that it's only a BA army and not a SW army? Page number please.

Like I said...The rules for allies have not been out long enough for us to have a convention on what is or isn't a space wolves army. I say that any army that has at least one unit from codex space wolves is a space wolves army.

Clearly, option 2 is simpler as it does not involve an exception to a rule due to a subjective interpretation of 3 words obscurely buried in the codex.

Hyperbole much? The Leader of the Pack rule is not 'obscurely buried' in the codex. It's right at the start of the army list.

EDIT :
Hyperbole makes for entertaining reading.

Ok. Maybe it's location is not obscure, but the wording "space wolf army" is sufficiently subjective that different readers will ascribe to it different meaning. Hence the meaning of "Space Wolf Army" *is* obscure.

Grugknuckle wrote:Says who? Does it say that in the rules somewhere? Page number please.

Does it need to?

If you are building an army from Codex Blood Angels, you are building a Blood Angels army. If you add allies to it, it is a Blood Angels army with an allied detachment.

Ok...But this ruling would make things simpler wouldn't it?

The idea that the Leader of the Pack rule only applies to Space Wolf armies, and not to allied detachments, is not particularly complicated.

insaniak wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:Says who? Does it say that in the rules somewhere? Page number please.

Does it need to?

If you are building an army from Codex Blood Angels, you are building a Blood Angels army. If you add allies to it, it is a Blood Angels army with an allied detachment.

It is a Blood angels army, and a SW army at that point, as they are working together they are a combined force.

DeathReaper wrote:It is a Blood angels army, and a SW army at that point, as they are working together they are a combined force.

I would buy that if the allies rules allowed you to build two equal detachments, but they don't. The way the rules have been set up, the Allied Detachment is clearly a lesser force tacked onto the Primary detachment.

You are building an army from BOTH codecies. Just like the last time there were allies in the rules, you would be building a BA / SW army.

The idea that the Leader of the Pack rule only applies to Space Wolf armies, and not to allied detachments, is not particularly complicated.

No, but you are artificially imposing the codex of the army as the codex of the primary detachment and it IS an exception to a rule which is found in a separate book - hence it is more complicated. Furthermore, there are no RAW to support the choice of naming convention - BA army with SW allies over BA and SW army. It's all artificial.

So give me one good reason why you would choose the more complex rule interpretation over the simpler one. Why would you do that?


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Specifically, what is the point of taking advantage of the mismatched language from the 6th rules cross-over. Can we say what RAI was, when the SW codex was written for 5th ed?

Of course they're going to write "Space Wolf Army" instead of "Space Wolf Detachment". Because in those days, an army took all of it's units from a single codex.

You guys are intentionally looking for problems with the cross-over - which is fine - but whenever possible you should make rulings in favor of smoothing the problems between editions.

We don't have any RAW. What was RAI?

Grugknuckle wrote:You are building an army from BOTH codecies. Just like the last time there were allies in the rules, you would be building a BA / SW army.

Sure... but the Primary army is Blood Angels. So it's a Blood Angels army with Space Wolves tacked on.

No, but you are artificially imposing the codex of the army as the codex of the primary detachment and it IS an exception to a rule which is found in a separate book - hence it is more complicated.

It's not an exception. It's a rule that only applies to Space Wolves armies.

So give me one good reason why you would choose the more complex rule interpretation over the simpler one. Why would you do that?

Because it's not more complicated. It's resulting in Space Wolves allies not using a particular special rule, and as a result having the same number of HQ options as everyone else. So less complicated. One less rule, and consistency. Everyone wins.

insaniak wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:You are building an army from BOTH codecies. Just like the last time there were allies in the rules, you would be building a BA / SW army.

Sure... but the Primary army is Blood Angels. So it's a Blood Angels army with Space Wolves tacked on.

It seems to me that it is a Blood Angels army with Space Wolves army tacked on.

When the primary army is blood angels the secondary(Allied) army is Space Wolves.