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Heavy tanks say they count all weapons as shooting stationary.....this is after it says vehicles shoot ordinance then snap fire.....

So does a heavy tank snap fire at all (besides flier shooting.....)?

Heavy tanks will never have to snap fire at a target on the ground due to the wording of the Heavy Rule.

As much as it pains this IG player to say...

The heavy vehicle entry only states that the vehicle counts as stationary when determining what can, and at what BS, weapons can fire.

The vehicles and ordnance entry explicitly states that if a vehicle fires an ordnance weapon, ALL other weapon may only be snap-fired that turn.

The ordnance rule restricts weapon to snap-fire only and the heavy vehicle has nothing in it to override this.

Yep, exactly what I said in the last thread man. In some ways, it's better than lumbering behemoth, and worse in others.

Ordnance tanks have been nerfed fairly hard.

Non Ordnance tanks have been buffed fairly well.

Just what we'll have to learn to deal with.

There is nothing you can do to get a tank that's firing a battlecannon to fire any other weapon at full BS. Unless you don't shoot the main cannon of course, but if you're doing that, why are you bothering with buying a Leman russ in the first place? Just buy a punisher or something if all you want to do is shoot bolters.

Unless they also fire an ordnance weapon.

I should have made that clear in my post.

 sfshilo wrote:
Heavy tanks say they count all weapons as shooting stationary.....this is after it says vehicles shoot ordinance then snap fire.....

So does a heavy tank snap fire at all (besides flier shooting.....)?

Looking at the context of the entry on ordinance, it may be poor wording on GW's part that improperly reflects their intention. The comment about vehicles that fire ordinance may only snapfire other weapons is in the context of a comment that vehicles are allowed to fire ordinance on the move whereas this is otherwise normally not allowed. Therefore, it could be that what they meant to say is that if a vehicle fires ordinance on the move it may only snapfire other weapons. This thinking seems to be what Forgeworld thinks since I was recently forwarded the following email exchange:

> From: "Forge World (UK)" <forgeworld@gwplc.com>
> Date: January 10, 2013, 9:25:57 AM EST
> To: NAME REMOVED
> Subject: Re: Super Heavy vehicles and Ordnance weapons
>
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for your e-mail. Page 83 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook states that Heavy vehicles always count as remaining stationary for shooting; the Vehicles and Ordnance paragraph on page 71 specifically relates to the Moving and Shooting with Vehicles heading.
>
> The Heavy or Super-heavy type overrides this; as such yes, the Internet is just a bit confused because it's not especially clear from the rules.
>
> If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
>
> Regards,
> Forge World
>
>
>
> If you have a query about your order, please call
> 0115 900 4995 within the UK
> 011 44 115 900 4995 from the US and Canada
> 00 44 115 900 4995 from much of Europe
>
> Our office hours are:
> 0930 – 1800 (GMT) Monday to Friday
> 0930 – 1700 (GMT) Saturday
>
>
> On 10 January 2013 11:53, NAME REMOVED wrote:
>
> So that means that my Leman Russ can fire its Battlecannon and still fire the sponson weapons with full Ballistic Skill? That will make my Guard very happy if it does.
>
> Also you might want to get that put into a FAQ both for Forge World and 40K as my original reading of the rule seems to be the common one, if what I've read around the Internet is any indication.
>
> Thanks again!
> NAME REMOVED
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 10, 2013, at 5:04 AM, "Forge World (UK)" <forgeworld@gwplc.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi there.
>>
>> The reference to firing Ordnance weapons and other weapons specifically relates to moving and shooting. As Super Heavy vehicles (and Heavy vehicles) always count as stationary when firing, other, non-ordnance weapons may be fired with the full BS.
>>
>>
>> On 10 January 2013 01:32, NAME REMOVED wrote:
>>
>> Have a question about Super Heavy vehicles and Ordnance weapons. On page 71 of the 6th edition rulebook it says that a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can fire other weapons but they count as Snap Shots. Since all Super Heavy vehicles have Ordnance weaponry this rule makes them far less useful. Ordnance, Blast, and Template weapons cannot be fired as Snap Shots so many of the weapons on things like Titans can't be fired and those weapons that can be are far less effective when they only hit on a 6.
>>
>> I have read the Super Heavy rules in the new Imperial Armoir book several times and cannot find any rule to override the Vegicles and Ordnance rule from the main rulebook. Have I just missed something somewhere?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> NAME REMOVED
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Forge World
>>
>>
>>
>> If you have a query about your order, please call
>> 0115 900 4995 within the UK
>> 011 44 115 900 4995 from the US and Canada
>> 00 44 115 900 4995 from much of Europe
>>
>> Our office hours are:
>> 0930 – 1800 (GMT) Monday to Friday
>> 0930 – 1700 (GMT) Saturday

Honestly, other than 6" movement rule, the "Heavy" rule is completely redundant with the "Relentless" rule that vehicles also have.

But, to the guy above me, the problem is that rule regarding ordnance and vehicles is two parts, not one with a sub-part. One says they can move and shoot. The other says if they shoot ordnance, they fire snap shots. Not, if they move and shoot ordnance.

That email makes sense from an idiot writing the rulebook standpoint. It does talk about moving and firing before restricting other guns to snap fire.

However, RAW currently disallows this. No FAQ to specifically override it. Poorly written or no, you gotta play it as it's written unless you want to house rule it. And I want to house rule it. I want to use my monolith again

All being a Heavy does is make you always count as Stationary for firing your weapons. The Ordinance rule says if you fire an Ordinance weapon you can only Snap Fire other weapons. neither contradicts the other.

I agree it's (at best) a big stretch of the RAW to say stationary vehicles can fire ordinance and other weapons normally.

However, being a lawyer in real life, I'm equal to the challenge of justifying that stretch, although I would not try to pull this on an opponent absent an established house rule. The bit in question from the rule book states "a vehicle that fires an Ordinance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn". So does "that turn" refer to any turn, or to a turn that the vehicle fires while moving? I think an argument can be made that it refers to a vehicle that fired its Ordinance weapon on the moving given the context of the preceding sentence and the fact that this sub-heading comes under the heading "Moving and Shooting with Vehicles". Further, consider the context of the section preceding "vehicles and ordinance weapons" which states that a vehicle that moved at combat speed fires 1 weapon at full BS and others at snap shot. So, it makes sense that the rulemakers are attempting to "clarify" the statement that vehciles can fired ordinance on the move as well as other weapons, but that the Ordinance weapon counts as the 1 full BS shot and that the normal restrictions of combat speed otherwise apply.

And the Imperial Guard FAQ of "Lumbering Behemoth = Heavy" actually makes sense under this interpretation, because otherwise having the heavy designation is of no assistance for the majority of Leman Russ variants. It's an interpretation that makes sense, anyway. Wishing GW would write clear rules is futile

I would post a comment, but well, apparently I already did

So yeah, there's my argument.

Also, if GW intended my Demolishers to be able to fire plasma cannons, a lascannon, and a demolisher all at the same time, I might just take back every mean thing I ever said about them.

Of course, nobody would want to play against russes ever again

However:

And the Imperial Guard FAQ of "Lumbering Behemoth = Heavy" actually makes sense under this interpretation, because otherwise having the heavy designation is of no assistance for the majority of Leman Russ variants. It's an interpretation that makes sense, anyway. Wishing GW would write clear rules is futile

Only two leman russes have the ordnance special rule, the regular battle tank and the demolisher. Quite to the contrary, most tanks are NOT ordnance russes, and so the vast majority DID improve with the update. That's why you see exterminators, punishers, vanquishers, and executioners all earning a good following. It's just that before the update, the two ordnance tanks were the main ones you saw, because they were easily the best ones for the points.

I stand corrected.

Time will tell. The Forgeworld response does seem a bit too good to be true, which means it probably is.

I don't really think the context argument flies here.

Firstly, the restriction against firing anything else at full BS when you fire ordnance is, in fact, found in the "Shooting with vehicles" section, not in the "Vehicle movement section", so clearly snap firing is within the realm of shooting, not movement rules.

Secondly, the "however" in the second sentence must be disregarded, as it doesn't make its antecedent clear. Is it referring to the "can move", to the "can fire", or to the "unlike other units", or "with ordnance weapons"? There's just no way to know what is being overridden. Personally, I'd say the "however" is part of the same basic idea as the "unlike" clause from the previous sentence.

As such, without any clear overturning of a previous rule, the two rules should be taken in parallel, rather than as one with a contradiction.

Of course, this means snap firing for ordnance russes.

 Ailaros wrote:

Of course, this means snap firing for ordnance russes.

Well, I'm cool with the RAW, actually, since all of my vanilla Russes have no sponsons, and only heavy flamer hull weapons.

So, can you fire sponson weapons at full BS then fire the ordnance weapon?

Also flamers can't be snap fired

GreyG884 wrote:
So, can you fire sponson weapons at full BS then fire the ordnance weapon?

Also flamers can't be snap fired

No, if you fire them at full BS then you're out of luck on firing the ordnance. Or you can go back and undo all that the sponsons did.