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Hello dakka,

I'm either picking up dwarves or beastmen and I'm drafting 2500 point lists of both (see the beastmen list here -http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/490734.page#5009794 )

Lords
Dwarf Lord, Shieldbearers, No KB/P, 5++ ward, GW, +1 to hit = 271

Heroes
Thane, BSB, 1+, No KB/P, +1 WS = 140
Runesmith, Balance, Dispel, Shield = 147

Core
30 Warriors, GW, Champ/Banner = 320
30 Warriors, GW, Champ/Banner = 320
20 Quarrelers, GW, Music = 265
20 Quarrelers, GW, Music = 265

Special
22 Ironbreakers, Grungri, Champ/Banner = 360
Bolt Thrower, Engineer, Flaming = 65
Bolt Thrower, Engineer = 60
Cannon, Engineer, Forging, Flaming = 145
Cannon, Engineer, Forging = 140

The Lord's kit means he has a 2+/5++ and will likely hit and wound on 2's vs. almost anything. The BSB has a 1+ save and is WS7, which means WS3 troopers need 5's to hit for extra defense.

I don't want to spam war machines - I've seen enough of my opponents warmachines blow up when they need it most, so I don't trust the Organ Gun and don't want to shell out for a master engineer grudge thrower. I want to neutralize large targets, chaff, and defend my flank and then commit ~140 troops to battle.

The battle line I have in mind is...

B C R C B
Q W I W Q

The lord and thane would both go in the Ironbreaker unit, which creates essentially a frontage of characters. Thoughts?

A few things:

- Dwarf Lords are super tough, but Runelords are basically just as tough, and offer magic defense. I think most people consider them to be a more valuable buy.

- If you take a Runelord, I'd put Stone on your Runesmith, too. A 2+/6+ in combat is pretty respectable.

- Musicians are super useful. Why not put them in all your blocks?

- Ironbreakers are not that great, sadly. They cost more than Hammerers and are more durable, but because they're so much worse at killing, they end up losing the war of attrition anyway. S6 is just so useful, and Stubborn is amazing.

- Bolt Throwers are widely considered the least useful of the war machines. I'd swap them both out for one Grudge Thrower (Penetration [maybe X2]+ Accuracy). It'll cost you 5pts more, but with the potential to take out big units, monsters, and with Indirect Fire, it's worth it.

- Most people don't run Engineers, but I will encourage you to do so; my friend uses them, and her war machines are really tough to kill.
I'd also recommend a brace of pistols. For 5pts, you get 2 shots when they charge and an extra attack in combat. Against those little units people usually throw at war machines, that can make a big difference.
I don't think you need an Engineer on every machine, but it's tough to say which one would be best.
On one hand, all three benefit from a better BS (Cannons with grapeshot and Grudge Throwers with indirect fire), but only the Grudge Thrower really benefits from re-rolling Misfires! (since the Cannons already have Forging).
On the other, a Cannon's grapeshot has no minimum range, so a crafty player will target them first. If you put a pistol-wielding Engineer with one or two Cannons, the war machine hunters won't usually make it to the second or third machine in your batter.