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We know Ordo Hereticus did not appear until after the Age of Apostasy. Although the exact date of the founding of the GK is unknown, it had to be before the end of Malcador's life since he founded them. But what about the Deathwatch? The Great Crusade seems to have pacified the xenos threat for some time after the Heresy, giving the Imperium time to re-orient itself. Were there alien-hunting specialist Inquisitors in the meantime?

I think it's important to remember the Deathwatch is not the Ordo Xenos.

What we know about the Ordo Xenos and their founding is that it was before that of the Ordo Hereticus, which was the second century of the 36th millenium.

It makes sense that there would have been alienhunting specialists, given that the Cabal and their plots we see in "Legion" would have fallen under their purview (aliens and alien plots against the Imperium).

I would even go so far as to say it makes sense that they would have Astartes in their numbers, since they would have been better equipped to deal with the militant side of things when compared to your average human.

Going back to the DW corebook, the DW proper (i.e, black-armored Astartes) goes back only some centuries, right? I don't think you answered this before -- does the source give a sense of its own place in time? I mean, is this a millennia-old source referring to a few centuries before itself or a record from the "present" (early M42) referring to late M41?

It seems to be more of a record from the present, as the Jericho Reach Maw Warp Gate was found in 755.M41.

I'm checking for other sources mentioning the "Apocryphon Conclave of Orphite IV".

That's another question -- does the DW corebook source refer to the DW generally or the Jericho Reach conclave in particular?

It's in a section about the Deathwatch in general, so it's safe to say it is referring to the Deathwatch as a whole not just the Jericho Reach.

There's no information on the Deathwatch before events in M41, but that also doesn't mean it's a recent thing. There's no real way of telling.

Another approach is, do we know any SM who have served in the DW for more than two centuries? This will at least give us a minimum time frame.

I don't think we do, but that has more to do with the Deathwatch having "permanent" members being a relatively new bit of fluff.

I never understood the purpose of Deathwatch. What's the use of half a dozen specialist fighters when half the sector is flooded with Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau etc . You need the whole IG and all SM chapters to counter them. And no chance to fight those in secret.

Don't the DW handle stuff more like genestealer infiltration rather than Waaaaghs?

 Kroothawk wrote:
I never understood the purpose of Deathwatch. What's the use of half a dozen specialist fighters when half the sector is flooded with Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau etc . You need the whole IG and all SM chapters to counter them. And no chance to fight those in secret.

The Deathwatch does not operate in a vacuum, just like most specialized forces.
Nor do they operate entirely in secret.

They are specialized troops who can be deployed and act on their own initiative, lending their skills and knowledge to the battle at large.


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 Manchu wrote:
Don't the DW handle stuff more like genestealer infiltration rather than Waaaaghs?

Yes and no.

They are just as likely to be deployed to fight a Waagh! by going after the Warboss himself as they are going after a Genestealer brood in a Hive City.

It seems like such a role would have been of immense value long before M41 ("centuries ago"). Another issue: a lot of Chapters, including all the First Founding Chapters, contribute warriors to the Deathwatch. When did they agree to this? Wouldn't a treaty like that be a moment of huge historical significance? It doesn't seem quite right that this would have happened just a few centuries ago, especially given the general bad blood between the SW and the Inquisition. I guess this could be the work of some grandfather clause.

See, here's the way I'm looking at it:

The First Founding Chapters would have been willing to work with the Ordo Xenos since the beginning. After all, hate the Xenos and all that "rawr, humans first!" jazz.
The Apocryphon Conclave just cemented the formation of a specialist organization of Astartes, which would be under Inquisitorial control and operating alongside the Inquisitors themselves in their whole Inquisitioning.

I look at it as a kind of "knowledge sharing exercise", allowing Chapters to commit their forces in a way that will also give them a bit of favor with the Inquisition and 'reward' in the form of that returning Deathwatch veteran bringing the knowledge and tactics they gained while serving in the Deathwatch back to the Chapter.

 Kanluwen wrote:
since the beginning

That's kind of the sticking point.

Is there just one Inquisition and the ordos are just ... flavors? Or is the "Inquisition" the term for the collection of the Ordos? If it's the former, then alien-hunting would surely have fallen within its Imperial remit from the founding of the Inquisition itself. Therefore, no matter when the term "Ordo Xenos" came around, there have always been alien-hunting Inquisitors regardless of whether they were alien-hunting specialists. So our question becomes, at what point did some Inquisitors do nothing but work regarding the xenos? And were these Inquisitors requisitioning Space Marines? Such requisition could probably fall within the "Inquisition can take whatever resources it needs" provision, which undoubtedly rankles with Chapter Masters. The DW then probably came about as the normalization of relations between the Chapters and the Inquisition. Why so late? And why not also with regard to Ordo Hereticus?

The Inquisition is the term for the collection of the Ordos.

There are three Ordos Major: Xenos, Hereticus, and Malleus.
There are a ton of Ordos Minoris, ranging from the Ordo Sepulturum ("Zombie Hunters" who were founded during the 13th Black Crusade) to the Ordo Sicarius (who essentially "police" the Assassin temples).

Why it took so long for the Deathwatch to come about, I do not think we'll ever know.

In regards to the Ordo Hereticus, the Ordo Hereticus is very antagonistic towards the various Astartes Chapters. We've seen this with the Space Wolves, most notably.
The OH is seemingly very closely linked to the Ecclesiarchy.

 Kroothawk wrote:
I never understood the purpose of Deathwatch. What's the use of half a dozen specialist fighters when half the sector is flooded with Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau etc . You need the whole IG and all SM chapters to counter them. And no chance to fight those in secret.

Deathwatch is used for more specialized missions. i.e. assassinating an Ork Warboss, defeating a powerful Genestealer cult, and so on.

But yes they could be a lot bigger, that'st rue with space marines as a whole though. There's no way 3 Company's of Astartes could even to conquer and hold something the size of the continental U.S., nevermind entire planets. GW is just bad with numbers.

I don't think that is correct. It seems to me that the Inquisition, rather than a particular Ordo, is what Malcador founded and that the Ordos arose as necessary. The difference between the Ordos Majoris and Ordos Minoris then is simply one of scale in time.

 Harriticus wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
I never understood the purpose of Deathwatch. What's the use of half a dozen specialist fighters when half the sector is flooded with Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau etc . You need the whole IG and all SM chapters to counter them. And no chance to fight those in secret.

Deathwatch is used for more specialized missions. i.e. assassinating an Ork Warboss, defeating a powerful Genestealer cult, and so on.

But yes they could be a lot bigger, that'st rue with space marines as a whole though. There's no way 3 Company's of Astartes could even to conquer and hold something the size of the continental U.S., nevermind entire planets. GW is just bad with numbers.

Astartes are not used to conquer.

They're used like special forces, where they act as a force multiplier and commit acts of sabotage/assassination against the enemy rather than acting as your general infantry.


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 Manchu wrote:
I don't think that is correct. It seems to me that the Inquisition, rather than a particular Ordo, is what Malcador founded and that the Ordos arose as necessary. The difference between the Ordos Majoris and Ordos Minoris then is simply one of scale in time.

I would not say it's necessarily of "scale in time" but rather "scale of the threat".

The Assassin Temples, as an example, are a relatively small threat.
Likewise the Ordo Sepulturum is very specialized, dealing solely with the Plague Zombies that cropped up during the 13th Black Crusade.

Scale in time, not scale of time. As in, should the Temples become a very big problem (e.g., during the Beheading), Sicarius would presumably become an Ordo Majoris. Ordo Xenos was likely an Ordo Minoris during the Age of Rebirth, for example, perhaps all the way up to the end of the Redemption Crusades and the Waning. With the advent of resurgent alien threats, especially the tyranid menace, there is no question why Ordo Xenos would be counted an Ordo Majoris by the end of M41.

See, I'd argue that once the Imperium knew about the "Cabal" there is no question that the Ordo Xenos would have been an Ordo Majoris.

And I'd argue that the Cabal only exists in the minds -- or the lies -- of the Alpha Legion.

Not really. The Cabal is described to us from the point of view of an omniscient narrator, not the point of view of Alpharius and the Alpha Legion.

I'm fairly sure that the Cabal remains a relative mystery and unknown, down into the 41st Millennium.

And, given the nature of what 'just happened' in 30K, and given the fact that the Xenos Threat was largely not a major threat back then, there's really no way to place the foundation of the ORDO XENOS back that far.

It is curious to note that we can't place a finger on a calendar to state when it was founded though!

We can place the founding of the Ordo Xenos to before M36 (but after the Horus Heresy) and Deathwatch "a few centuries" before M41.

The Xenos Threat may not have been a "major threat", but it was not one that did not exist.

While you're right Alphy that it is unlikely that Garro was told by the Emperor to fight aliens (the Loxatl? really? that was your example? ), it's not unlikely that Malcador did take aliens into consideration when he (theoretically) founded the Inquisition.

Especially when you take into consideration that Malcador did set into motion the founding of the Grey Knights to deal with Daemons.

An organization called the Cabal existed. That's really all we know about any of it. For all we know, Alpharius Omegon himself/themselves could have engineered the whole thing to subvert his/their Legion. One further thing that we know about the Cabal is that they were wrong: they predicted that if the Alpha Legion joined Horus then the Warmaster would be able to succeed. Their other prediction, that the galaxy would be consumed by the Ruinous Powers in 10,000 to 20,000 years, is no more believable than any other prognostication that has yet to be proven in the passage of time. Finally we can infer from the Cabal's apparent manipulation of the Alpha Legion, that it was not itself a militarily mighty organization. But of primary importance is the question of whether anyone in the Imperium besides the Alpha Legion even knew of the Cabal.


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 Kanluwen wrote:
We can place the founding of the Ordo Xenos to before M36 (but after the Horus Heresy)

By what argument and upon what sources?

My Loxatl example was on purpose - to show the absurdity of your idea that Garro would found the Ordo... Xenos.

In the wake of the largest betrayal and calamity to befall Mankind, I think that an Organization to deal with that, and not aliens, would probably be at the forefront.

 Manchu wrote:
An organization called the Cabal existed. That's really all we know about any of it. For all we know, Alpharius Omegon himself/themselves could have engineered the whole thing to subvert his/their Legion. One further thing that we know about the Cabal is that they were wrong: they predicted that if the Alpha Legion joined Horus then the Warmaster would be able to succeed. Their other prediction, that the galaxy would be consumed by the Ruinous Powers in 10,000 to 20,000 years, is no more believable than any other prognostication that has yet to be proven in the passage of time. Finally we can infer from the Cabal's apparent manipulation of the Alpha Legion, that it was not itself a militarily mighty organization. But of primary importance is the question of whether anyone in the Imperium besides the Alpha Legion even knew of the Cabal.

The Cabal may not have been a "militarily mighty organization", but the Deathwatch/Ordo Xenos are not strictly dealing with the "military" aspect. They also deal with the more insidious bits, like the supposed Tau weapons dealing that was going on in Necromunda's hive spires.

I'd argue though that the Cabal's apparent manipulation of the Alpha Legion fits with the modus operandi of the Eldar, in that they prefer to manipulate situations to the "best possible advantage".

 Kanluwen wrote:
We can place the founding of the Ordo Xenos to before M36 (but after the Horus Heresy)

By what argument and upon what sources?

The Ordo Hereticus was founded much later than the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus, created after the Age of Apostasy which occurred during the second century of the 36th millennium. The Apostasy and the many heresies that took root during the anarchy (most notably the Plague of Unbelief), had severely destabilized the Imperium in a way not seen since the Horus Heresy.

I'm working secondhand on that one, as it is supposedly from "Codex: Witch Hunters" and I do not have a copy of that anymore.


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 Alpharius wrote:
My Loxatl example was on purpose - to show the absurdity of your idea that Garro would found the Ordo... Xenos.

In the wake of the largest betrayal and calamity to befall Mankind, I think that an Organization to deal with that, and not aliens, would probably be at the forefront.

Please go back and read what I wrote.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm more inclined to think that he is going to be the "founder" of the Deathwatch, given the way the Deathwatch is now evolving from the RPG. It's a given that he will be a founding member of the Inquisition though.

I think it's a rather sensible evolution, where not only do they deal with aliens but everything and anything that the Astartes could reasonably be needed for but the Grey Knights might not be needed for.

The Deathwatch is no longer "just" about fighting the Xenos (although technically it never was, as they also specialized in recovering alien artifacts and technology), but rather the enemies of the Imperium at large.
Just like the Grey Knights are no longer "just" about fighting the Daemon, but the enemies of the Imperium.

Both organizations are certainly specialized and better equipped for one type of enemy, but they can deal with the others in a pinch if necessary.

The Deathwatch RPG is not set during current 40k (999M41). While I don't have my books with me at the moment, off the top of my head it was at least at least 150 years earlier.

Just did a bit of searching around and according to the Jericho Reach timeline available online, Watch Fortress Erioch had marines in it serving in the deathwatch as long ago as M35, which must mean the deathwatch had been around for at least that long.

And here I always thought that Deathwatch was founded way back in M31'st when Legions were disbanded into Chapters.
It is logical to me, two major Ordos were founded then - one to fight Chaos and one to fight aliens. Ordo Malleus already had Grey Knights as it's military arm, so it was only logical that Ordo Xenos military arm consist of Astartes too - but made up from elite Astartes driven from several Chapters.
I don't know how they stand now as Grey Knights represent military arm of entire Inquisition ( thank you Ward ).