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- Dark Angels always have some High Lord of Terra to cover for them, there is reference for that in Hrud Rising in M35 ( where Dark Angels abandon the campaign to hunt the fallen and after that Ultramarines file a complain to High Lords of Terra. No action was every taken to investigate this even if complain was filed by Ultramaires themselves ) and in founding of The Disciples of Caliban ( everybody found it very strange but High Lords approved it nevertheless, this is the basic assumption that they have leverage as that was mentioned in text ).

-Interrogator Chaplains travel to planet Malmar, witch is close to the Eye of Terror, to recover the black pearls and to put it on their Reclusiam when they made the Fallen repent. This is very hard to achieve as the most pearls that single Chaplain ever obtained was 10.

-There are Fallen who actually feel guilty for what they have done and they decided to hind among the Human population and redeem themselves by helping out others. This is a little stupid to me because everybody can recognize 8 feet tall giant that is wide as two or three Humans. It's not surprising they found one very quickly among the ordinary population.

-Dark Angels now have ten statues witch are in fact very powerful shield generations , able to project field that can repel even Lascannon shots from vehicles inside it.

-Probably the most interesting one: Dar kAngels are hiding a LOT of STC's for themselves. The Nephilim, the Talon and rumored that they even have Jetbike STC ( giving the number of times the JEtbike was lost and every time a new one appeared ).

-Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle. The Rock is moving trough Imperium and the latest report stated that the Rock is heading to Cadia to counter the Abbadoon's 13'th Black Crusade. Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes. Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

So what do you think?

I don't think that they are going to finish the story, but they are going to move it forward. Maybe a new global campaign, maybe the primarchs come back, or maybe it will just stay here. There are many possibilities of what could happen but I don't think a radical change in the story will happen because GW needs to make some money.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:There are Fallen who actually feel guilty for what they have done and they decided to hind among the Human population and redeem themselves by helping out others. This is a little stupid to me because everybody can recognize 8 feet tall giant that is wide as two or three Humans.

When we keep in mind that there are Ogryns as a tolerated near-human subspecies, it is, or so I think, actually not that difficult to consider an ex-Astartes hiding out amongst the population. Mutations take many forms, and body size is one of them. Not to mention worlds where the people naturally grow so bulky (Catachans) that a former Space Marine could pass simply as "a bit bigger than the rest". Seriously, google what an incredible range in body height/mass we have in our real world, you'd be surprised!

I for one consider it possible that a "naked" Marine could simply slip into well-concealing robes and hide amongst, for example, the people in some underhive. Living conditions are so gakky down there that I don't think many will be concerned with the body size of some good samaritan. People just have other priorities, not to mention that this is also where a whole lot of "other" mutants will be found. I mean, just look at the Scavvie gangs in Necromunda, specifically the Scalies (a stable reptilian form of human mutation) who are said to be "almost as broad as they are tall".
It really depends on the world/culture in question, though, and I would expect the majority of ex-DA's to be found out sooner or later because few of them will be able to adapt to their new home fast and well enough to avoid calling the attention of various Imperial authorities down on him before expiring. Regardless of the Imperium's general dismissive stance towards the dregs of society, its feelers extend into every level.

On a sidenote, Space Marines are still "just" ~7 feet in GW's world. I know the 8 seems to be more popular lately, but it hasn't found its way into studio material yet.

Thank you for listing some of the book's fluff, though! Most of it was new for me, though I vaguely recall having seen bits and pieces in older material. GW has a habit of occasionally reprinting things, and in 6E in particular I noticed a lot of old stuff resurface again word for word.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
-Probably the most interesting one: Dar kAngels are hiding a LOT of STC's for themselves. The Nephilim, the Talon and rumored that they even have Jetbike STC ( giving the number of times the JEtbike was lost and every time a new one appeared ).

This one bothers me a bit as it seems to be a trend for every time a new piece of equipment is added to a marine codex. The Grey Knights had a similar explanation for much of their gear. I'm not saying every marine dex should have access to them but I'd rather it be that the AM wished no one had access to these particular STCs but had to provide them to the Dark Angels to pay off some ancient debt, under the conditions that they are not shared beyond The Unforgiven (Not that the Dark Angels would do that anyway).

 Lynata wrote:
I for one consider it possible that a "naked" Marine could simply slip into well-concealing robes and hide amongst, for example, the people in some underhive. Living conditions are so gakky down there that I don't think many will be concerned with the body size of some good samaritan. People just have other priorities, not to mention that this is also where a whole lot of "other" mutants will be found. I mean, just look at the Scavvie gangs in Necromunda, specifically the Scalies (a stable reptilian form of human mutation) who are said to be "almost as broad as they are tall".

Completely agree. A space marine in a hood could easily pass for an ogryn, a large servitor, or any other large mutant. Hell I'm sure half the gangs on Necromunda have at least one 7 foot tall guy hopped up on steroids that, at least visually, a space marine could pass for.

jareddm wrote:This one bothers me a bit as it seems to be a trend for every time a new piece of equipment is added to a marine codex. The Grey Knights had a similar explanation for much of their gear. I'm not saying every marine dex should have access to them but I'd rather it be that the AM wished no one had access to these particular STCs but had to provide them to the Dark Angels to pay off some ancient debt, under the conditions that they are not shared beyond The Unforgiven (Not that the Dark Angels would do that anyway).

It does seem a bit weird, in that I too would not have considered the Astartes to be that independent from the AdMech. I mean, just reproducing the "common" patterns, sure. But whipping up something entirely new? I would imagine even the Mechanicus taking a lot of time and resources to make use of a recovered STC, most of whom are damaged to a point where complete recovery just isn't possible and you have to fill in the rest with your own creativity.

On the other hand it certainly fits with the idea that the Marines are sort of preserving the Imperium as imagined by the Emperor, at least in some fashion, with some Astartes "enclaves" not only being socially superior but sporting a greater understanding of technology as well. Not what I would have liked to see, but I can't shake off the suspicion.

As for exclusive AdMech deals, indeed it would have been a viable alternative - we know they're doing such contracts because it was referenced in the Immolator background.

jareddm wrote:Hell I'm sure half the gangs on Necromunda have at least one 7 foot tall guy hopped up on steroids that, at least visually, a space marine could pass for.

Maybe those are the guys who get to carry the heavy bolters.

[edit] Hey, turns out GW even sells what I assume to be a Scaly! Second guy from the top left?

Also, remember many of the Fallen were once Knights of Caliban. They were actually too old to become space marines, so they were just given additional implants and surgery to at least be able to function as an Astartes, but they were still just heavily augmented humans. So they could indeed pass as a regular human amoung a normal population.

It does seem a bit weird, in that I too would not have considered the Astartes to be that independent from the AdMech. I mean, just reproducing the "common" patterns, sure. But whipping up something entirely new? I would imagine even the Mechanicus taking a lot of time and resources to make use of a recovered STC, most of whom are damaged to a point where complete recovery just isn't possible and you have to fill in the rest with your own creativity.

On the other hand it certainly fits with the idea that the Marines are sort of preserving the Imperium as imagined by the Emperor, at least in some fashion, with some Astartes "enclaves" not only being socially superior but sporting a greater understanding of technology as well. Not what I would have liked to see, but I can't shake off the suspicion.

As for exclusive AdMech deals, indeed it would have been a viable alternative - we know they're doing such contracts because it was referenced in the Immolator background.

Actually, of the Astartes, the Dark Angels is the most secretive and has their own forges within The rock, keeping tech hidden to themselves is something they'd very likely do. They've always been superior in tech to most Space Marines (Which is why everyone gave them the associative "plasma plasma plasma" having old tech and the like)

Space Marine Chapters are often self-sufficient, having their own shipbased manufacturing capabilities. It is in the best interest of their purpose to be independent of any ties that make them dependent on anyone else.

You wouldn't want the Ad Mech to have complete control over all the chapters.

Honestly I like the new angle of certain Space Marine chapters hoarding STC's they've discovered to themselves, much to the chagrin of Mars.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
-

-Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle. The Rock is moving trough Imperium and the latest report stated that the Rock is heading to Cadia to counter the Abbadoon's 13'th Black Crusade. Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes. Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

So what do you think?

*finds all of them interesting. Reads about the Lion and feels the need to post the meme of the stick figure spitting out his cerial*

seriously? Thats fething awsome. I actually love that.

Its molds in nicely with what I have been arguring for a while, have Chaos win a massive victory, but right before Cadia is lost, the Lion comes in and turns the tide saving Cadia and granting the Imperium breathing room (note I meant for me, not for the setting as a whole, this is my personal fluff here)

With the Lion back the Imperium can start perform well on all fronts in the war having a loyal Primarch return and all. I actually love this

Sounds like a massive change in direction as the Lion waking up and turning the tide would make the corpse that is the IOM resurrect. Maybe in a fanfiction-universe that can happen, but not this as I like the actual hopelessness of wh40k.

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marine Chapters are often self-sufficient, having their own shipbased manufacturing capabilities. It is in the best interest of their purpose to be independent of any ties that make them dependent on anyone else.

I know that - it's why I specifically referred to coming up with entirely new stuff rather than producing "licensed copies". In essence, I would not have thought that a Chapter's Tech-Marines would be that good, given the focus of their training. I don't quite see how they would have acquired the know-how.

For what it's worth, the Astartes are still dependent on the AdMech for training new Tech-Marines and the High Lords for the gene-seed, anyways. Although the former could be overcome by in-house training, I guess.
In the end, the Chaos Warbands are a good example in showing us how Space Marines can keep operating even after cutting off all ties - perhaps with reduced efficiency, but more freedoms in other areas.

Grey Templar wrote:Also, remember many of the Fallen were once Knights of Caliban. They were actually too old to become space marines, so they were just given additional implants and surgery to at least be able to function as an Astartes, but they were still just heavily augmented humans. So they could indeed pass as a regular human amoung a normal population.

Huh, I didn't think of that - good point!

Beaviz81 wrote:Sounds like a massive change in direction as the Lion waking up and turning the tide would make the corpse that is the IOM resurrect. Maybe in a fanfiction-universe that can happen, but not this as I like the actual hopelessness of wh40k.

I don't see a change quite yet - Jonson being alive is one of the bits I know from old books. Or was the comment in response to Galdos? In that case I'd agree, not to mention that I would doubt that a single Primarch could have such an effect. It's not like Angron was such a beast lately... compared to the mythos, anyways.

By the way ... did the new DA 'dex use this wording, by any chance?
"Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest secret of the Chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside the secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against its enemies."
That's taken from the 2E Codex: Angels of Death ... GW has been digging up a lot of old material lately; entire pages of the fluff in the 6E rulebook have been ripped straight out of the Codex Imperialis.

It was in response to Galdos. And Lion was against the IOM of Robute so he would try some reforms I doubt the Ultramarines would like.

Angron seems to come rolling just to be banished, but humiliating for a Primarch is Magnus. He basically is a living bullseye for Ragnar to throw a spear into. Mortarion got licked quite good as well.

I think it would be great if the IOM could get a primarch. It would make for good stories.

Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Dont forget about Luther. He is mentioned briefly in the codex and also in the new Ravenwing book by Gav Thorpe. Azraels sword is the only key to his cell (hence Sword of Secrets). Luther is in a cell, almost as deep in the Rock as the Lion. He is mad, but alive. He rants and raves that soon the Lion will awake and forgive him. Luther is how the DA know much of what they do about the Fallen.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:


-Probably the most interesting one: Dar kAngels are hiding a LOT of STC's for themselves. The Nephilim, the Talon and rumored that they even have Jetbike STC ( giving the number of times the JEtbike was lost and every time a new one appeared ).

I wish they shared that last one. Astartes-piloted Jetbikes for all Chapters should give the pointy-ears some food for thought to say the least.

Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle...Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes.

The Dark Angels are still unofficially Legiones Astartes as opposed to Adeptus Astartes, as all their Successor Chapters aren't treated as independent entities by the Dark Angels but as extensions of their order.

Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

If the High Lords already have a 'soft spot' for the Dark Angels, it wouldn't be too hard for them to make room on the council for the Lion to serve as Guilliman's successor as Lord Commander of the Imperium, and I'm sure they'd be open to his suggestions and recommendations, given the Imperium's desperate situation and even more so if he turns the tide at Cadia.

 Lynata wrote:
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

I dont know of any. By way of models though, Scibor Miniatures has several that would work great for Primarchs (coincidence? hmmmm). There are great models for Sanguinius, Guilliman, Lion El'Jonson and Leman Russ.

On the fallen 'hiding in plain sight' - One of the wolves books actually has a member of the fallen as a villain.



Sons of Fenris - Lee Lightner
http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/sons-of-fenris-ebook.html

The Lion coming back would be sweet, I always though it was stupid that half the surviving loyalist primarchs just decided to go run and hide in a corner

Interesting to see that the Imperium might be getting a Primarch helping them out in the "present;" whether this gets taken any further by GW is another matter. If so, I wonder if there would be measures to bring in the rules for Primarchs from the FW books (assuming they are going to eventually receive TT profiles)? Failing that, it'd be good if BL was used as the means to carry the storyline on into M42 in a big way.

Time to speculate wildly - if the Lion returns he could even end up setting up a kind of second Ultramar with his Chapter and if he doesn't approve of what's been done with the Imperium, they could attempt to split from it altogether. After all, if entire planets and IG regiments can be corrupted by Chaos, I don't see any reason to think that a Loyalist Primarch would have trouble picking up followers. Of course there would also be plenty who accused him of being an imposter - it could even lead to civil war if handled badly...

2013/01/21 08:47:00 Subject: Re:New and interesting things I noticed in Dark Angels fluff.
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

MunGo_0600 wrote:

2013/01/21 08:47:00 Subject: Re:New and interesting things I noticed in Dark Angels fluff.
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

Also, they've said they're going to do a model of the Emperor, so that hopefully means rules for him too.

I love the idea of the Primarchs returning, even if it is just one. That's exactly what the setting needs to shake things up and keep it from stagnating.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

MunGo_0600 wrote:

2013/01/21 08:47:00 Subject: Re:New and interesting things I noticed in Dark Angels fluff.
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

Also, they've said they're going to do a model of the Emperor, so that hopefully means rules for him too.

I love the idea of the Primarchs returning, even if it is just one. That's exactly what the setting needs to shake things up and keep it from stagnating.

Primarchs suck and, as the dominant faction within the setting, the imperium already has enough "help". If they want to shake up the setting then expanding on the Night of a Thousand rebellions
might be a much more interesting scenario then yet another, geographicaly limited Black Crusade or the return of one of the lost Marty Stues.

Depends on the Primarch. Russ and Guilliman most definitely do not suck. The enemies of man beware if Russ comes back first and becomes Lord Commander of the Imperium.

MunGo_0600 wrote:Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

Do you happen to recall the Codex name or WD issue number?
Might be something to add to my list of resources. :3

MandalorynOranj wrote:Also, they've said they're going to do a model of the Emperor, so that hopefully means rules for him too.

wat

Fezman wrote:Interesting to see that the Imperium might be getting a Primarch helping them out in the "present;" whether this gets taken any further by GW is another matter.

The setting is "stuck" at 999.M41 since about 25 years. GW has been adding details (perhaps too many), but has been fairly adamant about refraining from any progress past the "5 minutes before midnight" theme.
The only new thing (at least to me - maybe I just missed an earlier source) would be the Rock actually being mobile and moving (through the Warp?!) towards the Gateway sector. Even if it ever gets there, Jonson will still be stuck in stasis, although I'd certainly see an option for some sort of event triggering his release. Hypothetically speaking.

 Lynata wrote:

The only new thing (at least to me - maybe I just missed an earlier source) would be the Rock actually being mobile and moving (through the Warp?!) towards the Gateway sector.

They could have configured the Rock to Ramilies-class standards.

Even if it ever gets there, Jonson will still be stuck in stasis, although I'd certainly see an option for some sort of event triggering his release. Hypothetically speaking.

If he does wake up, Abaddon's in for a good old-fashioned butt kicking

It would be cool if they brought one of the daemon primarchs into the fold too, possibly Perturabo so he and the Lion could have at it over him tricking the lion into the giant siege guns during the heresy

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

If the High Lords already have a 'soft spot' for the Dark Angels, it wouldn't be too hard for them to make room on the council for the Lion to serve as Guilliman's successor as Lord Commander of the Imperium, and I'm sure they'd be open to his suggestions and recommendations, given the Imperium's desperate situation and even more so if he turns the tide at Cadia.

Lion elJonson comes from a time when the Emperor was still alive.

- This puts a target on his back and an enormous price on his head by both the mechanicus and the high lords.

I can pretty much guarantee that the high lords of terra would not be at all open to the Lion's suggestions. In fact, they would probably try to have him killed before he could spread around the info that the Emperor is not a god, and never wanted toe imperium to go the way it has. The Lion would explain about computers, and how machines are not full of "spirits" and how the machines and the Emperor should not be worshiped.

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

 Lynata wrote:

MunGo_0600 wrote:Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

Do you happen to recall the Codex name or WD issue number?
Might be something to add to my list of resources. :3

MandalorynOranj wrote:Also, they've said they're going to do a model of the Emperor, so that hopefully means rules for him too.

wat

You're a bit out of the loop, it seems.

Forge World is tackling the Horus Heresy. HH1: Betrayal came out last year, and covered the Isstvaan III incident. Mortarion, Horus, Angron, and Fulgrim were given stats. FW has also said that they'll be doing stats and a model for the Emperor, eventually.

HH2 and 3 will cover the drop site massacre. No other books have been announced, yet.

They're making an entire line of models to support it, including Primarchs.