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Hi guys, sorry if this has been brought up before but the browsers where I work are terrible and half of the functions of this site do not work(its my works fault, security side of things disable alot of browser stuff).

I have checked the FAQ and in the RB, Death Ray says mark a point, roll 3d6 and draw a line between the 2 points, does the first point have to start over a model or can it be beside one and then go over models from there?

Also, if the answer to my question is that you don't have to start it on a model, then can you fire it over a unit in melee combat, because technically you are not targeting a unit in melee. The main reason I question this and don't go by the rule where you cannot fire into close combat, is because you are not actually shooting at a model, you are firing a line between 2 points and anything(friend or foe) under it is hit. The only way I can see you hitting your own men with that weapon is if they are locked into melee combat and you want to kill something that is tieing up a unit of yours. Otherwise, what would be the point in putting the friend or foe part in?

Just need some clarification, otherwise, I need to adjust tactics. I played a game last night, and I did ask the other player, and he went with you can because you aren't targeting the unit itself, but I would like clarification for future fights so we dont have to stand there scratching our heads going,"wtf, is it actually possible" because with the way the rules are written in the codex, I cannot see why you couldnt do that. Please correct me if im wrong. Would of won the game regardless, but just nice to know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add to that, I also ask this question because if you use a blast or LB template, and it scatters onto a unit locked in melee combat, it still hits.

The point is placed within the arc of fire for the Death ray and no more than 12in away, the only restricting to this is should you choose to fire your Tesla Destructor's you have to fire them at a valid target that was hit by the death ray.

I think you will find many people that will challenge the idea of drawing the line through an active assault even though you are not directly targeting it.

Other than that there is no restriction to whether you target a model or not when you first fire the Death ray.

Hi and thanks, thats what we thought and I did ask the other player if he was ok with it and he was because of the the RAW states it so, if a player had an issue, i wouldn't do it, but as RAW, i can't see why.

Also, just so I am understanding the death ray completly. Does it act like a template, in that any model under the line is automatically hit or do I still need to roll to hit on BS for that?

BLADERIKER wrote:
The point is placed within the arc of fire for the Death ray and no more than 12in away, the only restricting to this is should you choose to fire your Tesla Destructor's you have to fire them at a valid target that was hit by the death ray.

I think you will find many people that will challenge the idea of drawing the line through an active assault even though you are not directly targeting it.

Other than that there is no restriction to whether you target a model or not when you first fire the Death ray.

You can definitely draw through an active assault. The Death from the skies makes it pretty clear you can even draw it through your own models. It seems based on the quote below it does not suffer any "targeting restrictions" because you target a point on the ground not a unit.

"Then, draw a straight line (considered to be l mm wide) between the two points, Every unit. (friendly or enemy, but excluding Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures)"

Saltis any model under the line is auto hit so you dont have to roll to hit them, just to wound, the BS is only used for the TL Tesla Destructor.

Thanks for the reply guys and clarification, i must have missed the death from the skies thing, we had already played like that, i just wanted clarification incase I get any arguments when I try it in future. The help is much appreciated from a fellow overlord!

What about multi level areas? I fired my Death Ray last night and they said i had to choose a level. What do others think?

 Mythra wrote:
What about multi level areas? I fired my Death Ray last night and they said i had to choose a level. What do others think?

I would have thought that it wouldnt make a different unless ur talking about a building, in which case, then going straight down, as long as you can make the distance is ok to touch each of the models? I leave that as a question because its equally confusing, it says 2 points on the table, if a level is on the table, then it should be able to shoot at. Going on what people have said previously in here would state that it can fire on multiple levels as long as your dice rolls meet the range you need.

Wow that does sound right.

Death ray is specifically models under the line. As it is written now. I would say it hits all levels.

Ok.

The point you choose can be anywhere in the weapons range, so it's front 45 degree arc, but you can only kill things within the 45 degree arc in front of the gun, so it's a moot point.

You cannot fire into melee, it's a BRB rule, the only way to do it is if a special rule says you can, or you scatter into melee.

Finally regarding ruins, the rule tells you to choose a point on the battlefield, not a point above the battlefield, so you RAW cannot hit things in ruins, though few people would argue you can't choose a level and only hit that level.

 juraigamer wrote:
Ok.

The point you choose can be anywhere in the weapons range, so it's front 45 degree arc, but you can only kill things within the 45 degree arc in front of the gun, so it's a moot point.

You cannot fire into melee, it's a BRB rule, the only way to do it is if a special rule says you can, or you scatter into melee.

Finally regarding ruins, the rule tells you to choose a point on the battlefield, not a point above the battlefield, so you RAW cannot hit things in ruins, though few people would argue you can't choose a level and only hit that level.

First point you can kill anything in LOS, the 45 degree arc only matters for targeting. There is debate about if LOS is front arc or 360.

Second point you aren't firing into combat - this seems to be a big mental block for people that don't like that the deathray can razor models in a combat.

Read Death form the skies Death Ray entry regarding your final point your interpretation is wrong.

Please provide rules citations as to why your points are anything other than opinions.

1: You can only kill things in your LOS, and a vehicles los with the weapon in question is 45 degrees, while you could draw a perpendicular line from the vehicle, you can only hit things in the area.

2: You cannot fire into melee, unless it's accidental through scatter or you have a rule stating you can. Using the death ray is firing a ranged weapon.

3: The doom scythe death ray creates a 1 mm thick line between two points on the battlefield, IE on the table.

 juraigamer wrote:
Please provide rules citations as to why your points are anything other than opinions.

1: You can only kill things in your LOS, and a vehicles los with the weapon in question is 45 degrees, while you could draw a perpendicular line from the vehicle, you can only hit things in the area.

2: You cannot fire into melee, unless it's accidental through scatter or you have a rule stating you can. Using the death ray is firing a ranged weapon.

3: The doom scythe death ray creates a 1 mm thick line between two points on the battlefield, IE on the table.

To further your #3 point. I believe it's the general consensus, maybe even FAQ'd, I can't remember, that JoTWW(which also draws a line along the table) cannot hit models on upper levels of ruins.

But you're #2 is wrong. You can't target units in CC, and death ray doesn't target units just a point on the ground. I don't like it but it's legal.

Caboose

It seems neither of you have access to Death from the skies to read the new wording of death ray.

1. you maybe right since its on a vehicle.
2. you clearly don't understand the rules. Its not targeting anything in close combat and thus not breaking the rules. You are not allowed to target your own models either but death ray sites you hit your own models in the current wording. Deathray can be run through a close combat as well as friendly models. It is unique in that. Like I said you seem to have a mental block as to what is and isn't targeted. Death Ray does not target models it targets points.
3. again wording in death from the skies.

I would like to post the full rule of death from the skies so you can read it and understand why you are wrong, but i think the forum prohibits more than just snippets.

tgf wrote:
It seems neither of you have access to Death from the skies to read the new wording of death ray.

1. you maybe right since its on a vehicle.
2. you clearly don't understand the rules. Its not targeting anything in close combat and thus not breaking the rules. You are not allowed to target your own models either but death ray sites you hit your own models in the current wording. Deathray can be run through a close combat as well as friendly models. It is unique in that. Like I said you seem to have a mental block as to what is and isn't targeted. Death Ray does not target models it targets points.
3. again wording in death from the skies.

I would like to post the full rule of death from the skies so you can read it and understand why you are wrong, but i think the forum prohibits more than just snippets.

1. Didn't disagree because it's true
2. Made it pretty clear that I agreed death ray can go through units in CC.
3. Don't have Death from the Skies, but it wouldn't surprise me if it said they can hit units on different levels based on GW's recent love for Necrons.

Death from the skies doesn't change a thing. The guns range is 12, still a 45 degree arc in front of the weapon. The starting point must be in this zone, the other one doesn't have to be.

With regards to the firing into melee aspect, yet again you are using a ranged weapon that is having it's line purposefully drawn over units in melee, making such a line illegal.

The bloodly text says "To fire the death ray" meaning it's clearly a ranged weapon just from that. A ranged weapon that doesn't have expressive permission to hit targets in melee.

tgf wrote:

You can definitely draw through an active assault. The Death from the skies makes it pretty clear you can even draw it through your own models. It seems based on the quote below it does not suffer any "targeting restrictions" because you target a point on the ground not a unit.

"Then, draw a straight line (considered to be l mm wide) between the two points, Every unit. (friendly or enemy, but excluding Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures)"

This is a hard one. On the one hand the rule above does not explicitly mention anything about overriding the restrictions on firing in assaults. On the other it does say "every unit" which could be taken to mean it does override it.

If we do allow it to fire into an assault then I'd say both units involved would have to take a hit.

juraigmamer you are going to have to go read your rules, but deathray hits stuff in close combat there is not rule that requires a ranged weapon to have permission to hit, only to target. Go read your rules and stop being circular.

Off the top of my head:
Blood Lance - specifically states it cannot hit units locked in cc.
Vibro Cannon - FAQ'd to be able to hit units locked in cc.
JotWW - does not specify either way.

Therefore we have precedence for being able to hit units locked in cc unless specifically stated otherwise. Or at least that is how I read it.

I appreciate all the replys and I am taking all on board. This is the main reason why I brought this up, because due to RAW, I am not TARGETING a model in CC, I am firing between 2 points and as it happens, yes, there are enemy models there.

Clively - On your point, its only models under the line that get hit, so if I could position the line in a way that my models don't get hit, then it wouldn't hit them.

If I had an enemy model and I have surrounded it, and then I fire the death ray over and hit some of my own models, essentially sacrificing some of my own models to hit it. That would be the only way to hit my own models.

You can definitely draw it through your own models.

TGF, go ahead and quote the revised text from DFTS. We don't permit quoting wholesale from books, but quoting the relevant section to allow discussion is permissible and counts as Fair Use.

As if that would help us with anything, but the quote is:
"Every unit (friendly or enemy, but excluding Zooming Flyers and Swooping MC's) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models underneath the line in that unit."

Fact: You cannot shoot at units in Close Combat.
What does 'shoot at' mean?
Is it the intent of harming them?
Is is the act of targeting them?
Is it hitting or wounding the targets with a shooting attack?

Fact: You nominate two points and draw a line between them.
Does this line "count" as a template?
Are the units under the line considered as targeted?



In my opinion you are not allowed to target models locked in CC.
The Ray targets two points and draws a line between 'em, so it doesn't target any model.
Therefore you can use the Death Ray on units in melee.

I thought the fact was you cannot target units in CC. As you definitely can shoot at units albeit accidentally via scattering at least.

Regardless of that though I don't see any RAW preventing.

You can't target units in cc with a shooting attack. There are also specific additional provisions on blast markers and templates that you can't place them so that they cover any models in cc; although blasts are allowed to scatter there.

There does not appear to be any prohibition on Death Ray into cc, as it apparently doesn't target the models it covers (hence why you can cross/kill your own models with it).

Bear in mind, however, that the TL Tesla Destructor does need to target, and can only shoot at one of the units crossed by the line, so if you don't want to waste those shots, you want to try to make sure the line crosses at least one unengaged enemy unit.

Ray: To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the
battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then
nominate a second point within 3D6" of the first. Then,
draw a straight line (considered to be l mm wide) between
the two points, Every unit. (friendly or enemy, but excluding
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures)
underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the
number of models underneath the line in that unit. If the
vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase,
it must be fired at. one of the units hit by the death ray.

Another reason to believe you can hit models in CC intentionally with this weapon is the fact that there is no scatter yet it still includes a clause for hitting your own models indicating you can deliberately draw the line through your own units and CC without breaking any targeting rules.

The second point is that is specifies models underneath the line and is not specifically a template weapon. This is why I believe if you draw it across a multi-level ruin you may be able to hit models standing vertically aligned.

I think it can't hit units on upper floors, personally. Or maybe just on one selected floor. It does say units under the line, and it also specifies that the line's a line, a mm wide. Treating it as a plane infinitely high seems wrong to me.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I think it can't hit units on upper floors, personally. Or maybe just on one selected floor. It does say units under the line, and it also specifies that the line's a line, a mm wide. Treating it as a plane infinitely high seems wrong to me.

Could easily be run that way I would not object to either interpretation on that particular point of the weapons effects.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I think it can't hit units on upper floors, personally. Or maybe just on one selected floor. It does say units under the line, and it also specifies that the line's a line, a mm wide. Treating it as a plane infinitely high seems wrong to me.

I would agree, except it says select the first point ON the battlefield, and then select a second and draw a line between them. So, if you roll 9 inches, and have that second point in the air above 2 levels of ruins, as long as your line is only a total of 9 inches, then everything -under- the line is hit. One way, RAW, to handle that. But having your line go from the board up into the air eats up that distance.

I don't run dooms, so I haven't gamed this before...