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I really like alot of the rules they have for all the armies, but each and everyone is OP compared to the GW counterparts. It's like homebrew deathstar factories. What, if anything, do you see as the drawback to using FW models?

The way I see it, it can only be a far match if both sides have an alotment of pts to spend of FW models like flying avatars or Tunneling Tyrannid D-Cannon Tanks or whatever.

Have you used FW against a "vanilla" army and had them under-perform?

Most gamers don't even use fully FW models, in fact, it's just usually conversion kits and stuff for fluff, but as far as I'm concerned, if they want to use a FW army, then it's just something different for me to steamroll with my IG

cod3x wrote:
I really like alot of the rules they have for all the armies, but each and everyone is OP compared to the GW counterparts. It's like homebrew deathstar factories.

I haven't had this experience at all, actually. There are a few models that are certainly powerful (Sabre Platforms for IG, Contemptor Dreadnoughts with Kheres Assault Cannons, and Lucious Pattern Drop Pods), but most of the units from IA books have higher point costs than comparable units from codices.

The IA army lists are generally worse than what you could make if you ran allies together. For example, I could make a better Tyrant's list using the IG codex for allies and the Space Marine book as the primary, than I could with the rules in Imperial Armor 9. Same for the renegade lists in IA: 5-7 versus what Chaos Space Marines + IG allies could field.

Is someone in your area dominating the store games or tournaments with Forge World lists?

cod3x wrote:
I really like alot of the rules they have for all the armies, but each and everyone is OP compared to the GW counterparts. It's like homebrew deathstar factories.

Nope. You're flat-out wrong. Maybe you should try and read a few more FW rules before attempting to make sweeping statements about them.

Have you used FW against a "vanilla" army and had them under-perform?

Yeah, that's called the general FW experience, barring a few outliers.

Until 6th, few were actually overpowered. The advent of fliers and new artillery rules is what set many of the previously mediocre units into the overpowered category.

Most FW units are UP. Most FW armies are very UP. However, there are a few standouts, mostly given to Guard, Orks, Eldar, and now crons.

Really FW needs to start producing books that arent just guard vs someone. The huge number of guard vs someone books makes the rest of the factions see so few units that they are nearly unrepresented. Most marine factions have 2-3 units and maybe a new named character. Tau have only a few units, most of them bad or mediocre. DE have almost nothing. Chaos has some variants of loyalist stuff, but most of it is bad or mediocre. Very little unique material. Crons just saw an much needed FW update, so they are at least off the list.

I would like to see something like a tyranid invasion catalyzing almost every race into a fight for survival in a sector. You could bring out some of the less used weapons of each race and such. It would be like another Apoc book, but would have a story for each race and would focus on filling out some of the other factions besides guard with new toys.


Mostly i dont think that you need x points for FW, i think you need a more balanced representation of each race in FW. I would like to see things like the vulture, Heavy artillery, and Sabre platforms toned back (make all the arty T5, return the vulture to its old AV11 and removed vector dancer), the Warp hunter upped in cost (150 seems about right, especially with a new codex), and the anthracite reduced to AP2 on its cannon. Other than that, i think almost every FW entry is good.

I find after playing hundreds of games over a few years the game gets stale playing the same armies over and over. Codexes have certain builds that will be more common and successful than others. FW tries to add some variety. I wish some of the units were synergistic rather than powerful on their own, but i can understand the reluctance to do that with an edition update possible to make support units pretty broken if the new rules allow.

Most Forgeworld units are "oh, that's cool" variations on GW units with different rules and a high points cost. They're about as well balanced as anything from GW prime.

cod3x wrote:
It's like homebrew deathstar factories.

This is hilarious - most FW units are mediocre to terrible. Show me a single IG flyer that's even close to as good as the ones in the codex.

There is the occasional really good unit slipped it but it generally gets nerfed to hell at the next update.

cod3x wrote:
I really like alot of the rules they have for all the armies, but each and everyone is OP compared to the GW counterparts.

Huh? are we reading the same rules? Most of their units are thoroughly mediocre at best.

What, if anything, do you see as the drawback to using FW models?

Most of their rules are actually quite tame, often intentionally overcosted, plus the models themselves and the books are expensive. Some people don't like FW just for its own sake.

The way I see it, it can only be a far match if both sides have an alotment of pts to spend of FW models like flying avatars or Tunneling Tyrannid D-Cannon Tanks or whatever.

Methinks you need to sit down with an Imperial Armour book and read the whole thing, and then compare it to an actual codex, you'll find they aren't any different in power level.

Have you used FW against a "vanilla" army and had them under-perform?

yes, and until very recently FW units were typically very intentionally overcosted to avoid the perception you have. My DKoK routinely fail to match the potential offered by a vanilla IG army.

Scott-S6 wrote:

There is the occasional really good unit slipped it but it generally gets nerfed to hell at the next update.

This, most of FW's units that have ever really been "busted" got fixed into night uselessness, a prime example being the Hades Breaching Drill.

The last thread involved people trying to justify how a land raider with four twin linked lascannons and 'immunity to melta was not overpowered. That and drop pods that allow dreadnaughts to assault out of deep strike, ig artillery carriage madness, etc.

Bottom line is, I'm fine with forgeworld so long as its cool or fluffy,.but I won't play with op models.

To be fair, it's about the only way dreads will see combat in 6th edition and the immobile artilllery carriages are Ld7 and T3 5+sv in combat, there's definitely some room for discussion on such things.

 BryllCream wrote:
The last thread involved people trying to justify how a land raider with four twin linked lascannons and 'immunity to melta was not overpowered. That and drop pods that allow dreadnaughts to assault out of deep strike, ig artillery carriage madness, etc.

Bottom line is, I'm fine with forgeworld so long as its cool or fluffy,.but I won't play with op models.

The Spartan Assault Tank is 300 points, and being immune to Melta, does not mean it's immune to Armorbane. It's far from OP.

 BryllCream wrote:
The last thread involved people trying to justify how a land raider with four twin linked lascannons and 'immunity to melta was not overpowered. That and drop pods that allow dreadnaughts to assault out of deep strike, ig artillery carriage madness, etc.

I've never seen any of those models used and my group plays with a decent amount of Forge World.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This, most of FW's units that have ever really been "busted" got fixed into night uselessness, a prime example being the Hades Breaching Drill.

That was a good example of a 50 point (I think) model that needed a nerf, though.

The problem was that it became unusable and simply far too dangerous to use effectively.

I don't disagree that it went too far, but it was broken, as it was.

There are some units that are good in some ways but bad in others in FW stuff. Things that are fun to bring for plain shenanigans but really nothing that i bring for serious play. Like for tyranids. Its fun to bring a malanthrope or a stone crusher carnifex because they look awesome. Same with Tau turrets, or stealth drones. They look neat but really underperform for what they cost. Now the barricuda to me is better than the new tau flyers and i still bring it rather then use the newer ones. But its all whatever you like to bring really to me. If someone spends $1000 on FW models then Im not going to say no you cant use them. Makes for a more fun and interesting game to me and makes for a much cooler looking battle thats different.

We've got a guy at my store who uses IG vultures rather then using the Valkyries or Vendettas. Its shenanigans but whatever. We got a dude who also uses the storm eagle and land raider Proteus for his CSM. Big points dump so the rest of his army suffers. But that storm eagle is a flying land raider nearly. Nasty. But cool looking model. Proteus has neat rules that it does so i dont mind much plus he actually bought the model instead of proxying. So good on him. If youre going to use it all the time. Buy the real deal.

Sasori wrote:The Spartan Assault Tank is 300 points, and being immune to Melta, does not mean it's immune to Armorbane. It's far from OP.

315 with the Mela Immunity.

I proxy'd it once in a fun game. Don't forget it is an Assualt Vehichle with a 25 model capacity.

A 10 man squad TAS, Marneus Calgar and Chaplin in 2+ and transport .... 1135 points
The look on your opponent's face when you charge his "invincible deathstar" .... priceless

foolishmortal wrote:

Sasori wrote:The Spartan Assault Tank is 300 points, and being immune to Melta, does not mean it's immune to Armorbane. It's far from OP.

315 with the Mela Immunity.

I proxy'd it once in a fun game. Don't forget it is an Assualt Vehichle with a 25 model capacity.

A 10 man squad TAS, Marneus Calgar and Chaplin in 2+ and transport .... 1135 points
The look on your opponent's face when you charge his "invincible deathstar" .... priceless

I didn't realize you had to pay for the anti-Melta upgrade, makes it even more expensive haha.

 BryllCream wrote:
The last thread involved people trying to justify how a land raider with four twin linked lascannons and 'immunity to melta was not overpowered.

Easily. It costs 99999999999999 points once you put a unit inside it, and can be dealt with like every other death star unit that kills everything it targets: feed it expendable stuff all game, focus on the weak remaining part of the army, and win the objectives. Once you consider how much you're paying for the whole thing you realize that the LR Spartan really isn't that good.

(Sure, it's better than a basic LR, but that's mostly because the basic LR is a terrible unit.)

That and drop pods that allow dreadnaughts to assault out of deep strike, ig artillery carriage madness, etc.

Let's not forget that most of that is GW's utter stupidity with the artillery rules in 6th. Those overpowered artillery units were mediocre at best in 5th, and their changes for 6th edition are just the bare minimum required to make them function under 6th edition's rules. So you can't really blame FW for that.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
This is hilarious - most FW units are mediocre to terrible. Show me a single IG flyer that's even close to as good as the ones in the codex.

To be fair, after years of trying they've finally made the Vulture (with some weapon choices) almost as good as the Vendetta. I can now use my Vultures without feeling like I'm completely throwing away all hope of winning by not taking Vendettas.

 Sasori wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:

Sasori wrote:The Spartan Assault Tank is 300 points, and being immune to Melta, does not mean it's immune to Armorbane. It's far from OP.

315 with the Mela Immunity.

I proxy'd it once in a fun game. Don't forget it is an Assualt Vehichle with a 25 model capacity.

A 10 man squad TAS, Marneus Calgar and Chaplin in 2+ and transport .... 1135 points
The look on your opponent's face when you charge his "invincible deathstar" .... priceless

I didn't realize you had to pay for the anti-Melta upgrade, makes it even more expensive haha.

Right. 15 points to make it immune to the only Imperial (about 80% of armies) weapon that can hurt it. It is clearly OP.

 BryllCream wrote:
Right. 15 points to make it immune to the only Imperial (about 80% of armies) weapon that can hurt it. It is clearly OP.

1) It's not the only weapon. Lascannons, power fists, dreadnoughts, Manticores/Vanquishers/Medusas/etc, can all hurt it. Melta is the most consistent way of dealing with AV 14, but even for Imperial armies it isn't the only option.

2) You can't just look at the price of the upgrade without any context. 15 points to make a Leman Russ immune to melta would be way too cheap. 15 points to make a tank that is already massively overpriced immune to melta still gives you a tank that is massively overpriced.

I love how you'll gladly ignore what everyone has pointed out in favour of your anti-FW rhetoric. 315pts for 4 twinlinked LCs? Not really that great considering 2 must shoot at a separate target and therefore waste the other gun.
As has been pointed out, it's damage to cost ratio is awful and once you put something in there it gets even worse.

Blaming FW for artillery carriages is ridiculous. It's the 40K rule book which updated them to the "over-powered" nature you believe them to be.

Well,
I have played a FW army against a Codex army and I smoked the guy...

I played a Corsair list against Necrons.... At the end of turn 6 all he had left was a Ghost Ark and 7 warriors and a cryptek.
My dead pool was a hand full of Corsairs and a Warp Hunter.

The Corsair list is DEFINITLY OP....

I played the same list against a Chaos Player using the new 6th ed codex and SMOKED him too...
I gave the same Chaos player 500 pts extra and SMOKED him AGAIN.

O_o in what way is the Corsair list in any way OP?

 Peregrine wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
Right. 15 points to make it immune to the only Imperial (about 80% of armies) weapon that can hurt it. It is clearly OP.

1) It's not the only weapon. Lascannons, power fists, dreadnoughts, Manticores/Vanquishers/Medusas/etc, can all hurt it. Melta is the most consistent way of dealing with AV 14, but even for Imperial armies it isn't the only option.

I've probably played a couple dozen games with/against Land Raiders. I don't think lascannons or power fists have ever killed any. As far as I'm concerned, and as far as convention on list building goes, no melta = no anti AV 14 and an instant loss against anyone with a Land Raider.

2) You can't just look at the price of the upgrade without any context. 15 points to make a Leman Russ immune to melta would be way too cheap. 15 points to make a tank that is already massively overpriced immune to melta still gives you a tank that is massively overpriced.

Well, I think 315 points for a Land Raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons that is immune to melta guns is a steal. I accept that not everyone will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I love how you'll gladly ignore what everyone has pointed out in favour of your anti-FW rhetoric. 315pts for 4 twinlinked LCs? Not really that great considering 2 must shoot at a separate target and therefore waste the other gun.
As has been pointed out, it's damage to cost ratio is awful and once you put something in there it gets even worse.

I'm not anti-FW I'm anti-OP units. And its damage to cost ratio isn't that bad. Assuming it manages to pop a chimera each turn (3.5 hits, 2.3 hull points so easily doable) then it will do so. If it's against terminators, necron vehicles, anything AV 10/11/12, it will make its points back.

And that's before whatever inside runs out and smashes face.

Blaming FW for artillery carriages is ridiculous. It's the 40K rule book which updated them to the "over-powered" nature you believe them to be.

I wasn't "blaming" FW for anything. The fact that GW wrote the rule doesn't mean artillery is any less OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
O_o in what way is the Corsair list in any way OP?

It's not. It is, if anything, weaker than the Eldar Codex.

Hello???
Have you looked at it???
Warp hunter has a 5" D-cannon....that can be used in Torrent mode.
Hello??
The Corsairs have 24" rapid fire lasblasters and come with jet packs...move 6, shoot at 24" and then move back behind cover at 2d6" assault move.
And BTW...I saw your post on one of the other threads about what you like and dont like about 6th...From the hate you exhibited on that thread for 40k, Whats it matter to you anyway? -- Vaktathi

 BryllCream wrote:
I've probably played a couple dozen games with/against Land Raiders. I don't think lascannons or power fists have ever killed any. As far as I'm concerned, and as far as convention on list building goes, no melta = no anti AV 14 and an instant loss against anyone with a Land Raider.

So because you have awful "conventions" about list building a unit is overpowered?

Well, I think 315 points for a Land Raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons that is immune to melta guns is a steal. I accept that not everyone will.

You know, that's almost as good as the six TL LCs (total of 4.5 hits to 3.5 hits for the Spartan) a Vendetta squadron (immune to most melta by being more than 6" away and needing 6s to hit) can bring for 50 points less. Or the two TL LCs and four normal LCs a pair of Predators can bring. The Spartan's firepower only looks good because the basic Land Raider's firepower is such a complete joke.

Also, the tank is 315 points, but only if you ignore its transport capacity. If you instead consider the typical unit that would use one you're talking about a 500-1000 point death star, and suddenly melta immunity becomes a lot less relevant since you can deal with it like every other death star by feeding it meatshields every turn and otherwise ignoring it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Warp hunter has a 5" D-cannon....that can be used in Torrent mode.

So what? Ever seen a demolisher cannon?

The Corsairs have 24" rapid fire lasblasters and come with jet packs...move 6, shoot at 24" and then move back behind cover at 2d6" assault move.

Wow, how amazingly overpowered. I don't know how I could ever deal with JSJ lasguns.

If you want to see good JSJ units look at Tau, which get tougher units with much better guns.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I've probably played a couple dozen games with/against Land Raiders. I don't think lascannons or power fists have ever killed any. As far as I'm concerned, and as far as convention on list building goes, no melta = no anti AV 14 and an instant loss against anyone with a Land Raider.

So because you have awful "conventions" about list building a unit is overpowered?

So...if you made a space marine/imperial guard army...you wouldn't include melta? The only real alternative would be allied lances.

You know, that's almost as good as the six TL LCs (total of 4.5 hits to 3.5 hits for the Spartan) a Vendetta squadron (immune to most melta by being more than 6" away and needing 6s to hit) can bring for 50 points less. Or the two TL LCs and four normal LCs a pair of Predators can bring. The Spartan's firepower only looks good because the basic Land Raider's firepower is such a complete joke.

Yes, Vendettas are broken OP, definitely more OP than the Spartan.

And the Predators are AV 13/11/10. You can't compare that to a 14/14/14.

Also, the tank is 315 points, but only if you ignore its transport capacity. If you instead consider the typical unit that would use one you're talking about a 500-1000 point death star, and suddenly melta immunity becomes a lot less relevant since you can deal with it like every other death star by feeding it meatshields every turn and otherwise ignoring it.

It's easy to billitle it if you assume i'd stick a deathstar in it. Assume a load of other stuff too if it helps.

 BryllCream wrote:
So...if you made a space marine/imperial guard army...you wouldn't include melta? The only real alternative would be allied lances.

No, you're missing the point entirely. Melta is a good way of dealing with AV 14, and you want to have it. But it isn't the only way.

Yes, Vendettas are broken OP, definitely more OP than the Spartan.

So we've answered the question then: FW produce some arguably-overpowered units, but they're no worse than codex balance.

And the Predators are AV 13/11/10. You can't compare that to a 14/14/14.

Sure I can. They're only AV 13, but they have more HP, are smaller models (easier cover) and are two separate units. AV 14 is just one method of protecting a unit, it's not some magical quality that can only be compared to other AV 14 units.

It's easy to billitle it if you assume i'd stick a deathstar in it. Assume a load of other stuff too if it helps.

With anything but a death star you're overpaying for that huge transport capacity.

BryllCream wrote:
I've probably played a couple dozen games with/against Land Raiders. I don't think lascannons or power fists have ever killed any. As far as I'm concerned, and as far as convention on list building goes, no melta = no anti AV 14 and an instant loss against anyone with a Land Raider.

Melta is simply the EZ-MODE Anti-AV14, it is by no means essential to removing AV14, especially in the era of Hull Points, it's merely the "point click remove" option. If one is utterly and completely unable to deal with AV14 without melta, something has gone wrong, especially (as is almost certainly to be the case) if it's just a single AV14 vehicle.

Now if we were talking about the first iteration of the LR Achilles at its original cost with its original rules, I'd agree, completely broken, but this isn't the same thing. Is it *good*? Yes, but I don't think broken at 300somethingpoints.

Well, I think 315 points for a Land Raider with 4 twin-linked lascannons that is immune to melta guns is a steal. I accept that not everyone will.

It's good, but it's a lot of eggs in one basket, in a unit that often will be moving such that it is unable to fully utilize such weapons to deliver its cargo to a target. Between the tank and its occupants, you're generally looking at a third to over half a players army in that basket.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
So...if you made a space marine/imperial guard army...you wouldn't include melta? The only real alternative would be allied lances.

No, you're missing the point entirely. Melta is a good way of dealing with AV 14, and you want to have it. But it isn't the only way.

No I'm intrigued. You refuted that the Spartan was immune to anti-AV14, and I want you to show me how an Imperial player could destroy it with shooting inside a reasonable time frame.

Otherwise I can comfortable say that the Spartan Assault Tank is immune to shooting.

So we've answered the question then: FW produce some arguably-overpowered units, but they're no worse than codex balance.

Keep repeating it like it means something

Sure I can. They're only AV 13, but they have more HP, are smaller models (easier cover) and are two separate units. AV 14 is just one method of protecting a unit, it's not some magical quality that can only be compared to other AV 14 units.

Yeah, two vehicles with side 11 are just as durable as an AV 14 that is, as we have established, immune to shooting.

With anything but a death star you're overpaying for that huge transport capacity.

No. I'm paying 75 points for a twin-linked BS4 lascannon on an indestructable chassis. The fact that it can carry units is a bonus. Personally I'd stick a barebones terminator squad with lightening claws inside.