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Ok so during the rumours and now certainly post codex release - one of the new borderline gimmick ideas is to attach Illic Nightspear to a unit of 10 Wraithguard all with D-scythes. Deploy said flamer squad using Illic's infiltrate USR and his "ignore the usual restrictions of infiltrate" boon to drop the 10 guard right in front of your enemy. Apply 10 D-scythes to the enemies face turn 1.

Aside from this being a quite expensive 560 point gimmick there has started to be some discussion between the Eldar players in my local meta as well as the GW store manager who is also quite fond of our pointy eared space elves and we came to the following conclusion:

Illic's rule Walker of the Hidden Path as stated on P.55 of the Eldar codex under his personal entry:
"Illic Nightspear has the Infiltrate special rule, and can be deployed anywhere on the battlefield that is outside of impassable terrain, regardless of enemy proximity."

The Walker of the Hidden Path rule is not a USR and comes in 3 parts (part 3 not quoted as it is not part of the issue):
1. Confers Infiltrate USR to himself and under the USR rules, to his unit.
2. Ignores USR's restrictions as mentioned in the BRB
3. Pathfiners/Rangers can outflank deepstrike next to him without scatter

The interpretation of this back in Adelaide is that RAW; if attached to another unit; Part 2 becomes invalid as it is only applied to him in his own rule and not a USR that is conferred to the unit.

Does anyone have anything to the contrary? I'm not sure if the Eldar FAQ/Errata is up in full yet.

syranas wrote:
Ok so during the rumours and now certainly post codex release - one of the new borderline gimmick ideas is to attach Illic Nightspear to a unit of 10 Wraithguard all with D-scythes

Doesn't work (assuming wraithguard don't have infiltrate). You can only attach an IC to a unit by placing it on the table within coherency, or by putting into reserve with the unit. The wraithguard are required to deploy on the table or be committed to reserve before the IC gets a chance to join them, so they can never benefit from his infiltrate rule (other than using it to outflank).

The interpretation of this back in Adelaide is that RAW; if attached to another unit; Part 2 becomes invalid as it is only applied to him in his own rule and not a USR that is conferred to the unit.

This is correct. Only the character gets an exception to the distance requirement, everyone else has to obey it. So you could legally have the unit 18.5" away and the character 17.5" away, but none of the models in the unit can be inside that limit.

 Peregrine wrote:

syranas wrote:
Ok so during the rumours and now certainly post codex release - one of the new borderline gimmick ideas is to attach Illic Nightspear to a unit of 10 Wraithguard all with D-scythes

Doesn't work (assuming wraithguard don't have infiltrate). You can only attach an IC to a unit by placing it on the table within coherency, or by putting into reserve with the unit. The wraithguard are required to deploy on the table or be committed to reserve before the IC gets a chance to join them, so they can never benefit from his infiltrate rule (other than using it to outflank).

Really? I thought that when an IC joined a unit, he conferred Infiltrate on to that unit. Am I just remembering it wrong?

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

syranas wrote:
Ok so during the rumours and now certainly post codex release - one of the new borderline gimmick ideas is to attach Illic Nightspear to a unit of 10 Wraithguard all with D-scythes

Doesn't work (assuming wraithguard don't have infiltrate). You can only attach an IC to a unit by placing it on the table within coherency, or by putting into reserve with the unit. The wraithguard are required to deploy on the table or be committed to reserve before the IC gets a chance to join them, so they can never benefit from his infiltrate rule (other than using it to outflank).

Really? I thought that when an IC joined a unit, he conferred Infiltrate on to that unit. Am I just remembering it wrong?

No you are half right. But the IC doesn't join them until after their chance to infiltrate is gone, so they are already on the board or in reserves. He can join them in reserves to let them outflank (does infiltrate still do that? I forget) but he can't join them and let them infiltrate with him

Ok, I'm glad most people are in agreement with my interpretation. Mainly because I don't want my beloved new codex to turn into a gimmick-fest.

This was also sprouted due to someone suggesting it in the army list section and the start of a debate happening. And deciding to move it to a more appropriate arena.

This is from the main rulebook FAQ, emphasis mine:

Q: If your Warlor’s Warlord Trait confers a specific ability to a unit or units in your army, is this ability always immediately lost when the Warlord is killed? (p111)
A: Yes. Further, if the Warlord Trait conferred a special rule that allows an unusual method of deployment from Reserves (such as conferring Infiltrate to allow a unit to Outflank) that special rule is immediately lost and the unit must deploy from Reserves in the normal fashion.

The way this is worded makes it pretty clear that allowing Outflanking is the only benefit of joining an Infiltrating character to a non-Infiltrating unit. Shame about that, I was looking forward to trying the D-Scythe trick .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Until it is FAQ'd, I'd have to assume that the part about ignoring range restrictions when Infiltrating applies to the whole unit. Why would anyone want to Infiltrate a sniper character close to the enemy? I can see that making sense with Striking Scorpions, since they have Infiltrate base, to set them up in a desirable position, but alone? That's just pointless suicide.

So get your shenanigans in while you can until an FAQ drops!

On the contrary - special rules explicitly do not transfer to the whole unit unless specified. Infiltrate will, but there's zero reason to assume anything else will.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Why would anyone want to Infiltrate a sniper character close to the enemy?

Maybe it's one of those pointless fluff rules. But the rules are perfectly clear that it applies only to the single character model.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
This is from the main rulebook FAQ, emphasis mine:

Q: If your Warlor’s Warlord Trait confers a specific ability to a unit or units in your army, is this ability always immediately lost when the Warlord is killed? (p111)
A: Yes. Further, if the Warlord Trait conferred a special rule that allows an unusual method of deployment from Reserves (such as conferring Infiltrate to allow a unit to Outflank) that special rule is immediately lost and the unit must deploy from Reserves in the normal fashion.

The way this is worded makes it pretty clear that allowing Outflanking is the only benefit of joining an Infiltrating character to a non-Infiltrating unit. Shame about that, I was looking forward to trying the D-Scythe trick .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Until it is FAQ'd, I'd have to assume that the part about ignoring range restrictions when Infiltrating applies to the whole unit. Why would anyone want to Infiltrate a sniper character close to the enemy? I can see that making sense with Striking Scorpions, since they have Infiltrate base, to set them up in a desirable position, but alone? That's just pointless suicide.

That FAQ is irrelevant to the question at hand, because it's specifically about Warlord Traits like the "Give d3 units infiltrate" trait from the Chaos Space Marines tables. It's got nothing to do with joining an IC with Infiltrate to a unit without it.


Which (as you note) won't work to allow a unit to Infiltrate because of when an IC joins a unit. So an IC with Infiltrate can allow a non-Infiltrate unit to Outflank by joining when they are placed into reserves, but can't allow a non-Infiltrate unit to Infiltrate because there's no permission to join prior to deploying the unit which will have to be deployed prior to the IC who is Infiltrating.

I think there are much bigger shenanigans afoot than the D-Scythes.

With Illic Nightspear's infiltrate it says he can be deployed anywhere, "regardless of the enemies proximity." by a strict RAW, and taking a hardline perspective of codex trumps BRB in the case of the rule that models must be 1" apart, you could read it that he could deploy in base contact with an enemy model, thus locking them in combat from the very start of the game.

Naturally this is not at all RAI, and hopefully is FAQ'd. Or am I missing something in terms of the RAW?

 L'Etat C'Est Moi wrote:
I think there are much bigger shenanigans afoot than the D-Scythes.

With Illic Nightspear's infiltrate it says he can be deployed anywhere, "regardless of the enemies proximity." by a strict RAW, and taking a hardline perspective of codex trumps BRB in the case of the rule that models must be 1" apart, you could read it that he could deploy in base contact with an enemy model, thus locking them in combat from the very start of the game.

Naturally this is not at all RAI, and hopefully is FAQ'd. Or am I missing something in terms of the RAW?

Yes I agree - on P.55 of the Eldar codex; there is nothing stating the minimum 1" distance. So in fact you could be a prat and lock someone in combat on deployment. An unwise idea at best due to Illic having only a 5+ save. I think Illic needs an FAQ. Too many loop holes IMO.

syranas wrote:
So in fact you could be a prat and lock someone in combat on deployment.

Where is the rule that models in base contact are automatically locked in combat despite no combat ever being declared, no charges made, etc? All deploying in base contact would do is make you be in base contact until one of the models involved moved (at which point it would be required to move at least 1" away).

 Peregrine wrote:

syranas wrote:
So in fact you could be a prat and lock someone in combat on deployment.

Where is the rule that models in base contact are automatically locked in combat despite no combat ever being declared, no charges made, etc? All deploying in base contact would do is make you be in base contact until one of the models involved moved (at which point it would be required to move at least 1" away).

Page 23. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." It's not actually predicated on how you got to that situation, just that you are in it. Assuming you read his rule as allowing deployment in base to base that would lock them, but they'd almost certainly quickly turn him to paste.

Chrysis wrote:
It's not actually predicated on how you got to that situation, just that you are in it.

But it is because of the context of the statement. It's talking about what happens within combat once it has happened, not what happens if in a completely different context you have two models in base contact.

This feels pretty much the same as the whole commander shadowsun + infiltrate on TH terminators debate we had a few weeks/months back.

I think the end game was that she couldn't make the terminators infiltrate. I'm assuming unless they FAQ this, it'll end up the same as the Tau's same trick.

 Peregrine wrote:

syranas wrote:
So in fact you could be a prat and lock someone in combat on deployment.

Where is the rule that models in base contact are automatically locked in combat despite no combat ever being declared, no charges made, etc? All deploying in base contact would do is make you be in base contact until one of the models involved moved (at which point it would be required to move at least 1" away).

If you take this stance that he's not in combat then actually the RAW result would be that neither unit can move until the other is killed or a charge is declared because you can't move at all within 1" of an enemy model, including moving through that distance to exit it, it's not just about final destination.

If he can't join a unit and confer that infiltrate to them can he be joined as a unit by another IC. Could you have karandras join him and then turn 0 charge them both?

C-Hydra

No, because of the same IC joining rules already presented. Just substitute K for the other unit already mentioned, it is the exact same rule

My other thought, if Illic is allowed to turn 0 charge, you could join him to a unit that can also infiltrate by its own volition.

You would then deploy them with a 44 inch gap between them. The deployment rules do not specify that a unit must be deployed in coherency. Of course they must then in each movement phase move towards each other making it unwise to do. The only realistic use of this is to increase the size of a units footprint to bubblewrap against drop pods if your going second.

That said if you deployed Illic in combat (alone as he's the only one who can deploy as such) and then a unit of 5 rangers (with him joined to it) on the other side of the board, the enemy unit would batter Illic and then have to move 3 inches a turn towards the rangers on the other side of the board (to pile in) the rangers would have to do the same (effectively locking both units out of the game)

 cute-hydra wrote:
My other thought, if Illic is allowed to turn 0 charge, you could join him to a unit that can also infiltrate by its own volition.

You would then deploy them with a 44 inch gap between them. The deployment rules do not specify that a unit must be deployed in coherency.

The deployment rules specify that the character has to be deployed in coherency to join the unit. Illic's rule doesn't change that, so it'd be just Illic and a separate unit of rangers on the other side of the battlefield.

Ahh right, so while units can be deployed out of coherency IC's joining have to be within coherency.

Makes sense ^^

While we are the subject of Illic, what is the point of his sharpeshots rule.

It gives precision shots to the pathfinders upgrade, I do not understand this, they are armed with ranger long rifle which has the sniper rule, therefore the already have precision shots.

 GimlisonofGloin wrote:
While we are the subject of Illic, what is the point of his sharpeshots rule.

It gives precision shots to the pathfinders upgrade, I do not understand this, they are armed with ranger long rifle which has the sniper rule, therefore the already have precision shots.

Only on a to hit roll of 6, this gives it for all shots.

As above. They get precision shots on EVERY shot. Which is awesome

So can anyone come up with a compelling reason to take Illic besides wanting Pathfinders?

Great looking model

 shamikebab wrote:

 GimlisonofGloin wrote:
While we are the subject of Illic, what is the point of his sharpeshots rule.

It gives precision shots to the pathfinders upgrade, I do not understand this, they are armed with ranger long rifle which has the sniper rule, therefore the already have precision shots.

Only on a to hit roll of 6, this gives it for all shots.

Thanx for clearing that up, I think it could of been worded better. Now I come to think of it, this set up can be pretty devastating if the enemys battle plan revolved around their Hq. Lols all rounds.

I have a lot of "ignores cover" in my meta, no Illic and/or Pathfinders for me 9-(

Pathfinders still rend on a 5+ right?