Codex Chapter T/O (men & equipment) - Total Cost in US Dollars

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**Breotan**

We've all seen (I think) the picture in the Codex Space Marines which shows the general breakdown of squads in each chapter, but I was wondering if there was any fluff explaining the "official" number of support units (Dreads, Speeders, Bikes, Razorbacks, etc.) in each squad as they are supposed to maintain their own support equipment. Also, when a squad is deployed at full strength, are the bikes extra to the 100 Marines or are we supposed to assume that one or more of the existing squads simply are mounted on bikes? What about Land Speeders?

In the olden days of the 3rd Edition codex, there was a picture of a full chapter. Does this exist on the internet somewhere? I'd like to see how they have it laid out but I don't have my old codex any more.

**Lynata**

We've only ever seen the exact organisation of the Ultramarines, but given their supposedly strict adherence to the Codex Astartes, they probably serve as a good example. Still, there have been minor differences in its organisation between the various editions. Specifically, the organisational affiliation of most supporting vehicles has changed into the Chapter Armoury. This, however, does not have to be a retcon as much as a matter of perspective, for the old 2E Codex Ultramarines has already pointed out that it is Codex Standard for these vehicles to belong to the Armoury, yet they can indeed be permanently assigned to a company depending on the decrees of a Chapter's leadership.

The 5E Codex contained this list:

Spoiler:

I think I've only ever seen Dreads and Rhinos as explicitly stated to be firmly associated with a company. Land Speeders, Bikes, etc may well be part of the Armoury, even if it's mostly the Reserves that use them (to support a Battle Company). Razorbacks have been mentioned to be part of the Armoury in the 2E Codex.

As far as numbers are concerned, I've never seen an indication that there might be a set number. The only hard rule seems to be the organisation of the Chapter of 10 companies with 10 squads with 10 Marines. Since vehicle drivers are recruited out of this organisation, this puts a "natural limit" on how much a Chapter may field in terms of vehicles, and it depends entirely on the individual Chapter's culture and tactical preferences as well as its resources in raw material and Techmarine manpower how many vehicles of what type it may choose to maintain.

**SerQuintus**

I'm assuming by squad you mean company.

Bikes and Speeders are crewed by company marines. In Battle Companies they are usually crewed by the Assault marines, tho the 6th & 7th Tactical companies also specialise in their use.

The only source I've ever seen to give actual numbers to company vehicles is the 3rd edition codex which noted the Ultramarines 4th company as being at full strength with:
15 Rhinos
25 Bikes
5 Attack Bikes
5 Land Speeders
5 Land Speeder Tornadoes
5 Land Speeder Typhoons
4 Dreadnoughts

Obviously that requires way more than 20 marines to man them, but its clear from the 15 Rhinos that the operative word is (sensibly) redundancy.

**Breotan**

Interesting that there's 15 Rhinos and no Razorbacks. I wonder if it was intended to be 10 and 5 but they just did it up wrong in the end?

**Veteran Sergeant**

Razorbacks were part of the Armory on the 3rd Edition list: Here's the image you were looking for:

Spoiler:

Though it's important to take into account the fact that Games Workshop has been notoriously inconsistent and also incomplete in their listings.
For example, the 3rd Ed Ultramarines list says all the vehicles have their own crew included. Of course, when you start doing the math, you realize it takes over four hundred Marines to crew all of those vehicles, which is more than the entire strength of the Reserve companies. And obviously the list of vehicles in any given chapter has increased over the years as we've added vehicles and flyers to the game.

So who really knows? Ultimately, a Chapter's strength is closer to 1,500 to 2,000. But they still stick to the 1,000 Battle Brothers number in the books without explaining what that means. So is it really 1,000, and the Chapters just have hundreds of unused vehicles sitting around all the time because their Marines split duties? Or is the 1,000 just the limit on the line strength for the infantry companies?

GW leaves out a lot of that info because, well, it takes way too much effort to think about that kind of stuff, so they leave it to us the fans to debate it endlessly, lol.

**Lynata**

I interpret it simply as bad/ambiguous wording. Perhaps the author's intention with "crew included" was that the reader is not supposed to add any additional drivers to the vehicles, because - as per previous fluff - they are already listed elsewhere (in the company's infantry listing).

Codex fluff from before as well as after this chart has mentioned these vehicles to be crewed by Tactical Marines, mainly from the Reserve companies as that is one of primary raisons d'être. GW has also been consistent about a Chapter consisting of 1.000 Marine plus the Headquarters Staff, which includes the Armoury consisting of the Techmarines and their Servitors.

I don't necessarily see major contradictions, but certainly it could be explained in a better way. Unless GW does not want to do so, because it is tradition in this franchise to let individual gamers and readers figure out details for themselves.

Breotan wrote:Interesting that there's 15 Rhinos and no Razorbacks. I wonder if it was intended to be 10 and 5 but they just did it up wrong in the end?

Replacements, perhaps? Some companies have less than 10. It may also be part of their tactical doctrine, with some companies not using Rhinos a lot, whilst others are using more than 10 because they split into 5-man Combat Squads before mounting up...
That is mere speculation, though.

**Breotan**

Okay. I went ahead and guessed at what a fully manned Chapter would look like. I didn't include anything in the Fleet (that means fliers) because they're separate from the rest of the chapter and only provide support to the various companies. I also limited the Chapter HQ to those bare elements that would actually be played instead of trying to guess a fully staffed Library and Chapel. I'm also assuming Librarians and Chaplains would attach to existing squads instead of having their own retinue. I also didn't include Scout Bikes as that can be bought extra by anyone interested. Armory is included.

Spoiler:

So, assuming that nothing is overly incorrect in my estimates, the breakdown would be as follows:

Spoiler:

Buying this whole thing from GW would cost the following (get ready for a heart attack):

Spoiler:

Now, I've tried to set up a full Chapter, even if the Chapter HQ is a little thin. I wonder what items will be included in that $10,000 one-click deal that GW is supposedly going to be offering? I'm guessing only infantry squads and rhinos, 5-man Command Squads, and no Land Speeder Storms.

**clively**

Just throwing this out there:
Assuming the $10k one-click "deal" exists, I wouldn't expect it to have too much, if any, in savings.

Look at it this way, if it represents a 30% savings, you can bet a number of resellers would buy a few and ebay the individual kits (and/or parts) out. If it's less than that -- then why buy $10k of plastic in bulk? Just get the parts you want from your preferred discounter.

Remember, most of GW's "one-click" items represent no savings and a few actually cost more than if you clicked a few times to put those items in your cart.

BTW, thanks for doing the math on the price for a chapter. I was kind of curious about that. Currently I have a full company of marines but I'm not sure if I really want to know how much I spent putting it together.

**Breotan**

You're welcome. Just remember, I included no air assets and the Chapter HQ is a little light. I also assumed bikes and vehicles have no Marines with them in the Chapter T/O but GW doesn't sell them that way.

I also didn't follow the Ultramarines example of lots of Dreads in the Devastator Company because it didn't make sense for a support company to have more of them than a battle company.

**Looky Likey**

I suspect the gw chapter will be playable, the 3rd edition chapter is simply too big to fit on any table I've ever played on. Eleven vehicles per company is more than enough if you want it playable.

**1hadhq**

A chapter may deploy on the floor, not tables...
I should know. Took pics of a 1k infantry plus vehicles force and they fill any living room easily.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Took the whole wargear and listed Marines from 1998 and made a "to buy list" based on a collectors guide of 2003
( closest I could find to match the price at M2 ). So still in the transistion process of plastic/hybrid/metal to plastic.
Everything included, bikes and speeders, the HQ, armoury, librarium and apothecaries , but excluding the fleet like Breotan did.

Using 3rd edition codex chart, the Ultramarines would have:

Spoiler:

~ 19.300 - 20.600 $

moving forward, to AD 2013 and the current line of products ( and price...) :

Spoiler:

In the year of 2013, something like the 3rd ed list is: ~ 38.700 $

**Looky Likey**

I'm getting close to 800 marines and I can fit them on a large gaming table (8' by 4') without much room for vehicles or scenery or an opponent's army. Its the 200+ vehicles that makes it unplayable as if we tried a larger table and used reserves we can make it work.

When I finish my Chapter early next year the plan is to use one of Warhammer World's larger tables, probably Fort Pain as its 12' by 6', to play a Chaos + Eldar vs. the Ultramarine Chapter. Plan is to escalate the Ultramarine forces mimicking their tactics as much as possible, so starting with the Scout Company, then Bikes & Speeders, teleportation, Drop Pods (these will be removed the turn after they arrive), Flyers, Finally Tanks. Each company will be tied to one type of vehicle. Escalation will have the added benefit of only having around 200 marines on the table at any one time.

Kudos for anybody who actually has the 3rd edition Chapter fully built and painted.

I suspect that GW will be selling something like this:

for the 10k deal.

**ConsecratedIron**

Holy plastic men Batman! Seriously though, holy hell, that is alot of space marines.

**Breotan**

Looky Likey wrote:
I suspect that GW will be selling something like this:

for the 10k deal.

That's a hell of a lot more than $10k worth of product, even without the Thunderhawk.

**Looky Likey**

Well its here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440270a&prodId=prod2160196a

And is about what I posted in the picture so I think (I haven't checked, I'll leave that to somebody else) a big discount.

**Kain**

Looky Likey wrote:
I'm getting close to 800 marines and I can fit them on a large gaming table (8' by 4') without much room for vehicles or scenery or an opponent's army. Its the 200+ vehicles that makes it unplayable as if we tried a larger table and used reserves we can make it work.

When I finish my Chapter early next year the plan is to use one of Warhammer World's larger tables, probably Fort Pain as its 12' by 6', to play a Chaos + Eldar vs. the Ultramarine Chapter. Plan is to escalate the Ultramarine forces mimicking their tactics as much as possible, so starting with the Scout Company, then Bikes & Speeders, teleportation, Drop Pods (these will be removed the turn after they arrive), Flyers, Finally Tanks. Each company will be tied to one type of vehicle. Escalation will have the added benefit of only having around 200 marines on the table at any one time.

Kudos for anybody who actually has the 3rd edition Chapter fully built and painted.

I suspect that GW will be selling something like this:

for the 10k deal.

Not enough Thunderhawks.

**Breotan**

Looky Likey wrote:
Well its here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440270a&prodId=prod2160196a

And is about what I posted in the picture so I think (I haven't checked, I'll leave that to somebody else) a big discount.

11.4% roughly. It's a joke basically. You can get better discounts from online retailers and even get them to ship to you free. That will also remove the sales tax from buying direct from GW.