Using the Chapter Tactics on some of the Chaos Space Marine Legions

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**Chaospling**

Hello guys

What do you think about using the Chapter Tactics rules on units in the Chaos Space Marine codex?

My reason and train of thought is something along "Well, if they don't pay points for it and it leaves Space Marine players with a huge variety and flexibility, then it shouldn't hurt the fairness and balance of the game if Chaos had those rules too".

Though I also have the opinion that I can't understand why the rules of Chapter Tactics aren't worth any points!

If this is implemented and played with between friends (I know I could just ask my friends and get an yes or a no, but I want to hear your thought-THROUGH opinions) I would only apply rules to units which haven't got a Mark of Chaos, so not to make too powerful units.

I guess I would use the rules by so:

Imperial Fists -> Iron Warriors - The Siege Masters rule should apply to Chaos Havocs and maybe Obliterators if it doesn't make them too powerful.

Raven Guard -> Night Lords

Maybe it would also make sense to use Ultra Marines rules for the Alpha Legion and the Black Templars rules for Word Bearers.

I would also wish for Orks and Eldar to have rules for their clans and craftworlds but their units are no where near the same as Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines.

Comments like "OMG are you ****ing crazy - this must never be done" and others like these which don't bring arguments and which are fuelled by emotions rather than cool logical thinking will be ignored.

**Mywik**

This seems to belong into the proposed rules forum rather than YMDC

**rohansoldier**

It does belong in Proposed rules but my idea on the subject is that the best way for this to be done is to simply use the SM codex for your CSM army.

In fact, I plan to do exactly this eventually with my Iron Warrior army when it is up to 1500 + pts (probably with either Imperial Fists or Iron Hands rules).

**Thaanos**

If you look at the poinst cost between a tac squad and the chaos equivilent, and give them the same upgrades, the chaos squad costs 5 points less, and the champion has a close combat weapon in addition to the bolter and pistol. I'm sure there is also a points differnece between other equivilent forces as well.

**Chaospling**

Yes of course it should belong in that sub-forum; guess it will be moved any time.

Well I will not use another codex - the day I'll use another codex than the one which should be used, I'll leave the hobby.

I also thought about using the Black Templars rules for World Eaters but I don't know if that will make them too powerful when combined with Mark of Khorne. Though I guess Khorne Berzerkers will be interesting again.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thaanos wrote:
If you look at the poinst cost between a tac squad and the chaos equivilent, and give them the same upgrades, the chaos squad costs 5 points less, and the champion has a close combat weapon in addition to the bolter and pistol. I'm sure there is also a points differnece between other equivilent forces as well.

5 points less. For those 5 points the Tactical squad get Chapter Tactics and And They Shall Know No Fear - that's what I think is unfair. (To compare them I say "more than 10 models = more transport options" and " 2 Special Weapons = Combat Squads")

Also by giving Space Marines Chapters Tactics without point costs GW effectively say that Space Marines were over-costed earlier, which they weren't and no gamer said so.

**Thaanos**

For what they brought to the game, by the end of 5th and early 6th(before the new codex), some things were over costed, while others were under.

A Chaos champion has the option to become a demon prince, or increase his statline at no extra cost.
Each chaos marine is a point cheaper. so while that may not seem like much, look at having four 10 man squads, that's going to be 40 points cheaper actross the army.

**Chaospling**

Thaanos wrote:
For what they brought to the game, by the end of 5th and early 6th(before the new codex), some things were over costed, while others were under.

A Chaos champion has the option to become a demon prince, or increase his statline at no extra cost.

That he must issue or accept a challenge makes up for this I think. (Talking about Aspiring Champions mostly).

Thaanos wrote:

Each chaos marine is a point cheaper. so while that may not seem like much, look at having four 10 man squads, that's going to be 40 points cheaper actross the army.

In my opinion 40 points cheaper doesn't make up for it. It doesn't matter if you compare several squads or models. 1 point for And They Shall Know No Fear is too low I think when it makes them immune to getting swept and Fear and now that 1 point also includes Chapter Tactics. To be immune to Fear could almost be priced to 1 point on its' own.

**Mozzamanx**

I think that a 1pt difference was too little even before Chapter Tactics were slapped on. As it stands now, a Chaos Marine is a Marine in stats and wargear, but absolutely nothing on the rules.
The common counter argument is that while Loyalists get their toys, ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics, CSM get Marks. Well this is all fine and dandy, but say the Mark of Nurgle, which is the most common Mark because it's the best? Iron Hands are *tougher* than Nurgle CSM because even though T5 is better than 6+ FNP, that FNP comes on a body 2pts cheaper. The Hand also gets all his toys and Morale tricks on top of that.

While I would like the option to play Mono-Legion, it should not be the standard way of playing. I would therefore introduce a Legion-upgrade to any unit willing to pay for it, and then if the whole army is themed, you get a minor benefit.

Example- Legacy of the Hydra (Alpha Legion). Effectively a 'Mark' that grants Outflank, Acute Senses and Move-through-Cover. If your army only contains un-Marked or Hydra units, then all Hydra-units get a Scout move pre-game.
Alternatively, Legacy of Terror might grant Night Vision, Hit and Run and Fear. If your army is entirely made up of un-marked or Terror units, you can automatically force Night Fighting on turn 1.
Legacy of the Wolf might grant rerolls to Scatter and Preferred Enemy (Independent Character). The Black Legion is the 'open' choice and so it does not have any limitations to unlock it, but rather has the bonus of allowing all 4 Cult units as Troops without any further penalties.

Could even throw in a template for the Corsairs to follow, granting Battle Brothers (Space Marines).

**Chaospling**

I really like the sound of "Legacy of... " .

I have a suggestion to improve the Champion of Chaos rule slightly, so it's more of a preferable rule than a rule you want to avoid, so buffs Chaos characters and their squads a bit.
The Chaos Champion doesn't have to issue or accept challenges. Only if the Chaos Champion issued the challenge in which he killed an enemy character, he rolls on the Boon of Chaos Table.
Though I don't know if this change makes the rule too good?
Maybe he could also roll on the Boon of Chaos table, if the Chaos Champion accepted the challenge, but in this case he gets a -1 to the first dice rolled, making rolls of 1 and 2 useless and making it impossible to be elevated to a Daemon Prince this way.

**Mozzamanx**

I'd make it so that he can *choose* to try and catch the attention of the Gods when entering a Challenge. He is not forced to declare or accept a Challenge, and neither must be dedicate every fight to the Gods. However, he always has the option to.

If he chooses to dedicate and wins, he gets a roll on the Boon table. Congratulations Champion.
If he dies, he dead. Tough luck sucker.
If he flees however, he in trouble. I'm not sure whether it would be more appropriate to inflict a Victory Point penalty or simply kill hi on the spot.

**DxM Scotty MxD**

Legacy of Iron
Any unit that purchases this as a mark gains the Hammer of Wrath, Hatred (Imperial Fists) and Legiones Astartes special rules. If your army only contains units that are un-Marked or have Legacy of Iron mark then the army gains a single orbital bombardment (Codex: Space Marines) to be used before the first turn but after all scout moves are made.

**Chaospling**

DxM Scotty MxD wrote:
Legacy of Iron
Any unit that purchases this as a mark gains the Hammer of Wrath, Hatred (Imperial Fists) and Legiones Astartes special rules. If your army only contains units that are un-Marked or have Legacy of Iron mark then the army gains a single orbital bombardment (Codex: Space Marines) to be used before the first turn but after all scout moves are made.

No changes to Havocs, Obliterators, Helbrutes or other vehicles? I mean option-wise, like getting more Heavy weapons or getting the Tank Hunter special rule? Though I really do like the idea of them getting Hammer of Wrath and Hatred (Imperial Fists) - all of their walkers should get that too, at least the Helbrute and Contemptor.

What does the Legion Astartes special rule do?

Maybe Warpsmiths should be moved to the Elites section.

**Mozzamanx**

Introduce another tier to the 'Mark' system, where any model has access to both a Mark and a Legacy. Each would cost a small number of points depending on the benefits associated with it. You would then also pick a Path to Glory, equivalent to a Chapter Tactic.

Legacy of the Hydra: Grants the model Outflank, Acute Senses and Move Through Cover.
Legacy of Terror: Grants the model Night Vision, Fear and Hit & Run.
Legacy of the Disciple: Grants the model Zealot and a Personal Icon. A Chaos Lord bearing this Legacy gains 'Demagogue' and 'Beseech the Dark Gods'.
Legacy of the Ironclad: Grants the model Tank Hunter. Any enemy cover saves awarded by Fortifications suffer a -1 penalty. A Chaos Lord bearing this Legacy gains 'Master of Mechanisms' and 'Shatter Defenses'.
Legacy of the Warmaster: Grants the model Stubborn and Preferred Enemy while fighting in a Challenge.

Legacy of the Butcher: Grants the model Furious Charge, +1WS, Fearless and may replace any weapon with a Chainaxe. Models with the Mark of Khorne only.
Legacy of the Hedonist: Grants the model Fearless and access to the Sonic Weaponry armoury. Models with the Mark of Slaanesh only.
Legacy of the Blighted: Grants the model Feel No Pain, Defensive Grenades, Fearless and may replace any combat weapon with a Plague Knife. Models with the Mark of Nurgle only.
Legacy of the Warlock: Grants the model an Aura of Dark Glory, Inferno Bolts, Fearless and Slow & Purposeful. Any Character bearing this Legacy gains a Psychic Mastery level and Force Weapon. Any non-character reduces their Initiative to 1. Models with the Mark of Tzeentch only.

Paths to Glory: If your army consists entirely of models that either bear the same Legacy or have none available, you may choose the relevant Legion rules. Taking a Mark does not preclude the choice of a different Legion.

The Black Legion: Chosen become a Troops Choice. Any model in Terminator Armour may reroll the dice when arriving by Deep Strike and gain Preferred Enemy: Warlord on the turn they arrive.
The Iron Warriors: You may purchase an additional Fortification slot outside the usual FOC. Your Warlord recieves a free one-use Orbital Strike.
The Word Bearers: Any units of Cultists may upgrade their Champion to a Chaos Space Marine bearing the Legacy of the Disciple for free. Possessed change their unit type to Beasts.
The Night Lords: Raptors become a Troops Choice. You may choose to start the game under Night Fighting conditions.
The Alpha Legion: All models bearing the Legacy of the Hydra gain Scout. You may reroll the dice to determine both which player deploys first and failed attempts to Seize the Initiative.
The World Eaters: All models bearing the Legacy of the Butcher gain the Crusader and Adamantium Will special rules.
The Death Guard: All models bearing the Legacy of the Blighted that did not purchase a Dedicated Transport, gain Relentless.
The Emperors Children: All models bearing the Legacy of the Hedonist gain Preferred Enemy: Eldar. Helbrutes, Land Raiders and Predators may swap their weapons with those available in the Sonic Armoury. Obliterators may add Blastmasters to the list of weaponry available.
The Thousand Sons: All Psykers bearing the Legacy of the Warlock receive an additional Spell. This extra spell must be generated from the Disciplines of Change, Divination, Telepathy or Pyromancy.
The Red Corsairs: Only available to armies that do not bear a Legacy. You may take an Allied Detachment from Codex: Space Marines as Battle Brothers. Any units chosen as part of this detachment lose the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' special rule.

The Legion rules are deliberately very good because they are not intended to be the standard play method. They are effectively a 'reward' for turning away the huge number of options available to a Warband in favour of sticking to themed units. So while the Thousand Sons might seem incredibly powerful, to actually use it requires an army entirely made up of Tzeentchians without any of the other Cult units available.

**Da krimson barun**

The problem with that version is that they pay for the legacy.Do spess muhrines pay for CT?NO.

**iGuy91**

For the 50th time.
Chaos Sphess Marines and Space Marines are NOT supposed to be the same codex...only divided by some spikes on the models!
You have helldrakes. You have t6 bikers, you have flying monsterous creatures. You can ally with demons in order to access the most powerful deathstars in the game.
Maybe a bit of re-costing is in order, but just mimicing the C:SM is the path towards Chaos losing its flavor...

**Chaospling**

iGuy91 wrote:
For the 50th time.
Chaos Sphess Marines and Space Marines are NOT supposed to be the same codex...only divided by some spikes on the models!
You have helldrakes. You have t6 bikers, you have flying monsterous creatures. You can ally with demons in order to access the most powerful deathstars in the game.
Maybe a bit of re-costing is in order, but just mimicing the C:SM is the path towards Chaos losing its flavor...

And for the 51st time. It's okay that Space Marines get more than other races - it has always been like that and I understand GW. But we still want a fair game and amongst the many over-costed units in the Chaos Space Marines codex, the Chaos Space Marine squad is, and this thread started out by talking about rules for the Chaos Space Marines so they wouldn't be that over-costed.
I don't know about you but some of us would like to make army lists that follows the back ground just slightly and that means that we can't just use the god damned Nurgle Bikes and Tzeentch death stars in all of those lists!!!!! It's not fun to be forced to use the effective Heldrake just because 90% of the units in the codex suck.
Just when the Chaos Space Marines codex were published I was VERY happy to see that we got Warpsmiths and we were able to give Marks to all of our units, something which were never possible before, but with the crazy pricing of those Marks and new units all of these options aren't viable.
And so again I tell you, a solution to this is to lower their points-cost or buff them with some rules, so they're worth their points - which of these solutions do you think is the most fun to talk about???

**DxM Scotty MxD**

Chaospling wrote:
DxM Scotty MxD wrote:
Legacy of Iron
Any unit that purchases this as a mark gains the Hammer of Wrath, Hatred (Imperial Fists) and Legiones Astartes special rules. If your army only contains units that are un-Marked or have Legacy of Iron mark then the army gains a single orbital bombardment (Codex: Space Marines) to be used before the first turn but after all scout moves are made.

No changes to Havocs, Obliterators, Helbrutes or other vehicles? I mean option-wise, like getting more Heavy weapons or getting the Tank Hunter special rule? Though I really do like the idea of them getting Hammer of Wrath and Hatred (Imperial Fists) - all of their walkers should get that too, at least the Helbrute and Contemptor.

What does the Legion Astartes special rule do?

Maybe Warpsmiths should be moved to the Elites section.

Legiones Astartes: A unit with this special rule may always attempt to regroup as normal regardless of casualties (moral check modifiers still apply).

**ZebioLizard2**

Legacy of the Hedonist: Grants the model Fearless and access to the Sonic Weaponry armoury. Models with the Mark of Slaanesh only.

This is pretty horrible compared to the other gods.

For the 50th time.
Chaos Sphess Marines and Space Marines are NOT supposed to be the same codex...only divided by some spikes on the models!
You have helldrakes. You have t6 bikers, you have flying monsterous creatures. You can ally with demons in order to access the most powerful deathstars in the game.
Maybe a bit of re-costing is in order, but just mimicing the C:SM is the path towards Chaos losing its flavor...

Except the fact of the matter is, currently CSM is basically SM - 1 when it comes to both fluff and gear.

+ spikes.

But yeah, the problem is that.

Nurgle is pretty much the only viable path, with some slaanesh.

The flying MC is not that great and generally in my meta it's so bad that it's unplayable due to massive amounts of Eldar/Tau.

Heldrakes are good, but they are a crutch that people use to try and say CSM don't need anything.

You can ally with better races..Whoop de doo! Why wouldn't I just play the better race if that was the case!

People want their Warband of choice flavor, they don't want to be locked with Nurgle, Cultists, Heldrakes, Obliterators all the time, the legions were some of CSM's most powerful lore and plenty of people would rather identify their Warband with their legion of choice.

**rohansoldier**

Mozzamanx wrote:
Introduce another tier to the 'Mark' system, where any model has access to both a Mark and a Legacy. Each would cost a small number of points depending on the benefits associated with it. You would then also pick a Path to Glory, equivalent to a Chapter Tactic.

Legacy of the Hydra: Grants the model Outflank, Acute Senses and Move Through Cover.
Legacy of Terror: Grants the model Night Vision, Fear and Hit & Run.
Legacy of the Disciple: Grants the model Zealot and a Personal Icon. A Chaos Lord bearing this Legacy gains 'Demagogue' and 'Beseech the Dark Gods'.
Legacy of the Ironclad: Grants the model Tank Hunter. Any enemy cover saves awarded by Fortifications suffer a -1 penalty. A Chaos Lord bearing this Legacy gains 'Master of Mechanisms' and 'Shatter Defenses'.
Legacy of the Warmaster: Grants the model Stubborn and Preferred Enemy while fighting in a Challenge.

I like all of these, very characterful. I also like how you haven't specified which Legion each is for as it should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about Chaos.

The only problem I have is that taking Ironclad or Disciple makes Warpsmiths or Dark Apostles less desirable if you give their special rules to Chaos Lords. Perhaps instead of that, say that Warpsmiths can be taken 0-3 for a single slot and become Elites? IMO Elites is the most underused slot in the chaos codex anyway as most of the good units (Cults) can be taken as Troops with the right Chaos Lord anyway.

Legacy of the Butcher: Grants the model Furious Charge, +1WS, Fearless and may replace any weapon with a Chainaxe. Models with the Mark of Khorne only.
Legacy of the Hedonist: Grants the model Fearless and access to the Sonic Weaponry armoury. Models with the Mark of Slaanesh only.
Legacy of the Blighted: Grants the model Feel No Pain, Defensive Grenades, Fearless and may replace any combat weapon with a Plague Knife. Models with the Mark of Nurgle only.
Legacy of the Warlock: Grants the model an Aura of Dark Glory, Inferno Bolts, Fearless and Slow & Purposeful. Any Character bearing this Legacy gains a Psychic Mastery level and Force Weapon. Any non-character reduces their Initiative to 1. Models with the Mark of Tzeentch only.

I agree that Hedonist seems a bit weak compared to what the others get. Perhaps add Fleet?

Also why does Warlock reduce non characters to I1? Thousand Sons don't have that do they?

Paths to Glory: If your army consists entirely of models that either bear the same Legacy or have none available, you may choose the relevant Legion rules. Taking a Mark does not preclude the choice of a different Legion.

The Black Legion: Chosen become a Troops Choice. Any model in Terminator Armour may reroll the dice when arriving by Deep Strike and gain Preferred Enemy: Warlord on the turn they arrive.

- Good but removes one of the perks of taking Abbadon.

The Iron Warriors: You may purchase an additional Fortification slot outside the usual FOC. Your Warlord recieves a free one-use Orbital Strike.

I like it but how about also adding Stubborn while in fortifications? Very appropriate for Iron Warriors IMO.

The Word Bearers: Any units of Cultists may upgrade their Champion to a Chaos Space Marine bearing the Legacy of the Disciple for free. Possessed change their unit type to Beasts.

Perhaps allow each Champion or HQ a free Boon before the game to represent their worship to the gods before the battle? Re-rolling Spawn or Dark Apotheosis.

The Night Lords: Raptors become a Troops Choice. You may choose to start the game under Night Fighting conditions.
The Alpha Legion: All models bearing the Legacy of the Hydra gain Scout. You may reroll the dice to determine both which player deploys first and failed attempts to Seize the Initiative.
The World Eaters: All models bearing the Legacy of the Butcher gain the Crusader and Adamantium Will special rules.
The Death Guard: All models bearing the Legacy of the Blighted that did not purchase a Dedicated Transport, gain Relentless.
The Emperors Children: All models bearing the Legacy of the Hedonist gain Preferred Enemy: Eldar. Helbrutes, Land Raiders and Predators may swap their weapons with those available in the Sonic Armoury. Obliterators may add Blastmasters to the list of weaponry available.
The Thousand Sons: All Psykers bearing the Legacy of the Warlock receive an additional Spell. This extra spell must be generated from the Disciplines of Change, Divination, Telepathy or Pyromancy.
The Red Corsairs: Only available to armies that do not bear a Legacy. You may take an Allied Detachment from Codex: Space Marines as Battle Brothers. Any units chosen as part of this detachment lose the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' special rule.

I like all of these. Nice work!

The Legion rules are deliberately very good because they are not intended to be the standard play method. They are effectively a 'reward' for turning away the huge number of options available to a Warband in favour of sticking to themed units. So while the Thousand Sons might seem incredibly powerful, to actually use it requires an army entirely made up of Tzeentchians without any of the other Cult units available.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Legacy of the Hedonist: Grants the model Fearless and access to the Sonic Weaponry armoury. Models with the Mark of Slaanesh only.

This is pretty horrible compared to the other gods.

For the 50th time.
Chaos Sphess Marines and Space Marines are NOT supposed to be the same codex...only divided by some spikes on the models!
You have helldrakes. You have t6 bikers, you have flying monsterous creatures. You can ally with demons in order to access the most powerful deathstars in the game.
Maybe a bit of re-costing is in order, but just mimicing the C:SM is the path towards Chaos losing its flavor...

Except the fact of the matter is, currently CSM is basically SM - 1 when it comes to both fluff and gear.

+ spikes.

But yeah, the problem is that.

Nurgle is pretty much the only viable path, with some slaanesh.

The flying MC is not that great and generally in my meta it's so bad that it's unplayable due to massive amounts of Eldar/Tau.

Heldrakes are good, but they are a crutch that people use to try and say CSM don't need anything.

You can ally with better races..Whoop de doo! Why wouldn't I just play the better race if that was the case!

People want their Warband of choice flavor, they don't want to be locked with Nurgle, Cultists, Heldrakes, Obliterators all the time, the legions were some of CSM's most powerful lore and plenty of people would rather identify their Warband with their legion of choice.

- Have an Exalt for this. This is the exact reason why my Iron Warriors at the moment don't have any cult units or marks on anybody (except Nurgle on my one Obliterator squad, but that is there for highlighting how damn huge they are).

I eventually plan to add a few Slaaneshi units in there, as I feel not even the Iron Warriors are completely immune to the lures of Chaos.

**StarTrotter**

iGuy91 wrote:
For the 50th time.
Chaos Sphess Marines and Space Marines are NOT supposed to be the same codex...only divided by some spikes on the models!
You have helldrakes. You have t6 bikers, you have flying monsterous creatures. You can ally with demons in order to access the most powerful deathstars in the game.
Maybe a bit of re-costing is in order, but just mimicing the C:SM is the path towards Chaos losing its flavor...

As many else have said.... except the fact that chaos space marines are SM-1+spikes. Legions? Naw only warbands though now let us contradict it by talking about the gigantic Black Legion and continue to have fluff that laughs in this as well as individuals that will not give it up. I don't really need to be able to build my legions, would I love to play an iron warrior legion without feeling like I need to just play the SM codex, where I inherently feel like my csm are SM-1 with the special rules for CSM being a joke, where we lose many weapons and get... strange things that usually suck back. Where our diversity in marks is overcosted to no end and it is pretty much impossible to build a reasonable force of tzeentch only and the vehicles don't comply to your choices. Difference is good yes, the problem is that chaos isn't t6 bikers or a fmc nor is allying in daemons (which might I add used to be a part of the csm codex) any more inherent to the codex (which if I might add further makes CSM SM-1. SM get to be battle brothers wiiiith Tau, IG (which many argue should be bb with csm), every other SM force and most imperial forces in general.

**LoyalistAlphaLegion**

By the by, does anyone else hate the 'Champion of Chaos' rule with a burning passion? Honestly, anything that forces me to let my Champ get gutted by Shrike or pounded to paste by the Swarmlord just makes me sad. So sad that I get angry. Man I hate that rule...

**Chaospling**

LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
By the by, does anyone else hate the 'Champion of Chaos' rule with a burning passion? Honestly, anything that forces me to let my Champ get gutted by Shrike or pounded to paste by the Swarmlord just makes me sad. So sad that I get angry. Man I hate that rule...

I kind of agree. I like the idea that Chaos Space Marines pursue power and so they want to catch the attention of the gods at all costs. But rules which forces players to do something have never been applauded - I think I still wouldn't mind if just the positive side were greater or if the rule was changed so you only roll for Boons when you have issued a challenge and that you can freely choose to issue or accept challenges.