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I was playing against the Screamer Star and Eldrad cast Puppet Master on them and my opponent agreed that I could use his own Flickering Fire because we couldn't find a reason not to. You do generate warp charges in your opponents turn don't you? Otherwise Force Weapons wouldn't work, and neither would Ghosthelms. So I passed a second ldship test on the herald and blasted some Khorne Dogs with all his warp charges (4d6 strength 6 shots). Now I'm wondering if we played it right, because I used his own prescience he cast on his own turn. He then countered that he could then overwatch with his powers if he generates warp charges, I heard on the internet you can't but I didn't know why so I let him. SO my questions being can puppet master force enemies to use witchfires? Would a shot fired because of Puppet Master be effected by prescience? And Why can't you overwatch with witchfires?

Thanks

Why wouldn't ghosthelms work?
You can't overwatch with witchfires because of FAQ's page 4.
Warp charges are generated each turn (= player turn) .
Blessings last until next turn's end.
You can force psykers under Telepathy's last power to activate their force weapons, so I'd say you can make them use their witchfires

You can not make them use their witchfires because Puppet Master does not allow you to spend an opposing psykers Warp Charge.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can not make them use their witchfires because Puppet Master does not allow you to spend an opposing psykers Warp Charge.

Which is, of course, irrelevant. Spending the Warp Charge isn't how you decide to case a power, you just decide to and then the warp charge is spent.

Hallucitation allows you to make your enemy spend warp charges, so there's a precedent.
Puppet master allows you to have the target shoot as your own model, I'd say it works

To clarify a few things not addressed already:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
You do generate warp charges in your opponents turn don't you?

You generate Charge each player turn. BRB Page 66 tells us "per turn", and page 9 tells us how to tell between 'player turns' and 'game turns'.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Would a shot fired because of Puppet Master be effected by prescience?

Yes, Blessings last (unless otherwise stated) until the end of the following (player) turn.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And Why can't you overwatch with witchfires?

From the BRB FAQ:

Q: Can psychic shooting attacks be fired as Snap Shots (assuming that the Psyker has enough Warp Charge available and requires a roll to hit)? (p13)
A: Yes, but only in your own Shooting phase. This means that psychic shooting attacks cannot be made when firing Overwatch.

The fact you can only manifest witchfires during your own shooting phase might be a limitation however.

'Witchfire powers aer manifested during the psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.... '

Bonus for first time noticing the typo on 'are' there. But with the timing in the rule book coupled with the faq about timing I would say no, as pps cab only manifested at very specific times

Right, but puppet master makes the target fire as if it was your model - so you're shooting phase.

rigeld2 wrote:
Right, but puppet master makes the target fire as if it was your model - so you're shooting phase.

And overwatch is shot as if it was the shooting phase- but the power can not be manifested, because it can only be manifested in your own shooting phase, this does not carry over to items which work like your shooting phase.

 Nem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Right, but puppet master makes the target fire as if it was your model - so you're shooting phase.

And overwatch is shot as if it was the shooting phase- but the power can not be manifested, because it can only be manifested in your own shooting phase, this does not carry over to items which work like your shooting phase.

I wonder - does Overwatch have a rule saying that?
Oh. It does.
So bringing it up is entirely irrelevant.
When you puppet master something you make a shooting attack as if it was one of your models. Can your models activate witchfires?

rigeld2 wrote:
Right, but puppet master makes the target fire as if it was your model - so you're shooting phase.

It it makes a shooting attack as if it was your model, this does not change the fact it is not the psyker's own shooting phase as described in controlling player vs opposing player, and The Turn (page 8 and 9)

 Nem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Right, but puppet master makes the target fire as if it was your model - so you're shooting phase.

It it makes a shooting attack as it it was your model, this does not change the fact it is not the psyker's own shooting phase as described in controlling player vs opposing player, and The Turn (page 8 and 9)

"as if it was your model"
Is it the shooting phase for your models? Oh - it is! Well isn't that peachy.

Saying he can't use witchfires because it's not his shooting phase means you're ignoring the rule saying "as if it was your model".

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Right, but puppet master makes the target fire as if it was your model - so you're shooting phase.

It it makes a shooting attack as it it was your model, this does not change the fact it is not the psyker's own shooting phase as described in controlling player vs opposing player, and The Turn (page 8 and 9)

"as if it was your model"
Is it the shooting phase for your models? Oh - it is! Well isn't that peachy.

Saying he can't use witchfires because it's not his shooting phase means you're ignoring the rule saying "as if it was your model".

Right, as if it were your model. Does that mean the game switches to the controlling plates shooting phase, or you just fire it as if it were your model, in your turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It doesn't need to say albiate, in your turn, because that bits pretty obvious. You have permission to make a shooting attack, not permission to manifest a power which are separate rules. Manifesting is not dependant on when or how you make a shooting attack.

I have no idea what you were trying to say in that post - not an insult, it just didn't make sense.

Puppet master enables you to make a shooting attack as if it were one of your models. This does not change the fact it is the opposing players turn, or that it's the opposing players shooting phase. Prior rules are still in play which remain unchanged by the rules for puppet master. It doesn't need to note it's not the psyker's own shooting phase, because we already know that. Overwatch doesn't really need to note it's in the assault phase, because we already know that. The limit of what you can do with puppet master is make a shooting attack as if your model, not manifest as if your model, or anything else phase related

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can not make them use their witchfires because Puppet Master does not allow you to spend an opposing psykers Warp Charge.

Which is, of course, irrelevant. Spending the Warp Charge isn't how you decide to case a power, you just decide to and then the warp charge is spent.

Except pupetmaster does not allow you to start or follow this sequence:

"Once a Psyker states which psychic power he is going to attempt to manifest, follow this sequence: 1. Expend Warp Charge Reduce the Psyker's Warp Charge."(67)

DeathReaper had it right the 1st time.

The precedent from Hallucination doesn't apply here in the way it's being used. Hallucination says that the models affected must use the "most powerful close combat weapons" available to them. This is what makes burning a warp charge possible it's a requisite to do what the psychic power is telling you to do.

In the case of puppet master it says that you may use the model to make a shooting attack as though it were your own, you're not allowed to use it as your own for any other purpose.

This reminds me of the MSS vs Force weapons argument that GW was kind enough to clarify.

The hallucination power also had a clarification that way, but it was clearer since it allowed you to use the weapons special rules, and thus Force too....

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can not make them use their witchfires because Puppet Master does not allow you to spend an opposing psykers Warp Charge.

Which is, of course, irrelevant. Spending the Warp Charge isn't how you decide to case a power, you just decide to and then the warp charge is spent.

Except pupetmaster does not allow you to start or follow this sequence:

"Once a Psyker states which psychic power he is going to attempt to manifest, follow this sequence: 1. Expend Warp Charge Reduce the Psyker's Warp Charge."(67)

You're saying Puppet Master does not allow the bolded decision.
Citation please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nem wrote:

Puppet master enables you to make a shooting attack as if it were one of your models. This does not change the fact it is the opposing players turn, or that it's the opposing players shooting phase. Prior rules are still in play which remain unchanged by the rules for puppet master. It doesn't need to note it's not the psyker's own shooting phase, because we already know that. Overwatch doesn't really need to note it's in the assault phase, because we already know that. The limit of what you can do with puppet master is make a shooting attack as if your model, not manifest as if your model, or anything else phase related

Manifesting a witchfire is making a shooting attack. Page 69. "Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon"
Denying the ability to manifest a witchfire because it's not the psyker 's shooting phase means you're not treating it "as if it was your model".

Making a shooting attack is not permission to manifest a witchpower, you need to manifest the witchpower to make the shooting attack- the manifestation is not on condition of making a shooting attack, it's upon the condition it's your own shooting phase.

2 conditions required to use a witchfire, puppet master only allows one of those as it it were your model.

 Nem wrote:
Making a shooting attack is not permission to manifest a witchpower, you need to manifest the witchpower to make the shooting attack- the manifestation is not on condition of making a shooting attack, it's upon the condition it's your own shooting phase.

And it is your shooting phase, because that enemy psyker is your model until PM wears off.

Fragile wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Making a shooting attack is not permission to manifest a witchpower, you need to manifest the witchpower to make the shooting attack- the manifestation is not on condition of making a shooting attack, it's upon the condition it's your own shooting phase.

And it is your shooting phase, because that enemy psyker is your model until PM wears off.

Only a model I am making a shooting attack as if it was my model. It's not treated or counted as mine, it's not the controlling players own shooting phase it's still my shooting phase. Controlling vs opponent, and turn order decide whose shooting phase it is, and that is not changed by 'making a shooting attack' as if it were my model

 Nem wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Making a shooting attack is not permission to manifest a witchpower, you need to manifest the witchpower to make the shooting attack- the manifestation is not on condition of making a shooting attack, it's upon the condition it's your own shooting phase.

And it is your shooting phase, because that enemy psyker is your model until PM wears off.

Only a model I am making a shooting attack as if it was my model. It's not treated or counted as mine, it's not the controlling players own shooting phase it's still my shooting phase. Controlling vs opponent, and turn order decide whose shooting phase it is, and that is not changed by 'making a shooting attack' as if it were my model

The underlined part clearly states it. You treat it as your model. It is your shooting phase. You can fire.

 Nem wrote:
Making a shooting attack is not permission to manifest a witchpower, you need to manifest the witchpower to make the shooting attack- the manifestation is not on condition of making a shooting attack, it's upon the condition it's your own shooting phase.

2 conditions required to use a witchfire, puppet master only allows one of those as it it were your model.

Manifesting a witchfire is a shooting attack. I've quoted and cited the page. Do you have something that disproves that?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Making a shooting attack is not permission to manifest a witchpower, you need to manifest the witchpower to make the shooting attack- the manifestation is not on condition of making a shooting attack, it's upon the condition it's your own shooting phase.

2 conditions required to use a witchfire, puppet master only allows one of those as it it were your model.

Manifesting a witchfire is a shooting attack. I've quoted and cited the page. Do you have something that disproves that?

I didn't say it’s not a shooting attack. I said permission to make a shooting attack is not permission to manifest a witchfire, we know this because the FAQ tells us we can't manifest the power, even though at that time we are allowed to make a shooting attack. We can’t manifest the power because it’s not your own shooting phase – even though overwatch uses all those rules as if it were your shooting phase, and the recent thread there shows we use shooting phase rules and special rules - but manifesting is an exception to this. This suggests a very locked timing on the ability to manifest powers, one that I don’t think puppet master overcomes.

 Nem wrote:
I didn't say it’s not a shooting attack. I said permission to make a shooting attack is not permission to manifest a witchfire, we know this because the FAQ tells us we can't manifest the power, even though at that time we are allowed to make a shooting attack.

In a specific, unrelated and hence irrelevant instance.

We can’t manifest the power because it’s not your own shooting phase – even though overwatch uses all those rules as if it were your shooting phase, and the recent thread there shows we use shooting phase rules and special rules - but manifesting is an exception to this. This suggests a very locked timing on the ability to manifest powers, one that I don’t think puppet master overcomes.

So you're arguing intent? Prior to the FAQ the rules absolutely allowed witchfires as Overwatch. There are no current rules restricting witchfires from Puppet Master. Unless you'd care to actually cite one this time?

Its a bit of a grey area, and rule of cool I'd probobly allow it, but if I were to try and break down the best examples of RAW...

Permission to make a shooting attack in the Psyker's shooting phase = Permision to manifest a witchfire power in the psyker's shooting phase.

The pskyer can't use a witchfire power when firing overwatch because it is not the psyker's shooting phase. (FAQ suppoorts this)

The Psyker's shooting phase is that Psyker's controlling player's shooting phase.

The controlling player is always the player who owns the model. Making decisions as if it was your model does not actually make it your model. (pg 8)

You can't change the 'when' of a Psyker's shooting phase and as such cannot force an enemy psyker to manifest a shooting attack power in your shooting phase.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
I didn't say it’s not a shooting attack. I said permission to make a shooting attack is not permission to manifest a witchfire, we know this because the FAQ tells us we can't manifest the power, even though at that time we are allowed to make a shooting attack.

In a specific, unrelated and hence irrelevant instance.

We can’t manifest the power because it’s not your own shooting phase – even though overwatch uses all those rules as if it were your shooting phase, and the recent thread there shows we use shooting phase rules and special rules - but manifesting is an exception to this. This suggests a very locked timing on the ability to manifest powers, one that I don’t think puppet master overcomes.

So you're arguing intent? Prior to the FAQ the rules absolutely allowed witchfires as Overwatch. There are no current rules restricting witchfires from Puppet Master. Unless you'd care to actually cite one this time?

I’m arguing as written and intent, RAW is Witchfire PP's are manifested in Psyker's shooting phase. There is no rules allowing you to manifest a Witchfire PP in the assault phase, or your opponents shooting phase, those rules just don't exist.

You have permission to make a shooting attack and a Witchfire is a type of shooting attack (sub type? its own type? not very well defined), but you must use all of the rules which govern psychic powers also. One of those being that the power is manifested in the Psyker's shooting phase.

That’s all just RAW. The problem comes from the fact the manifestation is worded much alike to anything else which grants permission to do something, which are usually able to be utilized in overwatch, and other turns. The only reason we have to believe the permission is a restricted permission (is that even a thing? =S) is because there is a FAQ telling us you can fire snapshots, but only in your own shooting phase, this means you cannot overwatch.

So then we have 2 ways forward;

o Allow Puppet Master to use a Psychic shooting attack, but it cannot be fired as a snapshot - This is taking the FAQ very literally and ignoring any sort of FAQ/RAW comparing or understanding.
o Disallow Puppet Master to make a Psychic shooting attack.

While actions can be performed by my opponent with my model as if they were his, it's not my own shooting phase.

 Nem wrote:
I’m arguing as written and intent, RAW is Witchfire PP's are manifested in Psyker's shooting phase. There is no rules allowing you to manifest a Witchfire PP in the assault phase, or your opponents shooting phase, those rules just don't exist.

Correct.

You have permission to make a shooting attack and a Witchfire is a type of shooting attack (sub type? its own type? not very well defined), but you must use all of the rules which govern psychic powers also. One of those being that the power is manifested in the Psyker's shooting phase.

And this is the Psyker's shooting phase as its one of your own models (for the duration of the attack). A fact which you continue to ignore despite the fact that it has been pointed out repeatedly.

While actions can be performed by my opponent with my model as if they were his, it's not my own shooting phase.

Then you're not following the rules for Puppet Master correctly.
"as if" == "counts as" == is.
The model is your opponents for the duration of the attack. That means it's the Psyker's shooting phase.