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These guys cause no shortage of trouble. In the aftermath of the 1st Armageddon war they destroyed many Imperial ships, killed a Lord Inquisitor and some Grey Knights... (Including a Grand Master!)

For killing Grey Knights, the chapter should be deemed Extremis Diabolus at the very least, and yet they are plot armour'd out of there without issue. But... Why? The stupidity of it makes me sad.

I'm sure this thread will be constructive.

All 1st Founding chapters have great political power, and there are treaties providing political support - Ragnar Blackmane was once a bodyguard for a Navigator due to these, for example.

But yes, sometimes I do wonder while they're still around - killing Inquisitors, Grey Knights and Adepta Sororitas is a bad idea.

I don't think that it's all political power. Partly, it seems to be that they're hard to get rid of. When the Ecclesiarchy sent in the SoB in response to the Wolves killing some missionaries, they only pulled out due to the conflict taking too long and not going anywhere. At no point was it mentioned that the Ecclesiarchy was concerned about the political power of the Wolves.

Almost 12 thousand space marines are not going to be easy to fight.Also they kill more enemy then friends and the imperium needs all the spess muhrines they can get.

Da krimson barun wrote:
Almost 12 thousand space marines are not going to be easy to fight

There are less than two thousand Wolves.

They are allowed to live because the plot wants them to.

Well, depending on where your fluff comes from, they were not the ones that fired first when it came to the 1st War for Armageddon. They had made an agreement with the Grey Knight in charge of the fight (The Space Wolves knew very little of the workings of the Inquisition, and surely not enough to know that the Grey Knights aren't decision makers.). The agreement was spit on for no reason by the Inquisition, as that's their power to do so. But they fired first.

They killed the Grand Master stupid enough to say it was his order that caused the shot to be fired. (I love that part with Logan.. sweet.)

Then, the Inquisition basically lays siege to Fenris threatening to destroy it, so the Lord Inquisitor is killed... all decisions were poor ones by the Inquisition and they let their pride of office get in the way of negotiation.

The galaxy is massive, and the amount of firepower required to destroy an entire legion? And a 1st founding chapter? Nah, never going to happen. 1st Founding chapters are a symbol of the Imperium's strength... as much as they've got left that is.

It doesn't really matter who fired first when the side that fired first has far more power than the other.

Logically, there is no reason the Inquisition could not wipe out a mere two thousand Marines.

Wait, when did the Wolves kill Grey Knights?
Angron and his bodyguard killed a bunch of them when Grimnar, who was in charge of the Imperials for Armageddon round 1, called them in as his trump card, but AFAIK, Grimnar's grief after the event was not with the Grey Knights or even with the Inquisition, but with the Administratum who condemned thousands of brave warriors to spend the remainder of their lives in gulags after defeating the forces of Chaos.
And last I checked Ulrik stayed Grimnar's hand in the aftermath, so no actual Imperial infighting occurred. I don't know where you heard that they destroyed "many imperial ships" or a Lord Inquisitor there, but this is the first I've heard of it.

As for the shortlived war with the Sisters, the Ecclesiarchy (who the Sisters owe allegiance to) has no authority whatsoever over any Adeptus Astartes, and their attempt to force the Wolves (a First Founding Chapter!) into accepting such was doomed to failure from the start.

Also, 10,000 years of loyal service to the Imperium isn't something you just ignore.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Wait, when did the Wolves kill Grey Knights?[...] this is the first I've heard of it.

I think it's from a BL book.

Bran Dawri wrote:
their attempt to force the Wolves (a First Founding Chapter!) into accepting such was doomed to failure from the start.

Did it really matter that they're a First Founding chapter, though? The Ecclesiarchy only pulled out because their attack wasn't making any real progress. At no point did the Ecclesiarchy feel that they should stop due to the Astartes Chapter they were fighting happening to be a First Founding one.

Because the SW are the ultimate "Bro" chapter.

Wiping out a 1st founding chapter like the wolves would have huge repercussions. I bet a 1st founding like the wolves would have a good amount of allies in the Imperium and some outside of it. Not to mention all killing sob isn't that big of a thing, after all the Grey Knights did it.

Also considering that the wolves have been doing more good then bad, so there is that.

Because both sides are wrong.

 Troike wrote:

I think it's from a BL book.

Correct, The Emperor's Gift.

Because the Space Wolves value human life, a rare trait in the Imperium. Logan Grimnar is one of the few people who undeniably fights for the good of mankind, rather than just for its survival.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It doesn't really matter who fired first when the side that fired first has far more power than the other.

Logically, there is no reason the Inquisition could not wipe out a mere two thousand Marines.

The inquisition isn't a united force. Many inquisitors in that story about Armegeddon specifically disagreed with the lord inquisitor Kysnos, and some were even plotting to get rid of him!

How can the Inquisition punish the wolves for returning fire regarding Armegeddon if a good portion of the inquisitors actually agree with the wolves (or at the very least, think the head inquisitor is handling the situation badly)? Hell, one of the inquisitors involved was from Fenris!

The wolves are still around due to a combination of plot armour and common sense. As powerful as the Imperium is, it NEEDS the power of the wolves, and frankly, despite how evil the Imperium can get on a grander scale, many of its members TRY to be good so at least SOME members of the Imperium realize that the wolves are the nice guys and it's the people firing on the wolves that are friggin' ass holes.

In addition, it'd be a huge blow to morale across the entire Imperium if the wolves were declared traitors. One of the wolves was around when the Emperor still walked the earth, for crying out loud. How would YOU feel if one of the last people alive when your GOD WALKED THE EARTH was declared a traitor?

 kinratha wrote:
Not to mention all killing sob isn't that big of a thing, after all the Grey Knights did it.

The Grey Knights did that secretely, though. Nobody even knows that the GK exist in the first place.

And yes, killing SoB would be a big deal, since it'd be an attack on the Ecclesiarchy itself, which is one of the most powerful and influential organisations in the Imperium.

The wolves should be put down. They are all mutants and make the old thousand son's mutations look like nothing more than being ginger...

I believe TiamatRoar and I are on the same page here. Inquisitors rarely agree on anything and it's doubtful they'd have been able to finish the wolves. Even the Grey Knights were ashamed of what happened.

Again this is all from one story also. Hard to judge based on a single Grey Knight's perception but it seemed pretty clear that the Wolves had earned their keep. Again destroying a First Founding chapter isn't just killing 2000 marines. It's destroying a symbol.

They have definitely drawn ire from countless quarters but they are still very needed. This discussion does make me face palm with the Wolves as Battle Brothers with the Inquisition. Ugh

Basically through their actions the Wolves upset some parts of the Imperium while becoming more celebrated by others. As a result the different factions of the Imperium are holding each other in check regarding the wolves at the moment.

The key thing to remember with the Imperium is after the Heresey it was built to be fragmented by internal divisions so no one man could gain enough power to cause a large portion of the Imperium to suddenly turn traitor.

I'd expect that if the push was made in earnest against the Wolves, you'd see a number of the first founding chapters deciding that the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have gone too far (indeed, they would wonder if they are next as the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy and High Lords all compete for power with the Marines to some extent). Where the first founding chapters went, many of the latter chapters would go as well.

The war of the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition vs the Space Marines would be a poorly chosen one for all sides.

 Matt1785 wrote:

They have definitely drawn ire from countless quarters but they are still very needed. This discussion does make me face palm with the Wolves as Battle Brothers with the Inquisition. Ugh

Well, again, one of the members of the inquisition involved was from Fenris. I imagine that if a Fenrisian inquisitor requested aid from the wolves for a good cause, they'd be more than happy to give it. I always assume the allies matrix is meant to represent "the best" of circumstances. Sure, wolves would be desperate allies or allies of convenience with most inquisitors, perhaps, but in a "best case" scenario such as a Fenrisian inquisitor or an Ordos Xenos inquisitor (IIRC, it's stated the Ordos Xenos uses the wolves as leverage against other inquisitors because it has yet to draw their ire. Also, death watch wolves exist.), things would be just peachy.

For the record, if the Space Wolves were officially declared renegade, they'd be even more badass.

Jefffar wrote:
I'd expect that if the push was made in earnest against the Wolves, you'd see a number of the first founding chapters deciding that the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have gone too far (indeed, they would wonder if they are next as the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy and High Lords all compete for power with the Marines to some extent). Where the first founding chapters went, many of the latter chapters would go as well.

And yet, the Ecclesiarchy sent three SoB Orders into Fenrisian space where they warred with the Wolves for three weeks before deciding to withdraw. That sounds like an earnest push to me, and nobody was mentioned as intervening.

Though one would assume that the Wolves might have a few friends that'd help them out, apparently three Orders of Sororitas going after them apparently wasn't protested against.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Because the Space Wolves value human life, a rare trait in the Imperium. Logan Grimnar is one of the few people who undeniably fights for the good of mankind, rather than just for its survival.

Actually, while the new Space Wolves "try" to seem like that, Horus Heresy paints them as simple murderous dogs.

Did it really matter that they're a First Founding chapter, though? The Ecclesiarchy only pulled out because their attack wasn't making any real progress. At no point did the Ecclesiarchy feel that they should stop due to the Astartes Chapter they were fighting happening to be a First Founding one.

You'd think they'd just drop an Extermanatus on the Planet Fenris.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Actually, while the new Space Wolves "try" to seem like that, Horus Heresy paints them as simple murderous dogs.

I'm pretty sure the contrast between today's Space Wolves and the Horus Heresy ones is deliberate. IE, "Surprise! The wolves in the past were very different from what they are, today!" trick by the authors.

You'd think they'd just drop an Extermanatus on the Planet Fenris.

I'm not sure the Ecclesiarchy has the authority to declare Exterminatus. I don't recall ever hearing of an example of the Ecclesiarchy calling it in. Just inquisitors and space marine chapters.

Also, they ("they" being whoever has the authority to do it, since I'm not sure the Ecclesiarchy does) usually don't declare Exterminatus on a home planet just because the Space Marine chapter involved went rogue. For example, the home planets of the Relictors and the Sons of Malal are still part of the Imperium despite those Space Marine chapters being declared traitors.

Horus Heresy doesn't dictate who the chapters are now necessarily...

The Wolves are proud, they'd need a reason to call for help. They probably didn't see the Ecclesiarchy as enough of a threat to warrant it.

 Troike wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I'd expect that if the push was made in earnest against the Wolves, you'd see a number of the first founding chapters deciding that the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have gone too far (indeed, they would wonder if they are next as the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy and High Lords all compete for power with the Marines to some extent). Where the first founding chapters went, many of the latter chapters would go as well.

And yet, the Ecclesiarchy sent three SoB Orders into Fenrisian space where they warred with the Wolves for three weeks before deciding to withdraw. That sounds like an earnest push to me, and nobody was mentioned as intervening.

Though one would assume that the Wolves might have a few friends that'd help them out, apparently three Orders of Sororitas going after them apparently wasn't protested against.

They came to investigate officially and the Wolves opened fire when they showed up. It wasn't an attack . .. officially at least.

I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy were expecting to be allowed to make planet fall and investigate unopposed. At which point they could find evidence to officially declare the Wolves Heretics and Renegades and get the support necessary for a purge. They didn't expect the wolves to resist against that many Soritas. They also didn't expect to be fought to a standstill when the resistance occurred.

When the time came to chose to escalate it to an attack on Fenris, the Ecclesarchy backed off (probably with some not to subtle messages from certain Chapter Masters and probably a few Inquisitors promising harsh penalties for an escalation).

Plus, IF it were to come to a point that the wolves needed to be put down, I really don't think that there is any power in the Imperium that could do it. SW are probably the largest chapter, and I really don't think any amount of SoB could do it.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Actually, while the new Space Wolves "try" to seem like that, Horus Heresy paints them as simple murderous dogs.

I'm sure the same can be said about the Germans and the Japanese between the mid 1930s and 1945.

Black Templars are arguably larger, and more importantly they are fanatically loyal to the cult of the emperor (rather than to the emperor himself like the wolves). They would be the hatchetmen that Ecclesarchy and Inquistion would use.