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Fuel Siphon: Any flamer weapon (as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook) fired by a non-vehicle model within 2" of a Promethium Relay Pipe in the Shooting phase can change its weapon type from Assault to Heavy, or from Pistol to Heavy. If it does so, the weapon gains the Torrent special rule until the end of that phase.

If I have flamer troops within a transport that is within 2" of a Promethium Relay, can they benefit from the Fuel Siphon rule?

RAW and HIWPI both welcome here

RAW yes.
HIWPI no. Hard to take advantage of something like that without getting out of your ride and hooking up.

I'll argue No.

Assuming the rule quote is accurate, do you have a non-vehicle model within 2" of the Promethium Relay? Is the transport firing the flamer? No and No.

Questions I would ask myself before granting a model the benefit of the Promethium Relay:

1 - Is the model in question firing a flamer weapon?
2 - Is the model a non-vehicle model?
3 - Is the model within 2" of a Promethium Relay?
4 - Is the model eligible to fire their weapon?

Most are straightforward, but the one that may be debatable is #3. I don't have access to my rulebook but one would need to determine if a model inside a transport counts as being on the table for the purposes of rules that require proximity to be determined (e.g. Culexus Assassin weapon, Psychic Hoods, SiTW, etc.).

RAW - If they count as being within 2" of the relay (and satisfy 1,2, and 4) then they most likely benefit.

HIWPI - Seems a bit far-fetched, but one could argue any number of pseudo-science reasons to support it working. I don't think I'd have a problem with my opponent using it.

DoW

I am not at home at the moment, so the page quote is not one I can easily pull out, but the 'problem' of measuring the range is not one of the issues in play. Within the transport rules themselves is a single sentence giving us permission to measure ranges to the hull of the vehicle for all but one thing. That one exception is not related to measuring range to see if the embarked unit is close enough to trigger a special rule. Given that the only way to know if the embarked unit is within 3 inches, close enough to trigger the special rule, is to measure the range and permission exists to measure to the vehicle the only question we have to ask is the following:

Is the vehicle within 3 inches?

Cheers guys. Now what about the same question but with infantry inside a fortification instead of a transport? Would that change anything?

It is a debatable point, though the majority to appear to be on the side of 'Treat buildings exactly like Vehicles.' This stems from the fact we are informed that buildings follow 'aspects' of the vehicle rules without being told what this entails. It clearly doesn't mean 'all vehicle rules' as it goes ahead to state that certain rules can not be applied for obvious reasons such as movement. It also provides a few examples of rules that would apply to buildings, however it is obvious that these are just example and not a list either. That is the problem: it is an incomplete list which is always 'gray area' territory....

Personally I see it this way, as I am in the side stating to treat them like buildings: We have a sentence informing us that building use aspects of the vehicle rules. Even though it does not provide us with a clear list of what these 'aspects' are, it does give us permission to use vehicle rules for buildings. It would therefore be up to the opposition to provide us with a sentence stating we can not use vehicle rule X for a building. While there are some clear exceptions listed, this list does not have have all that much in the way of listed exceptions so the vast majority of vehicle rules will apply be default.

Including permission to measure to a 'vehicles' hull if you need to measure to the embarked unit within.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Cheers guys. Now what about the same question but with infantry inside a fortification instead of a transport? Would that change anything?

Is there a formation that allows you to take both a promethium relay and a fortification in which one can embark? From what I can tell, you can only take it by itself, or with a void shield. So for instance, a bastion and promethium relay couldn't happen, making this question moot.

There is more then a handful of ways to gain an additional fortification slot, one that comes to mind is being a 'defender' in one of the missions put forth in the Stronghold Assault book.

Ahh, good. I haven't read the missions yet. I still feel no to both vehicles and fortifications, since to embark you remove the unit from the table, so they aren't actually within 2" of of the pipeline

 deviantduck wrote:
Ahh, good. I haven't read the missions yet. I still feel no to both vehicles and fortifications, since to embark you remove the unit from the table, so they aren't actually within 2" of of the pipeline

But the vehicle rules explicitly allow you to measure to an embarked unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Ahh, good. I haven't read the missions yet. I still feel no to both vehicles and fortifications, since to embark you remove the unit from the table, so they aren't actually within 2" of of the pipeline

But the vehicle rules explicitly allow you to measure to an embarked unit.

Where is that rule in 6th? I could not find it.

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

Page 78, 2nd paragraph from the bottom, right side, last sentence.

Can Blind affect units in transports? Can a RP cancel a psychic power cast by a psyker in a transport in range?

Its all the same type of argument. Some just seem to make more or less sense than others.

RAW: Yes.
HIWPI: Why not? Its all in good fun anyways.

This is speculation, but units embarked in vehicles can't capture objectives nor benefit from objective bonuses. Wouldn't that be along similar lines?

 deviantduck wrote:
This is speculation, but units embarked in vehicles can't capture objectives nor benefit from objective bonuses. Wouldn't that be along similar lines?

They can't because the rules say they can't.
Do the Prom Relay rules say anything about having to own an objective?

 DogOfWar wrote:

3 - Is the model within 2" of a Promethium Relay?
4 - Is the model eligible to fire their weapon?

3, assuming an enclosed vehicle, is the relay in range of a fire point?

Haven't read the rules though, wording may be key.

rigeld2 wrote:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

Page 78, 2nd paragraph from the bottom, right side, last sentence.

Then you need to explain further, as this is irrelevant to this question.
(except for its shooting)

Is the relay on a vehicle/fort?

 fuusa wrote:

 DogOfWar wrote:

3 - Is the model within 2" of a Promethium Relay?
4 - Is the model eligible to fire their weapon?

3, assuming an enclosed vehicle, is the relay in range of a fire point?

Haven't read the rules though, wording may be key.

rigeld2 wrote:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

Page 78, 2nd paragraph from the bottom, right side, last sentence.

Then you need to explain further, as this is irrelevant to this question.
(except for its shooting)

You aren't measuring for its shooting. You're measuring for the distance to the Prom Relay.

But since the model isn't on the table, it can't be 2" away form the relay.

 deviantduck wrote:
But since the model isn't on the table, it can't be 2" away form the relay.

Except for the rule that allows you to measure to a transports hull.

rigeld2 wrote:

You aren't measuring for its shooting. You're measuring for the distance to the Prom Relay.

If you were pre-measuring it, then yes.
But, if you don't, when you need to prove that you are in range of the relay (to benefit from it), you would have nominated a unit to shoot.

This means that it is now part of a units shooting attack and therefore can only be measured from a fire point (assuming an enclosed vehicle).

 deviantduck wrote:
But since the model isn't on the table, it can't be 2" away form the relay.

The model is not on the table, nor is the unit, but both are abstractly in the transport.

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

You aren't measuring for its shooting. You're measuring for the distance to the Prom Relay.

If you were pre-measuring it, then yes.
But, if you don't, when you need to prove that you are in range of the relay (to benefit from it), you would have nominated a unit to shoot.

This means that it is now part of a units shooting attack and therefore can only be measured from a fire point (assuming an enclosed vehicle).

Now you're shooting the relay?
If you're casting a witchfire at a Tyranid, do you measure to the hull or fire point for Shadows in the Warp? Cite rules.

The Relay measurement is never part of the shooting attack. I know because the steps for a shooting attack are spelled out and the Relay doesn't change any of them.

rigeld2 wrote:
Now you're shooting the relay?

No, when you use the syphon (according to the op, it is an option, not mandatory), you are firing, it becomes part of your shooting attack, because it changes it.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you're casting a witchfire at a Tyranid, do you measure to the hull or fire point for Shadows in the Warp? Cite rules.

Disingenuous red-herring attempt.

rigeld2 wrote:
The Relay measurement is never part of the shooting attack. I know because the steps for a shooting attack are spelled out and the Relay doesn't change any of them.

Ok, then. lets assume I don't pre-measure any ranges with a unit, outside a vehicle with a syphon, one model has a flamer, the rest boltguns.
Is the model in 2", don't know, but I think so.
I nominate this unit to shoot, my target unit is, I would guess 12" away, is it in range of my flamer?

= I don't know, but I think not, so to be sure, I want to use the syphon to torrent it.
Do I now need to prove that I can?
= yes, so I measure.

It turns out I am within 2" and so, after I began my shooting attack, the profile of my flamer changed. In this case, its range changed after I began the shooting attack.

Fuel Siphon: Any flamer weapon (as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook) fired by a non-vehicle model within 2" of a Promethium Relay Pipe in the Shooting phase can change its weapon type from Assault to Heavy, or from Pistol to Heavy. If it does so, the weapon gains the Torrent special rule until the end of that phase.

So, for this, I nominated a unit to fire and so began its shooting attack.
As I was unsure of the range for the flamer, I decided to use the syphon and changed my weapon type and gained torrent.
This has happened because I am firing, not just because I can fire,

@fuusa
There is a serious problem with your statements.
1) In no way whatsoever does this rule state that it must draw LoS or that it is a shooting attack in and of itself.
2) What if there is a barrage weapon in the unit? According to you; you must have LoS to declare a shooting attack. How do barrage weapons fire in your games?

BTW in terms of fluff it makes sense that you are hooking your weapons to the pipes with tubes so as to siphon off promethium. (aka why they become heavy and the name of the rule) Therefore it would seem to be just as easy to run tubes from the vehicle as from ground troops.

Sorry, ansacs, but I don't follow your logic, can you explain???
Are you saying that a flamer does not need los?
The syphon is not a shooting attack, it is part of another models shooting, the other model being subject to "X" rules.

Let me make sure I understand your logic. If a model wants to shoot it's flamer as a torrent then they must both be within 2" and have LoS to the pipes? Is that correct?

If that is your interpretation then you have several problems with your logic.
1) This is a permissive rules set and you should do exactly what the rules tell you too. They tell you to allow a model within 2" a special fire mode when they fire a flamer. They do not even mention LoS and so any effort to inject LoS requires you to add to the rule or to try using the shooting rules for a special rule that is not a shooting attack...

Am I following what your logic for this rule is?

The Transport rules state, that if you need to measure to and from an embarked unit, you measure to the Hull.
You need to measure to the unit for them to use the relay.
The unit might be firing out of a FirePoint, so their shooting must measure from there, but there is absolutely no reason why measuring to the unit to see if they're in range of the relay must be done from a firing point. Non at all.

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Now you're shooting the relay?

No, when you use the syphon (according to the op, it is an option, not mandatory), you are firing, it becomes part of your shooting attack, because it changes it.

Irrelevant statement ahoy! Seriously. Your are correct, but your statement means nothing to the matter at hand.

rigeld2 wrote:
If you're casting a witchfire at a Tyranid, do you measure to the hull or fire point for Shadows in the Warp? Cite rules.

Disingenuous red-herring attempt.

Not at all. It's the exact same situation.

rigeld2 wrote:
The Relay measurement is never part of the shooting attack. I know because the steps for a shooting attack are spelled out and the Relay doesn't change any of them.

Ok, then. lets assume I don't pre-measure any ranges with a unit, outside a vehicle with a syphon, one model has a flamer, the rest boltguns.
Is the model in 2", don't know, but I think so.
I nominate this unit to shoot, my target unit is, I would guess 12" away, is it in range of my flamer?

Since you're allowed to measure anything at any time, premeasuring or not is irrelevant. I can measure for movement during your shooting phase if I want to. So you're pretend scenario makes literally no sense.

It turns out I am within 2" and so, after I began my shooting attack, the profile of my flamer changed. In this case, its range changed after I began the shooting attack.

Again, what's the relevancy? Who cares if it alters your shooting profile? It is not, itself, a shooting attack and therefore not restricted to firing points.

As I was unsure of the range for the flamer, I decided to use the syphon and changed my weapon type and gained torrent.
This has happened because I am firing, not just because I can fire,

You agree that using the Relay is not a shooting attack, correct?
You agree that for everything but the units shooting I can measure to the transports hull and it's the same as measuring to the unit, correct?

 ansacs wrote:
Let me make sure I understand your logic. If a model wants to shoot it's flamer as a torrent then they must both be within 2" and have LoS to the pipes? Is that correct?

Ah, I see.
No, the model must be within 2" of the syphon and have los to the target (not the syphon).

rigeld2 wrote:
Not at all. It's the exact same situation.

Disagree.
What you are trying to do, is use a third party's special rule, to justify measuring to a model, by measuring to its unit, in a different manner to which the model will measure to the tyranid.
This will shift the location (potentially) of the firing model, only from the outside perspective, it will not change the models firing position (which has to be at the fire point).

rigeld2 wrote:
Since you're allowed to measure anything at any time, premeasuring or not is irrelevant. I can measure for movement during your shooting phase if I want to. So you're pretend scenario makes literally no sense.

So, not pre-measuring anything (and possibly everything) is non-sensical then?
Is it illegal, must it be done?

If I do not pre-measure a charge move, am I at fault somehow?
After I roll, do I not have to measure in order to prove I am in range?

rigeld2 wrote:
Again, what's the relevancy? Who cares if it alters your shooting profile? It is not, itself, a shooting attack and therefore not restricted to firing points.

So, if after I start a shooting attack and my profile is then altered, the factor that alters it, is not part of the shooting attack?

rigeld2 wrote:
You agree that using the Relay is not a shooting attack, correct?

Using the relay is part of your shooting attack, it can only be used as part of a shooting attack, it alters the profile of your shooting attack as you fire. If you do not fire, the relay has no-effect.

rigeld2 wrote:
You agree that for everything but the units shooting I can measure to the transports hull and it's the same as measuring to the unit, correct?

I have demonstrated the the use of the relay, can only happen as part of a units shooting.
By declaring that the individual using the fire point is a model and that some shooting will involve measuring from a model (a beam perhaps) you are identifying where that model is, abstractly, within the transport.

Any measuring, involving that particular models shooting must come from the fire point it is using, if it is firing.
So, if that individual model fires and, as a result of firing, can be measured from, it can only be from a firing point.
The syphon requires a model to actually fire, and be in range of it, which can only be done from a firing point (assuming an embarked firer).

You can measure ranges to/from an embarked unit by measuring to/from the vehicles hull, except for its (that is, the units) shooting.
So, the only time we have permission to do this is for something other that the (embarked) units shooting.
The only time that the location of the syphon matters, is if a flamer armed model actually fires within 2" of it.
At that point, we can only measure to/from a fire point.

 fuusa wrote:
I have demonstrated the the use of the relay, can only happen as part of a units shooting.
By declaring that the individual using the fire point is a model and that some shooting will involve measuring from a model (a beam perhaps) you are identifying where that model is, abstractly, within the transport.

Any measuring, involving that particular models shooting must come from the fire point it is using, if it is firing.
So, if that individual model fires and, as a result of firing, can be measured from, it can only be from a firing point.
The syphon requires a model to actually fire, and be in range of it, which can only be done from a firing point (assuming an embarked firer).

You can measure ranges to/from an embarked unit by measuring to/from the vehicles hull, except for its (that is, the units) shooting.
So, the only time we have permission to do this is for something other that the (embarked) units shooting.
The only time that the location of the syphon matters, is if a flamer armed model actually fires within 2" of it.
At that point, we can only measure to/from a fire point.

This is completely without rules support though.
A units shooting is measured from a FirePoint. That's it. No more no less.
No rule ever lets you measure to a FirePoint.
When checking the range if the relay to the model, there are existing rules to do this (and not one of them involve a FirePoint).