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I have been having a debate with another poster over the Look Out Sir and Focus Fire rules. This other poster claims that when you Focus Fire on a unit, specifically a Rune Priest biker in a unit of White Scar bikers, that the Rune Priest would then not get to use Look Out Sir. His reasoning is that Focus Fire states that wounds can only be allocated to models at stated cover save or worse. My argument is that yes, the wounds are allocated against the model with a worse cover save, but then has a chance to reallocate those wounds that were placed on him using Look Out Sir. Also, I feel that a precedent has been set by page 5 of the GK FAQ concerning the VIndicare where the FAQ specifically denies LOS. In conclusion I feel that unless it is explicitly stated otherwise, you get LOS. Yalls thoughts.

I think you're right. I think if focus fire was to disallow LOS then it would state such.

Here's a question, I don't have my rule book with me, when does LOS take place? I thought it was after any saving throws have been made?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I have the rule in front of me. It says "When a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated to one of your characters..."

So, you focus fire on the priest, he suffers a wound and fails his armour save, that's an unsaved wound - then roll for LOS. This way you are not benefiting from the white scars superior cover save, but you are allowing look out sir (of which there is no reason for not allowing it!) so in this instance it's a middle ground, a best of both worlds.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Here's a question, I don't have my rule book with me, when does LOS take place? I thought it was after any saving throws have been made?

It's been FAQ'd to be before saves, otherwise a terminator character takes 2+ saves and then LOS! to a Scout.

As to the OP's question, you have FF saying you can't allocate to the others and LOS! saying you can without saying which takes precidence.
Even without involving FF, can you Look Out Sir! to models out of Line Of Sight? Same reasoning.

The RAW may be "no". How I play it (and how I believe it to be intended) is "yes".

 Quanar wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Here's a question, I don't have my rule book with me, when does LOS take place? I thought it was after any saving throws have been made?

It's been FAQ'd to be before saves, otherwise a terminator character takes 2+ saves and then LOS! to a Scout.

As to the OP's question, you have FF saying you can't allocate to the others and LOS! saying you can without saying which takes precidence.
Even without involving FF, can you Look Out Sir! to models out of Line Of Sight? Same reasoning.

The RAW may be "no". How I play it (and how I believe it to be intended) is "yes".

You can LOS! To models out of line of sight...

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
You can LOS! To models out of line of sight...

Is that in the BRB? I'm away from references at the moment. If that's so I'd say even more of a case for "yes" with regard to re-allocating FF wounds.

 Quanar wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
You can LOS! To models out of line of sight...

Is that in the BRB? I'm away from references at the moment. If that's so I'd say even more of a case for "yes" with regard to re-allocating FF wounds.

Only requirements are being a member of the same unit and being within 6 inches.

Yup, it's written in the rule book, it specifically states a model can be out of line of sight, and still make a LOS save!

Whole lots of incorrect information here.
1. Quanar, your terminator/scout example is wrong. Even before the errata, you would have had to use mixed saves.
2. Mywick, it's not a model from the same unit within 6", it's closest model within the unit.
3. If you choose to Focus Fire, wounds cannot be allocated to a model with a better cover save. LOS is wound allocation and as such you would still need to follow all rules for wound allocation, unless specified otherwise (such as line of sight).

But the wound has already been allocated? LOS! Just allows you to reallocate it to a different model! No restriction on the save required to be the same or worse in any instance.

 Happyjew wrote:

2. Mywick, it's not a model from the same unit within 6", it's closest model within the unit.

I'd suggest rereading the Look out sir rule. You have to be within 6 inches and in the same unit.

The closest model is taking it always ... thats correct. If its not within 6 inches its not eligible even if its the closest.

Read the FAQ, which changes the rule

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Read the FAQ, which changes the rule

Which part of the faq changed the 6 inches part. I dont see it.

Kinda confusing since the 6 inches thing remains unchanged in the first sentence of the column and still contains the 6 inches restriction even if you change the second sentence in the second bullet point. So how i see it theres stll a 6 inches restriction since the first sentence in the column says that you have to be within 6 and remains unchanged after faq.

Or am i still missing something?

 Happyjew wrote:
Whole lots of incorrect information here.
1. Quanar, your terminator/scout example is wrong. Even before the errata, you would have had to use mixed saves.
2. Mywick, it's not a model from the same unit within 6", it's closest model within the unit.
3. If you choose to Focus Fire, wounds cannot be allocated to a model with a better cover save. LOS is wound allocation and as such you would still need to follow all rules for wound allocation, unless specified otherwise (such as line of sight).

LOS is not wound allocation. The order of operations is a wound is allocated to a specific model(s), THEN LOS allows you to "resolve" that wound against another model in the unit. So no you do not follow the rules for allocation on LOS because it is not an allocation of wounds, as it has already been allocated.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Whole lots of incorrect information here.
1. Quanar, your terminator/scout example is wrong. Even before the errata, you would have had to use mixed saves.
2. Mywick, it's not a model from the same unit within 6", it's closest model within the unit.
3. If you choose to Focus Fire, wounds cannot be allocated to a model with a better cover save. LOS is wound allocation and as such you would still need to follow all rules for wound allocation, unless specified otherwise (such as line of sight).

LOS is not wound allocation. The order of operations is a wound is allocated to a specific model(s), THEN LOS allows you to "resolve" that wound against another model in the unit. So no you do not follow the rules for allocation on LOS because it is not an allocation of wounds, as it has already been allocated.

Incorrect.

The LOS rules themselves refer to it as reallocation.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Whole lots of incorrect information here.
1. Quanar, your terminator/scout example is wrong. Even before the errata, you would have had to use mixed saves.
2. Mywick, it's not a model from the same unit within 6", it's closest model within the unit.
3. If you choose to Focus Fire, wounds cannot be allocated to a model with a better cover save. LOS is wound allocation and as such you would still need to follow all rules for wound allocation, unless specified otherwise (such as line of sight).

LOS is not wound allocation. The order of operations is a wound is allocated to a specific model(s), THEN LOS allows you to "resolve" that wound against another model in the unit. So no you do not follow the rules for allocation on LOS because it is not an allocation of wounds, as it has already been allocated.

Incorrect.

The LOS rules themselves refer to it as reallocation.

Order of operations still place LOS after wounds are allocated to a model. So you can then reallocate them. Nothing in the rules state that you cannot. Since we are using a permissive rule-set and it is not stated you cannot--as in the Vindicare FAQ--then you are permitted to.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Whole lots of incorrect information here.
1. Quanar, your terminator/scout example is wrong. Even before the errata, you would have had to use mixed saves.
2. Mywick, it's not a model from the same unit within 6", it's closest model within the unit.
3. If you choose to Focus Fire, wounds cannot be allocated to a model with a better cover save. LOS is wound allocation and as such you would still need to follow all rules for wound allocation, unless specified otherwise (such as line of sight).

LOS is not wound allocation. The order of operations is a wound is allocated to a specific model(s), THEN LOS allows you to "resolve" that wound against another model in the unit. So no you do not follow the rules for allocation on LOS because it is not an allocation of wounds, as it has already been allocated.

Incorrect.

The LOS rules themselves refer to it as reallocation.

Order of operations still place LOS after wounds are allocated to a model. So you can then reallocate them. Nothing in the rules state that you cannot. Since we are using a permissive rule-set and it is not stated you cannot--as in the Vindicare FAQ--then you are permitted to.

The FAQ changes that order of operation. And permission is denied in the focus fire rules.

As it is, the poll would have been better if it listed the three possibilities. I think LOS can reallocate the hit, but only to models with the same cover save. Which is the option left out of the simple yes/no poll question.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
But the wound has already been allocated? LOS! Just allows you to reallocate it to a different model! No restriction on the save required to be the same or worse in any instance.

Reallocation is still a allocation, if you LOS and then have the wound allocated to a model with a better cover save you are breaking the RAW rules of focus fire. You are not breaking any rules not allowing LOS as LOS has exceptions to normal allocation called out, i.e out of line of sigh, out of range etc, cover save is not mentioned there.

RAW look out sir during the example you posted is iilegal, most people dont play it that way.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Whole lots of incorrect information here.
1. Quanar, your terminator/scout example is wrong. Even before the errata, you would have had to use mixed saves.
2. Mywick, it's not a model from the same unit within 6", it's closest model within the unit.
3. If you choose to Focus Fire, wounds cannot be allocated to a model with a better cover save. LOS is wound allocation and as such you would still need to follow all rules for wound allocation, unless specified otherwise (such as line of sight).

LOS is not wound allocation. The order of operations is a wound is allocated to a specific model(s), THEN LOS allows you to "resolve" that wound against another model in the unit. So no you do not follow the rules for allocation on LOS because it is not an allocation of wounds, as it has already been allocated.

Incorrect.

The LOS rules themselves refer to it as reallocation.

Order of operations still place LOS after wounds are allocated to a model. So you can then reallocate them. Nothing in the rules state that you cannot. Since we are using a permissive rule-set and it is not stated you cannot--as in the Vindicare FAQ--then you are permitted to.

The FAQ changes that order of operation. And permission is denied in the focus fire rules.

As it is, the poll would have been better if it listed the three possibilities. I think LOS can reallocate the hit, but only to models with the same cover save. Which is the option left out of the simple yes/no poll question.

Tell me where this is in the FAQ. I have the FAQ open in front of me and Focus Fire is never even mentioned. You are blatantly making things up and permission is not denied in the focus fire rules. Look Out Sir is never mentioned in the Focus Fire entry. Do not make things up to benefit your argument--it only kills its integrity.

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Whole lots of incorrect information here.
1. Quanar, your terminator/scout example is wrong. Even before the errata, you would have had to use mixed saves.
2. Mywick, it's not a model from the same unit within 6", it's closest model within the unit.
3. If you choose to Focus Fire, wounds cannot be allocated to a model with a better cover save. LOS is wound allocation and as such you would still need to follow all rules for wound allocation, unless specified otherwise (such as line of sight).

LOS is not wound allocation. The order of operations is a wound is allocated to a specific model(s), THEN LOS allows you to "resolve" that wound against another model in the unit. So no you do not follow the rules for allocation on LOS because it is not an allocation of wounds, as it has already been allocated.

Incorrect.

The LOS rules themselves refer to it as reallocation.

Order of operations still place LOS after wounds are allocated to a model. So you can then reallocate them. Nothing in the rules state that you cannot. Since we are using a permissive rule-set and it is not stated you cannot--as in the Vindicare FAQ--then you are permitted to.

The FAQ changes that order of operation. And permission is denied in the focus fire rules.

As it is, the poll would have been better if it listed the three possibilities. I think LOS can reallocate the hit, but only to models with the same cover save. Which is the option left out of the simple yes/no poll question.

Tell me where this is in the FAQ. I have the FAQ open in front of me and Focus Fire is never even mentioned. You are blatantly making things up and permission is not denied in the focus fire rules. Look Out Sir is never mentioned in the Focus Fire entry. Do not make things up to benefit your argument--it only kills its integrity.

Reeeaaaallly?

Try the first page of the FAQ, right after it says "Pg 16, Shooting Phase, Look out Sir!.... Its the second bullet point..... But of course you have it in front of you and its never mentioned.....

And to your second point. Permission is denied, as you may not allocate wounds to any model with a better coversave than that which you focus fired...


Looks like your zero for two.....

If that was true, you could never allocate to out of LOS, because out of LOS models have better cover saves, generally.

I think it still comes down to one says you can and one says you can't. If you have to, roll off.

Focus Fire does not deny LOS.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Focus Fire does not deny LOS.

I agree, but FF will deny allocation of that wound to any model with a better cover save:
p18: "Your opponent can only allocate Wounds to models with a cover save equal to or worse than the value stated." This statement stays true during that entire shooting phase. For all shots of the unit that chose FF.

LoS grants permission to do it, after that, because it says it can even be a model out of LOS (which would pretty much always have a better cover save than the person standing out in the open).

 Spellbound wrote:
LoS grants permission to do it, after that, because it says it can even be a model out of LOS (which would pretty much always have a better cover save than the person standing out in the open).

Not true. The person out of LoS has a cover save based on what they're hiding behind. If the visible models are in area terrain and the invisible one is behind a hedge, for example, the saves would be the same.
Similar to one that is obscured by a Ruin and one that has LoS blocked by a Ruin - same save.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Whole lots of incorrect information here.
1. Quanar, your terminator/scout example is wrong. Even before the errata, you would have had to use mixed saves.
2. Mywick, it's not a model from the same unit within 6", it's closest model within the unit.
3. If you choose to Focus Fire, wounds cannot be allocated to a model with a better cover save. LOS is wound allocation and as such you would still need to follow all rules for wound allocation, unless specified otherwise (such as line of sight).

LOS is not wound allocation. The order of operations is a wound is allocated to a specific model(s), THEN LOS allows you to "resolve" that wound against another model in the unit. So no you do not follow the rules for allocation on LOS because it is not an allocation of wounds, as it has already been allocated.

Incorrect.

The LOS rules themselves refer to it as reallocation.

Order of operations still place LOS after wounds are allocated to a model. So you can then reallocate them. Nothing in the rules state that you cannot. Since we are using a permissive rule-set and it is not stated you cannot--as in the Vindicare FAQ--then you are permitted to.

The FAQ changes that order of operation. And permission is denied in the focus fire rules.

As it is, the poll would have been better if it listed the three possibilities. I think LOS can reallocate the hit, but only to models with the same cover save. Which is the option left out of the simple yes/no poll question.

Tell me where this is in the FAQ. I have the FAQ open in front of me and Focus Fire is never even mentioned. You are blatantly making things up and permission is not denied in the focus fire rules. Look Out Sir is never mentioned in the Focus Fire entry. Do not make things up to benefit your argument--it only kills its integrity.

Reeeaaaallly?

Try the first page of the FAQ, right after it says "Pg 16, Shooting Phase, Look out Sir!.... Its the second bullet point..... But of course you have it in front of you and its never mentioned.....

And to your second point. Permission is denied, as you may not allocate wounds to any model with a better coversave than that which you focus fired...


Looks like your zero for two.....

I said "Focus Fire" never appears and the part you are referencing says "resolve" the wound not allocate it as it has already been allocated. I am not wrong and you are not careful with your reading. Try taking time and thought before you respond instead of just spouting off and being rude. Calm down and actually bring something to the argument that supports your point, not just supposition.

The discussion was that wounds used to be able to be reallocated after a failed save. That was the way the original LOS! rule was worded.

The FAQ changed that order by removing the "unsaved wounds" part.

That's what the discussion about the changed order of operation was about. If you are talking about something else, then that explains why you were having problems. People were talking about one thing, and you were talking about something else.

And yes, FF denies permission to resolve wound to any model with a better cover save. The rules for focus fire state you are to ignore any model with a better cover save.

I do think you could LOS! to any model that does have the same cover save or worse as that would not break any of the focus fire restrictions.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
The discussion was that wounds used to be able to be reallocated after a failed save. That was the way the original LOS! rule was worded.

The FAQ changed that order by removing the "unsaved wounds" part.

That's what the discussion about the changed order of operation was about. If you are talking about something else, then that explains why you were having problems. People were talking about one thing, and you were talking about something else.

And yes, FF denies permission to resolve wound to any model with a better cover save. The rules for focus fire state you are to ignore any model with a better cover save.

I do think you could LOS! to any model that does have the same cover save or worse as that would not break any of the focus fire restrictions.

It does not deny permission to resolve, it denies permission to allocate. LOS happens after wounds are allocated before saves are made; this is the order of operations I was talking about. Nothing in FF in the rule book or FAQ explicitly denies LOS, as the Vindicare entry does. Also, you cannot target or allocate wounds to models out of range or line of sight, but LOS can still have wounds resolved onto models that are.

LOS! uses both resolve and reallocate within it's own definition and in most places in the rule book refers to it as reallocation, making them the same thing. Also the GK assassin FAQ doesn't deny LOS, nor is it an addition rule, it states that he is still allowed to allocate the wound after his opponent makes and passes a Look out sir roll. That FAQ doesn't even make sense if Look out sir isn't wound allocation. The only part that is actually being FAQ'd is that when you would normally allocate to the closest model to the character the Vindacare's deadshot is kicking in again and letting him allocate to any model of his choice.

Look out sir also explicitly gives you permission to allocate out of range and line of sight (well it has it own range) but does not give blanket permission to ignore all allocation restrictions.

And how does work for Focus fire? I focus fire on the character out in the open while the rest of his unit is behind the defense line and the go to ground getting a 2+ cover save and tank all the wounds for him? what sense does that make they are jumping out to save him why do they get a cover save if I'm focus firing out in the open? Perhaps they can look out sir but would have to give up their cover save? except there isn't a mechanic for that...

Focus fire prevents either player from allocating wounds to a cover save better than stated. When you go to look out sir and all the models in range have a better cover save this creates a conflict. Trying to say it's not allocation it's reallocation seems a bit strange to me but the GK FAQ that you brought up says otherwise.

I'll give you another question to chew on if I have multiple characters in a unit and one is in a challenge can I have the characters outside the challenge look out sir to the character in the challenge? (the challenge mechanic specific denies the other direction) The only thing preventing you from doing so is the allocation restriction, but hey it's reallocation right so why would this be any different?

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
The discussion was that wounds used to be able to be reallocated after a failed save. That was the way the original LOS! rule was worded.

The FAQ changed that order by removing the "unsaved wounds" part.

That's what the discussion about the changed order of operation was about. If you are talking about something else, then that explains why you were having problems. People were talking about one thing, and you were talking about something else.

And yes, FF denies permission to resolve wound to any model with a better cover save. The rules for focus fire state you are to ignore any model with a better cover save.

I do think you could LOS! to any model that does have the same cover save or worse as that would not break any of the focus fire restrictions.

It does not deny permission to resolve, it denies permission to allocate. LOS happens after wounds are allocated before saves are made; this is the order of operations I was talking about. Nothing in FF in the rule book or FAQ explicitly denies LOS, as the Vindicare entry does. Also, you cannot target or allocate wounds to models out of range or line of sight, but LOS can still have wounds resolved onto models that are.

Here's another relevant line: (I'll bold the key parts)
"This is a good way of causing casualties, but means you have no chance at all of killing the models with better cover than those you have focused on. Wounds caused by Focus Fire must still follow the normal allocation order. You ignore the models whose cover saves are better than what you've focused on."

Sure doesn't sound like you can allocate to models with better cover to me..........

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

POKEYtheBIG wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
The discussion was that wounds used to be able to be reallocated after a failed save. That was the way the original LOS! rule was worded.

The FAQ changed that order by removing the "unsaved wounds" part.

That's what the discussion about the changed order of operation was about. If you are talking about something else, then that explains why you were having problems. People were talking about one thing, and you were talking about something else.

And yes, FF denies permission to resolve wound to any model with a better cover save. The rules for focus fire state you are to ignore any model with a better cover save.

I do think you could LOS! to any model that does have the same cover save or worse as that would not break any of the focus fire restrictions.

It does not deny permission to resolve, it denies permission to allocate. LOS happens after wounds are allocated before saves are made; this is the order of operations I was talking about. Nothing in FF in the rule book or FAQ explicitly denies LOS, as the Vindicare entry does. Also, you cannot target or allocate wounds to models out of range or line of sight, but LOS can still have wounds resolved onto models that are.

Here's another relevant line: (I'll bold the key parts)
"This is a good way of causing casualties, but means you have no chance at all of killing the models with better cover than those you have focused on. Wounds caused by Focus Fire must still follow the normal allocation order. You ignore the models whose cover saves are better than what you've focused on."

Sure doesn't sound like you can allocate to models with better cover to me..........

You also have no chance of killing models out of range or line of sight, but LOS! allows the player being shot at to resolve wounds against models that are. The "you" is the firing player. Also, I am completely with Kisada II on not allowing the higher cover save on the model the wound is being resolved against as this mechanic represents said model diving into the line of fire; which is why models out of range or line of sight can have wounds resolved against them. I also agree that this mechanic is not in place. In a friendly I would not expect the higher cover save, just likei allow my opponents to take cover saves from my grav on vehicles.