Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Last night, I was looking an an amazing blog by Imperial Templari, in which he converted 15mm sci-fi and historical minis into 40k stuff. (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/454655.page) He really got me thinking about trying to shrink 40k down to 15mm size. I think it would give the chance to fix a couple of scaling problems in 40k, as well as allow much bigger battles to be played out on smaller tables. I'd like to propose my changes to the 40k rule set to fit 15mm better, along with fix a couple of problems that are prevalent in the current system. I hope this will become a discussion that will lead to a concise set of rules to allow this scaling change.

Note: I put this in general discussion, as I don't really see this thread as a proposed rule change. I feel like it should be more a discussion about converting the 40k system into 15mm. However, if the mods think I'm wrong, please move it to the appropriate forum.

Modeling changes:
All models shrunk down from 28mm heroic to 15mm
Base sizes need to change
- I am unsure how to convert these changes appropriately, other than just eyeballing it.
Try to scale up the tanks to look proper next to the infantry
- One of the things that bothers me with 40k is the hero scale. I think if we are switching to a 15mm scale, the vehicles should be redone to fit within that. A rhino should actually be able to carry 10 marines.

Measuring changes:
15mm (measured to eye level) is about 5 1/2 ft
Table length = about 5000 ft by 3300 ft (still the same 6'x4')
Movement range = 8 cm (about 45 ft)
- This is same conversion rate as 40k currently has. I feel like the movement range might want to be moved up to 10 cm (a little over 50ft), but I kept it the same for now. I would appreciate it if anyone with knowledge on combat movement speed for troops in WW2 or modern.
Current boltgun accuracy range = about 150 ft, proposed = 80 cm (300 ft)
- One of the biggest problems with 40k is the distortion of range, as it has naturally been made shorter to fit the skirmish style game it was previously. Converted to life size, this would mean that a boltgun would only have an accurate range of 150 ft. Personally, that seems really short to me. I think doubling the range would make it more accurate without giving too much of an advantage to shooting.

Major rule changes:
Movement phase: Move or Take Aim (can reroll misses in shooting)
- This is a personal change. I think phases should be viewed as periods of time, rather than specific actions. If a squad doesn't want to move, it wouldn't waste its time just standing around. They would be preparing to shoot, reloading, picking targets, etc.
Tanks only have front armor and side armor
- This is based off of the FoW system, which I think is necessary at this scale. Front vs Side vs Rear armor can already cause a lot of arguments at the 28mm scale. I propose that vehicles instead have front armor (obviously the strongest, meant to face towards the enemy) and side armor (similar stats to rear armor, weaker on non-assault vehicles like land raiders).
Running is a constant 8cm
- Random range running doesn't really make sense to me. It should double your movement, like marching in WHF. The rate you run shouldn't be effected unless you are in terrain, which 40k has mechanics to address already
Assaults continue until a group is wiped or flees
- This is also similar to the FoW system. I wanted to give something back to assault groups, as it will be harder to close range at this scale with the proposed changes to range. This will make fights much more brutal. However, these changes would not effect vehicles that do not fight.
Cover is a negative modifier to shooting (soft cover -1, hard cover – 2)
- This comes from WHF. Instead of having 3 different possible saves like 40k, cover should make it harder to hit you in the first place. Soft cover would be area terrain like woods, hills, etc. Hard cover would be ruins and other building types.
Infiltrating units can either be revealed or discovered when an enemy unit moves within range
- FoW has a system that allows infiltrating units to ambush enemies from reserve.I think this mechanic would add nicely to 15mm 40k.

Possible ideas:
Armor saves moving back to something like 2nd edition
- Armor saves are effected by S (S5 = -1 to AS). AP have certain levels that provide more negatives (AP5+ = no bonus, AP3-4 = -1 AS, AP 1-2 = -2 AS)
Armor saves move back to 2d6
- would provide a wider variety of armor and make terminator/power armor more like its supposed to be (could be very controversial, as all armor saves would have to be converted, which would lead to a lot of arguing)

Does this sound like a good idea, or am I out of my mind? I'd love to start a debate and work on polishing these rules if anyone is interested in a 15mm 40k game (or just trying to make a better rule set in general). I'll edit this post as ideas are added or removed. Let me know where I messed up

Interesting, looks good to me, I'm more a modeller/painter than rules writer, try it and see how it goes.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/450719.page

I'll leave that here, that's something even smaller

 Lobukia wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/450719.page
I'll leave that here, that's something even smaller

Thanks for the link Lobuki. That was a really interesting read. One thing I noticed was that they also struggled with scale.

When we started Pocket the problem of the scale was clearly the most important, so we discussed it a lot. I would be insincere if I was to say that we did not consider the use of "artificial" measurements to make everything easier. I remember one person even came up with the idea of simply assuming that 1" is 1cm, and play using 6mm miniatures.
We discarded it for two reasons, but one being the most important: the more difference between the scale of the models and the scale of their movements, the larger is the impact of the model size on the gamplay. In the scaling we report on the website, everything keeps the right scale assumed by the rulebook, thus there is no change whatsoever on the gameplay.

But let's take the extreme case of 1cm = 1"
Your SM in a unit will be in choerency if they are within 2cm of at least another SM; this means that you can actually put a Rhino (1.5cm long) between two Space Marine in the same unit, and the unit wtill retain its coherency. A bit weird. If you try you will see that more and more bizarre situations come up, involving range of weapons, radius of templates, cover and so on.

In your scaling system you have a smaller degree of the same effect, since all the distances are slightly increased (the effect is more sensible on longer distances)

I also found this FAQ interesting.

Q: What about a larger scale for Pocket? Something between 10 and 15mm?
A: That, would be awesome. The right compromise between size and portability, and all the fantastic miniature details! Sadly, there is no way to make WH40K easily in such scale. Some people have managed to make one or two armies, but they were completely proxed and definitely not reproducible given the low availability of the miniatures they used. To them all our admiration. To those who want an easier alternative, stick to 6mm, you're in the right place.

Hopefully, I can find the right medium with this scale for detail, gaming, and space.