Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok so here's the situation, I play eldar, say I have a unit of 3 jetbikes sitting right in front of my wraithknight. I believe they cover ~25% of the model vertically and 100% horizontally. So is my wraithknight getting a cover save from enemy fire from the jetbike unit?

Also since he can easily see over the jetbikes, are the jetbikes giving the enemy a cover save from the wraithknight? I guess the jetbikes could always just scoot in front of the wraithknight after he shoots in the assault phase to make this kind of a moot point but I'd like to know anyways
Thanks!

A picture would bring it out nicely, but you are correct.

If the Jetbikes cover more than 25%, he gets a cover save.

Being a Vehicle, you aim down the barrel of his gun. If the Jetbike are level with the gun, the enemy gets a save. If the gun is clearly above, then they do not.

This allows TFG situations though, and i know because i play Adepta Sororitas, who's Exorcist tank measures LoS and Range from the top of the Organ barels, about 2" above the Rhino Chassis. So having LoS over a 3" Wall to an enemy make the enemy unable to target you (Gun barrels are not a valid target).

That is why a few Local areas have a bit of a "you get what I get" approach.
If you get cover from your Jet-bikes, the enemy gets cover too.

Wraithknight is not a vehicle, its jump MC.

 humanas wrote:
Wraithknight is not a vehicle, its jump MC.

^
Does that change anything?

Rx8Speed wrote:

 humanas wrote:
Wraithknight is not a vehicle, its jump MC.

^
Does that change anything?

Depends on how you read/play the rules. Some folks say intervening models need to obscure 25% to grant a cover save, some say they only need 1% to grant a cover save. (for non-vehicle targets.)

Rx8Speed wrote:

 humanas wrote:
Wraithknight is not a vehicle, its jump MC.

^
Does that change anything?

It matters because Vehicles do not benefit from the "shooting through other models" method of gaining a cover save. For non-vehicle models, including Monstrous Creatures, if you are firing between models of an intervening unit, the unit you're firing at gets a cover save, even if the model is not 25% obscured.

Vehicles do not benefit from this. They have to be 25% obscured. So for example while you can put a few jetbikes in front of a Wraithknight to grant it a cover save, even if they don't cover 25%, the same jetbikes might not benefit an Imperial Knight, since an Imperial Knight is a walker.

coredump wrote:
Depends on how you read/play the rules. Some folks say intervening models need to obscure 25% to grant a cover save, some say they only need 1% to grant a cover save. (for non-vehicle targets.)

Shouldn't there be a correct way? Anyone know how that would be ruled in an official tournament setting? Also what you said doesn't address the enemy getting a cover save from the wraithknight,

The problem line is this one:
If a target is partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit (models not from the firer’s unit, or from the target unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain.
-Intervening Models

If 25% is 'obscured' then what is 'partially obscured?'

so what you're saying is the jetbikes don't even need to cover 25% of the wraithknight?

I don't think there's really been a straight answer yet and I think I'm actually more confused then I was before. So if someone could structure a yes/no answer according to the following that would really be appreciated:

1) Does the wraithknight get a cover save from enemy infantry?
2) Does the wraithknight get a cover save from enemy vehicles?
3) Do enemy infantry get a cover save from the wraithknight?
4) Do enemy vehicles get a cover save from the wraightknight?

Oh, it gets worse when you read the next sentence:
...if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

The answers to your question all depend on factors that can only be determined at the tabletop. We have to draw line of sight vectors to confirm if they pass 'between' models to start with, but there are still questions we simply do not know the answer too. For example: "What trajectory does the shot actually take?" is a large one because we have permission to draw Line of sight from any point to any point. This makes it to draw a Line that goes through or 'over' the Intervening Models simply by changing the start or end points. Not to mention a few other-ones that this topic is bringing back to memory now....

ugh,

Well if we go with this vector/trajectory idea I think it is safe to assume that the trajectory lines that are chosen are optimal for the firer. So say the enemy is firing a 36" gun from 20" away. This gives the model more than enough range to draw a line that is <36" in length from their gun to the wraithknight's head. Does the knight then get a save since there is nothing in the way of this trajectory?

P.S. I have a pdf version of the rule book and a search only found the word 'trajectory' once and it was in the fluff portion of the book.

Personally:
I side with no, if the shot goes "over" the intervening Models then it has not gone "through the gaps."

I used the word trajectory not because it was a game term but because it describes what we are trying to calculate. However, I do want to thank you for the headache these memories are bringing back. I'm just going to leave it at my personal opinion on the matter, because I don't think I ever figured out how to go about determining exactly which route the shot is taking. Granted that there is only one line it can be following, and lacking any detailed instructions on how that line is calculated it is entirely reasonable to assume it will be the 'most optimal' for the Firing Model.

Here's the thing, when I posted this question I thought first part, the wraithknight getting a cover save, would be prety straight forward. If the wraithknight is standing behind an AGL does he get a cover save? The answer should be the same as whether or not he gets cover for intervening units.

The problem with that is simple:
Being 25% Obstructed is not a requirement that must be met when utilizing a Cover Save, it is just one of many ways to be granted a Cover Save.
Any Rule which provides a Cover Save does so regardless of how much is Obscured, unless it states otherwise.

Rx8Speed wrote:
Here's the thing, when I posted this question I thought first part, the wraithknight getting a cover save, would be prety straight forward. If the wraithknight is standing behind an AGL does he get a cover save? The answer should be the same as whether or not he gets cover for intervening units.

If he's close enough? Yes. I like to review area terrain with my opponent every game anyway since TLoS is very iffy on the local terrain options.

What gives 4+/5+ cover? Toe touching or all in? Same for MC? Vehicles? How high is a 1" hill? Can infantry be seen to/from behind it? What about dreads/rhinos/LR/skimmers?

My houserule is toe touching for infantry, and I suggest 25% for MC/Vehicles, that rhinos and regular under are hidden behind a hill and LR/MC can be seen over level but not 2, but I'll play whatever the opponent wants. We just need to establish (and stick to) that before we place it or roll.

You are looking for a 'clear answer' but the rules are not clear.

There is a debate as to whether intervening models require 25% obscurement to grant a cover save, or if a 1% obscurement is enough.

Further, there is a smaller debate about where you check this, since you can draw LoS from anywhere on the firing model.

That's why that rule about intervening models has no restriction on hight or width. Keep it simple. If there are models in between you get a cover save. Never mind all the what ifs. Period.

Lungpickle wrote:
That's why that rule about intervening models has no restriction on hight or width. Keep it simple. If there are models in between you get a cover save. Never mind all the what ifs. Period.

is that RAW? I don't think it is

Rx8Speed wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
That's why that rule about intervening models has no restriction on hight or width. Keep it simple. If there are models in between you get a cover save. Never mind all the what ifs. Period.

is that RAW? I don't think it is

Fantasy has a shooting/cover/25 (50?) concealment bonus (-1 BS penalty), but I haven't seen any, aside from vehicle rules, for 40k.

If you shoot over the rippers at a Mawloc, he gets a 5+ cover barring something saying he doesn't, because there is an intervening unit. Shooting OVER a unit has two exceptions:
" that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit, either because the firer has an elevated position or is firing a Barrage weapon, "

That is an enumerated list of exceptions - there's no "such as because" waffling in there - so it is just those 2 exception RAW. So as well as being the HIPWI and likely RAI, as Rx8Speed points out, I read it as the RAW. Fluff wise, I may be shooting a cannon at the big gribbly, but I'm a tad distracted by the flesh eating carnivorous worms or whatever crawling at me, so maybe I fail to account for wind or it takes an extra fraction of a second to fire in which the big nasty has moved into a slight depression, a non-participating gargoyle flies by and catches the blast or whatever.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

Rx8Speed wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
That's why that rule about intervening models has no restriction on hight or width. Keep it simple. If there are models in between you get a cover save. Never mind all the what ifs. Period.

is that RAW? I don't think it is

Fantasy has a shooting/cover/25 (50?) concealment bonus (-1 BS penalty), but I haven't seen any, aside from vehicle rules, for 40k.

If you shoot over the rippers at a Mawloc, he gets a 5+ cover barring something saying he doesn't, because there is an intervening unit. Shooting OVER a unit has two exceptions:
" that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit, either because the firer has an elevated position or is firing a Barrage weapon, "

That is an enumerated list of exceptions - there's no "such as because" waffling in there - so it is just those 2 exception RAW. So as well as being the HIPWI and likely RAI, as Rx8Speed points out, I read it as the RAW. Fluff wise, I may be shooting a cannon at the big gribbly, but I'm a tad distracted by the flesh eating carnivorous worms or whatever crawling at me, so maybe I fail to account for wind or it takes an extra fraction of a second to fire in which the big nasty has moved into a slight depression, a non-participating gargoyle flies by and catches the blast or whatever.

So what you're saying is that the wraithknight gets a cover save and the unit he is firing at gets a cover save?
This make sense if you do not draw fire from the wraithknight's guns like you would with vehicles

Rx8Speed wrote:
So what you're saying is that the wraithknight gets a cover save and the unit he is firing at gets a cover save?
This make sense if you do not draw fire from the wraithknight's guns like you would with vehicles

Yep. ASCII art time
P---a---T

Non-vehicles:
If P shoots at T, and "a" is in the way, T gets cover. Ditto if T shoots P, P gets cover.

If T is a vehicle, P is not:
P shoots T, if T is 25% obscured, he gets cover. P gets a cover from T either way, even if T is a titan and P is a Mawloc behind a row of ripper swarms, because nothing says he doesn't.

So if P is about the size of "a", T gets cover and if P is tall but "a" is not, T doesn't get cover (no 25%).

So basically I should assault move my jebikes in front of my wraithknight if I want to get a cover save but not give one to my enemy. Of couurse that is assuming no one contradicts you

Rx8Speed wrote:
So basically I should assault move my jebikes in front of my wraithknight if I want to get a cover save but not give one to my enemy. Of couurse that is assuming no one contradicts you

That would work. I always give my 1/3 bikes cannons though, so you might want to just shuffle the catapult guys in front instead.

Don't forget the WK is a MC, so it has move through cover and auto-passes dangerous terrain tests, so there's no reason to not hide him in a woods or ruin, otherwise that 3+ doesn't go far.

There is a small problem I have with the concept of elevation in this game: The Authors don't believe the third dimension even exists, so how can the Rules determine if something is 'Elevated?'

Joke aside, the Rules have been very luck-lustre when it comes to anything related to the "height" and that does cause me some concerns. In this situation I could make a few good arguments concerning the word Elevation, the more I think on it the more I conclude that is the correct Rule as Written answer as well, but they lead to some very broken situations. The two below hypothetical situations came easily to mind, clearly showing where the Shot would have to pass between Models but the technicality would deny any Cover Save from being granted by having actually done so. As far as the Written Rule is concerned, these two situations lead to shots having passed 'over' the Models in question:

Hypothetical Situation 1:
Unit A is firing at Unit B from the second floor of a Ruin and Unit C is between the two
Unit C's Models are large enough, and B's small enough, that line of sight can only be drawn through a gap between the intervening Unit
Unit B has no Special Rules related to Cover Saves and is standing on Open Terrain
We then claim the Firing Unit is Elevated, the Shots therefore go 'over' the Models in question, and no Cover Save is granted.

Hypothetical Situation 2:
Unit A has some tiny Models, think Ratlings or something, currently standing on Difficult Terrain
- nothing to fancy just some gravel to represent ankle high rocks that one can't just sprint through, wouldn't even give the Ratlings a Cover save if behind it.
Unit B is once more standing on Open Terrain, right in base contact with the table, and has no Special Rules concerning Cover
Unit A fires at Unit B, all Line of Sight is traced through the gap between Models in Unit C
We then claim the Firing Unit is Elevated, the Shots therefore go 'over' the Models in question, and no Cover Save is granted.

Rx8Speed wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
That's why that rule about intervening models has no restriction on hight or width. Keep it simple. If there are models in between you get a cover save. Never mind all the what ifs. Period.

is that RAW? I don't think it is

Again, it depends on who you ask, and how they read it.

I believe the RAW is fairly clear that the intervening models need to obscure 25% to grant a cover save... others think RAW is clear otherwise...

IMO:
Terrain such as gravel doesn't give a cover save or elevation unless the "dataslate" says it does. I'd assume hills get elevation and woods get cover, but not the reverse. I'd assume gravel looking stuff was ruins in my meta, but if yours is different and you guys say no cover save, but difficult/dangerous terrain, that should be pretty standard for you too.

Hypothetical Situation 1 is handled via line of sight, IMO. No shooting through the floor they stand on. If a laser pointer from the model's "eye" can see the base of the target, AOK IMO. The mawloc in between is in a quantum state moving around an abstract space, so you can fire through it if any gap exists.

Hypothetical Situation 2, if just "scale model" sized gravel, is not elevating it. I would assume only a hill/multi-level ruin or building has elevation.

I always seek agreement to what terrain does, it's cover save and how it impacts "TLoS", BEFORE setting up the board. Ditto for mysterious terrain if anyone uses that. Some people think the top of a hill is area terrain and they can get a 3+ cover from GtG on top of one. I assume it's clear and just for LoS purposes. It's best to decide which before lascannons are perched atop it

And with that we encounter a problem, as I have never seen a Datasheet stating "Models standing in/on the terrain piece in question counts as being elevated."

It would still be a very good counter argument to the 'measurement is done from base to closest point, so determining elevation is from table to base' argument though. Given that we do not have a specific Rule telling us how to determine if the Model is elevated, making it a requirement for the Datasheet itself is creative. That would allow the 'shooting over Models' Rule to have a purpose and grant us a Rule as Written supported method that we could use to determine if the model is 'elevated enough' to prevent a Cover Save being generated. It doesn't grant elevation to Models in Ruins or on Buildings by default, unless I really overlooked something in the Rules, but there are ways around that thanks to the 'Scratch Built Terrain' Rules we can so easily exploit.

As someone whom likes archotechs, I am really glad we have such a open-ended Rule granting permission for us to make legally binding Datasheet's for Terrain.

To answer the original question, my interpretation of the rules is:

If the Wraithknight has a clear line of sight from the gun barrel to the target unit (nothing obscuring) then they do not get a save (unless they have a special rule or the terrain they are in has a special rule). If the los from the gun barrel to the target unit travels through another unit then they get a save (applying the 25% covered rule).

When firing AT the wraithknight though the knight does get a save depending on your interpretation of the rule (25% vs 1% obstruction). We use the 25% rule for vehicles as well as units as this is how we originally interpreted it so providing your bikes cover 25% of the wraithknight then it gets a cover save.

We tend to take the realistic approach, for example in this circumstance there is nothing blocking the wraithknight from shooting at the enemy, even with BS0 short of the gun falling off mid shot the chances of hitting the bikes is almost impossible, however coming back the other way if the bikes are just in front of the knight then the chances of a stray shot not hitting the wraithknight because of the covering unit is possible although unlikely (unless your an ork in which cause you unload with lots of dakka and hope you hit something).

Thats how we play, while we could go round and round arguing the semantics of what is written it was easier just to come to a consensus of what we thought was fair or meant by the rules.

If someone wanted to argue this in a tournie/local store i would probably run with whatever interpretation they thought was correct unless it smelt fishie in which case i would ask a judge/store manager for clarification.

Fezza

I'm fine either way so long as its agreed upon before it comes up, otherwise, by RAW I think it's a 5+ (vehicles aside). If someone wants to 4+ for it that's fine too the first time it comes up.

If a 5+ is enough to make or break the game, I'm just glad it was a close one

"elevated" is not a condition nor special rule. It is simple English.

If you are tall enough, or on a hill or ruin or whatever, you may be able to see *over* the intervening unit and avoid the cover save. If you are high enough that you see less than (1% or 25%) of the model as obscured.... then no cover save.

Keeping in mind, that the space between the models also counts towards obscurement.

The save would be 5+.