Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Unholyllama won the debate. I retract my statement. No need for future responses.

Here's the original post if you want to read it anyway.

If somthing is classified as battlefield debris it means:

A. you get a cover save for being obscured by it.

B. you can place these pieces thematically on your tabletops and use their rules whenever you want.



It does not give you permission to pay for just that item without taking the preclusury fortification piece for your army.


That line does in fact seem to indicate you could purchase them separately, however there are no entries in the dataslates for those pieces in and of themselves. Techniqually i suppose if you wanted to you could write up dataslates for them yourself in 7th edition, however you would have to run it past any TO if you are attending one of their events.

Eihnlazer wrote:
That line does in fact seem to indicate you could purchase them separately, however there are no entries in the dataslates for those pieces in and of themselves. Techniqually i suppose if you wanted to you could write up dataslates for them yourself in 7th edition, however you would have to run it past any TO if you are attending one of their events.

"...purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right." There's no two ways of interpreting that. They can be purchased as an upgrade. They can also be purchased as a Fortification on their own.
All of the relevant rules for the Upgrades that can also be taken as Fortifications on their own are on these two pages, separate from the other regular Fortification.

Your only argument is that they aren't in the right format. Format changes from book to book, so that argument doesn't hold water.

"The Following list summarizes the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."

It's a summary. It's not giving you permission to purchase the items in the list (which doesn't list their prices). It is a general statement saying that the list is a summary of things from the book. It is NOT giving you permission to ignore the rest of the book and buy those things by themselves. The second half of the sentence is just letting the reader know how these items are acquired... it is not giving instructions or permission to do so from the summary.

ForeverARookie wrote:
"...purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right." There's no two ways of interpreting that.

There are at least two ways of interpreting that:
a) The list could be Fortifications that are each able to be purchased EITHER with another fortification OR on their own.
b) The list could be several Fortifications that are only able to be purchased with other fortifications, and several other fortifications that can be purchased on their own.

I don't own the book in question, so I can't look at the context or anything, but there are definitely other ways to read that sentence (only a Sith deals in absolutes!)

Page 18 and 19 go together. Page 18 has the costs, as well as the descriptions of the upgrades that cannot be taken on their own. Page 19 has the descriptions for the Battlefield Debris that can be purchased "as fortifications in their own right."

"Can be purchased ... as fortifications in their own right."

How is this not explicitely giving permission to purchase these as their own fortifications? Prices are on one page, their rules are on the other. The Grey Knight Stormraven takes up two pages, does that mean it can't be purchased?

If they couldn't be purchased separately, the writers could just as easily said "The Following are the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification." Page 18 already lays out the rules for upgrads and their locations, so there is no reason to have that last part in bold unless it is saying they CAN be purchased separately.

ForeverARookie wrote:
Page 18 and 19 go together. Page 18 has the costs, as well as the descriptions of the upgrades that cannot be taken on their own. Page 19 has the descriptions for the Battlefield Debris that can be purchased "as fortifications in their own right."

"Can be purchased ... as fortifications in their own right."

How is this not explicitely giving permission to purchase these as their own fortifications? Prices are on one page, their rules are on the other. The Grey Knight Stormraven takes up two pages, does that mean it can't be purchased?

If they couldn't be purchased separately, the writers could just as easily said "The Following are the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification." Page 18 already lays out the rules for upgrads and their locations, so there is no reason to have that last part in bold unless it is saying they CAN be purchased separately.

Is there anything in that list that is itself a fortification? If so then they couldn't just say "The Following are the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification." because some of them can in fact be purchased as a fortification in their own right. It's stating the obvious, not giving you new rules.

Zimko wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:
Page 18 and 19 go together. Page 18 has the costs, as well as the descriptions of the upgrades that cannot be taken on their own. Page 19 has the descriptions for the Battlefield Debris that can be purchased "as fortifications in their own right."

"Can be purchased ... as fortifications in their own right."

How is this not explicitely giving permission to purchase these as their own fortifications? Prices are on one page, their rules are on the other. The Grey Knight Stormraven takes up two pages, does that mean it can't be purchased?

If they couldn't be purchased separately, the writers could just as easily said "The Following are the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification." Page 18 already lays out the rules for upgrads and their locations, so there is no reason to have that last part in bold unless it is saying they CAN be purchased separately.

Is there anything in that list that is itself a fortification? If so then they couldn't just say "The Following are the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification." because some of them can in fact be purchased as a fortification in their own right. It's stating the obvious, not giving you new rules.

They don't list the Aegis Line as an upgrade to a Bastion if that's what you're getting at. They're all upgrades, most of which have their prices listed on the opposite page. The only two that don't are the Imperial Statue and Rubble which are the components of the Honoured Imperium Fortification on page 23. So if a subset of them could be taken on their own, it would be everything except those two.

Ah. And where's the rule for that? If you're saying that sentence allows me to take a comms relay alone then I can also take rubble alone simply because it is in the summary.

But alas I cant because it is just a summary and the sentence you are treating as a rule is nothing more than a general statement.

It is an old book written for the previous edition, before GW decided on the format they wanted to run with. Where the quotation says "summary" the following descriptions include all of the rules regarding those fortifications, as well as their prices, the Rubble and Statue excluded.

If you take, "The Following list summarizes the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right." as a general statement, and not as a rule, then it is an incorrect general statement.

The Rubble is not a fortification in its own right. The Statue is not a fortification in its own right. Both are components of a Fortification. And the others aren't even components of a Fortification, they're upgrades, meaning they aren't Fortifications in their own right either, unless they can be purchased separately.

If it's not just a general statement (granted, an incorrect one) then how much does Rubble cost?

Zimko wrote:
If it's not just a general statement (granted, an incorrect one) then how much does Rubble cost?

Rubble and the Statue would be the exceptions, as they are the only two without separate costs listed on these two pages.

The Grey Knight FAQ listed stats for two vehicles that weren't in the Grey Knight Codex, that didn't invalidate what it said about the ones that were. It's the same thing here.

ForeverARookie wrote:

Zimko wrote:
If it's not just a general statement (granted, an incorrect one) then how much does Rubble cost?

Rubble and the Statue would be the exceptions, as they are the only two without separate costs listed on these two pages.

The Grey Knight FAQ listed stats for two vehicles that weren't in the Grey Knight Codex, that didn't invalidate what it said about the ones that were. It's the same thing here.

The FAQ stated exactly what it was conveying. It gave a table listing hull points for various vehicles, including some you couldn't purchase. It wasn't giving you permission to purchase those items.

Similarly, the statement you're quoting does not give you permission to purchase those items. It's just stating what the list's function is (a summary).

Zimko wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:

Zimko wrote:
If it's not just a general statement (granted, an incorrect one) then how much does Rubble cost?

Rubble and the Statue would be the exceptions, as they are the only two without separate costs listed on these two pages.

The Grey Knight FAQ listed stats for two vehicles that weren't in the Grey Knight Codex, that didn't invalidate what it said about the ones that were. It's the same thing here.

The FAQ stated exactly what it was conveying. It gave a table listing hull points for various vehicles, including some you couldn't purchase. It wasn't giving you permission to purchase those items.

Similarly, the statement you're quoting does not give you permission to purchase those items. It's just stating what the list's function is (a summary).

Then why is it in BOLD?
Why does it say they can be purchased separately when they can't?

I never claimed that the the FAQ gave permission to purchase those vehicles, just as I never claimed that Stronghold Assault provided rules for purchasing Rubble or the Statue separately. What I did say, was that those oddities didn't invalidate what the rest said.

So the Hull Points for the vehicles the Grey Knights had access to were accurate.
And the direct statement in Stronghold Assault that these units could be purchased separately as Fortifications of their own is also accurate, in so far as it applies to every unit that has the price and rules on those two pages.

The two extra vehicles are discounted from the Grey Knight FAQ, and the Rubble and Stature are discounted from Stronghold Assault's rule at the top of page 19.

Yes, but how and when would you place them? When you've chosen sides? Or before you choose sides.

Cause even if you can, when you place them would probably be a big deal.

I mean you place it then, welp it's not on your side and you just gave your opponent a Comm Relay.

Hollismason wrote:
Yes, but how and when would you place them? When you've chosen sides? Or before you choose sides.

Cause even if you can, when you place them would probably be a big deal.

I mean you place it then, welp it's not on your side and you just gave your opponent a Comm Relay.

They would be placed exactly like other Fortifications. Within your deployment zone. So, yes, like all fortifications, they would be placed after you choose sides.

ForeverARookie wrote:
The book includes Fortifications (Aegis Defense Line, Imperial Bastion, Skyshield Landing Pad, etc). It also includes a separate page of "Fortification Upgrades" on page 18. However, Page 19 also classifies some of these as Battlefield Debris, and the first sentence on the page states in bold print, "The Following list summarizes the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."

The bolded text is bolded because it describes why page 19 exists. It's a summary of rules for the debris listed. The bolded sentence has 2 clauses.

Clause 1 (main clause): "The Following list summarizes the rules for battlefield debris..."
Clause 2 (adjective clause): "that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."

Clause 2 is a descriptor for clause 1. The main purpose of the sentence is to describe what is on the page. It is not an instruction for how to purchase items on the page, nor is it giving you permission to do so, nor are there instructions anywhere on this page for purchasing these items.

Zimko wrote:
The bolded text is bolded because it describes why page 19 exists. It's a summary of rules for the debris listed. The bolded sentence has 2 clauses.

Clause 1 (main clause): "The Following list summarizes the rules for battlefield debris..."
Clause 2 (adjective clause): "that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."

Clause 2 is a descriptor for clause 1. The main purpose of the sentence is to describe what is on the page. It is not an instruction for how to purchase items on the page, nor is it giving you permission to do so, nor are there instructions anywhere on this page for purchasing these items.

"The Following list summarizes the rules for battlefield debris..."
in this context means "These are the rules for these specific pieces of battlefield debris."

"that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
Either they can be purchased as fortifications in their own right or they can't. You're arguing that GW took the time to write an unnecessary clause, containing incorrect information.

As I said before, it is an old book, written before GW standardised their formatting. I'm presenting the wording for what it is, and you are rules-lawyering it to claim that it doesn't say anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warhammer 40k: The Rules, page 119.
"Fortifications are battlefield defences, including everything from barricades to towering fortresses. They are typically buildings and/or battlefield debris that your army has either constructed or captured just before the start of the battle. You'll find a wide range of fortifications presented in Warhammer 40,000: Stornghold Assault, and further fortification datasheets feature in other Games Workshop publications."

"and/or battlefield debris". Fortifications can be buildings, they can be debris, or they can be both.

Battlefield Debris can be a Fortification of its own. And pg 18-19 of Stronghold Assault provide the means.

ForeverARookie wrote:

Zimko wrote:
The bolded text is bolded because it describes why page 19 exists. It's a summary of rules for the debris listed. The bolded sentence has 2 clauses.

Clause 1 (main clause): "The Following list summarizes the rules for battlefield debris..."
Clause 2 (adjective clause): "that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."

Clause 2 is a descriptor for clause 1. The main purpose of the sentence is to describe what is on the page. It is not an instruction for how to purchase items on the page, nor is it giving you permission to do so, nor are there instructions anywhere on this page for purchasing these items.

"The Following list summarizes the rules for battlefield debris..."
in this context means "These are the rules for these specific pieces of battlefield debris."

"that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
Either they can be purchased as fortifications in their own right or they can't. You're arguing that GW took the time to write an unnecessary clause, containing incorrect information.

As I said before, it is an old book, written before GW standardised their formatting. I'm presenting the wording for what it is, and you are rules-lawyering it to claim that it doesn't say anything.

GW writes unnecessary crap all the time, so yeah thats what Im saying they did here. If they meant for items on that list to be purchasible then they wouldnt have put rubble and the statue on the list. Or are you suggested they put two entire entries there without points costs by mistake? And dont quote the grey knight faq because that was a clear copy/paste mistake.

Claiming Im rules lawyering while hinging your argument on a single sentence is funny.

2 sentences actually. He quoted a summary from the BRB supporting his argument, which I agree with.

Other verbiage aside, the price of an upgrade is not the same as the price for the thing itself, nor is it permission to take something buy itself. A unit that can take a landraider can generally buy a multi-melta for that landraider for 10points, but that doesn't mean you can get MM for 10 points without the landraider.

Interpreting it otherwise is an extremely loose reading that implies I could have bought a quad cannons or icarus lascannon without the Aegis wall in the last edition when it was all in the BRB. I hope that if you read it that loosely here that you aren't the sort that tries to have incredible tight readings elsewhere when it benefits someone else's army.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Other verbiage aside, the price of an upgrade is not the same as the price for the thing itself, nor is it permission to take something buy itself. A unit that can take a landraider can generally buy a multi-melta for that landraider for 10points, but that doesn't mean you can get MM for 10 points without the landraider.

Interpreting it otherwise is an extremely loose reading that implies I could have bought a quad cannons or icarus lascannon without the Aegis wall in the last edition when it was all in the BRB. I hope that if you read it that loosely here that you aren't the sort that tries to have incredible tight readings elsewhere when it benefits someone else's army.

A direct statement saying that something can be a Fortification on its own is justification.

Nothing on the Land Raider's or any Multi-melta's profile says it can be taken as a fortification, so that has no bearing on the argument, and is just hyperbole.

The 6th Edition BRB only had the Comms Relay as an upgrade and didn't state that it could be taken separately. Stronghold Assault came out in December of 2013 and does say that the Battlefield debris listed on that page can be taken as Fortifications of their own, and the 7th Edition BRB supports it.

Looking over the book in front of me....

My interpretation is that the items listed under the Battlefield Debris section are ALL special rules associated with upgrades or pieces of fortifications.

Ammo Dump, Barricades/Walls, Gun Emplacements, Tanglewire, Tank Traps, and Comms Relays are upgrades (as defined on the previous page under the Obstacles and Battlements & Battlefield upgrade subsections).

The Defense Line, Imperial Statuary, and Wreckage/Rubble are all part of 2 different fortification entries - the Aegis Defense Line and the Honoured Imperium (which consists of an Imperial Statuary and 2 pieces of of Rubble).

So the summary of the Battlefield Debris is accurate in that some elements listed in this section ARE upgrades while others are directly part of a fortification.

It's not saying you can take upgrades as fortification in and of themselves, it's saying some of the things listed in the section are upgrades and some are actual pieces of fortification datasheets found later in the book.

 Unholyllama wrote:
Looking over the book in front of me....

My interpretation is that the items listed under the Battlefield Debris section are ALL special rules associated with upgrades or pieces of fortifications.

Ammo Dump, Barricades/Walls, Gun Emplacements, Tanglewire, Tank Traps, and Comms Relays are upgrades (as defined on the previous page under the Obstacles and Battlements & Battlefield upgrade subsections).

The Defense Line, Imperial Statuary, and Wreckage/Rubble are all part of 2 different fortification entries - the Aegis Defense Line and the Honoured Imperium (which consists of an Imperial Statuary and 2 pieces of of Rubble).

So the summary of the Battlefield Debris is accurate in that some elements listed in this section ARE upgrades while others are directly part of a fortification.

It's not saying you can take upgrades as fortification in and of themselves, it's saying some of the things listed in the section are upgrades and some are actual pieces of fortification datasheets found later in the book.

I can grumble about not having a counter to that, but that is a sensible retort, which is sometimes hard to find. That's concise, straight forward, and explains the wording without having to ignore part of it. To you, I concede.

Thank you for actually having and checking the book rather than basing your opposition on just your own sense of logic.

ForeverARookie wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
That line does in fact seem to indicate you could purchase them separately, however there are no entries in the dataslates for those pieces in and of themselves. Techniqually i suppose if you wanted to you could write up dataslates for them yourself in 7th edition, however you would have to run it past any TO if you are attending one of their events.

"...purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right." There's no two ways of interpreting that. They can be purchased as an upgrade. They can also be purchased as a Fortification on their own.
All of the relevant rules for the Upgrades that can also be taken as Fortifications on their own are on these two pages, separate from the other regular Fortification.

Your only argument is that they aren't in the right format. Format changes from book to book, so that argument doesn't hold water.

I don't see this wording anywhere in the strong hold book under the rules for purchasing upgrades. The wording that the comms relay is under is under battlement & battlefeild

this is the exact wording from the book
"Battlement & Battlefield upgrades are single pieces of battlefield debris. A list of the relevant descriptions and rules for battlefield debris can be found opposite. Each fortification can purchase a single Battlement & Battlefield upgrade from the list below. These are placed either on the fortification’s battlements (if it is a building with battlements) or anywhere on the tabletop that is wholly within 6" of their fortification."

The text that people are refering to, "or as fortifications in their own right.", Is under the description of what battlefield debris is not in the rules of how to purchase the upgrade.

ChapertMasterRagnaValick wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
That line does in fact seem to indicate you could purchase them separately, however there are no entries in the dataslates for those pieces in and of themselves. Techniqually i suppose if you wanted to you could write up dataslates for them yourself in 7th edition, however you would have to run it past any TO if you are attending one of their events.

"...purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right." There's no two ways of interpreting that. They can be purchased as an upgrade. They can also be purchased as a Fortification on their own.
All of the relevant rules for the Upgrades that can also be taken as Fortifications on their own are on these two pages, separate from the other regular Fortification.

Your only argument is that they aren't in the right format. Format changes from book to book, so that argument doesn't hold water.

I don't see this wording anywhere in the strong hold book. The wording that the comms relay is under is under battlement & battlefeild

this is the exact wording from the book
"Battlement & Battlefield upgrades are single pieces of battlefield debris. A list of the relevant descriptions and rules for battlefield debris can be found opposite. Each fortification can purchase a single Battlement & Battlefield upgrade from the list below. These are placed either on the fortification’s battlements (if it is a building with battlements) or anywhere on the tabletop that is wholly within 6" of their fortification."

It's on the very next page.

OP, let me ask you this. How many points does a Comms Relay cost as a Fortification? You cannot use the list on page 18 (Battlements & Battlefield) as those can only be taken as upgrades.


The reason for the wording, is that certain Fortifications refer to the rules for Battelfield Debris, such as the Aegis Defense Lines or Promethium Relay Pipes.

Please refer to my response to Unholyllama.

 Unholyllama wrote:
Looking over the book in front of me....

My interpretation is that the items listed under the Battlefield Debris section are ALL special rules associated with upgrades or pieces of fortifications.

Ammo Dump, Barricades/Walls, Gun Emplacements, Tanglewire, Tank Traps, and Comms Relays are upgrades (as defined on the previous page under the Obstacles and Battlements & Battlefield upgrade subsections).

The Defense Line, Imperial Statuary, and Wreckage/Rubble are all part of 2 different fortification entries - the Aegis Defense Line and the Honoured Imperium (which consists of an Imperial Statuary and 2 pieces of of Rubble).

So the summary of the Battlefield Debris is accurate in that some elements listed in this section ARE upgrades while others are directly part of a fortification.

It's not saying you can take upgrades as fortification in and of themselves, it's saying some of the things listed in the section are upgrades and some are actual pieces of fortification datasheets found later in the book.

Very nice counter-point, and yea, can't argue with that.

Ummm;
I thought Force Organization Slots are filled by 'Army List Entries,' also known as Datasheets, and not individual Models or Terrain pieces....

Even of the Communication Relay was flagged as a 'a purchasable fortification in it's own right' this is not enough to fill a specific Battlefield Role. All Models can be purchased, they have a individual point costs, but it is more then figuring out how much something costs before it can be added to the Army as a whole. Interestingly, the only reason we have permission to select any of the Datasheets from Stronghold to fill the Fortification slot is because there is a Rule which literally gives us permission to use these Datasheets. At the start of the datasheet list itself is a section explaining what each datasheet means, with specific permission that an entire datasheet is purchased to fill a Battlefield Role.

Someone arguing they can take a Communication Relay alone is the same as me arguing I can select just a single Space Marine Model to fill a 'Troop Slot' because I can calculate the cost of a single Model and it is a 'Troop.'

JinxDragon wrote:
Ummm;
I thought Slots are filled by 'Army List Entries,' also known as Datasheets, and not individual Models or Terrain pieces....

Even of the Com-link was flagged as a 'fortification in it's own right' this does not mean it can simply purchase one to fill a Fortification Slot. It isn't just a matter of finding out how much it costs, it is a matter of finding specific permission to include it as a legal selection to fill a Battlefield Role. The only reason we have permission to select any of the Datasheets from Stronghold to fill the Fortification slot is because there is a Rule which literally gives us permission to use these Datasheets to fill the Fortification Slot on a Force Organization Chart.

Someone arguing they can take a Communication Relay alone is the same as me arguing I can select just a single Space Marine Model to fill a 'Troop Slot' because I can calculate the cost of a single Model and it is a 'Troop.'

Go on and keep beating that dead horse. No one who posted on this thread still hold the position you just argued against. I even edited the title and Original post to reflect that so new readers would know the debate was settled. You must have seen it. The subject line and time-stamp on your post tells me that you posted after I made the update.