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Made in us
Snotty Snotling




Augusta, Michigan, USA



Join veteran caster and mold maker Johnny Lauck (a.k.a. JohnnyBorg) as he explores all the fubar with crowdfunding projects in a 10 article series at http://johnnyborgcastings.blogspot.com/

While your enjoying or hating his biased articles, you may also want to read his monthly progress report on the upcoming Dungeon Décor Series II. Scheduled for release in the spring of 2015 and hopefully coming to a table top game near you.


   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







Very interesting take!
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Neato.

Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

Well, that was snobbish and not very enlightening. Saying "my KS succeeded because I'd done it before- other people are dumb," does not seem to really acknowledge that KS is largely a platform for people to get visibility or scales of projects they weren't able to otherwise. Of course there's a good chance they'll be inexperienced at something new, regardless of if they had experience in business in general or even a very similar field to what they kickstarted. For example, I've seen lots of boutique companies get larger games, and worked in a new material that they didn't have the budget to work with before.

Inexperience with something specific that one couldn't reasonably get experience with prior to a project is not, on its own, damning. Inexperience, combined with a lack of flexibility and professionalism, is damning, which is something that I have seen on KS projects, but a lack of flexibility and professionalism will wreck most ventures, experience or no.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/22 17:51:17



My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

Still... don't back a minis KS that doesn't have actual pictures of the models you're buying.
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

Henshini wrote:
Still... don't back a minis KS that doesn't have actual pictures of the models you're buying.


As much as I prefer to see some sculpts - you're not "buying models" when you back a KS, you are donating money to a company so they can achieve goals they otherwise wouldn't be able to and receiving something, typically the final product at some level of discount, as a reward for your generosity. Whether you back a KS in which the company needs money to pay development costs for the product is up to you, but pretending any KS that does so is somehow wrong because they need more assistance than just running a glorified preorder campaign is bollocks.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
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Portland

I believe in initial investment, so probably wouldn't ever back a KS without some if its minis done, but that's true of any KS- a strong proof of concept and professionalism is what I need to have confidence to back. I don't need everything done, because, again, that's not the point of KS in my opinion.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Eh, I like to not lose my money.

For myself, lack of sculpts ("Renders are not miniatures") is a weak disincentive to back a project ("yellow flag").

If a company has retail experience, then I'm more likely to back it without sculpts. RAFM's an example. They only had concept art for their Cthulhu miniatures, but delivered.

But Cthulhu Wars... Myth... Alien Assimilation... Robotech RPG... it's not too difficult to find examples of new-creator KS which only showed concept art and have massive delays -- or no delivery at all.

Lack of actual sculpts isn't a deal-breaker, but I'm less likely to back the project, and if I do back it, I don't expect it to be delivered on time.

Center Stage Miniatures... Torn Armor...

I'll also just leave this here... http://www.megaminis.com/MEGA/CATALOGS/MegaMinis-DUNGEONDECORcatalog.pdf

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/22 20:13:49


Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

While I think KS should be used for finishing a project, I do think when it comes to minis you have to be able to see the actual models first. Concept art can be amazing, but that doesn't matter if the sculptor they get isn't any good. And 3D renders are great and all, but what if they want to use shapeways to print them?

KS is great for funding a project, but the creator needs to put in a good enough amount of work ahead of time to prove to me that they can finish the job with my money.

 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Yep! Check out the detail on those Shadows of Brimstone mini's! Just as good as the renders (and concept art)! I'm sure all the assembly was worth it!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/22 20:22:09


Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

 Yodhrin wrote:
Henshini wrote:
Still... don't back a minis KS that doesn't have actual pictures of the models you're buying.


As much as I prefer to see some sculpts - you're not "buying models" when you back a KS, you are donating money to a company so they can achieve goals they otherwise wouldn't be able to and receiving something, typically the final product at some level of discount, as a reward for your generosity. Whether you back a KS in which the company needs money to pay development costs for the product is up to you, but pretending any KS that does so is somehow wrong because they need more assistance than just running a glorified preorder campaign is bollocks.


Still, the KS market is pretty darn queered when it comes to startup TT miniatures companies that legitimately need the funds. You can't pull off an Area Rex or Blackwaer Gulch these days. Established businesses using KS as a marketing platform with the added bonus of no-strings financing have established consumer expectations that most small businesses are incapable of meeting without taking on a massive risk, which sort of defeats the purpose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ced1106 wrote:
Eh, I like to not lose my money.

For myself, lack of sculpts ("Renders are not miniatures") is a weak disincentive to back a project ("yellow flag").

If a company has retail experience, then I'm more likely to back it without sculpts. RAFM's an example. They only had concept art for their Cthulhu miniatures, but delivered.

But Cthulhu Wars... Myth... Alien Assimilation... Robotech RPG... it's not too difficult to find examples of new-creator KS which only showed concept art and have massive delays -- or no delivery at all.

Lack of actual sculpts isn't a deal-breaker, but I'm less likely to back the project, and if I do back it, I don't expect it to be delivered on time.

Center Stage Miniatures... Torn Armor...

I'll also just leave this here... http://www.megaminis.com/MEGA/CATALOGS/MegaMinis-DUNGEONDECORcatalog.pdf


But think about that. If the company has retail experience, isn't it in a much stronger position to bring a product to market than a startup? Doesn't that mean the company doesn't really need crowdfunding?

While I completely understand the sentiment, it has always struck me as sort of odd and backward to say that it is a better idea to back kickstarters run by established companies.

Sure, it may be safer, but you are giving that company an obligation-free donation so that it can produce a retail product it is otherwise capable of bringing to market. It is safer because the company can otherwise bring the product to market. As you mentioned, you wouldn't need to see more than concepts from RAFM because you know that RAFM is capable of bringing a product to market. So why can't RAFM bring the product to market without your no rights, no obligations, guilt-free monetary gift?

If someone comes to me with their hand out, the first thing I ask myself is, why does this person need my money? The first thing I ask is not, what do I get out of it? That's what has happened to the TTG Kickstarter market. Prospective backers are now in the habit of asking 'what to I get out of it,' rather than evaluating need and/or positive good. Am I looking at something that will not otherwise exist without my help? Am I looking at something that I want to be out there in the world?

Absolutely evaluate the project creator as best you can, but my point is that part of that evaluation should be asking, "do you need my money?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Necros wrote:
While I think KS should be used for finishing a project, I do think when it comes to minis you have to be able to see the actual models first. Concept art can be amazing, but that doesn't matter if the sculptor they get isn't any good. And 3D renders are great and all, but what if they want to use shapeways to print them?

KS is great for funding a project, but the creator needs to put in a good enough amount of work ahead of time to prove to me that they can finish the job with my money.


That is pretty ironic coming from the creator of the Blackwater Gulch Kickstarter. Sure, you had some sculpts, 4 sculpts if I recall correctly. The rest was concept art, and none of it was in production. You yourself have said that one can't get away with a Kickstarter like Blackwater Gulch these days.

If your sculpts had been CAD and not hand-sculpted, would the upfront funds have been sufficient to have had printed masters on hand to show when the project was launched?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/22 20:55:14


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Yep I started out that way, but I think the KS process has changed a lot. I admittedly didn't really know what I was doing when I first started out and back then, and also backers were more lenient. I think I was really lucky and I don't think i'd be successful today if I launched the same exact campaign as before with just a couple greens and some drawings.

I just meant nowadays it seems like you have to do more work before hand if you want to be successful, and I think that's a good thing.

 
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker





Las Vegas

I've only backed one KS (Deadzone) and I received everything I was expecting to receive. Mind you, I had to decide between DZ and TTGITG.

RIght now, I'm wishing that I had the funds to back The Green Alliance KS from Maxmini when it came out.

"If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." - Albert Einstein 
   
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Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

ced1106 wrote:
Eh, I like to not lose my money.
There have been projects that have been delayed for multitude of reasons but I have actually never lost any money in a KS. Everything I have backed has either delivered, in the process of delivery, delayed but will still deliver. I know there have unfortunately been a couple out there that vanished and some people lost money, thankfully I haven't had that issue. I don't just back game KS though, I also back technology, art, comics and other categories as well... as long as the project interests me.

The KS crowd is a lot more knowledgeable now which does make it harder for those running projects. There is more information available so people tend to ask more questions, depending on those answers and how they answer themselves usually determines if there are any flags that pop up. Last Saga as an example that had mostly concept art, probably could have done better if it was launched 1-2 years ago. The concept art unfortunately didn't pull me in and it wasn't until they showed renders, sculpts and metal miniatures that I finally got pulled into. If I had funds at the time, I would have still backed it despite the lack of actual product examples. Since I was backing a few other KS at the time, they pulled me in first and I had to prioritize funding. Ultimately that is the dynamic that is changing the KS crowd. Larger companies unfortunately with product examples have also spoiled backers because they can provide more product for the dollar. As a result smaller projects, unless they are offering a lot of something, tend to suffer more than they would have previously. Mix that with the more knowledgeable crowd, it sometimes provides explosive results in comments sections.
   
Made in us
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weeble1000 wrote:
But think about that. If the company has retail experience, isn't it in a much stronger position to bring a product to market than a startup?


Hell no!

Or, rather, while a company which has retail experience usually has more resources than a startup (or, rather, hobby-businesses on KS which don't get the outsider investing traditional startups do), they often do *not* have the initial funds for certain types of, or large scales of, projects -- such as plastic miniatures. Reaper, frex, specifically said that their Bones line was their most successful product line, but, despite this, they still didn't have the funding to pay for the costly metal molds. Eagle Games had a cash flow problem. A shipment of boardgames from overseas had extensive water damage, but their insurance company was not yet releasing funds. They had unsold inventory, and used KS to generate necessary funds. Thanks to KS, Mantic and CMON can add *many* more sculpts to a game than retail would normally allow.

That's not to say that traditional retail distribution isn't a bad idea. Could you imagine how the Eurogames community would react if CMON were in charge of a Dominion KS? How if FFG KS'ed Star Wars: Imperial Assault and ran into the same problems AvP did? Then again, if WotC/Hasbro KS'ed HeroScape, maybe we'd still be playing it today. At least they KS'ed HeroQuest.

Oh, wait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
weeble1000 wrote:
]Still, the KS market is pretty darn queered when it comes to startup TT miniatures companies that legitimately need the funds. You can't pull off an Area Rex or Blackwaer Gulch these days. Established businesses using KS as a marketing platform with the added bonus of no-strings financing have established consumer expectations that most small businesses are incapable of meeting without taking on a massive risk, which sort of defeats the purpose.


Generalize much?

But I'll agree with you. As long as KickStarter allows "big" companies to run projects, that's going to be how it turns out. And I'm fine with that. Nobody's stopping anyone from running a crowdfunding site that limits the size of its creators. But I don't believe that such a site will succeed as well as KS (nor does Steve Jackson, another established company). I think the reality is that people want stuff, not this "backing a dream" nonsense, at least to the tune of over $100 to a total and complete stranger. And, supposedly, it's these established businesses which draw in new backers, who then find the smaller ones to back. Just ask that James Mathe fellow.

And I won't agree with you. Plenty of small companies (in reality, *all* companies are KS are small -- Microsoft is a "big" company, IBM is a "big" company, Reaper is still not a "big" company!) deliver product despite delays, which, for *some* backers, meets "consumer expectations". Heck, it's not difficult to find a small company who didn't use KS and didn't meet "consumer expectations".

Helllooo Defiance!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There may be a point about Kickstarter that was missed. You shouldn’t be comparing projects to published games. You ought to compare projects to total games submitted to publishers, including those rejected.

The question really is – who should decide what gets published and what does not, the consumer or the publisher? In the traditional model, the designer submits his design to the publisher, who decides which ideas get developed and printed. Customers choose among those published, and never even know about the ones rejected.

In the Kickstarter model, the designer submits his design to the customer, who decides which ideas get published. A funded designer then uses the funds to hire out publishing/manufacture. Crowdfunding moves the manufacturer out from between the designer/artist and the customer and puts manufacture in a subordinate ‘for hire’ role.

Your point, then, is that customers do a poor job of choosing projects, and that the publisher/manufacturer has value added services, such as development and editing, that make games better. But I believe that customers will get better over time at choosing, and that saavy publishers will begin to offer their value added services a la carte to funded designers.


Just noticed this comment in a James Mathe's "KickStarter Best Practices" thread. Haven't had a closer look at it yet and I have not idea how to link to a FaceBook post so scroll down to Richard Bliss on 12/16: https://www.facebook.com/groups/KickstarterBestPractices/

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/22 22:40:56


Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in us
Snotty Snotling




Augusta, Michigan, USA

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Well, that was snobbish and not very enlightening. Saying "my KS succeeded because I'd done it before- other people are dumb," does not seem to really acknowledge that KS is largely a platform for people to get visibility or scales of projects they weren't able to otherwise. Of course there's a good chance they'll be inexperienced at something new, regardless of if they had experience in business in general or even a very similar field to what they kickstarted. For example, I've seen lots of boutique companies get larger games, and worked in a new material that they didn't have the budget to work with before.

Inexperience with something specific that one couldn't reasonably get experience with prior to a project is not, on its own, damning. Inexperience, combined with a lack of flexibility and professionalism, is damning, which is something that I have seen on KS projects, but a lack of flexibility and professionalism will wreck most ventures, experience or no.


You rattle on to the point your mouth needs to be oiled. I said right up front I was biased. I've got decades of experience that I'm sharing, take it or leave it. Professionalism has to do with running a tight campaign and not crying and whining when things go south.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dark Severance: In the end the consumer gets to decide, hence my reason for publishing an article on using your head as a crowdfunder to avoid pissing off the consumer in the first place.

On another note to everyone, I don't buy into the notion that KS is for the newcomers who has an idea and needs funding. Crowdfunding in general is simply a platform to raise money for an end product and most people feel betrayed when that end product does not materialize. Inexperience people trying to launch a project should spend more energy studying how to get the product to market rather than so much energy on simply raising funds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/23 01:09:12


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

ced1106 wrote:

But I'll agree with you. As long as KickStarter allows "big" companies to run projects, that's going to be how it turns out. And I'm fine with that. Nobody's stopping anyone from running a crowdfunding site that limits the size of its creators. But I don't believe that such a site will succeed as well as KS (nor does Steve Jackson, another established company). I think the reality is that people want stuff, not this "backing a dream" nonsense, at least to the tune of over $100 to a total and complete stranger. And, supposedly, it's these established businesses which draw in new backers, who then find the smaller ones to back. Just ask that James Mathe fellow.


Then buy it retail.

If you want something that will see the light of day via retail release, why give a company a strings-free gift to get it? You abandon all consumer protections, you have absolutely no guarantee of receiving anything, and you have absolutely no practical recourse. As many, many have experienced, the delivered 'product' can be substantially different than 'advertised', and it can take a year or more to receive it.

CMoN, for example, does not need Kickstarter. CMoN loves Kickstarter. And why not, when people are willing to pay up front for a product in a way that places no burdens whatsoever on the company? The idea that a company like CMoN is able to put more into a product because of Kickstarter is pure marketing schill.

The only conceivable way that would make sense is in terms of managing risk. You don't put something into a product because putting it in there would cost money, and the product might not sell according to your expectations. Ergo, lower investment equals lower risk. But do you honestly believe the carefully orchestrated ballet of stretch goals in a CMoN Kickstarter campaign was not pre-planned and pre-produced? You think CMoN takes a look at the funding trend and then dreams up new stretch goals? I certainly don't believe that.

And do you really believe that CMoN does not have a very good idea about the potential market for something like a Zombicide Season 4?

It isn't about "big" or "small." It is about established versus startup. We are not talking about pharmaceuticals that cost billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours to develop. We are talking about table top games. We are talking about products that people can, and do, design in their living rooms and manufacture in their garages. Plastic injection molding is expensive, but only comparatively so. So going straight to talking about how small the TTG industry is masks the reality that you don't have to be Microsoft to develop, manufacture, distribute and sell a TTG product on your own steam.

But you certainly have to have more than a few thousand in the bank, and that's where Kickstarter can help startups. But if in order to compete on Kickstarter a startup has to have a fully developed product with a deposit on a production run offered at a 20%-30% discount off of MSRP with free or reduced shipping (not including Kickstarter and Amazon's cut), the game is over before it begins because a startup can ill afford to absorb the costs of a mistake on such a razor thin margin, unlike an established company like CMoN.

That's how Kickstarter has been queered. Companies that can afford to sell direct via Kickstarter at rates they would normally get through a distributor, with cash reserves to help manage risk are establishing a set of consumer expectations that less established companies can ill afford to meet. Thus less established companies either can't make use of Kickstarter or face extreme risks and limitations in doing so.

And that is not a good thing. It is not good for the market in the long run, and it is not good for the consumer. It is a great thing for Kickstarter.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/23 02:47:41


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
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weeble1000 wrote:
Then buy it retail.


But it's cheaper on KS!

Free market. If this isn't "good for the consumer" then why are consumers attracted to it? Sure, part of it is are the exclusives, but creators offer low prices to consumers because the traditional distributor-retailer chain don't pass their discounts to the consumers. Save money. Take out the middleman.

I prefer retail as an *alternative* for us consumers, not the only choice. My post-Black Friday credit card balance will attest to that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Necros wrote:
Yep I started out that way, but I think the KS process has changed a lot. I admittedly didn't really know what I was doing when I first started out and back then, and also backers were more lenient. I think I was really lucky and I don't think i'd be successful today if I launched the same exact campaign as before with just a couple greens and some drawings.

I just meant nowadays it seems like you have to do more work before hand if you want to be successful, and I think that's a good thing.


Do you want me to put you in touch with Stonemaier Games or James Mathe? I regularly see "KickStarter Lessons" articles by them, but I think your writing a "Why I can't run my KS today the same way I did then" sorta article would be an interesting perspective!

Markets mature, KS doubly so. The projects are getting bigger, the presentations more professional, and the backers more demanding. Like eBay's insurance / protection, I think it'll only be a matter of time before KickStarter finds ways -- or is regulated -- to lower risk for backers. Perhaps by then, we'll have other forms of consumer-driven means of truly helping small companies, even ones who don't really know what they were doing!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/23 04:50:34


Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

 MegaMinis wrote:
You rattle on to the point your mouth needs to be oiled. I said right up front I was biased. I've got decades of experience that I'm sharing, take it or leave it. Professionalism has to do with running a tight campaign and not crying and whining when things go south.
You were the one who posted a bunch of criticism on a public forum. Grow thicker skin if your only response a critical response is petty insults. I hope you see the hypocrisy in dishing out criticism but not being able to take it.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Moved to Dakka Discussions.

Keep it polite, please.
   
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Ipswich, Australia

Sorry, didn't realise a mod had already addressed the immature shenanigans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/23 06:23:31


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Snotty Snotling




Augusta, Michigan, USA

Crowdfunding certainly is a hot topic no matter what side of the fence you stand on. My articles are not designed to discourage anyone from starting or buying into a crowdfunder, actually the opposite. You only get one shot entering the miniatures arena and if you aren't careful on how you design your crowdfunding project so that it makes it to the end customer, it's game over for you.

A large portion of the game industry as a whole has to sell on KS because that is where consumers are spending. I've talked to dozens of companies in the industry who have told me that after the KS is over, their newly created product does not sell wholesale or in their own online store. This is the new format in terms of marketing and sales which I will be covering in future articles.
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 MegaMinis wrote:
Crowdfunding certainly is a hot topic no matter what side of the fence you stand on. My articles are not designed to discourage anyone from starting or buying into a crowdfunder, actually the opposite. You only get one shot entering the miniatures arena and if you aren't careful on how you design your crowdfunding project so that it makes it to the end customer, it's game over for you.

A large portion of the game industry as a whole has to sell on KS because that is where consumers are spending. I've talked to dozens of companies in the industry who have told me that after the KS is over, their newly created product does not sell wholesale or in their own online store. This is the new format in terms of marketing and sales which I will be covering in future articles.


That's the most back-asswards nonsense I've ever heard. Consumers are spending on KS because that's where companies are offering the product at the best value, and their product doesn't sell wholesale or direct retail after the campaign because most people who wanted it and knew about it in advance got it during the KS, and non-direct retailers know that and aren't willing to stock something that will have to rely purely on "hmm, that looks cool, I'll give it a shot" customers.

It's emblematic of exactly the problem weeble was talking about; a few large(relatively) companies exploited the platform as a risk-free no-obligation preorder system, and because other companies chose to follow suit and hope they'd pull in megabucks rather than just setting an achievable goal with reasonable backer rewards and telling the freeloading discount-hounds to talk a long walk off a short pier, they've screwed themselves over. I have exactly zero sympathy for companies that follow the deep discount KS model and then whinge that they have to keep doing the same because their stuff doesn't sell outside KS - it's their own fault.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

ced1106 wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:
Then buy it retail.


But it's cheaper on KS!

Free market. If this isn't "good for the consumer" then why are consumers attracted to it? Sure, part of it is are the exclusives, but creators offer low prices to consumers because the traditional distributor-retailer chain don't pass their discounts to the consumers. Save money. Take out the middleman.

I prefer retail as an *alternative* for us consumers, not the only choice. My post-Black Friday credit card balance will attest to that!


It may be cheaper on Kickstarter, but there's absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything for your money. You are simply giving a gift out of the goodness of your heart with no expectation of a return. At best, you are a speculative investor whose only return is a discounted retail product.

I'm fine with products being cheaper, but I think the argument that it has to be on Kickstarter to be cheaper is ridiculous. It does not have to be on Kickstarter to be cheaper. If the company can afford to sell the product at the price offered on Kickstarter, it can afford to sell the product at that price via retail.

It is bad for the market in the long run because although Kickstarter has allowed lots of products to come to the market that would otherwise not exist, this benefit is shrinking because of the way Kickstarter has been used by established companies that do not need crowdfunding to bring a product to market. That is bad for the consumer in that the market will be less diverse than it otherwise might be. But Kickstarter is terrible for consumers because you aren't purchasing a product, you are giving a gift and hoping to get something in return. Plenty of 'customers' have been dissatisfied with what they have received via TTG Kickstarter projects because they were treating it like a retail purchase.

The way companies like CMoN treat Kickstarter campaigns encourages backers to treat pledges like a retail purchase.

Ultimately, it is we, the consumers, who dictate what crowdfunding platforms like Kickstarter mean to the industry. I can't say that Kickstarter isn't an awesome marketing platform, and I can't say that it isn't a terribly attractive way to sell products for companies with the proper cash position. Hell, why not use Kickstarter if people are willing to give you an obligation-free gift? Think about it. There's no returns, no replacements, no substitutions, no customer service, no legal obligations... And so established companies are working very hard to convince consumers that Kickstarter is A) normal and B) the only place to get products. Companies like CMoN want you to be spending money on Kickstarter, and they spend a lot of time and money convincing you to do so.

TLDR: Kickstarter is great, but its greatest benefits for the TTG market are slowly being eroded because the website is being coopted as a marketing platform by established companies that do not need crowdfunding.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/23 13:41:55


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
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. If the company can afford to sell the product at the price offered on Kickstarter, it can afford to sell the product at that price via retail.


I'd strongly disagree on that one,

some companies might well be able to do so (if they've got a decent turnover and/or only sell direct)

but genuine start ups with little or no money probably can't simply because if they would not last long enough to pick up all the cash over a year or two that a KS can get them in 4-6 weeks. Once you KNOW the money is there taking out a short term loan (or even spending on your CC is fine), you pay it off before the interest kills you, not possible otherwise

I'd also say project intended for distribution (rather than the company selling direct) might also be unable to sell via retail at that price (they can give the consumer on KS the margin normally taken by the distributor). Less certain as a marginal product won't get distribution after a KS, but a really good one would (look at the numbers deadzone/mars attacks/zombicide have sold after a big KS)

 
   
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But what, exactly, does "need" mean? If it's to put out a product, no companies "need" crowdfunding. I mean, without KS, un-"established" companies and "established" companies will still put out product on eBay, Etsy, and other internet sites. And what if CMON created its own crowdfunding site for, say, miniature games? Certainly if Palladium and Plaid Hat can run their own crowdfunding campaigns, CMON could certainly do this. Do we tell them they cannot run their own crowdfunding site because they are an "established" company?

Without crowdfunding, we wouldn't have these humongous campaigns that let consumers make the *choice* of buying much more content than had crowdfunding not been around. We don't really "need" 150 plastic zombies, but since when is the hobby market "need" more than "want"?

As for the market being less diverse, show me your research. Gamer Richard Bliss, in fact, is lamenting the opposite:

" Well, as part of the article that was never written, I did a little thing called research. Having 154 active games on Kickstarter blows my mind because that’s almost as many games as Fantasy Flight has put out since 1995, which as of over the summer some time when I did this research was 177. That number, of course, is not counting the bagillion single-card expansions they have released as individual things; that makes the number jump to 307. 154 is also roughly half the 327 games Rio Grande Games has published since its start in 1998. Mayfair has 191. Queen, 107. Z-Man, 201.

In case you were unaware, Kickstarter launched in 2009. In one funding month of this year, there are as many projects as some established publishers have put out in two decades. There have been 5428 total board game projects on Kickstarter of which 2677 have been successful."

http://whoseturnisitanyway.com/kickstarter-killed-the-board-game-star/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So here's a question. How many "established" companies use IndieGoGo? Because if KS is where the established companies fund projects, IGG should be where small ones go to, right?

I recently ran an IndieGoGo campaign for the first time and I was very disappointed. I run Minion Games, a proven company with 7 Kickstarter campaigns under our belt and several more from my other company Kickin’ It Games. I like to think I know what I’m doing. I’d like to think that my customers would follow us wherever we go. I was wrong…

I ran two more or less identical campaigns on IndieGoGo and Kickstarter within a month of each other. I performed the same amount of marketing for both campaigns. I reached out to my network of customers and followers for both campaigns. I did very little different between both campaigns. What did we find? Well IndieGoGo campaign made about $2000 and Kickstarter made that in the first day and it’s now nearly $10,000 in 2 days.


http://www.jamesmathe.com/indie-no-go/

Okay, now what? I'm reading that you don't want "established" companies to use crowdfunding at all. So, basically, you now want to make our gaming choices for us. Y'know, like how the publisher decides what games are profitable enough for them to publish. Then the distributors decide what games are profitable for them. Then the retailers decide what games are profitable for them. Our choices are what's left.

Oh, and thanks to your policy of no established companies using crowdfunding, you'd be essentially strangling Reaper Miniature's inexpensive plastic line. I don't want that.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-an-evolution-of-gaming-min

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/23 20:18:53


Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
. If the company can afford to sell the product at the price offered on Kickstarter, it can afford to sell the product at that price via retail.


I'd strongly disagree on that one,

some companies might well be able to do so (if they've got a decent turnover and/or only sell direct)

but genuine start ups with little or no money probably can't simply because if they would not last long enough to pick up all the cash over a year or two that a KS can get them in 4-6 weeks. Once you KNOW the money is there taking out a short term loan (or even spending on your CC is fine), you pay it off before the interest kills you, not possible otherwise

I'd also say project intended for distribution (rather than the company selling direct) might also be unable to sell via retail at that price (they can give the consumer on KS the margin normally taken by the distributor). Less certain as a marginal product won't get distribution after a KS, but a really good one would (look at the numbers deadzone/mars attacks/zombicide have sold after a big KS)


I was referring to established companies, but even so, I will have to disagree with you Orlando. If the company intends to sell via distributors, that's the company's decision, but if a company can take what are essentially direct orders via Kickstarter and deliver those orders to individual backers, then the company has the capacity to retail directly to consumers. Anything you'd need that Kickstarter otherwise provides can be done with off the shelf products. And that's doubly true for mature companies that already sell directly.

I don't buy that a product intended for wholesale to distributors requires Kickstarter to suddenly provide increased value. The production costs are what they are. Kickstarter does not magically make things cheaper to manufacture. A company can release a limited edition set as a promotion, or sell directly at a discount. You don't need Kickstarter to be able to offer more savings/better value. That's simply marketing schill used to justify running a Kickstarter project.

My point is about need versus want. There are lots of companies using Kickstarter because they want to, not because they need to. Those companies spend a whole lot of time and effort attempting to convince consumers that purchasing through Kickstarter is an awesome idea. They do this because they want to use Kickstarter, because the platform offers lots of attractive benefits to the project creator at the expense of the backer.

So companies work to entice customers into purchasing through Kickstarter campaigns. They offer steep discounts, even specifically advertising the discount over MSRP. They offer Kickstarter exclusive content. They shove more content into the product. All to get customers to pay up front in a way that places no obligations on the seller. Sometimes the schill is easier to spot, such as with Shadows of Brimstone.

In any case, this makes Kickstarter a volatile place for companies and individuals that need Kickstarter in order to get a product on the market, or at the very least those whose needs are far greater. These are folks who don't have established relationships with manufacturers, suppliers, and distributors; who don't have an established customer base; who don't have years of sales data to analyze.

Going into Kickstarter is like walking into the lion's den. The game has rules that have been established by companies that have manipulated the system for their own benefit. What happens when a company offers a product at a discount that will work with X unit sales that does not get enough backers to pay for said number of units, but whose campaign has funded? Oh, well the idiots should have done their maths better, right?

But what if the only other options were to have a 50K initial funding goal or not offer a discount? Hasn't doing either of those things helped to kill Kickstarter campaigns because it runs against established expectations? You've got to decide whether and to what degree you are going to try to meet those expectations before launching a project. That's a lot of risk to take on, especially if you have invested in product development but can't afford to pay for a production run if the project fails to fund.

Companies that legitimately need Kickstarter wind up getting compared to companies with far greater cash positions. You wind up having to put an incomplete product into competition with completed products ready for manufacture and distribution. Sure, it is a free market and all that, but this means that we, as consumers, ultimately decide how Kickstarter gets used. Companies like CMoN are spending a lot of effort to convince us that Kickstarter is a wonderful pre-order system where companies magically get the unique ability to offer steep discounts and free content.

That's not how I want to see Kickstarter used because I'm going to see Rum and Bones on the shelf regardless of whether the Kickstarter funds. I might not ever see the products offered by companies that can't put a product on the market without crowdfunding. And I'll never see the products of folks who would love to put a new game out into the world, but aren't willing to take the risk (?) of running a Kickstarter campaign.

Isn't crowdfunding supposed to mitigate risks? Isn't that why I am giving strings-free gifts to companies running a crowdfunding campaign? Why should I be mitigating the risks of a company that is mature enough to deal with them on its own?

Because I get a discount? Because I get exclusive content? Shouldn't I be able to get that kind of content and that kind of value without being forced to make a large, up-front impulse payment, without losing all of my rights as a consumer? What does it say about a company so confident in its product that it has to manipulate me into buying it before I get a chance to see what it really is? These big KS campaigns are hard sell marketing schills, pure and simple.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
ced1106 wrote:
But what, exactly, does "need" mean? If it's to put out a product, no companies "need" crowdfunding.


Do you know what it costs to have a game box printed? Do you know what it costs to hire a sculptor? Do you know what it costs to print blue core cards with a matte linen finish? Do you know what it costs to pay for content editing, graphic design, or language translation?

Let's say that you have an awesome idea for a board game and you want to start a company, develop the game professionally, and manufacture it. How much money do you need? Is 5K enough? is 10K enough? What about 20K or 30K? How much money do you need?

Do you have that much money in your bank account? Can you get a bank to give you a loan? Can you pay for it all on credit cards?

Maybe. But the great thing about crowdfunding is that it allows people with an idea to get connected with the people who want to see that idea made into a reality, and who are willing to donate their own money to help make it happen.

Do you think Rum and Bones, for example, would not be released if the project did not fund? Do you think that with the amount of money that has already been put into the product CMoN would not release it without a successful Kickstarter project? If the answer is 'no, obviously it would get released anyway', then it doesn't need a Kickstarter.

I never said that the market is not more diverse today than it was in 2009. I never said that Kickstarter hasn't been a great thing for the industry. What I am saying is that the way that mature companies are using Kickstarter and the way that they are marketing Kickstater is having a chilling effect on prospective project creators. I know lots or creators that have had successful campaigns who loathed the Kickstarter experience, largely because of the way that the big, blockbuster TTG Kickstarters have conditioned the customer base. I have seen projects fail to deliver, or deliver unsatisfactorily because they have been framed on a model that is only financially viable for a company with the cash reserves to mitigate risk.

And people like you are proselytizing that we should be happy that so much of the market has transitioned to Kickstarter, that companies feel they need to use Kickstarter in order to remain viable, that companies have fallen into the trap of having to repeatedly run Kickstarter campaigns in order to remain solvent. That's terrible. It is terrible for customers and it is bad for the market.

TLDR: All I am saying is that we should endeavor to be brutally frank about what Kickstarter is and why it is being used, because lord knows CMoN is not going to tell it to you straight.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2014/12/23 22:48:56


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






weeble1000 wrote:
But the great thing about crowdfunding is that it allows people with an idea to get connected with the people who want to see that idea made into a reality, and who are willing to donate their own money to help make it happen.


Okay, but how about you let *me* make that decision?

Is it okay for me to choose which ideas get made into reality? What if this idea *doesn't* mesh with *your* ideas? Why can't I support a project that gives me tons of zombies or other miniatures at a low price? Because without crowdfunding, the traditional retail-distributor model will take out a chunk of money that does not go to the publisher -- which also means that he will not be able to create more games.

Here's a quote from Seth Hyatt of Mayday games on the FB Best Practices group:

If KS died tomorrow we would survive, we just wouldn't release games as quickly. KS allows us to collect money at higher margins than distributors will pay and all in advance so we can cover the costs to make the product, that is the why.


And where's your supporting evidence and comments from creators? All you're doing is finger-pointing at CMON. Contribute your $1 and comment on Rum and Bones to get your point across.

Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
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Melbourne .au

weeble1000 wrote:


It may be cheaper on Kickstarter, but there's absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything for your money. You are simply giving a gift out of the goodness of your heart with no expectation of a return. At best, you are a speculative investor whose only return is a discounted retail product.




Wrong on both counts. You seem to be going almost along the lines of "Kickstarter is meant for" argument.

When dealing with smaller companies the former is true, but when dealing with larger more established companies like Mantic, CMoN, Reaper, et al, then if they were to not deliver on the goods, then it'll signal the beginning of the end of their business.

On the latter - No expectation of a return? Ridiculous. I don't believe that anyone here has been pledging for (gaming, at least) KS with no expectation of a return. Well, except you perhaps. When the latest Mantic or CMoN pre-order campaign rolls along, no-one is pledging out of the goodness of their hearts with no expectation of a return. You might be trying to quote the T&C off the KS webpage, but no-one, including the project creators believes that, and trying to pretend that there's no real-world expectation is simply foolish.

   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Azazelx wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:


It may be cheaper on Kickstarter, but there's absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything for your money. You are simply giving a gift out of the goodness of your heart with no expectation of a return. At best, you are a speculative investor whose only return is a discounted retail product.




Wrong on both counts. You seem to be going almost along the lines of "Kickstarter is meant for" argument.

When dealing with smaller companies the former is true, but when dealing with larger more established companies like Mantic, CMoN, Reaper, et al, then if they were to not deliver on the goods, then it'll signal the beginning of the end of their business.

On the latter - No expectation of a return? Ridiculous. I don't believe that anyone here has been pledging for (gaming, at least) KS with no expectation of a return. Well, except you perhaps. When the latest Mantic or CMoN pre-order campaign rolls along, no-one is pledging out of the goodness of their hearts with no expectation of a return. You might be trying to quote the T&C off the KS webpage, but no-one, including the project creators believes that, and trying to pretend that there's no real-world expectation is simply foolish.


You can have all the "real-world expectation" you want - when you buy a product from a company you have rights, when you pledge to a KS campaign you have virtually no rights, exactly because you are not buying a product from a company, you are giving a company money and they have promised - with no legal obligation to fulfill that promise - to give you something in return(providing it funds, providing they don't run into any funding problems or other issues, providing they don't get screwed themselves by a supplier or contractor, etc etc etc).

The stuff you're trying to use to disprove weeble's point is exactly the kind of stuff weeble has been talking about; larger companies that don't actually need to crowdfund a project to bring it to market have created the expectation that KS is a guaranteed something for something preorder system, but it is not and never has been, and the fact these companies have created that expectation is exactly what's causing problems for smaller outfits that actually need crowdfunding to develop and release their idea.

Hey, whatever, if you prefer the idea of a few established companies running endless overlapping KS campaigns so you can get their stuff at a discount because you can afford to continually blow ludicrous sums of money on "sweet spot" pledges, that's great. For you. Kind of sucks for the people with great ideas that would have enriched TTG overall, or for people who can't afford to stay on the sweet-spot treadmill, but as long as the specific subset of the community that likes spending large sums of money on a system that voids their consumer rights are happy that's all that matters hey?

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